The scene where Larry admits to the "crime" of stealing Edgeworths lunch money is also simultaneously hilarious and underrated, it's just great Capcom went that extra mile to resolve an issue that insignificant at the very end to fully wrap things up
The lunch money case started the whole game (not IS-7) because if it wasn't for that then phoenix wouldn't have even considered becoming an attorney, meaning that the first case of TAT would've had no impact in his career choice at all and he would've became an artist instead, the whole franchise started because some kid stole some lunch money
@@unstopable_rob Objection, it's still IS-7. Without Edgeworth as a prosecutor, Phoenix would still be in art school. Most likely would have been against Payne for Turnabout Beginnings, so Dahlia never murders Diego, because the case would have been wrapped up with Gumshoe still a witness.
@vinccool96 Diego would still be poisoned because the poisoning had nothing to do with Miles, it would be Manfred as a prosecutor because he gave his trial to Miles
Despite all these years Von Karma still feels line the true final boss of Ace Attorney, he changes the gameplay so much by not letting witnesses speak and almost got you to loose several times
And what's great here is that.. he just gone back to his cold and unfazed demeanor after the breakdown... I say... This CASE is the best case.. Rank it no. 1 Rank 2 is the Turnabout for tomorrow on AA:DD and man that case was insanity
My favourite prosecutor in the game. Its cute and all when edgeworth helps you solve the case but a prosecutor that fights you at every point is far more fun to face.
Dl-6 was just such a good case, at first it’s like “ohhh look at this scary old man who killed edgeworths dad” but later on you learn, how good of a man Gregory was or how von karma manipulated edgeworth, it makes that victory so much more special after you know what dl-6 did, once you play the game you’re like “damn this old man killed Mia and made misty leave, damn what would’ve happend if he didn’t get caught” it’s such a sad impactful case, turnabout goodbyes was cool and all but dl-6 man it did so much all for the series.
All I remember perfectly of the case is being terrified of Von Karma in the Evidence room because his front facing sprites made him look like someone tried to mix Scrooge with the Grinch and then paste the face back on a human body.
Von Karma is probably the best lawyer in the series because, frankly, he acts like an actual lawyer does. When in court, both the prosecution and the defense will throw out objections to either hide information or stall for time to allow their witness time to think about that question or ice them much like in sports. Von Karma played out the courtroom how you might actually see things go down which is surprising to see. This really hammers in Von Karma as the villain too as you see his main point isn't to find the truth, its to win the case and get the guilty verdict. The other point being that when Nick usually presses witnesses like he does, the prosecution is usually twiddling their thumbs, but Von Karma actually takes action to either call out the bs more often than usual or once again attempt to hide information to win the case.
@@Grimmlocked I'm afraid to ask. But what do you mean by that? I know the Japanese judicial system is fucked and rigged in favour of the prosecution, but... MVK level bullshit is something I don't expect to actually see in non-fictional court.
@@cawareyoudoin7379 sorry I just hate the legal system right now. The city is eminent domaining my parents place. And the Judge on the case is formally the lead legal council for the contractor doing the infrastructure work the city is seizing the property for.
"Mr. Wright, what are you doing?" "Thinking." "You have been sitting there for like, I don't know, 2 hours." "I'm thinking, Apollo. I'm thinking." "About what?" "Why Grossberg was at the boat house." "...What?"
This is my favourite case of the whole series followed by the Inherited Turnabout, which is closely related to this case through DL-6. I love each and every character so much and everything falls into place so well. One thing that always bothered me though, was that Yogi was declared not guilty through him being not of sound mind. This makes it weird for Misty to be ridiculed because if this was the believed outcome, Gregory and Misty were still both correct (although it turns out they weren’t of course). Also, couldn’t DL-6 have been solved by simply testing the gun for fingerprints?
@@alexinabox6931 I wouldn't say it's not good at all. The villain is decent and the characters in general are pretty good. However, it is an absolute mess, introducing questions all throughout the case that don't get answered until the last few minutes. It goes on for too long and you don't ever have a clean sense of progression.
I haven't played the first game in years, and wow... I forgot how amazingly complex the case and characters were. Great analysis! 24:38 Even though von Karma being the killer is classic Ace Attorney as you mentioned, I genuinely was shocked that he was the killer. This is because there was no precedent or Ace Attorney formula to rely on, thus making the reveal shocking for me in the moment, but it's only obvious in hindsight after playing through the rest of the series.
One thing I love about this (which made me know that Edgeworth wasn't the killer straight away) is the intro shows that Edgeworth isn't the killer. The pistol is clearly shown in Yogi's left hand, and then it cuts to Edgeworth holding the pistol in his right hand. After I saw that I knew that Edgeworth wasn't the killer. While I do prefer Farewell and Bridge to Goodbyes, Goodbyes was probably the case that made me fully enjoy the series (It was a shame that I followed it up by playing The Lost Turnabout directly afterwards and that soured my mood that day).
I personally think it does mess up the flow of events a bit. Edgeworth "never set foot in court again" but actually he had one final case that he was completely fine with taking and then left right after. Edgeworth used plenty of dirty tactics when we met him in the first game and IIRC Phoenix even mentally labeled him as "someone who forges evidence" but actually he never did anything (strictly) wrong ever and the rumors about him manipulating evidence were not even his fault poor guy. I mean, not that it still doesn't fit well enough, but it's definitely not a seamless fit lol
23:40 I could agree with Larry not being a defendant we care that much about (we just assume it’s important for Nick because he said so) however it’s not necessary since we already have a big motivation, we see how much of an asshole Sawith is (first killing in cold blood and then light heartily accuse someone else In freaking court) compared to Larry (Which is just a not bad goofy naive guy) and having the latter guilty instead of the Former is just unbearable. I disagree completely about tournabout sisters. It is amazing because it make us sympathize with Maya instantly as we know her just the way Nick does (plus her adorable conversation with her sister at the beginning), we see her first cry, then thrown in jail immediately, then desperate as literally no one is on her side and she’s going to be found guilty because someone else framed her. Since the very beginning the case make us understand she was cherished by Mia (our amazing and kind teacher) and so we should as well. The events leading to Wright standing in front of Maya before deciding to defend her made him understand how desperate this trial was going to be to the point he thought “that’s the reason I chose to become a defense attorney, to help the ones who have no one on their side”. (That was the moment I realized how amazing was this game’s writing) I think people sometimes underestimate Tournabout sisters, most of the last phase of the trial is just ok but the introduction to that point and the introduction of Miles Edgeworth are amazing and makes the game engaging like very few other games.
I agree. I started playing Ace Attorney and let me tell you, I wanted to help Larry, he seemed as such a nice guy. I wanted to defend Maya, I felt really sorry for her. Her sister died in front of her eyes, yet they declared that she killed her for some reason. With Powers, I mostly wanted to know what happenef, but also he seemed like a good guy, but I didn't wanted to defend this guy like Larry or Maya of course!
Shout out to Turnabout: An Ace Attorney Musical for coincidently implementing most of your suggested plot changes years ago when adapting the case for a musical format
My theory about 1-2 is that Edgeworth actually did think it was Phoenix right up until Redd White broke down on the stand, and I also think that while he has a character arc and development, elements of his character are consistent throughout the series. Basically, I think even early on Edgeworth is a mix of his father's logic and concern for the truth, and the methods of setting (sometimes underhanded, but never quite illegal) traps that von Karma taught him. His motivations from Manfred are very different, I think Edgeworth does actually care whether or not they get the right person, and is actually concerned from the beginning that the von Karma methods might mean he doesn't (Unnecessary feelings, even if he doesn't bring it up in 1-2 but 1-3). His statement in 1-2 isn't that everyone is guilty or that he wants to get everyone declared guilty, innocent or not, or that his focus is maintaining a perfect record like von Karma (though Phoenix and others assume this about him, even into the second game), but rather on some level he can never be fully certain who is guilty or innocent because the guilty will lie. He has his own uncertainty about his own possible guilt that is constantly eating away at him, and while he's smug, and arrogant, he cares about the evidence and (perhaps naively) believes in the work that the police department and prosecution office do. He's "Miles," the soldier following orders, "Mitsurugi" the sword honed by Karma. Essentially, for 1-2 I think he thought Nick was guilty and he prosecuting Maya in the hopes of drawing the truth out about Phoenix's involvement, since Maya doesn't actually make much sense as a culprit. Think about Edgeworth's opinions about defense attorneys after DL-6 and Hammond, and what Manfred encouraged him to think, that they're untrustworthy and scummy. Given that, I think he might find it completely reasonable to imagine that his old childhood friend changed drastically if he became a defense attorney, much like Miles would feel he himself did, and thus might think Phoenix might have betrayed Mia out of greed (trying to take over the law firm). Then I think Edgeworth would think Phoenix took Maya's case in order to set her up in his stead for his crime, that even as a rookie Phoenix is an "untrustworthy" defense attorney who'd know how to manipulate the legal system a lot more than some teenage girl from some mountain village. He's aware that Redd White is involved, but at the time doesn't have reason to think he wasn't with April May, she ordered two drinks for them both to establish that alibi. So from Edgeworth's perspective Redd White and April May would have identical testimony, and be redundant, and he's also been told by the prosecution office not to bring in Redd White because he's a rich media mogul who'll drag the public office through the mud if they waste his time (there's probably people being blackmailed too, which I'm not sure he knows). Plus, given April May was with him in a single hotel room, that might look scandalous, so in exchange for her testimony, he tried not to reveal Redd White. For the updated autopsy report, he literally has access to the coroners and the court treats it as legit, he has no reason to forge it even though that's what Phoenix suspects. Lastly, the wiretap, Edgeworth knows that White set a wiretap, but instead of thinking that it was the reason for the murder, Edgeworth thinks Redd White has proof of Phoenix's motive through it. It's only until Mia shows up with the list that it clearly becomes the other way around. You'll also notice in the next chapter he doesn't act like he thinks the 1-2 verdict was wrong or that Phoenix is still guilty, because I think Phoenix convinced him. While it's possible that he doesn't act like that because he knew Phoenix was innocent all along, his conversation with Phoenix where he talks about his uncertainty about guilt doesn't make sense under that scenario. I also feel like 1-2 is a mislead set up for 1-3 and 1-4 where it's revealed that Edgeworth is not as horrible as he seemed in 1-2, and is mostly being manipulated by the people around him. Which carries over into 1-5, which I think was written with the intention to make this even clearer.
Your breakdown of this is just brilliant and I thought you should know it 👍 Perspective shifts like this can be a big lift but they're so satisfying when fully deciphered!
Thing is, from edgeworth's pov, why wouldn't phoenix wright refuse to take maya's case? Because, if he were to prove her innocent, wouldnt that mean that phoenix wright would be the one taking the blame instead?
@@dylanzlol7293 The theory would suggest Edgeworth would be assuming that Phoenix is not going to win her case, or that he would even deliberately throw it. Like this is Edgeworth, he dislikes defense attorneys and Hammond using cheap tricks to win is something that has left a major mark on him, so attorneys doing the opposite for self-benefit might also be a thing he suspects
@@dylanzlol7293 My comments about Edgeworth's thoughts about Phoenix taking the case are speculative, but in addition to the conversation in 1-2 there's a few other lines and bits of context that also lend itself to this conclusion. Edgeworth hates criminals, part of his trauma is thinking the DL-6 culprit got away. His line in 1-2 and his actions in 1-3 suggest that If he thought someone besides a defendant did it, he wouldn't be deliberately letting the real criminal get away just for his win record. We see this a bit in the investigations game, when even a younger brattier Edgeworth questions a police arrest because he doubts their presumed culprit did it, and he even goes against Manfred von Karma's opinion to do so. Gant outright compares Edgeworth's motivations to his own, saying that he knows Edgeworth hates criminals and that same mindset is what led Gant to doing everything possible to catch criminals even if injust or illegal. Gant's comments clearly hit Edgeworth hard. As such Edgeworth has to truly think a defendant is guilty if he decides to take a case to court. It's basically massive projection on his part about his own personal trauma uncertainty about whether he might actually be guilty over DL-6.
You know what is really dumb: When Phoenix and Maya bump into Manfred in the records room, Phoenix presents the note found in Yogi's home in order to have Manfred drop the case against Edgeworth. Manfred reacts BY OPENLY ADMITING TO BOTH PHOENIX AND MAYA THAT HE WROTE THAT NOTE. Imagin if a cop walked in the records room in order to collect something and overheard Manfred saying that he master minded the Robert murder. And you know what? This problem could been easaly avoided and this is how I would have done it: When and Phoenix and Maya bump into Manfred and Phoenix presents the note to him in order for charces against Edgeworth to be dropped, Manfred comments that he finds it very convenient that the note has instructions on it that directly back up the theory presented in court earlier and warns Phoenix not to present it in court. After saying this, Manfred leaves and our heroes notice that Manfred took all of the DL6 evidence with him. Then while Phoenix is sleeping, Maya (of screen) schedules a meeting with Edgeworth and there she tells him that Manfred took all of the DL6 evidence. Edgeworth finds this strange and desides to tell Maya how to break into Manfred's office without being noticed. Upon her being there, she noticed that she can only take the bullet as taking anything else would slow her down, so she does and the next day she brings Phoenix up to speed in the defendent lobby. When court commences, Phoenix presents the note, detailing how Yogi killed Robert and framed Edgeworth. Manfred than accuses Phoenix of forging set note, but has to retract that claim when Yogi confesses to the murder.
Great premise unfortunately there's the issue of Miles telling Maya how to break into Manfred's office 1) I doubt he'd do that even in pursuit of the truth especially if he's convinced himself he's guilty because of his nightmares 2) That would HAVE to come up in court and Manfred would call Maya and Miles out on the crime of B&E (breaking and entering for those who don't know) because he's not stupid. He'd tell the judge that the evidence was under his protection and if the defense has it they must've broken into his office. (If I'm not mistaken that's actually a plot point in a later case or two)
@@chrisriley2321 ok fine, here is my revision: When Manfred is about to leave, Phoenix and Maya point out that Manfred just took all the DL6 evidence. Phoenix desides to block Manfred from leaving, as he believes that Manfred wasn't given permission to take the all of the evidence and has Maya fetch Gumshoe in order to check with the chief of that's the case. Manfred, not wanting to be hold up, whips out his tazer in order to subdue our heroes, but as Maya get's tazed, she pick-pockets the bullet of Manfred's person.
@@spouwnerring I like that one. And it could show that Phoenix is willing to stoop low early in the series like he does later in Apollo Justice. Of course Manfred has to call him out on it still but both were really good ideas I applaud your creativity
Manfred accusing Phoenix of forging the letter to prove his theory would be incredibly in character. You have only Grossman's word that the letter was written in Von Karma's handwriting, one would think that Von Karma would have written it with a machine to sidestep that issue, but he could have definitely gotten away with accusing Phoenix of making it up to sustain his theory.
4:30 What is also great about the intro, is the fact that it reveals the TRUTH if you noticed some details. I don't wanna mention it out because maybe there is someone reading my comment hasn't played the game yet. This detail got me extremly hooked from the very beginning of the case :)
I like this case because its one of the times that Larry is useful in a way. And I like that since he always gets the bottem end of the stick... -if thats the right metaphor-
it's a bit of a different dynamic but I feel Von karma eventually gets topped by Blaise DeBeste, from Prosecutor's Path, in a couple of ways. Blaise knows how to wield his authority at least as well as Manfred does.... and he has WAY more authority. Tying him to Manfred's dirt was also really good but Blaise goes even beyond that. He also ties Investigations 2 in the same way that DL-6 ties PWAA together so they DID catch lightning in a bottle twice, I guess
When you talked about that if the first game flopped and never had the sequels, it would become a cult classic because how well constructed the story is as its own, it reminded me that's basically what happened with ghost trick. It didn't flopped sales wise but it did become a beloved game that every fan begs for other people to play it (and if you hadn't you should) for a lot of factors, including on how the story is also well constructed on its own (and with no need for a sequel in my opinion).
This is a really interesting analysis video! This is my favorite case so far and it's because of all the reasons you said. It's relatively well-written with build-up and character growth and change. Manfred von Karma is only physically present in this one case during the trilogy but has such a huge impact on everything going forward.
This really was an engaging case, even if I don't love all of its structure the emotional weight it holds is STELLAR and was one of the cases that made Ace Attorney what it was. It also introduced one of my favorite characters, Manfred Von Karma, to the mix. He's literally the worst and is painfully amusing to watch though he has some well written intricacies that's not often picked up on ( I'd recommend Wendy Rocket's video on him). A comparison between the anime and game would be interesting actually.
In the Anime adaptation of this Case They keep in Larry being the one who stole the money when they were kids But also, Lotta is not in the Anime version of the Case Instead she's Replaced by Larry
I think Phoenix is the yang to von Karma's yin, since yin represents the dark side and yang represents the good. Many people confuse this cuz yin is colored white and yang is colored black
In my first playthrough of Turnabout Goodbyes, I got to the very end of the case (even after the parrot scene, I believe), but somehow I got a screen where I couldn't win, because it had 2 wrong options and I had only 1 mistake left to do, so I got stuck there because I had saved my game in that screen, so I unfortunately had to restart the whole case all over again. And while it was a dreadful experience, I still quite enjoyed revisiting the trial, which goes to show how great of a trial it really is.
Wow it was a really great analysis about this case. Hoping to see more video like that. Also, do you know other Ace Attorney RUclipsr/content creator ? 😁
As much as this is a brilliant case, which it is, I find it interesting that the scene in the elevator is not criticised in the same way that the Blue Badger security tape and The Guitar's Serenade are for the number of times it plays.
Idk about the Guitar Serenade as I've not played that game, but the music probably is why it's criticised as often as Blue Badger. The Blue Badger theme is annoying to hear, whereas the DL-6 music is a pretty good track.
I have seen a number of people complain about overdisplaying the elevator image if it would be disrespectful in the moment to Mr Edgeworth or his late father. This is the most significant event in his past that needed a resolution. As for the other videos we're seeing a lengthy piece of content multiple times in one sitting and combing over them repeatedly. While it might be detective-y, it's not a fun video on a 5th view. There's a time for the elevator.
@@jdosser The song in Guitar Serenade is substantially more pleasant than Blue Badger theme. It's just quantity of viewings that did it. 4-3 did a lot of questionable things as fate would have it.
The thing with Von Karma responding perfectly to everything Phoenix does is that, in the majority of the cases, the defendant is set up by the real culprit and the prosecution falls for it. Von Karma isn't falling for the set up of the real culprit, he's the one who told the culprit what to do and how, and not even Phoenix could have proven it. He's running the show even more than any other prosecutor. Also, he's the only one that comes off as a real perfectionist. Other prosecutors come off as haughty but (for plot purposes) they must make mistakes and get tricked by the real culprit. Von Karma is the real culprit and mastermind, he doesn't overlook evidence, the evidence found is exactly what he wants to be found and nothing else. In fact, is perfectionism is his fatal flaw. He taunts Phoenix about cross-examinating the parrot after Phoenix already gave up, just to show off and it goes badly in an unexpected way. He got away with being the mastermind behind Yogi's murder, and he got away with killing Gregory Edgeworth for 15 years, only because he tried to get Edgeworth declared guilty of that crime in court, he ended up getting discovered. Before that, after using a spirit medium, the police never suspected him, and Miles was even convinced that he had killed his own father. No one even knew that he had been shot. But that wasn't enough, he had to go the extra mile to get the perfect win and that was his downfall.
There is probably one more change i would make to the case on top of your suggestions: make larry object just a little sooner. This case set up the precedent to wait until the game fully boots you out after failure, whereas Larry easily could have objected before the fake out sentencing. Whether or not the drama is worth it will be different for different players, and i know i am not alone in assuming I, as the player, did something wrong against yani's cross examination up until i run out of possibilities. It remains an issue in later cases as well, but by those points, the possibility of the deus ex machina has been established in the series. It would always be a difficult idea to introduce without angering players, and this one does it well, but there are definitely better ways to do it, like showing it early when the player doesnt have many options to mess around with. Great Ace Attorney does it better with the introduction of the jury pitting system, while achieving the same effect. It also does a lot to keep the player in control by telling them "you will always have a second chance" and "sometimes you dont have all the evidence to progress through the cross examination".
the best case by far from the first ace attorney game, it's my favorite case of all time (i haven't played trials and tribulations yet so my opinion can change)
why did they hold a trial for something Miles might have done at the age of nine??? like hello age of legal responsibility? yes it was needed for the story to progress and Miles to finally let go of that subconscious guilt, but it doesn't make sense for it to happen in court. i would've liked it more if it was more of an unofficial investigation. would've been sweet if Miles told Phoenix to get it off his chest, Phoenix saw how much he was suffering from this and went "fuck it dude i'm going to prove you didn't". the exact same thing could've happened as it did in the actual game just not in a courtroom because that's not logical at all
I quit the game for a long time because turnabout samurai BURNED ME OUT , like I found most of the characters annoying and the case was kinda stretched out so it was a big meh for me. But when I returned for the later I didnt expect I would play my favourite case in the trilogy and maybe the series!
Wait why didn't they just smash the windows And don't say that it would be made stronger because criminals would be in the elevator, they would be taken up stairs, what if a earthquake happened they would die...
I also got two small issues with the case. The first one is the same as you. I hated the lake monster [side]quest. It could have been shorter. My second issue is the parrot. It takes months to train them and Karma did it a day so the defense couldn't get the information they need out of the parrot. And it wasn't even a full day because of the trial. They still got some information out of the parrot so the part on how Karma trained the parrot was also unneeded IMO.
To simply put it, they get less views, even as a active member in the aa community I’m still yet to play dd and soj (although I’m trying so hard to play them) and I’m not the first or last person to be like that, dd and soj just get less views on platforms like youtube
I wouldn't say perfect. Overall great but cross examining the parrot was convoluted with the whole same name as his wife who gets mentioned once thing.
That's not a correct interpretation of Yin-Yang, it doesn't represent adversarial opposites, it represents complementary opposites. Phoenix and Edgeworth are a better representation of a Yin-Yang relationship than von Karma.
Von Karma is a terrible villain only being able to seem as a threat because the Judge is a wimp that doesn't do his job. I don't understand why fans praise him so much
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The scene where Larry admits to the "crime" of stealing Edgeworths lunch money is also simultaneously hilarious and underrated, it's just great Capcom went that extra mile to resolve an issue that insignificant at the very end to fully wrap things up
The lunch money case started the whole game (not IS-7) because if it wasn't for that then phoenix wouldn't have even considered becoming an attorney, meaning that the first case of TAT would've had no impact in his career choice at all and he would've became an artist instead, the whole franchise started because some kid stole some lunch money
@@unstopable_rob Objection, it's still IS-7. Without Edgeworth as a prosecutor, Phoenix would still be in art school. Most likely would have been against Payne for Turnabout Beginnings, so Dahlia never murders Diego, because the case would have been wrapped up with Gumshoe still a witness.
@vinccool96 Diego would still be poisoned because the poisoning had nothing to do with Miles, it would be Manfred as a prosecutor because he gave his trial to Miles
@@unstopable_rob If it's Manfred, then Fawles would have been guilty with Gumshoe's testimony only, so no Dahlia
@vinccool96 against Armando? I doubt that, if that was the case then it would've happened with Miles who was trained by Manfred
The whole trilogy of ace attorney would never happen if Gregory Edgeworth took the stairs.
HELP SHDJS
or if he took a different lift
True
Despite all these years Von Karma still feels line the true final boss of Ace Attorney, he changes the gameplay so much by not letting witnesses speak and almost got you to loose several times
And what's great here is that.. he just gone back to his cold and unfazed demeanor after the breakdown... I say... This CASE is the best case.. Rank it no. 1 Rank 2 is the Turnabout for tomorrow on AA:DD and man that case was insanity
My favourite prosecutor in the game. Its cute and all when edgeworth helps you solve the case but a prosecutor that fights you at every point is far more fun to face.
Dl-6 was just such a good case, at first it’s like “ohhh look at this scary old man who killed edgeworths dad” but later on you learn, how good of a man Gregory was or how von karma manipulated edgeworth, it makes that victory so much more special after you know what dl-6 did, once you play the game you’re like “damn this old man killed Mia and made misty leave, damn what would’ve happend if he didn’t get caught” it’s such a sad impactful case, turnabout goodbyes was cool and all but dl-6 man it did so much all for the series.
Wanna hear another (brutal) case? Ur-1 (don’t look up unless you’ve played dual destinies)
@@Number.1Yanfei.Fan123 IS-7 is heavy af. And sets everything in motion.
All I remember perfectly of the case is being terrified of Von Karma in the Evidence room because his front facing sprites made him look like someone tried to mix Scrooge with the Grinch and then paste the face back on a human body.
The PWAA Trilogy does not miss on finale cases. If you're here you hopefully already feel this way.
Bravo to the writers.
Judge: not guil-
Objection!
edgeworth: ah well you see, updated autopsy report.
I remember watching the cutscene and thinking "oh they are going to reveal the killer in the cutscene ag-- EDGEWORTH WTF???"
It's worth the first two killers being spoiled just to set up for this moment
Von Karma is probably the best lawyer in the series because, frankly, he acts like an actual lawyer does. When in court, both the prosecution and the defense will throw out objections to either hide information or stall for time to allow their witness time to think about that question or ice them much like in sports. Von Karma played out the courtroom how you might actually see things go down which is surprising to see. This really hammers in Von Karma as the villain too as you see his main point isn't to find the truth, its to win the case and get the guilty verdict.
The other point being that when Nick usually presses witnesses like he does, the prosecution is usually twiddling their thumbs, but Von Karma actually takes action to either call out the bs more often than usual or once again attempt to hide information to win the case.
Well, I would hope actual lawyers aren't allowed to do the shit he's allowed to pull off, like intimidating the judge and witnesses.
@@cawareyoudoin7379 you'd be surprised
@@Grimmlocked I'm afraid to ask. But what do you mean by that? I know the Japanese judicial system is fucked and rigged in favour of the prosecution, but... MVK level bullshit is something I don't expect to actually see in non-fictional court.
@@cawareyoudoin7379 sorry I just hate the legal system right now. The city is eminent domaining my parents place. And the Judge on the case is formally the lead legal council for the contractor doing the infrastructure work the city is seizing the property for.
And the city has been delaying the cas over and over again to try to run my parents out of financial resources to continue their suit.
Phoenix in 20 years:"....
But why was Grossberg at the boat house?"
von Karma sent him there to throw us off the sent, you naive fools!
@@prosecutorwalton von karma no!
He was on the walk
@@ninjaamber Love to see the RT fans here.
"Mr. Wright, what are you doing?"
"Thinking."
"You have been sitting there for like, I don't know, 2 hours."
"I'm thinking, Apollo. I'm thinking."
"About what?"
"Why Grossberg was at the boat house."
"...What?"
This is my favourite case of the whole series followed by the Inherited Turnabout, which is closely related to this case through DL-6. I love each and every character so much and everything falls into place so well. One thing that always bothered me though, was that Yogi was declared not guilty through him being not of sound mind. This makes it weird for Misty to be ridiculed because if this was the believed outcome, Gregory and Misty were still both correct (although it turns out they weren’t of course). Also, couldn’t DL-6 have been solved by simply testing the gun for fingerprints?
Von karma wouldn’t be dumb enough to leave fingerprints on the gun, especially as a prosecutor. He probably wiped them off.
actually, yanni yogi wasn't declared guilty but got off on an insanity plea, they claimed he was too insane to have commited the crime
Sorry but Inherited Turnabout is a complete bastardisation of Goodbyes. It's not good at all.
@@alexinabox6931 I wouldn't say it's not good at all. The villain is decent and the characters in general are pretty good. However, it is an absolute mess, introducing questions all throughout the case that don't get answered until the last few minutes. It goes on for too long and you don't ever have a clean sense of progression.
Von karma wiped away all fingerprints from the gun, including Miles’ fingerprints after he shot gregory
I haven't played the first game in years, and wow... I forgot how amazingly complex the case and characters were. Great analysis!
24:38 Even though von Karma being the killer is classic Ace Attorney as you mentioned, I genuinely was shocked that he was the killer. This is because there was no precedent or Ace Attorney formula to rely on, thus making the reveal shocking for me in the moment, but it's only obvious in hindsight after playing through the rest of the series.
One thing I love about this (which made me know that Edgeworth wasn't the killer straight away) is the intro shows that Edgeworth isn't the killer. The pistol is clearly shown in Yogi's left hand, and then it cuts to Edgeworth holding the pistol in his right hand. After I saw that I knew that Edgeworth wasn't the killer. While I do prefer Farewell and Bridge to Goodbyes, Goodbyes was probably the case that made me fully enjoy the series (It was a shame that I followed it up by playing The Lost Turnabout directly afterwards and that soured my mood that day).
man, what a great finale to an awesome game! i sure hope there’s no other case after this that messes with the continuity of the timeline!
RTFA fits in perfectly fine in my opinion
@@tbone415 i know, it’s just a little joke. phoenix’s character arc comes off as a bit wonky though.
I personally think it does mess up the flow of events a bit. Edgeworth "never set foot in court again" but actually he had one final case that he was completely fine with taking and then left right after. Edgeworth used plenty of dirty tactics when we met him in the first game and IIRC Phoenix even mentally labeled him as "someone who forges evidence" but actually he never did anything (strictly) wrong ever and the rumors about him manipulating evidence were not even his fault poor guy. I mean, not that it still doesn't fit well enough, but it's definitely not a seamless fit lol
23:40
I could agree with Larry not being a defendant we care that much about (we just assume it’s important for Nick because he said so) however it’s not necessary since we already have a big motivation, we see how much of an asshole Sawith is (first killing in cold blood and then light heartily accuse someone else In freaking court) compared to Larry (Which is just a not bad goofy naive guy) and having the latter guilty instead of the Former is just unbearable.
I disagree completely about tournabout sisters. It is amazing because it make us sympathize with Maya instantly as we know her just the way Nick does (plus her adorable conversation with her sister at the beginning), we see her first cry, then thrown in jail immediately, then desperate as literally no one is on her side and she’s going to be found guilty because someone else framed her. Since the very beginning the case make us understand she was cherished by Mia (our amazing and kind teacher) and so we should as well. The events leading to Wright standing in front of Maya before deciding to defend her made him understand how desperate this trial was going to be to the point he thought “that’s the reason I chose to become a defense attorney, to help the ones who have no one on their side”. (That was the moment I realized how amazing was this game’s writing)
I think people sometimes underestimate Tournabout sisters, most of the last phase of the trial is just ok but the introduction to that point and the introduction of Miles Edgeworth are amazing and makes the game engaging like very few other games.
I agree. I started playing Ace Attorney and let me tell you, I wanted to help Larry, he seemed as such a nice guy. I wanted to defend Maya, I felt really sorry for her. Her sister died in front of her eyes, yet they declared that she killed her for some reason. With Powers, I mostly wanted to know what happenef, but also he seemed like a good guy, but I didn't wanted to defend this guy like Larry or Maya of course!
played this when I was like 7. it made me feel things. "I'll never be an asshole like von karma frfr"
Shout out to Turnabout: An Ace Attorney Musical for coincidently implementing most of your suggested plot changes years ago when adapting the case for a musical format
My theory about 1-2 is that Edgeworth actually did think it was Phoenix right up until Redd White broke down on the stand, and I also think that while he has a character arc and development, elements of his character are consistent throughout the series. Basically, I think even early on Edgeworth is a mix of his father's logic and concern for the truth, and the methods of setting (sometimes underhanded, but never quite illegal) traps that von Karma taught him. His motivations from Manfred are very different, I think Edgeworth does actually care whether or not they get the right person, and is actually concerned from the beginning that the von Karma methods might mean he doesn't (Unnecessary feelings, even if he doesn't bring it up in 1-2 but 1-3).
His statement in 1-2 isn't that everyone is guilty or that he wants to get everyone declared guilty, innocent or not, or that his focus is maintaining a perfect record like von Karma (though Phoenix and others assume this about him, even into the second game), but rather on some level he can never be fully certain who is guilty or innocent because the guilty will lie. He has his own uncertainty about his own possible guilt that is constantly eating away at him, and while he's smug, and arrogant, he cares about the evidence and (perhaps naively) believes in the work that the police department and prosecution office do. He's "Miles," the soldier following orders, "Mitsurugi" the sword honed by Karma.
Essentially, for 1-2 I think he thought Nick was guilty and he prosecuting Maya in the hopes of drawing the truth out about Phoenix's involvement, since Maya doesn't actually make much sense as a culprit. Think about Edgeworth's opinions about defense attorneys after DL-6 and Hammond, and what Manfred encouraged him to think, that they're untrustworthy and scummy. Given that, I think he might find it completely reasonable to imagine that his old childhood friend changed drastically if he became a defense attorney, much like Miles would feel he himself did, and thus might think Phoenix might have betrayed Mia out of greed (trying to take over the law firm). Then I think Edgeworth would think Phoenix took Maya's case in order to set her up in his stead for his crime, that even as a rookie Phoenix is an "untrustworthy" defense attorney who'd know how to manipulate the legal system a lot more than some teenage girl from some mountain village.
He's aware that Redd White is involved, but at the time doesn't have reason to think he wasn't with April May, she ordered two drinks for them both to establish that alibi. So from Edgeworth's perspective Redd White and April May would have identical testimony, and be redundant, and he's also been told by the prosecution office not to bring in Redd White because he's a rich media mogul who'll drag the public office through the mud if they waste his time (there's probably people being blackmailed too, which I'm not sure he knows). Plus, given April May was with him in a single hotel room, that might look scandalous, so in exchange for her testimony, he tried not to reveal Redd White. For the updated autopsy report, he literally has access to the coroners and the court treats it as legit, he has no reason to forge it even though that's what Phoenix suspects. Lastly, the wiretap, Edgeworth knows that White set a wiretap, but instead of thinking that it was the reason for the murder, Edgeworth thinks Redd White has proof of Phoenix's motive through it. It's only until Mia shows up with the list that it clearly becomes the other way around.
You'll also notice in the next chapter he doesn't act like he thinks the 1-2 verdict was wrong or that Phoenix is still guilty, because I think Phoenix convinced him. While it's possible that he doesn't act like that because he knew Phoenix was innocent all along, his conversation with Phoenix where he talks about his uncertainty about guilt doesn't make sense under that scenario. I also feel like 1-2 is a mislead set up for 1-3 and 1-4 where it's revealed that Edgeworth is not as horrible as he seemed in 1-2, and is mostly being manipulated by the people around him. Which carries over into 1-5, which I think was written with the intention to make this even clearer.
Your breakdown of this is just brilliant and I thought you should know it 👍 Perspective shifts like this can be a big lift but they're so satisfying when fully deciphered!
Thing is, from edgeworth's pov, why wouldn't phoenix wright refuse to take maya's case? Because, if he were to prove her innocent, wouldnt that mean that phoenix wright would be the one taking the blame instead?
@@dylanzlol7293 The theory would suggest Edgeworth would be assuming that Phoenix is not going to win her case, or that he would even deliberately throw it. Like this is Edgeworth, he dislikes defense attorneys and Hammond using cheap tricks to win is something that has left a major mark on him, so attorneys doing the opposite for self-benefit might also be a thing he suspects
@@rebellemuria hm, how did you come up with this theory? Is there any specific dialogue line and/or action that led you into this conclusion?
@@dylanzlol7293 My comments about Edgeworth's thoughts about Phoenix taking the case are speculative, but in addition to the conversation in 1-2 there's a few other lines and bits of context that also lend itself to this conclusion.
Edgeworth hates criminals, part of his trauma is thinking the DL-6 culprit got away. His line in 1-2 and his actions in 1-3 suggest that If he thought someone besides a defendant did it, he wouldn't be deliberately letting the real criminal get away just for his win record. We see this a bit in the investigations game, when even a younger brattier Edgeworth questions a police arrest because he doubts their presumed culprit did it, and he even goes against Manfred von Karma's opinion to do so.
Gant outright compares Edgeworth's motivations to his own, saying that he knows Edgeworth hates criminals and that same mindset is what led Gant to doing everything possible to catch criminals even if injust or illegal. Gant's comments clearly hit Edgeworth hard.
As such Edgeworth has to truly think a defendant is guilty if he decides to take a case to court. It's basically massive projection on his part about his own personal trauma uncertainty about whether he might actually be guilty over DL-6.
You know what is really dumb: When Phoenix and Maya bump into Manfred in the records room, Phoenix presents the note found in Yogi's home in order to have Manfred drop the case against Edgeworth. Manfred reacts BY OPENLY ADMITING TO BOTH PHOENIX AND MAYA THAT HE WROTE THAT NOTE. Imagin if a cop walked in the records room in order to collect something and overheard Manfred saying that he master minded the Robert murder.
And you know what? This problem could been easaly avoided and this is how I would have done it: When and Phoenix and Maya bump into Manfred and Phoenix presents the note to him in order for charces against Edgeworth to be dropped, Manfred comments that he finds it very convenient that the note has instructions on it that directly back up the theory presented in court earlier and warns Phoenix not to present it in court. After saying this, Manfred leaves and our heroes notice that Manfred took all of the DL6 evidence with him. Then while Phoenix is sleeping, Maya (of screen) schedules a meeting with Edgeworth and there she tells him that Manfred took all of the DL6 evidence. Edgeworth finds this strange and desides to tell Maya how to break into Manfred's office without being noticed. Upon her being there, she noticed that she can only take the bullet as taking anything else would slow her down, so she does and the next day she brings Phoenix up to speed in the defendent lobby. When court commences, Phoenix presents the note, detailing how Yogi killed Robert and framed Edgeworth. Manfred than accuses Phoenix of forging set note, but has to retract that claim when Yogi confesses to the murder.
Great premise unfortunately there's the issue of Miles telling Maya how to break into Manfred's office
1) I doubt he'd do that even in pursuit of the truth especially if he's convinced himself he's guilty because of his nightmares
2) That would HAVE to come up in court and Manfred would call Maya and Miles out on the crime of B&E (breaking and entering for those who don't know) because he's not stupid. He'd tell the judge that the evidence was under his protection and if the defense has it they must've broken into his office. (If I'm not mistaken that's actually a plot point in a later case or two)
@@chrisriley2321 ok fine, here is my revision: When Manfred is about to leave, Phoenix and Maya point out that Manfred just took all the DL6 evidence. Phoenix desides to block Manfred from leaving, as he believes that Manfred wasn't given permission to take the all of the evidence and has Maya fetch Gumshoe in order to check with the chief of that's the case. Manfred, not wanting to be hold up, whips out his tazer in order to subdue our heroes, but as Maya get's tazed, she pick-pockets the bullet of Manfred's person.
@@spouwnerring I like that one. And it could show that Phoenix is willing to stoop low early in the series like he does later in Apollo Justice.
Of course Manfred has to call him out on it still but both were really good ideas I applaud your creativity
Manfred accusing Phoenix of forging the letter to prove his theory would be incredibly in character. You have only Grossman's word that the letter was written in Von Karma's handwriting, one would think that Von Karma would have written it with a machine to sidestep that issue, but he could have definitely gotten away with accusing Phoenix of making it up to sustain his theory.
4:30
What is also great about the intro, is the fact that it reveals the TRUTH if you noticed some details. I don't wanna mention it out because maybe there is someone reading my comment hasn't played the game yet.
This detail got me extremly hooked from the very beginning of the case :)
Edgeworth got the beginning to his evolution as a character.
I like this case because its one of the times that Larry is useful in a way.
And I like that since he always gets the bottem end of the stick... -if thats the right metaphor-
it's a bit of a different dynamic but I feel Von karma eventually gets topped by Blaise DeBeste, from Prosecutor's Path, in a couple of ways. Blaise knows how to wield his authority at least as well as Manfred does.... and he has WAY more authority. Tying him to Manfred's dirt was also really good but Blaise goes even beyond that. He also ties Investigations 2 in the same way that DL-6 ties PWAA together so they DID catch lightning in a bottle twice, I guess
When you talked about that if the first game flopped and never had the sequels, it would become a cult classic because how well constructed the story is as its own, it reminded me that's basically what happened with ghost trick. It didn't flopped sales wise but it did become a beloved game that every fan begs for other people to play it (and if you hadn't you should) for a lot of factors, including on how the story is also well constructed on its own (and with no need for a sequel in my opinion).
Von Karma is such a good villain.
Really my favorite one, like the one with Mimi Miney and the whole possession stuff, this episode too feels like an Agatha Christie
This is a really interesting analysis video! This is my favorite case so far and it's because of all the reasons you said. It's relatively well-written with build-up and character growth and change. Manfred von Karma is only physically present in this one case during the trilogy but has such a huge impact on everything going forward.
Turnabout **Goobyes**
I hated saying bye to all the goo.
This really was an engaging case, even if I don't love all of its structure the emotional weight it holds is STELLAR and was one of the cases that made Ace Attorney what it was. It also introduced one of my favorite characters, Manfred Von Karma, to the mix. He's literally the worst and is painfully amusing to watch though he has some well written intricacies that's not often picked up on ( I'd recommend Wendy Rocket's video on him). A comparison between the anime and game would be interesting actually.
Bruh "what what I change" 25:15
In the Anime adaptation of this Case
They keep in Larry being the one who stole the money when they were kids
But also, Lotta is not in the Anime version of the Case
Instead she's Replaced by Larry
I also watched it all from zslyzer's videos, nice
"What what I change?"
12:01 the greatest Ace Attorney meme right before Christmas time
Nobody expects the -spanish inquisition- larry butz!
it's kinda camp, funny and sad at the same time. perfect
I think Phoenix is the yang to von Karma's yin, since yin represents the dark side and yang represents the good. Many people confuse this cuz yin is colored white and yang is colored black
I'm pretty sure yang is white and yin is black... but good point
In my first playthrough of Turnabout Goodbyes, I got to the very end of the case (even after the parrot scene, I believe), but somehow I got a screen where I couldn't win, because it had 2 wrong options and I had only 1 mistake left to do, so I got stuck there because I had saved my game in that screen, so I unfortunately had to restart the whole case all over again. And while it was a dreadful experience, I still quite enjoyed revisiting the trial, which goes to show how great of a trial it really is.
almost christmas means it wasn't christmas!
Wow it was a really great analysis about this case. Hoping to see more video like that. Also, do you know other Ace Attorney RUclipsr/content creator ? 😁
As much as this is a brilliant case, which it is, I find it interesting that the scene in the elevator is not criticised in the same way that the Blue Badger security tape and The Guitar's Serenade are for the number of times it plays.
Idk about the Guitar Serenade as I've not played that game, but the music probably is why it's criticised as often as Blue Badger. The Blue Badger theme is annoying to hear, whereas the DL-6 music is a pretty good track.
I have seen a number of people complain about overdisplaying the elevator image if it would be disrespectful in the moment to Mr Edgeworth or his late father. This is the most significant event in his past that needed a resolution. As for the other videos we're seeing a lengthy piece of content multiple times in one sitting and combing over them repeatedly. While it might be detective-y, it's not a fun video on a 5th view. There's a time for the elevator.
@@jdosser The song in Guitar Serenade is substantially more pleasant than Blue Badger theme.
It's just quantity of viewings that did it. 4-3 did a lot of questionable things as fate would have it.
The thing with Von Karma responding perfectly to everything Phoenix does is that, in the majority of the cases, the defendant is set up by the real culprit and the prosecution falls for it. Von Karma isn't falling for the set up of the real culprit, he's the one who told the culprit what to do and how, and not even Phoenix could have proven it. He's running the show even more than any other prosecutor. Also, he's the only one that comes off as a real perfectionist. Other prosecutors come off as haughty but (for plot purposes) they must make mistakes and get tricked by the real culprit. Von Karma is the real culprit and mastermind, he doesn't overlook evidence, the evidence found is exactly what he wants to be found and nothing else.
In fact, is perfectionism is his fatal flaw. He taunts Phoenix about cross-examinating the parrot after Phoenix already gave up, just to show off and it goes badly in an unexpected way. He got away with being the mastermind behind Yogi's murder, and he got away with killing Gregory Edgeworth for 15 years, only because he tried to get Edgeworth declared guilty of that crime in court, he ended up getting discovered. Before that, after using a spirit medium, the police never suspected him, and Miles was even convinced that he had killed his own father. No one even knew that he had been shot. But that wasn't enough, he had to go the extra mile to get the perfect win and that was his downfall.
When my friend came over, I made her watch the 4 hour gameplay of this one. In the end, I made her a narumitsu fan and manfred von karma’s hater❤️
There is probably one more change i would make to the case on top of your suggestions: make larry object just a little sooner. This case set up the precedent to wait until the game fully boots you out after failure, whereas Larry easily could have objected before the fake out sentencing. Whether or not the drama is worth it will be different for different players, and i know i am not alone in assuming I, as the player, did something wrong against yani's cross examination up until i run out of possibilities. It remains an issue in later cases as well, but by those points, the possibility of the deus ex machina has been established in the series. It would always be a difficult idea to introduce without angering players, and this one does it well, but there are definitely better ways to do it, like showing it early when the player doesnt have many options to mess around with. Great Ace Attorney does it better with the introduction of the jury pitting system, while achieving the same effect. It also does a lot to keep the player in control by telling them "you will always have a second chance" and "sometimes you dont have all the evidence to progress through the cross examination".
the best case by far from the first ace attorney game, it's my favorite case of all time (i haven't played trials and tribulations yet so my opinion can change)
goodbyes so epic
I also have a side that's forced to not
why did they hold a trial for something Miles might have done at the age of nine??? like hello age of legal responsibility? yes it was needed for the story to progress and Miles to finally let go of that subconscious guilt, but it doesn't make sense for it to happen in court. i would've liked it more if it was more of an unofficial investigation. would've been sweet if Miles told Phoenix to get it off his chest, Phoenix saw how much he was suffering from this and went "fuck it dude i'm going to prove you didn't". the exact same thing could've happened as it did in the actual game just not in a courtroom because that's not logical at all
I quit the game for a long time because turnabout samurai BURNED ME OUT , like I found most of the characters annoying and the case was kinda stretched out so it was a big meh for me. But when I returned for the later I didnt expect I would play my favourite case in the trilogy and maybe the series!
what is lotta doing there with her camera if not looking for gourdy
In 2024, the DL-6 incident would’ve happened 23 years ago
Wait why didn't they just smash the windows
And don't say that it would be made stronger because criminals would be in the elevator, they would be taken up stairs, what if a earthquake happened they would die...
Most elevators don't have windows
Most elevators don’t have windows
@@Firedragonisthebestforever yeah but this one does.
@@wintersong2266 doesnt make sense then manfred von karma wouldnt get shot
15:37 yani went /srs 💀
I also got two small issues with the case. The first one is the same as you. I hated the lake monster [side]quest. It could have been shorter. My second issue is the parrot. It takes months to train them and Karma did it a day so the defense couldn't get the information they need out of the parrot. And it wasn't even a full day because of the trial. They still got some information out of the parrot so the part on how Karma trained the parrot was also unneeded IMO.
Its kinda funny how people still discuss og trilogy after all these years (and almost no one mentions newer games)
To simply put it, they get less views, even as a active member in the aa community I’m still yet to play dd and soj (although I’m trying so hard to play them) and I’m not the first or last person to be like that, dd and soj just get less views on platforms like youtube
In my opinion Dual Destinies is the only new game that comes close to the trilogy in terms of quality
@@Almost_a_hero Would say both AAI2 and GAA2 blow trilogy out of water easily
The sequel trilogy doesnt have the same depth as the OG trilogy, focusing more on comedy than the mystery aspect and all.
@@Klonoahedgehog Case wise DD and SOJ are better than JFA and AJ tho. JFA has 2 of worst cases in series
But why was grossberg at the boat shop??
Replace the Gourdy stuff with say Christmas fireworks at it've worked better imo
"von-karmafied" is my favourite made up word I've heard
No matter how many Ace Attourney games come out, we all know the truth
Von Karma is the real final boss of the series
You forgot to mention unnecessary feelings 😂
Why did you change the thumbnail?
Had a lower click rate than normal, changed it as a test, I'll change it back if the video doesn't perform. RUclipsr stuff basically.
I wouldn't say perfect. Overall great but cross examining the parrot was convoluted with the whole same name as his wife who gets mentioned once thing.
you fell into the common beginner video essayist trap of recapping too much
I pefer it more than Rise from Ashes.
Ok but who did edgeworth kill
Based take by based tbone
Yooo
That's not a correct interpretation of Yin-Yang, it doesn't represent adversarial opposites, it represents complementary opposites. Phoenix and Edgeworth are a better representation of a Yin-Yang relationship than von Karma.
It's hilarious that this guy unironically thinks the Ace Attorney lawyers are good at their jobs.
This ratio is hilarious
@@tbone415 what's a ratio?
@@tbone415 he got done
I thought Von Karma was just trolling the case lol and Yogi bored me
Von Karma is a terrible villain only being able to seem as a threat because the Judge is a wimp that doesn't do his job.
I don't understand why fans praise him so much
He scary
Bro decided to spit straight fax.
Third
No one cares
@@Mr_BlueBanana true
!!!!!!!GOD!!!!!!! IS THE !!!!!!!KING!!!!!!! OF KINGS OF KINGS OF KINGS OF KINGS OF KINGS OF KINGS AND SO ON CONVERT TO A !!!!!!!CHRISTIAN!!!!!!! NOW AND LOVE and nice vid just nice seriously AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK EVRYONE NEEDS TO see this and MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL