The TRUTH about 32 BIT FLOAT for audio recording- Really useful or marketing hype?
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
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32 bit float is used more and more as a format to record audio in. This tech is often synonymous with audio devices that are not able to clip anymore. But is 32 bit float really better than conventional 24 and 16 bit integer formats? That’s what I’m going to explain in this video.
00:00 Intro
00:36 Real world differences
02:41 It’s all about Dynamic Range
04:26 The confusion
05:59 Multi ADC solution
06:37 24 bit - good enough?
07:59 Benefit of 32 bit float
08:56 Conclusion
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Julian has a great way of breaking down a complex subject that makes it easier to understand. While also retaining the relevant details one should be considering.
Sehr gerne, Julian. Gute Arbeit!
For perspective, a freshly aligned 24 track 2” machine with Ampex 996 is around 11-12 bits of dynamic range.
Started seeing 4th-Gen Focusrite Scarlett reviews popping up on RUclips... But i'm personally holding out for Julian Krause's review, & ONLY Julian Krause's review! 😁
Nice coverage, Julian, very well explained. 32-bit float is useful if you wish to push decision-making and work to post production, assuming that your microphone can handle the SPLs you record. I'm with you, 32-bit float is very rarely useful for my work. In fact, if I'm using a channel strip or interface or recorder with a compressor, I can get closer to where I want my final audio to sit with 24-bit and save myself some work in post.
Always set my DAW to 32bit float & never have to think about it. Storage is so inexpensive nowadays. Great video!
Julian, you are the no nonsense, straight up facts & figures guy with the penchant for explaining concepts so nicely !! Kudos man..i always look for your reviews on a unit to actually gauge a product !!
Keep being awesome 😎
Extremely informative. Great video!
bro, imagine a camera operator with a lot of stuffs to control, snario, direction photography, actors/models, and still have to think about the audio, I dont want to check if the file on the set if going well, I just want get the audio and make it works on the pos production, so, it's a game changer for run & gunprofessionals for sure
Excellent explanation! Extremely helpful video!
I use a Zoom F3 all the time for video production. The part where you don't have to make a critical decision about levels until post is a game changer for me. The shots I do are improvised one takes and I don't have the ability to manage levels while I'm rolling. There is just too much going on to get levels right without leaving excessive amounts of headroom. Knowing I am going to get clean audio without having to set the gain just right is fantastic.
Granted you have a great experience with Zoom F3 that's great. But there are three things to notice.
1, Everything you have experienced can be done in 24bit. It's the technique that combines two(or more) ADCs' signal makes the difference.
2, The technique itself is not magic either, it's not necessarily different from using two input channels, one at lowest gain, one at 30db or max gain and choose the proper one for proper sections after the recording.
3, It's also similar to have a limited gain settings. 2 adc solution is essentially the same as having on 2 gain settings which means if you record at just over the threshold of the higher gain setting (low noise setting) you would have pretty bad noise performance. Although it's combining two adc signals is better than what I just described. It benefits a lot from using more ADCs, so better solutions use 4 5 or more adcs to accomplish a excellent result. That adds to the cost and price. So you probably would get away with getting a better adc and set the gain conservatively or use two adcs for two tracks with different gains. Also still not outside the capabilities of 24bit format.
@@johnyang799 ti feels kinda pedantic to describe everything as "yeah you could do it even with a rock" -that's basically the feeling it gives- when the person above is clearly saying that the flexibility of having 32 bit is what makes a game changer. what makes you think that they do not adjust the best as possible the gains and everything? the relief is that when you are field recording, or just recording for videos outside or just post production you are just running (and how we say it out here, everything is for yesterday), and you can miss easily a little bit of headroom. it happens even to the best. so, just knowing that even if you didn't manage to get those 3 or 6 db of headroom that you are missing because you couldn't do a proper gain staging and would have been really nice to have now is finally a thing, wouldn't you be happy for that?.
sometimes we need to humble ourselves. not everyone can afford the expensive equipment, more if you are just starting. you wouldn't recommend to someone that lives with their parents to buy a neve console right?, that's my problem with your comment. lol.
I think this sort of live production scenario is really the primary reason for 32 bit to exist. It makes a ton of sense on field recorders, but it really is not that useful (except as a bit of idiot proofing) on interfaces for home/studio recording where you can prep everything and leave yourself plenty of headroom. Maybe it's useful for streamers who get a little too excited sometimes, but then again, I think some of them like the "aesthetic" of having things clip when they get too loud, so whatever.
@@nickglover In realistic sense unless you don't want to compress the signal in anyway, a compressor or an AGC(automatic gain control) circuit would work just fine.
Typically I don't think people do want to do that, especially for, say, a movie. You can't undo compression that's baked into the file, so you don't want anything affecting it. Similarly, you can't get an actor to perfectly redo that one perfect take that you messed up because it clipped a bit, but if you have 32 bits, you won't run into that problem.
Hey Julian, I just wanted to let you know that I really really appreciate your videos! You are very knowledgeable and the format you make your videos makes it easy to find the information I'm looking for. I spent days looking all over RUclips and the internet to decide on what mic, interface and fethead. Your videos as well as others from creators like podcastage really made my life easier. I was able to see comparisons with real life scenarios and technical data that helped me make a choice. I personally chose the rode podmic, the motu m2 interface and a Triton audio fethead for my "" budget"" recording set up. This ended up being an extremely good combination and with a little bit of EQ I was almost ready. Now I'm picky and need the AC on when recording so sound treatment is necessary. I am setting up a ""studio"" using moving blankets from harbor freight and a garage hanging storage rack from Amazon to have extra storage in my room as well as something to hang the blankets from over my gaming setup. My room is upstairs in a attic like space that has short knee walls so it's a difficult space to use but it's all I got 😅. Anyways thanks again for all the hard work!
Great explanation. Thank you!
A great explanation of the differences between/advantages of 24bit vs 32bit recording. I just got my first 32-bit float capable recorder. My reason is that as a solo performer, when I'm recording my gigs, I have to put the recorder out front, set the level, and hope for the best that I don't overload the signal. I've had some potentially great recordings ruined by clipping because things got too hot for the actual recorder. With 32-bit float, I still try to set things as best as possible, but I have the sort of added insurance that I won't clip the recording. But I agree that it's not a magic bullit, as you can still clip the signal before it gets to the recorder. Good recording technique is still needed.
well explained, thanks!
Great video and explanation!!
Great video has always!
Thank you for your presentation and explanation.
great information I think I will subscribe 🙂
Great videos, they have helped me make wiser purchases!
Thanks for the support Joe, glad the videos help you out :)
@@JulianKrause Just ordered a MOTU Ultralight to replace my redundant RME Fireface. Your video gave me confidence that it does everything I need!
Great explanation. Makes sense
Excellent discussion!
I use an F6 and an F3 and the convenience is fantastic! That said - I learned about 32 bit float recording's limitations the hard way. I was working with a microphone that had a max SPL of 110 (cough cough Videomic Go 2). No matter what happened, whether I used the Zoom F3, Zoom F6 or Zoom F2, the audio would distort when I got really really really loud. On the meter it showed normally but the audio was distorted. (For those wondering it wasn't a DAW issue, it's an SPL thing). You are limited to the SPL of the microphone. This also explains the few times I actually managed to clip even on an F6 with a Neat King Bee version 1. A lot of the marketing around 32 bit float recorders is a bit hogwash :P You'll often see the ever-popular diagram of the 24 bit graph with a small tiny little grey arrow that goes upward and the 32 bit float recording diagram with a grey arrow up to 600 DB. First off, you'd literally die if you recorded at 600 DB :P. Second of all, most mics are capped off at around 145 DB SPL so regardless of how awesome 32 bit float recorders are - you are capped off at the max SPL of the mic. That being said, what I can say - and Julian touched on this - is convenience. With a 32 bit float recorder I can do things 4-5 times faster than before. YOU SKIP STEPS. I no longer have to do things anymore. It's easy. No more fiddling with things. No more hiss-penalty, no clip-penalty, it's like the cheat-code in audio. No quarters needed, just infinite lives.
You are right about SPL of the Mic being a limiting factor, but about 32bit float Mic, a USB one, like Rode NT1 5th gen? With this mic you are not capped, right?
@@diktor_ilyakhaiko The 5th Gen NT1 has a max SPL of 142 DB. In other words, it's not as high as stated. That said - no one really gets that loud. But even 24 bit caps at around 144 DB. You'll clip out the mic before even touching the capability of 32 bit float. That said, in like 99% of cases you won't clip the mic as 142 DB is quite loud.
@@Dracomies I see, it is just physics, yeah? If you want to have more SPL, you must do something specific with a capsule, right? And not just add digital 32 bit float function.
I thought 5th gen has 142 dB SPL as a XLR mic, but as USB it has more, like 32 bit.
Yeah, that mic is pretty limited. If you go with the VideoMic Pro it at least gives you three different options for gain, -10dB, 0dB, and +20dB. That can come in very handy depending on the environment in which you're recording.
Assumptions are being made here that are not correct. You say “no longer have to do things. SKIP STEPS. No more hiss penalty. No more clip penalty.” That is for most situations completely incorrect. You still have to fit the microphone’s analog input signal into a window the bottom of which is the electronic noise floor of that microphone and top of which is distortion generated by that same microphone. If you don’t, you will get a digital signal with infinite range playing back the same hiss and distortion you fed it. This is not cheat-code. It is not magic.
Thanks, this was very useful.
The very first video about 32Bit float i can fully agree with! And yet simple and short!
Yeah
Awesome content!
Very good explanation Julian, I think 32 bit float will come in handy in converters/interfaces for people using consoles and hardware which can exceed the clipping point in a DAW or driving them hard without needing to use an pad adapter on the direct outs which can lower impedance and muck up the transients. It's also great for less experienced engineers recording drums or recording live shows where volume can get way too high. Cheers!!!
Thank you so much. it helps me to make decision!
thank you 👍
Thank you for calmly explaining what I've been screaming about in comment sections for years.
Great video!
Thank you for your report, this brings to a more understandable and clear concept of the discussion or audio marketing politics. Danke, Julian.
Julian ist das, was RUclips für den Recordingbereich unbedingt braucht. Vielen lieben Dank
Well explained. I do live multi-channel capture recordings, while I rarely have any quality problems with 24 bit recordings an interface that had 32 bit float preamps would have advantages.
nicely done
I feel like the best use case scenario for 32 Bit Float is field recordings in compromised situations. Run and gun or novice setups. Using it for mobile video production is kind of a game changer.
Thanks Julian, long live and prosper. 🖖
I just ordered a zoom r4. Im super excited
When everything was 16 bit, gain settings were crucial because of the dynamic range limit. With 24 bit it was widened. The remaining problem with 24 bit was that if you recorded a low signal, you may have to boost the gain digitally in post (say, if it's a single source like a voice). Boosting or normalizing brings with it the inherent noise in the signal. So it's not that input gain level doesn't matter in 24 bit. You still want to capture a signal as strong as you can get while maintaining plenty of headroom for clipping. With 32 bit, this problem seems to be eliminated.
So, if you have a 32 bit device, record a very low signal, than boost it in post, the noise won't be boosting too? I don't see how is that possible)
@@diktor_ilyakhaiko
As far I know many if not most 32 bit devices have fixed gain and input sensitivity anyway.
What one is changing with the knob, especially in ones that have dual DACs (this 32bit float), is simply the structure of the file.
And how can it record low signal without noise? Well the more bits You have the more of them are usable aka not post to noise. And simply the amount of possible values is waaaay greater.
24 bit is 16 777 216 possibilities
32 bit is 4 294 967 296 possibilities
You can fit entire 24 bit range 256 times inside of 32 bit range. Just think about it, even if You have 100 gain/volume settings on 24bit ADC that still less than how many times 32 bit can overshadow it.
You are simply superb brother
Interesting reading the comments after they all saw the same thing so well explained, yet many still misunderstand. I doubt we'll ever really get this across, but you tried. Great work Julian!!
Hi, Julian, I`ve seen a few of your videos about interfaces, can you pls advise me, do I need to change NI KA6 mk1 interface? Are modern interfaces of the same level better in preamp and AD/DA quality?
New focusrite 4th gen Scarlett’s out, looking forward for review
brilliant explanation
Thanks. I’ve been deciding between the SSL 12 and Motu M6 interfaces. I’ve decided on the Motu, but I had an unresolved question about whether I was giving up an “advantage” offered by the SSL: 32-bit float. Now I feel better about my decision.
Thanks!
Thanks Julian. I think the convenience is good for me as an amateur producer honing my tracking skills. Using Cubase in 32float recently was fun. I felt/held the full signal and used the 'clip gain' feature to easily eliminate the clipped sound. Previously, I would have had to re- record. I agree its not a need but a huge WANT.
On my Daw I record 24bit 48.1 Hz but when I record chamber Orchestra and small acoustic outfits live. I use a Roland VS 100 that records 32bit FP 96k to SDHC format via 2 microphones Recording in stereo. I never clip But I still have to go through with spectral layers or RX 10 and remove Audience cell phones Ringers etc. Thank you for the video with explanation
cheers
Hi Julian, Thank you for your great videos. Between the solid-state logic SSL 12 and the Motu Ultralite mk5, which one should I buy if my primary use case is recording with the Shure Sm7B? Can you suggest the best audio interfaces under $700 for the SM7B?
I think 32-bit might as well be, now that it's available, a must-have feature for a field recorder, as used for example in journalistic capacity. When you may be recording something that happens exactly once and that you won't be able to re-record. So not having the ability to screw up the gain setting during capture, with gain being done exclusively in post production, is one substantial fewer thing that could possibly go wrong.
On the other hand, i don't think it's necessarily a desirable feature for a computer audio interface.
Hi Julian, i guess the more polemic topic in whole music gear world is if you really **need** a dedicated preamp or not, how different they are from the ones that comes in sound interfaces. Thanks for all the knowledge
A very good and voodoo-free explanation as usual. What could have been stressed out in this video though is that actually also integer based 24 bit PCM is some kind of "convenience" to some extend when it comes to pure recording and playback / distribution as here, the SNR of linear 16 bit PCM is already extremely high and virtually never utilized. Further processing approaches excluded of course.
It would be nice to see another "unagitated" video about the floating point format itself and the - as far as I understand it - inherent decoupling of signal to noise ratio and dynamic range which usually go hand in hand with linearily used integer variants.
Been following your videos for a long time and i just want to say you're the best.
Also i wanted to know of the possibility of doing a video of interfaces with great RTL times
Julian you are amazing man :)
Masterclass, thanks
I feel like the most useful place for 32bit float is in recorders and run and gun situations. One man crews for instance. Where you might not always have the ability to control levels in real time and have to set-and-forget. Or in situations where there's big differences in levels (think of meeting or whatever with speakers at all sorts of different levels) where you want to normalize the levels.
perfectly summed up thx!
i've seen a few videos on it here on yt and some guys somehow seemingly misinterprete 32bitfloat.
the convenience, as you're calling it, is simply a benefit that's worth something, at least for me.
it's probably not a revolution for recording in general, but at least i won't need to level and set up a limiter, plus i can maintain the otherwise clipped signal, it's simply one less thing to keep in mind.
i guess there are also still a few recording enthusiasts around, who overestimate the importance for the high art of levelling an audiosignal a little bit, over what they actually record...
anyway, greets from outer space!
audio restoration for example from vinyl records, reel to reel tapes (multitrack/stereo masters), shellacs, etc. special cases, of course..
👍
Question no one has answered for me yet. On windows in the bottom right sound properties next to clock there is a tab called recording. If I right click my mixer in there hit properties there is a recording level setting. Should I ever touch this?
Reason: If I set my gain on mixer just right where the clip light rarely comes on and keep my mixer volume at +-0 but not adjust system recording level. Then I end up with extremely loud clipping audio. So I have nice clean audio going into computer (monitoring with headphone) but unless I lower one of the following I have issues. Gain/Mixer volume slider/system recording level. Which is better to lower or am I doing something completely wrong?
It’s worth remembering that 24-bit integer precision gives you over 16 million (2²⁴=16,777,216) possible amplitude levels for every sample. That’s a heap of resolution, and as others have commented, you’ll be limited in practice by other things, such as the noise floor of the source and the analog front-end. Setting input levels is fairly uncritical when you have 24 bits of precision to play with: you can be pretty conservative (leaving plenty of headroom to avoid clipping) with negligible effect on the digital noise floor. One should be more worried about the analog noise going into the converters.
As you say, using 32-bit float makes it wonderfully easy to process a signal. There’s an exact mapping from every signed 24-bit integer value to its corresponding 32-bit float-it’s a lossless conversion-and once you have the float, you can scale it up and down wildly without clipping, so it’s great for DSP (though you can lose precision).
So, floating-point is great to have “in the box”, but hardly necessary for capture.
There's another little detail that is not known by most audio people (but very well known by electronic engineers and the like), and that is the limit of thermal noise, or Johnson-Nyquist noise.
Audio devices will output at most, let's say, 10V (usually a lot less, more like 2.5v), so that's our 0dBfs, the maximum value we can ever get. At room temperature, the thermal noise for human hearing range bandwidth is about -140dB at most, being quite generous. No matter how perfect and quiet your setup is, the electrons themselves shaking inside your electronic circuits will make MORE noise than the resolution 24bit provides for you. Even in scientific applications, 24dB is more than enough almost all of the time. Even theoretically, you CAN'T EVEN USE the whole 24bits, there's at least 1 or 2 bits of extra headroom.
As further clarification: I'm not considering cryogenic measurement equipment, nor devices specifically created to measure abnormally loud sounds, like field explosions. Those will usually have either measures to reduce thermal nosie, or output way over 10V, or other special measures that most humans haven't even heard about.
Getting to the limits of 24 bits is not as outrageously difficult as you might think. There are various commercial headphone amplifiers posting DR in the 140s of dB these days. The practical limit is about 152 dB at unity gain, though obviously a unity gain amplifier is not the most useful thing in the world. That would be a maximum amplitude of 9 Vrms (a typical value on +/-15 V) vs. an input noise density of 1.6 nV/√(Hz). If you insisted you could squeeze out another 6-10 dB on the bottom end for sure.
The limiting factor is converter analog stages, which at best have a +5 V supply available, often less, and being CMOS parts don't sport voltage noise as low as bipolar circuitry would allow. Commercial audio DACs will just about make it to 140 dB with all 8 channels in parallel, and their ADC cousins top out around 130 dB.
The combination of both should illustrate why variable input and output gain as well as hybrid ADC concepts are useful to have. Since instantaneous dynamic range comes with a cost in power consumption, modern DACs more on the mobile side of things are pulling some tricks like DRE (automatic output gain switching) or even Class-G (various steps of output stage power supply voltage chosen depending on signal) as well.
For just one example, there's the Topping L50, posting a 145 dB(A) spec. And that seems to be actual instantaneous DR, as the difference between noise floor and maximum output level at low/mid gains actually comes out to over 152 dB(A). Of course nobody needs that much audio DR all at once, it's more a thing of providing ample DR across a wide range of headphone sensitivities, from BA IEMs to HE-6s (a range approaching 40 dB).
the thing is the actual dynamic range of 24 bit or 32 bit float is only 120 dB. Lower than that is phase noise, or simply said intermodulation distortion due to discretization. With test signals it's rather dynamic, but never with complex signal.
The point is not to just record with great dynamic range and resolution. The point is to be able to do a lot of processing without accumulating errors from such sources as round off, overflow during multiplications, etc.
For the end product you convert the audio file to 44.1 kHz 16bit 256 kbps AAC or OPUS (← 48 bit).
The very little quality loss is worth the tremendous amount of saved space.
But it's always convenient to keep lossless high quality audio as a source file for editing purposes.
Hello Julian! I'm currently trying to use my Zoom F3 as 32 bit audio interface, but audition is still clipping my recording on 0db. I downloaded specific driver from zoom website, updated firmware on the recorder which is adding 32 bit AI mode, chose ASIO in audition, but it didn't help.
I think 32 bit float is extremely useful for a personal recorder like my Zoom F2, when you need to set up a lapel mic on someone and you have no idea what the sound levels will be.
Agreed. I have 32bit float on my Tentacle Track E bodypack recorder, and also on my Sound Devices MixPre 6II recorder. While I always do a sound check... it's nice to know that I am somewhat protected from clipping if the subject gets too loud. I often hook my MixPre recorder to a sound board backstage at an event, while I'm in the audience shooting video. Therefore I'm not able to monitor the audio. But the files I record can be adjusted later in post if things are too loud or too soft. It's a nice safety-net for us one-man-band shooters. 😎
That's what mic checks are for.
for live concerts and events having 32bit and device that actually can capture like a dual amp would benefit so much
The whole issue really comes down to the microphone. Barely any microphones has the dynamic-range capture capabilities of 16 bit, before the mic will distort/clip the signal. maximum SPL is often combined with the pad, and you have to deduct the self noise as well, so if the gain is set correctly, the dynamic range that the mic is capable of, is typically less than the 96dB of 16 bit, that the maximum loudness is higher than the dynamic range doesn't matter, since you will only capture sounds starting that the lowest possible sound the mic can capture, and that has to be louder when the pad is active. So in most cases 16 bit is enough, with the right gain, since the mic will be the limiting factor. But then you have 24 bit, that I think surpasses the dynamic range of pretty much any microphone, if the A/D converter can even handle that range. So at the end of the day, what you end up with, is at best some very specific situations where 32 bit recorders will be able to rescue really quiet sounds if the gain was set slightly wrong for 24 bit in combination with that mic. But then you will have quiet sound near the noise of the mic, pre-amp and possibly the A/D converter so you can't simply boost it in the way it may look like in the example earlier in this video, as in that case it will not be a clean signal. It will be a waveform barely distinguishable from the noise recorded. You will not be able to really save the recording, for anything but scientific use.
And you will be able to clip and distort the signal, as the mic and the recording path will either introduce an upper limit, before you hit the any dynamic range benefits of 32 bit vs 24 bit. And a dual A/D converter setup, could be used to record to 24 bit, as it is only about optimizing for the available dynamic range of the recording equipment, not to extend the dynamic range beyond 24 bit, really as there will be other limiting factors.
But I get it, if you are using a field recorder and can't easily adopt the recording for all various uses as you will not actively monitor the sound at all times, it makes sense. For recording planned music, it really only creates unnecessarily big files, where you probably would have benefited from adjusting the gain anyhow in terms of quality of the actual recording.
For recording music: Pretty much only marketing hype.
For field recordings: possibly useful in some cases.
So if you are looking to record music, it makes more sense to consider other aspects. If it is an recording interface, the latency performance, the feature-set, the pre-amp gain, and so on.
And if it is more expensive compared to the competition, the money might be better spent on the actual microphone, as that may be limiting the dynamic range quite a lot already, much more than the 24 bit dynamic range limitation.
"Barely any microphone"? How about a large number of LDCs for one? Any self-respecting one these days will have self noise of at most 18 dB(A) (and less than 5 dB(A) at times), while handling 130+ dB SPL or even more with pad. That is well beyond 16 bits. Also keep in mind that microphone self-noise tends to be heavily 1/f in spectrum, so you have to be very careful when comparing it to the generally much flatter noise floors of electronics as numbers can be misleading.
@@PileOfEmptyTapes the max spl is typically the number for when the pad is engaged, an then typically with 20db of pad. You then have to deduct the noise and or resistance of the membrande. Some microphones thus actually have postings for their actual dynamic range, so we can tell the dynamic range they can record, and you will find that number typically is below 100dB.
sending love and peace to everyone...
Hey Julian.
So i have a wish in case others find it interesting too and most of all if you feel like makinga video about it.
It is about D/A converters. I frequently hear people for years now, argue how their 1000+ dollars interfaces (RME, Universal you name it) sound „not good enough“ and
that a much more expensive „super“ converter like a Lynx or Crane song etc will make a „huge" difference. I somehow do not believe that in converters of our time in history there can even be a huge differences but i cant back it up on a technical level as you would be able to do.
So i would be very interested in a comparisson of a high class interface to a high end „professional“ grade converter with actual measurements
of „What goes in, What comes out and What the actual difference is between them beyond Esoteric interpretations“
Danke!
Gerne doch und vielen lieben Dank für den Support :)
Please review sound devices mixpre-6 II next 🙏 learnt a lot from ur content keep them coming
One also has to remember that the Signal to noise ratio is the same for 24-bit signals using all bit as a 32-bit float signal. So if you add signals that are at different levels only the "largest" 24 bits of data will survive, which of course normally is fine, since the lower signal would normally drown anyhow. But just to say - the precision of the 32-bit float signal is not higher than a 24 bit signal, as long as you use the full range. What float does, is it saves you from making a lot of those "level"-mistakes and makes it much easier to do the signal processing, but the sound quality is the same
Awesome! Now I can just send people this instead of going over this again and again... and again! Life much changed for the better!😆
I would really love if you test groove box audio interfaces such as MAschineMK3/+ , Ableton Push 3, Akai MPC one/live, Force. etc..
I’m gonna give you two use cases where 32 bit float reigns supreme on location - shooting ranges and loud concerts front row trying to get that shot. Not having to worry about levels on the fly is the best. Buying a larger SF card is the smallest price to pay.
Julian, I love your video because you are the kind of guy that really rationalise things for what they are without selling illusions. Typically german (I say as a nice thing)!
Testing has revealed that the second level analog to digital converters add noise in Zoom 32bit recorders and less noise, but some, in Sound Devices 32 bit recorders.
Can you do one video on a new apollo interface pls, just cs is missing on the comparisons.
Btw gr8 job man on explanations
Please review the "PreSonus Studio 26c", love your reviews.
The biggest advantage for processing audio at 32bit is that you don't need to dither whenever you bounce anything, so you don't increase the noise floor every time you print anything.
Dithering noise is very low. Nothing to worry about. In music it's actually cool to have a bit of intentional noise.
@@aceyage teaching sound design I stay with 24 bit, partly because it's more useful to know about setting optimal levels etc. than abandoning control.. same way I don't properly know in new Polo GTI how the headlights work because they take care of themselves. I'm still not sure in relation to 32 bit, if decisions about levels are relinquished, how it affects the long-held understanding of ideal levels at point of recording for mixing. Similarly, with noise, low but existent noise seems ideal, and 32-bit floating point seems to upset acquiring understanding of relevant ratios.
I could watch a feature length movie of your content, with absolutely no adjustments to the format.
I'll pass and wait for the 64-bit double recorders. I know you are going to say nobody will ever need it. Neither were 1080p, 4K, and 8K video formats needed, and yet those are needed now. 🙃
I'm wondering based on your older video on preamp gain effecting the level of the noise floor in a recording that if you intentionally place the gain on a 32bit recording device (i have the Zoom F6) between the two preamps and lower it in post, do you get less preamp noise? Is it just two halfs equal 1 situation?
I have recorded album with 32bit float on F6 in 2022 drums, piano, bass, guitars, vocals. And this year 2023 i did another one with my old Zoom R16 in 24bit but i think the most difference there is are the more noisy preamp's Zoom R16 has. With F6 i can boost the top end over 10k high's of a piano without bringing up a bright noise like with the R16 preamps. On this years record i went more mellow, natural sounding overal feel and did not boost those. Overdubbing with F6 is time consuming process couse you have to record with two recorders, one to capture the sync + F6 to get the sound of the preamps and sync those tracks in post but the result sounds really good and there was some depth i could hear in the sound
Hello Mr Krause, Your helpful addvice helped with me getting a MOTU M4 which i love to bits ❤.
It was to replace a Behringer UMC204, (becuase no new drivers, it wouldn't talk to my PC) the Behringer UMC204 was powered through the USB i took a chance and plugged it into a phone charger and it looks like it works well in all aspects other than interfacing with computers. For example can run a SM57 mic through it, out the signal trough a guitar pedal on the insert, and hear the result through the headphone socket. Not sure if this wold work for most audio interfaces (scared to try with my MOTU M4). Please say if it is. Is very useful for super cheep preamp with extra features.
The legend has returned, finally
24 bit converters gave us a solution we’d all been awaiting. When recording with 24bit converters, a -20dBFS peak level is totally usable, which was not the case in 16bit. 24bit recording gave us flexibility at the input, flexibility setting record levels. A 32bit recorder does not add to that input level flexibility as the limits of physics have been met already at the input. We can’t lower the source noise by 48 db and we can’t send 250Vac from our preamps to a DAW.
For those of us who have equipment with multi converter and preamp tech such as a few field recorders or the Neumann Digital microphone,the safety extension IS available for 32bit recording. For the other 99.999%, it is not. This distinction is important and often misunderstood. Any situation in which the recording engineer has control (even a second of soundcheck) will return perfect results recording to 24 bits, using 3 or 4 of those bits (18 to 26db) for safety, much like we have always set safe levels, but with far greater room for error. Recording with the same front end (mic, preamp) to a 32 bit file accomplishes absolutely nothing.
A 32bit float(ing point) digital file gives infinite range for the most unimaginably clumsy file handling such as very large gain and eq processing IN THE DIGITAL REALM without check the result AND simultaneously erasing the original signal. If these exceptional conditions match your workflow, then 32bit ‘Float’ is manna from heaven. Such situations might arise in field capture for film or TV. In the studio or live concert recording, these actions would disqualify any engineer. In 50 years, I’ve never encountered them.
should i use mono for yt audio record or stereo
u rock!
And thus begins a new generation of hardware pushed and advertised to end users by the manufacturers, advertised as the new ‘industry standard’ and ‘must have’. All companies will follow suit for fear of being left behind. They will seek big named artists and engineers to help sell their stuff. And before long, the art of gainstaging is all but a distant memory. Why do we fall for this time and time again. Just because something is technically an improvement on ‘paper’, doesn’t mean ANYTHING for the majority of amateur users who actually need to spend their time and energy on their craft - not new gear.
The most important point in this video ‘shit in, shit out’. Don’t fall for the hype kids. Learn your trade as a musician, recording engineer, mix engineer… learn a bit of physics theory behind the electronics… even if you stay firmly in your DAW, understanding WHY your vintage plugins work the way they do will help you apply solid PRINCIPLES to all your future work. Remember, we’re just shoving electrons around until eventually we shove some air around at the end of it!
Float means "floating (moving) decimal point". Thinking decimal: imagine a 7 digit number with floating decimal point - we can write numbers from 0.000001 to 1,000,000. Traditionally we use integer numbers for 16 and 24 bit depths and, once again thinking decimal and using a 7 digit number we can go from 0000001 to 1,000,000 - that's because integer numbers don't allow for fractions.
Let's compare how much larger the second number is compared to the first one in both cases:
7 digit decimal float: 1,000,000 divided by 0.000001 equals 1,000,000,000,000
7 digit decimal integer: 1,000,000 divided by 0000001 equals 1,000,000
Comparing how wider is the float range compared to the integer range (same number of decimal digits¹):
1,000,000 divided by 1,000,000,000,000 equals 1,000,000 - using float allows for a range (from smallest or quietest to largest or loudest) a million times greater.
1) I used decimal digits instead of binary digits (a.k.a. bits) because it's easier to understand. Remember that floating point is a bit more complicated than what I did but I think keeping it simple helps to understand why floating point gives a larger dynamic range than using integer. I did not talk about dBs because I know very little about it.
Thanks, Julian! I finally understood how 32bit float works and how it can be implemented using less than 2^16 16bit ADCs!
Pls rewie Yamaha AG03/06 mkII.
Very good video, Julian!
Yes, I agree, 32-bit float is not a magic, but I don't agree it is not a "game changer". As sound designer and reporter working in the field, I love the freedom which I achieve with Zoom F3 or Tascam X8 recorders. I don'r care if levels temporarily peak above 0dB - I still have a good recording and I'm able to restore the proper levels in post-production. In the field you cannot fully prepare for changes in the environment - some of changes are too quickly to re-set the gain to "safe" value, and as you mentioned in the material, setting this level too low in 24-bit (to be safe "in the case") decreases the dynamic range. From this point of view, 32-bit IS very convenient and makes the life easier :)
Why everyone seems to tie 32bit float to the technique that combines multiple adcs signal together?
All you have experienced can be done in 24bit format. It's the combining two adcs' signal that makes the difference.
@@johnyang799 Of course. But multiple adcs are available only in 32-bit recorders. And some of these recorders has ONLY 32-bit format available. That is why :) On the other hand, if you have two or more adcs, you can process more than 144dB (just in case) and for that you have to use 32-bit. Do you need more than 144dB? Not really, but some mics have larger dynamic range, so you are able to catch whole the signal from them (e.g. Shure Beta 52A can handle 174dB SPL)
@@GadesChannel @GadesChannel Yea. I'm not saying the actual products are not good nor the fact you shouldn't use it. It's just that either good or bad marketing people tie the two together tightly.
btw there's also 32bit fixed point which is different from 32bit float.
@@GadesChannel well also being able to handel 174db spl is not remotely the same as 174 dynamic range. And over 140dbspl in real world is extremely unrealistic.
Beyond that you can combine two 24bit tracks to create more than 144db dynamic range. That's also part of the reason daw runs much higher precision underneath.
@@johnyang799 Yes, there is 32-bit fixed, I'm aware of that, but for now I never used any recorder using this format :)
And again, in my opinion, using multiple adcs without 32-bit float is not practical. Together they are very convenient even if you in theory can "fit" combined audio from multiple adcs in 24-bit dynamic range.
BTW. Do you know ANY recorder/interface which has multiple adcs per channel/track and has only 24-bit? I don't.
One thing I do not understand. 32 bit audio interface (steinberg ur22c for example) will use those 32 bits for recording only? If I won't record anything and just want to make music in Ableton in 32 bits - do I need a 32 bit audio interface for listening to what I do? Or I can have 24 bit interface and still produce in 32bit (i.e. interface bits and ableton bits are not related)?
One thing to note as well: You can't actually get a full 24 bits of info from recordings.
At about -123 dB, cosmic background radiation and thermal noise come into play, and with current circuity technology, there is no way to avoid it.
So really, the maximum amount of dynamic range you can record is only 21 bits or so. That said, you can synthetically create a wave in a file that exceeds this, but the moment it enters the analog domain, this limit comes into play.
24 bit is plenty. That said, the convenience of using two ADCs to avoid clipping can be pretty nice, but that's about it.
I work almost exclusively in 24-bit.
The only time this changes is if I'm delivering multitracks or stems to someone; I prefer to render
to 32-bit float so I don't have to dither. I always assume the other party _will_ dither, so I don't want
to add noise twice.
This may not even be sound logic, but I get peace of mind and I've never had any complaints.
Hi Julian, I have a question: what is your recommendation for a mic that best rejects background noise (apart from the sm7b)? I play keyboard/mouse and would like a mic that can reject some of that noise while I stream. Thanks in advance.
You want a dynamic style mic will do a good job in rejecting background noise. Just avoid the condensor mics they tend to pick up more. I just did a recording with the original podmic ($100) and thought for sure you’d here a cacophony of all the chaos happening in my house. I had dogs running around and my wife yelling and playing with them. You could barely make out a couple blips of background noise.
@@hackinghifi4247 Yes, and put the microphone close to your mouth, so the you have the maximum signal to noise ratio. The more distance between the main sound source (your voice) and the mic, the more the background is audible.
Nobody would record with an 8 bit ADC unless they're looking to get some of that sweet sweet quantization distortion. If you're recording a person who whispers and also screams - where the scream is occupying digital full scale (24 bits) and the whisper is ≈ 90dB lower... The whisper is effectively using around 9 bits. A 32 bit recorder would encode that whisper using ≈ 17 bits. These kind of finger wagging summations of dynamic range also fail to consider factors like "headroom" which basically assumes that any recording of a sound is both unpredictable and fraught with technical constraints.
So yeah, it's technically true that 24 bits can record from the threshold of pain down to the threshold of hearing, but the lower part of that range will be sitting at or very near a noise floor. Ultimately 32 bit is another tool in the toolbox that when cleverly deployed gives the recordist a bit more leeway to capture something with the highest possible quality
🙂👍
Let´s say its the other way arround more important so with 32Bit, you can increase very silent mixes without yielding with unpleasent artifacts. If you do that with 16Bit, you destroy the mix, if you do with 24Bit, it can be awkward, if you do with 32Bit, most of the sound textures stay clean. So yes, then you can send the mastering engineer, he can down dither to 24bit or 16Bit then at his mastering. By the way the precision is much much higher and I see no point, why people question it, as it is just a much more sharper knife in your kitchen. Of course yes I love it and I take it. Thanks and best Regards
don't forget that 32bit float is incredibly more accurate for any signal processing, expecially modeling.
i rember that using a toneport gx you could literally hear the difference between setting it up at 16bit or 24bit when doing amp/pedal modeling