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Young ladies could refuse, they could even break off engagements, but young men could not break off engagements, or they would be in breach of promise. It was the one but of power the young ladies had - if their parents let them. Refusing wasn’t necessarily a black mark on her chances for future proposals.
Um no Meg that's not how it worked. You being a deb in the 90s is not a substitute for research on a subject you clearly know nothing about. Men got to slide, no questions, they weren't considered "used goods", men got betrothed & broke engagements no questions asked throughout history in the upper classes. You need to do some reading.
@@PrettyPoppyGirl651 Me being a deb has nothing to do with me knowing about Breach of Promise. Men did not get to slide from a betrothal. Maybe you should do some reading in history yourself. Breach of Promise is an actual thing.
@@PrettyPoppyGirl651 Two seconds of googling would’ve been enough for you, Pretty Poppy, but no, you had to talk down to me and say *I* knew nothing of what I was talking about and needed to do some research. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_promise
@PrettyPoppyGirl651 Nothing Meg said was incorrect. Men could be sued for breach of promise, though the woman or her parents didn’t necessarily want such a situation to be more public than it already was.
I know what you speak of deb but it is facts, many many times men got to slide leaving the young lady in shambles. You actually both are correct. But the more powerful the girls father was the harder it was to slide.@@MegCazalet
As an introvert and Highly Sensitive Personality, the schedule the young ladies had to keep with balls every night of the week, visiting in the morning, etc. made me want to cry. God forbid a night to rest or just enjoy the quiet and read a book.
I am also an introvert and HSP so this social schedule sounds like torture! I used to attend events but now that I’m over 50 I don’t bother trying anymore. I’m just counting down to retirement and hope to find a quiet cottage in the Italian countryside. My son also mirrors me and at 27, just now getting a social life. He feels like he’s 10 years behind, but at least I’m not a grandma and he’s never been arrested! ☮️
@@carag2567 unfortunately not! She was photographed by one of the society photographers, and that has survived as a tinted picture that hangs in my mum's house.
I was part of a Black sorority debutante ball in my early 20s- I was so over it and all the social engagements we were forced to do but I loved all the girls I participated with!
I love that Jane Austen wrote that Elizabeth Bennet refused not one, but TWO proposals! And this was back in 1813 (but it was most likely written even earlier, in 1797!)
She did! But also it was not as scanalous as you'd think, they valued currency very much but being a gold digger and only marrying for money (not that it didn't happen) wasn't very well liked either- you should at least be able to bahe some affection for your partner otherwhiles it was basically said your marriage was doomed from the start.
To be honest, as a British born German citizen, Unity Mitford was just a lost soul who could just have easily become a Communist. She is a useful hate target, to distract from the Nazi supporting aristocracy in general, King Edward and Wallis, who also courted the Fuhrer. Even Elizabeth 11, Greedy Betty was exposed giving the Nazi salute... I wish Americans would stop idolising the British monarchy and aristocracy. Because, Jeez, if your taxpayers had to foot the bill... especially the rich ones, you might think differently. 😂
I can confirm (for Australia at least) that 'Presentation Balls' are still held, but mostly only at private schools. We had to take dancing lessons, and weren't allowed to pick our own partners; they were assigned according to height , and if there weren't enough of one gender to go around, they would recruit extras from the previous year's students. We didn't have to curtsey or bow to anyone, but we WERE 'presented' on stage as officially having become young adults. We weren't restricted to colour regarding our outfits. Most boys wore black or navy blue suits with white shirts, but the girls wore a mix of colours and styles according to personal taste.
Admittedly my debutant ball was about 30 years ago now so things may have changed. My ball was not associated with my school at all so anyone was able to be presented. It was more of a traditional Debutant Ball where we all wore lovely white dresses and were presented (I think to the mayor or some politician) we were able to choose our own partners but we did have to do the dancing lessons. Oh and I am Australian also.
@@emmylou78 TBH mine was about 15 years ago, so my info may also be out of date. My school stopped requiring white dresses maybe 5 or so years before my ball, but it's probably different for everybody
@@mikamakawee3321 I was still in school when I was presented. Also Debutante balls are no longer about “finding a husband” they are an old tradition that has kept going as a coming of age for young women. On top of that I would like to say that I also went to work after finishing school, chose to never get married and have a career. And I am very happy with how my life turned out. Marriage is not going to make you happy. If you are having trouble finding someone who will love you try loving yourself first. Having had a Deb ball would not have drastically changed your happiness.
@@mikamakawee3321 Oh this wasn't a marriage thing at all! We were all 17/18 yr olds, and we were being presented as adults to our peers and parents, nothing to do with 'being ready to marry'. Most of my classmates either went straight into work or went to university or some other tertiary education
Scary to think the women, those who bring life forth into this world, were treated like they were nothing. Can't have their own money, sold by their families in the form of dowries, no say over your life or children, can't earn your own money. God forbid if you said no to a marriage proposal or a shadow will be cast over your reputation. Still goes on in many countries today, sad and scary how women are treated.
It is crazy that bringing forth life can be seen from different perspectives. Either women are treated with the upmost respect because they create life or they’re treated like a machine that pumps out humans
The other thing is people got engaged _very_ quickly and frequently back then as it was the only way they could be alone unchaperoned. My grandmother was engaged 5 times in the 1930s and she couldn't even remember who three of them were in later life 😂
I was technically a debutante, in the 90s. I only got invited to be one because of the school I attended and who my friends were. My parents didn’t want me to feel left out, so they let me do it, but it wasn’t thousands of dollars. I do realize I was very privileged and still am. My niece was a deb in a different organization a few years ago. It’s outrageous what people spend on it. Mine was nothing compared to my niece’s. Hers was $12,000 per table for the ball, in addition to whatever the hell they paid for her to actually be in the group, her gown, photographs, the ball, the doll in a replica of her gown, the lessons for her courtesy, etc etc etc. The money represented in the ballroom that night was ridiculous. The cheese plate at dinner was amazing, though, I went around asking people if they were going to eat theirs. Best blue cheese I ever had.😂
That's how I feel about lavish weddings. And I'd rather buy a house ir cruise around the world with the money. An aside, good cheese is more expensive than porterhouse steak or king crab. . Most time, I'd prefer cheeses. The smellier and runner, the better 😊😊😊
@@MegCazaletyour thinking is absurdly black and white, has it ever occurred to you that more than one thing can be true at a time? The rich still overwhelmingly marry each other, and showing off is absolutely part of everything they do, including deciding who they’re going to marry. They even have their own rich people dating apps😂
@@ServraghGiorsal I have never enjoyed a Stilton shared with live maggots but I’ve read it’s an experience. 🫣 I actually called my aunt later to try to track down that blue cheese. She called the hotel where the ball was and got the name. It was a small dairy in Dallas, where they live, but I never got it again. They’ve since closed. My friend tried to run a cheese business herself for a bit, but it’s hard! I had sure fun while that lasted though!
Thank you so much for including queer history! We just tend to be forgotten and excluded, which is then later used as an argument for why we're something new and wrong.
Thank you for including the bit about Sir Ewan Forbes. You lead me to read about him, and his story is absolutely fascinating for its time. He was actually accepted by most of his community where he practiced as a doctor. He lived a quiet, normal life. His inheritance of the baronetcy was a battle though. It was decided his gender assignment at birth was a mistake, and he was allowed to inherit. He would make a wonderful subject for a short video. Though what’s unique about him is that he successfully lived a pretty normal life. For the most part he didn’t have to fight. Not everyone wants to be an advocate even when they are accidentally trailblazing, some just want to live out their lives quietly. I’m glad he got to.
I was a debutante. This was in 2010 and it was really to join upper middle class African American society. It helped me make connections, gain scholarships and networking.
Kick Kennedy reminds me of Daphne from Bridgerton just without the tragedy. Both were “diamonds of the season” (Kick was debutante of the year and extremely popular) both had a flirtation with men named Prince Frederick of Prussia and both came from very close and successful families. And both Daphne and Kick end up with the most eligible bachelor.
Kick Kennedy was treated horribly by her mother and father. They didn’t approve of either of her marriages. Her father was a very controlling man, and her mother always obeyed her husband. The Kennedy’s got their money from bootlegging, so they were hardly any better than anyone.
I am African American, and because my Mother’s family was well-known in Politics (and the ladies in my family were society hostesses), me, my Mother, and my Grandmother all had cotillions sponsored by the university sororities…most famously the one my Mom and Grandmother belonged to Delta Sigma Theta. It was quite the affair and took several months of Saturdays to practice for. The young men were from the local university JROTC, and all was very formal and lovely, but fun, too, on that night (after the formal parts, the young people did get to party according to their age, and our parents watch on in mock distaste. Good memories!
Your hardwork and dedication is always infinitely better than All of those AI generated history documentaries combined! Nothing will ever beat yout channel! 👸👸👸🙏🙏🙏🙏
I mean, sure you can beat it... alot of the information in this was taken from a debutante documentary where the Duchess of Northumberland, Duke and Duchess of Devonshire and a large number of other aristocrats sat down and discusssed their experiences firsthand....look up BBC Timewatch Debutantes. Its on daily motion. Stealing content and repackaging as ones own is pretty gross behavior.
This sounds like speed dating, Las Vegas, and hell all rolled in one. For women, at least Edit: just imagine you are left single for the rest of your life because you tripped over a dress
Honestly I need to watch it. Francesca is so autistic, at least autistic-coded. Since ya know, this is the early 1900s, they didn’t have the diagnosis yet. (I say this as an autistic person)
There's still a "white ball" tradition alive in central europe slavic countries. A high school class will attend ballroom dancing classes together for half a year and then have a ball for their parents, in suits and white dresses. Everyone is "presented" to the parents- as a class, not individually and not just girls. And then they showcase the basic dancing skills they've learned. It's actually relatively cheap to attend, quite fun and usually the majority of any public high school kids go.
Bal des Debutantes is an annual ball held in Paris where ladies from elite families go and show off their dresses and jewels. I think they also have to be involved in charities or something to be invited, not just from a rich family.
Omg I'm so happy you made this video!!! Debuts are usual here in the Philippines once you turn 18. It's literally a big event for the celebrant. Families spend hundreds and thousands of pesos. Surprised how different its origins actually are!
As a black woman who has lived in the South my whole life. The idea of debutantes, country clubs, pageants, or anything relating to the super wealthy makes my stomach churn. As a child I was fascinated by those things. Once I got older. I realized just how elitist those events were and how people who looked like me were treated less than. I grew up in all white family as I am adopted. I was treated horribly by people who were involved in these activities. I wish these things had been left in the past where they belong. Just as my living biological relatives 70 and older were only domestic servants "the help" at thing like debutante balls, country clubs and other places were they were permitted work at. But not allowed to personally attend. Times have changed. While I still find the idea of debutantes interesting. At 32. I have dealt with enough mean people from just being on the spectrum. And being bullied for a lot of my life. I couldn't imaginebeing a debutante and be forced to be around snobby women. But I feel the same way about sororities and fraternities as well.
I agree with you, but we weren’t always the help. Free Blacks, especially wealthy free Blacks, had debutante balls (from the 1700s to present day ). However, even in black spaces it could be elitist and colorist. If you’re interested check out the books “Aristocrats of Color” or “Our Kind of People!”
I, too, was intrigued by debutant balls when I was young. I'm neurodivergent, but not on the spectrum ("neurospicy" as some people like to say) so as a teenager, posing as a debutant, then unabashedly being myself when it was too late for them to do anything about it always held a lot of appeal. I'm starting to realize that this is suspiciously similar to the plot of an Amanda Bynes movie!
Hey, thank you for including a short mention of Sir Ewan Forbes. This is the first time I've come across this information, and it's amazing to learn about another trans person in history - nobility, too! He's had quite a remarkable life that would make a great biopic.
You're so welcome, I adore Sir Ewan! There was talk of a series, but noting out yet. He is included in my trans royals video: ruclips.net/video/r_7l1P19xrE/видео.htmlsi=UL_p0f0F3RGj52Ex
Thank you for answering a question about how many people make up the Gentry. I enjoy reading Regency novels and there is always a Duke or Marquis tucked around every corner! I knew it couldn't be a large number of families despite what each novel has me believe. Thanks for doing the research
Scarlett O'Hara was NOT a Deb; she was considered a child of mésalliance because of her Irish immigrant father. Plus she was not a "daughter of Savannah" being merely from North Georgia, so was unable to attend the St. Cecilia Ball. However, when her daughter Bonnie was born, she dared to dream that Bonnie go to the St. Cecilia Ball, as Rhett was from old Charleston and Savannah families and had more money than God. Because Bonnie died, it did t happen.
I’m 43. I was a debutante when I was 18. Born and raised in the south. It was just a thing. Wore a white (wedding) dress, full length gloves… the whole nine. My date wore white tie and tails. I absolutely HATED that my parents made me do it lol. That kind of thing was never ever my vibe. I was invited to do a larger one the next year and I refused…
I'm black and we had one even though we aren't wealthy it was a way to train young men and women how to properly interact with each other. It didn't matter your color or financial status. They wanted the youth to mingle in a beautiful and safe setting. Teach philanthropy, good grades, etiquette and how not all dancing connects at the lower body parts. It was fun, but I think the lady that put it on passed, so I don't think they do it anymore which is a shame.
I just wanted to let you know that I look forward to your videos so very much! They provide so much solace to me when I’m struggling and I love your style of video production. So classy and informative yet exciting and fun!
Unity took her pet snake Enid to dances. I think their rat’s name was Ratular, but I don’t think she let him loose at the formal balls. He would’ve been killed. Stories of the Mitfords have become legendary.
Thank you for calling out that the modern day practice of debutant maintains class and racial separatist practices. I wanted to be a debutante when I was a child, but grown up, I see how creepy it is.
I don't know if you've already done a full video on Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire, but the tea in her life story is copious and hot, and it would be an awesome story for you to dig into.
Poor Georgiana, so glamorous but so tragic. Have you read Amanda Foreman’s biography of her? It’s pretty good but I find it a little dry. (Though she’s a much better biographer than Kate Williams, IMO.) I’d like to read a novel about her. She appears in Emma Donohoe’s historical fiction novel Life Mask, which is mainly about Anne Damer, the sculptor, and the actress Eliza Farren, but Georgiana is a friend of Anne’s. I think I’ve only encountered her in historical fiction as a side character. But surely someone’s written a novel about her. I can’t decide how I feel about Lady Bess. Do you like her? Of course the movie The Duchess is really good and gorgeous.
We still have debutante balls in Australia. They were revived in the 1980s, and I participated in the first held in my town in living memory in 1983. It was very formal, and nothing like a high school prom. We also have a formal dance in the last year of high school, which is dissimilar to a debutante ball.
Débutante en 1980, quel connerie. J'habitait seule en 1968 et j'avais 21 ans et ce n'étais pas inusuel surtout que les années 60 étaient des années très libertaires en Europe
In the US in the 1960s and 70s, Candy Stripers (young girls who were hospital volunteers) had their own coming out ball that was reported on in the Society page of the local newspaper.
You have a gift of packing in a lot of information that’s historical, relevant and interesting. That was a lot of tea spilt thật covered hundreds of years, spanning continents, social groups, in about half hour. I enjoyed every drop. Well done!
Drinkint tea while watching you spill the tea of history always makes my tuesdays better! You're the Best Lindsay! Huge fan of your work! Hearth please ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Lol😂 6:35 did anyone notice the reverse walk of daphnia and her mum as they walked backwards from the queen? Daphnia’s dress magically stayed flat and straight with no fear of tripping her
I can't think of anything I would enjoy less than hanging around a bunch of snobbish, super ego twits. As a young woman I found the whole idea of prom exciting and fun. Dressing in a pretty gown and dancing the night away. The reality was somewhat disenchanting. I can't stand snobbery or elitism in any form.
The schedule would have killed me. Trying to make intelligent conversation every night with every man you encounter. I'd want a break after 2 nights of that to just sleep and read a book at home. I did enjoy my junior and senior prom, getting all dressed up and having my hair and makeup done, but I went with friends and we did do a lot of dancing and had a good time. I also slept in the next day. One of the few times mom didn't make me go to church Sunday morning.
The info you mention about women not working and there being way more marriage-age women than men in the Middle Ages isn’t entirely correct. While the wealthy elite could afford to have their female relatives and wives not work, most regular upper, middle and lower class women actually worked alongside their male relatives in the family business, agriculture, or even in trades of their own (brewing is a great example of this). Also, while a lot of men died in battle, the mortality rate during or immediately after childbirth was also incredibly high, meaning that a lot of men lost their wives and were once again on the marriage market.
She specifically said "daughters of the aristocracy" couldn't earn their own money, I'm not sure how you got to thinking she said no women worked ever in the Middle Ages, yes most women did because most women were not "daughters of the aristocracy". The video is about high society, she very obviously isn't talking about regular working class people here.
She’s talking about the wealthy and has acknowledged what you said in other videos. But yes, it’s important that people know women didn’t start working 50 years ago
This reminds me of the debutante episodes of shows like Gossip Girl, The OC, and Degrassi. On Degrassi it happened twice: in season 7 when Manny’s parents made her invite her dorky cousin and were disappointed with the littlest details, and a second time with Fiona and Declan when they did their 2nd stint at Degrassi AFTER their boarding school fiasco.
This was informational. IK already knew a lot of it. I had wondered before, how it began. I did know when it ended. All the pomp and circumstance had be tiring for the people living it. I've read books of the season and it being taxing on people. Especially on those who wished they didn't have to attend.
Debutante Balls, Cotillions, 'finishing schools' and presentations ... still happened through the 90s in Oklahoma and still happen in the Deep South. Mobile, Alabama 'Camelia Ball Debutantes'. In retrospect, the biggest pressure put by society on young ladies was / is to 'marry well'. Ugh.
Quinceañeras are forma of these debutant balls. It’s still a sorta tradition in Mexico that you’re allowed a boyfriend at 15. The context behind it is kinda lost but, wow 15 is so young to be ‘eligible’
@@BarbzTingzzIt's pretty much alike, the only difference is that today the quinceañera can be celebrated by anyone no matter the economic background. The quinceañera was basically the form of debutante introduced by the French and Spanish to the "new world", in Mexico it served as a mean for the Catholic church to help transition indigenous people to the catholic religion and be more willing to accept the church, the Aztecs had rituals of passage for women, the debutante idea was mixed with some of those rituals. In South America before Argentina's independence (it was Spanish conquered land) the Spanish aristocrats introduced the debutante balls which they still celebrate to this day and it continues to be a celebration that mostly high middle class and upper class can only hold, any other parent who wants to throw a quinceañera has to go on debt in order to do so as it is very expensive to have one of those parties/balls. Quinceañera was the introduction of a young girl to society, to signal that she had become a woman and she could have more responsibilities. There are magazines from the 1800s in the internet archive where a lot of this can be read, even experiences written by the debutantes themselves .
Yay! I was waiting for this video since I started watching period dramas like Bridgerton and learning about dollar princesses. 👑 And as I predicted, it was very informative and enjoyable! 😊 I've always been fascinated by all things luxury and high society since I was a little girl who once dreamed of becoming a princess. 👸 So this video was a treat for me. Thank you for filling this niche Mrs. Holiday! ❤
I attended my debutante ball 5 months prior to my senior prom almost 30 years ago. Yes we have come a long way as we discussed college goals & upcoming careers. It was a fascinating experience. And yes I am an American.
@@jamellfoster6029 Pas lents mais en Europe on était déjà très libre en 1960 et on sortait librement avec des amis et aux USA vous tenez compte de la communauté et vous étiez moins libres
I enjoyed this presentation. I especially appreciated your inclusion of the African American Debutante Ball subculture (in which I was presented in the late 70s). I used to like to read Gothic romances when I was a teen, and none was complete without the London Season being described down to the last finite detail.
True. He didn’t divorce either of the 2 wives usually mentioned. The marriages were annulled. If they had been divorced Mary would not have been declared illegitimate by her father. The point was he claimed he should be allowed to marry again as his first marriage was illegal as he had married his brother’s widow. (Sorry this isn’t teaching you as I realise you know all this, just a comment under yours).
Exactly. This is the reason why he separated from the Catholic Church. There is no divorce in the Catholic Church and the Pope refused to grant the annulment since the marriage was consummated.
What's funny is that I know a few debutantes who ended up not getting married. Most of them are in relationships, but they aren't engaged. Just an interesting tidbit in my life.
YESS! I've been telling my sisters the real facts the entire time we've been watching, I know Bridgerton isn't supposed to be accurate but the way they portray the background characters is infuriating
Georgiana’s name is pronounced differently, in the way the Devonshires pronounced it. It’s more like “George-ane-er”. Edit: And Devonshire is pronounced “Devon-shur”. All the -shires are pronounced “shur”, as far as I can think. I know Lindsay probably does most of her research through reading, and thus doesn’t get to hear the pronunciations. Completely understandable. And British names have crazy pronunciations, like Belvoir Castle being “beaver”, or Cholmondeley being “chumley”. We do the same in Texas with stuff like Humble, Fuqua, and Kuykendahl. They’re almost like shibboleths.
Does anyone remember the episodes of Beverly Hills 90210 (the original) where Donna chose to be a debutante? The series was kind of poking fun at it but apparently it was still a very popular event in the 1990s I remember being shocked that it was still a thing then, let alone had any idea the tradition carried on until today.
My now-husband and I skipped prom to go out on a date by ourselves. Considering even our inner-city high school wanted $70/person for prom tickets, it wasn't worth it.
Thats one of the most informative videos on the lifestyle of nobility and gentry of that era, the title is misleading viewer to expect a lot less than it actually offers.
As a girl who can't go to prom and loves history (I have an immunocompromised mother and COVID is still a thing where I live), it saddens me a little to see the rich history behind debutantes and their influence on prom/grad balls. It does feel like an initiation into womanhood, in a way
I’m so sorry you don’t get to go to prom! Everyone who wants should have a chance to have one night dressed in an opulent gown and dancing with their partner and/or friends. But it’s so good of you to be aware and careful for your mother. Covid is technically still a thing everywhere, but we’ve all just really kind of moved on acting like it’s an event that has an ending, when it really doesn’t, ever. Covid and it’s mutating variants will be around forever. We’ve adapted some as a society, and adopted new protocol as part of everyday life, but it doesn’t mean everyone’s now safe and immune. You’re very responsible and loving to be so careful for your mother. As an immunocompromised person myself, I thank you.
@@Hippidippimahm Speaking of history bounding and LARPING: My husband got me a tabletop RPG that’s like D&D only it’s a Regency house party! So you’re playing people who are in that outwardly rigid but secretly permissive society, and you’re having flirtations and rivalries and gossip and jockeying for social status. I haven’t tried it yet for two reasons. One, I’m extremely nervous because I’ve never done any role playing before, so I have stage fright, though I’ve acted a lot and done a lot of public speaking. The best solution to that problem would be to just jump in, of course, but the other problem is I have nobody to play with. I could just start developing a character for myself. My husband plays D&D weekly and he and I developed a character for myself if I ever wanted to jump into his game for just a bit; my character and his character have a backstory together. I’m personally not all that interested in D&D but he is passionately, so I try really hard. It’s very sweet how much he wanted to incorporate me into his favorite hobby. Anyway, I would LOVE to LARP in any time in history where I could be a rich aristocrat! I watch all those shows where people live in historical settings, like Manor House and Time Crashers and High Street. Disney made that Star Wars LARP hotel that failed miserably, but a real life version of the book Austenland (but affordable) would be my JAM! Or Edwardianland. Or Restorationland. 60sland. I have lots of times/places I’d want to “go” to! What about you? Which time and place would you LARP in?
I “debbed” when I was a junior in high school. For some reason in Ukrainian American culture in the Northeast US they are quite popular and put on by professional societies and fraternal organizations. I think they started back in the 50s or 60s and continue to this day. It was actually really fun and I remember it being so great to meet other girls my age. It had nothing to do with getting married or “high society”.
My high school’s tradition is graduating in a white gown 😅 I always thought it was silly but looking back it was fun and unique. The school’s moms do a great job getting donated gowns from all over the place because most of the girls are from “blue collar” “working class” families that are just barelyy eeeking by with the cost of tuition. They still do it to this day!
They called it "putting your hair up." Since Americans don't have a season. Careen Scarlets little sister is about 13-14 and they have a discussion about whether she can go out to the ball. Also Melanie talks about when Uncle Peter helped the family decide if she wasold enough to put her hair up and go to parties. After the war it was less formal.
@@ThinWhiteAxe I think I get what the other commenter is saying. Being on the marriage market and being “in society” were slightly different. Men can know a young lady is available for proposals, but that’s different from a girl having been presented, or having “come out”, which is ALSO slightly different from allowing a girl to come downstairs for dinner and eat with the adults. To put her hair up and lower her hemlines and “put away childish things”. For example, in Mansfield Park, Fanny is allowed to socialize like a grownup but she isn’t formally “out”. I’m blanking on where else there’s a conversation about whether or not a person is or is not “out”, or if that’s the example I’m thinking of. I can picture the Crawford siblings discussing Fanny that way. So, being “out” in terms of being a debutante is a specific form of “out in society”. Because it’s a formal presentation, a formal acknowledgment. Obviously there wasn’t a monarch to be presented to, but there was generally a ball held to make it official. A girl can have been socializing almost the same before and after her official debut, but afterwards there was a sense of greater responsibility and, well, in the past, urgency. Because of course the goal back then was always to get a wealthy husband with the right family connections. Titles of course aren’t a thing so it’s all about land and business. I’m in a weird position of having been born and raised in the South and even admittedly been a debutante in the South, but my knowledge about the historical formalities of being a Debutante is all focused on the British version. The social rules of the South are weird because I feel like we rarely spell them out. It’s almost 5 am and I’m here yammering about this because despite the sleeping meds and pain meds, I can’t sleep. Guess I ought to give it another try. I hope my comment helped in some way. I really really wish I could find the exact literary conversation I’m thinking if that explains the difference between being considered an eligible young woman who can socialize with adults and being considered “out”. Good night!
this is a great video thank you so much. You said after World War I and the flu pandemic so many young people died that priorities shifted amongst the young. I wonder if we will see any shifting of priorities now, post Covid pandemic. Have we seen anything shift yet? I do think people have become less willing or able to find places in the real world to converse. Everyone is just alone on their phone, wherever they are.
Women could inherit property especially in pre-Britain England. The vast wealth of the British Crown is in large part due to the Duchy of Lancaster that passed in through an heiress. Those women were definitely considered marriage prizes but everyone else had to scramble. There were definitely maids of honor/court ladies before Edward IV; Elizabeth herself had been in attendance on the previous queen.
At what age did these girls had their first season? could they start earlier or later? And were they really already considered spinsters if they were in their thrid season?
Usually they’d go out in their late teens, anything earlier than 17/18 was seen as slightly scandalous, and anything older than 20 was an old maid. If you weren’t married within 3 seasons, people saw it as a sign that no man wanted you
I Love the facts you present. I only wish the speaker would articulate without emphasis on random words..the Intonation seems weird to me and for me it's hard to listen ... I'm so sorry for thos rude comment....
I am SOOOO grateful to be born and raised in a modern era, without the ridiculous stress of needing to be married just to survive. I adore history, but a lot of it was an absolute nightmare for women.
So glad we moved past this. It’s fantasy at best. Most women didn’t have these options. And to be so dependent on a man meant women were at their mercy and it wasn’t always pretty.
This is random but I’m enjoying my Bridgerton-themed Bath & Body-Works scents. I got all of them in hand soaps and scent bulbs. There’s Diamond of the Season, Bridgerton Study, Wisteria Garden, Danbury Shortbread, and Queen Charlotte’s Tea. I’ve got Queen Charlotte’s Tea in my bathroom and Bridgerton Study in my den. I’ll probably put Danbury Shortbread in my kitchen or my bedroom. I don’t like Wisteria Garden or Diamond of the Season quite so much; the first one is a little too cloying and the second just isn’t my type. But I love the others. I recommend them for a fun Bridgerton tie-in! Helps you LARP as a Regency lady of the Ton!
I don't know what you are referring to , but Georgianas son-Hartibgton never married so the title of Duke of Devonshire went sideways in the families. Kathleen Kennedy was engaged to Billy Hartington ( heir apparent ) in World War two , but they both died 😢😢
@@ServraghGiorsal Debo married Billy’s younger brother. Georgiana and her son Hart were way back up in the family tree. Lindsay mentioned Unity Mitford in the video so I just wanted to mention that relation to the Cavendishes/Devonshires.
Just a tip for next time, Vauxhall pleasure gardens is pronounced like 'Vox-Haul'. I'm not even sure what the second one you said was, but I think your pronunciation was slightly off. Fabulous video though, can't wait to see more :)
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Loveee your videos!!! God bless you!
Young ladies could refuse, they could even break off engagements, but young men could not break off engagements, or they would be in breach of promise. It was the one but of power the young ladies had - if their parents let them. Refusing wasn’t necessarily a black mark on her chances for future proposals.
Um no Meg that's not how it worked. You being a deb in the 90s is not a substitute for research on a subject you clearly know nothing about. Men got to slide, no questions, they weren't considered "used goods", men got betrothed & broke engagements no questions asked throughout history in the upper classes. You need to do some reading.
@@PrettyPoppyGirl651 Me being a deb has nothing to do with me knowing about Breach of Promise. Men did not get to slide from a betrothal. Maybe you should do some reading in history yourself. Breach of Promise is an actual thing.
@@PrettyPoppyGirl651 Two seconds of googling would’ve been enough for you, Pretty Poppy, but no, you had to talk down to me and say *I* knew nothing of what I was talking about and needed to do some research. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_promise
@PrettyPoppyGirl651
Nothing Meg said was incorrect. Men could be sued for breach of promise, though the woman or her parents didn’t necessarily want such a situation to be more public than it already was.
I know what you speak of deb but it is facts, many many times men got to slide leaving the young lady in shambles. You actually both are correct. But the more powerful the girls father was the harder it was to slide.@@MegCazalet
As an introvert and Highly Sensitive Personality, the schedule the young ladies had to keep with balls every night of the week, visiting in the morning, etc. made me want to cry. God forbid a night to rest or just enjoy the quiet and read a book.
Ditto.😢 I have Asperger's, so I'd hate that! Praise God I live in 21st century Florida.😅
Yeah I am on the spectrum and it would kill me.
I am also an introvert and HSP so this social schedule sounds like torture! I used to attend events but now that I’m over 50 I don’t bother trying anymore. I’m just counting down to retirement and hope to find a quiet cottage in the Italian countryside. My son also mirrors me and at 27, just now getting a social life. He feels like he’s 10 years behind, but at least I’m not a grandma and he’s never been arrested! ☮️
@@AnneCaulder you would feel well represented by Francesca on this season of Bridgerton 😂 actually I think everyone in this thread would
Righttttt? 😅
My grandmother was a debutant in London in 1930s!
That's so fun! Do you have photos?
That's crazy!! Do you have any memorabilia or photos?
@@carag2567 unfortunately not! She was photographed by one of the society photographers, and that has survived as a tinted picture that hangs in my mum's house.
@@BriarMB13 not really, but she thought it was amusing: she giggled about a 'conveyor belt' of damsels trooped past Edward VIII tout de suite!
@@BriarMB13 he might still have been Prince of Wales at the time.
I was part of a Black sorority debutante ball in my early 20s- I was so over it and all the social engagements we were forced to do but I loved all the girls I participated with!
#BlackGirlMagic ❤
I love that Jane Austen wrote that Elizabeth Bennet refused not one, but TWO proposals! And this was back in 1813 (but it was most likely written even earlier, in 1797!)
she was a maid with standards
She did! But also it was not as scanalous as you'd think, they valued currency very much but being a gold digger and only marrying for money (not that it didn't happen) wasn't very well liked either- you should at least be able to bahe some affection for your partner otherwhiles it was basically said your marriage was doomed from the start.
"She found the British aristocracy so dull she went and joined the Nazis for a better time" 😱
I was like this lady is sounds dope and then she got to that part 😮. Sheesh
@@Giraffatitannn_ 😅 I know , right! It's like that saying, " She's a 10, but a Nazi" so disappointing .
😂
Lmaaaaooooi
To be honest, as a British born German citizen, Unity Mitford was just a lost soul who could just have easily become a Communist. She is a useful hate target, to distract from the Nazi supporting aristocracy in general, King Edward and Wallis, who also courted the Fuhrer. Even Elizabeth 11, Greedy Betty was exposed giving the Nazi salute... I wish Americans would stop idolising the British monarchy and aristocracy. Because, Jeez, if your taxpayers had to foot the bill... especially the rich ones, you might think differently. 😂
I mean the British aristocracy’s way of thinking at that time (and today for many people) and the Nazi ideology are two sides of the same coin
I can confirm (for Australia at least) that 'Presentation Balls' are still held, but mostly only at private schools. We had to take dancing lessons, and weren't allowed to pick our own partners; they were assigned according to height , and if there weren't enough of one gender to go around, they would recruit extras from the previous year's students. We didn't have to curtsey or bow to anyone, but we WERE 'presented' on stage as officially having become young adults. We weren't restricted to colour regarding our outfits. Most boys wore black or navy blue suits with white shirts, but the girls wore a mix of colours and styles according to personal taste.
Admittedly my debutant ball was about 30 years ago now so things may have changed. My ball was not associated with my school at all so anyone was able to be presented. It was more of a traditional Debutant Ball where we all wore lovely white dresses and were presented (I think to the mayor or some politician) we were able to choose our own partners but we did have to do the dancing lessons. Oh and I am Australian also.
@@emmylou78 TBH mine was about 15 years ago, so my info may also be out of date. My school stopped requiring white dresses maybe 5 or so years before my ball, but it's probably different for everybody
this is so fancy
@@mikamakawee3321 I was still in school when I was presented. Also Debutante balls are no longer about “finding a husband” they are an old tradition that has kept going as a coming of age for young women.
On top of that I would like to say that I also went to work after finishing school, chose to never get married and have a career. And I am very happy with how my life turned out. Marriage is not going to make you happy. If you are having trouble finding someone who will love you try loving yourself first. Having had a Deb ball would not have drastically changed your happiness.
@@mikamakawee3321 Oh this wasn't a marriage thing at all! We were all 17/18 yr olds, and we were being presented as adults to our peers and parents, nothing to do with 'being ready to marry'. Most of my classmates either went straight into work or went to university or some other tertiary education
Scary to think the women, those who bring life forth into this world, were treated like they were nothing. Can't have their own money, sold by their families in the form of dowries, no say over your life or children, can't earn your own money. God forbid if you said no to a marriage proposal or a shadow will be cast over your reputation. Still goes on in many countries today, sad and scary how women are treated.
In some countries, it's still like that
@@oeknnd Absolutely
John Stuart Mill was a great feminist and wrote The Subjection of Women, protesting the treatment of women in the mid-1800s.
It is crazy that bringing forth life can be seen from different perspectives. Either women are treated with the upmost respect because they create life or they’re treated like a machine that pumps out humans
God forbid that that should happen again. There are plenty of men that would love for things to go back to this..
The other thing is people got engaged _very_ quickly and frequently back then as it was the only way they could be alone unchaperoned. My grandmother was engaged 5 times in the 1930s and she couldn't even remember who three of them were in later life 😂
Ouch, imagine being so unimpressionable that the lady forgets you were her fiancé!
I was technically a debutante, in the 90s. I only got invited to be one because of the school I attended and who my friends were. My parents didn’t want me to feel left out, so they let me do it, but it wasn’t thousands of dollars. I do realize I was very privileged and still am. My niece was a deb in a different organization a few years ago. It’s outrageous what people spend on it. Mine was nothing compared to my niece’s. Hers was $12,000 per table for the ball, in addition to whatever the hell they paid for her to actually be in the group, her gown, photographs, the ball, the doll in a replica of her gown, the lessons for her courtesy, etc etc etc. The money represented in the ballroom that night was ridiculous. The cheese plate at dinner was amazing, though, I went around asking people if they were going to eat theirs. Best blue cheese I ever had.😂
@EnchantedLove30 At this point is not about marriage, it’s purely about showing off.
For the amount of money expended the cheese had better bi good.
After looking at this video I prefer to be free as a Buddhist.
That's how I feel about lavish weddings. And I'd rather buy a house ir cruise around the world with the money. An aside, good cheese is more expensive than porterhouse steak or king crab. . Most time, I'd prefer cheeses. The smellier and runner, the better 😊😊😊
@@MegCazaletyour thinking is absurdly black and white, has it ever occurred to you that more than one thing can be true at a time? The rich still overwhelmingly marry each other, and showing off is absolutely part of everything they do, including deciding who they’re going to marry. They even have their own rich people dating apps😂
@@ServraghGiorsal I have never enjoyed a Stilton shared with live maggots but I’ve read it’s an experience. 🫣
I actually called my aunt later to try to track down that blue cheese. She called the hotel where the ball was and got the name. It was a small dairy in Dallas, where they live, but I never got it again. They’ve since closed. My friend tried to run a cheese business herself for a bit, but it’s hard! I had sure fun while that lasted though!
Thank you so much for including queer history!
We just tend to be forgotten and excluded, which is then later used as an argument for why we're something new and wrong.
I adore Sir Ewan! He is included in my trans royals video: ruclips.net/video/r_7l1P19xrE/видео.htmlsi=UL_p0f0F3RGj52Ex
Its nothing new there were gay people in Jesus time they just werent Flamboyant and trying to shove it down peoples throats. Just be gay and shut up
😊
Thank you for including the bit about Sir Ewan Forbes. You lead me to read about him, and his story is absolutely fascinating for its time. He was actually accepted by most of his community where he practiced as a doctor. He lived a quiet, normal life. His inheritance of the baronetcy was a battle though. It was decided his gender assignment at birth was a mistake, and he was allowed to inherit. He would make a wonderful subject for a short video. Though what’s unique about him is that he successfully lived a pretty normal life. For the most part he didn’t have to fight. Not everyone wants to be an advocate even when they are accidentally trailblazing, some just want to live out their lives quietly. I’m glad he got to.
I adore Sir Ewan! He was included in my Trans and Nonbinary royals video! ruclips.net/video/GYE5enYylmc/видео.htmlsi=cDBHtiMXo0yX_nnc
@@LindsayHoliday Thank you for the link! And for introducing me to Sir Ewan. 💖
I was a debutante. This was in 2010 and it was really to join upper middle class African American society. It helped me make connections, gain scholarships and networking.
It's still a gross practice. Doesn't wipe off the blood or the socio-political ramifications that followed it's creation for centuries after.
Still freeking weird
Kick Kennedy reminds me of Daphne from Bridgerton just without the tragedy. Both were “diamonds of the season” (Kick was debutante of the year and extremely popular) both had a flirtation with men named Prince Frederick of Prussia and both came from very close and successful families. And both Daphne and Kick end up with the most eligible bachelor.
Lisez plutôt les livres au lieu de regarder cette série
at that time if you had something tragic happen to you, you had to suck it up, act like nothing happened and carry on
Kick Kennedy was treated horribly by her mother and father. They didn’t approve of either of her marriages. Her father was a very controlling man, and her mother always obeyed her husband. The Kennedy’s got their money from bootlegging, so they were hardly any better than anyone.
I am African American, and because my Mother’s family was well-known in Politics (and the ladies in my family were society hostesses), me, my Mother, and my Grandmother all had cotillions sponsored by the university sororities…most famously the one my Mom and Grandmother belonged to Delta Sigma Theta. It was quite the affair and took several months of Saturdays to practice for. The young men were from the local university JROTC, and all was very formal and lovely, but fun, too, on that night (after the formal parts, the young people did get to party according to their age, and our parents watch on in mock distaste. Good memories!
My mom and godmother are Deltas! The best women ❤
It sounds absolutely gorgeous!
This was lovely to read. As a parent I chuckled at the “mock distaste”. 😂❤
Your hardwork and dedication is always infinitely better than All of those AI generated history documentaries combined! Nothing will ever beat yout channel! 👸👸👸🙏🙏🙏🙏
My husband just said the same 😂
I mean, sure you can beat it... alot of the information in this was taken from a debutante documentary where the Duchess of Northumberland, Duke and Duchess of Devonshire and a large number of other aristocrats sat down and discusssed their experiences firsthand....look up BBC Timewatch Debutantes. Its on daily motion. Stealing content and repackaging as ones own is pretty gross behavior.
This sounds like speed dating, Las Vegas, and hell all rolled in one. For women, at least
Edit: just imagine you are left single for the rest of your life because you tripped over a dress
That one poor girl looked like she feinted, poor thing.
I have already ploughed through the new Bridgerton series.
Me too. So ready for part 2!
Honestly I need to watch it. Francesca is so autistic, at least autistic-coded. Since ya know, this is the early 1900s, they didn’t have the diagnosis yet.
(I say this as an autistic person)
La série télévisée ou les livres. Les livres sont mieux et même un peu coquins
So do I. I love Bridgerton. 💕 I watched seasons 1 and 2. I even watched the Queen Charlotte spinoff. 👑 And I can't wait to watch the new season 3! 😊
You would need a plow to get through all of the muck and lies.
Could you imagine, two “seasons” and then you’re “put on the shelf” 💀 no pressure 😅😂
There's still a "white ball" tradition alive in central europe slavic countries. A high school class will attend ballroom dancing classes together for half a year and then have a ball for their parents, in suits and white dresses. Everyone is "presented" to the parents- as a class, not individually and not just girls. And then they showcase the basic dancing skills they've learned. It's actually relatively cheap to attend, quite fun and usually the majority of any public high school kids go.
Bal des Debutantes is an annual ball held in Paris where ladies from elite families go and show off their dresses and jewels. I think they also have to be involved in charities or something to be invited, not just from a rich family.
That sounds like Junior Cotillion/Cotillion common in some places in the US.
That sounds lovely. Everyone is included and it almost seems like a rite of passage as opposed to an elitist show.
Omg I'm so happy you made this video!!! Debuts are usual here in the Philippines once you turn 18. It's literally a big event for the celebrant. Families spend hundreds and thousands of pesos. Surprised how different its origins actually are!
Similar to Quinceañeras in the Latino community in the US and Latin America
Oh honey this ain’t the same….. look up Jeffrey Epstein and prince Andrew and bill clinton honnnayyyy we wear real diamonds not that plastic stuff
That’s like a quinceanera though. Debutante balls were for finding a husband
As a black woman who has lived in the South my whole life. The idea of debutantes, country clubs, pageants, or anything relating to the super wealthy makes my stomach churn. As a child I was fascinated by those things. Once I got older. I realized just how elitist those events were and how people who looked like me were treated less than. I grew up in all white family as I am adopted. I was treated horribly by people who were involved in these activities. I wish these things had been left in the past where they belong. Just as my living biological relatives 70 and older were only domestic servants "the help" at thing like debutante balls, country clubs and other places were they were permitted work at. But not allowed to personally attend. Times have changed. While I still find the idea of debutantes interesting. At 32. I have dealt with enough mean people from just being on the spectrum. And being bullied for a lot of my life. I couldn't imaginebeing a debutante and be forced to be around snobby women. But I feel the same way about sororities and fraternities as well.
Amen, sister. 😊I, too, an on the spectrum and was horribly bullied.😢 I'd hate to be showed off like a prized pure bred dog at Westminster.😢 Ugh.😊
Did y’all forget about Jeffrey Epstein and prince Andrew??? This is all the same!!!!!!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤😂😂😂😂😂
Female beginner????? Oh lorddddd ❤❤❤ Jeffrey Epstein and prince Andrew were best friends ❤❤❤❤
I agree with you, but we weren’t always the help. Free Blacks, especially wealthy free Blacks, had debutante balls (from the 1700s to present day ). However, even in black spaces it could be elitist and colorist. If you’re interested check out the books “Aristocrats of Color” or “Our Kind of People!”
I, too, was intrigued by debutant balls when I was young. I'm neurodivergent, but not on the spectrum ("neurospicy" as some people like to say) so as a teenager, posing as a debutant, then unabashedly being myself when it was too late for them to do anything about it always held a lot of appeal.
I'm starting to realize that this is suspiciously similar to the plot of an Amanda Bynes movie!
Hey, thank you for including a short mention of Sir Ewan Forbes. This is the first time I've come across this information, and it's amazing to learn about another trans person in history - nobility, too! He's had quite a remarkable life that would make a great biopic.
You're so welcome, I adore Sir Ewan! There was talk of a series, but noting out yet. He is included in my trans royals video: ruclips.net/video/r_7l1P19xrE/видео.htmlsi=UL_p0f0F3RGj52Ex
Thank you for answering a question about how many people make up the Gentry. I enjoy reading Regency novels and there is always a Duke or Marquis tucked around every corner!
I knew it couldn't be a large number of families despite what each novel has me believe.
Thanks for doing the research
Scarlett O'Hara was NOT a Deb; she was considered a child of mésalliance because of her Irish immigrant father. Plus she was not a "daughter of Savannah" being merely from North Georgia, so was unable to attend the St. Cecilia Ball.
However, when her daughter Bonnie was born, she dared to dream that Bonnie go to the St. Cecilia Ball, as Rhett was from old Charleston and Savannah families and had more money than God. Because Bonnie died, it did t happen.
I always hated how Bonnie died and what it did to each of them after the miscarriage 😕 so tragic IMO - I always wanted them to work
@@acoe2012acomg same I read the sequel books by different authors just to fill my fantasy of them getting back together
Aw man spoilers! :p
Scarlett o'hara was also 1/4 Cherokee, therefore not white enough.
No she was not. @joltjolt5060
This is one of my favorite videos you've ever done. It's amazing to hear how these ideas evolved over time.
I’m 43. I was a debutante when I was 18. Born and raised in the south. It was just a thing. Wore a white (wedding) dress, full length gloves… the whole nine. My date wore white tie and tails. I absolutely HATED that my parents made me do it lol. That kind of thing was never ever my vibe. I was invited to do a larger one the next year and I refused…
EARLY! You're the Queen of history lindsay! Can hear you talking for hours and be very happy 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Yeah ikr.....I could listen to her forever ❤❤
I'm black and we had one even though we aren't wealthy it was a way to train young men and women how to properly interact with each other. It didn't matter your color or financial status. They wanted the youth to mingle in a beautiful and safe setting. Teach philanthropy, good grades, etiquette and how not all dancing connects at the lower body parts. It was fun, but I think the lady that put it on passed, so I don't think they do it anymore which is a shame.
I just wanted to let you know that I look forward to your videos so very much! They provide so much solace to me when I’m struggling and I love your style of video production. So classy and informative yet exciting and fun!
Unity took her pet snake Enid to dances. I think their rat’s name was Ratular, but I don’t think she let him loose at the formal balls. He would’ve been killed. Stories of the Mitfords have become legendary.
Thank you for calling out that the modern day practice of debutant maintains class and racial separatist practices. I wanted to be a debutante when I was a child, but grown up, I see how creepy it is.
it isn’t creepy it was just the practice of those times, what was creepy was how they ignored the poor classes, of any race, that they lived off
I don't know if you've already done a full video on Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire, but the tea in her life story is copious and hot, and it would be an awesome story for you to dig into.
Poor Georgiana, so glamorous but so tragic. Have you read Amanda Foreman’s biography of her? It’s pretty good but I find it a little dry. (Though she’s a much better biographer than Kate Williams, IMO.) I’d like to read a novel about her. She appears in Emma Donohoe’s historical fiction novel Life Mask, which is mainly about Anne Damer, the sculptor, and the actress Eliza Farren, but Georgiana is a friend of Anne’s. I think I’ve only encountered her in historical fiction as a side character. But surely someone’s written a novel about her.
I can’t decide how I feel about Lady Bess. Do you like her?
Of course the movie The Duchess is really good and gorgeous.
She hadn't made a video of Georgie yet...in the near future.
There's a movie out
@@Booboosmom is called "The Duchess" (film)
We still have debutante balls in Australia. They were revived in the 1980s, and I participated in the first held in my town in living memory in 1983.
It was very formal, and nothing like a high school prom.
We also have a formal dance in the last year of high school, which is dissimilar to a debutante ball.
Débutante en 1980, quel connerie. J'habitait seule en 1968 et j'avais 21 ans et ce n'étais pas inusuel surtout que les années 60 étaient des années très libertaires en Europe
In the US in the 1960s and 70s, Candy Stripers (young girls who were hospital volunteers) had their own coming out ball that was reported on in the Society page of the local newspaper.
I've been waiting for Bridgerton themed content!!! 💙
I'd love to see a video on Georgianna, Duchess of Devonshire. Her story is so fascinating!
I remember going to an exhibition at Kensington Palace which was the last Debutante, it was certainly interesting.
I was a debutante in a Black Sorority sponsored event and won top prize! Good times
You have a gift of packing in a lot of information that’s historical, relevant and interesting. That was a lot of tea spilt thật covered hundreds of years, spanning continents, social groups, in about half hour. I enjoyed every drop. Well done!
Thank you!
Great video! It would be interesting to see you do a video on the history of the prom in the United States too.
Drinkint tea while watching you spill the tea of history always makes my tuesdays better! You're the Best Lindsay! Huge fan of your work! Hearth please ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Thanks!
Lol😂 6:35 did anyone notice the reverse walk of daphnia and her mum as they walked backwards from the queen? Daphnia’s dress magically stayed flat and straight with no fear of tripping her
I can't think of anything I would enjoy less than hanging around a bunch of snobbish, super ego twits. As a young woman I found the whole idea of prom exciting and fun. Dressing in a pretty gown and dancing the night away. The reality was somewhat disenchanting. I can't stand snobbery or elitism in any form.
The schedule would have killed me. Trying to make intelligent conversation every night with every man you encounter. I'd want a break after 2 nights of that to just sleep and read a book at home. I did enjoy my junior and senior prom, getting all dressed up and having my hair and makeup done, but I went with friends and we did do a lot of dancing and had a good time. I also slept in the next day. One of the few times mom didn't make me go to church Sunday morning.
The info you mention about women not working and there being way more marriage-age women than men in the Middle Ages isn’t entirely correct. While the wealthy elite could afford to have their female relatives and wives not work, most regular upper, middle and lower class women actually worked alongside their male relatives in the family business, agriculture, or even in trades of their own (brewing is a great example of this). Also, while a lot of men died in battle, the mortality rate during or immediately after childbirth was also incredibly high, meaning that a lot of men lost their wives and were once again on the marriage market.
She specifically said "daughters of the aristocracy" couldn't earn their own money, I'm not sure how you got to thinking she said no women worked ever in the Middle Ages, yes most women did because most women were not "daughters of the aristocracy". The video is about high society, she very obviously isn't talking about regular working class people here.
She’s talking about the wealthy and has acknowledged what you said in other videos. But yes, it’s important that people know women didn’t start working 50 years ago
The term debutante was not used during the regency era it only became applicable in the Victorian era. But this is a very interesting video.
Brilliant as always! Isn’t it crazy how er create elaborately difficult ritual around our lives to entertain ourselves!!!
This reminds me of the debutante episodes of shows like Gossip Girl, The OC, and Degrassi. On Degrassi it happened twice: in season 7 when Manny’s parents made her invite her dorky cousin and were disappointed with the littlest details, and a second time with Fiona and Declan when they did their 2nd stint at Degrassi AFTER their boarding school fiasco.
We just watched all of Bridgestone and now this helped make sense of the whole process
This was informational. IK already knew a lot of it. I had wondered before, how it began. I did know when it ended. All the pomp and circumstance had be tiring for the people living it. I've read books of the season and it being taxing on people. Especially on those who wished they didn't have to attend.
Thank you for today's video! When I was a middle schooler living in Arkansas, I had a cotillion and it was good! 😁
I was just looking up information about debutantes this morning and then this video shows up.
Welcome dearest watcher
I should have said that!
Filipino girls who turn eighteen have Debuts, too. These are honestly just big, fancy birthday parties.
So like quinceneras?
@@AstarionWifey I was thinking that too.
@@FreedomWriter3Very similar, but in place of damas & chambelans we have candles & roses! They have differing practices.
Debutante Balls, Cotillions, 'finishing schools' and presentations ... still happened through the 90s in Oklahoma and still happen in the Deep South. Mobile, Alabama 'Camelia Ball Debutantes'. In retrospect, the biggest pressure put by society on young ladies was / is to 'marry well'. Ugh.
Awwww we need more Bridgerton type videos 😫😫
Quinceañeras are forma of these debutant balls. It’s still a sorta tradition in Mexico that you’re allowed a boyfriend at 15.
The context behind it is kinda lost but, wow 15 is so young to be ‘eligible’
😂😂😂 no it’s nothing like a debutant
@@BarbzTingzzIt's pretty much alike, the only difference is that today the quinceañera can be celebrated by anyone no matter the economic background.
The quinceañera was basically the form of debutante introduced by the French and Spanish to the "new world", in Mexico it served as a mean for the Catholic church to help transition indigenous people to the catholic religion and be more willing to accept the church, the Aztecs had rituals of passage for women, the debutante idea was mixed with some of those rituals. In South America before Argentina's independence (it was Spanish conquered land) the Spanish aristocrats introduced the debutante balls which they still celebrate to this day and it continues to be a celebration that mostly high middle class and upper class can only hold, any other parent who wants to throw a quinceañera has to go on debt in order to do so as it is very expensive to have one of those parties/balls.
Quinceañera was the introduction of a young girl to society, to signal that she had become a woman and she could have more responsibilities.
There are magazines from the 1800s in the internet archive where a lot of this can be read, even experiences written by the debutantes themselves .
Yay! I was waiting for this video since I started watching period dramas like Bridgerton and learning about dollar princesses. 👑 And as I predicted, it was very informative and enjoyable! 😊 I've always been fascinated by all things luxury and high society since I was a little girl who once dreamed of becoming a princess. 👸 So this video was a treat for me. Thank you for filling this niche Mrs. Holiday! ❤
I attended my debutante ball 5 months prior to my senior prom almost 30 years ago. Yes we have come a long way as we discussed college goals & upcoming careers. It was a fascinating experience. And yes I am an American.
Les Américains étaient en retard car en Europe on était plus libre, moins coincés
@@moniquesilverans3842 are you calling us slow?? I'm sorry I don't understand French.
@@jamellfoster6029 Pas lents mais en Europe on était déjà très libre en 1960 et on sortait librement avec des amis et aux USA vous tenez compte de la communauté et vous étiez moins libres
I've been waiting on a video like this
How did you know this is EXACTLY what I needed...
I enjoyed this presentation. I especially appreciated your inclusion of the African American Debutante Ball subculture (in which I was presented in the late 70s).
I used to like to read Gothic romances when I was a teen, and none was complete without the London Season being described down to the last finite detail.
You have been fooled. Its white subculture copied from ancient Black Royalty. Dancing is core part of black culture since antiquity.
I would love to see a black American debutante history video!
"She later defected to Germany and joined the Nazi party." Talk about a plot twist!
Henry VIII did not divorce Katherine of Aragon. He had the marriage annuled.
True. He didn’t divorce either of the 2 wives usually mentioned. The marriages were annulled. If they had been divorced Mary would not have been declared illegitimate by her father. The point was he claimed he should be allowed to marry again as his first marriage was illegal as he had married his brother’s widow. (Sorry this isn’t teaching you as I realise you know all this, just a comment under yours).
Exactly. This is the reason why he separated from the Catholic Church. There is no divorce in the Catholic Church and the Pope refused to grant the annulment since the marriage was consummated.
What's funny is that I know a few debutantes who ended up not getting married. Most of them are in relationships, but they aren't engaged. Just an interesting tidbit in my life.
YESS! I've been telling my sisters the real facts the entire time we've been watching, I know Bridgerton isn't supposed to be accurate but the way they portray the background characters is infuriating
Georgiana’s name is pronounced differently, in the way the Devonshires pronounced it. It’s more like “George-ane-er”. Edit: And Devonshire is pronounced “Devon-shur”. All the -shires are pronounced “shur”, as far as I can think. I know Lindsay probably does most of her research through reading, and thus doesn’t get to hear the pronunciations. Completely understandable. And British names have crazy pronunciations, like Belvoir Castle being “beaver”, or Cholmondeley being “chumley”. We do the same in Texas with stuff like Humble, Fuqua, and Kuykendahl. They’re almost like shibboleths.
Does anyone remember the episodes of Beverly Hills 90210 (the original) where Donna chose to be a debutante? The series was kind of poking fun at it but apparently it was still a very popular event in the 1990s I remember being shocked that it was still a thing then, let alone had any idea the tradition carried on until today.
I kinda do, but I also remember debutante episodes from The OC, Gossip Girl, and Degrassi (first Manny, then Fiona).
We loved everything about this video. Thank you, Lindsay!
My now-husband and I skipped prom to go out on a date by ourselves. Considering even our inner-city high school wanted $70/person for prom tickets, it wasn't worth it.
Your documentaries are the best and so much better then any other channels❤❤❤
"Before all the good ones were taken" 🤣
You are my favorite history channel
Thats one of the most informative videos on the lifestyle of nobility and gentry of that era, the title is misleading viewer to expect a lot less than it actually offers.
As a girl who can't go to prom and loves history (I have an immunocompromised mother and COVID is still a thing where I live), it saddens me a little to see the rich history behind debutantes and their influence on prom/grad balls. It does feel like an initiation into womanhood, in a way
There are Dapper Days events and history bounding/LARPS where you can dress opulently and really enjoy it- maybe with a mask and social distancing?
I’m so sorry you don’t get to go to prom! Everyone who wants should have a chance to have one night dressed in an opulent gown and dancing with their partner and/or friends. But it’s so good of you to be aware and careful for your mother. Covid is technically still a thing everywhere, but we’ve all just really kind of moved on acting like it’s an event that has an ending, when it really doesn’t, ever. Covid and it’s mutating variants will be around forever. We’ve adapted some as a society, and adopted new protocol as part of everyday life, but it doesn’t mean everyone’s now safe and immune.
You’re very responsible and loving to be so careful for your mother. As an immunocompromised person myself, I thank you.
@@Hippidippimahm Speaking of history bounding and LARPING: My husband got me a tabletop RPG that’s like D&D only it’s a Regency house party! So you’re playing people who are in that outwardly rigid but secretly permissive society, and you’re having flirtations and rivalries and gossip and jockeying for social status. I haven’t tried it yet for two reasons. One, I’m extremely nervous because I’ve never done any role playing before, so I have stage fright, though I’ve acted a lot and done a lot of public speaking. The best solution to that problem would be to just jump in, of course, but the other problem is I have nobody to play with.
I could just start developing a character for myself. My husband plays D&D weekly and he and I developed a character for myself if I ever wanted to jump into his game for just a bit; my character and his character have a backstory together. I’m personally not all that interested in D&D but he is passionately, so I try really hard. It’s very sweet how much he wanted to incorporate me into his favorite hobby.
Anyway, I would LOVE to LARP in any time in history where I could be a rich aristocrat! I watch all those shows where people live in historical settings, like Manor House and Time Crashers and High Street. Disney made that Star Wars LARP hotel that failed miserably, but a real life version of the book Austenland (but affordable) would be my JAM! Or Edwardianland. Or Restorationland. 60sland. I have lots of times/places I’d want to “go” to!
What about you? Which time and place would you LARP in?
True...🤔
Oh yay! I'm barely into the video but so excited to learn!
I “debbed” when I was a junior in high school. For some reason in Ukrainian American culture in the Northeast US they are quite popular and put on by professional societies and fraternal organizations. I think they started back in the 50s or 60s and continue to this day. It was actually really fun and I remember it being so great to meet other girls my age. It had nothing to do with getting married or “high society”.
Ukrainian Americans? How many countries do Ukrainians need for their identity?
My high school’s tradition is graduating in a white gown 😅 I always thought it was silly but looking back it was fun and unique. The school’s moms do a great job getting donated gowns from all over the place because most of the girls are from “blue collar” “working class” families that are just barelyy eeeking by with the cost of tuition. They still do it to this day!
17:32 Wait, a woman is alone with two men! The cat will protect her reputation!
I was totally distracted by the cute kitty. 😻
One may be a brother or cousin or something.
I don't recall Scarlett O'Hara ever making a "debut" or even a debutante ball ever being mentioned in Gone With the Wind.
They called it "putting your hair up." Since Americans don't have a season. Careen Scarlets little sister is about 13-14 and they have a discussion about whether she can go out to the ball. Also Melanie talks about when Uncle Peter helped the family decide if she wasold enough to put her hair up and go to parties. After the war it was less formal.
@@elizabethlee2136 I know, putting your hair up and your skirts down. But that just means being of age to have "beaus." Not a debutante.
@@TawnyC_ Well, isn't that basically what a debutante is - a girl who's officially on the marriage market?
@@ThinWhiteAxe No. It's one that has made a formal debut to enter "society."
@@ThinWhiteAxe I think I get what the other commenter is saying. Being on the marriage market and being “in society” were slightly different. Men can know a young lady is available for proposals, but that’s different from a girl having been presented, or having “come out”, which is ALSO slightly different from allowing a girl to come downstairs for dinner and eat with the adults. To put her hair up and lower her hemlines and “put away childish things”. For example, in Mansfield Park, Fanny is allowed to socialize like a grownup but she isn’t formally “out”. I’m blanking on where else there’s a conversation about whether or not a person is or is not “out”, or if that’s the example I’m thinking of. I can picture the Crawford siblings discussing Fanny that way.
So, being “out” in terms of being a debutante is a specific form of “out in society”. Because it’s a formal presentation, a formal acknowledgment. Obviously there wasn’t a monarch to be presented to, but there was generally a ball held to make it official. A girl can have been socializing almost the same before and after her official debut, but afterwards there was a sense of greater responsibility and, well, in the past, urgency. Because of course the goal back then was always to get a wealthy husband with the right family connections. Titles of course aren’t a thing so it’s all about land and business.
I’m in a weird position of having been born and raised in the South and even admittedly been a debutante in the South, but my knowledge about the historical formalities of being a Debutante is all focused on the British version.
The social rules of the South are weird because I feel like we rarely spell them out. It’s almost 5 am and I’m here yammering about this because despite the sleeping meds and pain meds, I can’t sleep. Guess I ought to give it another try.
I hope my comment helped in some way. I really really wish I could find the exact literary conversation I’m thinking if that explains the difference between being considered an eligible young woman who can socialize with adults and being considered “out”.
Good night!
ah the new Bridgerton series celebratory content :) Haven’t watched it yet but while I wait good that I can watch this video :)
Debutant balls are pretty common still here in the South. It’s a lot fun and a great networking season.
Thank you, that was an excellent, enjoyable presentation. You’ve put a lot of time into research, thank you.
Wow! What an informative video! Loved the narration and content!
this is a great video thank you so much. You said after World War I and the flu pandemic so many young people died that priorities shifted amongst the young. I wonder if we will see any shifting of priorities now, post Covid pandemic. Have we seen anything shift yet? I do think people have become less willing or able to find places in the real world to converse. Everyone is just alone on their phone, wherever they are.
Women could inherit property especially in pre-Britain England. The vast wealth of the British Crown is in large part due to the Duchy of Lancaster that passed in through an heiress. Those women were definitely considered marriage prizes but everyone else had to scramble. There were definitely maids of honor/court ladies before Edward IV; Elizabeth herself had been in attendance on the previous queen.
Thank you❤️
At what age did these girls had their first season? could they start earlier or later? And were they really already considered spinsters if they were in their thrid season?
Usually they’d go out in their late teens, anything earlier than 17/18 was seen as slightly scandalous, and anything older than 20 was an old maid. If you weren’t married within 3 seasons, people saw it as a sign that no man wanted you
Such a well made video essay!
A woman was the property of her father until she married, then she became the property of her husband. So glad I live in modern times.
That stems from black and Asian culture and exists in those countries to this day.
@@saraswatkin9226 Where did you get that idea from? This concept goes all the way back to ancient Mesopotamia and Babylonia.
I Love the facts you present.
I only wish the speaker would articulate without emphasis on random words..the Intonation seems weird to me and for me it's hard to listen ... I'm so sorry for thos rude comment....
Oooh!!! I love yhe whole social season & bridgetton❤❤❤❤❤
I am SOOOO grateful to be born and raised in a modern era, without the ridiculous stress of needing to be married just to survive. I adore history, but a lot of it was an absolute nightmare for women.
So glad we moved past this. It’s fantasy at best. Most women didn’t have these options. And to be so dependent on a man meant women were at their mercy and it wasn’t always pretty.
Most women back then didn't have this option, either. This was for women who were of the nobility/upperclass. Debutante balls still happen today.
And some things don’t ever change.
This is random but I’m enjoying my Bridgerton-themed Bath & Body-Works scents. I got all of them in hand soaps and scent bulbs. There’s Diamond of the Season, Bridgerton Study, Wisteria Garden, Danbury Shortbread, and Queen Charlotte’s Tea. I’ve got Queen Charlotte’s Tea in my bathroom and Bridgerton Study in my den. I’ll probably put Danbury Shortbread in my kitchen or my bedroom. I don’t like Wisteria Garden or Diamond of the Season quite so much; the first one is a little too cloying and the second just isn’t my type. But I love the others. I recommend them for a fun Bridgerton tie-in! Helps you LARP as a Regency lady of the Ton!
Kick’s sister-in-law was Unity Mitford’s sister Debo, and Debo became Duchess of Devonshire.
I don't know what you are referring to , but Georgianas son-Hartibgton never married so the title of Duke of Devonshire went sideways in the families. Kathleen Kennedy was engaged to Billy Hartington ( heir apparent ) in World War two , but they both died 😢😢
@@ServraghGiorsal Debo married Billy’s younger brother. Georgiana and her son Hart were way back up in the family tree. Lindsay mentioned Unity Mitford in the video so I just wanted to mention that relation to the Cavendishes/Devonshires.
Always wonder how Kick would’ve done as Duchess. Would’ve been very interesting.
Just a tip for next time, Vauxhall pleasure gardens is pronounced like 'Vox-Haul'. I'm not even sure what the second one you said was, but I think your pronunciation was slightly off. Fabulous video though, can't wait to see more :)
I highly recommend The Season by Kristen Richardson. Super interesting read.