@@3dxyz412 it’s impossible to get perfect because there’s a lot of variables... So I always calibrate my sensor so the Current (Amps) & mAh Used display are slightly higher than actual. This is the safest way to do it. With a couple tries you can usually get it within 5% of actual. Basic Process: Fully Charge a Pack, Fly/Drain it, Note the mAh Used, then Charge the pack & Note the mAh Hours Charged. The difference between the Used & Charged is what needs to be calibrated. Oscar Liang has a good write up in the Calibration Process with the calculation used to set the amount. Note: Also check your Voltage Readings. This is easy & usually pretty accurate, but Current (Amps) always needs to be checked & set.
@@3dxyz412 Every single quad current sensor I've measured has been noticeably out, usually ~10-20% - some worse than others (iflight ESC's especially). The answer is to calibrate your quad so that it generally slightly OVER reads so that you always 'think' you've used a little more than you actually have & to account for Internal resistance losses. If you don't have access to an accurate meter you can 'calibrate' it to what your lipo charger recharges - fly a pack, note the mAh reading, charge, note the mAh reading then adjust current calibration up/down until readings are fairly close. Note charging a battery ALWAYS adds more energy to the pack than you discharge.. This also assumes your charger is accurate which is another story XD
Funny after watching this video this question came up on my mind and I was just about to ask about it here, because that's quite often my main source of information in terms of how much battery I have left. I honestly was pretty sure this measurment is very accurate. Thanks for that advise, now I'll do some tests, especially now when I'm flyng iFlight quad. Thanks guys!
@@Filipniak yea, most FC/ESC stacks actually give you a calibration number to use in BF; but most people probably never even noticed it, and honestly for most people super accurate Current readings isn’t that important. If you do longer-range flights, and/or use Li-Ion packs, it’s always best to do some calibration checks yourself. Having an accurate number will help you avoid running out of battery, or pulling too much current & frying the battery! Note: Though Current & mAh Used figures are helpful guides, it’s also extremely important to watch Per Cell Voltage because you can judge the true health of the battery by watching the Voltage. Over time batteries get weaker & lose capacity, so if you only focus on mAh Used as a fuel gauge you might get an unpleasant surprise one day!
My friend is making his own Li-Ion packs from single 21700 battery cells that he is configuring according to his needs for his long range drone. Good thing about it is he can adjust the cell pack shape for the particular drone as he needs and also he can adjust the capacity based on how long he needs to fly...
I make my own 4S Li-Ion packs out of Murata 18650's. Slightly heavier than LiPo 4S but I can fly my 4" with a naked gopro for 25 minutes on a good day. I fly cinematic/exploration and long range so it's perfect for me. 6S Li-Ion on a 7" is absolutely bonkers, I think I got up to 40 minutes in one test flight.. with some juice to spare.
Congrats on the 300k subs, jb. 🎉 16:17 I don't quite agree with your choices. Most Li-Ion packs (4 or 6S1P) have a max discharge rate of 30-40A, depending on if they're using 18650s or 21700s. So even if you never exceed ~60% throttle, you will still hit the 30/40A rating of the battery (meaning that the battery gets hot and damaged). I've noticed that on my 7" when I when I exceed about 50% throttle the battery gets hot. Which is why I only recommend using LiIon packs on very efficient multicopters (like the Rekon line of quads) or on fixed wing aircraft
@@saturn_fpv I had issues on a rekon 6, with I3 (no GoPro) on a geprc 3000mah 6s pack with original 2blade props. I think I used the pack before about 20 times -> it could’ve been also wear …
3000mah shows it was a straight 6s1p arrangement, yes tbat is gonna be problematic. 6s2p is the minimum I would want in combination with 7in or 10inch quads. I was very impressed with a 10in using 3115 980kv motors with 6s2p. If built for a pair of 4s2p pacls in series for 8s2p the thing would have outright ripped. That is one of places I left off when I backed off of building 4 years ago
I had a Auline 3000mA 4S for my long range Roma L5 and I can get the 2.5 after 25 to 30 min of flight. I think Li-Ion will work different if the drone pulls less current than average 5" free style drone.
I have built a number of Li-ion batteries and the problem with the sag on a punch out is the thickness of the wires/connectors that are used, in your batteries case I would think it is flat metal plates spot welded to the batteries and the square area of those plates will make a difference eg. if they have used 10mm wide by 0.15 thick that equals a 1.5mm square wire. To do 20 amps the wire needs to be around 1.84 sq mm. To do 40 amps the square are is 7.9mm. Clearly difficult to achieve. If people want to build their own my recommendation is to use wires soldered to the battery not the flat plates with spot welding.
When I was a teen in need of money, like 10 years ago, I was making custom LI-ON battery packs like that for forum members from FPV/RC community. But then one guy crashed hard and the whole thing caught on fire and I've stopped doing this to not get myself in some legal trouble. Before that I had plane people tell me they would not need to land to change the battery anymore with my li-on battery and they could fly so long they would land because they get bored or their legs start to hurt, the flight time for planes was like 2-3x longer. I was testing those to be used for FPV quadcopters as well and the results were good for non-racing uses but then I stopped because of the above.
Lastly. Charge rates. 18650s do not want to see more than a 1C charge rate, some cells even listed .5C. So if you drain a Lithium Ion expect a solid hour or more on the charger to get it back up to full voltage. Even storage is gonna take around 45 min from 2.8-3v
One is a lipo and the other a lion. You keep referring to the GepRC as a lipo I'll include two time stamps. The first 0:41 clearly shows the GepRC has 18650 and is lithium Ion as its marked Lion The second 1:53 is Bardwell making the slip of calling the lion a lipo. Its an easy slip to make and I expect later in the video this won't happen but I had already noticed this slip a few times by the 1:53 point. Prompting this note.
If your amp reading is somewhat right, you are pulling beyond 100A from a 2P configuration, no 18650 cell is rated at or above 50A. Long range FPV usually does not exceed those ratings so it makes way more sense there.
11:30 Although the lion battery is sagging to a lower voltage, it is still less of a sag than a typical lipo if you consider the percent of the usable voltage ranges.
Current draw needs to balanced with battery capacity to get the discharge c rate sensible with lion, thats all. They don't have the ability to dump the same kinds of current as lipos, at least, 18650 sized lions dont. There are some bigger lions that can, but you'll have to go back to 4s.
I use Li-Ion cells in my big EDF jets ;) You can compensate for the voltage drop, by adding more cells (7S instead of 6S, plus a ESC that will handle that), or getting a 15% higher KV motors.
There is a certain technique when flying li-ion packs. You want to do small smooth movements on the sticks. I've been able to fly for a good 2 miles on low voltage by keeping the throttle at a set position and making elevation changes with pitch changes. If you try to do aggressive punch outs or quick tight turns you'll just crash. It's better to do long , smooth lines with li-ion.
I agree dude, having made about four packs of 6S. I lost a quad listening to Bardwell 2.5v suggestion. (much love to Bardwell and his awesome work) The quad I lost went from 2.65v to zero in seconds. I think 3v to 2.9v is a safer landing threshold. I start coming home at about 3.35v, maybe sooner, depending on how far I've gone.
@@DFEUERMAN yea, I always try to land before 3v, I save 3-2.5v for emergencies only. (Though I have drained them right down below 2v in one of my tests. Haha!)
@@GiantAntCowboy Haha, you're lucky the FC voltage regulator was able to handle the low battery voltage. (or did the FC power off?) My quad FC shut off over a cove of water. But the quad was so beat up, I don't miss it much. ✌️🪦 I think the 2.5v max discharge spec that JB keeps mentioning is intended for very light and slow loads like an LED flashlight, not for quadcopters.
@@DFEUERMAN Yea, watch the end of this test video, ruclips.net/video/gxSfD6PH1P0/видео.html I pushed it as far as it would go… was an awesome test. 🏔️The quad actually survived, but was retired after this test. I used the parts for another build. However what’s really crazy is that I still use this battery pack years later to power my goggles! Molicel P42a cells are amazing, I push them well beyond their limits often.
Totally a li-ion guy. Chill tours and and videography. But I do love a good punchy session. Hypothetically, I didn’t see fitted packs when I looked for them at the time
I build electric skateboards and scooters 😉 just getting into drones. Have a dji mini 3 pro but saw those supernova motors and had to have a set. So ordered the 2207 1980kv and going for a speedybee master 5 v2 and f7 stack 😁 i think the equal liion would be heavier but last longer in life. Each has their place 😁 beautiful place and keep the great videos coming
I maxed out my ardupilot 6" to 2.233 v/cell before bringing it down from poshold running (hover test only) for 32min. on a homemade 3s battery using 21700 lion cells.
I assume the reason you say that you should pick a Li-ion pack in the same weight range as the LiPo pack is to to account for the lower discharge rating of the Li-Ion? As in: If you don't need extended flight times, don't attempt to reduce weight by going with a Li-ion pack half the weight of the Li-po in an attempt to reduce the weight but keep the same mAh.
I wonder if there is a way to increase the current carrying capabilities to compensate for the voltage drop, but I imagine this would involve the use of some beefy capacitors given the currents we are dealing with when throttling at full power, even if only for a brief time.
I built an ultra light 5 inch that can pull 6amps when cruising And the voltage sag is almost non existent. When using lithium ion. This is because at %15 battery, the cells can still provide more than 5 amps. You can harness more out of a li-ion cell with a less piwer hungry quad. But you can double the c rating and amp output by putting it in parallel. 2s6p batteries is basically two 6s battery in parallel. So if you have 21700 baterry rated for 25a, at 2p setup you get 50a. At the cost of double the weight ofcourse.
One is a 3500mah Lithium Polymer battery The other is a 6000mah Lithium ION battery. Two different chemistrys The 6000mah is claiming to use authentic Sony VTC6 18650`s cells
Why no Current/Amp Draw on the OSD? Im curious to see how many Amps this thing is pushing out during those full throttle vertical runs with the fully charged battery. It really did get up there quick and sounded as powerful as Lipo just by ear and how fast it punched up.. Im sure when the Li-ion cells get even better they will have all the advantagesbut without all the slight disadvantages vs a LiPo Battery Pack right now. Also, how is the charging time on this pack? Can it be charged at 1C or maybe even higher?
The 6000mAh Geprc pack has a maximum charge rate of 5A or 0.83C. Most of the 18650 and 21700 cells have a recommended charge rate of 1C or less. Some can go higher, but they will get very hot and should use a charger with over temperature cutoff.
Quick note: You should be measuring wh under flight load not mAh to measure energy. mAh is not unit to measure energy. Thanks to the electric car industry today we have great and cheap Li-Ion cells available.
The VTC6 cells in the pack are not high discharge 18650 li-ion. Try a true high discharge li-ion such as Molicel p28a slightly lower capacity but more than double the discharge current.
Used to be I could take a 6s2p 18650 pack out and get nearly 6-7 minutes of cruising flying out of a 7in or 10in build. 3.0v is the time to be close to home to land while 2.8 is for something wrong and you need another minute to land due to some unexpected nonsense.
You could potentially make this battery yourself pretty easily, for closer to $80 (just for the cells). I assume that they take six pairs that are in parallel, then put each pair in series, connecting your balance lead to the positive of each pair. You could even use the Samsung 30Q cell and get it done for closer to $60.
Nice to see Bardwell touch on Li-Ion packs. I’ve been flying them exclusively on my 7” quad for years & here’s some additional thoughts: *Warning* Not a Popular Opinion, but Soldered packs perform much better than Spot Welded Packs. The reason: Welding requires the use of metals with High Resistance. Nickel is generally used, but Copper is 4x better at conducting electricity, so you get less sag & batteries stay cooler/last longer. Unfortunately all retail packs use thin nickel strips, so you’ll have to DIY to have copper packs. DIY isn’t hard but takes some basic knowledge & patience so you don’t overheat things… I’ve thought about doing a comparison but retail packs are 2x as expensive as DIY packs. For those curious; here’s a super stressful Li-ion tests in the mountains: ruclips.net/video/gxSfD6PH1P0/видео.html And here’s a very detailed comparison of various li-Ion setups: ruclips.net/video/rynkx_OYTFI/видео.html Definitely a great “tool in the bag!”
When soldering Li-ion cells you need to be very careful. They're particularly sensitive to heat so you need a good iron with a large tip. The surface of the cells also needs to be prepped well. I would use very high grit sandpaper (1000+) or scotch brite then immediately coat with flux. You also need to solder very quickly, not more than a couple of seconds. -HereComesWhitey ;)
Sony VTC5D seemed to be the best cell available. Gave up some capacity but gained back amperage available. Tried some larger dimention "high amp" batteries and they proved not worth it.
@@PhonesandDronesRepair hey bud, 100% accurate. Prep & Time are key. It’s usually takes my two rounds of soldering. Soldered a dozen packs and all turned out great. Glad you mentored this, people must do research and use caution. cheers!
This test seems to show more the difference in C rating between the packs. 'Most' Li-Ion cells won't have the C rating of LiPo, because the Li-Ion cells are not aimed at a specific markets demands, but at general market usage - the manufacturer doesn't know when the cell is rolling down the production line if it's going to end up in a Quad, an EV, a Laptop, a Power Bank or a Torch, so they make them to have good performance in most devices. The major difference between Li-Ion and LiPo, is the cells are laid flat and the heavy metal case discarded in LiPo's. (Yes, there's some packs that use a different material for the flexible plates the charge spread out on, and there's plenty that use exactly the same chemistry as the Li-Ion) So when the Li-Ion are pushed beyong thier discharge voltage, they're doing the exact same damage to the cells, the cells are just less likely to pop in flight as they're held in a metal shell that doesn't stretch or crack open until much higher loads then the LiPo's. This is also why Li-Pol's are much more violent once they do reach the pressure that forces open the metal shell. While this test is fun to watch, it really doesn't deal with the Why of each types creation and market targeted applications. LiPo's exist because Phone Manufacturers wanted lighter batteries that could fit in thinner devices. Quad pilots and maunfacturers recognised the advantage of the form factor for thier use, and have taken advantage of the massive consumer demand for cell phones and the resulting push to make better batteries with higher performance. Regardless of the brand on the packaging, there's only a limited number of Battery Cell Manufacturing Plants around the world, and all a 'Drone battery manufacturer' does is buy up cells according to performance specification, assemble a pack and send them to retailers. That difference, between a Market Targeted Product, and a Generalised Market Product, is what we see here in C-rating and Area Under The Graph. Where the Li-Ion really has an advantage for electric flight, is for Wings, where it's easier to keep the center of mass ahead of the center of pressure if the cells are heavier, and where the lower C rating isn't such an issue for anything less then EDF's and Pylon Racers - if you've got anything that says 'Park Fly' on the box, a Li-Ion will save you money and fly longer, just a little slower at the top end. @Joshua - How about a comparison between Li-Ion packs, and LiFePO4 packs? The 4WD, Camping, and Solar sectors are driving the uptake of LiFePO4, but the only details availble for C rating on those appears to be how fast they can be charged, and how much more deeply they can be discharged without damage. Some 18650 LiFePO4 batteries are out to 3600mAH per Cell.
Nice I will use lion in 2 scenarios: 1Long range mauntaine cruising with simple freestyle, dives, loops ets.... 2 car chase at a track Both with 7 inch What do you think about that?
I stopped using LiPo batteries. I fly long-range (from 5-inch to 10-inch quads) with current Li-ion batteries, such as those with 45 amps per cell, I no longer need LiPos.
For someone like myself who's still new to FPV (about 6months now) I fly 5" and sticky for cinematic and filming purposes. Do you have a recommendation on which battery to use and how long it can last? I'm currently using 6s 2200mAh Lipos and I get about 12-15min but would love to use something that can go for as long as possible.
Welp. Li-ion may not deliver as much current but rather than a mere disadvantage i see it as having a higher skill ceiling for drone racing. Li-po feel like a cheat. Li-ion gives a driving more like a car with a real engine and flywheel, way more predictable. Hope Li-ion get's preffered, because is way more fun to watch and more fun to drive.
nope because that capacitor is able to draw massive amounts of current to recharge. i tested it. makes no difference. what would make a difference is, if you can electrically decouple the capacitor from the pack and have a small PCB onboard charger which limits the current going in the capacitor until its fully charged and same PCB will activate it ONLY on full throttle punches. but to make it useful you need to have a huge capacitor on your quad. bigger than the quad itself i think. interesting idea for sure though... 🤔👍
@@techstuff6829 Sounds like a good idea initially but in reality its not so great. Li-Ion cells should be used to a lower voltage to get the full capacity. If in parallel with a lipo then the lowest safe voltage of the lipo becomes limiting. So then you might aswell go with a higher capacity lipo.
I'm not sure I trust the 15C/30C rating stamped on that pack... Sony VTC6 cells are rated to 15A and are 3000 mAh. If running six parallel pairs in series, you'd double your mAh and amp rating. So if you convert to amp hours, and divide 30A by 6 Ah, you get a whopping 5C. Where are they getting 15/30?
I just build li-on battery for long range on samsung 21700 50S cells, they are better than 18650 vtc6 imo, higher energy density and cheaper, at only 5A less discharge rating
VTC5D was where I went for better discharge rates. Tried single 4200-4800 range high discharge 21700s long ago and didnt like them, sagged way sooner than the 6s2p 18650s that were 2000mah doubled for a 4k mah pack.
I've been chasing drift cars this summer, and often I really don't need a lot of punch but it would be nice do double my battery capacity! Could some changes to the throttle curve help make up for the lack of punch? Just to reduce the lag a bit if I find myself in trouble so I don't smash into a car or asphalt.
For low current draw ones yes. A plane that draws a lot of current - no. Same with quads. Great for long range cruising but crap for racing or freestyle.
I feel like you should have mentioned the way amp draw can affect the battery. Its very easy with a normal quad to over draw from Li-Ion packs and damage them. Much harder on a Lipo since the amp draw they can consistently deliver is so much higher. If you put the OSD element on with a normal pack you can see how much you're drawing and decide if a li-ion pack would work. You want it to be comfortably less than the max discharge rate of the pack to account for tolerance.
If you are asking what kind of battery you should use to power your charger while charging lipos on the field then you should get whichever you can buy for best capacity/price ratio.
i accidentally overcharged a rc battery in 2011 and it literally flamed! and it was a hard fire to put out, and smelled horrible too. ....but, this killing-it by under volt, is there physical damage also? i have brought back old phone batteries from under volt using a pulse voltage so their charger will then recognise them again...
i am using semi solid state packs for my electric PPG and so far they are ok but i feel more voltage sag than with a lipo pack if i try to fly high. also the battery gets extremely hot. having more capacity in a less weight and smaller pack definitely seems to have its price and it might not be the "magic battery" we all waiting for. its still nice. but from that 24s 30Ah battery i can only use around 22-23Ah maximum. over 7ah are just gone due to heat
Vtc6 18650 isn’t that great for fpv flying, samsung 40t 21700 is way better. And when cell volt reaches 2.5(under load) it is nearly dead and below that you won’t get much power because the voltage is just too low for the motor. I fly my chimera 7 with 6s2p 21700 and I can easily get 30+min cruise time and land with 3v/cell. 6s2p 40t has 120amp burst so I can push throttle like I’m using lipo but just less power because of the voltage sag.
Hello Mr. Bardwell, Just a newbie question, Planning to buy Nazgul Evoque5 v3, can I onset use Lithium Ion Batt packs on it? or do I need to change some hardware plus the settings? btw love the content! much love from the Phillippines
Ok...just thinking here...what about a combination of a Lipo and a LI-ion pack in series vs. parallel or a combination of cell types in a single pack to complement their strength to the other's weaknesses? You heard it here first?
Nope, It has been done, but maybe not in the high current draws we see. "I am running a 36S LiPo with 43S LiFePo4 for 18 months with no issues." as a power bank...yes. " " As long as you make sure the voltage ranges and charge/discharge rates are within the safe limits for both batteries, you are good. You will not get good balance (i.e. the discharges will be neither balanced per pack nor consistent across the discharge curve) but you will get significantly more energy?" Huh, I wonder if heavy duty balance leads connected to one another of the differing pack might help maintain cell balances.
Id love a good long range recommendation form my Chimara pro v2... Im having trouble picking a battery. On top of that I get a few hundred yards across a soy bean field and the video starts cutting out.. DJI O3
Question, please help: I got a 6S LiIon Pack, Just Like in the video. But one of the cells is loosing voltage quickly. Can I remove the damaged cell safely? 5S and a little lighter would even be better I think.
Nice video jb. What are the standard voltages for lithium ion batteries? Same as lipo? Minus discharge? For instance.. Full voltage: 4.2 and storage: 3.8? And can run them down let’s say 3.0? If you run it like that is this likely to generate reliability or is this considered abusing it?
IMPORTANT: Make sure to calibrate your Current Sensor. The Amp reading is often inaccurate and it’s a very important metric when using Li-Ion packs.
How accurate is accurate? Which brand of sensor is the most accurate?
@@3dxyz412 it’s impossible to get perfect because there’s a lot of variables... So I always calibrate my sensor so the Current (Amps) & mAh Used display are slightly higher than actual. This is the safest way to do it.
With a couple tries you can usually get it within 5% of actual.
Basic Process: Fully Charge a Pack, Fly/Drain it, Note the mAh Used, then Charge the pack & Note the mAh Hours Charged. The difference between the Used & Charged is what needs to be calibrated.
Oscar Liang has a good write up in the Calibration Process with the calculation used to set the amount.
Note: Also check your Voltage Readings. This is easy & usually pretty accurate, but Current (Amps) always needs to be checked & set.
@@3dxyz412 Every single quad current sensor I've measured has been noticeably out, usually ~10-20% - some worse than others (iflight ESC's especially). The answer is to calibrate your quad so that it generally slightly OVER reads so that you always 'think' you've used a little more than you actually have & to account for Internal resistance losses. If you don't have access to an accurate meter you can 'calibrate' it to what your lipo charger recharges - fly a pack, note the mAh reading, charge, note the mAh reading then adjust current calibration up/down until readings are fairly close. Note charging a battery ALWAYS adds more energy to the pack than you discharge.. This also assumes your charger is accurate which is another story XD
Funny after watching this video this question came up on my mind and I was just about to ask about it here, because that's quite often my main source of information in terms of how much battery I have left. I honestly was pretty sure this measurment is very accurate. Thanks for that advise, now I'll do some tests, especially now when I'm flyng iFlight quad. Thanks guys!
@@Filipniak yea, most FC/ESC stacks actually give you a calibration number to use in BF; but most people probably never even noticed it, and honestly for most people super accurate Current readings isn’t that important.
If you do longer-range flights, and/or use Li-Ion packs, it’s always best to do some calibration checks yourself. Having an accurate number will help you avoid running out of battery, or pulling too much current & frying the battery!
Note: Though Current & mAh Used figures are helpful guides, it’s also extremely important to watch Per Cell Voltage because you can judge the true health of the battery by watching the Voltage.
Over time batteries get weaker & lose capacity, so if you only focus on mAh Used as a fuel gauge you might get an unpleasant surprise one day!
Li-ion has been the nr.1 choice for long range rigs for years.
My friend is making his own Li-Ion packs from single 21700 battery cells that he is configuring according to his needs for his long range drone. Good thing about it is he can adjust the cell pack shape for the particular drone as he needs and also he can adjust the capacity based on how long he needs to fly...
I make my own 4S Li-Ion packs out of Murata 18650's. Slightly heavier than LiPo 4S but I can fly my 4" with a naked gopro for 25 minutes on a good day. I fly cinematic/exploration and long range so it's perfect for me. 6S Li-Ion on a 7" is absolutely bonkers, I think I got up to 40 minutes in one test flight.. with some juice to spare.
Congrats on the 300k subs, jb. 🎉
16:17 I don't quite agree with your choices. Most Li-Ion packs (4 or 6S1P) have a max discharge rate of 30-40A, depending on if they're using 18650s or 21700s. So even if you never exceed ~60% throttle, you will still hit the 30/40A rating of the battery (meaning that the battery gets hot and damaged).
I've noticed that on my 7" when I when I exceed about 50% throttle the battery gets hot. Which is why I only recommend using LiIon packs on very efficient multicopters (like the Rekon line of quads) or on fixed wing aircraft
A “popped” one about a year ago, be careful 😉
8s FTW
@MJ-bj1gn This is a 2P pack, that's why double the amp draw is possible.
@@saturn_fpv I had issues on a rekon 6, with I3 (no GoPro) on a geprc 3000mah 6s pack with original 2blade props. I think I used the pack before about 20 times -> it could’ve been also wear …
3000mah shows it was a straight 6s1p arrangement, yes tbat is gonna be problematic. 6s2p is the minimum I would want in combination with 7in or 10inch quads. I was very impressed with a 10in using 3115 980kv motors with 6s2p.
If built for a pair of 4s2p pacls in series for 8s2p the thing would have outright ripped. That is one of places I left off when I backed off of building 4 years ago
Thank you for signing that battery, Man 🥰🗽
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I’m convinced that Bardwell never ages 🎉 been watching for years! Keep up the good work man 😎
He definitely will if you refuse to even click the affiliate links.
Can't say the same for that wooden gate structure.
I had a Auline 3000mA 4S for my long range Roma L5 and I can get the 2.5 after 25 to 30 min of flight. I think Li-Ion will work different if the drone pulls less current than average 5" free style drone.
I have those in 6S they are very good.
You're a brave man. I won't even punch out my 6" on molicel 6S packs. It's not hard at all to hit 60-70 amps
I really like this guy because he knows what expensive is .
Alright! I'm gonna learn something today!
I have built a number of Li-ion batteries and the problem with the sag on a punch out is the thickness of the wires/connectors that are used, in your batteries case I would think it is flat metal plates spot welded to the batteries and the square area of those plates will make a difference eg. if they have used 10mm wide by 0.15 thick that equals a 1.5mm square wire. To do 20 amps the wire needs to be around 1.84 sq mm. To do 40 amps the square are is 7.9mm. Clearly difficult to achieve. If people want to build their own my recommendation is to use wires soldered to the battery not the flat plates with spot welding.
Another option is copper sheet spot welded with nickel on the terminals. Copper is over 4x as conductive as the usual nickel strip used.
Now test a LiFePo4 for the funsies!
Generally a comparison of energy density (Wh/kg) and C discharge rating comparison would be so nice!
When I was a teen in need of money, like 10 years ago, I was making custom LI-ON battery packs like that for forum members from FPV/RC community.
But then one guy crashed hard and the whole thing caught on fire and I've stopped doing this to not get myself in some legal trouble.
Before that I had plane people tell me they would not need to land to change the battery anymore with my li-on battery and they could fly so long they would land because they get bored or their legs start to hurt, the flight time for planes was like 2-3x longer.
I was testing those to be used for FPV quadcopters as well and the results were good for non-racing uses but then I stopped because of the above.
Lastly.
Charge rates. 18650s do not want to see more than a 1C charge rate, some cells even listed .5C. So if you drain a Lithium Ion expect a solid hour or more on the charger to get it back up to full voltage. Even storage is gonna take around 45 min from 2.8-3v
One is a lipo and the other a lion. You keep referring to the GepRC as a lipo I'll include two time stamps.
The first 0:41 clearly shows the GepRC has 18650 and is lithium Ion as its marked Lion
The second 1:53 is Bardwell making the slip of calling the lion a lipo.
Its an easy slip to make and I expect later in the video this won't happen but I had already noticed this slip a few times by the 1:53 point. Prompting this note.
Indeed. I kept going back to the biginning out of confusion.
My first and second builds were based on liIon batteries. But have since moved to lipo packs
If your amp reading is somewhat right, you are pulling beyond 100A from a 2P configuration, no 18650 cell is rated at or above 50A. Long range FPV usually does not exceed those ratings so it makes way more sense there.
Ah, this must be the reason why DJI Avata has twice the battery efficiency than DJI FPV drone. Great to finally understand it, thanks JB!
Omg you are alive! 😂
Well, he said he will be on a road trip and would not upload for some time. No surprise.
Listen someone has to give the man trouble. I know I was just joking around@@musicvr3368
AWESOME AWARD granted!
Best explanation of the difference I have ever seen. Thanks!
I am using the home made 21700 lion pack on a 7 inch tricopter.
It is cooll :D
If you are gentle it can fly
Could've included amp draw on osd after calibration to get an idea of c rate.
11:30
Although the lion battery is sagging to a lower voltage, it is still less of a sag than a typical lipo if you consider the percent of the usable voltage ranges.
Current draw needs to balanced with battery capacity to get the discharge c rate sensible with lion, thats all. They don't have the ability to dump the same kinds of current as lipos, at least, 18650 sized lions dont. There are some bigger lions that can, but you'll have to go back to 4s.
I use Li-Ion cells in my big EDF jets ;)
You can compensate for the voltage drop, by adding more cells (7S instead of 6S, plus a ESC that will handle that), or getting a 15% higher KV motors.
There is a certain technique when flying li-ion packs. You want to do small smooth movements on the sticks. I've been able to fly for a good 2 miles on low voltage by keeping the throttle at a set position and making elevation changes with pitch changes. If you try to do aggressive punch outs or quick tight turns you'll just crash. It's better to do long , smooth lines with li-ion.
Ive noticed once you drop below 3volts it starts dropping a lot faster. I try to land around 3v per cell or just below it on lion
Yea agreed. I’ve found that once it’s at 3v per cell you’ve used 90% of the pack & from there it’s drops very quick.
I agree dude, having made about four packs of 6S. I lost a quad listening to Bardwell 2.5v suggestion. (much love to Bardwell and his awesome work) The quad I lost went from 2.65v to zero in seconds. I think 3v to 2.9v is a safer landing threshold. I start coming home at about 3.35v, maybe sooner, depending on how far I've gone.
@@DFEUERMAN yea, I always try to land before 3v, I save 3-2.5v for emergencies only. (Though I have drained them right down below 2v in one of my tests. Haha!)
@@GiantAntCowboy Haha, you're lucky the FC voltage regulator was able to handle the low battery voltage. (or did the FC power off?) My quad FC shut off over a cove of water. But the quad was so beat up, I don't miss it much. ✌️🪦
I think the 2.5v max discharge spec that JB keeps mentioning is intended for very light and slow loads like an LED flashlight, not for quadcopters.
@@DFEUERMAN Yea, watch the end of this test video, ruclips.net/video/gxSfD6PH1P0/видео.html
I pushed it as far as it would go… was an awesome test. 🏔️The quad actually survived, but was retired after this test. I used the parts for another build. However what’s really crazy is that I still use this battery pack years later to power my goggles!
Molicel P42a cells are amazing, I push them well beyond their limits often.
Totally a li-ion guy. Chill tours and and videography. But I do love a good punchy session. Hypothetically, I didn’t see fitted packs when I looked for them at the time
Have like 50 lishen 21700 cells left from building my ebike pack ,definitely gonna build a few packs
Also remember 18650 charge time might be 3x more than a Lipo battery
Basically the Li-ion cell has a lower C rating than that of the Lipo, That's why there was voltage drop.
Awesome flying and review, Joshua! 😃
Thanks for all the info!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
2.2v is low cut off for liion (good cell) molicel p42a 😁 but like 20a per cell output. So need more in parallel to match motor and esc.
I build electric skateboards and scooters 😉 just getting into drones. Have a dji mini 3 pro but saw those supernova motors and had to have a set. So ordered the 2207 1980kv and going for a speedybee master 5 v2 and f7 stack 😁 i think the equal liion would be heavier but last longer in life. Each has their place 😁 beautiful place and keep the great videos coming
I maxed out my ardupilot 6" to 2.233 v/cell before bringing it down from poshold running (hover test only) for 32min. on a homemade 3s battery using 21700 lion cells.
Planes and wings are were it's at for Li-ion period
I assume the reason you say that you should pick a Li-ion pack in the same weight range as the LiPo pack is to to account for the lower discharge rating of the Li-Ion? As in: If you don't need extended flight times, don't attempt to reduce weight by going with a Li-ion pack half the weight of the Li-po in an attempt to reduce the weight but keep the same mAh.
I wonder if there is a way to increase the current carrying capabilities to compensate for the voltage drop, but I imagine this would involve the use of some beefy capacitors given the currents we are dealing with when throttling at full power, even if only for a brief time.
"this area under the curve" I got ptsd for a moment. Im still taking my engineering course and I heard something way too familiar
I built an ultra light 5 inch that can pull 6amps when cruising And the voltage sag is almost non existent. When using lithium ion. This is because at %15 battery, the cells can still provide more than 5 amps. You can harness more out of a li-ion cell with a less piwer hungry quad. But you can double the c rating and amp output by putting it in parallel. 2s6p batteries is basically two 6s battery in parallel. So if you have 21700 baterry rated for 25a, at 2p setup you get 50a. At the cost of double the weight ofcourse.
0:07 Lion not lipo as said. We understand it anyway though :)
I noticed this too 😁 one is liion n one is lipo 😉
UpgradeEnergy makes great Li-ions for long range, check out the Dark Lithium or the Botgrinder LongRange Batt
I think lithium-ion is also not as picky about state of charge in storage. More usage cycles in that sense.
One is a 3500mah Lithium Polymer battery
The other is a 6000mah Lithium ION battery.
Two different chemistrys
The 6000mah is claiming to use authentic Sony VTC6 18650`s cells
I charged up my lithium pack for my GEPRC Croc 5 today and just wondered about this.
Why no Current/Amp Draw on the OSD? Im curious to see how many Amps this thing is pushing out during those full throttle vertical runs with the fully charged battery. It really did get up there quick and sounded as powerful as Lipo just by ear and how fast it punched up..
Im sure when the Li-ion cells get even better they will have all the advantagesbut without all the slight disadvantages vs a LiPo Battery Pack right now.
Also, how is the charging time on this pack? Can it be charged at 1C or maybe even higher?
The 6000mAh Geprc pack has a maximum charge rate of 5A or 0.83C.
Most of the 18650 and 21700 cells have a recommended charge rate of 1C or less. Some can go higher, but they will get very hot and should use a charger with over temperature cutoff.
Quick note: You should be measuring wh under flight load not mAh to measure energy. mAh is not unit to measure energy. Thanks to the electric car industry today we have great and cheap Li-Ion cells available.
So. For long range use 18650 or 21700 cells.. And keep it low on the throttle (no punching if not needed).. They are not build for the current..
The VTC6 cells in the pack are not high discharge 18650 li-ion. Try a true high discharge li-ion such as Molicel p28a slightly lower capacity but more than double the discharge current.
Used to be I could take a 6s2p 18650 pack out and get nearly 6-7 minutes of cruising flying out of a 7in or 10in build. 3.0v is the time to be close to home to land while 2.8 is for something wrong and you need another minute to land due to some unexpected nonsense.
You could potentially make this battery yourself pretty easily, for closer to $80 (just for the cells). I assume that they take six pairs that are in parallel, then put each pair in series, connecting your balance lead to the positive of each pair. You could even use the Samsung 30Q cell and get it done for closer to $60.
Nice to see Bardwell touch on Li-Ion packs. I’ve been flying them exclusively on my 7” quad for years & here’s some additional thoughts:
*Warning* Not a Popular Opinion, but Soldered packs perform much better than Spot Welded Packs. The reason: Welding requires the use of metals with High Resistance. Nickel is generally used, but Copper is 4x better at conducting electricity, so you get less sag & batteries stay cooler/last longer.
Unfortunately all retail packs use thin nickel strips, so you’ll have to DIY to have copper packs. DIY isn’t hard but takes some basic knowledge & patience so you don’t overheat things…
I’ve thought about doing a comparison but retail packs are 2x as expensive as DIY packs.
For those curious; here’s a super stressful Li-ion tests in the mountains:
ruclips.net/video/gxSfD6PH1P0/видео.html
And here’s a very detailed comparison of various li-Ion setups:
ruclips.net/video/rynkx_OYTFI/видео.html
Definitely a great “tool in the bag!”
When soldering Li-ion cells you need to be very careful. They're particularly sensitive to heat so you need a good iron with a large tip. The surface of the cells also needs to be prepped well. I would use very high grit sandpaper (1000+) or scotch brite then immediately coat with flux. You also need to solder very quickly, not more than a couple of seconds.
-HereComesWhitey ;)
Sony VTC5D seemed to be the best cell available. Gave up some capacity but gained back amperage available. Tried some larger dimention "high amp" batteries and they proved not worth it.
@@dividingbyzerofpv6748 my favorites are Molicel, especially the P28a for 18650, or P45b for 21700.
Have you tried these?
@@PhonesandDronesRepair hey bud, 100% accurate. Prep & Time are key. It’s usually takes my two rounds of soldering. Soldered a dozen packs and all turned out great.
Glad you mentored this, people must do research and use caution. cheers!
at what voltage do you land your drone? I have a pair of ion packs but i'm still landing them at 3.3v
need that avatar hd goggles x video!!!
I find it so weird that there is no goggles X review out yet. He hasn't even mentioned it anywhere.
@@nuddin99 it is very strange
This test seems to show more the difference in C rating between the packs.
'Most' Li-Ion cells won't have the C rating of LiPo, because the Li-Ion cells are not aimed at a specific markets demands, but at general market usage - the manufacturer doesn't know when the cell is rolling down the production line if it's going to end up in a Quad, an EV, a Laptop, a Power Bank or a Torch, so they make them to have good performance in most devices. The major difference between Li-Ion and LiPo, is the cells are laid flat and the heavy metal case discarded in LiPo's. (Yes, there's some packs that use a different material for the flexible plates the charge spread out on, and there's plenty that use exactly the same chemistry as the Li-Ion) So when the Li-Ion are pushed beyong thier discharge voltage, they're doing the exact same damage to the cells, the cells are just less likely to pop in flight as they're held in a metal shell that doesn't stretch or crack open until much higher loads then the LiPo's.
This is also why Li-Pol's are much more violent once they do reach the pressure that forces open the metal shell.
While this test is fun to watch, it really doesn't deal with the Why of each types creation and market targeted applications. LiPo's exist because Phone Manufacturers wanted lighter batteries that could fit in thinner devices. Quad pilots and maunfacturers recognised the advantage of the form factor for thier use, and have taken advantage of the massive consumer demand for cell phones and the resulting push to make better batteries with higher performance. Regardless of the brand on the packaging, there's only a limited number of Battery Cell Manufacturing Plants around the world, and all a 'Drone battery manufacturer' does is buy up cells according to performance specification, assemble a pack and send them to retailers.
That difference, between a Market Targeted Product, and a Generalised Market Product, is what we see here in C-rating and Area Under The Graph.
Where the Li-Ion really has an advantage for electric flight, is for Wings, where it's easier to keep the center of mass ahead of the center of pressure if the cells are heavier, and where the lower C rating isn't such an issue for anything less then EDF's and Pylon Racers - if you've got anything that says 'Park Fly' on the box, a Li-Ion will save you money and fly longer, just a little slower at the top end.
@Joshua - How about a comparison between Li-Ion packs, and LiFePO4 packs? The 4WD, Camping, and Solar sectors are driving the uptake of LiFePO4, but the only details availble for C rating on those appears to be how fast they can be charged, and how much more deeply they can be discharged without damage. Some 18650 LiFePO4 batteries are out to 3600mAH per Cell.
I'm wondering about how sodium ion batteries would work on a drone
Actually lion packs are typically more prone to “pop” under load/high amp voltage. I had this happen to me once…
There are a lot of built in safety features (and weight) of the cylindrical cells
Nice
I will use lion in 2 scenarios:
1Long range mauntaine cruising with simple freestyle, dives, loops ets....
2 car chase at a track
Both with 7 inch
What do you think about that?
Seems like you could just choose a bigger capacitor if you need more punch out power.
Paaawww to the moon lol
I can concur with your results
damn thats a big heavy lion pack to be freestyling with!!!
Maybe some light weight super capacitors could give you the big punches on demand with the 18650s?
Its all about the c rating
I stopped using LiPo batteries. I fly long-range (from 5-inch to 10-inch quads) with current Li-ion batteries, such as those with 45 amps per cell, I no longer need LiPos.
For someone like myself who's still new to FPV (about 6months now) I fly 5" and sticky for cinematic and filming purposes. Do you have a recommendation on which battery to use and how long it can last? I'm currently using 6s 2200mAh Lipos and I get about 12-15min but would love to use something that can go for as long as possible.
This is goldmine. Ty
Finally the video I needed.
Welp. Li-ion may not deliver as much current but rather than a mere disadvantage i see it as having a higher skill ceiling for drone racing. Li-po feel like a cheat. Li-ion gives a driving more like a car with a real engine and flywheel, way more predictable.
Hope Li-ion get's preffered, because is way more fun to watch and more fun to drive.
Congrats for 300K
Do you think a large capacitor could be added to the pack? To help with sudden high amp needs. Like, with punch out or recoveries.
nope because that capacitor is able to draw massive amounts of current to recharge. i tested it. makes no difference. what would make a difference is, if you can electrically decouple the capacitor from the pack and have a small PCB onboard charger which limits the current going in the capacitor until its fully charged and same PCB will activate it ONLY on full throttle punches. but to make it useful you need to have a huge capacitor on your quad. bigger than the quad itself i think. interesting idea for sure though... 🤔👍
There was a guy that made a combo pack with both LiPo for punch and Li-Ion for capacity.
@@techstuff6829 Sounds like a good idea initially but in reality its not so great. Li-Ion cells should be used to a lower voltage to get the full capacity. If in parallel with a lipo then the lowest safe voltage of the lipo becomes limiting. So then you might aswell go with a higher capacity lipo.
I'm not sure I trust the 15C/30C rating stamped on that pack... Sony VTC6 cells are rated to 15A and are 3000 mAh. If running six parallel pairs in series, you'd double your mAh and amp rating. So if you convert to amp hours, and divide 30A by 6 Ah, you get a whopping 5C. Where are they getting 15/30?
I just build li-on battery for long range on samsung 21700 50S cells, they are better than 18650 vtc6 imo, higher energy density and cheaper, at only 5A less discharge rating
VTC5D was where I went for better discharge rates. Tried single 4200-4800 range high discharge 21700s long ago and didnt like them, sagged way sooner than the 6s2p 18650s that were 2000mah doubled for a 4k mah pack.
This is really interesting how would these 2 batteries compare to a graphene battery in performance
LiOn packs are kinda sketchy with how hot they come down.
I've been chasing drift cars this summer, and often I really don't need a lot of punch but it would be nice do double my battery capacity! Could some changes to the throttle curve help make up for the lack of punch? Just to reduce the lag a bit if I find myself in trouble so I don't smash into a car or asphalt.
Great info man!! Li-ion seems like it could be good for fixed wing aircrafts. Throughs?
For sure, I get over an hr flight time with a 4s 5000 mah li-ion pack 21700 cells on a Nano Talon Evo
I got a 2P4S pack in my 2.4m wingspan plane and it works great
@@dronepilot260rc where’d you buy one of these from?
For low current draw ones yes. A plane that draws a lot of current - no. Same with quads. Great for long range cruising but crap for racing or freestyle.
@@rehepeks awesome. Thank you for the reply!
LOL, its heavier. It doesn't matter if it's bigger or smaller.
I have issue with voltage differential in every cell while balance charging li ion battery, did anyone have same issue?
Your discharge current of only 3.5A is very low. Try a real world discharge current and you'll see the Lion pack voltage will sag quickly.
Thx
That voltage sag is using 18650 cells. What if they were 21700 instead would that improve its performance??
Definitely. Larger cells can provide more current.
Great stuff!
Sooo... This means LIon would be better for long range cruising drones? Seems so.
So, LIon is better for fixed wings? Lower power output for longer duration.
I feel like you should have mentioned the way amp draw can affect the battery. Its very easy with a normal quad to over draw from Li-Ion packs and damage them. Much harder on a Lipo since the amp draw they can consistently deliver is so much higher.
If you put the OSD element on with a normal pack you can see how much you're drawing and decide if a li-ion pack would work. You want it to be comfortably less than the max discharge rate of the pack to account for tolerance.
Should we use li-po or li-ion to charge lipo on the field ?
LiPo. It's fine to charge them to 4.2 and that is the intended use.
If you are asking what kind of battery you should use to power your charger while charging lipos on the field then you should get whichever you can buy for best capacity/price ratio.
@@rehepeks thanks bro
i accidentally overcharged a rc battery in 2011 and it literally flamed! and it was a hard fire to put out, and smelled horrible too. ....but, this killing-it by under volt, is there physical damage also? i have brought back old phone batteries from under volt using a pulse voltage so their charger will then recognise them again...
will solid state batteries ever make it to drone technology?
Have to be available for any consumer technologies first.
i am using semi solid state packs for my electric PPG and so far they are ok but i feel more voltage sag than with a lipo pack if i try to fly high. also the battery gets extremely hot. having more capacity in a less weight and smaller pack definitely seems to have its price and it might not be the "magic battery" we all waiting for. its still nice. but from that 24s 30Ah battery i can only use around 22-23Ah maximum. over 7ah are just gone due to heat
Vtc6 18650 isn’t that great for fpv flying, samsung 40t 21700 is way better. And when cell volt reaches 2.5(under load) it is nearly dead and below that you won’t get much power because the voltage is just too low for the motor. I fly my chimera 7 with 6s2p 21700 and I can easily get 30+min cruise time and land with 3v/cell. 6s2p 40t has 120amp burst so I can push throttle like I’m using lipo but just less power because of the voltage sag.
When using lion batteries it is always better to use 2p or more of them.
Was not a fan of 21700s years back. Final cell I settled on was the VTC5D in 6s2p and 8s2p.
Missed the difference in max amps / max peek amps which are way less on LIONs.
I discussed C rate and voltage sag, which are the same thing as what you are describing.
Hello Mr. Bardwell, Just a newbie question, Planning to buy Nazgul Evoque5 v3, can I onset use Lithium Ion Batt packs on it? or do I need to change some hardware plus the settings? btw love the content! much love from the Phillippines
Ok...just thinking here...what about a combination of a Lipo and a LI-ion pack in series vs. parallel or a combination of cell types in a single pack to complement their strength to the other's weaknesses? You heard it here first?
Nope, It has been done, but maybe not in the high current draws we see. "I am running a 36S LiPo with 43S LiFePo4 for 18 months with no issues." as a power bank...yes.
" " As long as you make sure the voltage ranges and charge/discharge rates are within the safe limits for both batteries, you are good. You will not get good balance (i.e. the discharges will be neither balanced per pack nor consistent across the discharge curve) but you will get significantly more energy?" Huh, I wonder if heavy duty balance leads connected to one another of the differing pack might help maintain cell balances.
Why aren't there esc's that also take measurements from the balance lead?
Id love a good long range recommendation form my Chimara pro v2... Im having trouble picking a battery. On top of that I get a few hundred yards across a soy bean field and the video starts cutting out.. DJI O3
Hey Joshua can you do a video on the logic fpv sim, it’s the realest one out
Question, please help: I got a 6S LiIon Pack, Just Like in the video. But one of the cells is loosing voltage quickly. Can I remove the damaged cell safely? 5S and a little lighter would even be better I think.
Racequadrones link is wrong Joshua!
Li-Ion pack for Mark 5 O3 DC - is it possible? Just for crusing, no hard punches. The battery won't get damage because of current?
what about a 3500mah lithuim, would it be half the weight, how would it fly?
In what universe can a VTC6 pack do 15C sustainably?
Battery C ratings are always bullshit in FPV.
Nice video jb. What are the standard voltages for lithium ion batteries? Same as lipo? Minus discharge? For instance.. Full voltage: 4.2 and storage: 3.8? And can run them down let’s say 3.0? If you run it like that is this likely to generate reliability or is this considered abusing it?