Donald Fagen on "whiplash"
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- Опубликовано: 6 янв 2021
- "Yow! It’s the Nightfly here with a shout-out to all the finger-poppin’ cats and kittys! What can I say? The Prez has a loose wig and it’s tragic. So dig the docs and hunker down in your hidey-holes until they say it’s cool to hit the downbeat. Check out some sounds! Stretch out your frame, and like that. Later, gate, ‘cause I gotta go!"
- Donald Fagen
"I don't care fuck him." LMAO! Donald's great.
When the Don tells you what jazz is, you listen lol. Him and Walter crafted the best jazz sounds of the 70s, and influenced multiple generations of artist (including mega-cohorts like Joni Mitchell). Such a classic, clean sound, and a level of production few, if any, bands could reach in the 1970s. They were that meticulous with albums like Aja, which sounds just as amazing today as it did in '77.
LOVE Donald in the his interview!
I couldn’t believe how open he was being in this interview it’s such a good insight to his mind
I always saw Whiplash as a bullshit but highly entertaining sports film in the world of a jazz conservatory. I quote it with my friends all the time
My lasting living Idol. Donald Fagen is and has always been the man.
Totally awesome. Don't mince words, Donald. Tell us what you really feel.
This is awesome. DF has a deep understanding of and respect for the musical giants that came before him. Not every musician does.
big deal
If he does, he didn't express it here..."fuck him" is not much of a "deep understanding" lol. A lot of those musical giants of the 30s and 40s actually agreed with Fred, that bebop was nothing more than self-indulgent noodling. Including Miles Davis's own producer, Teo Macero, who said 80% of what he played was "unlistenable garbage" lol.
@@brucesmith1544he’s saying Fuck him to the guy who made the movie
I was in shock when they showed it to the year seven music students at the school that I teach at. It’s such a cruel movie but most of the musicians I’ve met in my professional career have been great.
sorry but i dont remember asking
@@j1nsawesome whats with the attitude
@@j1nsawesome wtf lmao
@@j1nsawesomeWhat's your problem dude?
@@j1nsawesomelol
I had a music teacher that wasn't that extreme as the Whiplash one, but he was dreadful to the point I decided to quit music. Then I came back and left for other reasons, but, truth be told, bad music teachers like that, pompous, narcissistic, pretentious, abusive, and non empathetic exist. Not everything is flowers and rainbows in the music ed schools as movies as Fame make us believe.
I'd love to hear Donald's technical reasons about his dislike for the movie.
unrelated but awesome pic and name :D
he explained himself pretty well, try listening again, this time with your head out of your ass, none of that personal shit
Don't sugar-coat it, Donald. What do you REALLY think?😅
This makes me so happy.
I miss Steely Dan without Walter Becker it isn’t the same.Lol what a funny interview.😂
D. F. is amazing and a true genius and perfectionist! ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ I hope I get to meet him one day. A major hero dude for me.
Wow this is great I think I will check out the full interview!
Respect to Donald for having the balls to speak his mind..... heaven forbid anyone should be truthful these days!!
God keep blessing this man and RIP Mr Becker . Thank you for showing us how amazing music can be .
This makes me so happy! All I could think when I sat through 5 grueling minutes of Whiplash was "Full Metal Jacket meets Drum Line." I wonder if this was in fact the elevator pitch.
Great. Now I have to watch, "Whiplash".
LOVE YOU FOREVER, DF
Yes!!! The most honest opinion ever about DC.
So funny to hear The Donald. He and Walter drove the very best studio musicians to tears on those recording sessions in the 70s. Even the great Jeff Porcaro could barely cut it on the Gaucho sessions, he ended up getting replaced with a drum machine. Same with Mark Knopfler, those two put him through 10 hours of recording for a few seconds of music on Time out of mind.
I get where Don’s coming from, but I think he missed the point. The fact that Whiplash revolves around intense, collegiate jazz competitions shows what happens when an art form is forced into a sports-like environment. The teacher character is constantly pining for his great player but he’ll never find that because that kind of talent doesn’t blossom under such brute force. As a jazz drummer I of course see how silly parts of the movie are, especially when the kid’s hands start bleeding from too much practice, but I think Don’s being a little too critical. The director, Damien Chazelle, was himself a drummer for a big band in music school and interacted with hard ass teachers who valued perfection over expression. Maybe I’m the one who got it wrong, who knows?
Yeah I'm a little sad to hear about this, I'm a huge fan of Donald and I like that he's speaking his mind but he seems to be in a large category of people who just didn't understand the movie and chose to criticize it at face value.
Except the entire climax of the movie is the teacher finding his great player directly via brute force, lol
Exactly. The problem is that it’s not a sports movie. Instead it’s some childish music fantasy, or at best a psychological drama. Every time I hear people praise this film I wanna crawl out of my skin.
Yes, you are the one who got it wrong. Strong art can withstand strong criticism.
@@BradBolin this comment adds exactly nothing to this thread.
There are definitely teachers like that
Right on I totally agree with your narrative.
Whiplash's neurotic interpretation, clueless to the reality of the jazz genre origin is without a doubt the most limited version of what Jazz is, stands for and how
it has grown through time, on the importance of the impact their creators made on a universal cultural plane and ultimately the personal freedom it provides for its artists and followers on a global world stage.
Quality control is definite one of today's main ailing issues unfortunately ignored inspite of how it effects what (we think) we eat, how medicine does more bad than good for our health and on how are thought process has been taken over by marketing fantasy claims, fake news and false propaganda.
Modern music educación is a post Jazz phenomena construct that appeared
after an extended period mixed root brewing that gave birth to Jazz in the eatly 19th Century as a remarkably, fertil, thriving word of mouth musical tradition.
Donald Fagan keeps it real!!
Haha! Great attitude Man!
As Zappa once said, “Jazz ain’t dead, it just smells funny”
So, let’s have fun 🤩🎶
Spot on!
Why is everyone upset about this movie?
I'm far from a jazz aficionado the closest I get is...Steely Dan. But I've seen science fiction movies that have a more believable premise than the presentation of Jazz in Whiplash
Fagan yet again bringing out his inner Miles.
I loved that movie, but I’ll listen to what fagen says, since he and Walter Becker really pioneered their genre of music.
I love his take on La La Land fuck that movie lol
Si hubiera tenido un maestro como el de whiplash, le hubiera roto los huesos a patadas... ni un diente le quedaba..
hum had to listen again, ya you know Donald Fagen is truly one of the great songwriters in our time and i can honestly understand where he's coming from in his experiences and the things he has been through and a real understanding that is very in-depth and real awsome you know like the dukes, hum this is for real and lov him and all the rollers, WINDY
He's gangsta.
I really enjoyed Whiplash. I don't take movies seriously.
What was the reference to Fred Armisen about?
🤷🏿♀️ hopefully it was just something about Portlandia…
*edit:* nevermind, I see that Fred does a bit “on Jazz.”
Fred Armisen is the new king of aging hipster douchebags who love the smell of their own flatulence. When Anthony Bourdain died, Fred assumed the throne/toilet.
Fred did a Netflix special called Standup for Drummers.
(For me, it was a big “Huh?!” I’ve been an improvisational comedian and Jazz drummer for most of my life and I didn’t get any of it.)
Search for Huffpost tite: _J.K. Simmons Channels 'Whiplash,' Yells At 'SNL' Cast In Drum-Off_ and RUclips title: _Fred Armisen on... Jazz_ - The huffpost recounts Armisen being a surprisingly better drummer than anticipated. The YT clip backs up what the other comments state. This is all news to me. I like jazz, D.F., 'Dan, Becker
As much as I love Steely Dan, based on his reputation from other bandmates, Fagen is more like Fletcher than he realizes.
What 'bandmates'?? Steely Dan was always a duo, a songwriting partnership that wrote every song they have ever made. Thats why they brought in session players later on.
@@NmpK24 Uh, I mean steely dan used to be a singular touring band with a set list of players so you can't really say they were "always" a duo lol
Fagen’s point is that the whole movie has a surface level misunderstanding of jazz-playing at a collegiate and professional level. Yes of course there are a small number of people with the personality of Fletcher, and Fagen may be included in that number. But that isn’t what Donald is railing against
@@sgrey9181 Yeah, I know, but that’s also part of the artistic message of “Whiplash”.
Jazz, a traditionally explorative and exciting form of music, gains a sort of brutal, robotic air in Whiplash because of Fletcher’s authority. The most true ‘Jazz’ parts of the movie are Fletcher playing piano in the club, for his job and enjoyment, and Neiman playing the solo at the end in defiance of Fletcher.
Fagen can dislike the movie, but his motte and Bailey style of critique is frustrating, when you fundamentally ignore or don’t understand part of the movie, then you don’t get to run behind your status as a defence
Nimby rant. Still love him though.
🤣😂🤣😂 The DON!!
I’ve found that anyone who knows anything about music, ie, Steve Gadd, Rick Beato, have had the same opinion of that film as Fagen
As someone who’s first experience of jazz was being goaded into my junior high and high school’s competitive big band, Don is spot on about how misguided that whole scene really is. Megalomania is a feature, not a bug, with the band teachers (failed drumline performers) and “jazz instructors” (more miserable failed drumline performers) that I dealt with during this point in my life. The worthless demand for perfection over expression turned me off of playing music after I graduated from high school. It was only in my mid 20s that I began to approach jazz music on my own terms. There needs to be more on how absolutely, pointlessly soul crushing competitive student big bands are because whiplash is just a jazz themed sports thriller.
I love Dan Fagen. Steely Dan was always my favorite because their music was smart.
I actually really like the movie...however Donald's take is really funny! Someone like him only becomes the songwriter he is from having very strong views on things!
It’s the same reason true fans of Batman hate the Dark Knight. It’s a really great film but it doesn’t really understand the fundamentals of a Batman story past the very surface level.
it's not my tempo
What? I love that scene "Not my kind of tempo."
I get what you all are saying, but when I saw it I thought "oh this guy is the Vince Lombardi of music teachers. When you talk to the ol Green Bay Packer greats back then, all of them would say they hated him at practice and the game BUT all of them cried the hardest at his funeral. That was just the part that was never shown in the movie. That this teacher saw the greatness in this kid but would never acknowledge it, always pushing and never allowing any complacency to set in order for this kid to see for himself just how great he could be. But like I said that was the part of the movie not written.
Love donald but man this is the epitome of jazz-elitism that keeps so many people away from the genre. You have to “get it” to be able to enjoy it- what a joke lol. Of course to fagen this isn’t his idea of jazz but that’s not the point of the film, it’s a wonderful movie so you shouldn’t feel bad for liking it if u do. I guess the man truly is a cynic at heart and that’s why we love him.
i liked whiplash. my bad guys
In addition to the Jazz critiques here, the plot made no sense to me. The teacher was trying to ruin the student's performance at end of the film. If he succeeded it would have reflected on the teacher's own standing. Also, it was corny that the teacher went from sabotage to encouragement mid song.
Sounds formulaic, which is why I haven't watched it. But NOW I HAVE to. Thanks, DF!
It’s because he’s an irrational guy, and he ultimately didn’t want to sabotage him, it was an impossible test that the kid passed.
Whiplash was sooo ridiculous and over the top! Hollywood thinks they have to hit their audience over the head with a 2 x 4 just to get their attention. Besides, no music teacher that maniacal could survive cause they would get their ass kicked on a regular basis!
It's not supposed to be realistic dog
He's right about everything technically but Whiplash is still a cool movie.
I agree. I think the musical aspect was just the scene for the phycological thriller.
Whiplash would have made sense if it were about weightlifting or MMA.
I could only watch it once because the treatment of jazz in the film was a joke. I wanted to like it more since we don't get a lot of films on jazz...but with a teacher like that, I would have flung a cymbal right through his neck.
It's a good drama but a GARBAGE representation of JAZZ & music in general.
Fair game if he doesn't happen to like the movie, but I think it's silly for him to pretend that "Whiplash" is intended to be the definitive movie about The Jazz Experience. The milieu depicted in that picture doesn't reflect Donald's experience or the daily realities of most professional jazz musicians. The thing is, it doesn't need to, and it isn't trying to be that movie. It's about a very particular guy in a very particular Conservatory with a very particular teacher, and the psychological dynamics that develop. If Fagen thought it was supposed to accurately depict the struggles of your average young musician, that's his problem, not the movie's. He's flat out refusing to engage with it on its own terms. Which is fine, people do that all the time, but he's strangely cocky and bitter about it in this interview.
I'd say if ANYONE was in a position to critique a movie that uses jazz as it's vehicle it's Donald Fagen. And what he said about the writer \ director is, ""FUCK THAT MUTHERFUCKER!". "He doesn't even know what jazz IS.". "He must be really DUMB." DF is the best.
Nobody said shit about the movie being intended to be the definitive movie about The Jazz Experience. You just made that up. Completely.
All that moive accomplished was to make a bunch of ignorant people even more ignorant.
I definitely agree with what you said. Steely Dan is an awesome band with great tracks. But they're not a jazz band. This movie is specific. I'm sure there has been a situation where at a conservatory there is a teacher who is a bit of an asshole. This movie just Hollywood's that idea and comes up with a pretty cool story.
@@effsixteenblock50 It's the underlying premise of Fagen's critique. He's upset that Chazelle "doesn't know what [jazz] is", as if there are only a limited number of ways to depict the life of a jazz musician, and if a particular narrative doesn't comport with his understanding of what that means, it must be invalid.
His objection boils down to "why doesn't this movie reflect experiences that I'm familiar with or those that I've read about?". This is an uninsightful critique almost anywhere you find it, stemming from standpoint epistemology, and it tells you more about the observer's limitations than about the piece.
@@flaccidusminimus2170
You've given no evidence as to why you came to that conclusion nor any evidence that that was truly DF's train of thought on the matter.
Really though, if you'd ever been in a real-life situation that parallels what that movie was supposed to be about, you'd realize just how ridiculous it is on so many levels.
So ridiculous in fact, that the "villain" in the movie was a caricature of someone who doesn't exist.
It’s a movie. It’s not supposed to be realistic.
Also it ain’t about jazz. It’s about the sacrifices you have to make for success
But jazz is the movie's metaphor FOR that concept of sacrificing for success, in a silly way that betrays a bizarre misunderstanding of jazz as being some kind of musical sport, rather than an art.
"It's a movie, therefore it can make up whatever bullshit it wants!"
Nice cope
I think if someone makes a movie about jazz or anything for that matter, they should know what they’re talking about. Damien Chazelle could’ve at least consulted someone about jazz.
I think he did do jazz in school, so the film only shows that world. Not necessarily the wider world of jazz, but the movie really isn’t about that anyway.
Whiplash was so bad and so offensive that I can’t even watch that guy’s insurance commercials anymore.
well I don't know anything about whiplash other than its something rather unpleasant after a car wreck
I think Fagen's criticism is valid, but it's really ironic coming from him considering how Steely Dan's career arc culminating with GAUCHO is them stripping improvisation from jazz in favor of studio perfectionism.
He never said Steely Dan was jazz..
@@basehead617 Yeah, but if you're acting as an authority on Jazz music, you need to have something to back you up. Damian Chazelle played as a jazz drummer for years in high circles, and wrote Whiplash based on his experiences. If you're arguing that Steely Dan ain't jazz then you need to back up why I should trust a seventy year old who's student band kicked off into a yacht rock group.
Who said jazz is a joke??
In a nutshell the Jazz genre phenomena is not -music ed.
Whiplash is all about a tormented perfection obsesed teather, sadistic educacional protcol and treating young people like shit.
It's also about a perfection obsessed student, who can't even begin to grasp the concept of jazz being FUN
Whiplash reviews has separated 'narcissistic know it alls' from the more stable mind.
There are those who need to be seen to know everything about music and so, heavily criticise that movie.
Yeah whiplash really harped on that whole "people won't be great unless you treat them like garbage" BS. I also loathe how much drum related injuries become glamorized. Drum injuries SUCK, and are the sign of bad technique or straight up over-exertion. There's nothing cool about elbow tendinitis and nerve pain.
This comment section is full of people who understand a lot about jazz and absolutely nothing about storytelling!
two against nature
Another AMAZING SD album.
Nobody was acting like white people invented jazz
Could not agree more with DF’s comments, especially the,”f*ck him.” It shocks the mind to those of us who are roughly Donalds’ age, when we see egregious examples of lack of knowledge or distortions of facts play out in media concerning music, literature etc…. Much of it is simply laziness. Speaking, as they were, about low hanging fruit, I thought of those reaction channels, where a 5 yr old listens to a composition, and not only has no understanding of what they heard, but had no useable vocabulary to describe the experience. The lack of shame about that ignorance is put on display daily, and has become ubiquitous. DF’s right,”F*ck em.”
Why is the response “fuck him” tho? What good does having a negative reaction and feeling towards ignorance in the world of music do? Ill be honest, i dont know jack shit about music so I wont speak on anything, but I am always fascinated and intrigued by the complexities of each genre, especially jazz, classic rock, etc, but if I have some old fuck telling me to “fuck off” just because I dont know anything about it, im certainly not going to be very passionate about trying to further pursue the art.
Whiplash was un ugly movie about ugly people.
Those guys are really missing the point of Whiplash huh...
Which is...?
@xebio6
It's a story of being pushed to the limits and the do-or-die determination of two characters trying to become the very best in their fields.
It's not meant to be a picture perfect representation of jazz or jazz education. Jazz here is used as a story telling device.
We wouldn't judge any other movie on the basis of how realistic the storytelling device is (unless of course it's advertised as such).
Kinda sad to see an acomplished artist like Donald Fagen miss that and be so assmad about the movie.
Edit: spelling
@@KiLLeRNaSTYY on the other hand, Fagen has enough experience both with teachers, musicians and his own career to hold that opinion. I don't know what level of credibility you bring to the table...
@@RaisedLetter
I mean... Fagen is doing the Neil deGrasse Tyson thing here,
where he complains that the storytelling device is unrealistic and then dismisses the rest of the movie because of it.
What he's saying in the interview would be valid if Whiplash was advertised like a "jazzschool documentary" or something like that.
As for my credibility I'm pretty confident that I've directed/produced just as many movies as the Nightfly himself ;)
@@KiLLeRNaSTYY yeah because it makes sense for training in the olympics or being top pick in college football. The knowledge for what makes a great movie has the ability to corrupts logical things or core values in any genre.
From my own experience of being in school bands, (concert, jazz, and marching) I’ve never heard of a chair being hurled to make a point or killing yourself over being too flat. Highly exaggerated, highly unrealistic in any level of music. Jazz in particular seems like the worst possible type of band to use for this. Drumline somehow could make a more coherent story work with movie magic.
What sort of offends me about Donald's snobbery and the fact that he was offended by Fred Armisen is that all the jazz solos he got from big name jazz artists like Wayne Shorter, Pete Christlieb, etc, is that NONE of it sounds like real jazz, but rather their solos sound like slightly jazz flavored pop melodies. So somehow when Fred Armisen plays hard bop jazz that sounds like chaotic random notes he is offended people cant hear the melody in it. None of the music that Wayne Shorter played outside of the Steely Dan solos sound like that, all his other stuff just sounds like hard jazz which sounds like just melodic rambling at best. So I have respect that Donald and Walter got all these jazz greats to play music that sounds like normal music and not jazz. But Donald needs to understand that is the case and not be surprised when people are repulsed by the 'real jazz' that these guys played on all their other stuff.
Although I agree with some of his opinions on this clip, I think it’s bad form to trash other people so brashly. I personally think his music is terribly boring and overproduced, but if I was in his position of being interviewed for a podcast, I wouldn’t be spewing my hot takes about how steely dan has only been influential to yacht rock and appeals mostly to intermediate-level musicians
The difference is nobody cares what your "hot takes" are, especially if they are so objectively wrong
Found the intermediate-level musician
Interesting how all the (best of the best) musicians that played on the records uniformly agree they're the best things they ever played on..
I know! Who wouldn’t love playing simple fare for major-label money?
Jesus is the answer. He is the ONLY way to the Father in Heaven. Believe in and OBEY the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, get baptized, receive the Holy Spirit and be saved!
Fred Armisen is funny. Whiplash sucks.
I love the movie. As most of the philistine audiences have.
The ending moment...was one of the few occasions where God presented himself through the eyes of man. Glorious.
As for DF...lest we forget any proper jazz fan laughs off SD as garbage schmaltz Muzak replete with mu chords any aged grandma would love.
But don’t listen to me, research Chevy Chase’s quote, it’s hysterical.
I gave myself whiplash getting up to turn that shit movie off
Worst movie ever made. Nothing comes close.
Absolutely an L take
Filthy language. What a shame.
Whiplash is one of the WORST movies ever made! Anyone with just a tiny understanding of music will agree.
Whiplash is a GREAT movie. Anyone with just a tiny understanding of filmaking will agree.