What if the Vinland Colony Survived? | Alternate History
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2024
- In this video we explore a world where the Norse colony in North America, Vinland, survived and kickstarted the European colonization of the Americas, making Denmark-Norway and later Scandinavia the first colonial power in the Americas, rather than Spain.
-Disappears for a month
-Randomly posts some AI generated video
-Doesn't elaborate
-Comes back after another 3 months
-Posts another Vinland video
-Doesn't elaborate (again)
-Leaves
He is just too based to explain.
What is there to explain?
His IQ is too high for us to understand his art.
@@Sebbir exactly, creators decided themself when and if to upload anything, dosent owe anyone any explaination, its simply not part of the "social contract" involved here
damn bro so original totally hasnt been copied and pasted
Alternate title: "What if Thorfinn had no enemies since season 1"
THE SHOW WOULD FLOP SO HARD YOU WOULDNT EVEN NOTICE WRITER KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING.
@@sentialt-p8x It wouldn't flop at all, Vinland Saga only got better as it went
@@jonasw3945 to be honest i miss the fighting Thorfin did tho
@@jonasw3945 the reason many of us got sucked into it, and the reason why Thorfinn's "pasifism" is so intresting to watch, is exactly becouse of how a violent past he got, allmost everyone loves a good underdog/redemption arch, and Thorfinn got both of them becouse of the past season.
knowledge without context is worth nothing, and we got both now in season 2
King Sweyn would have lost his conquest of England. Since albeit unbeknown to him, he wouldn't have a dagger wielding edgelord 1v1 the entire country for him
Question: would Britain in this scenario even emerge? France and Scotland had an alliance, if Scandinavia was to ally France and wished to reign in England, might they also ally Scotland, preventing the Scottish Economy being strangled in the same way and allowing them to play off England and France more effectively than in real life.
In my view, the following would happen:
- Caithness and Sutherland would still be returned to Scotland as in real life. Norway would not have been much richer than irl at this stage and so the counties would probably still have been returned. However
- Norway would keep Orkney and Shetland, these weren't given to Scotland until much later, and since Vinland is a thing the North Sea trade route would remain important, therefore there is no way Norway would offer the islands as a dowry to Scotland.
However
- by the time colonialism was in full swing, Scotland would be closely connected to this North Sea trade route, and would likely seek to establish colonies of its own at the same time as England. Initially, Scandinavia would not wish to allow Scotland to gain access to the Americas, but this would change as soon as England becomes Scandinavia's main rival
3. Scotland would become essentially a second Netherlands of this world, establishing a moderately sized Empire under the wing of France and Scandinavia. Perhaps Scotland would focus on colonising Africa whilst everyone else focuses on America?
- I don't see Scotland becoming much richer than it did in real life, the main difference would be that it would do so on its own steam rather than as part of the British sphere.
VIKINGS IN AMERICA IS FAKE NEWS
As a Scot I would choose anything than being apart of England.
Britian was formed due to the Scotish monarch getting a personal union with England. For Britian to not form you have to remove the Scottish monarchy from the line of succession of the English throne. They were in the line of succession due to a marriage alliance which was the result of the English trying to stop Scottish border raids.
A potentially more powerful Scotland would only increase the chances the English would seek a marriage alliance to end border conflicts.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 potentially, but would the Scots see any benefit in obliging, especially when they have ample marriage alliance possibilities with France and Scandinavia?
Furthermore, whilst there was a personal union, the actual act of union was far from inevitable without the failure of Scotland's colonial efforts which i don't see happening in this scenario. Scotland would have far more agency here, and even if a personal union happened as in real life, I don't think that an actual union would be very likely before nationalism becomes a thing (after which either country has the option of just becoming a Republic if the monarchy makes the wrong moves.)
@@ScottishProductionsYT I am also Scottish lol I understand your pain. But genuinely, in this scenario I think Scotland would have more agency ergo I doubt gb would form.
POV: You watch Vinland saga
POV: You watch Vinland saga, but you already knew about this before watching Vinland saga.
While the plagues in North America weakened the tribes which called it home, this happened a century or two before the major colonial push by the USA into the interior. As long as a major North American settler colony gains independence, perhaps Vinland in this timeline, I see this expansion towards the interior as partly inevitable. I am a bit more unsure about the Aztec and Incan civilisations if the plague had arrived to them earlier, though, I would not be surprised if the colonisers managed to conquer them in the end, much like Africa and Asia.
VIKINGS IN AMERICA CONTINENT IS BIG FAKE NEWS,NOT EXISTED
The Aztecs literally almost won from Cortes, the only hardship was the large amount of native armies that sided with Cortes his 200 men with rifles. However in Tenochtitlan the smallpox and other diseases would grow rampant due to the siege killing many defenders. If that hadn't happened I bet Cortes would have lost HARD, after that the Aztec empire would have had time to trade with europeans like the Chinese and Japanese did, or even the African kingdoms did that.
@@willemvanoranje5724 Would they have maybe survived the initial attack by the Spanish? Yeah, they could have. Maybe as well as India, Indonesia or Africa. Oh wait, those place all ended up conquered by the Europeans...
I am not saying that they couldn't have survived, just that I do not find it plausible. Also, I am pretty sure almost beating 200 men with terrible rifles isn't the flex you think it is.
@@LeDoctorBones Hey maybe actually read what I said... I said giant armies of rival states filled with natives, added with Cortes and his own small stolen army, (he wasn't allowed to do the mission from the Spanish crown at ALL)
And yes India and Africa ended up conquered, but did their cultures and people get run into extinction and their religions and cultures eradicated? NO, even then Thailand, Ethiopia, Iran all got out unscathed without direct european rule over them. This could mean the same for atleast a few native states as well, certainly ones that would have handled the situation wisely, just look at Japan.
So stop trying to nitpick my comment up into making it appear laughable...
@@willemvanoranje5724 When have I ever said the aztec culture would be run into extinction. I have since my first comment said it would probably be like Asia and Africa. It is, however, unlikely that it doesn't get conquered since it is too close to Europe. Ethiopia was occupied for ~5years and only survived because of WW2, Iran's south was controlled by the British and the whole country occupied during WW2. Unscathed is a big claim in that context. And this is completely ignoring that even before plague killed a lot of Native Americans, the population was already low. Could their culture have survived better than nowadays - Definitely. Could they have survived? No.
"What if Rome never fell" part 3💪💪💪💪
We would still dont have even industrialization
@@svyatoslav4289 Bro... ROME WAS NEAR INDUSTRIALISATION BEFORE ITS FALL
@@inzyniertv9305 no, it was there 400 hundred years befor it fall. Its more than entirety of USA
That's basically just Italy, the outcome.
It would have fallen later lol
I love that instead of trying to draw the HRE borders, you just pasted a map over it!
you could've easily made this into an hour long video and id still watch all of it, great content
Danemark would replace France's role in the mississipi and would definetly have sailed trough it centuries before most of europe, like imagine a great viking conqueror exploring north america and its cultures like marco polo and Ibn Battuta. Also the fact that theres no USA is also pretty world changing
The usa only started to influence the world in the 20th and 21st centuries, so that’s when you’ll see the biggest shift
The Vinland Colony was a Norwegian colony
@@Emilsigland South africa was a dutch colony
@@KameroonEmperor Vinland isnt south africa bruhhh🤣
@@Emilsigland bro🤦♂
This needs an update on the Americas and how this would change the colonisation of Asia and Africa.
I really like this scenario but here’s a couple things I would change:
-Diseases would not be spread as easily throughout America as they had in our timeline because Vinland was already sparsely populated and hard for plagues to spread, unlike the densely populated islands and cities like Tenochtitlan that Cortes conquered.
-Because of this, I still think it is likely that the Incans don’t experience a plague earlier, and may fall similar to our timeline creating essentially the same Latin American identity.
-I really think you’re understating how important the horse is for natives, specifically the Great Plains nomads like the Dakota Sioux and others. You kind of skipped over the period in between Vinland and the rest of the European powers and I think that these peoples would be extremely important since they are essentially the same thing as nomadic horsemen from Central Asia and could basically parallel the mongols.
-The natives already had sophisticated agriculture and cities in our world, but I think adding more livestock, specifically beasts of burden would give the natives in the American south a head start in terms of agriculture, we could probably see Cahokia become a really big city because they would be able to feed lots of people, and unlike the Incans I think they would probably experience plague earlier and develop immunity. This means that the American south would be a lot more capable of resisting European occupation or at least develop an extremely distinct identity.
Vinland's Coat of Arms - Plowing the land
Motto: We have no enemies
OMGGG LOVE THIS SO MUCHH!!! not to mention scandinavian/nordic stuff is always so cool to me, I always loved how you made the maps look
I love viking America ideas. I also imagine that even if the norse still didn't fully link Europe and the Americas that woukd still have an astonishing impact if they stayed long enough or had enough influence on the local native population to pass on metallurgy, live stock, sailing, or enough genetic mixture to give some immunity to old world diseases.
If it survived, we would all have NO ENEMIES!
Dem kids would have been beautiful
Epic video as always!
I don't think a longer warm period was necessary for this scenario. Instead if they Vinland colony had held on and became permanent I think the Greenland colony would have moved to Vinland when the cold period hit. This would have added a few thousand more people to the small colony. With Greenland vacated the colony would probably be cut off from Europe for awhile. The influx of people would incentivize expansion and the cooling weather would encourage them to spread southward.
I agree
Also the Aztec empire was always going to collapse the Aztecs were hated by those they conquered and it was the alliances with Aztec subjects that helped the Spanish defeat them, but i think a European power would most definitely take advantage of the power vacuum
True!
yeah it would def be colonized. My best guess would be by France since in this world they'd have to concentrate their power more southwards around the gulf of mexico since their enourmous network of trade around the mississipi would be mostly held by the danes. That's assuming spain doesnt still "discover the americas" tought, cause its still probable vinland is seen as just another island like greenland or iceland
@@KameroonEmperor Why would anyone want to colonise them though? Even Spain had no interest until Cortes (against the Crown's wishes) went ahead and made it a fait accompli.
They weren't really hated any more than any other overlord would've been, for most of Spain's war against the Aztecs they only had two allies, one of which was already at war with the Aztecs before the Spanish even arrived. The rest of the rebels only joined Spain once it became glaringly obvious they had the upper hand, and even then they're allegiance was dubious.
It was pure opportunism, they could see who the new to dog was going to be and they wanted to make sure they were in the pack. They couldn't've cared less about Aztec sacrifices, they themselves sacrificed just as much just on a smaller scale.
@@Threezi04 Glory and gold, same as in OTL, but Good point. it all depends on how Europe interacts with this new world
What If the planet Venus was habitable
I love your videos so much, this just made my day, thank you
What if China permanently collapsed during the Three Kingdoms Period and never reunited? What affect would it have throughout Asia and Europe? What would culture and language be like in the Europe-like region of China?
You would have to divide China into Nation states and create new cultures to make this scenario. It would represent an insane amount of work. Like worldbuilding level of detail.
@@arthurbriand2175 Which would be awesome to see
@@TheHatersarebad This in fact almost happened after the fall of the Western Jin dynasty and the collapse of the Tang dynasty.
For the first part; as the court of the Jin fled southwards, Northern China was settled by numerous Central Asian tribes who carved out their own states. Occasionally the North would reunite (as happened with the Northern Wei dynasty), though division was more of the norm. Also, the North and South would try to reconquer the other, but both would fail to do so for centuries until the Sui dynasty of Northern China came along (though the success of the Sui to reunite China was more due to the blunder of the emperor of the Chen dynasty of Southern China, so reunification of China by the Sui was not an inevitability).
As for the second part, Northern China also split up into multiple states with the occasional bouts of unity (as what happened above). The difference here is that after the fall of the Tang, Southern China also split into multiple states. And unlike the North, no state could ever reunite the South (though the Southern Tang dynasty did come close to doing so) due to the existence of coalitions of the Southern states against anybody who would try to unite the South.
So, if the Wei/Jin dynasty succumbed to the Central Asian nomads before they could conquer the other two states, it is possible that China would never reunite. This is because at the time, the population of both Shu and Wu combined is still smaller than that of Wei/Jin, and the former two doesn't always see each other eye to eye. So neither would have been able to reconquer the North (Shu under Zhuge Liang tried to do so multiple times and they failed because they couldn't afford to lose too many soldiers). Wu themselves might eventually splinter into multiple states, as the Wu government is infamous for being the most corrupt of the three.
- Northern China would have much more Central Asian influence on its culture and military. It's possible that Northern China could become like Persia/Iran and would often be conquered by Central Asian tribes while also sinicizing them or go into the Tang dynasty route of co-opting the Central Asian military tactics and became a powerhouse that would occasionally subjugate the tribes around Mongolia and Manchuria.
Northern Chinese culture in this would be much more militaristic and authoritarian. In this timeline, "Han" would be synonymous with Northern Chinese.
- Korea might preserve more elements of it's own culture, still adopted some aspects of Chinese (or in this case, Northern Chinese culture), or even adopt some Central Asian culture. They could even try to to subjugate the tribes around Manchuria, just like what the Goguryeo and the Goryeo did.
- Central Asian influence on the neighboring regions would be stronger as Northern China would be an additional base of power for them. The Yuan dynasty might even still hold on to power in Northern China and thus, the Mongols would still be a powerful force for a longer time (at least until the Northern Chinese or the Manchus overthrew them)
- Southern China in this time would be a lot more similar to Europe as there might be more states existing at the same. Aesthetically, the cultures of the Southern Chinese would be similar to Vietnamese as they would receive less influence from the Northern dynasties (while they would still have immigrants from the North who are trying to escape the chaos around the Yellow River Valley)
Maritime trade in Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean would be their main focus. Thus their culture would be much more focused on commerce and seafaring. It's not impossible that the Southern Chinese might set up trading companies similar to what the Europeans have (the Song dynasty had already seen the appearance of stock trading) and st up trading post in Southeast Asia, India, the Middle East, East Africa, and perhaps South and West Africa.
When the Europeans have started to colonize the Americas, the Southern Chinese might instead focus their attention on colonizing Southeast Asia, Australia, and the small islands of the Pacific and Indian Oceans.
Southern China might also develop much more rapidly in this timeline (at least militarily) and use much more creative use of gunpowder, especially because there's always a looming threat of Northern China conquering them
- Japanese history might not change a lot initially (besides the Japanese adopting both Northern and Southern Chinese cultures which might become more divergent in this timeline). But when Hideyoshi would attempt to conquer Korea and (Northern) China, the Southern Chinese might help him in the conquest to weaken the North. The Toyotomi might even receive help from the South during the civil war against the Tokugawa
I wish this really happened and the US never formed, god bless
Why?
@@blugaledoh2669 us being a dominant block in the west is not really great, i wish they werent.
@@Illuminat-ve5ue the major reason why US became dominant in the west is because Europe keep fighting with each other. If it wasn’t for the two world war, US would not have become as dominant as they are not.
Also, not great for who exactly?
Yeah!!! New vid!!! Can you do what if France and Germany (HRE, Prussia or Austria or a proto unifed germany) united together to conquer and create a European Federation, pls
This is an interesting mysterious land. Such a kingdom covering this amount of space certainly changes things
great scenario, turns on my last my brain cells
Glad to see you post a new video!
1:03
That's highly debatable, and depends on your interpretation of the available evidence.
First of all we know that they *did* cross open waters in those vessels.
But another factor is that some people thinks that the best approach to the data is to essentially take the shape of the remains of the viking ships (make copies) and try to put them together as is and then sail them and that this somehow gives a good representation of the performance of viking ships.
(Some of those copies sunk...)
Others thinks that you should take into account the building techniques found in the region later where the wood was put under tension during the building process leading to completely different shapes of the ships and different properties.
But it's kind of hard to actually *prove* that any of those shapes where used...
Also, remember that the explorers intentionally trying to go to the middle of nowhere probably didn't go out using the *longships*, those where vessels of war.
Instead if you're going to go out into rough seas you'd *probably* use a knarr, a shorter, rounder, deeper draft vessel that can handle worse weather then a longship but is a bit harder to row.
Of course people might use a longship and then be blown of course, that's absolutely possible.
But yeah, it's just not as simple as saying "viking ships couldn't sail in open waters".
At s minimum it's a truth with modification and it's possibly not true at all...
Epic 👍
The scenario ignores the predominant wind patterns on the Atlantic Ocean. It had a reason why all Europeans sailing ships went South, passed the Canary Islands and than arrived in the Caribbean, while taking the Northern route back back home ... sailing along the American East coast and than turning right at the hight of New England. In the South, close to the Equator the wind blows from the East, while in the North the wind blows from the West, taking you back to Europe easily.
All colonization, Spanish, French, English, Dutch, even Danish and Swedish started in the Caribbean, since it is the first place to get to when your means of transportation are sailing ships. And the many tiny islands in the Lesser Antilles also meant, that the Native settlements were small and couldn't call in reinforcements, since every island was basically its own tribe.
There was multiple diseases hitting Native Americans and the interior of the North America has been inhabited sparsely, so I can still see some sort of alternative Wild West scenario happening. In our world most of the colonial powers held a loose grip over the Americas, so the Latin America could turn out similar to our world, but also closer to what Africa or South East Asia looks like. I agree Incas and Aztek empires could survive in some form, if the European knowledge of metallurgy or gunpowder got to them in time.
I can see Vinland turning into a dominant power in the North, with English colonies still rebelling into some sort of USA, absorbing French and Netherland areas. Again, there wasn't many european colonists in our world compared to the vast lands they settled in. With stronger native Americans some western alliance could large part of the real-life USA, but not that much. Also Alaska could still have been sold to Vinland if they were independent on Scandinavia.
So my take on is the map would be similar, but with Vinland being the superpower, USA their somewhat friendly neighbor, not so friendly neighbor on the western coast and some (union, confederation...) and a different kind of Mexico to the south.
3 part Realistic alternate british empire.
Britian colonized Argentina.
Imperial Federation.
West indies Federation.
"Greenland" shows real estate developers are the same in any era.
Balkanised NA, unified Inca SA, and less wealthy EU overall is a wonderful endgame, love it
They named a country vinland bc of vinland saga truly a i have no enemys moment
I could hear Neatling talk about vikings for hours
7:21 "Perhaps ending with something along these lines"
Observation: Estonia, as well as much of Latvia and Karelia, depicted green next to Finland and Sweden, were ruled by Sweden up until 1710 when they were pushed back by Peter the Great. With a strong Scandinavia that wouldn't have happened. Instead Sweden would've expanded its territories further into Russia and there probably wouldn't have been a dude we know as Peter the Great - he would've been steamrolled by the Swedish army.
On second thought, maybe there would've been Peter the Great after all - a great Swedish Army General.
But... come to think of it, and digging deeper into Viking history, they were all over the place from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea from the 8th-9th centuries, making trade with Constantinople and later forming the Varangian Guard of Byzantine emperors. Again, with a strong Scandinavia, why would their influence over time diminish instead of growing? We could've had some sort of Viking Empire in the east, with Nordic culture and way of life. In an alternate history.
Here's my idea: What if the Ottoman Empire survived into the modern days?
Personally, I would hope that this increase in scandinavian power would mean that we would resist christian influence entirely.
That we would remain spiritually and culturally rooted in asatron.
Instead of having our heritage stolen from us by the thrice-cursed christians as it happened in our world.
Maybe we would have our own script based on a refined and modernized version of our runes, even?
Don't forget about "Swedish Pomerania (Swedish: Svenska Pommern; German: Schwedisch-Pommern). It was a dominion under the Swedish Crown from 1630 to 1815, situated on what is now the Baltic coast of Germany and Poland.
Remember that Pizarro arrived to Perú with just 180 soldiers, and Cortes to México with just 600, so it was not a question of numbers but strategy. Perú and México would have been conquered anyway.
Really cool, thank you for this video.
You should look into how the vikings already interacted with the Sami and in Ukraine. Probably a Vinland settlement would act more similar to those encounters, rather than trying to "paint the map" like "manifest destiny" westward exspansion.
When encountering the Sami, Vikings established mutually beneficial trade relationships where the Norse traded metalwork such as knives, salt and fish for fur, meat and manpower. Vikings specialized in coastal fishing and settled along the coast, while the Sami kept closer to their hunting grounds inland. A Vinland colony would most likely not expand in areas where the Indigenous peoples 1. had better knowledge on how to hunt and gather. 2. Already were in a trading relationship with them. 3. One would be far away from supplies and safety of the longships.
In Ukraine, the Norse sought to create a unified, centrally powered and culturally integrating kingdom that would protect the vital trade route along the Dnieper. They were just a small minority, but created strongpoint settlements where trade, defense and religion could connect the vast expanses between the Baltic and Black sea. This was done in cooperation with the local majority population, with the Norse often acting as mercanaries, arbitors and administrators. A Vinland settlement would probably seek to create strong Indigenous empires that would protect the tradelanes from the Great Lakes region, the Hudson river valley and later the Mississippi. One could imagine a Proto-Iroquoian super-confederation with a mixed Norse/native nobility to protect the trade in fur, timber and bog Iron from the great lakes region. Vinland ending up as a major hub for sale of iron tools, fish and boatbuilding. Along the eastern coast of modern US proto-Algonquian trade settlements at the mouth of the rivers would probably trade and interact with Norse who would keep using their ship-knowledge to access unique resources.
Yay, new althistory.
Mesoamerica was as diverse as Europe culturally and ethnically before Colombus arrival, and having beasts of burden and metallurgy early, would have changed the dynamics absolutely, this completely overrides the idea of european domination in the New World
The Vinland settlement was really pretty much on its own. As weather cooled and middle age warm.period passed...the settlement was probably no longer feasible without continual support and immigration to the settlement.
Especially if there was conflict with native tribes. Which a European disease could have triggered.
If Columbus had known about Vinland and North America, he wouldn't have attempted to reach India across the Atlantic. Imagine a timeline where the Americas are colonized centuries later, maybe at the same time as Africa.
Two criticisms, first in our time over 80% i think closer to 90% of native Americans died from disease even with 3 or 4 centuries of time to remove the natives would still not be at pre discovery population levels, second in this timeline the black plague hadn't hit europe yet, what happens when the black death is spreading in America during the 14th and 15th centuries?
Oh, that is a good point
The black death would struggle to cross the Atlantic since the s carriers of the plague would die before managing to cross. For example in the real world when a ship from England carrying the plague entered the Norwegian capitol of Bergen in 1349, all onboard had either died or were dying.
What I was hoping to hear is how the 1492 and onward discoveries could have changed. Would Columbus and others have heard about the new lands? I think absolutely, over those 500 years it would have been surfaced and explorations would have started sooner and with more intent. Remember there were people like Guðríður, Erik the Red's daughter in law and mother to Snorri the first European born in the western hemisphere, that traveled from Iceland to Rome and back to Iceland. There's no way news of the new continent would have remained secret for half a millennium.
Very interesting concept. The Dutch and the Swedes had small colonies in NY, PA, NJ and Delaware, but The English subjugated them. The English also conquered French Canada. English pirates raided Spanish colonies from the Sea, and Spanish gold and silver Galleons returning to Spain. The fact that Colonists rebelled against England with the help of France and won their dependence, is a miracle. They almost lost the War of 1812 which could have cost them their freedom.
the u.s. was strongly against the British. Even today. the u.s. is very anti-British
the u.s.also strongly opposed any groups that even questioned the u.s.
the u.s. colonists. did lose the war of 1812. The war was very quick and definite.
Similarly with the battle of Little Big Horn.
After nearly a century of wars.
established a fairly stable border between Canada & the u.s.
Excellent video!
The problem with this idea is the Norwegian support. Iceland and Greenland didn't submit to Norwegian rule until the 13th century and before that, both acted as their own sovereign states with no allegiance to the king of Norway. Without those countries under Norwegian rule, the idea of a crown-supported colonial quest from Norway is not only highly unlikely but most probably logistically impossible for the technology of the time.
so this is what yung filly was talking bout
You assume every royal marriage that happened in our timeline would happen in this alternate timeline. The Kalmar Union was the result of a series of events that require exactly that. The death of a king without a male heir ending the Norwegian dynasty and putting a Swedish king on the throne. That union was short but the Swedish dynasty continued to rule as kings of Norway. What then followed the death of another king and then a few years later his son ending the last Scandinavian dynasty and putting power into the hands of his mother who was Danish (followed by Germans ruling from Denmark).
That's how Norway fell, a series of unfortunate events, not through some inevitable conquest.
Your back!
wouldn't such early and consistent viking presence potentially mean a lot of trade with natives and indigenous people modernising much earlier?
0:53 This ruin is in Greenland, not Vinland
Interesting... It would not be necessary for the Vinland colony to survive as an independent entity rather than merging with one or more Native American groups, for the transfer of horses, other livestock, iron-working and European diseases to happen, so an alternative-alternative is one where such a merger happened, and European and American history continued with no further contacts until the time the Spanish arrived in otl. It's unlikely they would have encountered the Aztecs as such - the latter were relatively recent conquerors of the region they ruled in 1520, and their rise was presumably a contingent matter, which centuries of different history would likely have prevented - but whoever they did encounter would have been much better able to resist them! The influx of precious metals and cash crops from the Americas in otl made a considerable contribution to European power and influence in Asia, so this alternative timeline might never have seen the extent of European predominance and the size of European empires seen in otl - although Europeans would still have had the advantage of being intermediaries between the Americas and the rest of the world.
4:15 uuuuh that's awful, the Incas didn't reach that far south, not at all!
What if your dad never left for milk
Wrong, the Irish were first in the Americans from Europe. They arrived between 512-530
Are you referring to St Brendan the Voyager?
Nice
Amazing timeline. Can we do a collaboration?
Awesome 👍
There is another improvement that natives would have gained, a crucial one, and not only for transportation...the wheel .
Looks at my Magna Mundi Gameplay, Looks at this, Looks at gameplay, Blinks a few times.
"Wat".
An italian youtube channel actually made an entire alternative history series from 476 ad (when the western roman empire does not fall) up to present days, where vinland is in fact the swedish/scandinavian version of modern day canada
Video link please
Everyone is talking about vinland saga. What pops into my head is vikings Valhalla
What If Byzantium Colonized North America aka Third Odyssey?
AMERICA CONTINENT, ALASKA A ARGENTINA, IS AMERICAN CONTINENT,AMERICA, OTOMAN EMPIRE NEVER
I wouldn't mind a unified Scandinavian nation, our language is pretty much the same and we think of each other like family
❤🇸🇪❤🇩🇰❤🇧🇻❤
Great video! I hope/ bet on. In an another universe this would have come to pass, a meager comfort thought but still its something. Oh I wish for a Nordic Union in jolly cooperation with the EU but still distinct from our southern neighbours
Spread of disease depends on how far Vinlanders travel. Northeastern North America wasn't exactly what you'd call densely populated a thousand years ago. Probably why there wasn't a continent-wide die off around 1000. How far Vinlander settle also depends whether or not they act like Vikings, that is to say they don't kill the first Dorset people they encounter on the spot. If they mellow out and tolerate their natives (instead of killing or ignoring them), the better conditions than in Greenland would allow population growth and a place that some Greenlanders can flee towards during the Little Ice Age. Seems that expanding glaciers and icebergs might cut Vinland off from the rest of Europe, isolating them for a couple centuries. That's my two cents anyway, take it for all the copper it's worth.
Vinland... Vineland... Hmm, I found the Mortal Engines place.
there are endless potential for vinland. endless land that can be cultivated. it would have to be cleared but slowly but surely it could expand. the other colonials would like you say would have a much harder time with stronger and more plentyful natives.
Russia would be much weaker from the nordics having more land, and good ports.
Cultivated. Yes, to a certain extent only in the southern parts.
Nice video! I am a little skeptical that the European diseases would spread all the way from Vinland to Central/South America, but it's not impossible.
Reaching Central America would be child's play for Norsemen after stabilization of Vinland colony, but to them reaching Inca empire it would take some more innovation in naval technology.
@@Motofanable The big question for me is whether they'd prefer to go down the coast, or follow the river upstream. I suppose it depends on which direction had the most, hmm, "raidability"...?
@@hoi-polloi1863 I don't think that raidability is that big factor, it more depends how much of supplies they could take with them on ships.
The Viking colonization was more outpost and cultural expansion than political. Later colonization like the British, Spanish and French which managed the colonies remotely than the Vikings.
I also like your scandinavia videos. What about some more scandinavia videos ...
I think in the Vinland the native American will be treated less harshly as Saami people were.
Data shows asimulation by natives
Limited evidence to suggest the reason.
Best guesses are due to the solation that was experience by the settlers
Very good video but I do think you missed one part. What happens with Africa and African peoples in the Americas in this timeline.
I think this means no real Spanish empire, no protestant north, no Netherlands, a weak England, and an unmatched juggernaut France with free reign because the balance of power has just gone out the window. This possibly also means no age of colonialism as Europe would be busy fighting, resisting, surviving France on a whole other level than in our time. Instead the big colonial power might actually be the ottoman empire.
Alternative title: What if the world was better?
What if Carthage industrialized? What if the Aztec Empire survived and Industrialised*? What if the Inca Empire survived and Industrialized?
What if the USA was a market socialist country or a social democracy?
What if Japan wasn't a Island?
I feel like trade routes wouldn't make it to the incan or at the very least would take hundreds of years too because so many factors would stop that with an under supplied colony in the far north with many other trading partners
the danes did try setting up colonies in some islands in middle america in our time as well, so the colonial expansion wouldn't be that far off
What if America took Baja and Yucatan peninsula's during the mexican american War?
What if america purchased and fully Settled the islands of Vancouver and Cuba?
Why i want america to have these pennisulas and isalnds.
Fossil Fuels without having to contend with geopolitical laws.
The shear potential of.
Alaskan Pipelines.
And
Offshore Oil and Gas.
There is absolutely no hard evidence of any conflict OR signficant contact between the Norse and native peoples in Helluland (Baffin Island) or Vinland (the L'Anse aus Meadows settlement and UNESCO Wolrd Heritage Site on Newfoundland). What we DO know from clear archaeological evidence is that the Native people in the Baffin Island, Quebec and N Greenland area were the Dorset people, they were genetically distinct from both the Thule (proto-Inuit) who supplanted them as well as the Innu and Beothuk in Labrador and Newfoundland. There were NO Dorset or Thule anywhere near the Greenland colonies at any time the Norse were present. There are a few references to the Skraelings (likely the Beothuk) in Labrador and then the Beeothuk were eventually extincted by the Innu, English and the Mi'kmaq by the early 1800s. Later evidence suggests the Beothuk were not especially warlike and avoided alien contacts. It is the responsibility of Scientists, including Ethnographers, Archaeologists, Historian and Paleontologists to collect, analyze, review and share evidential matter and then develop theories about what happened to past cultures and peoples. This doesn't include kow-towing to current hipster, Woke bias that "whites" always created conflict, oppressed and extermnated native peoples. The Dorset were solely extincted by the Inuit. Fact. And the Beothuk were done in by both Native Innu and Mi'kmaq as well as the English. There is no reason to assume a Norse colonization of Newfoundland would have been identical to the English, had Norway, Iceland and Greenland not been decimated by the Black Plague and the Little Ice Age. None.
I want to read about this time so much and to learn how vikings went to vinland but.....I'm afraid that I will spoil Vinland Saga for me so maybe after the series is over
Ooh this one was cool! Thank you for the video! I would like to learn more about Vinland. Does anyone have any particularly good resources they would recommend on the subject?
God be with you out there everybody! ✝️ :)
And may Odin walk with you, friend.
@@vegardbratteng9997 Do you actually believe in Odin?
What about the black death in the 14th century? It had a big impact in europe and would have also influenced your scenario i guess.
Imagine if Neatling trolled us and those his video was written by ChatGPT
Hasn’t it been confirmed that the Viking settlements on Newfoundland were outpost and not the actual colony?
I think Scandinavia would own alot more of the baltic sea,. Since it would help trade in the Scandiavias + The great nordic war would've happened but gone more in the favor of scandinavia since they have less enemies and more people to throw at the now Russians and maybe polish lithuanian commonwealth but still therem ight be other wars due to these changes in history which could remove the territories.
Are you danish?
I don't see a possibility of Denmark-Norway being able to militarily force Sweden into another Kalmar Union. They would have to come to some sort of agreement. Trade rights and different types of privileges would be of great importance. The original Kalmar Union was established because of a common interest, it could have been done again with some luck.
WhT if þe North Sea kingdom survived
The Vikings would have broken the disease barrier earlier, the Native population would have recovered in a few generations and then by the time that they had ships larhe enough to transport whole armies to the region, the Natives would have been a far more developed economy and population, some of the Vikings would have married into them, The Ottomans (with superior ships) would have taken Spain's place in the race to colonize the New World.
The slave trade may have been centered in Northern Europe (Ireland and The UK in particular) in the early part of colonialism, if they could keep their territories.
Ottomans didn't have superior ships. They had galleys suited for the mediterranean. The Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts (1538 to 1559) proved the superiority of Iberian and western ocean going ships.
It makes me wonder about religion. Norse religion was an ethnic religion just like most if not all north american indigenous religions. So there might not be much stress placed on way of worship but maybe borrowing from each other? Would the cree or iroquois really except viking technology like swords and armor? Would an indigenous but viking influenced society emerge? How far would the tech spread? Metallurgy? Would it spread throughout the entirety of the americas?
There's a lot more consequences the you realize.
The Habsburgs would be significantly weakened by not having colonies in the Americas to fund their two front wars against France and the Ottomans for instance...
Greenland likely means "new land" not "the color green land". Green as in, fresh.
While a great scenario, I am not so sure about there not being some kind of continent spanning nation in the Americas for a very simple reason: the nomadic nature of the majority of Native tribes and the difficulty therein of sustain trade. While there were truly civilized nations in the Mississippi basin that could rival empires like the Aztecs and Inca, they were the exception as the rest were still hunter gatherers or nomadic. When presented with more advanced technology, many of these did not give up their livelihoods but simply used them to improve said livelihoods while only a very small handful developed into proper nations (such the Mohawk, Pueblo and Apache) thanks greatly to European political inspiration.
Because of this, those nations that did develop in our world would do so and likely become their own nations, but the rest? The Indian Wars are full of examples of these nations teaming up with Europeans to conquer and subdue hostile tribes, often raiding nomads, and it would be no different just merely bloodier. As such, while the conquest of America would take longer and definitely involve a number of native nations surviving through military independence or more even integration, it still would be conquered.
The dominant powers of North America therefor would be a kind of United States (British) as they were the strongest politically and likely would see the demise of the French colonies, a far stronger Mexico that has more time to consolidate instead of getting curbstomped immediately by the US, a number of Native Nations that might unite into a coalition (see Mohawk Confederacy), and the Nordic Kingdom in what is today Canada, which go their first and has had time to solidify the rule.
The Pueblo already had civilisation since ancient times