How to Deal with Problem Players in D&D, Part 2
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 26 окт 2024
- Time to deal with more problem players in D&D! Or at least pontificate about it. Anyone who's been a dungeon master long enough in Dungeons & Dragons is going to have to deal with bad players from time to time. And handling players that cause issues isn't tons of fun, but it's something every DM needs to learn to deal with. In this video, I discuss ways a dungeon master can deal with eleven specific types of problem players in D&D.
Get a monthly PDF full of DM resources such as magic items, new monsters, adventure ideas, premade encounters, and even entire D&D 5e adventures ▶▶ bit.ly/theDMLai...
Pre-Order my Kickstarter Into the Fey, here ▶▶ bit.ly/intothefey
How to Deal with Problem Players, Part 1 ▶▶ • How to Deal with Probl...
-----------------------------SOCIAL----------------------------------------------
Discord ▶▶ / discord
Twitch ▶▶ / thedmlair
Watch my D&D games here ▶▶ / thedmlairstreams
Twitter ▶▶ / thedmlair
Instagram ▶▶ / thedmlair
-----------------------------D&D RESOURCES-------------------------------------
Join my newsletter for free D&D adventures and DM resources every week ▶▶ thedmlair.getr...
More free D&D adventures and DM resources ▶▶ www.thedmlair....
My published D&D 5e stuff on DriveThruRPG ▶▶ www.drivethrurp...
-----------------------------SUPPORT THE CHANNEL-------------------------------------
PATREON ▶▶ / thedmlair
CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP ▶▶ www.youtube.co...
DM LAIR MERCH ▶▶ teespring.com/...
-----------------------------AFFILIATE LINKS-----------------------------
D&D PRODUCTS I USE ▶▶ www.amazon.com...
VIDEO GEAR I USE ▶▶ www.amazon.com...
DUNGEONFOG ▶▶ www.dungeonfog...
use code THEDMLAIR to get 10% off this online RPG map-making tool
-----------------------------CREDITS/DISCLAIMERS---------------------------------------------
Editing ▶▶ Zack Newman
Art ▶▶ Adobe Stock & Wizards of the Coast
Music and Sound Effects ▶▶ Epidemic Sound
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.
Some videos on this channel are unofficial Fan Content permitted under the Fan Content Policy. Not approved/endorsed by Wizards. Portions of the materials used are property of Wizards of the Coast. ©Wizards of the Coast LLC.
#dnd #dungeonsanddragons
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
Free D&D Adventures and DM Resources ▶▶ bit.ly/TheDMLairSite
Get a monthly PDF full of DM resources such as magic items, new monsters, adventure ideas, premade encounters, and even entire D&D 5e adventures ▶▶ bit.ly/theDMLairPatreon
More Free & Inexpensive D&D Adventures and Resources ▶▶ bit.ly/DTRPGLukeHart
Twitch Live Streams ▶▶ bit.ly/TheDMLairTwitch
Pre-Order my Kickstarter Into the Fey ▶▶ www.kickstarter.com/projects/thedmlair/into-the-fey
why was it a problem for him to switch his weapon?
Playing dnd for a couple months idk why it would be a problem to switch his weapon
Holy s***, I need to award inspiration to one of my players. He's actually had moments where he says, "I the player knows Erica (his PC) is not immortal, and is probably going to die, but Erica thinks she's immortal, so she jumps off the bridge".
This is proper "that's what my character would do".
Amen.
I had one player, whose character was a Half Orc named Kumosh. This Half Orc, through role playing and risk, earned a sentient spear that which was heavily influenced by Gruumsh called Shatterfell. It would insult him if he failed to rush into combat, and would question his loyalty and faith. It was a foil to his own character. (I do that kind of thing as DM)
There was actually a high level story arc where a civil war broke out in the Orc nation of the world, and he decided to raise an army and fight to rule it. It came down to two surviving "generals" left - him and another. This other general was being run by a friend of mine in another province, essentially taking a lesson from Matt Colville and having remote friends run NPCs. This NPC made bold moves and showed absolute fearlessness.
When the spear saw this NPC in action, it said "He is a warrior. He is fearless. Tell me, how many eyes does he have?"
"Two", replied Kumosh (the player)
"How many does Kumosh have?"
The play looked at me, and said "I take Shatterfell (the spear) and gouge out my left eye."
"One.", Kumosh replied.
Shatterfell roared in approval.
I gave the player inspiration and immediate overview of the land so that he could see troop movements. I figured Gruumsh would heavily approve an intercede. After the last climactic battle, Kumosh sat in the Hall of Elders as their Warlord.
@@mikegould6590 that's a super cool story arc!
I have a player who has a warlock with an int of 6 and a wis of 8. He had a dragon mount and jumped off the dragon onto a rooftop into the middle of about 15 giants. the player explained his reasoning for the action as: 'my character is an idiot without the sense God gave cabbage. He's always wanted to jump off a dragon, use Alter Self to give him wings and float down cause he thinks it would look cool'. I said 'ok.....if you're absolutly sure that's what you want to do'. So I described how the warlock floated down and landed on the roof followed immediately by the giants swarming him. Surprisingly, he lasted 2 full rounds before he went down. He used the full 5 rounds for the death saves before he got back to his feet....then went down again after 1 hit. He never actually died though. His dragon did when it tried to rescue him. Poor, poor dragon.
I once got inspiration when my pirate character (backstory wise) saw them all talking about a book but skirting around what it said, so I went over picked the book up and was like “oh, it’s just an erotic novel, nothing that bad”
I actually had a perma newb and we tried a few things with some success. She has since graduated to newbish. She loves the game, but even after a year and a half she has difficulty remembering somethings. We have to remember our players are as unique as the characters they make and we may need to think out of the box to help them feel included and be able to participate.
1, We got her colored dice. Each die was a different color and we highlighted her character sheet with the color die she should roll. This worked amazingly!
2, We made economy flash cards. She loved the idea of a rogue, but couldn't remember all the actions to take during a session. This was more of a 50/50. Simple combats it worked well, ones with added dynamics not so much.
3, For the role playing aspect, she wanted to participate but was afraid people would judge her (we had some problem players who are no longer problems). I ran a duet with her and slowly added players once she was comfortable talking and RPing with just me. This way she had a smaller audience and was not pushed for time by other players. So far this has worked well but may not work with everyone.
She's improved so much and I'm really proud of her.😁
Number 1 is so useful. I've played off and on for over 30 years and have no problem remembering rules, but I still use color-coded dice. The time it saves really adds up.
_Oh, this axe does d10 damage? Come here, Blue, time to shine!_
I’m the jokester...
The main problem is when you’re attempting a witty one-liner and then everyone stops to talk about it.. that’s when I’m just looking at the DM like “I am so sorry...”
" _Stop being Funny D*mn it_ !"
But seriously, I guess that's OK if your in a tavern or at the campfire and such. If you crack a joke when the DM starts to crank out the *heavy drama background music* ... not so much.
Hey man at least you recognize it. Better then most players, right?
I don’t think there’s a problem with being a joker, you just need to understand and respect when the DM is trying to set a more serious tone and avoid undermining what they’re doing
I am a Fighter and I am proficient with the greatsword and the maul. Due to that proficiency I am well aware of how these weapons injur and kill. The blade is designed and intended to slice soft flesh. It certainly is a bonus for the blade to also be strong enough and sharp enough to cleave bone as well, but flesh is the blade's bread and butter. I also know that the maul is designed for the intent of crushing the bones beneath the flesh. It will do severe damage to the flesh as well, but that is really more incidental. So I see a Skeleton. No flesh for my blade to slice. LOTS of bones for my maul to crush. I switch from my SLICING weapon to my CRUSHING weapon because it is plainly obvious, in story, to my character, that the maul will be more effective against this enemy. That's not metagaming. That's accurately playing a well trained warrior who knows his weapons well, and understands how to size up a situation and choose the right tool for the job. I got a 15 for Initiative....can we get on with this now, or what?
@@inappropriateperson6947 Nope.
Not even close. A greatsword wasn't for fighting armored enemies. You had a mace or a warhammer for that. And if you think a greatsword cannot cut, I dare you to be on the recieving end of one.
I don't like "trolls and fire" as an example of metagaming either, because yeah, trolls hate being on fire, but you know what else hates being on fire? *Literally everything.* Like even if you don't know that trolls in particular have a weakness to fire, "set it on fire" is probably effective against just about every living thing you might encounter (except for like, fire elementals, and it's also not metagaming to *not* use fire on them, because if your character has at least chimp-level intelligence they can figure out that throwing fire at a thing *visibly made of fire* isn't gonna work.)
@@inappropriateperson6947 Greatswords are definitely sharp, and they're not actually that effective against armor. Realistically, what a person with a greatsword would do against an armored opponent is use a technique called a "murderstroke" which involves grabbing the sword by the blade (which is perfectly safe if you know what you're doing, also helps to be wearing gloves), and then bashing the enemy with the guard.
@@austinsadler1403 and another thing , building on your example here, why ISN'T some of this stuff common knowledge in the world yet!? I mean, I've never seen an elephant except at the zoo, but I know some random "common knowledge" facts about them! I have never been to China, but I know some "common knowledge" facts about it! Any adventurers who lived to tell their tale would...well...TELL THEIR TALE! People would start gaining "common knowledge" facts about the creatures in the world around them. Hell! I bet most leaders at any level of government in world with as rich a menagerie as D&D worlds, would be BEGGING adventurers to fight with these things and record all that they could about what their strengths and weaknesses are! There is good solid grounds for something very much like the Monster Manual to actually exist IN WORLD!
@@inappropriateperson6947 no sir, no sir. Greatswords don't weigh much more than 6 or 7 pounds on average and are VERY well balanced. They were designed for REACH (which the PHB fails to give them) not for CRUSHING. Edges (with absolutely NO REGARD for weight!) are designed for slicing, cutting, chopping, but NEVER for "crushing". A straight blade is a TERRIBLE chopper. So a great sword would be unforgivably bad at chopping like "an oddly weighted axe".
"Why did you put up the greatsword and use the maul against the skeletons?"
"Because skeletons are only bones and it's logical that a bludgeoning weapon would be far more effective than a slashing weapon."
Metagaming is... odd. For starters the longer you play DnD the more you will, inevitably, metagame. You can only face a troll so many times before you know everything about it. You can only face mimics so many times, you can only face giants so many times... IMHO metagaming is only really a problem in the game when it's tied with cheating. When you bring a monster into the game and the player 'looks up' the stat block and then uses that knowledge.
yeah the DM should probably have everyone make a survival or nature check and if even one player passes you can say "oh you've definitely heard in a tavern that trolls hate fire and acid", just so people don't feel bad about metagaming
@@afaultytoaster Yeah, flip the meta game into an in-game incident, make them roll for knowledge, or beastiary, or urban legends, or "streetwise" or whatever, using their stats and modifiers. If they pass you can dole out what they "know" in-character (depending on how rare the creature is or how well they rolled), or if they lose the roll you can inform them that in the panicked moment they can't recall exactly what the terrifying monster is and have them use it as a guideline for roleplaying that fear and confusion. Nudge them from the number crunch into what their character would do in-game with roleplay.
In my experience, metagaming is worst when using 3rd party or custom content and the metagamer doesn't like that the monster stats don't match their memorized stat blocks. "But their AC should be..." or "they should have X hp..." or "an NPC that knows mass cure wounds would be a powerful character that should be assisting us in battle and one shot this monster."
Grrr...
DM Lair: "How to deal with problem players. "
Me after seeing the thumbnail: say no more.
"And my axe!"
For metagaming, if something seems like it is common sense. That even a character with a 6 in intelligence could figure out, for example, that water is wet, or that vampires are allergic to sun (in a setting where vampires are well researched and known), then I'd say let it be done.
Game masters gotta learn to distinguish.
Someone I know basically claimed that if an action or use of knowledge benefits the party in some way it is automatically metagaming even if it is common sense, he probably wanted one of those plot conveniences where the party gets captured super easily because "a battle didn't start so your abilities don't matter" (y'know, like in video games; which are restricted to their code).
Right. I mean, the PCs live in that world. They would know things. I know what a bear is. I know what a shark is. I know what a mountain lion is. I live in the same world as these creatures.
The troll fire thing is a really bad example for "meta-gaming", in most high fantasy worlds knowledge like trolls should be burned should be semi-common knowledge, especially to people from an outdoorsy background. Skeletons and bludgeoning weapons too just makes logical sense. Why wouldn't your fighter be able to recognize that a skeleton's frail skeleton couldn't handle being smashed with a warhammer?
Players should not assume what is common knowledge, and should work with the DM on what their character would commonly know.
if you're finding that your players are metagaming often, you could always have them roll an ability check such as nature or history or something vs a set dc. Combine that with the player's arguement for why their character should know something. Yes, I realize it's kinda lazy on the dm's part but in my game it seems to eliminate much or the arguing and hurt feelings when I rule 'no, your character doesn't know that'
Luke: Don't make encounters unbeatable, they'll be terrified of everything
Every Curse of Strahd DM: Why not? They need to be scared!
A thing to remember is a fighter is trained to fight, and would know how to deal with some common monsters. If a monster is common near where a character is from they may know some tricks for fighting them. The party is adventurers at least starting ones and should have some knowledge.
A rule I use is if the player isn't paying attention their character isn't paying attention, if something happens the other players can fill them in or not, or they miss their turn in combat. Normally explaining that rule ahead of time keeps people paying attention. I explain that if someone decides to try to build an over powered character than I have to increase the difficulty of the encounters so it will challenge them which could prove detrimental to the rest of the party. I find being open with your players is a good way to prevent some of these issues.
Excuse for the skeleton example: I pull out my maul instead of my greatsword because they are clearly made of bones, and bones break more easily under blunt force.
"No logic in my game!"
i feel like almost any adventurer would know that a troll is vulnerable to fire. there are stories about that stuff. we all know the weaknesses of werewolves and vamvires.
That's kinda true. Since *Trolls* are very common in my world, Fire tactics are known. But in other types of worlds, not so much.
.... But using a rapier on a skeleton would be obviously dumb. Then yes, use that club. But a Greatsword is different. It's huge & has weight just like a big club or axe.
My sorcerer recommended using fire against trolls because all living things he had encountered to date ALSO didn't fare well against fire. When the troll ended up being an UNDEAD troll... Still fire.
@@inappropriateperson6947 Yet clearly it has considerably less effect on bone-based things. As reflected in the skeletons. Or is it something special about skeletons themselves that causes greatswords to be less optimal?
@@boxofgreed DM's call. A blow gun dart should be worthless in real life. In D&D a bare fist would be optimal over a spiked club with nails in it. If the player never sharpened their greatsword & let it go dull... would it be a blunt great sword?
@@inappropriateperson6947 Magic weapons never deteriorate, so to have a blunt great sword it would deal non-magical damage so it would still deal half damage against anything resistant to non-magic damage :) So, unless there is a homebrew, same effect as a piercing or slashing weapon.
When it comes to metagaming, I like to ask my DM if my character would know anything about that creature, and they usually offer me a free action Arcana/Nature check to find out.
Good idea
That's what I do as well, usually offering a reason (my sage being a former librarian who studies a lot, my druid spending the last 20 years in the region's woods etc). If my character has no reason to know (same druid trying to think of history despite having being a hermit for 20 years) I don't tend to ask.
Just use passive arcana, nature, history, and religion if you have the proficiencies. Talk to your DM.
Man, Im guilty of feeling number eleven all the time.
Never acted on it, but Im dying to play the 20 something different character ideas now rather than later.
With the Puppet Master, it's easier to spot them when you switch to board games. Know someone who actually moves our pawn for us because "it's the best route for you."
I admit to being a serial character creator. But I always seriously play whatever character I currently have in a game. My play group call it "flavor of the week."player.
Do all your characters have vastly different _personalities, goals_ & _accents_ ?
@@inappropriateperson6947 yeah I tend to mix a lot of characters with different backgrounds and ages I tend to only think of more basic Personality and goals since I don't know what kind of why the character is going to be until I start to interact with the rest of the players at the table. Can't say I do accents but they sometimes bubble up from somewhere from time to time.
@@Lcirex Sounds like you could be the VIP of your group. I would imagine that players request you play certain characters on different nights. Imagine playing along side Luke Hart as a player. One Adventure you might get the Barbarian & the next you could get Gary the Intern.
One thing that I believe doesn't get mentioned enough is screening players _before_ they are players.
I know some people feel it's a little too gate-keepy, but it's a fantastic tool for group stability. The group I've been playing with at least once a week for the past 3 years is put together almost entirely of people who were complete strangers previously, but it's been fantastic. The two of us that first got the ball rolling were very careful to screen out problem players/personalities before we even started, and made sure we were picking up players with similar interests and expectations for the game.
I feel like people in this hobby try really hard to be inclusive. We love this game, and so we want to give others the opportunity to love it too, and that's generally a good thing. That said, I believe it's sometimes to our own detriment, and I would encourage people trying to put a group together to try being just a little more exclusive than you'd normally feel comfortable with. You might be surprised at how much it improves your game.
I think some types of meta-gaming are understandable, such as your troll weakness, as it makes sense that someone living in a world with such creatures would likely know of local or common monsters. Knowing about foreign or unusual ones, like a sphinx, would be less defendable.
I actually had a puppet master/spotlight hog a while back. I tried talking to her privately a few times, until the point where she tried to dictate how the whole party responded when another play caught all of the enemies in a hypnotic pattern. Didn't even let him finish his turn, or give him props for the awesome spell, she just immediately jumped in and tried to decide how everyone was spending their turns, to the point of saying everyone else would hold their actions so she, the rogue, would get the first attack on each one. I, rather calmly, explained to her that she was interfering with everyone else's agency in front of the group. She got extremely indignant and looked to the rest of the players like they should jump to her defence, because she was just making sure they all played right. Of course, no one did, and she was huffy and sullen the rest of the night. Never showed up for another game.
I love it when trash takes itself out.
The Shy One alternate solution: Break everything down into turns; Go around the table left to right like in traditional board games asking everyone what do you do this turn of exploring, dungeoneering, social stuff, etc.
A simple explanation of why i would replace a sword for a mace, i am a warrior it is common sense that a sword is for cutting flesh making your foes bleed to death, unfortunately skeletons don't have flesh or vital organs so obviously you should use the object designed for crushing bones.
The reason a mace kills is because in crushes bones and skulls.
Another great video... Definitely have several of those descriptions in just one of my players. Unfortunately, it's my daughter who wants to be involved, but gets bored with everything but combat (which can also be boring to her). She tends to join the group when she wants to, which is also hard on the rest of the party (her two sisters and her dad).
I once asked my DM if there was a chance my pc could understand something because I was unsure 🤷♂️
That is always a good thing to ask. Don't be afraid to clarify things with the DM.
@@fanana6193 Agreed
I've started to tell the GM "I know this, but I don't know if [character's name] knows this"
@@AtrusOranis That's always a good thing to clarify, not least because the GM might go 'oh, [character's name] might know that from [backstory thing]'
Your character does have worldly knowledge that the player wouldn't know. Never be afraid to roll a history check about the world, inquire about the lore of the world.
I have a shy player at the center of the story,
It makes for an interesting dynamic,
As they don't necessarily share everything they know,
But the party thinks they're just as confused as the rest,
Which in some instances is true.
I want to mention the whole “using fire against trolls” metagame tactic. This could also apply to the weaknesses of vampires. Are we supposed to pretend that in a world where actual trolls exist and vampires exist, that their weaknesses would not become common knowledge?
Everyone in the real world knows that vampires can’t cross running water and can’t enter a residence, are damaged by sunlight etc, and THEY DON’T ACTUALLY EXIST.
So unless you the DM are going to take the time to change the monsters around so that their weaknesses actually heal them (i.e. fire heals a troll faster and cold stops them from regenerating), then we should just accept cartain things are common knowlege, just like they are in the real world.
Well that depends on your agreement with the party,
My party knew basically instantly they were dealing with a vampire,
But decided it'd be more fun if they didn't know what vampires are.
This would deppend of the world setting, so still is the dm who decides
_They also glitter in the sun & garlic gives them diarrhea_ .
IDK, I never fought a vampire IRL. I heard that mirrors only worked if the had a silver backing because it was the silver that mattered. You could have some fun with that. But if you allow ALL the pop culture weaknesses then you're doing it wrong.
@@inappropriateperson6947 Yeah, the mirror thing is apparently because silver reflects the soul energy, which vampires are always really low on. because they don't have a soul of their own.
@@BramLastname Yeah, I forget who's video I saw that in. Most people know of the weaknesses but never bother to ask why they work. When players relay on pop culture, the DM should allow them to be wrong. If the DM can put a stronger focus on the narrative them maybe Meta gaming wouldn't be necessary. Maybe fire cauterizes the trolls veins. If Trolls are always sloppy gross wet & when it regenerates it makes a wet bubble sounds... Then maybe the players would figure out to evaporate that water.
I love NOT using out of character knowledge in character. During a fight outside of the inn where the party was staying...MY character was blissfully unaware upstairs hanging out in a nice hot bath at the end of the day. Had he become aware of the fight downstairs, he would have come to the party armed with a freshly cleaned birthday suit, and a pair of short swords. Either way it was humorous. That makes for a good part of the story.
one of the main reasons I watch DM lair videos is to keep up on the whole lore surroundimg the skits
They should be a mini series on Netflix. 😂
The most detailed approach to the topic i found so far. Well done :)
I am a player and it expanded my horizons knowing what peopel feel when playing with me.
As a shy and sometimes easily distracted player I have hard time catch up with others.
Once I was playing online with a group that was super expressive and were overwhelming me. After a few sessions i got an idle kick.
None of them wanted to interact in character with me and they would rather get rig of a player to make scheduling easier.
I am a quiet player. It’s not that I’m shy, but it’s more of me trying to be respectful to the other players
Isn’t a problem if you know when to say what’s on your mind.
Cool;Cool.
Lots of players are. Respect & empathy are positive qualities. I know you didn't say "empathy" but, you kinda defined it. As an Emphatic person I have to remind myself that empathy is not infectious because I feel it should be. Play the game & your character your way first. Being quiet or respectful or emphatic means nothing to players who can't comprehend why your doing it, because you never opened your mouth & told them.
That's me, it's hard to make myself talk sometimes, but I also find it hard to do, and I like rping, just it's hard to be in the spotlight, especially when you're not sure what to say/do. But then some days I'm just quiet.
@@Zarsla Used to have that problem when I was a teenager.
What I would do is look at what's happening at the time and think of how my character would react at the time. Then, I would just blurt it out.
It doesn't need to be your character speaking. You can have them lean on a wall, sharpen their axe or look around to keep your character occupied.
For example: My Dwarf Barbarian is waiting for the Paladin to negotiate with the shopkeeper, so I describe my Dwarf leaning on his battleaxe and thinking about those dirty goblins they fought yesterday.
I find the quit player is
Most likely a noob.
Im usually quit till I know the game better, no matter the trpg
Age old advice. Talk to your players.
Hey, you. Finally awake.
🦞🔪 I've been looking for you...
@@Lobsterwithinternet you've made a mistake
"Nobody cares Matt Mercer!"
J/K
I’ve been looking for you, got something to deliver. Your hands only... Lets see here...
Do you get to the cloud district very often? Oh what an I saying, of course you don’t.
I used to be a puppet master. Then I watched videos like this one and now I shut up
That's what i call a character developement. Well done!
Growth 👏
With regards to the metagamer, a DM i know uses random tokens and monster names for the monsters he uses. So expect the bunny to be a mindlflayer.
I disagree with that highly my DM threw The Ether Bunny at us! Chloroform egg bombs. Damn demon bunny from the abyss! It was a Homebrew monster though. Still that is one way to prevent metagaming custom monsters!
But if your character can see it, they should know the difference between a bunny, and a 5-6 foot tall tentacle faced creature hovering off the ground.....
**When all else fails** Time to replace the player.
There are more players looking for a game than there are DMs looking for players.
I have been dealing with a problem player who is a combination of many of the issues you brought up, so these videos helped me a lot to figure out what to do with them.
Glad you continued the story line. I love the Universe you have created
*Gasp*
Does this mean Gary the Intern is actually The Rogue?! 😱
This changes everything
More like a ‘skill monkey’ rogue.
The lore implications!
I thought we already knew this. Their voices are practically the same 😉
I recently had a DM critic who was also a Puppet master, a freak out and a bully. Because I knew him for years prior to the campaign, I felt guilty every time I considered asking him to leave (since every time I tried taking to him about his behaviour, he would become belligerent and a bully that gaslit me. I finally kicked him when my entire family were like "yoh. Kick this guy. He's crushing your mental health". Game has been so fun after he was removed from the game
Thank you for this series, its helping me working through my feelings. I just shared it with the Paladin in my group because he and I are having a bit of a tough week . We are in a party on Roll20 where the evil/sadist/chaotic characters outnumber characters that are good/lawful (aka he and I). Our DM is looking at splitting our group in half according to our alignments and or coming up with another solution. If he doesn't do something, he and I feel that our group members will end up killing each other and our allies and pets because of our backgrounds, goals, and inability to agree/compromise. The Paladin and I aren't cool with this. Its really, really frustrating when you feel like you can't role player your character without it leading to a profound amount of death and destruction. If you have any advice for players and DMs going through this situation, let me know. In our case, we didn't have a session zero, the DM let whomever wanted to join the party join, so that may be part of the issue. I believe in inclusion, but I also believe in being wise, and I'm not sure where the line is.
What if the Jokester is the DM (it's me I'm the Jokester DM, it's a problem)
I can relate.
The problem is not really the amount of jokes. It`s... well it`s actually two things.
On one side, a dissonance with the tone of the story (or scene). No one is going to care about the love triangle if it appears during an execution, it just doesn`t fit there. And that is a problem because it cuts any emotional impact the scene was supposed to have, which also takes the players away from the story (just like any other incongruency in the world makes them remember this is not the real world). The other problem is sticking too long on a mood. Any emotional moment is only as strong as its contrast with whatever came before, so if you stick too long on anything, it loses the effect and the whole period it remains like that will begin to emotionally blend together (also the players will stop caring about what is going on, and you don`t want that).
In conclussion, there is not a problem with cracking jokes any time it fits as long as it actually fits (which if you are the DM is a very easy thing to do, just make scenarios that allow it) and don`t forget to get things serious from time to time.
@@Katwind Yeah my games are usually pretty light. None of my players take the game super seriously and it usually has the tone of Army of Darkness. Lots of gore and memes.
@@siskohellkaiser94 That seems like a lot of fun.
Good point about getting players outside my friend groups. Reminds me that I need to get more newbies into pen and paper
My favorite metegaming experience was when we were fighting a monster that was resistant to cold damage. I was playing a wizard and I used Ice Knife against it because that is what my wizard who didn’t know what the monster was would do. After the session was over the DM asked me if I knew what it was and I said that I did but I used a cold spell against it anyway. He told me that he’d forgotten about the resistance and that I was doing full damage when I shouldn’t have been.
It’s possible for an experienced player to play without using our knowledge. It’s more fun too!
I once threw some black puddings at my players. 20 of them. My wizard, threw out a lightning bolt at them. Of course, they multiplied and they now had 40 puddings to deal with. Afterward he explained to me that he knew they were puddings and what would happen if exposed to lightning. He also explained that his character, being stuck in a library most of his life, had no idea and as he was a lightning wizard - most of his spells were modified to do lightning based damage - he would/should not have used anything but lightning on his first attack. I told him off as doubling the number of monsters like that just created more work for me. He laughed, I laughed, the chair laughed, we ran out of the house. Fun was had
There are certain iconic monsters that I will just give my players the go ahead to understand their weaknesses. If its from the monster manual and its a CR 10 or below 10? Sure. I don't see the harm in that.
You know trolls dont like acid or fire being thrown at them, lets be real who does?!
You know bones are brittle, so rocks are more effective than arrows against skeletons.
Shadows and shadow demons don't like sunlight?! Whatttttt.
Or that a red dragon uses fire (yes i had a whiny DM who moaned over me buying a fire resistance potion after hearing he was hired to take out a red dragon)
@@ShugoAWay what seriously? Red dragons live in friggin volcanic mountains or actual volcanoes why wouldn't you want to bring a potion of fire resistance?!
@@AbrokennoseOUCH apparently because my character hadn't been burnt to death by one i shouldn't know it uses fire despite that it was described as having roasting a section of the city with...Fire
@@ShugoAWay look man, sometimes you roast a city with sick insults you don't know how savage this dragon was 👀
@@AbrokennoseOUCH nah man DM clearly described fire based damages of ash coals scorch marks etc but still insisted that i shouldn't know it was a fire based dragon even with 90% of pop culture dragons being a fire dragon, even with basic D&D knowledge of basic dragon colors
The skeleton mauls thing could be excused as something that can be guessable, also trolls being vulnerable to fire could be excused by claiming it should be general knowledge.
when you're so early, the subtitles haven't been made yet......whoever does the subs, can you please cast haste on yourself, I'm deaf, thanks in advance.
so...your most recent vid appears with subtitles, but this one still doesn't have any?
I feel like I could slip into some of these, especially the character critic one in my current dnd campaign. Got a pair of rogues that literally pilfered a fresh crime scene and an artificer that tried to burn down a shop one the way out because the rogue tried to steal something and failed. I am also a bit of a casual and prone to analysis paralysis, then again I've not played a full game session (prior to last week) for 7+ years so I'm basically a newbie 😅. Waterdeep really is gonna be deep under water once my party has been through it, if they survive deflected magic missiles 😆
I solved the problem with players who want to change characters ali the time years ago. Simple, when your character dies, you can make a new character. This has resulted in some amazing moments of heroism in the group when the player was just looking for a heroic way to terminate their own character, and save part members or the whole group in the process. ANOTHER option is to let them have a new character....as a henchman or hireling of their current character. This gives them time to decide if the character is really what they want, and if their main character bites it, the replacement is already there and part of the group.
Here's one: I had a person in my group that always rolled a the same character. Every campaign was a slightly varied version of the main character from the "novel" they were writing. This person always sat back and let rest of the party do the heavy lifting. If it was combat they'd fire an occasional arrow from a safe distance. If it was a sketchy corridor they'd let the others go first (btw this person ALWAYS played a rogue). It was terribly frustrating as a dm and a player.
For quiet players, I like to provide them character specific backstory RP events at the table. Recently, our cleric and wizard turned themselves in to clear their names and were arrested. During this time, the cleric's father in the cell across from them, spoke to her directly. The player had fun and the strong voices were actually doing something else.
I run online for friends. In the first combat I didn't hide AC and HP and they explicitly asked me to hide them somehow because they can't help but look. The second session the group backed out of a fight with 4 snakes due to this. They have my respect.
Awesome video, Thanks Luke
Thanks! 😀
Thanks for giving us these.
DM: Why do you want to use your maul instead of a greatsword againt these skeletons?
Me as PC: Greatsword as a bladed weapon deal slashing dmg. The skeletons have no flesh to cut. But you can still bonk em.
In my view, some monster weaknesses would be common knowledge in areas beset by them. The same goes for other monsters, as well.
I love the subtle explanation of where the solution is. 😆
I have met another type you did not mention (i think) that i would call a whining tantrum. It's a player that refuses to accept their rolls and their outcome as a final say. Tried to steal an item and failed? "Can i reroll for no good reason whatsover?" When they are told no, they would try to get into the same situation immediately afterwards even if it doesn't make a sense. They would ask for rerolls, ask to try again like an ingame minute later, when being in game physicaly removed from the situation by other players, they would try to resist them and fight them just so they can have yet another go at the Thing™. They argue and demand and whine until they get their desired success or until they are told to cut the crap at which point they start to sulk, possibly leave the game in person or they get destructive in character. Met 2 like that. One changed his behavior between sessions so i think there may have been a conversation between him and the DM that worked, but the second had to be removed from the game completely.
Oh God, a certain player in my group sometimes moans at me for not charging mindlessly at every enemy just because I'm a 'melee class'.
Plot Twist, my character doesn't identify as a class, I as a player use classes as a GUIDELINE of a character's overall features; not as their identity or at least not always.
I use to play a thief & tell everyone that I was a fighter. _My character was just bad at being a fighter_ . Why not, I was in all the fights anyway. They can solve their own explosive traps. I'm a Thief not stupid.
I don't identify as a class either. I identify as an attack helicopter. BRRRRRRRRT!!
Well, consider being in the opening scene of any Game... You're in the tavern, sitting at a table with a group (essentially) of strangers...
Who in his right mind would open the conversation with "Hello, I'm an assassin, gone rogue from the Imperial School of Assassination. The name's Bob. Nice to meet you all." ???
OR...
"So... We're all here about this Adventurers Wanted poster in the bulletin? Well, I'm a professional cut-purse. I'm just tired of plying the trade over in Waterston, and thought I'd try moving up to bigger and better things. Hope this is an in and out job."
Think about that a moment... In reality, there are lots of "jobs" or "classes" that qualify as such in Game Terms, but would naturally be despised. Scarcely mentioning an aspiration to them would likely get your throat cut and your sh*t stolen while they tossed your corpse to the pigs. Just get out once in a while, and talk to people. Honestly, how many times have you heard, "OH joy... I've been robbed. I think thieves are SO romantic and dashing. This has been such a privilege!" ???
Fact: While most people might step up to defend the idea that stealing something shouldn't deserve a death penalty, 99% of people who have ever worked for anything in their lives will outright tell you "I can't stand a thief"... AND the only thing more reviled than a thief is a liar.
Stands to reason, aside from a few nobler professions, most people in-game would NEVER IN HELL identify as their Class. Bards wouldn't even willingly identify as a Bard... but rather prefer some particular kind of actor or performer instead. "I'm a rock n' roller" sounds more pointedly useful AND nobler than "I'm a bard."... Maybe "I'm a juggler" etc... depending on the particular proficiencies or favored "act" or "routine".
I'd highly advise you stop thinking of Characters in terms of "Classes"... BUT rather the specific types of jobs they prefer to be doing with their class feats and abilities. Fighters might be "Gladiators" or "Soldiers" or even "Mercenaries"... BUT "fighter" just sounds flat in comparison. Even "Brawler" or "Scrapper" would sound better. ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 I once opened with the whole " _Hello, I'm an assassin, gone rogue from the Imperial School of Assassination. The name's Bob. Can I buy you a drink_ " ... line on this chick with glasses. I figured... you know... be different.
@@inappropriateperson6947 I've actually had positive results stumbling up to a chick, covering one eye while scanning her up and down theatrically (pretending to be more drunk than I was), and then slurring out "Hey! Nice shoes... Ya' wanna f***?!" ;o)
Most of the games i run right now are with a group full of "The Permanent Newb"s and honestly, it can be incredibly fun. The solution is to lean into the reason they're there, the social. Either try to give them situations that facilitate interparty-roleplay or do your best to introduce them to colorful characters. I think it's also a fuuuuckton easier to have everyone enjoy themselves if ALL your players are permanent newbies as opposed to just having one in your regular group.
Most recently i played through "Santac'Laus is Coming to Town" by Dan Williams and it was wonderful! It's very silly so the newbies don't have to take things too seriously and don't feel like they have to take active part in every single scene. It's got just enough characterization so as to get the players interested in a character but is still vague enough that you can kinda build the character on the fly. Lillian has like 2 sentences about her in the whole thing but my party immediately adopted her and she served as a kind of guide to the town. I'd recommend it if you have time before christmas, there's a giant mech they can pilot it's dope.
As a player (first time RPG player in general), I'm extremely grateful to my GM and fellow party members for their great patience in tolerating my EXTENDED, EXTENDED noob phase. It's not that I didn't care, I just genuinely had trouble understanding the conceptual underpinnings and mechanics. Like, I have never been a video game player, so the transition in framing between a fictional character's narrative and personality and story, and the mechanics of taking action and that being tracked numerically, was extremely unnatural to my thinking. I would *dread* combat because I felt so stupid and lost even when I tried hard. It was a relief when we had a session with no combat. I felt like I was always forgetting something important, even when I reread the materials over and over again. And I would take forever to make any decisions. I've just tried to make up for it by being very into the RP and trying to be fun and creative with that. It took almost two years before everything really started to sink in and feel somewhat natural. And even now there are basic things that I mess up.
for the example of how to deal with the DM Critic I legitamately thought of a reply: "Look I'm the DM, You are a player who doesn't necessarily know the full story, so don't tell me where to put my goblins.(edited because I can't spell great)
Fun fact: my second table I ever dmed for were all problem players (one lala land/permanent noob, one meta gamer, one edge lord/lala land, and one uncooperative player). It was a terrible experience. They were all friends. My first table also wasnt that great. I thought it was me for a very long time but then I started dming again for a new table. With three experienced players who all had been dms and two noobs it has been great.
Yeah players make a huge difference. Even an experienced good DM will struggle to run a good game with a group full of bad players.
The permanent newb drives me crazy. One thing I have done is to communicate with the party (via email/discord) in the time between sessions, requiring them to respond in character with something that would have in game consequences. Basically, it forces them to think about the game a little more and if they aren't willing to do that, I will gently ask them the question do you really want to play? because if you do, you need to......and if they don't do it, then you have your answer. It is tough because it can have real life social consequences, but you can always schedule a candy land game with them at another time.
When it comes to the troll example - the monster is so well known it is impossible to not metagame when it comes to this monster. Just let the PC's know about trolls from stories they heard growing up.
I think we've all gone through that phase where we're just addicted to making characters and want to play all of them. Im still in that phase tbh and im trying to find more campaigns to play these characters in
I'm pretty sure in a world where there are literal spells to turn undead, people would know what weapons are good against skeletons.
With Problem Player Number 2, metagaming is one of those things that sounds easy to avoid until you’re a player. Simply “avoid using what the player knows if your character doesn’t know” sounds easy. But actually at the table it’s a different story
My problem is an out loud metagamer. Telling me what a monster's stat *should* be, critiquing the spells that an NPC has, when a new homebrew setting diety is revealed blurting out "that spider queen is a stand in for Lolth," etc.
It's different than metagaming to an advantage, it drives me insane.
I've seen all of these types, and had one player that took on aspects of 5 of them. He wasn't as frustrating as one other though.
The bully. That guy somehow developed a hate on for me during one campaign, making wild accusations of both my character and myself. I took the DM aside to ask if they had any issue with me or my character, or saw validity in any of this other guy's claims. The DM said they had no idea what this guy was on about, and asked for a lowering of tensions at the table.
That put a temporary cap on things, but they began again the second we started again in a new campaign. Again, this player wanted to argue over basically everything. If it wasn't his way, then he would refuse participation. When it came to his choices, every turn took 20 minutes. Should anyone say anything, he'd freak out.
It all came to a head when, out of the blue, he started shouting accusations at me to the shock of the table. I had had enough. I confronted him then and there and asked what the hell was up. That resulted in him emailing threats to my DM and demanding my removal.
He was FINALLY kicked from the group.
The "Permanent Newb" was already mentioned as a comment previously, and I can tell you that everyone is happy she's gone. Refusing to learn a single thing when you're actually a school teacher IRL says a lot about yourself.
As far as DMing goes, I had two massive metagamers, one of which was also the "everyone's critic/puppet master". My solution? I have an entire volume of home brew monsters that I made myself. I made a bunch of new magic items and a list of new spells. I created cultures for monsters to make intelligent races less of a cookie cutter. I wrote a dozen new player races to keep everyone guessing. Then again, I have the luxury/curse of a brain that never turns off.
I own the same kind of brain which is the main reason why i'm thinking about DMing in the near future. After all, if i have all those random sparks of inspiration in the middle of my work, i may as well note them down and incorporate them into my world somehow
I once had a player who would not stop cracking jokes EVERY FIVE MINUTES!!! It drove me insane and even my other players complained to me about it saying how it was getting out of hand. I had to agree with them and told them that I would deal with it. I pulled that player aside and explained to him, kindly but firmly, that the joking was starting to interfere with the game, other players were complaining to me about it, and, as the DM, I had to do something about it. I explained that joking while shopping or while getting a few drinks in a tavern was one thing, but joking while getting important information from an NPC, during combat, or other situations that required the PCs to be more serious was NOT ok. I’m glad to say the player has stopped joking every 5 minutes and to prevent the problem from occurring again, I have now put strict limits on the amount of joking at my game table. If they want to joke around excessively, they can do so at another DM’s game table but not at mine.
I like all aspects of dnd but my favorite is being able to help my players create an epic story, when I run my campaign it’s mostly story driven, right now my players are a wizard king’s go to fighters, each one has lore that I as a homebrew dm have solidified into the game and the more, and given their backstories intricate meanings to the plot, they love playing said characters cause it feels like they have consequences and their characters have meaning to the story, not just some discardable adventurer but a hero
I was a player in a Star Wars game a few years ago, with a player who just couldn't learn the rules. He was best friends with the GM, who while exasperated with the other player's inability to learn the game mechanics, the GM pretty much tolerated him. It was difficult as another player to constantly keep silent and not be one of those players who constantly tells other players how to play their characters.
I also DM'ed for a player who would switch his characters. Every few sessions he would come up with a new character concept, and I had to come up with a way to let the old PC exit the game, and come up with a way to introduce the new PC. The first time it happened, I readily acquiesced, since the player had played the character for a few months, and it wasn't disruptive to do the switch, and I wanted to accommodate the player. Then we began a Tomb of Annihilation campaign, and he switched characters in the third session. Afterwards he switched characters two more times, before he ultimately had to drop out of the campaign. I think I should have been firmer with the player, not letting him switch so much in the second campaign. But the trouble is that a good DM should want their players to be happy. And I don't want to force a player to keep playing with a PC they don't want to play. I just don't know what the solution is. Even limiting the number of times the player can swap PCs may lead to an unhappy player.
A year later, and it hurts me knowing a friend of mine had MULTIPLE problem player tendencies. Argues rulings, powergames, metagames, steals the limelight among other habits. As a group, we had such limited experiences outside of him as a DM we didn't realize how bad his actions in general were, especially me when he was telling me how to run my game.
The problem that I know with that type of player is one very few people address: killing the group by kicking problem players. I had 3 players and kicking him would have left two players to finish a story over a year in the making, and I just couldn't handle the thought of ending a campaign over him refusing to shape up
I think the troll thing is a poor example, at least in the forgotten realms pretty much everybody knows that fire kills trolls, well at least in the northern sort coast. They literally have a holiday about burning trolls
and on skeletons. I mean I don't fight skeletons in real life but I don't think it takes very much of a leap of logic to realize that something that's blunt is going to do more damage to bones than something that's sharp
This all makes a lot of sense, I personally am guilty of number of 11, but I don't want to ditch my character. So, I just do small one on one, single session games with my dm with these new characters, which last about 2-3 hours. We do this when they are able to and feel up to it. This could be an idea for how to deal with number 11.
Sometimes I have to refrain from becoming the puppet master, mainly because I enjoy working through challenges in combat, and that often means people need to make good choices. At the same time though, it can be frustrating when other people do things that are foolish or suboptimal which negatively affect you.
Foolish example: When our monk runs to attack a different enemy while I (the healer) am at 1 failed death save, directly beside an enemy paladin who just cut me down on the first round of combat (beat my initiative by one, oh joy)
Suboptimal example: Different group, had a wizard who wanted to be a blaster. I helped him make his character. He just... refused to respect resource management. Hated using cantrips, even when he was doing less damage spamming Magic Missiles. After every fight he would demand to long rest. Didn't matter if it was 8 am and we were literally still in the town that we were getting ready to leave that day(and by the rules wouldn't get any benefit since we just woke up)...didn't matter that our party included 2 warlocks, a fighter, and a monk...Didn't matter that Arcane Recovery exists...or even that our party was on a time crunch....Even with us saying that he could use cantrips and that a fight looked easy, he'd demand long rests. The DM was too nice about that shit.
describes one of our players
sits forward in anticipation
"Honestly, I have no idea how to deal with this one."
Cue the Norman sigh
If Player = Problem /then have Conversation.
If Resolved Play Game.
If Resolved = No /then Player leaves game.
Also
If Monsters are real in your setting then knowing their strengths and weakness would be part of the lore myths and tales.
I know the strengths and weaknesses of Vampires in our world lore and they aren't real.
I had a La La Land once. The other players were examining a cursed throne. He insisted on sitting on the throne despite a dozen red flags and me asking them if they really wanted to do that. He exploded and had to make a new character. He learned his lesson and no longer tries to play D&D and MC at the same time.
Metagamimg - a delicate balance. The way I work it Certain places in the world know more things then other places and vice versa. Traveled Characters know more, depending on backstory, and may release that information if they know it. To me it’s like North Americans know what a moose is. And Chinese know what a panda is, but never may have encountered them just know it through some story passed down to them and can recall a story about them. Based on the roll the story might have insight, or might just be piss in the wind. But geographic based on species and cultures just always feels a bit more real to me. Also I love lore so filling stuff in with stories from someone brings a richness to the game to me.
Great advice! Communication is key in most situations.
Hi Luke I'm Justin in my group I am running T.O.A I've have a player who fell asleep at one of the games then passed out drunk in another game session and finally just didn't show up apparently everyone said he was in Tahoe for the weekend. However we do have five people in the adventuring party and I speak with my players and ask them if this is an issue and everyone said not at the moment so I feel it's important to talk to the rest of the group if there is one problem player. Best advice speak with your players thanks Luke!
Why did I switch to the maul? Because I’m afraid of my blade getting caught in that rib cage!
I have a slight problem with metagaming myself, because I just remember random things from previous games and discussions and such.
So when we encountered a troll, I immediately knew we should use fire and looked sadly at the DM: "I know what to do. Does my bard know? She could know legends about them? Maybe? Please?" And DM let me roll on History to see if my bard can use the knowledge.
So in my first real session in DnD I've played since i was a teenager, we had a player that is:
Rules Laywer, Limelight, Cheater, Instigator, Power Gamer, Metagamer, Player Critic, Puppet Master, Mr. Lala Land, The Bully, The Shy One (But he will chat with NPCs non stop!) and The Freakout.
We found a real winner here.
Yeah .......
I see a major up tick in bad players as people are forced on to VTT's & video chat in order to play .
"Why are you using a maul on the skeleton instead of your sword?"
"Because it's a skeleton made of hard stuff, and I don't want to dull my sword hacking bones. Same reason why I use my axe on wood."
🤔 the why do you use your sword on metal armor?
@@radartrigger5667 Haha good point, but to be silly, it's because armor only makes it harder to hit. D&D has different physics than in irl, so characters would be somewhat aware of that. Attacks don't "bounce off" of heavy armor, they simply don't connect.
Was really hoping for some guidance on the permanent noob. One idea I had (pending their approval, of course) was removing them from the party and tasking them with NPCs each session so that they can socialize and roleplay but don't need to follow a character sheet or spell list. But that requires a game with lots of NPCs. It's just exhausting to spend 3 minutes every time they take a turn explaining what to roll for a ranged attack, or what the spell they're casting actually does.
I get that this isn't the point, but the skeleton analogy was bad. Any combatant, or hell, non-combatant, would assume a crushing weapon would be preferable against the skeleton than a cutting weapon, even if they had never fought one before.
Nice definitions for the Part 2 of thes videos!
It could be an interesting topic to talk about differences in GOOD and BAD metagaming. I don't remember if you did it in the "metagaming" video.
IMO, people who can't stick with a single character/class have issues. Most campaigns (per WoTC) don't last beyond lvl 5. How could it be difficult to stick with a single character...ridiculous.
I have two friends in my current group, that have ever since the game started complained about another group member, but they didn’t complain to me about it. Instead they have chosen to complain to the player they have a gripe with whenever I’m not around, and whenever I ask about any problems they stonewall me, or act like what they complain about are just jokes. Now for an example these two recently said that the one player gets special treatment, because he does private sessions to make his weapons, and do tasks that would slow the main session down,and on one hand I can see how that might be interpreted that way, but it’s not because they can, and have done private sessions, but all they ever want is to go out, and make money, or pray to their goddess. The critiquing has gotten to the point that this one player’s love for DND is dying he regrets making his character, and he blames himself for what’s happened, and all day yesterday I tried to handle the situation, but one who plays a bear totem barbarian stonewalls and acts like nothing is a big deal, and the other a hex blade warlock complains he doesn’t like how his character is, compared to the one player but doesn’t want any solution I offer. So I ask youtube, do I kick these two players, or try and get this mattered settled in another way?
I don't tell players what they are fighting unless they would know from previous encounters or other in game reasons. ex.The local towns people are complaining about a giant and describe it to the players. When they meet a creature fitting that description it's reasonable they might conclude it's a giant. Of course it could be any variety of giant or possibly an ogre or troll. The characters may or may not be able to distinguish between them. Previous game play or the often overlooked back story could provide insight.
I do like to show pictures either way. The characters aren't usually blind and should know what the thing they are facing looks like, also I want them all to "see" the same creature. The minds eye is great but not typically uniform amongst the players.
I don't have a problem calling out meta-gaming and my players are usually good about asking for clarification on what their characters would know and acting accordingly.
In regards to the monsters and meta gaming, I kinda disagree with characters not knowing about trolls and fire.
In universe, there would be stories and tales about these monsters. The characters would have grown up hearing about them.
Here is my take on Trolls, when you live in a world where getting eaten by a troll is a real possibility, your parents would teach you that fire is effective. It's like how we say play dead with bears and make yourself look big for mountain lions.
Yea but then DMs don't get to be whiny pricks over the difficulty of the encounter
With metagaming and trolls, I think a good way someone put it is "is the encounter more interesting or less interesting if they know this information?". With trolls, for example, if the player is forced to not know if they're weak to fire, they have to go through a hollow motion of hitting it with random things until they get fire. But if you do know they're weak to fire, then you have to deal with the fact that fire is a limited resource.
Another thing is also that I'd argue understanding the monster manual represents a kind of player skill. Someone who's extremely familiar with the game should play differently than a newbie. Mind you, I wouldn't let them look through the monster manual in-session, but if they're reading through it between sessions and they say "Hey! Wait, I think I remember those things being weak to fire!" that's probably ok as long as they can justify how their character knows it.
Another thing with metagaming is that sometimes the mechanics are things that'd be obvious to PCs. For example, bludgeoning weapons being better against skeletons makes sense because they're hard-bodied creatures so a bludgeoning weapon is going to be more effective here.
Why switch to the maul when you're fighting skeletons? Same reason you would switch to the maul against armored opponents: blunt objects are better at distributing energy through a hard surface. You use different weapons and tactics for armored or unarmored combat, and since skeletons have no external soft tissue they're effectively armored. That's not metagaming, that's just knowing your tools.
Also, swords can get stuck in bone. Bones are a lot easier to smash than they are to cut. *Anyone who uses a sword regularly should know this.* For that matter, so should anyone who's ever eaten meat, or observed someone else cutting meat.
My solution for Metagaming: allow them to make an Intelligence check to see if their character might know about it. Or simply give them the information if it makes sense given the Character (A Grave Cleric would obviously know an undead when they see one)
Unpopular opinion, but most metagaming doesn't have an impact unless it's really egregious. It's not the metagaming that's the issue, it's the blatant not tactful use of it.
Plus most common monsters and their weaknesses would probably be common knowledge or have fairy tales or rhymes or sayings about them in world.
What's considered metagaming can also be subjective; some people I know think that staying on high alert in taverns in case an ambush happens is metagaming EVEN IF something like that has been happening to the team recently just because it benefits the team in the long run, although I personally think it would be metagaming to NOT be on high alert just because it's a tavern.
My character has people who probably want her dead all because of things that she had no say in and basically no involvement in; just because she happened to be travelling with this one person who disagreed with them.
That depends if Undead are no more than a rumour from decades ago,
When you suddenly one day encounter one,
You might not know accurately how to deal with it.
Bit late, but I thought I'd weigh in.
I once played with someone that was a combination of a "puppetmaster", "bully", and "switch out their character every session" player. They would see something cool in a class and talk us into playing it with that specific mechanic, even if our concept was not that. If we would decline to take his recommendation, he would swap out for a character that was a better version of what we were playing. Then when we would point out that they were making our characters pointless his response would always be that "he's not, we are still able to do his recommendation better than him." I remember I once had to respec a pf2 investigator from interrogation to alchemical sciences because they built a better CHA character and felt I should be playing it as an alchemist. I still found it fun, but I didn't appreciate having my hand forced.
I've had an eternal noob.
First cronicle we played, se did as the night cast [The assasin]. Se was... unhealpful, to say the least. Never remembered the information she gathered, never remembered her abilities [Except a few wel praised moments] and never had iniciative. We had to tell her were to go becouse she block herserlf out everytime.
So, in the second cronicle I gave her the most noob friendly character I could manage to build. A Dawn cast [DPS tank] purely made to protect her teammates and do damage. After 4 years, 3 out of 5 close calls of tpk and the actual last tpk, was her fault.
She went in the group becouse she wanted to date one of the players. But then he got married. And the focus just... vanished.
11. I have no problems with switching. But I have a “Chaos Fog” which eats pcs. But I had a diverse group or we were on military schedules.
12. The info dump. Drops lore, or other into at the drop of comment. Even if not needed. This especially troublesome if causes the table to drift. Reminding them to we here to play the game helps.
Yeah dealing with simple mechanics in meta gaming with reference to any monster, if they have a weakness to a certain thing and everyone knows it, I just change it to something else. Keeps people on their toes.