We have an opportunity to publicly shame someone stealing tournament money which will strongly discourage TDs from using these kinds of business practices but instead lowlifes in the disc golf world are excusing this behavior with comments like "you don't know his heart" or "it's only $150" and "the real issue is his medical expenses being too high". Do not do this, it will not do what we need to bring light to this issue which has happened before and will happen again if there are not serious consequences.
As a COVID player, i can't believe the shrugs and the "suspiciously run tourneys". No wonder this never taken seriously. No wonder this guy can steal and not worry about repercussions.
Debate night without the big guy just isn’t the same. With all due respect to the other guys. Although this was closer to a chat over coffee than a debate anyway.
Wrong is wrong. Can’t spin it any other way. Such a bad look. Terry and friends should help and save the tournament. Since Terry wants to support this kind of act. “A good guy” 🤦🏻♂️.
If he really is representing Dynamic Discs as his signature says, then Dynamic Discs needs to make this right. If he doesn’t actually represent DD then it sounds like DD needs to send him a cease and desist to protect themselves legally.
@@jay3412 he has already been cut off from DD I think. Sounds like they are in the process of buying out his inventory and figuring out what to do with his branded RV. His TDing has nothing to do with DD mind you. Don’t quote me on any of this, it’s just my understanding after listening to the podcast with Terry.
The Tournament has already been ‘saved’ and Terry has contributed a couple of entry fees. That’s something atleast. It’s incredibly disingenuous to say Terry has supported his actions in anyway mind you.
My thoughts are, It’s only embezzlement if he was taking the money out for personal gain or using the company to buy himself stuff. If he was putting the tournament dues into an operations account, paying vendors, bills and invoices with that and then messed up balancing his books I don’t think that is necessarily illegal. Now if there is no criminal or legal repercussions there needs to be PDGA and civil repercussions.
@@tkuczunyeah now that the event is being delivered as promised (although not by Jray) I don’t even see how there’s gonna be any legal or civil action. The worst he’s gonna get is a lifetime ban from the PDGA, I don’t even know if there’s precedent for that in the PDGA disciplinary guidelines though.
How should anybody react when the small town carpenter goes down in the of a housing project with debts to the suppliers and the family he is building for? How should anybody react when any type of small business goes down? You guys apparently close your eyes and choose to know nothing.... This is super childish to listen to. It aint different just because its disc golf.....
90% of people have no understanding of what the issue is here. The lack of critical thinking and investigation from what amounts (unfortunately) to our largest media source is very disappointing.
The PDGA looking stupid? Say it ain't so!! Guy misuses $25K and the PDGA is like it's all good bro, you'll make it up to em right? K. Thx. Bye. I swear to F the PDGA is such a stupid organization. If I could get event insurance somewhere else for cheap I would do it. Even then by time I pay player fees and all the other garbage it probably is easier to get a private quote and just do something un-sanctioned. Hunter makes a good point too about AMs.. trophy only events, player packs, all that stuff is easily pocketed by giving people garbage and the PDGA doesn't give a rat's ass as long as you say you paid out 100% of what you took in. I know I just went to goodwill grabbed a trophy that says 2012 Little League Champions and put some tape over that and wrote in with sharpie 1st place, but I swear PDGA it is worth the $50 I charged people to get in.
NASCAR uses a full field through the season. However, only those eligible to win the championship accrue points and progress. That way touring pros can still make money.
Playoffs: College Bowl games, they started accepting losing record teams to play in bowl games just for cash. The question is cash or integrity, PDGA choosed cash like a lot lizard.
The tour championship should have nothing to do with the whole season in my opinion. Should just be its own tournament that happens to pay a bunch of money to the winner rather than trying to make it like the NBA finals. Make the points title a separate cash prize rather than trying to make specific people win because of the points they accumulated all year. I personally will not be looking forward to that tournament at all just because there are really only 2-3 guys that have a chance at winning while everyone else is just there to pick up their check and go home
Local level: league here has an ace pool. 5$ dollars to play. The pool is capped at “300$”. All the excess is taken by the person holing the pool … I don’t play in league (corruption is now universal)
Not sure where to send questions for the next debate night but I'd like to hear everyone's take on Paige's caddy moving an embedded in the ground rock to improve her lie. I feel like that wasn't "loose debris". Lots of people bring up McBeth moving a log at World's in 2021 even though it was part of the course. To me those are both illegal. Just thought it would be a great question. Also curious how everyone thinks they should re-word the rules to make it more clear
Sports that run playoffs but let non playoff teams compete in events. NASCAR. Only reason they do this, MONEY. Same reason the DGPT doesn’t actually follow the cuts. It’s not at that level of the big sports and Honeslty might not ever be. The playoff system is weak for disc golf and I don’t see it sticking around.
Anyone! Form a new disc golf organization! All tournaments to be held on golf courses capable of supporting professional camera crews-portable baskets, changing pin positioning each round. Invite huge sponsors to attract television coverage. Once the money starts rolling in, design and install professional, exclusive disc golf courses.
Am I the only person who thinks that someone who isn't supposed to be at GMC winning and going to the tour championship would be a great Cinderella story.
brose...it's vending FEES not vending DONATIONS...if he was just using the money for FEES then he should be **AT LEAST** making that FEE money back through sales every tournament....if you're not then what kind of business are you??? it should be impossible to lose the money on vending FEES
I assume dynamic is having the sale, not to make up the owed money but to kinda try to get attention away from the story (tons of casual fans won't find out about this situation)
The PDGA has an event feedback system in place. If I feel I've been cheated I can complain and they will look into it. most of the "the pdga should do this or the pdga should do that" ultimately comes down to $$$$. these rants or discussions I agree with and I would also like to have a maple hill in my local park...feasible??? .cost $$$$ right..my point is we can't just wish things into existence....do you really want to see the change then your gonna have to as the saying goes" put your $$ where your mouth is"
You finally have the chance to have a legit in person version f debate night and you totally shy away from the format of the show…..what is the logic here??
Not hot take good idea out the cut at what 72 or something if you don’t make that have like a 100 man tourney for the last 28 or something, you cooked with that idea imo
TM revealed his true self, then made a Reel trying to explain it...but it was just an advertisement for his terrible podcast. No excuse to not know the nice guy routine was just cover.
Lots of tournaments take entry fees by PayPal, and it's certainly easier to leave the money in as balance and pay out from that, especially when plenty of players would prefer that to cash. I know the reputation of PayPal and Venmo has always leaned toward unscrupulous activities, but in my town you can pay your municipal water bill with PayPal.
I was at 2019 Worlds, and it was noted during the trophy ceremony winnings would be paid via PayPal. Surprised me, but made sense. Easier than dealing with cash, and PayPal handles any 1099 responsibility.
Ridicule him for life…everyone call him a thief every single time you see him. On the course, THIEF! At the grocery store, THIEF! At the gas station, THIEF!
I don't understand why its bad they are doing due diligence. Optics? Deterrent? From a practical standpoint, don't we want due diligence? Contrary to what the robbery analogy is implying, the criminal justice system is designed to prevent knee-jerk emotional reactions - for good reasons. But if I understand correctly, you guys think the pdga should disc-golf-death-penalty him before doing any due diligence - because its good optics? Isn't something like getting all the facts and a full and fair litigation of what happened here good optics? If you walk into the police department and say you committed a crime, they are not going to just send you straight to jail. They are going to get your story and investigate it and then it is going to be sent through the legal system, and the evidence is going to be looked at and an appropriate legal solution is going to be worked out, then maybe you go to jail. And yes, a lot of the time you are going to get to go home and live your life while the process is ongoing. The deterrent is still there, you still get sentenced, but we purposefully put steps in to make sure we aren't just doing angry mob justice. People don't do more crime because sentencing isn't immediate. Also something like a financial crime might take longer to sort out than something like a robbery. Even if its pretty clear someone did something illegal on its face, you don't just stop there, look no further and send them to be sentenced. You go through all the relevant evidence and make sure the judge/jury is presented with all the information. Why would we not want something like this for this case? Would it really not be acceptable if in a few weeks or something, they release the findings of an investigation and the conclusions and rulings which include banning the guy? The PDGA sucks, there is plenty to go after them about (they don't need to be publicly defending him) - I doubt they will handle this well at all. But at this point saying they need to forcefully and immediately punish this guy before doing any due diligence and that it is inappropriate for them to do due diligence in this is not it for me.
@@vJackaRooit’s irrelevant that he confessed. What did he even confess to for one? You don’t just throw the process out the window. I’m on the don’t be an idiot and actually make sure this guy is punished correctly side.
It is a nasty slippery sloop.. I am still so confused... Why the hell is there a financials tab in the Post Report?!?!?! Do the PDGA even look at it? There should be a "Net Zero" when you account for the money coming in and out.. Even Sponsorships are reported... And TDs still do inappropriate "fees." I have called a few out on it.
In before everyone realises Jray hasn’t done anything illegal. People have no idea what the terms they’re throwing around mean (misuse of funds, embezzlement etc) or how businesses typically operate. Nor did they take the time to properly understand the situation. The only things he’s really guilty of are poorly operating his business and violating the trust of the players entering his tournaments. If he’d taken the time to liquidate some of his assets and make up the money to run the tournament instead of putting out the statement he would just be an idiot who needs to rethink how he runs his business rather than probably getting a lifetime PDGA ban.
Disc Golf guy is done if he carries on with this stance. Its criminal activity, plain and simple, and lets face it, if he hadnt been caught out this year his embezzlement would have just carried on
If the PDGA let's this slide and say the hate is punishment enough. I will never renew my membership and never play another tournament. Do the right thing PDGA DONT protect a thief, it happens at small events in a different way. I see it all the time with player packs Changing last minute. $5 - $10 per player adds up for Greedy TD'S
Terry: this is way out of character for him!
Jonathan: yeah I’ve literally been doing this for years
This!
Eloquently stated
Where there is money there is corruption.
We have an opportunity to publicly shame someone stealing tournament money which will strongly discourage TDs from using these kinds of business practices but instead lowlifes in the disc golf world are excusing this behavior with comments like "you don't know his heart" or "it's only $150" and "the real issue is his medical expenses being too high". Do not do this, it will not do what we need to bring light to this issue which has happened before and will happen again if there are not serious consequences.
SHAME SHAME SHAME
Yeah….hear that Terry Miller?? He’s talking about you!😂😂
Dynamic having The Felon on sale is a little too much.
💀
I just checked their website.
I bought their 5 disc combo for 35$ in august.
As a COVID player, i can't believe the shrugs and the "suspiciously run tourneys". No wonder this never taken seriously. No wonder this guy can steal and not worry about repercussions.
Debate night without the big guy just isn’t the same. With all due respect to the other guys. Although this was closer to a chat over coffee than a debate anyway.
Wrong is wrong. Can’t spin it any other way. Such a bad look. Terry and friends should help and save the tournament. Since Terry wants to support this kind of act. “A good guy” 🤦🏻♂️.
Yeah, there's no spinning this.
If he really is representing Dynamic Discs as his signature says, then Dynamic Discs needs to make this right. If he doesn’t actually represent DD then it sounds like DD needs to send him a cease and desist to protect themselves legally.
@@jay3412 he has already been cut off from DD I think. Sounds like they are in the process of buying out his inventory and figuring out what to do with his branded RV. His TDing has nothing to do with DD mind you. Don’t quote me on any of this, it’s just my understanding after listening to the podcast with Terry.
The Tournament has already been ‘saved’ and Terry has contributed a couple of entry fees. That’s something atleast. It’s incredibly disingenuous to say Terry has supported his actions in anyway mind you.
Chode
My thoughts are, It’s only embezzlement if he was taking the money out for personal gain or using the company to buy himself stuff. If he was putting the tournament dues into an operations account, paying vendors, bills and invoices with that and then messed up balancing his books I don’t think that is necessarily illegal.
Now if there is no criminal or legal repercussions there needs to be PDGA and civil repercussions.
Agreed… Until he fails to deliver the event that people have paid for.
@@tkuczunyeah now that the event is being delivered as promised (although not by Jray) I don’t even see how there’s gonna be any legal or civil action. The worst he’s gonna get is a lifetime ban from the PDGA, I don’t even know if there’s precedent for that in the PDGA disciplinary guidelines though.
This isn’t debate night, it’s a different show.
How should anybody react when the small town carpenter goes down in the of a housing project with debts to the suppliers and the family he is building for? How should anybody react when any type of small business goes down?
You guys apparently close your eyes and choose to know nothing....
This is super childish to listen to. It aint different just because its disc golf.....
90% of people have no understanding of what the issue is here. The lack of critical thinking and investigation from what amounts (unfortunately) to our largest media source is very disappointing.
Get yo money Terry! I'm sure your buddy ray j will pay what he promised you.
Gary has that LOCKED IN 🔒 game face on. 🔥
Lancaster, PA represent!
Sadly, he released another statement saying that there were no medical bills and there was no fishing trip
The PDGA looking stupid? Say it ain't so!! Guy misuses $25K and the PDGA is like it's all good bro, you'll make it up to em right? K. Thx. Bye. I swear to F the PDGA is such a stupid organization. If I could get event insurance somewhere else for cheap I would do it. Even then by time I pay player fees and all the other garbage it probably is easier to get a private quote and just do something un-sanctioned.
Hunter makes a good point too about AMs.. trophy only events, player packs, all that stuff is easily pocketed by giving people garbage and the PDGA doesn't give a rat's ass as long as you say you paid out 100% of what you took in. I know I just went to goodwill grabbed a trophy that says 2012 Little League Champions and put some tape over that and wrote in with sharpie 1st place, but I swear PDGA it is worth the $50 I charged people to get in.
NASCAR uses a full field through the season. However, only those eligible to win the championship accrue points and progress. That way touring pros can still make money.
Exactly. Great comparison
It’s nuts to see this happening. I’m a local to jray and basically grew up playing his events. Sad to see this misuse of peoples money.
Go Gary! Repping Central PA…
Playoffs: College Bowl games, they started accepting losing record teams to play in bowl games just for cash.
The question is cash or integrity, PDGA choosed cash like a lot lizard.
Better with Brodie. Not a fan of the format or lack there of.
Seriously, how many other tournaments are actually run JUST like this?
Most 😅
As a past TD, you never use money from on tourney to feed the expenses of another. They need to be separate from day 1.
26,000 over how many years? Embezzlement is illegal....
The tour championship should have nothing to do with the whole season in my opinion. Should just be its own tournament that happens to pay a bunch of money to the winner rather than trying to make it like the NBA finals. Make the points title a separate cash prize rather than trying to make specific people win because of the points they accumulated all year. I personally will not be looking forward to that tournament at all just because there are really only 2-3 guys that have a chance at winning while everyone else is just there to pick up their check and go home
Local level: league here has an ace pool. 5$ dollars to play. The pool is capped at “300$”. All the excess is taken by the person holing the pool … I don’t play in league (corruption is now universal)
Sounds like a Pro problem. That’s why I don’t play for cash 😂
Not sure where to send questions for the next debate night but I'd like to hear everyone's take on Paige's caddy moving an embedded in the ground rock to improve her lie. I feel like that wasn't "loose debris". Lots of people bring up McBeth moving a log at World's in 2021 even though it was part of the course. To me those are both illegal. Just thought it would be a great question. Also curious how everyone thinks they should re-word the rules to make it more clear
Sports that run playoffs but let non playoff teams compete in events. NASCAR. Only reason they do this, MONEY. Same reason the DGPT doesn’t actually follow the cuts. It’s not at that level of the big sports and Honeslty might not ever be. The playoff system is weak for disc golf and I don’t see it sticking around.
Anyone! Form a new disc golf organization! All tournaments to be held on golf courses capable of supporting professional camera crews-portable baskets, changing pin positioning each round. Invite huge sponsors to attract television coverage. Once the money starts rolling in, design and install professional, exclusive disc golf courses.
Hunter looks straight up pissed off. Hope your day is better by the time u read this big hun
If you never do this format again, I'll resubscribe in a month. With all due respect...
Gary’s grumpy face is my UDisc profile pic now 0:59
Absconding money "As i have done every year"....
Am I the only person who thinks that someone who isn't supposed to be at GMC winning and going to the tour championship would be a great Cinderella story.
It would be but it’s shouldn’t be a thing every year, and your not catching Gannon anyway
Yo rapid reacts, Bud Hill is back on with new TD. Soar Disc golf donated money for the event
brose...it's vending FEES not vending DONATIONS...if he was just using the money for FEES then he should be **AT LEAST** making that FEE money back through sales every tournament....if you're not then what kind of business are you??? it should be impossible to lose the money on vending FEES
I assume dynamic is having the sale, not to make up the owed money but to kinda try to get attention away from the story (tons of casual fans won't find out about this situation)
The PDGA has an event feedback system in place. If I feel I've been cheated I can complain and they will look into it. most of the "the pdga should do this or the pdga should do that" ultimately comes down to $$$$. these rants or discussions I agree with and I would also like to have a maple hill in my local park...feasible??? .cost $$$$ right..my point is we can't just wish things into existence....do you really want to see the change then your gonna have to as the saying goes" put your $$ where your mouth is"
You finally have the chance to have a legit in person version f debate night and you totally shy away from the format of the show…..what is the logic here??
Guess we know 2 guys who is gonna be a part of the reality show
Acting like they didn't tell us that's what they were planning a few weeks ago
@@mickiesworkshop3490 yeah thats kinda wierd right?
Funny that when Paul is playing terribly and washed up and blah blah blah... he's still in 8th place. Man I'd love to be that terrible at disc golf.
Come on man, Cdick choked and then came back and won GMC the following year, how dont you remember that?!?
Hot take, they make a wild card tournament for people out of the top 100 to play in...
Not hot take good idea out the cut at what 72 or something if you don’t make that have like a 100 man tourney for the last 28 or something, you cooked with that idea imo
These guys are clueless when it comes to crimes and penalties
TM revealed his true self, then made a Reel trying to explain it...but it was just an advertisement for his terrible podcast. No excuse to not know the nice guy routine was just cover.
What? Terry wasn’t the one who misused the money.
@@leastselfawarepotassium you'll have to excuse me, I don't have long conversations with the daft
@@tropicallybrewing a short summary would suffice. With how many comments you write about Terry you’d think you’d be able to summarise your thoughts.
Much better format and decent topics.
Really TD's pay out by Paypal?? WTF? Using PayPal to pay prize money seems like a terrible business practices to me.
Lots of tournaments take entry fees by PayPal, and it's certainly easier to leave the money in as balance and pay out from that, especially when plenty of players would prefer that to cash. I know the reputation of PayPal and Venmo has always leaned toward unscrupulous activities, but in my town you can pay your municipal water bill with PayPal.
It's done this away all the way up to the Pro Tour.
I was at 2019 Worlds, and it was noted during the trophy ceremony winnings would be paid via PayPal. Surprised me, but made sense. Easier than dealing with cash, and PayPal handles any 1099 responsibility.
Kat!!!
Ridicule him for life…everyone call him a thief every single time you see him. On the course, THIEF! At the grocery store, THIEF! At the gas station, THIEF!
31:04 there’s some background chains and talking that is heard - not a huge deal but it kinda distracted me a bit at this moment in the video.
I don't understand why its bad they are doing due diligence. Optics? Deterrent?
From a practical standpoint, don't we want due diligence? Contrary to what the robbery analogy is implying, the criminal justice system is designed to prevent knee-jerk emotional reactions - for good reasons. But if I understand correctly, you guys think the pdga should disc-golf-death-penalty him before doing any due diligence - because its good optics? Isn't something like getting all the facts and a full and fair litigation of what happened here good optics?
If you walk into the police department and say you committed a crime, they are not going to just send you straight to jail. They are going to get your story and investigate it and then it is going to be sent through the legal system, and the evidence is going to be looked at and an appropriate legal solution is going to be worked out, then maybe you go to jail. And yes, a lot of the time you are going to get to go home and live your life while the process is ongoing. The deterrent is still there, you still get sentenced, but we purposefully put steps in to make sure we aren't just doing angry mob justice. People don't do more crime because sentencing isn't immediate.
Also something like a financial crime might take longer to sort out than something like a robbery. Even if its pretty clear someone did something illegal on its face, you don't just stop there, look no further and send them to be sentenced. You go through all the relevant evidence and make sure the judge/jury is presented with all the information. Why would we not want something like this for this case? Would it really not be acceptable if in a few weeks or something, they release the findings of an investigation and the conclusions and rulings which include banning the guy?
The PDGA sucks, there is plenty to go after them about (they don't need to be publicly defending him) - I doubt they will handle this well at all. But at this point saying they need to forcefully and immediately punish this guy before doing any due diligence and that it is inappropriate for them to do due diligence in this is not it for me.
The man admitted his crime, suspend him until it’s sorted. Protect the player base, not the confessed criminal.
@@vJackaRoo I assume he has been. The player base isn’t in any danger though. And I’m not convinced any crime has been committed.
@@leastselfawarepotassium Why is this so difficult for you? He confessed. Are you on the No Big Deal side of the curve?
@@vJackaRooit’s irrelevant that he confessed. What did he even confess to for one? You don’t just throw the process out the window. I’m on the don’t be an idiot and actually make sure this guy is punished correctly side.
@@leastselfawarepotassium Why is it irrelevant that he confessed?
bad fckn example dude! shoulder checking = assault
Disc mania
Nate Heinold's organization is a fucking gong show? I'm SHOCKED.
It is a nasty slippery sloop.. I am still so confused... Why the hell is there a financials tab in the Post Report?!?!?! Do the PDGA even look at it? There should be a "Net Zero" when you account for the money coming in and out.. Even Sponsorships are reported... And TDs still do inappropriate "fees." I have called a few out on it.
In before everyone realises Jray hasn’t done anything illegal. People have no idea what the terms they’re throwing around mean (misuse of funds, embezzlement etc) or how businesses typically operate. Nor did they take the time to properly understand the situation.
The only things he’s really guilty of are poorly operating his business and violating the trust of the players entering his tournaments.
If he’d taken the time to liquidate some of his assets and make up the money to run the tournament instead of putting out the statement he would just be an idiot who needs to rethink how he runs his business rather than probably getting a lifetime PDGA ban.
Disc Golf guy is done if he carries on with this stance. Its criminal activity, plain and simple, and lets face it, if he hadnt been caught out this year his embezzlement would have just carried on
10 mins in and I had to quit watching. Brodie is Debate Night. Not the same show without him.
It’s criminal. It should be prosecuted. He should be banned from the PDGA. Law is law. Theft is theft.
Trevor, for the love of Texas Pete, please stop interrupting people. Brother, it's constant.
I'd rather have randos quit saying brother and bro.
If the PDGA let's this slide and say the hate is punishment enough. I will never renew my membership and never play another tournament. Do the right thing PDGA DONT protect a thief, it happens at small events in a different way. I see it all the time with player packs Changing last minute. $5 - $10 per player adds up for Greedy TD'S
Disc golf is for stoners
Look at yourself in the mirror. If you don't see perfection than don't judge others.
There's a big difference between everyday imperfection and stealing $26,000.
LOL, ok. I'm not perfect, but I don't embezzle tens of thousands from disc golf players. Take your moral relativity somewhere else.
You suck
do Amish play DG? cause he said lancaster PA...
There are actually a lot of Amish that do play DG. Especially after church on sundays they come out in massive groups
11:30 why is there not a pdga suspension immediately ?
Love seeing Gary and Josh on this show. Keep up the cool new content Foundation Bros 🫡