The Truth About the Forrestal Fire
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Ward reviews the details about the disastrous fire aboard USS Forrestal (CVA-59) on July 29, 1967 off the coast of Vietnam.
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I was a hospital corpsman on the Forrestal that day - it was amazing that they were able to save the ship.
What's amazing it they didn't manage to sink her by pouring millions of gallons of seawater down the hole in the flight deck.. After the initial explosions most of the damage was caused by the firefighting efforts. There was a training failure on every level. They did their best but the Navy left them woefully unprepared. It was a terrifying lesson but we did learn it.
God was watching over them, especially when there were two near misses to the LOX generating plant below decks.
@@patrickweaver1105 May God, Buddha, and Great Spirit,,, Bless You, and Your Family,,, For Your Service...
I,too, know someone that was on deck...he's never talked about it, at least not to me.
@@patrickweaver1105 It wasn't training dude. Those in charge of initial firefighting did all they could. It was a HUGE event that caused MASSIVE damage. It took out KEY personal. It was higher up issues that stem from trying to do more with less. If they had of stuck with normal practices and not tried to 'out do' other CV's and bypass safety issues nothing would have gone wrong. The training of those in charge left command in a situation where they were unprepared. if you concentrate and pay attention to how quick the initial damage control crew got on to the fire... they did outstanding. Ward alludes to 'foam' being a big thing however it is actually a very specialized and limited capacity of firefighting unless deliberately engineered in to a system. There was THOUSANDS of pounds of explosives and TENS OF THOUSANDS OF pounds of explosives in action here, that took out key parts of fire/damage control.
Also the US Navy has not 'learn it' as you say. They lost a ship in dry dock from incompetence and deliberate arson. Damn there are so many things wrong with your flippant comment that it is frustrating. I have done it myself however the last thing i can leave you with is 'most of the damage was caused by firefighting efforts'. Unless you can provide proof people died from drowning vs fire and bomb injuries... i'd say from what i have seen (video) and heard (testimony) that most of the damage was caused by the bombs and fuel, they pumped out all the water used to fight the fires...
Damn
My dad Captain Sam Mowad was also on that carrier that day. He was recognized for his bravery that day for treating the injured and identifying the dead. He was a young dentist who continued to serve another 34 years.
I can't imagine how terrible this would have been for a member of the dental team, faced with having to try and id the remains of those sailors, airmen, marines, etc. I salute his duty.
Kudos
I joined F-4B squadron VF-74 the next year. The mood amongst the survivors was a mix of somber and heightened alertness. Shipmates are still around and populate several FB interest groups.
May God, Buddha, and Great Spirit,,, Bless You, and Your Family,,, For Your Service...
VF 74 was our sister squadron Med Cruise 81..aboard the Forrestal
VF-74, line crew, 1973, CV-59 carrier quals of Florida,
Ever seen a ufo out there during your time?
@@stephenrickstrew7237 I was aboard the FID 81-84! V-4 Div & TAD V-74 !! We were the last Carrier besides the first to have a Full compliment of Phantoms as the primary fighter!!
Every Marine a rifleman, every sailor a firefighter.
Amen.
Copy that, shipmate
@@odiewan67 For the record, I am not a Navy sailor. But those guys are cool!
I was
Every trigger mechanism fails because of...humidity...hahahahaha.
Definitely sad how so many vital lessons are learned. Those men that ran to their tragic deaths in the face of obvious great danger to extinguish this horrendous fire rival those equally brave men and women on 911. Extremely well presented and narrated by Ward!! Jim C.
Can confirm - I went to aviation FF school in SD in 1993 or 1994, and part of the training was showing the Forrestal fire. and I was the lead hose on the bomb of the training plane, so i'll never forget!
Same here but in 87. On lead hose when a 1st Class tapped me on the shoulder and pointed to fire curving around to men behind me. Went full sweep to back it up. After they worked us to exhaustion put the next fire out with foam. Much easier.
@@staceyshinske3998 I did firefighting school 32nd St. SD in the 70's and at Miramar.
Absolutely.....BRAVO ZULU FDNY Ret.
What happened to the switch on the landing gear strut that arms the weopons systems
Hi Mooch,
Another piece I saw on this incident and also read about elsewhere said that the Chief with the fire extinguisher actually saved many
more lives than he is credited. He recognised the Korean bombs, knew of their instabilities, also knew they would "cook off"
at a significantly lower temperature than the others in use. His quick action to literally get in the fire and cool the bombs delayed detonation
by some time and he is credited elsewhere of probably single handedly saving the ship.
This incident is one of the things people do not realise about Carrier Aviation. Airfields are BIG so nasty stuff like fuel and ordinance is kept
well away from each other. Ships are SMALL and all that stuff is a lot closer together and causes much bigger problems faster.
Cheers from Australia!
Andrew
Before MEN flew TOMCATS they flew PHANTOMS!
My daughter's paternal uncle was stationed on the U.S.S. Forestall. I don't recall much about what he did to get this medal, but I do know he received the Bronze Star for his bravery saving many sailors lives that day. Bravo Zulu for everyone who have and currently serving in our great military.
When my husband did his standard 3-day fire-fighting training in 1974 at HMS Phoenix as part of Sub-Lieutenants courses, the USS Forrestal fire was subject of major lecture during which that flight-deck film was shown. Apart from fire-fighting another point made was value of 'knowing your ship', in that in major fire it was lifesaving skill to know every route possible to escape from your berth, workplace, etc.
Really true if it's smoke filled and the lights are out
They were still lecturing on that and showed the film in my boot class in 1992. Also when I onboarded my ship the first thing they had me do was find my way from the berthing to the weather deck blindfolded.
They were still teaching this at HMS Phoenix in 1991 when I attended. I remember the instructor pointing out CPO Farrier attacking the fire with an extinguisher in the footage. Its fitting that the USN named the Fire School for him.
@@whelk Ditto for the USN damage control school at Treasure Island. Everyone going through any sort of damage control training there saw this video. TI is also the first place where I saw drug testing. But that's a different story.
@@eaton33a Yes it is. I attended that school, NS Mayport, FL.
I came aboard the Forrestal iin 1969 as a plane captain with VF11....you could still smell the fire below decks. Thank you for this clear and cogent summary of what happened. Much appreciated.
I came aboard in 1972 as an AT in VF-11, Bunked in the 90 man compartment at the fantail. Laid awake many nights knowing that squadron members died in the same exact place I was laying my head. Still bothers me 51 years later.
Have you ever encountered a ufo during your service or travels? We at MUFON would like to know if so!
@@bk-lx6cb YES at sea in 1975..USS Dubuque LPD-8
RIP For all of those who perished. This was the standard video for training in boot camp and Aviation A school in Pensacola for all fire training.
Same at Millington in ADJ school. RIP guy's, you died serving your country.
Yup, I definitely remember the video in boot camp. Everybody watches it, even if you don't go into Aviation.
And at fire fighting school at NS Mayport, FL.
Also shown at Royal Air Force training for Armourers.
@@jimmym3352 Chief Farrier's nephew was in the same company in boot camp and was sitting beside me when we saw this movie c. 1984. That was his mother's brother. His father who was a retired MCPO, was aboard too.
I had the pleasure of serving on the USS FORESTALL in 1987 when I joined the Marine Detachment. It was during the Shipboard Firefighting School at Mayport, Florida that I learned of the CV-59 fire. Ironically, some of my classmates were crew from the USS STARK that had just returned to port after their Med. cruise.
May those that died that day continue to have 'Fair Winds at their backs and calm following Seas'. Semper Fi!
Ward, one of my high school instructors in the 80s was AOCM Warder. He was the chief of the squadron. There were sailors working on the aircraft when the Zuni launched, and the initial inquiry tried to pin them with the disaster. He always maintained it was an electrical issue caused by going from the huffer to internal power. Thanks for posting.
I read the JAG report yesterday. Two of the AOs working on the F-4 where the Zuni rocket is reported to have fired, apparently disputed the account that a rocket fired. The Board determined they were lying. The evidence documented in the JAG report, of the zuni rocket firing from the F4, seems a bit sketchy and based on experts (who were not there) and footage where "flashes" can be seen. What does your friend say about the zuni? Did it really fire off? Seems convenient considering they transferred McCain the Oriskany the day after the fire. There is no mention in the JAG report about McCain wet starting his A-4. It is silent as to whether his engine was running at the time.
@@photontorpedotube I have never seen the JAG report, and AOCM Warder has passed, so I am unable to ask him. He maintained that his AOs had nothing to do with the rocket firing until he passed. I do know from other people I have worked with who were crew chiefs with the F-4 (mostly Air Force) that in this era, the "safety" pins which broke the circuit between the cockpit controls and the ordinance rails could be overloaded (arced) by an electrical surge. If an external APU (Huffer?) was attached at the time, this could have precipitated a launch. If you have a link to that JAG report, I'd be highly interested in reading it. Lots of DC was relearned and modified as a result of this terrible incident.
@@photontorpedotube
There is no mention of a JMc 'wet start' because there wasn't one. Are you claiming a 'wet start' somehow caused the accident? Because if you are, it indicates that you in fact did NOT read the JAG report nor operating manuals for both the A4 Skyhawk or carrier flight decks. You have lots of explaining to do.
@@trafficsignalman
Not exactly what happened, but you are basically correct, it was just more involved than how you state it. It was a combination of bad procedure, the pin issues, and IMHO, the most important, the pigtail. It also was not that particular arming crew who was at fault, they were just doing what they were ordered to do. It was some CAG higher-ups who made very bad policy/procedures decisions.
@@jamespobog3420 I assume you may be an AO or similar experience. I will defer to you on the detailed mechanics behind the launch, as I was intentionally simple in my statement. I lost contact with AOCM about a year before he passed, almost 30 years ago. I know that event haunted him for the remainder of his life. He lost 30? Sailors from his squadron.
A few points. First, as a baby sailor I too had to watch the videos and attend the firefighting school. They are things I remember to this day, decades later. Second, physics and logic are no barriers to a conspiracy theory! And finally, it both boggles my mind and infuriates me how many times I hear of an accident which includes the phrase "bypassed the safety..."
"physics and logic are no barriers to a conspiracy theory" don't forget facts, or eye witnesses.
If the pins were pulled on the Zuni pods prior to reaching the arming station (as seems to be the case) someone did indeed "bypassed the safety". Super large no no.
91-93 CV-62, I never saw pins pulled before the aircraft's nose was pointed downrange and on the cat. This was probably as a result of the incident if I was to guess.
@@Skyhawks1979 The designated place on a CV/CVN where fixed winged aircraft ordnance is armed prior to a mission is called CAG Arm/Dearm.
Sadly "bypassing the safety" or not following guidelines, orders, checklists, regulations is usually the cause of most mishaps these days... So many regulations and checklists have been written in blood its almost hard to hurt yourself or others if you follow the rules.... We didnt even really start tracking mishaps until around this time in the military.... Hell they worked with no shirts on the flight deck and smoked in the berthing back then....Imagine that now? LOL
I flew cover for the first strike of that AM. ECMO in EA1F's , VAW-13 . Was in readyroom below hangar deck when fire and first bombs when off. Ship rocked and rolled , we evac'd to bow below decks . ended afternoon helping carry dead sailors from fantail to center of hangsr deck temp morgue. Thank God I dont remember how many but they did not weigh much at all. Thanks for this correct review!! ZapperJohn Out
Not to appear dismissive towards those who lost their lives, I'm just glad that there weren't more men hurt. When you think about it, this could have ended up way worse than it did.
Interesting, my dad flew in those planes. I remember him talking about this accident as a kid. I recall him on the Connie and I believe the Forrestal. I think he was in VAW-113 but he was in other squadrons I believe. He was also in two different early warning planes. One being the Hawkeye and that preceded it. Something else I found out his plane actually had engine trouble and was force to land somewhere in Vietnam. He told me this later on in life. In the early 90’s. He had a bunch of 8mm tape of his cruises. Some of it being shot off the carrier and a couple landings. He was extremely proud of how many shots and hooks he recorded during that time. Ohh I remember before I was born he was flying out of Midway and Hawaii. He really enjoyed his job.
@Jim Layton, My ex husband was on the Forrestal that day. He was with the Crash and Salvage CrewHe said that his compartment was just below the Flight Deck. He came home with Survivor's Guilt. He would not talk about it at all. Finally in 2004, he talked to me for at least 2 hrs about it. It was so bad, he started crying about it. He said he saw so many of his friends dying right before his eyes. He had been carrying this around with him for over 40 years. God bless all of the Forrestal Crew. and their memory stay with us. If any of you on here knew Johnny, please let me know as I am giving all of this to our Granddaughter. Thank you all for your service.
@@susanshine8864my dad was a boatswains mate on the Forrestal and was topside during the explosions. He too still suffers from some survivors guilt. He, as many crewmen were tasked with moving injured and deceased crew mates. He has shared with me many times over the years about that tragic and fateful day. But he opened up more only about 7yrs ago with far more details of what he saw and experienced. He has carried the grief and ptsd from that event longer than Ive been alive. Through his sharing of events and the sharing of others who were there, Ive gained a deep love compassion and respect for everyone there. May God (or other deity) rest their souls of those lost and bring peace to those who survived.
As always, well done. A 50min presentation reduced to an accurate, interesting, and sober production in under 8min. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Ward Carol sir; once again you have provided what could have probably been a very dry presentation in the very best manner possible. Thank you so very much for all of the work that you do and of your service to this country.
Semper Fi
Of all the training videos we had to watch, I still remember watching Trial by Fire more than any of the others. I can still vividly remember the narrator saying "the chief with the purple k is dead." I went to shipboard firefighting school three times while in the Navy. Yet that movie, even more than my times attending firefighting school, always weighed on my mind while at sea as to the situation one could find themselves in at a moment's notice. Thank God, I never did.
This one, and "Synthetic Line Snap-Back".
@@matta5498 agree
Only had it happen once and yeah "Trial by Fire" never leaves you. Those guys set an example for the rest of us.
I went four times. Twice to the schools in Norfolk and San Diego. Trial By Fire and The Man Fom Lox and still vivid in my memory 45 years later.
I served on board the USS Stark (FFG-31) from 92 to 95. 37 Sailors died on my ship in May of 1987,,a lot of them in what became My berthing,,,combat systems berthing. I polished that brass plaque more than once. Fire fighting on a ship is the Most Important thing that All Sailors take part in to some degree and something EVERY Sailor on EVERY ship takes to the Utmost degree of importance. The Forrestal is something we were all aware of,,,And our Ship going thru what it did,,made everyone very aware of what Can happen at Literally Any time. In heavy seas, the keel would creak, Giving out a strange sound from where it was slightly bent from the damage it incurred during those 2 missile hits,,damage that could never be fully repaired. It was a constant and sobering reminder.
As I recall from the films I saw during the late 80' and early 90's, quite few of the flight deck personnel ran immediately to help deal with the fire, but they didn't have any fire gear on. There was a scene I'll always remember in which the first explosion literally annihilated scores of men--now they were there, then they weren't. A few months later I was sent to the fire fighting school in San Diego, and the sobering scenes from the movie, in which those heroic guys gave their lives, made me take the training very seriously.
My dad fought it. He told me that multiple groupings of men before him all died in that manner. Those boys were terrified they were the next set to be blown away.
Your breakdown of this accident is more detailed than the version I was taught in firefighting school when I was in the Navy.
Your episodes always enlighten but neither sugarcoats nor overdramatizes. I greatly appreciate your service and the service your channel provides. As a young boy, I used to build model ships & airplanes. One of the very first models I ever built was the carrier Forrestal. Thank you for this video.
As a Marine Aviation Ordnanceman, I was taught repeatedly about Forrestal, and of course we had to watch the video before shipboard firefighting school. (Enlisted aviation Marines have to go to the school before shipboard deployment just like sailors.) I went in '98 before doing time with Harriers on the Belleau Wood, (RIP) again in '01 with Hornets on the John C. Stennis, and then a year later when we went on the Carl Vinson, most of us were still up to date. Sobering stuff.
Have you ever encountered a ufo during your service or travels? We at MUFON would like to know if so!
I had an employee that had been onboard the ship when this all happened. He talked about being below deck and the foam being released from overhead nozzles and the bodies on the stairwells leading to the flight deck. He obviously suffered from PTSD from the experience, but nothing was ever offered to him for his condition,
PTSD...I was aboard
Did you treat him well and give him good pay and treat him with the utmost respect? Did you provide him with paid vacation and insurance as well ?????
I remember watching this in Aircraft firefighting classes every time before deployment. I was on the Nimitz in '81 when the EA-6B crashed during our pre-cruise workups. I was an Aircrewman with HS-9. That was a Hell of a night for everyone. We lost some good people.
There too. R-Division
Did HS-9 medevac any of the injured? If so, I may have unloaded the injured from one of your birds. I was standing duty at NAS Cecil Field Clinic the night that happen. We sent 3 ambulances to NAS Jax transient line to transfer the injured from H-3s to NRMC Jax. Three of my friends were squadron corpsmen with the two A-7 and the S-3 squadrons on Nimitz. I was concerned that I may find one of them on the stretchers we were handling. Thankfully, they all survived; but told chilling stories of that night. Most of the injured I help transport were "Red Shirts" struck by exploding ordnance. You don't forget things like that. Glad you made it, sorry for the loss of your ship mates.
I remember reading about that crash in the paper as a kid. My interest in the Navy had been piqued by that time thanks to the movie 'The Final Countdown' released the previous year. Maybe Ward can do a review on that crash?
Was on the USS America, or had just got back from our 81 IO cruise when that happened, a friend of mine from Framp school in Miramar was aboard, n got hurt but survived, things changed rapidly after that incident..
Even in Canada, Aircraft operations and safety had this fire training film in the National Defense curriculum for CF training, that detailed both the fire safety, but also the explosives / ordinance safety.
Damn I’ve watched 2 hour documentaries about forreststal and you summed it up perfectly while keeping all the relevant info in 10 minutes. Brilliant video. Always love seeing a new one by you
Appreciate the video, Thanks for posting. As a veteran of the event 50+ years ago, and having seen the first rocket fired across the flight deck while on watch on the bridge of DD851 1000 yards astern Forrestal; then nothing for the next 10 hours at GQ deep within the Destroyer, you've refreshed fading memories best never forgotten. I've seen other video of the actions taken to save Forrestal but none of the first few minutes.
Have you ever encountered a ufo during your service or travels? We at MUFON would like to know if so!
Thank you for tour service. My dad was a boatswains mate on the Forrestal. He too was topside when everything happened.
My cousin was a corpsman on the USS Repose during this disaster.
I remember he wrote a letter home to my mother, his aunt, telling her about bagging and tagging numerous bodies. Then sitting down and eating breakfast next to the same stacks of body bags , several hours after the fire.
So many of us who manned the deck have been through fire fighting schools and been so well prepared for these accidents. As a Veteran of the Forestall I really appreciate you doing this sir. I came after this and served on her last cruises and she was a great home for us. Thank you again sir.
V2 Division Cat 1 Hook Up and Holdback.
Thank you for clearing McCain. He might have been a lot of things, but being the cause of this fire should never have been blamed on him.
A very concise and 'cut-to-the-chase' video, Ward, with no fluff. A LOT of great comments here, too, from service members who were either directly or indirectly involved in this accident.
I did a lot of research of this incident while I was in the Navy, just out of interest. It made me recognize and appreciate how much safer operations have become on aircraft carriers now. It's easy to take things for granted until you understand the reasons the 'why' behind the procedures. It gives you a greater appreciation for them and how they affect your safety and that of your shipmates.
As for the McCain conspiracy theorists, well--that one's easy. Once you get a clear understanding of how this accident happened, it becomes painfully obvious that those people didn't bother to do even a minimal amount of research. Keep up the good work, Mr. Carroll.
Do you believe the official story about the JFK Assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin, or 911?
@@hanc37show me ALL evidence that points to McCain causing the fire.
@@hanc37Everyone, even Wikipedia, knows the real story behind the Gulf of Tonkin. The military knew that story was bs hours after they sent it up the chain.
Weird bit of trivia though, the man in charge of that ship was Jim Morrison's dad.
@@Ashakat42 McNamara himself admitted it.
I joined the Navy in 1977. I went through the Navy's fire fighting school in San Diego. It was the best class I attended in boot camp. The lessons learned there were primarily a result of the Forrestal fire. In a time before cell phone cameras, only the Navy's concern with capturing everything on the flight deck made capturing the harrowing moments possible.
I continue to carry my fire fighting training with me. Just one of those value added experiences from my enlistment.
I first saw it at RTC Orlando in '78 and I saw it a few more times before I got out in '84.
Having been in the Navy 82-88 aboard USS Midway CV-41 83-86 I had heard all sorts of Rumor mill crap about this incident It is nice to see a concise report to quash those rumors . I enjoy your channel keep up the great work. ABF3 TYLER
Were you onboard when that A-7 had that bad ramp strike?
Shout out to you grapes
I remember my first fire fighting school, 1972, Norfolk. We watched the training film, “Trial By Fire”.
Thank you for clearing McCain’s name. Always heard his plane’s Zuni missile caused the mishap.
Same here. John McCain was an A-4 pilot and his plane wasn't even carrying the rockets. The F-4's were.
Yup McCain's A-4 was one of the aircraft hit by shrapnel from the Zuni, and the fire spread to his aircraft due to the fuel leaking from it's damaged fuel tanks. The only action he took was climbing out over the nose of his burning aircraft and running away, narrowly escaping the first secondary explosion.
@@jeffburnham6611 only one question - why is an air to air platform like the F4 carrying an AGM like a Zuni?
@@eq1373 The planes they were using were F-4Bs the Phantom was not just a fighter it did a little of everything the plane loadout is dictated by the mission. A loadout for a AG mission could be 5.0 inch Zuni Rocket pods (6) Mk 83s Snakeyes possibly AIM-9s if they have to Dogfight.
Funny how McCain was flown off while the ship was on still on fire. Because of his daddy was an Admiral.
Thank you for this video. The bogus rumor about John McCain being the cause of this accident was incredibly offensive to me. The lives lost that day deserve better. I was an enlisted man serving in VF-151 on the USS MIDWAY. The training we received and the procedures we used to prevent this from happening again saved a lot of lives, including my own. I found it incredibly disrespectful that the men who died that day were used as a pawn in some sick and twisted hateful manner with no regard whatsoever for the truth. Just sickening. Thank you for setting the record straight.
I served on a destroyer at the end of the Viet Nam war. I went to fire school every year and watched the Forestal and Enterprise fire movies every year. I was also given one week to become familiar with the ship before passing a blindfold and crawl to the main deck drill twice. Once was from my berthing compartment and one from a random part of the ship. I was warned to not make fun of sailors crawling through passageways or someone would give you a blindfold and let you do the drill again.
Have you ever encountered a ufo or flying saucer during any of your travels?
Every firefighter should have to do a blindfold test since smoke will essentially blind you and fire can take out electrical systems.
My first cruise was was aboard Forrestal attached to HS3. With 3 more to follow aboard Forrestal with HS3 and HS15. I read that bronze plaque for the 134 sailors many many times. Now it is in the Pensacola museum. I really got to know my way around that ship. She will always have a warm spot in my heart. ADR1 Retired.
I always appreciate your informed commentary. Well Done Sir.
I served on FID in 1986 and couldn’t help but stop and read the bronze memorial plaque every time I walked through the hangar deck. So tragic, but we all learned from it, and continue to do so to this day.
I was aboard in 86 as well with VA-176 and my berthing was the last aft compartment directly below the flight deck. I still remember the Trial by Fire movie from boot camp and it was a little spooky moving into that space when I thought about it.
I was on her sister ship Sara in 86. This is known by all, such a sad day.
An excellent summary of what really happened.
The BOI investigative report can be found on line and should be read by everyone that has a safety or CRM function in the military.
CAPT Belig did not want to accept those outdated bombs but had to. To get them off his ship he decided to drop them on the North Vietnamese ASAP....
It is so tragic that Chief Ferrier and his flight deck firefighting crew walked into a trap that they had no knowledge of.
There is flight deck video showing then LCDR McCain exiting his Skyhawk, sliding down the refueling probe, and getting out of the fire.
The lessons learned made the Enterprise fire less serious than it could have been.
Agreed. I served onboard the Big 'E.' There was a little protrusion of flight deck just aft of the #4 elevator where a parked A-3 Skywarrior burned in that incident. It was warped--possibly from the fire--and would always trap water whenever it rained.
Several of the damaged planes were rebuilt at NAS Alameda at the Naval Air Rework Facility. I saw them during a tour with burn marks still showing. Your review also explains why I, as a QM, had to attend fire fighting school 3 times in 4 years. I eventually used the firefighting skills in a boiler room fire.
Was a little curious when it came to the scene of the crew ditching an RA-5C over the port side. It was forward of the island, and in no danger. It was damaged, but it wasn't burning. I understand that when you have a class D fire (metals that cannot be extinguished by conventional means), it may require the aircraft to be 'deep-sixed.' But it just appeared--in the video at least--that they were just tossing a damaged but salvageable aircraft over the side. Any insight?
I was just finishing up my fifth year in the Navy at NDCTC Philadelphia. Sailors came through our fire school biy the hundreds during my last several months due to Forrestal. While the saga of the fire itself has cooled, the theory about McCain lives on. Glad you put it to rest.
Never a sailor but even I know that the lie about Senator McCain was due to dirty political tricksters (ratfuckers). May all of those responsible for that slander burn in hell they deserve nothing less.
Thanks Ward. I'm "Thankful" to have service on her a few years after this fire. God Bless these men who gave their all.
When I was a kid in 1975, I was able to hear a first hand account from the Forrestal’s chaplain, William David Cooper. He was a guest speaker at our church. His story was inspiring. I recall that he was an O-5 at that time. Capt. Cooper passed away in 2013, age 91.
This is the most concise and transparent review of this tragedy that I have seen.
Thank you Commander for providing truth to this horrific incident ! It is unfortunate for all who have been lost and rules that are written in blood, for the future of Naval Warfare. Having served aboard USS Ranger in CVW-2 with VS-38 it was always creepy, knowing I had my bunk (Top rack) underneath the three wire! I still have nightmares of tail hooks coming through the deck and carrying me away or bombs that may have exploded, because of this incident!
Don't think I ever stepped onto the flight deck when I didn't have my eye out for hazards to myself but more importantly to my shipmates and the safety of the flight deck. Lessons learned from Forestall Enterprise Oriskiny and many others have kept us safer going forward. Something as simple as there is no sitting during flight qtrs. while on the flight deck, guys (and later girls) work horrendous hours and are dogged tired, allowing them to sit would allow them to doze off. Lots of little things contribute to safe flight operations.
Sparky
Like doctor interns, I never understood the 16 hour days we were made to work. For Safety's Sake!
A video about the Forrestal incident was on a constant loop at the cafeteria in Great Lakes while I was in boot camp in ‘98. I have very vivid memories of it.
in 2012 videos covering the forrestal and the cole where used during damage control training as examples of why everyone learns damage control and what good damage control looks like. It make sense as a good to explain to 17,18 year olds why even a yeoman or personal specialist need to know basic DC.
Mr. Ward. You did a fantastic job helping me understand such a tragedy. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Thank you for dispelling the McCain Did It! conspiracy. I remember watching the official film in boot, and going to the fire trainer tower (we failed, but better there than being surprised during an actual) and the USS Dixie Cup. Every sailor is versed in damage control, even though at the time there was the DC rate.
Nice cover story. We all know.mccain didn't belong in the navy
yes it is later on in life that mccain sucked ass
McCain did do it when he hot started his plane. no hot headed McCain no forest fire. The history as been Orwellized to clear his name but the blood is on his hands.
McCain still sold out his fellow POWs, so he's not as innocent as you want him to be. May he rot in Hell.
I remember seeing footage of McCain climbing out of his cockpit and tightrope walking the refueling boom to leap clear of the flames. And I also remember seeing a documentary about how they finally figured out what caused it, because no camera was actually pointed at the plane the missile came from… but an investigator going over footage from cameras pointed forward saw a reflection of a streak of light in the glass window the camera was shooting thru. They were able to calculate the angle of the glass to the reflected image and determine the plane the missle had to have come from.
Thank you for these details.
Anything to protect McCain.
@@jasonm949 STFU armchair conspiracist. The footage and the investigation identified the source aircraft and how the missile fired. Even if it had come from McCain’s plane, ( which it most definitely did not ) It would not have been his nor the actual pilot’s fault. It was the safety shortcut taken by the armament team. The one loading the missiles onto the aircraft.
@@jasonm949 McCain did not cause the fire. Rewatch the video. About three months layer, McCain was shot down and captured. So much for protecting McCain.
It was a pretty miraculous escape. He transferred to the Oriskany immediately after this and was subsequently shot down.
Thanks! I saw the video from the island when I was about to graduate from aviation school and enter the fleet in 1968. I was land based first then went aboard the Indy for the 1971-72 Med cruise. I was in the berthing compartment just below the arresting cable area. It was always on my mind, how close to the action on deck I was, 24/7. I was part of the flight deck crew called a plain captain in a squadron of Phantoms. Although I wouldn't trade that experience for the world I didn't want to repeat it.
I went into the Navy in 1996. The Forrestal fire was heavily discussed in boot camp, specifically about the lessons we learned that day. Rule number one, don't put all your eggs in one basket; everyone learns fire fighting. It's always a bad sign when I become emotionally distraught over little things (it means I have missed my anti-depressants too many time in a row). That being said, your mention of Chief Farrier made me instantly verklempt. Running towards a fire with a handheld fire extinguisher, knowing he had precious little time to get on top of the fire, is my definition of a hero . I will admire that man and his actions to my dying breath.
Watched the navy film "Trial by fire" at Great Lakes NTC during our training, the emphasis was to show "WHAT" can happen during an flight deck fire and the lessons to be learned going forward. Thanks for the video and clearing up the late Sen. McCain "detractors".
McCain's detractors support a certain man who believe anything he tells them.
As tractor king on Indy, I made certain that our huffer's were always pointed away from ordinance. This was one of our training films. My instructor made note if the silver suited crash crew wading in to save pilots, never to be seen again. I was not aware that this short set the rocket off, and I knew we had IR sensitive sidewinders on the tomcats and hornets. For every flight deck rule, lives were paid. Epic channel Mooch! Cheers!
USMC GSE Mechanic here.........A/S
Commander thank you for my request covering this, I've been arguing for years that Capt McCain wasn't responsible...I've audible all three book....FANTASTIC...your books really make the Naval Aviators look human..."USS Ranger CV61 Topgun Bar none"
I remember watching the Forrestal film more than once when I was in US Navy boot camp Jan to March 1980. It really made an impression.
This is a story of courage! The crew went above and beyond to do their duty! 💖
Iff you don't put the fire out you're going swimming
@@philgiglio7922 HA!! Yep. I've heard that particular truism many times in my tours.👍👍👍
This was one of the best explanations for the fire, I have seen. Thanks Ward.
I currently teach weapons electrical systems to RAF weapons techs. We still use this video to show how quickly a situation can develop if you deviate from the correct procedures. It gets the message across very effectively !!
Just watched the video. Was in the Navy when the fire occurred so know the story but Mooch always explains things to a greater depth. Just wanted to add that our daughter was in the decommissioning crew in Philly and was the last sailor of the month on the Forrestal.
As squadron maintenance personnel, we were shown the documentary 'Trial by Fire' many times, which showcases the ordeal of the Forrestal. We also attended recurrent firefighting training once a year. There were also major fires aboard the Enterprise and the Oriskany during this time frame of Vietnam in which numerous sailors and airmen lost their lives. RIP Shipmates.
Mooch, thank you for re-opening this case and investigating! It's important to many people to know the truth, even decades later. Great vid!
I read a book named "Sailors to the End" about the Forrestal tragedy. It echoed many of the same concerns stated in this video. The old ordinance, the safety shortcuts, and the lack of training for personnel. When I went from an FF to the Constellation, it was a task to find my way around to the places I needed to go- mess decks, work spaces, berthing, personnel, and disbursing. And we were in port.
I reported aboard Forrestal (The FID) while she was in drydock in Portsmouth, VA still being repaired. As a hospital corpsman, I heard all the "war stories" from those who were there that day.
Were you on the Med cruise in ‘68-‘69? I think that was Forrestal’s first cruise after the repairs.
I ask because my dad was an A-4 pilot on Forrestal for that cruise and I got to visit when they were anchored off Greece. Loved the whole experience except for a choppy trip on the liberty boat. I didn’t know anything about the disaster other than that there’d been a bad fire. In the way that kids do, I noticed that the adults didn’t want to talk about it much.
@@pinverarity Yes, I was on it for that cruise, and yes, it was the first cruise following being put back in service. It was also one of the longest (9 Mo.).
@@jackfowler6249 I didn’t realize it at the time (being 6-7 years old), but that was a really significant cruise geopolitically. The U.S. Navy showing the flag mere months after the Prague Spring was crushed, France teetered on the brink, and Italy & Germany were facing widespread civil unrest. Add to that that it wasn’t that long after the Colonel’s Coup in Greece in ‘67 (which threatened the stability of NATO) and the Six Day War in the Middle East. As a kid, I thought it was like a vacation trip for the Navy! Not quite.
My dad was a boatswain mate on the Forestall. Thank you for posting this video. It’s truly amazing she stayed afloat.
I served on the Indy- USS Independence CV-62 from '91-93 as a ship's company ET. I can't imagine how nightmarish it must have been for those guys. It's hard to consider waking up to that in your berthing.
Have you ever encountered a ufo during your service or travels? We at MUFON would like to know if so!
This story and video was a part of every damage control/firefighting training course when I was in the Navy including boot camp.
Same here. I must have seen the video 10 times (at least). It never failed to make an impression.
I enlisted in 1980 and have seen "Trial by Fire" numerous times. Cudos to the brave sailor who rescued their ship; RIP to those who gave their all.
This is by far the best explanation that I've heard on this incident.
When I went through basic training in the Coast Guard in 1979 at Coast Guard Island in Alameda, our company watched this video before going thru firefighting school at Treasure Island in San Francisco. It was really interesting and we learned a lot from this tragedy.
I served as an AT in VF-11 assigned to the Forrestal during the first Gulf war, and our berthing space was the one directly below the initial explosion. As I understand it, VF-11 also had that berthing space during this catastrophe, and lost a good portion of it's enlisted base. Always felt a little creepy sleeping in that area. They never stopped driving that point home to stress safety, and for good reason. A lot of terrible but valuable lessons learned that day.
My berthing aboard the USS Independence CV62 (VA87) is the same as the Forrestal berthing that bore the blunt of the casualties. I thought about that when I worked nite shift and would sleep during the day.
Great video Ward! I get upset every time I hear that McCain rumor. Besides being a physical impossibility, it's a nasty swipe at a great American.
I'm so sick of the idiots still spreading that lie. There have been several who have commented on this video.
While no longer a fan of McCain in his later life it's totally stupid for one to claim this in any way was his fault.
After this disaster he volunteered to crossdeck to another carrier and squadron. He could have gone home but opted to stay.
He's also checked on people who were injured too
He also could have been released from the Hanoi Hilton shortly after being captured but refused unless men captured before him were released. Cost him 2+ years of solitary confinement with near daily torture sessions. A great American.
Thanks Mooch
Thank you for dispelling the McCain story. After having read Timmerbergs' book, it was easy to believe. Now I regret my naivete.
Also, Les Pauls look much cleaner without pickguards. Hopefully yours did not have the factory installed blemish from mounting hardware. Best wishes to you and thanks again.
No blemish.
I agree with 1 exception. A Black Les Paul needs that pickguard to resemble Les's Black Beauty. I had a 1980 Les Paul Deluxe with Pete Townsend's preferred mini humbuckers. It was my Black Beauty with that white pickguard it looked GLORIOUS!
Served on the Forrestal as a brownshirt with USMC VMFA531 on the 72-73 Med cruise. Spent many hours on the flight deck waiting for our F4’s to land. Especially dangerous during night ops.
I was on there with you, as an AME troubleshooter, working on the flight deck. Couldn't agree with you more about those night ops.
Mr Carroll, I'm a 20 navy man. Had the opportunity to serve under Admiral Anselmo and Admiral Christianson ("Ratchet") when they both were Captains on board their deep draft AOR. What a pleasure and honor. I navigated on board. Rubbed elbow with some amazing people in those years. Love your site. Thank you.
I will say the change of command ceremony was a site to see with the dignitaries present.
As a E-3 Airman aboard one of Forrestal’s sister ships, USS Ranger (CVA-61) 1972-1975, we watched the “film” “Trial by Fire” while attending flight deck firefighting training. And several more times over the next 15 years working aboard other carriers and retiring as a ABEC in 1986. It’s like anything else. Unfortunately, most flight deck and Naval Aviation rules and procedures are written in blood. Thank you for sharing this video.
My dad was a plank owner on the ranger. He loved the navy so much its my biggest regret not joining.
Thank you for making this video concise and with excellent information. God bless those sailors and airmen that gave the full measure. May they rest in peace.
Many thanks for this, was just reading the article on this n the latest Naval History magazine, fascinating incident.
Thanks for this. My cousin was killed on the Forrestal in that fire. I never knew exactly how until now. He was one of the crew in the sleeping compartment.
Thank you for setting the record straight for me, Ward. The story I had always heard was that the rocket launched off McCain's A4 and started the whole disaster. It doesn't matter whose plane the rocket came from, the incident still should not have happened
Well done. Intellectual honesty...
Sure it matters.Perhaps McCain should not have been flying to begin with.
I heard McCain wet started his A4 that set off the Zuni.
@@anthonycaruso8443Trumpers like to spread the lie that McCain caused the accident. This lie is, as Ward says, bogus.
@@anthonycaruso8443He wasn't flying. His A4 was parked.
Thanks for this video. Appreciate the info on the McCain rumors. A sad day for the Navy and those families affected.
Nothing in my 13 plus years at sea worried me more than a shipboard fire. There is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. The Forrestal fire video was a required damage control training video. - MMCM, USN (ret)
Great video, Sir. I always felt a connection to the Forrestal fire. My first ship (Independence) was the last of the Forrestal-class, my second CMC was on Forrestal as a fresh Airman Apprentice when the fre happened, and my last fire fighting refresher was at the Farrier fire fighting school. Not a lot of people appreciate how much that incident drove home the importance of fire fighting for the Navy, and especially flight deck fire fighting.
Hello Ward! Really enjoying all of your videos. Learned a ton about this incident from here. Your Dad's video one of my favorites, such cool stories including the "Board" questions to get to the Corps! I just saw the Snodgrass report is out, very sad indeed. I guess no matter how much experience, better get the checklist out of the way!
Thanks for debunking that McCain theory.
He didn't. McCain was showboating and wet started his engine cooking off bombs
I didn’t vote for Senator McCain in the presidential election of 2008, but I always respected him for both his military service and public service as a senator. The awful thing about conspiracy theories is that they don’t get debunked they just evolve and change to keep the theory alive. Everything is a conspiracy especially nowadays in the age of social media.
I notice the two replies were deleted. My co worker had a friend that was an eyewitness to this incident. McCain is
not innocent. When you have high ranking relatives in the military, you
are often protected.
@richardgarrett8087 OH stop your lying. Everyone has a family member that saw this and that on a tragic incident. Just stop already, you were lied too.
@@richardgarrett8087so you're lying and need to admit that. You friend has no proof and neither do you.
Thanks Ward for your description, including addressing the specious attack on senator McCain. The truth is we need as many creditable people sticking up for the truth because so many will believe lies that they want to believe. The notion that people would support a 5 time draft dodger over a person who survived the Hanoi Hilton, and refused release before others is troubling to me. I'm hoping our republic survives.
Then why was McCain shipped to the Oriskany, if he was not involved in the incident, guess it really helps daddy and granddaddy were admirals.
@@kurtarnold4050 Might be wanted to get to an operational ship ?
@@kurtarnold4050 AGREED! The fact that he had to get OFF the ship immediately tells you everything you need to know. I've read accounts on sailors on board, and they definitely blamed McCain at the time. He got white-washed. McCain was not a man of integrity.
@@eflanagan1921 How many other pilots left the ship that night? Tell me.
@@eflanagan1921 Pilots need to fly, can’t do that on a damaged ship. Kurtarnold1921 is a known nothing.🇺🇸
I was on a supporting destroyer, DD780, USS Stormes, as a boiler operator. I was able to get topside a few times to see first hand what was going on.
MOOCH thanks for clearing up the McCain deal. This was never his fault
Missile fired from nowhere APPEARS, then goes up, down, up down (jumping unevenly forward) and even though it's traveling at the speed of sound, the camera man was able to track it across the deck perfectly!! That's SO MUCH more believable than the camera panning in reaction to a BANG from a wet start and a Admiral having the film scratched to cover FOR HIS SON!!
@@mikeh8416oh look someone who feels the need to lie
@@joemcnulty6814 Oh look, someone who was in the navy shortly after this happened and HEARD THE TRUTH from his shipmates. McStain was QUICKLY removed from the ship after the incident to keep him from being unalived by the other sailors. His Admiral/Daddy had him protected.
Alex Nides was on board the Forrestal that day. I met Alex in Peachtree City, GA, when he attended out church potluck dinners on Wednesdays. He told me about his experience of the fire. Some of you may know he contributed a chapter to Terry Garlock's book, "Strength & Honor: America's Best in Vietnam." Dr. Nides passed away on Tuesday, May 17, 2016, in Tyrone, GA.
"Wanting to set a good tone" killed a lot of my shipmates during the Vietnam years. I was lucky to get away alive and not injured.
I knew a guy that I worked with who was a shipmate of yours on the Forrestal. Do you remember a Clarence Cadreau he was a engineering mate on the Forrestal went home to the States the day before the accident.
@@michaelbenjmitchell1 dId not know him. He was a lucky guy to have gotten off the "Forest Fire" alive.
Sadly sir, that mentality is still rife in the military, only now they’ve added all of this PC culture and awareness training for this and that, taking away time from men and women to train for their actual jobs. That is going to get a lot of people killed in the next big war that’s soon to come around the corner. I hope I’m wrong.
Thank you for clarifying that business about Senator McCain. I had no use for the man but I am happy to learn he had nothing to do with that fire.
Have known about this event for a while and heard the statistics many times but every time I hear the number of casualties I'm shocked. What a horror.
So well done Ward, thank you.
Also had significant Forrestal history - on board for her first two deployments in 1957 - to the Mediterranean and Operation Strikeback and then as Air Boss 1973-5
you may have seen me down there on the flight deck. I was an ame troubleshooter in va-81, I actually enjoyed working up there, but it was definitely not a place to be careless or complacent.
I was in a US2C ,delta pattern ,when this explosion occurred, we were waiting to come aboard immediately after the Alpha strike launched. Our aircraft ,a VC5 det cubi was a COD MISSION, OUR. AIRCRAFT WAS ACTUALLY MOVED SIDEWAYS THRU THE AIR WHEN THE FIRST EXPLOSION OCCURED, THERE WAS NOTHING BUT TOTAL CONFUSION ON ALL AIR CHANNELS AND FROM OTHER CARRIERS OPERATING IN THE AREA. WE BINGOIED TO DANANG
That brings up an interesting point. I realize you were on a COD; but where do the air wing planes that were already airborne divert to? Was there even a plan in place in the event that the carrier became unusable?
@@thirdgengta They would either go to a Carrier on Yankee or Dixie Station. I'm sure alternative divert fields are briefed prior to take off. Feet Dry The Marines had a huge airbase in DaNang and the Air Force had Ton Son Nhut AB near Saigon they could have also went to fuel permitting Korat AB Thailand, NAS Cubi Point, Andersen AB Guam.
Thank You Ward for a honest and analytical evaluation of the disaster.
The most significant lesson learned-DO NOT- bypass safety procedures!
"Something is wrong with our ships" was in fact doing just that.
Safety regulations are written in blood....
The Forrestal's captain was never informed of the changes in protocol. Probably he would not have approved.
@@alantoon5708 CAG responibility
@@johnmarlin4661 The Authority to deviate from safety protocols and steps couldn't have come from CAG or The CO.
Safety procedures were skipped due to extreme fatigue in the crew and pressure from command to show-off.
I read the Forrestal report.
Crew fatigue was discussed in the very last paragraph of the report and then completely ignored by everyone.
Thanks Ward for the info. What a horrible & unfortunate incident.