That would be amazing! I think that if I was using a real disc the difference between one disc and another would be less than the other variables introduced by my less than perfect rig. Trying to get the smoothest bearings and get everything balanced would be extremely difficult. To show the effect in an easy to see way I think this arrangement worked well. Someone with better craftsmanship could build a much improved rig and it would be cool to see that at even higher frame rates.
You don't really need to. As long as you have something that is set up like Doth's experiment, you can see the effect. Another classic is to take two cylinders of the same diameter, one hollow and one solid and roll them down a ramp. Which one wins? The solid one, as the one with the weight further from the center of rotation is HARDER TO GET SPINNING. Thus, as Doth mentioned in the video, the overmolds would be harder to throw straight vs the same weight of disc in a single shot disc bcs you just can't get as much spin on the overmold.
Very cool and probably explains why I only like lower speed stuff from mvp. The only thought I have is where the energy originates from in this experiment. With a throw your grabbing the rim and I would therefore assume the energy starts there instead of having energy applied directly to the center as in this experiment.
I came here to comment exactly this. Do the experiment over with the "tug" around the rim instead of from the center. Might not make a difference, but would mimic the physics of a real world throw better.
I like the setup. Very good visual to demonstrate the concept of rotational (moment of) inertia; the object's resistance to a change in its state of rotation. Mass of the disc and batteries is the same, but placement of the batteries closer to or further from the axis of rotation dictate the disc's ability to speed up (or slow down) its rotation. It follows the rotational analogue of Newton's Second Law F=ma, which is T=IA where T is torque, I is rotational inertia, and A is angular (rotational) acceleration. Torque by definition is the (cross) product of the lever arm and Force. In your rig, the lever arm was consistent (the diameter of the wood block that the string wrapped around) and the force was constant (the drop weight) so that it pulled like a lawnmower starter to provide the twisting force. Again, great setup, demonstrates that with the same torque, large rotational inertia means low rotational acceleration and small rotational inertia means high rotational acceleration. But I think you jump to an erroneous conclusion by saying that the idea of pushing mass to the edge (increasing rotational inertia) is detrimental because it causes a lower spin rate for the same amount of force (torque). If that were true, drivers would push their mass to the flight plate and have hollow wings, when in fact all disc manufacturers make their highest speed discs with their masses pushed outwards to take advantage of gyro. MVP just draws attention to it with their high contrast overmolds. As you demonstrated, the larger rotational inertia disc spins for a longer period of time. In flight, this translates to a longer delay in the start of the fade (particularly on higher speed discs). Discs slow their rotations down during flight and for long distance flights with a lot of air time, the higher rotational inertia keeps it spinning and cutting through the air as it slows from the air resistance. Just as your bicycle is steady as long as you are moving, once the wheels slow down too much, you start to tip over. As your disc in flight slows its rotation, it is more susceptible to its wing shape catching the air and beginning to pitch up. When the front side starts to lift (for a RHBH throw or clockwise rotation as you look down from the sky), the disc will tilt to the left, and this is the fade. MVP's gyro claim is simply that having the higher rotational inertia, their discs will hold the low speed stability longer like a flywheel and delay the fade.
I personally have had a lot of success with MVP discs. I tend to have the most success when I get an MVP disc in a lighter weight. This goes to your point of acceleration, velocity and spin. For example I would get a 165 - 167 Gram MVP Volt when I would usually get a similar disc without an over-mold in 172 - 175 Grams. Takes less energy for me to accelerate and generate spin.
this was my first thougth, never trown a mvp, just started playing this year, and fist of, what weight would be the difference to achive the same spinn ratio. so this would be fun to see an experiment on as well
Something to think about, and I'm not sure this was addressed. It may have been, and I didn't catch it. The difference here is that the distribution of the weight affects the rate at which the string is being used, with the weight on the end. So it might take 5 seconds for one string to fall away (core), and 6 for the other (edge). This affects the spin rate at the start. When you have a human throwing both discs, there isn't a 83% differential (or whatever) in the amount of spin at the start of the throw (the moment the disc is released from the hand). So the rate of spin initially is the same at the moment of release. Not so with the plate test. That's not to say the dynamics are equal past the moment of release, but I think the initial spin rate is likely the same. If you could duplicate this test and show the same rate of spin at the moment of release, it might make for some different dynamics. Maybe a smaller difference up front. Regardless, thank you for the time and effort (and likely expense) of doing this test. Definitely something to mull over.
Yes you are right that the string unwinding at different rates is not a direct representation of a throw where the disc is released from the hand. However with two discs being thrown with the same amount of energy applied to them we still see that the weighted rim spins slower. The fact that angular momentum is harder to apply with a weighted rim persists regardless. If I where to do a timed release with the ropes(making the rope for the weighted rim shorter so it would release at the same time) then we would see an even more exaggerated difference of spin speed. The weighted time in that case would be very slow spinning and would stop spinning before the core weighted disc. So if we use a timed release instead of a release based on equal energy imparted then the outcome is that a person throwing will have even less spin than what I am showing and the disc will not stay spinning longer. Your point I think is great, but it brought you to the wrong conclusion, the spin rate would not be closer to each other, but farther apart.
Out of curiosity, how do you explain the ridiculous distances attained by people throwing aerobie rings? I tend to think that the disc’s ability to snap out of my hand would be roughly the same no matter the weight distribution, because my elbow, wrist, and fingers are all moving the same speed, and an aerobie ring has all its weight at the “rim,” and those things go stupidly far, if you know what youre doing Alternatively, couldnt you simply throw a less stable mold and get the same/better result since youd be taking advantage of the rotational physics while throwing a disc with intrinsically less fade?
With the right mold the gyro discs stay straight beyond belief. Axiom proxy. Axiom alias. MVP atom. But yes for drivers they will have their fade portion later in flight and a little more dramatic. Since that low speed energy is now pulling at the wing. They make so many great discs though. And streamline are single mold and are excellent.
The Crave is doing some pretty amazing things for me right now and it stays straight really well. I feel like there is something to that happening when you have the arm speed to throw the disc at a higher velocity than what its numbers are. A combination of the slower spin but balancing that out with a higher speed throw might be where the magic is. So yes maybe rim weighted discs can stay straighter longer as long as you compare a lower speed rim weighted disc to a higher speed single shot? Also Mint and TSA have some really awesome molds. Im throwing Pathfinder, Bobcat, Animus, and Mantra right now.
So the question I would have would be how fast does a single mold disc's rpms slow down vs an overmold. Also another thought: I assume that higher rpms will also give you more high speed turn and less low speed fade and lower rpms less hihg speed turn and more low speed fade. It looks like since you have faster spin at the start on a single mold you would get more high speed turn but a bit more over stable at the end of the spin rate slows to a slower rpm than the over mold. So if I am correct in my assumption, and assuming you throw 2 discs with identical flight characteristics but with one being a single mold and one being an over mold them you should get more turn and more fade out of a single mold disc and less turn and less fad out of an over mold. I would be interested in your thoughts on my assumptions.
I don’t think is necessarily true. To my knowledge of physics, I think that the weighted rim increases the moment of inertia, which determine the discs resistance to change in rotation velocity. A gyro will stay stable in the air for longer than most discs, although it’s not life changing. Usually a player who can’t get enough spin on a disc will try to throw more overstable discs because they pick up spin faster and want to fall to the left for a RHBH shot. That’s why you see a lot of people chucking forehand flex shots with firebirds because they can’t get spin on the disc forehand. Otherwise a shot with little spin will turn over. I would recommend understable gyro discs personally. I rip on my Axiom Mayhem.
"weighted rim increases the moment of inertia, which determine the discs resistance to change in rotation velocity." This is correct, it resists change in both speeding up and slowing down. Harder to speed up spin, and harder to slow down spin. That is exactly what my demonstration shows.
@@DothSavek I might be wrong but here is what I think. When you throw a disc, it leave your hand with a initial rotational velocity. Unless you're throwing a overstable disc the rotational velocity will not increase after it leaves your hand. Does that make sense? The thrower is responsible for getting the disc up to speed not the disc.
yes, just like the red rope being pulled by a weight is imparting initial rotational velocity. Once the rope lets go the rotation does not increase anymore, just as once a disc leaves the hand it does not increase rotational velocity any more.
Everyone I've recommended the Insanity to loved it, easy distance. If you can find one in the prism prototype plastic I can't recommend it enough it has a fantastic flight path and I swear that thing is indestructible. My plasma Fireball has great grip in the cold wet Maine winter rounds. I also feel the overmold tends to resist damage better. I grabbed a Mayhem for fun since I rarely throw high speed discs and have been suprised how far it goes for me. Might make it into my permanent warm weather bag, as most courses in the winter here don't allow for big run ups so I'm frequently throwing my Buzzz, Eagles and Leopard 3s from a stand still until spring.
This is from the MVP website: "Increasing a disc’s moment of inertia will increase its angular momentum" & "Increased angular momentum of a disc in flight will allow the disc to stay on its rotational axis for a longer period of time" (Think of a spinning top) Angular momentum = Moment of Inertia x Angular velocity. What it should say is Increased angular momentum, WHILE MAINTAINING THE SAME ANGULAR VELOCITY, of a disc in flight will allow the disc to stay on its rotational axis for a longer period of time. Staying on its rotational axis longer doesn't necessarily result in long flight. Longer flight requires higher release velocity + higher angular velocity. However, raising the MOI for the same amount of applied torque will result in a slower angular velocity. Resulting in about the same angular momentum. Meaning the gyroscopic effect will be about the same. Because of the higher MOI, you have to put more torque in to the spin, to achieve the same angular velocity, in order to realize the advantage of moving more weight to the rim. I suppose some pros can do this. Maybe a better demonstration would be to get several tops of various diameters. Spin them at the same angular velocity. Witness how long each one stays up. In my opinion, Your demo exaggerates the difference between a single mold disc and a over mold. There's not that huge of a difference. All golf discs have gyroscopic effect working for them. Otherwise they would not fly straight. Wobble. An issue of learning how to throw forearms is wobble. Putting more spin on the disc makes it more stable, because of the gyroscopic effect, and the wobble goes away.. After watching your video I got my leopard out, which has the same flight numbers as the relay, and started comparing them. However, they are not a perfect match. 1. They have different rim configurations (see pdga disc specs.) 2. The leopard weighs about 10 grams more. Also, the leopard is significantly more domey which, I believe, gives it more lift. But, the leopard has similar weight distribution as the relay.
I enjoyed the demo, but I wonder if you get the same result, if you were pulling from the outer rim, instead of from the center. Regardless, I think with MVP disc selection is very important. Not just with picking a molds stability, but with the weights also. I think most people trying MVP for the 1st time automatically go with max weight because that's what they're use to doing with other brands. Thing is, with the extra weight in the outermold it's more difficult to get them up to speed, which is exactly what you experienced (crashing hard), and what was supported by your demo. I see this as a feature, where a lighter weight or slower disc should be selected. Moving the weight to the rim, is like adding more weight and stability to the disc. So perhaps a 175 gram mold from MVP is the equivalent to 190 grams from another company, as far as spin rate is concerned. On the other end, lighter discs have potential to fly farther, but are more affected by the wind. There are trade offs.
Lots of good comments in there Keith. The difference of putting the string on the rim vs the core would still show the same result. There are similar tests done out there regarding angular moment and moment of inertia, using a solid cylinder vs a hollow cylinder of the same diameter and rolling both down a ramp(which simulates wrapping string on the outer edge) and the results are the same.
@@DothSavek I was just thinking about what's missing here. It's one very crucial element: wind. A flying spinning disc with more mass in it's center would be harder to control. Stability is missing. We know why pros throw heavier discs. It's because it gives them better control in the wind. More stability = more control in the wind. Moving weight to the rim, adds more flight stability. Perhaps too much stability for weaker arms. Seems like an obvious omission now. You should re-visit this.
Thanks for the demo & explanation I am just getting into disc golf and love the physics. I initially had, I think, some of the same questions about timed release as some of the other comments. I know the physics says the the weighted rim should spin longer but because the strings did not stop imparting force at the same time it was hard for me to tell how long each plate spun for after all the energy was finished being applied. I think it would be great if you overlayed a timer that showed how long the plate spun for after the force was applied. That way you don't have to cut strings to time a release and don't have to stagger start the spinning to get the strings to finish imparting their energy at the same time. So while equal energy was applied to both plates then you would measure how long the plate spins for from the time the string comes off until the plate stops spinning. I think from watching the video a few times that it will still show that the rim weighted plate spun longer but I think it would solve some of the questions about timed release and equal energy imparted and give a real clear time of difference in spin time.
Man I'm not sure about the variables. I'd think that if you can generate enough spin in general then the more weight on the rim you can handle. MVP represents the extreme end of that spectrum. So technically, it just takes a ton of spin to use them correctly, mainly top pros most likely. The arguments you are using against MVP, are the same arguments against a newbie throwing high speed drivers where the weight is more in the rim causing them to fade too hard at the end. As a player progresses, those high speed big rim discs fly straighter. Thoughts?
Yea I hear you Rusty. Just showing off what can be easily demonstrated as I think its mostly overlooked when folks talk about the difference between a double shot and a single shot disc. It would be really cool to be able to measure and put a number on the spin achieved by top pros.
That’s probably why I’ve never liked MVP. For me the plastic feels like I can’t get a grip it’s too slick and the disc just never do anything that would stand out always mediocre for me.
@@DothSavek Before Ezra Aderhold signed with discraft he did a video of several companies destroyer-like driver and did lots of throws on different lines. MVP was middle of the pack every time. That's all I needed to see, to see that their claims were bunk. A dude who can crush 550+ consistently isn't getting more distance out of an MVP, then my noodle arm sure as hell isn't going to either. That said I do like their mids.
@@Greldek a photon is probably not the best choice to compare to a destroyer. Mvp has farther flying discs than the photon. My photons often fly like firebirds. That said ive kind of given up on the mvp distance drivers because 11 speeds fly great for me. If i could overpower nukes, id look into mvp again. The envy and crave are really great discs id recommend for everyone.
This checks out - been hucking MVP since they only had putters and mids, and on average you need to get that SNAP in for them to fly good, otherwise they just fall out of the sky. I wonder what effect the overmold has on in-flight stability though, and resistance to torque. In my experience understable MVP doesn't crash and burn like most others, they seem to drift more than turn.
Cool demo Doth! ... I used to throw MVP strictly ... I like some of them, love some of them ...etc ... my absolute longest throws have NOT come from MVP discs though ... :) Cheers!
They make some great stuff for sure! I want to throw them just for their great art and stamps if nothing else! Will be way psyched if they sign Conrad.
But does your throw has less spin from the beginning because its an overmold? Wouldn't your throw start with the same spin regardless of overmold or not, but overmold will keep than spin for longer? The snap and movement dont have anything to do with the disc, nothing but your self have to "drag" the spin into action.
Awesome man. I love it. You say everyone is trying to get more spin. I wonder if you could elaborate on what specific techniques actual generate more spin? Possibly even invite high level pros to discuss such things. I know you haven't presented yourself as someone who does a ton of form critique but your analytical nature would seem to make you the perfect candidate to begin to really discuss "proper" form as this sport is just now beginning to dial in consistent form. A decade or two ago, even at the highest level you saw more variation in technique from player to player. Recently, especially in young players, it seems that the science of technique is starting to be more consistently dialed in in the way that a golf swing or basketball free throw has been. Obviously there is still a lot of variation, but less than in recent years to my mind. Or....if you don't care to get into technique side of things just keep doing what you're doing. I love it.
Thanks Justin, yea I have been working on improving my abilities to coach and offer form advice. I have a little series going of form reviews on my stream vods if you are curious about it. I have reviewed 13 peoples form on my streams so far. It is helping to chalange me to be better at understanding form.
@@DothSavek Ha. I just watch a bunch of the first form review video you did. Of course you were already working on what I was requesting. So far, as with the other videos of yours I've watched, I really appreciate your approach and I'm sure you'll get better and better at it. I'll definitely watch the rest. Thanks again.
To properly introduce wobble would require a completely different bearing that would be far more complicated. If you want to try and can think of a way to build it then please go ahead and let us know the results!
I've kind of thought something like this is true (more weight at edge means harder to getting spinning a lot, but will keep spinning for longer), but it's nice to see it demonstrated. I mean, it is basically the same thing as going from a midrange to a distance driver. What I'm still unsure of are the practical consequences. Does this mean that all their overmolds fly like one category faster? Like do their kids feel like fairways? Not exactly sure. And as you sort of mention, if most of their discs are low power beefy, then controlling fade for overmolds would be something new to learn and get used to as compared to single shot. Ultimately I stick to single shots (minus my Nova) because I just don't have much power or snap, and they just fly too differently than single shots than I'm willing to get used to, but I can see how high power/snap players could love overmolds company discs
Yea I can't responsibly comment as to practical consequences. I just wanted to show its not a magic bullet. I love some MVP and Axiom but I don't think there is any big advantage to over mold as some claim
I just wonder if the differing spin rates require a method that rotates the disc at its axis like what's shown in this video. When throwing a disc, body and arm motion isn't slowed or affected at all by the weight distribution in the disc because it's not rotating the disc. the spin all happens upon release
The spin happens because of the energy imparted on the disc by the person throwing. A disc with more weight on the rim that receives the same amount of energy imparted will rotate more slowly compared to a disc with more weight in the core.
@@DothSavek You know, it does make sense what you're saying. Another example are ice skaters who spin very fast with their arms close to their bodies or relatively more slowly when they have their arms extended
it would be interesting to know exactly how much weight distribution change happens with an overmolded disc vs a single shot disc. In other words, if you take the same disc how many grams of weight are moved to the rim from the middle of the disc. I would imagine that you would be able to see the weight distribution in 3D CAD between one and the other but the manufacturers aren't letting us see that. In order for the demonstration above to represent what is actually going on, the amount of weight moved from inner to outer would have to be correct. On another note, I've noticed that some of the MVP discs seem to have a very predictable flight. I wonder now, after seeing this, if that has to do with a slower spin rate at release which has less effect on the high speed turn than a disc that is spinning faster. For example, I've been experimenting with some lightweight but very stable high speed discs. With the extra velocity at release, they behave less stable then the same disc in normal weight. However, I've not put any in my bag for good because I find them to be much less predictable with regard to high speed turn and low speed fade.
Yea Tony, if figured a way to get accurate measurements for weight distribution we would be well on our way to some better demonstrations. Another huge thing would be to get some real numbers for rpm at release for a 45mph thrower vs a 70mph throw and many examples in between(I know 2 people throwing at 50mph will have different amounts of spin imparted) to build a known spectrum of rpm that can then be reproduced. The remaining battles then for a test rig are the drag on the central bearing and lack of air resistance. All cool stuff to think about for sure. I have heard folks refer to some data of weight distribution data that was gathered by someone cutting up a disc. I'm trying to track down that info now. I am having trouble thinking of a way to get good data myself by cutting and weighing.
As a former collegiate thrower, discus and hammer mostly, so much of the flight mechanics for discs seems SO behind the flight analysis and knowledge for other throwing sports. I was a thrower in the 90s and just now manufactures are going for more rim weight? Pros and cons to it. Same as with a discus. Most people do better without the over edge weight. It is hit or big miss. The center mass has a larger margin of error and allows most to perform better than a “high end, rim weighted disc”.
Makes sense that it would be harder to get up to full spin speed. I throw an undertaker for most drives and even at similar weights the tesla is just much beefier. Same with my 165g Photon, it seems a lot faster than it should be. I can throw the hell out of my max weight Servo though. Its only a 6.5 speed but flys farther than either the tesla or photon. The gyro extra beef is why i went with the Deflector for my meat hook mid. Any anyhyzer angle or power and it will always not turn over.
Yea, I have stepped all the way down to a Crave to get controllable straight finishes. Where with a single shot I can get 12 speed destroyers to have a similarly straight finish.
would love to see this experiment done with some mvp discs and an eqevalent made traditional way. as in the HEX and BUZZZ same weight as well. so they are so equal as possible. use a sharpy and mark the edge so you can slow down it to see the difference in spinn speeed. as this shows the concept sure, one disc two batteries and some tape. sure proof of concept. as first qusetion i get. is that the weight is more evenly spaced at the center of the disc becuse it's lass mass seperating the two batteris and then at the edge, its a lot of relastate between the two battaries, so the energy then get pushed in to two points rather then a disc. if this makes sense. ser yes it would take more energy to get the spinn, as there is a greater distance for the mass to travle, hens the speed of the disc is differnt then if it was cast in one mold and evenly distribute weight, if this makes sense. but it would be more stable. then a traditional made disc. but what would happen if you used or would it be any differce between this experiment, if it where done with am axiom hex and the buzzz or any other 5 5 -1 1 disc. or any other. and se where the weight for equal spill lies. lets assume that hex and a buzzz at 175g gives this result, but a hex at 165g (if they make one that is) and a buzzz at 183g have the same spinn speed. then this would actually be intersting to find out. this is just guessing on my part. but these where my thouths i got from watching your viedo. I have dyslexia so hope i made meg self understood. kinda want ot get some mvp discs my self. just started this year but was drawn to the mvp disc, right away. don't know why, they just or the one I got to hold, just felt right, was that gyro rim that feelt rigth to me. never trown one, just picked it up in the store and then the guy working there came over and how long have you playd. my avnser, never and then i got a midrage, think it was that mako3 or something like that, ended up getting the buzzz as my nephew loves that disc and has one in the z line and i got the esp. but i have ordred some disc from mvp, as i cant shake that feeling those disc had in my hand
Maybe this is why I find all MVP discs to be slightly more stable than the numbers rate them as. I don't have a big arm, or great technique, and when I throw overmolds, for me they seems to be more OS than usual. I also notice when I throw like a Wave, imo, the disc is spinning slower in the air, which your video is kinda proving my thought could be correct. The wave still launches, but it very well could be spinning slower than say a wraith or Hades is. This could explain why I enjoy throwing their FDs, mids and putters, but then I kind of top out around 7-8 speed with overmold discs. Great video, Doth!
Love the content, but I'm not sold on this experiment. This does not translate to real world application IMO. Again, I appreciate it, but I think you set up this experiment to confirm your predetermined conclusion. Regardless, it is interesting and opens the discussion. Thanks again for conceptualizing this and sharing, but I'm not sold on your conclusions.
Do we know the percentage difference in weight distribution for MVP Discs? In addition to what you stated I wonder how big of a difference there is. I completely agree with your experiment and when the conversation comes up I'll be forwarding people to the video.
In a reply to another comment on this video I linked a test where discs where cut apart and weighed. I think it was around 5% more weight near the esge of the rim
@@DothSavek it would be cool then, if you made the experiment with the weights near the edge being 5% heavier than the centered ones, just to see how big of a difference it would make. Super nice content on your channel btw :)
Thanks Doth! As always, you bring some clear thinking to disc golf. Anyone interested in this topic should also check out our man Oscar Fehlberg's inquiry into angular momentum (by creating a steel rimmed disc) ruclips.net/video/9PA_knbLAnY/видео.html . He comes at this from a different angle, but reaches a similar conclusion.
I see what you're going for here but there are a lot of variables you skipped here. Like we don't know if any of this data scales up in a linear way or if it's exponential. Or say if there is a spin rate on the disc where you see diminishing returns regarding glide. Or WHEN that spin is most important. MVP discs crash hard because of their tendency to have flat flight plates. A flat disc (generally) will flip up AND fade a little more than it's domey counterpart. This experiment you've set up only demonstrates one variable. I think this is going to be really misleading to most people, which is a bummer because clearly you have good intentions. You're just missing literally all of the rest of the physics involved in a disc's flight.
Very misleading as you watch the red string, acceleration didn’t stop at the same time, you need to have equal rpm at release to really show of the overmold spins longer, which isn’t backed by physics, just as figure skaters tuck in arms to save on radial momentum, a disc will work the same, the benefit to an overmold rim where the weight is concentrated on the rim is that it will very quickly correct its axis to the angular momentum.
"acceleration didn't stop at the same time" that is one of the major points here, weight outside=harder/takes longer to get spinning. "you need to have equal rpm at release to show off the overmold spins longer..." The whole point of the demonstration is to show that with the same energy imparted(same person throwing both discs) the rim weighted disc will not spin as fast when it leaves their hand.
Agree. The RPM needs to be the same then check the results. I also disagree with the assumption that a disc needs "time" to get up to full rpm, it happens quite quickly. I appreciate the work, but Its a flawed test. Why not just take two discs of equal weight and in the test. The distribution of weight with his batteries is very poor also. We all know things spin faster, like a figure skater doing a spin goes faster with thier arms tucked close to thier body and slower when thier arms are outstretched. A disc does not have its weight at the center as demonstrated in this video. A much better reprentation would be to change the weights on the outside and run the test.
@@woathepaladin5916 Its not a flawed test as you say. "RPM needs to be the same" that's skipping the first half of the test. It does not matter if you are taking a fraction of a second to impart spin or taking 2 seconds to impart spin. if the imparted force is the same then the weighted rim will not spin as fast PERIOD. This is scientifically known and is shown in very many experiments. Having both discs spin at the same rpm and then begin the test would be flawed as it is not a representation of equal energy imparted.
I understand where your coming from with having the weight being the same “ player strength “ , but what I heard from the video was you were testing if mvp overmold would spin longer, there fore your test is the wrong test, now if you wanted to look at if overmolds require more energy to spin at the same rpm as single mold then you have the right test. But what you showed in your test you could have done In your computer chair and spin with your arms out and then tuck them in, you speed up. I also agree that rpm of a disc greatly improves disc flight and distance, but the gyroscope effect of the disc is the main purpose behind the overmold rim weighting, as a torqued throw will stabilize its axis faster than a single mold disk the best way to think of this is if you throw a midrange very torqued off axis it will flip due to the wobble, the gyroscope effect helps negate wobble faster
I talk about both the weighted rim spinning for longer and the trade off for that being that the disc is harder to get up to speed.. my demonstration shows that yes weighted rim does spin for longer, but that comes at the cost of reduced rpm overall. My test was just right to show both the positive and negative aspects of a weighted rim. Arms out then arms in during spinning has nothing to do with disc flight as weight does not move back and forth on a disc, you are completely diverting from the facts shown here.
I appreciate your opinion on this. My only input would be the simple following statement. You replicate spin on your example, but we are not just spinning discs. To truly break it down, you need to add velocity to your equation and then gyroscopic stability. I'm not a math scientist lol Honestly, thanks for your input! Had to go thumbs down on this, you left out many variables.
I would love to see this setup used to test real disc. And a comparison of similar discs in relation to spin rate.
That would be amazing! I think that if I was using a real disc the difference between one disc and another would be less than the other variables introduced by my less than perfect rig. Trying to get the smoothest bearings and get everything balanced would be extremely difficult. To show the effect in an easy to see way I think this arrangement worked well. Someone with better craftsmanship could build a much improved rig and it would be cool to see that at even higher frame rates.
You don't really need to. As long as you have something that is set up like Doth's experiment, you can see the effect. Another classic is to take two cylinders of the same diameter, one hollow and one solid and roll them down a ramp. Which one wins? The solid one, as the one with the weight further from the center of rotation is HARDER TO GET SPINNING. Thus, as Doth mentioned in the video, the overmolds would be harder to throw straight vs the same weight of disc in a single shot disc bcs you just can't get as much spin on the overmold.
Very cool and probably explains why I only like lower speed stuff from mvp. The only thought I have is where the energy originates from in this experiment. With a throw your grabbing the rim and I would therefore assume the energy starts there instead of having energy applied directly to the center as in this experiment.
Their overstable stuff like the photon is great (but hard to throw unless you have a lot of power or throw forehands hard.)
I came here to comment exactly this. Do the experiment over with the "tug" around the rim instead of from the center. Might not make a difference, but would mimic the physics of a real world throw better.
I like the setup. Very good visual to demonstrate the concept of rotational (moment of) inertia; the object's resistance to a change in its state of rotation. Mass of the disc and batteries is the same, but placement of the batteries closer to or further from the axis of rotation dictate the disc's ability to speed up (or slow down) its rotation. It follows the rotational analogue of Newton's Second Law F=ma, which is T=IA where T is torque, I is rotational inertia, and A is angular (rotational) acceleration. Torque by definition is the (cross) product of the lever arm and Force. In your rig, the lever arm was consistent (the diameter of the wood block that the string wrapped around) and the force was constant (the drop weight) so that it pulled like a lawnmower starter to provide the twisting force. Again, great setup, demonstrates that with the same torque, large rotational inertia means low rotational acceleration and small rotational inertia means high rotational acceleration. But I think you jump to an erroneous conclusion by saying that the idea of pushing mass to the edge (increasing rotational inertia) is detrimental because it causes a lower spin rate for the same amount of force (torque). If that were true, drivers would push their mass to the flight plate and have hollow wings, when in fact all disc manufacturers make their highest speed discs with their masses pushed outwards to take advantage of gyro. MVP just draws attention to it with their high contrast overmolds. As you demonstrated, the larger rotational inertia disc spins for a longer period of time. In flight, this translates to a longer delay in the start of the fade (particularly on higher speed discs). Discs slow their rotations down during flight and for long distance flights with a lot of air time, the higher rotational inertia keeps it spinning and cutting through the air as it slows from the air resistance. Just as your bicycle is steady as long as you are moving, once the wheels slow down too much, you start to tip over. As your disc in flight slows its rotation, it is more susceptible to its wing shape catching the air and beginning to pitch up. When the front side starts to lift (for a RHBH throw or clockwise rotation as you look down from the sky), the disc will tilt to the left, and this is the fade. MVP's gyro claim is simply that having the higher rotational inertia, their discs will hold the low speed stability longer like a flywheel and delay the fade.
Yea what he said mvp rules!
Lesson of this story: Get slightly less massive overmold discs.
I personally have had a lot of success with MVP discs. I tend to have the most success when I get an MVP disc in a lighter weight. This goes to your point of acceleration, velocity and spin. For example I would get a 165 - 167 Gram MVP Volt when I would usually get a similar disc without an over-mold in 172 - 175 Grams. Takes less energy for me to accelerate and generate spin.
this was my first thougth, never trown a mvp, just started playing this year, and fist of, what weight would be the difference to achive the same spinn ratio. so this would be fun to see an experiment on as well
A few years later to comment, but I just noticed that both variations spins about as many revolutions in total, around 16.
I went to bed thinking about angular momentum, and then Doth posts a video on it. Kismet. great explanation as always with verifiable science demo.
Something to think about, and I'm not sure this was addressed. It may have been, and I didn't catch it. The difference here is that the distribution of the weight affects the rate at which the string is being used, with the weight on the end. So it might take 5 seconds for one string to fall away (core), and 6 for the other (edge). This affects the spin rate at the start. When you have a human throwing both discs, there isn't a 83% differential (or whatever) in the amount of spin at the start of the throw (the moment the disc is released from the hand). So the rate of spin initially is the same at the moment of release. Not so with the plate test. That's not to say the dynamics are equal past the moment of release, but I think the initial spin rate is likely the same. If you could duplicate this test and show the same rate of spin at the moment of release, it might make for some different dynamics. Maybe a smaller difference up front. Regardless, thank you for the time and effort (and likely expense) of doing this test. Definitely something to mull over.
Yes you are right that the string unwinding at different rates is not a direct representation of a throw where the disc is released from the hand. However with two discs being thrown with the same amount of energy applied to them we still see that the weighted rim spins slower.
The fact that angular momentum is harder to apply with a weighted rim persists regardless.
If I where to do a timed release with the ropes(making the rope for the weighted rim shorter so it would release at the same time) then we would see an even more exaggerated difference of spin speed. The weighted time in that case would be very slow spinning and would stop spinning before the core weighted disc.
So if we use a timed release instead of a release based on equal energy imparted then the outcome is that a person throwing will have even less spin than what I am showing and the disc will not stay spinning longer.
Your point I think is great, but it brought you to the wrong conclusion, the spin rate would not be closer to each other, but farther apart.
@@DothSavek Ah, got it. Thank you!
Out of curiosity, how do you explain the ridiculous distances attained by people throwing aerobie rings? I tend to think that the disc’s ability to snap out of my hand would be roughly the same no matter the weight distribution, because my elbow, wrist, and fingers are all moving the same speed, and an aerobie ring has all its weight at the “rim,” and those things go stupidly far, if you know what youre doing
Alternatively, couldnt you simply throw a less stable mold and get the same/better result since youd be taking advantage of the rotational physics while throwing a disc with intrinsically less fade?
With the right mold the gyro discs stay straight beyond belief. Axiom proxy. Axiom alias. MVP atom. But yes for drivers they will have their fade portion later in flight and a little more dramatic. Since that low speed energy is now pulling at the wing. They make so many great discs though. And streamline are single mold and are excellent.
The Crave is doing some pretty amazing things for me right now and it stays straight really well. I feel like there is something to that happening when you have the arm speed to throw the disc at a higher velocity than what its numbers are. A combination of the slower spin but balancing that out with a higher speed throw might be where the magic is.
So yes maybe rim weighted discs can stay straighter longer as long as you compare a lower speed rim weighted disc to a higher speed single shot?
Also Mint and TSA have some really awesome molds. Im throwing Pathfinder, Bobcat, Animus, and Mantra right now.
So the question I would have would be how fast does a single mold disc's rpms slow down vs an overmold.
Also another thought:
I assume that higher rpms will also give you more high speed turn and less low speed fade and lower rpms less hihg speed turn and more low speed fade. It looks like since you have faster spin at the start on a single mold you would get more high speed turn but a bit more over stable at the end of the spin rate slows to a slower rpm than the over mold. So if I am correct in my assumption, and assuming you throw 2 discs with identical flight characteristics but with one being a single mold and one being an over mold them you should get more turn and more fade out of a single mold disc and less turn and less fad out of an over mold.
I would be interested in your thoughts on my assumptions.
I don’t think is necessarily true. To my knowledge of physics, I think that the weighted rim increases the moment of inertia, which determine the discs resistance to change in rotation velocity. A gyro will stay stable in the air for longer than most discs, although it’s not life changing. Usually a player who can’t get enough spin on a disc will try to throw more overstable discs because they pick up spin faster and want to fall to the left for a RHBH shot. That’s why you see a lot of people chucking forehand flex shots with firebirds because they can’t get spin on the disc forehand. Otherwise a shot with little spin will turn over.
I would recommend understable gyro discs personally. I rip on my Axiom Mayhem.
"weighted rim increases the moment of inertia, which determine the discs resistance to change in rotation velocity." This is correct, it resists change in both speeding up and slowing down. Harder to speed up spin, and harder to slow down spin. That is exactly what my demonstration shows.
I have really been enjoying Craves recently myself. Crave, Proxy, and Envy are probably my favorites.
@@DothSavek I might be wrong but here is what I think. When you throw a disc, it leave your hand with a initial rotational velocity. Unless you're throwing a overstable disc the rotational velocity will not increase after it leaves your hand. Does that make sense? The thrower is responsible for getting the disc up to speed not the disc.
yes, just like the red rope being pulled by a weight is imparting initial rotational velocity. Once the rope lets go the rotation does not increase anymore, just as once a disc leaves the hand it does not increase rotational velocity any more.
Everyone I've recommended the Insanity to loved it, easy distance. If you can find one in the prism prototype plastic I can't recommend it enough it has a fantastic flight path and I swear that thing is indestructible. My plasma Fireball has great grip in the cold wet Maine winter rounds. I also feel the overmold tends to resist damage better. I grabbed a Mayhem for fun since I rarely throw high speed discs and have been suprised how far it goes for me. Might make it into my permanent warm weather bag, as most courses in the winter here don't allow for big run ups so I'm frequently throwing my Buzzz, Eagles and Leopard 3s from a stand still until spring.
This is from the MVP website:
"Increasing a disc’s moment of inertia will increase its angular momentum" &
"Increased angular momentum of a disc in flight will allow the disc to stay on its rotational axis for a longer period of time" (Think of a spinning top)
Angular momentum = Moment of Inertia x Angular velocity.
What it should say is Increased angular momentum, WHILE MAINTAINING THE SAME ANGULAR VELOCITY, of a disc in flight will allow the disc to stay on its rotational axis for a longer period of time.
Staying on its rotational axis longer doesn't necessarily result in long flight.
Longer flight requires higher release velocity + higher angular velocity.
However, raising the MOI for the same amount of applied torque will result in a slower angular velocity. Resulting in about the same angular momentum. Meaning the gyroscopic effect will be about the same.
Because of the higher MOI, you have to put more torque in to the spin, to achieve the same angular velocity, in order to realize the advantage of moving more weight to the rim. I suppose some pros can do this.
Maybe a better demonstration would be to get several tops of various diameters. Spin them at the same angular velocity. Witness how long each one stays up. In my opinion, Your demo exaggerates the difference between a single mold disc and a over mold. There's not that huge of a difference.
All golf discs have gyroscopic effect working for them. Otherwise they would not fly straight.
Wobble. An issue of learning how to throw forearms is wobble.
Putting more spin on the disc makes it more stable, because of the gyroscopic effect, and the wobble goes away..
After watching your video I got my leopard out, which has the same flight numbers as the relay, and started comparing them. However, they are not a perfect match.
1. They have different rim configurations (see pdga disc specs.)
2. The leopard weighs about 10 grams more.
Also, the leopard is significantly more domey which, I believe, gives it more lift.
But, the leopard has similar weight distribution as the relay.
I enjoyed the demo, but I wonder if you get the same result, if you were pulling from the outer rim, instead of from the center. Regardless, I think with MVP disc selection is very important. Not just with picking a molds stability, but with the weights also. I think most people trying MVP for the 1st time automatically go with max weight because that's what they're use to doing with other brands. Thing is, with the extra weight in the outermold it's more difficult to get them up to speed, which is exactly what you experienced (crashing hard), and what was supported by your demo. I see this as a feature, where a lighter weight or slower disc should be selected. Moving the weight to the rim, is like adding more weight and stability to the disc. So perhaps a 175 gram mold from MVP is the equivalent to 190 grams from another company, as far as spin rate is concerned. On the other end, lighter discs have potential to fly farther, but are more affected by the wind. There are trade offs.
Lots of good comments in there Keith. The difference of putting the string on the rim vs the core would still show the same result. There are similar tests done out there regarding angular moment and moment of inertia, using a solid cylinder vs a hollow cylinder of the same diameter and rolling both down a ramp(which simulates wrapping string on the outer edge) and the results are the same.
@@DothSavek I was just thinking about what's missing here. It's one very crucial element: wind. A flying spinning disc with more mass in it's center would be harder to control. Stability is missing. We know why pros throw heavier discs. It's because it gives them better control in the wind. More stability = more control in the wind. Moving weight to the rim, adds more flight stability. Perhaps too much stability for weaker arms. Seems like an obvious omission now. You should re-visit this.
Thanks for the demo & explanation I am just getting into disc golf and love the physics. I initially had, I think, some of the same questions about timed release as some of the other comments. I know the physics says the the weighted rim should spin longer but because the strings did not stop imparting force at the same time it was hard for me to tell how long each plate spun for after all the energy was finished being applied. I think it would be great if you overlayed a timer that showed how long the plate spun for after the force was applied. That way you don't have to cut strings to time a release and don't have to stagger start the spinning to get the strings to finish imparting their energy at the same time. So while equal energy was applied to both plates then you would measure how long the plate spins for from the time the string comes off until the plate stops spinning.
I think from watching the video a few times that it will still show that the rim weighted plate spun longer but I think it would solve some of the questions about timed release and equal energy imparted and give a real clear time of difference in spin time.
Man I'm not sure about the variables. I'd think that if you can generate enough spin in general then the more weight on the rim you can handle. MVP represents the extreme end of that spectrum. So technically, it just takes a ton of spin to use them correctly, mainly top pros most likely. The arguments you are using against MVP, are the same arguments against a newbie throwing high speed drivers where the weight is more in the rim causing them to fade too hard at the end. As a player progresses, those high speed big rim discs fly straighter. Thoughts?
Yea I hear you Rusty. Just showing off what can be easily demonstrated as I think its mostly overlooked when folks talk about the difference between a double shot and a single shot disc. It would be really cool to be able to measure and put a number on the spin achieved by top pros.
That’s probably why I’ve never liked MVP. For me the plastic feels like I can’t get a grip it’s too slick and the disc just never do anything that would stand out always mediocre for me.
@@DothSavek Before Ezra Aderhold signed with discraft he did a video of several companies destroyer-like driver and did lots of throws on different lines. MVP was middle of the pack every time. That's all I needed to see, to see that their claims were bunk. A dude who can crush 550+ consistently isn't getting more distance out of an MVP, then my noodle arm sure as hell isn't going to either. That said I do like their mids.
@@Greldek a photon is probably not the best choice to compare to a destroyer. Mvp has farther flying discs than the photon. My photons often fly like firebirds. That said ive kind of given up on the mvp distance drivers because 11 speeds fly great for me. If i could overpower nukes, id look into mvp again. The envy and crave are really great discs id recommend for everyone.
@@DothSavek interestingly enough, Conrad in his what’s in the bag said he throws a lot of fairway drivers.
This checks out - been hucking MVP since they only had putters and mids, and on average you need to get that SNAP in for them to fly good, otherwise they just fall out of the sky.
I wonder what effect the overmold has on in-flight stability though, and resistance to torque. In my experience understable MVP doesn't crash and burn like most others, they seem to drift more than turn.
I also experience some difference between flat overmold discs and flat normal discs. IDK if there's a good reason behind this.
Great idea for a video! So interesting
Cool demo Doth! ... I used to throw MVP strictly ... I like some of them, love some of them ...etc ... my absolute longest throws have NOT come from MVP discs though ... :) Cheers!
They make some great stuff for sure! I want to throw them just for their great art and stamps if nothing else! Will be way psyched if they sign Conrad.
@@DothSavek Hadn't heard about Conrad ... that would be cool!
Indeed, it was very cool.
But does your throw has less spin from the beginning because its an overmold? Wouldn't your throw start with the same spin regardless of overmold or not, but overmold will keep than spin for longer? The snap and movement dont have anything to do with the disc, nothing but your self have to "drag" the spin into action.
Awesome man. I love it. You say everyone is trying to get more spin. I wonder if you could elaborate on what specific techniques actual generate more spin? Possibly even invite high level pros to discuss such things. I know you haven't presented yourself as someone who does a ton of form critique but your analytical nature would seem to make you the perfect candidate to begin to really discuss "proper" form as this sport is just now beginning to dial in consistent form. A decade or two ago, even at the highest level you saw more variation in technique from player to player. Recently, especially in young players, it seems that the science of technique is starting to be more consistently dialed in in the way that a golf swing or basketball free throw has been. Obviously there is still a lot of variation, but less than in recent years to my mind. Or....if you don't care to get into technique side of things just keep doing what you're doing. I love it.
Thanks Justin, yea I have been working on improving my abilities to coach and offer form advice. I have a little series going of form reviews on my stream vods if you are curious about it. I have reviewed 13 peoples form on my streams so far. It is helping to chalange me to be better at understanding form.
@@DothSavek Sweet. Thanks.
@@DothSavek Ha. I just watch a bunch of the first form review video you did. Of course you were already working on what I was requesting. So far, as with the other videos of yours I've watched, I really appreciate your approach and I'm sure you'll get better and better at it. I'll definitely watch the rest. Thanks again.
Awesome! Thanks for the support, glad you are digging this stuff
Wouldn’t having more spin make it want to fade harder, but also make it more (gyroscopically) stable?
In any case, the weight in the edge is that much and it may even out the distance gains because of the slower spin rates yet longer spin time
more spin makes the disc stay straighter, not fade or turn.
Can u do the same video but have the weight lopsided? Think epic disc. To see if the offset weight will generate more spin?
To properly introduce wobble would require a completely different bearing that would be far more complicated. If you want to try and can think of a way to build it then please go ahead and let us know the results!
I've kind of thought something like this is true (more weight at edge means harder to getting spinning a lot, but will keep spinning for longer), but it's nice to see it demonstrated. I mean, it is basically the same thing as going from a midrange to a distance driver. What I'm still unsure of are the practical consequences. Does this mean that all their overmolds fly like one category faster? Like do their kids feel like fairways? Not exactly sure. And as you sort of mention, if most of their discs are low power beefy, then controlling fade for overmolds would be something new to learn and get used to as compared to single shot. Ultimately I stick to single shots (minus my Nova) because I just don't have much power or snap, and they just fly too differently than single shots than I'm willing to get used to, but I can see how high power/snap players could love overmolds company discs
Yea I can't responsibly comment as to practical consequences. I just wanted to show its not a magic bullet. I love some MVP and Axiom but I don't think there is any big advantage to over mold as some claim
Could this mean that mvp discs could be better for forehand throws? Less likely to turn over but fly longer?
I just wonder if the differing spin rates require a method that rotates the disc at its axis like what's shown in this video. When throwing a disc, body and arm motion isn't slowed or affected at all by the weight distribution in the disc because it's not rotating the disc. the spin all happens upon release
The spin happens because of the energy imparted on the disc by the person throwing. A disc with more weight on the rim that receives the same amount of energy imparted will rotate more slowly compared to a disc with more weight in the core.
@@DothSavek You know, it does make sense what you're saying. Another example are ice skaters who spin very fast with their arms close to their bodies or relatively more slowly when they have their arms extended
can you spin lighter discs faster?
it would be interesting to know exactly how much weight distribution change happens with an overmolded disc vs a single shot disc. In other words, if you take the same disc how many grams of weight are moved to the rim from the middle of the disc. I would imagine that you would be able to see the weight distribution in 3D CAD between one and the other but the manufacturers aren't letting us see that. In order for the demonstration above to represent what is actually going on, the amount of weight moved from inner to outer would have to be correct. On another note, I've noticed that some of the MVP discs seem to have a very predictable flight. I wonder now, after seeing this, if that has to do with a slower spin rate at release which has less effect on the high speed turn than a disc that is spinning faster. For example, I've been experimenting with some lightweight but very stable high speed discs. With the extra velocity at release, they behave less stable then the same disc in normal weight. However, I've not put any in my bag for good because I find them to be much less predictable with regard to high speed turn and low speed fade.
Yea Tony, if figured a way to get accurate measurements for weight distribution we would be well on our way to some better demonstrations. Another huge thing would be to get some real numbers for rpm at release for a 45mph thrower vs a 70mph throw and many examples in between(I know 2 people throwing at 50mph will have different amounts of spin imparted) to build a known spectrum of rpm that can then be reproduced. The remaining battles then for a test rig are the drag on the central bearing and lack of air resistance.
All cool stuff to think about for sure.
I have heard folks refer to some data of weight distribution data that was gathered by someone cutting up a disc. I'm trying to track down that info now. I am having trouble thinking of a way to get good data myself by cutting and weighing.
throwingplastic.com/overmold-vs-single-mold/
@@DothSavek interesting read. Thanks!
As a former collegiate thrower, discus and hammer mostly, so much of the flight mechanics for discs seems SO behind the flight analysis and knowledge for other throwing sports. I was a thrower in the 90s and just now manufactures are going for more rim weight? Pros and cons to it. Same as with a discus. Most people do better without the over edge weight. It is hit or big miss. The center mass has a larger margin of error and allows most to perform better than a “high end, rim weighted disc”.
Dude - this is why you have the best disc content on youtube!
Makes sense that it would be harder to get up to full spin speed. I throw an undertaker for most drives and even at similar weights the tesla is just much beefier. Same with my 165g Photon, it seems a lot faster than it should be. I can throw the hell out of my max weight Servo though. Its only a 6.5 speed but flys farther than either the tesla or photon. The gyro extra beef is why i went with the Deflector for my meat hook mid. Any anyhyzer angle or power and it will always not turn over.
Yea, I have stepped all the way down to a Crave to get controllable straight finishes. Where with a single shot I can get 12 speed destroyers to have a similarly straight finish.
would love to see this experiment done with some mvp discs and an eqevalent made traditional way. as in the HEX and BUZZZ same weight as well. so they are so equal as possible. use a sharpy and mark the edge so you can slow down it to see the difference in spinn speeed. as this shows the concept sure, one disc two batteries and some tape. sure proof of concept.
as first qusetion i get. is that the weight is more evenly spaced at the center of the disc becuse it's lass mass seperating the two batteris and then at the edge, its a lot of relastate between the two battaries, so the energy then get pushed in to two points rather then a disc.
if this makes sense.
ser yes it would take more energy to get the spinn, as there is a greater distance for the mass to travle, hens the speed of the disc is differnt then if it was cast in one mold and evenly distribute weight, if this makes sense. but it would be more stable. then a traditional made disc.
but what would happen if you used or would it be any differce between this experiment, if it where done with am axiom hex and the buzzz or any other 5 5 -1 1 disc. or any other. and se where the weight for equal spill lies.
lets assume that hex and a buzzz at 175g gives this result, but a hex at 165g (if they make one that is) and a buzzz at 183g have the same spinn speed. then this would actually be intersting to find out.
this is just guessing on my part. but these where my thouths i got from watching your viedo.
I have dyslexia so hope i made meg self understood.
kinda want ot get some mvp discs my self. just started this year but was drawn to the mvp disc, right away. don't know why, they just or the one I got to hold, just felt right, was that gyro rim that feelt rigth to me. never trown one, just picked it up in the store and then the guy working there came over and how long have you playd. my avnser, never and then i got a midrage, think it was that mako3 or something like that, ended up getting the buzzz as my nephew loves that disc and has one in the z line and i got the esp.
but i have ordred some disc from mvp, as i cant shake that feeling those disc had in my hand
Maybe this is why I find all MVP discs to be slightly more stable than the numbers rate them as. I don't have a big arm, or great technique, and when I throw overmolds, for me they seems to be more OS than usual. I also notice when I throw like a Wave, imo, the disc is spinning slower in the air, which your video is kinda proving my thought could be correct. The wave still launches, but it very well could be spinning slower than say a wraith or Hades is. This could explain why I enjoy throwing their FDs, mids and putters, but then I kind of top out around 7-8 speed with overmold discs. Great video, Doth!
This was fascinating. Thanks bud!
Dr. Doth Savek DGPhD. I love your science content!
Thanks Aegir! I have a much more sophisticated test in the works. lots of electronic parts being delivered later today!!
Love the content, but I'm not sold on this experiment. This does not translate to real world application IMO. Again, I appreciate it, but I think you set up this experiment to confirm your predetermined conclusion. Regardless, it is interesting and opens the discussion. Thanks again for conceptualizing this and sharing, but I'm not sold on your conclusions.
You provided no counter argument tho
Do we know the percentage difference in weight distribution for MVP Discs? In addition to what you stated I wonder how big of a difference there is.
I completely agree with your experiment and when the conversation comes up I'll be forwarding people to the video.
In a reply to another comment on this video I linked a test where discs where cut apart and weighed. I think it was around 5% more weight near the esge of the rim
@@DothSavek it would be cool then, if you made the experiment with the weights near the edge being 5% heavier than the centered ones, just to see how big of a difference it would make. Super nice content on your channel btw :)
Thanks Doth! As always, you bring some clear thinking to disc golf. Anyone interested in this topic should also check out our man Oscar Fehlberg's inquiry into angular momentum (by creating a steel rimmed disc) ruclips.net/video/9PA_knbLAnY/видео.html . He comes at this from a different angle, but reaches a similar conclusion.
angulat is the best!!
I see what you're going for here but there are a lot of variables you skipped here. Like we don't know if any of this data scales up in a linear way or if it's exponential. Or say if there is a spin rate on the disc where you see diminishing returns regarding glide. Or WHEN that spin is most important. MVP discs crash hard because of their tendency to have flat flight plates. A flat disc (generally) will flip up AND fade a little more than it's domey counterpart. This experiment you've set up only demonstrates one variable. I think this is going to be really misleading to most people, which is a bummer because clearly you have good intentions. You're just missing literally all of the rest of the physics involved in a disc's flight.
Very misleading as you watch the red string, acceleration didn’t stop at the same time, you need to have equal rpm at release to really show of the overmold spins longer, which isn’t backed by physics, just as figure skaters tuck in arms to save on radial momentum, a disc will work the same, the benefit to an overmold rim where the weight is concentrated on the rim is that it will very quickly correct its axis to the angular momentum.
"acceleration didn't stop at the same time" that is one of the major points here, weight outside=harder/takes longer to get spinning.
"you need to have equal rpm at release to show off the overmold spins longer..." The whole point of the demonstration is to show that with the same energy imparted(same person throwing both discs) the rim weighted disc will not spin as fast when it leaves their hand.
Agree. The RPM needs to be the same then check the results. I also disagree with the assumption that a disc needs "time" to get up to full rpm, it happens quite quickly. I appreciate the work, but Its a flawed test.
Why not just take two discs of equal weight and in the test.
The distribution of weight with his batteries is very poor also. We all know things spin faster, like a figure skater doing a spin goes faster with thier arms tucked close to thier body and slower when thier arms are outstretched.
A disc does not have its weight at the center as demonstrated in this video.
A much better reprentation would be to change the weights on the outside and run the test.
@@woathepaladin5916 Its not a flawed test as you say. "RPM needs to be the same" that's skipping the first half of the test. It does not matter if you are taking a fraction of a second to impart spin or taking 2 seconds to impart spin. if the imparted force is the same then the weighted rim will not spin as fast PERIOD. This is scientifically known and is shown in very many experiments.
Having both discs spin at the same rpm and then begin the test would be flawed as it is not a representation of equal energy imparted.
I understand where your coming from with having the weight being the same “ player strength “ , but what I heard from the video was you were testing if mvp overmold would spin longer, there fore your test is the wrong test, now if you wanted to look at if overmolds require more energy to spin at the same rpm as single mold then you have the right test. But what you showed in your test you could have done In your computer chair and spin with your arms out and then tuck them in, you speed up. I also agree that rpm of a disc greatly improves disc flight and distance, but the gyroscope effect of the disc is the main purpose behind the overmold rim weighting, as a torqued throw will stabilize its axis faster than a single mold disk the best way to think of this is if you throw a midrange very torqued off axis it will flip due to the wobble, the gyroscope effect helps negate wobble faster
I talk about both the weighted rim spinning for longer and the trade off for that being that the disc is harder to get up to speed.. my demonstration shows that yes weighted rim does spin for longer, but that comes at the cost of reduced rpm overall. My test was just right to show both the positive and negative aspects of a weighted rim.
Arms out then arms in during spinning has nothing to do with disc flight as weight does not move back and forth on a disc, you are completely diverting from the facts shown here.
Sorry but this isn’t an accurate representation. I can vouch for fission plastic by mvp definitely giving more forward pushing momentum.
I appreciate your opinion on this.
My only input would be the simple following statement.
You replicate spin on your example, but we are not just spinning discs.
To truly break it down, you need to add velocity to your equation and then gyroscopic stability. I'm not a math scientist lol
Honestly, thanks for your input!
Had to go thumbs down on this, you left out many variables.
Stick to your Bag Reviews.
Don't like this? Good stuff right here
Yeah Doth, this is 2020. People don't want to hear about science.
All that science made DAWIII's head hurt.