The Problem with Tanking in World of Warcraft
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 21 мар 2021
- Social media & stream:
/ maximum
/ maximum
Hey guys, as most people who watch my stream has heard atleast once before, I personally think that historically the best tanks are previous DPS players. In this video I'll go over the main issues with the current state of tanking, and why career tanks are usually people who don't try to optimize their performance.
Join our community discord:
/ discord
For Business please contact:
TeamMaximum@unitedtalent.com
#maximum #liquidmaximum #dragonflight 
Игры
This is why I play a Blood DK. My goal on ever fight is beat a healer.
M+ players are also extremely toxic to tanks trying to learn the role, so it's harder to foster new tanks.
This. 100%. It’s kinda bad on any role almost why I only do them with friends and not pugs.
thats so true.
You can say that again. I just started playing wow a few months ago and decided to start off tanking because I wanted a challenge. The amount of toxicity I was met with was insane, would be my first time in a dungeon and the entire party would be flaming me when I died... to things I've literally never seen before, I'm honestly surprised I was able to stick through it. I play casually so I haven't progressed as fast as most players but I just completed my first 13 today and surprised the hell outta myself. Prot Pally btw :)
It's probably the hardest roll in that content. Everyone you group with is expecting a perfect route already. Anything slightly less than that, and well it's gonna be hate towards you. It's a pretty tough barrier for newer players/tanks. You're basically the leader so. I started this game as a monk tank, and I got flamed a lot cause I was a bit clueless and I was kicked off leveling dungeons regularly. I just switched to a different roll after that lol.
I am leveling prot warrior right now, i am ready to be kicked and flamed and get 0 gear til 9.1
Very few tanks tank because they want to, they tank because someone has to.
Tanking is so fun idk why u people think it's s chore . I made a prot warrior knowing it was the worst tier bc tanking as prot is heaps of fun. And soloing content as tank is great too
which is crazy as well because because it's actually insanely hard to find a guild as a tank say mid tier. because usually guilds dont want to change tanks either XD. end of tier is usually the only time a tank might be able to squeeze into a CE guild or higher tier. it's a weird situation.
I rolled a Prot Pally because I enjoy tanking. However I've been away from Warcraft since 2008. Nothing is the same, the game is toxic as fuuuuuck and nobody helps anyone.
It's World of Mounts at this point. Nobody plays the game
@@CDuff86 The old school of WoW still exists, but only in well run raiding guilds. Since pugging has become the default way of doing content for most people, the player base has become increasingly selfish and antisocial.
@@Icipher353 yeah I have seen that. It's honestly making me contemplate going to FF14 or something similar. I built my PC to crush frames in the most demanding instances but end up playing WoW with graphics from 2002 lol.
Ugh, feels like a waste of money at the moment. Just a tank lookin to get slapped around
Doing High Keys as a tank is so much more rewarding. You feel steonger as you get better, you do bigger pulls, pump a lot of AOE damage, it's really really fun. People see the diference between a good tank and a bad tank. But tanking in raid just feels like even if you do your best, it's not even that important
Well, yeah, because you are not contributing on damage that much, you are just a sponge of attacks for the boss
The same is basicly also true for dps because there are 13 other people instead of 2. If you pump crazy dmg on m+ you really feel it in a pull but if you do it in a raid the boss just dies a few seconds quicker.
@@Voldrim359 you’re literally contributing a Lot of the damage. Tanks excel at cleave damage hugely
@@Voldrim359 TF you talking about lmfao and without the tank you and the rest of the raid would be a highly overgeared DPS 1 shot... SO your point on the comment seems a bit dumb founded..
Minute into a dungeon you can already tell whether a tank is good or bad. Good tanks not only manage huge pulls, but also know how to help your DPS do more dps too, like not pulling mobs from ground-AoE or creating deathballs. Tanks are also able to deal HUGE AoE damage when they feel secure about what they do, it's great when everything clicks.
“So people will stop asking about it.”
Ahh, so naive. They will NEVER stop asking about it.
but now he can just tell them to watch the video tho
but at least the option to drop a link to this video with a macro will be an option.
the first kill of a raid boss was always exhilarating when tanking. After that, it was harder to control how many beers I knocked down during raid night
i couldnt stop that while playing hunter :D i bet i would be smashed after every raid if i tanked ^^
Facts
This. When I mained tank in cataclysm, I barely remember heroic deathwing because of all the booze.
Man, this all really hit home. I was my guilds main tank(prot warrior) throughout the entirety of Legion and BfA. I got a lot of praise for my great dps and survivability and I'm one of those people who spends an hour or two every week just scouring logs to see how I can improve from people better than myself. By the end of BfA, tank burnout was real, but I couldn't really do anything else because I didn't have a viable replacement.
SL rolls around and we recuit a good tank and out OT declares himself MT due to seniority. I finally get to roll Fury and it feels so refreshing to be able to strive twice as hard to keep the same parsing I had as tank. The ladder is a lot harder to climb and I like the challenge.
But then the obvious flaws in our old tank who was my OT just became glaringly obvious. We would have 8 wipes in a night and he would be sitting at 18 deaths. He was so proud of his stupid purple parses though. I tried to give him pointers, but he basically said "I know what I'm doing". So I made the tough choice to throw on my complete garbage tanking gear one night and sat him. We progressed 3 bosses in a single night and I even managed to tank Sludgefist with my awful gear and wrong conduits. Healers and raid leader asked me to stay tank, but I refused. Tried one more time to help the guy out, hoping after that night he would listen. He refused, so we sat him and found a new tank. He ragequit the guild, tried to cause some drama and crap, but it was honestly the best thing we did this tier. I got to stay DPS, his replacement is learning, but decent and takes advice like a champ.
Tanks, PLEASE only care about your DPS parses in raid if you aren't dying constantly. If you have twice as many deaths as the rest of your raid then you're doing something fundamentally wrong and you need to worry about fixing that and not improving your dps.
For any who wonders what was wrong with our tank, he was a pally and I discovered he had absolutely awful consecration up time, he often wasn't standing in it. He was also hoarding his defensives "for when he needs them" and then dying before he could even use them. He was often using the wrong spender for his holy power depending on damage type. Dude would go from 100% to dead in half a second randomly. It was nasty.
A good prot pally is very very rare, like it's the rarest tank to be good at, of course the insanely good one will make your life so much easier due to their immunities and big heals. But so few prot pally know their kit in and out, majority of prot pally play like a holy and dies pretty quick.
@@roninani I don't feel like good pallys are rarer than good other tanks, it's just that bad pallys are just infinitely squishier than any other tank and just die really fast, so it becomes very obvious of you're bad and die. But if you find a good one, he can do some crazy shit
The idea of not keeping consecrate up astounds me. I still waste a lot of gcds overcasting consecration.
@@tbirddddd right? Flat damage reduction! Can't beat that! He literally had sub 50% up time on a lot of fights. It didn't help that he had a TON of crit and very little vers or mastery
I had similar experience in Mists. I was playing blood DK and due to work only made some raids. Almost all our progression was during those nights as our 2nd tank (also a DK) was trying to play like a guide says rather than reacting to the fight as it progressed (hoarding RP, trying to time every DS. Yes this is optimal if you pull it off great but not when you mistime etc). As a result his damage intake, RP gen and DPS stayed miles behind mine even with better gear (which with vengeance as it was made the discrepancy so much more).
Also what I did earlier in TBC to keep interested in tanking was find ways to make it harder. Speed runs of dungeons and solo tanking Kara clears to reducing healers and upping dps to greatly increase clear speed. Though I also used to love the challenge of soloing old content when it required alot of skill and execution to pull off and/or clever mechanics. Sadly they removed that aspect of the game when making it accessible for everyone (which is good in its own way but did remove a challenging aspect in game).
I feel like almost every mythic raiding guild has someone that only started tanking and continue to tank because they need to, rather than because they want to.
True, same for healers. I'm the main healer of my guild, we're on Inerva MM, I'm here because no one else can do it, period.
@@Moaningbird Think it's just you bud. I'm a healer because it's way more interesting than dps. All the healers I know heal by choice and most of them will even refuse to play dps when we happen to have too many healers on a night.
@@Fenlen I prefer healing. I'm saying that when you start with a healer or tank role it is harder to change at some point because your presence becomes mandatory for the roster.
@@Fenlen I would rather dps in heal spec than going dps because, as Max pointed out, doing things half assed doesn't feel rewarding at all.
@@Fenlen I know a healer who wants to dps but can't. It is true that some have to
I am fine tanking, however people often ask me why I'm in Moonkin form.
Lol
OOOF
@@Miauteusz :D
@@ZarisWhiteFoot i call it improved bear form
NEW LIMIT MAX VID TIME TO FEEL BAD ABOUT MY PROGRESSION
In all my years of playing wow I only ever tried healing & dps out of pure fear of what others would think of my bad tanking.
I'm literally in that rut right now.
Heroic geared but I can't bring myself to put myself on the centre stage!
@@Vilutusk Train on below +10 keys and after couple runs you will be ready to tank - just prepare routes ahead of time. For raiding though, it's actually far easier than mythic+, your focus should be entirely on positioning of the boss and mitigation, along with occassional tank swap.
Man the part talking about vengeance is so true. I remember veng capping on my prot paladin with eternal flame and getting ticks for 95% of my hp and basically being unkillable through it and had a blast tanking
"Naohw literally runs torghast during raid farm" LOL that literally killed me
The only thing that has kept me playing as tank is the responsibility that is required to know what you're doing and to keep improving to make the keys easier for my KSM group. It was really fun learning tank this expansion and I wanna get better and be a valuable tank player.
Fun but taxing as hell. The amount more a tank needs to know for a run in M+ compared to other roles...I'm debating if it's fair. The route is on you, someone messes up that route...well you gotta fix it. DPS dies you roll your eyes and press forward, Healer dies, pinch your cheeks and try to avoid damage, Tank dies it's utter chaos.
Legion tanking M+ was more casual because the routes were obvious and there was no seasonal affix. DPS could carry a bad or mediocre tank by pulling for him since threat was a joke then, and just killing stuff fast enough before the tank dies.
I pushed up to a 20+ on my healer last season in BFA and all I had to do was run around toss out heals and try not to die. Hell even if I did die the group could sustain themselves (last patch people tend to be OP). Whereas however the tank really needs to know everything about the dungeon.
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of knowledge you drop in these videos, and during your streams. Much
Completely agree. had to switch to tank from DPS recently and almost instantly stoped carring. I'm like "i'll just don't die and farm first kills, whatever". It's frustrating
Hard to replace your tank when no one wants to play the role lmao.
A lot of people don't tank because it is hard to get a raid spot from the get go, ESPECIALLY has a begineer. You are forced to pug as a begineer, so literally to lead the flow of the raid as a begineer
You put into words what I think we have all felt when trying to tank/heal. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is a conversation that more people need to hear.
love the content bro cool to always take a break from the grind and watch you talk about stuff
I went from MDPS in the last 2 expacs to healing in SL and I agree, the motivation to try and be better is much higher on a DPS class. Part of the reason I went for a Disc Priest for my healer is because it's a challenge to play well and it helps keep that motivation high. I'm currently trying to get better and ramping and when to apply it properly in a boss fight, which is endlessly more fun than being a Resto Shaman etc.
This really hit home for me. I am pretty casual and I (heroic raiding mainly) enjoyed tanking progression for raids but now it just feels like a chore to log on and raid tank.
Progression healing, if you have a lot of passion about the game and care about what you’re doing, is one of the most stressful things in the game IMO. You don’t want to let anyone down and the before everyone is geared the damage is so high. Healing progression takes a different breed.
Thank you for this. As an old tank whose guild quit I've been just a casual now for a few expansions. Sad to hear the same old things are still happening but also that tanks are still respected.
oh man im glad you had an arrow pointing at a tauren prot warrior. without it i never wouldve found out what you were talking about in the video.
memes aside, love your streams
"Do you have a route? When do we skip? Are we good on %?"
Only tanks get these questions. Fuck that, I want to play, not to do mathematics homework and studies in my free time.
is the role of the tank to make a road, like me im a healer and i have to know the instance and the specialties of each trash to adapt my heal
A good dps or healer would know the routes or % or where to use cds. You seem to be a casual looking out of your comment
This is why I just bailed on the last season of BFA. Having to relearn routes every week meant I'd have to spend more time studying than playing the game and that's not fun.
Yeah downloading an add-on then going to raid.io and going to the route section and importing it into mdt by pressing ctrl C ctrl v is so hard lemme just reroll because learning meta game is just too hard
@@jamfero Does the rest of the sentence come with DLC?
I've been tanking for the past 3 expansions. DK in Legion, Warrior in BFA, and now a Pally in SL. It was fun in Legion and in BFA (dungeons and raids). Now I stand there, position the boss, and get my face beat in. I no longer have fun tanking, I'm not very impactful. Every tank is experiencing this, i just so happen to get my face beaten in more than others
I play BDK and i dont have any problems with tanking in raids. The bosses do not "beat my face in" and they don't do that in m+ either. The mobs in m+ can be a different story. Tanks should be tanking, not running.
@@beiggo21 the need to kite now is not fun
Would love some more tank-centric raid fights. Even adding some possibilities for non-tank classes having tank-like rolls (as in older xpacs) for certain fights would do a lot for the tank disparity.
I main a Vengeance DH, largely 'cause I solo quest for the most part. And you're right; it was fun to play in MOP 'cause of the sheer survivability. Even in Shadowlands, I still feel largely tanky, but I do miss a lot of the utility I used to have. I have to be a lot more cautious these days. But I still love it, love tanking dungeons.
Tanking is like being a Goalie in hockey. You're gonna fail a lot like most players but theres nobody else to blame all eyes are on you. You're kind of alone.
When you're a Goalie, just like a Tank, your mistakes stick out a lot. Much more than a normal player. And you don't have a pool of player to redirect part of the blame on.
You are mostly judged by other players who do not do the same job as you, and chances are theres like 1 or 2 other players(tanks) to back you.
As a DPS player, I get away with a lot of mistakes that a Tank wouldn't get away with. I don't wipe a raid when I f*** up my rotation, I simply sh** on my dps charts, tanks can tho.
Nobody really talks about a missed pass, but people talk about a missed save for 2 weeks.
as a tank i actually miss raids like nyalotha where you could solo tank half of the raid in farm. it brought back the fun.
So true, being able to solo tank at least the first 4 bosses on farm should be a thing.
@@mjbianks you can sir. Bring more paladins for cheese mechanics
Half of the world first race was lightee jumping off the general ledge because everyone else was dying lol
This 100% is the problem with tanking. No one cares. They hardly even care if you're literally the last man alive and manage to knock out the last few killing blows and save the day.
@@illimited2 eh that's a bit much I remember on our nzoth kill people going nuts when I was able to last 5 more seconds and let the dots tick him down since we purposefully didn't have our tanks go insane as we were just on the edge.
As someone who started tanking in SL after years and years of playing only dps... I feel this so much. Completely lost motivation to play the game, don't even raid anymore because of how boring raid tanking is past progression and I only log in when my m+ team wants to do keys. Not sure what could be done to change this, but tanking feels so unrewarding at times.
Same here, our main tank quit in sl so I volunteered to tank and found prot pally and it is sooooo fun. But I'm kind of bummed because tanking is getting really bad in m+ because of the stupid kite meta and mobs in m+ hit reicdiculously hard. Like I remember doing a 2 plague fall and one of the avoidable hits almost killed me as a 215 prot palladin with SotR up and full health. It is beyond dumb.
@@sockmonkey3393 ya you supposed to avoid the tentacles
@@Hubble2013 yeah hentai told me all about that.
Switch to dps
@@Hubble2013 to be fair, if you're talking about stradamas tentacles, they are buggy asf. I got hit twice one time by tentacles that hit nowhere near me and there wasn't even any poison left on the ground underneath me, not to mention you can't even get hit by 2 tentacles at the same time if you're standing still, which I was.
I loved raid tanking. Then I met a really good healer who started bringing me to higher keys than I had done before.
And suddenly raid tanking was boring lol
Exactly why I stopped raiding... It's so boring when you can't do easy progression because of bad players. M+ is so much more fun
I quit raiding too. M+ is where the fun is for tanks.
I started this season as prot warrior, and absolutely loved playing it, but in raids its boring, and in mythic+ the pressure people put on you is unbearable. No matter who makes the mistakes, it's always your fault
Good advice for healers as you progress more and more into farm ask to under healer stuff either by assigning a healer to just dps and not heal but can be back up if required or just go with fewer healers.
I thoroughly enjoy your content, keep up the great work Max.
Im an only tank and i got so much better with m+ comming out but with that i lost almost all interest in raiding cause at my lvl (was usually in guilds who barely made ce) it is super boring and basically just waiting infront of a boss untill all my guild has learned their part when mine only is: taunt on x
Imo that’s the biggest problem of tanking in raids. It’s just so boring in most boss fights. Everyone else has to do cool boss mechanics and you just stand there, do your simplified dps rotation and taunt occasionally.
Needs to be more bosses like inerva or huntsman's dogs that gives tanks a little minigame to do while tanking and swapping. Those fights are fun on mythic. Always something to be done with 2nd and 3rd bears and having to quick stare at the images while thinking about moving the boss to adds or away from puddles makes the fight more fun. Not like hungering where the most fun tanks can have is to let stacks get a bit higher so the damage intake part is more exciting or artificer where tanks just get whacked for a bit before swapping and running away.
I play only M+ at 21+ keys but never have I been asked to join a guild in shadowlands, at the same time I get several friend requests for every group I do keys with. whereas in BFA I played UH DK and got several guilds invites when doing higher keys
I am learning how to tank atm (about 2 weeks in) and I must say its really easy to tunnel into staying alive as it is first thing you need to really work at, but I am aware of my low dps and plan on working on it now that I have learned how to keep myself alive
I needed to hear this, thanks
I miss Eternal Flame prot pally... that shit was crazy
Also, I really liked vengeance both due to the survivability aspect like you said, but also that it makes the tank just a dps as long as they have aggro. If people prefer to play dps, just make the tank do that much damage _only_ when they have aggro. That's exactly what vengeance did. It solves the problem of tank dps feeling shitty, without making it so groups bring tanks instead of dps.
I miss old frenzied regeneration from guardian in Pandaria. As bear you would always do more damage and more healing than dps and healers themselves if u got enough vengeance.
Vengeance/Resolve from both MoP/WoD felt so good. Sad to have seen it go. Demotivated me from playing Tank specs.
I've played WoW since early 2006, 99% of the time as a healer (and even a couple raids as a tank early on). I quit in legion and came back in shadowlands as a dps. it feels like a whole new game with so many more ways to maximize my play and improve. As a healer i just was like "hey we killed it yay, now i'll hate farming this fight every week while the dps worry about their parse"
The words about farm as a tank is so true, the first kill in mythic feels so good to get then you just know that you'll live no matter what and even if you try to parse damage it's mostly ignored since it's "not your job".
I mostly tank, but I do find it fun to try and increase my dps and healing parses for raids. It's nice to consistently be in the top 95% or so. It is pretty miserable sitting through pulls though waiting for dps to get their stuff together. But yes it's difficult to move up to better guilds. Mythic+ is the only more fun thing but that gets to be frustrating too after awhile because people are super elitist about io score and what what classes they pick for tanking.
Feels bad man. Career Tank here. HAd two kids, just cant play anymore : (
Could you do a video on how to learn from logs (from each roles perspective)? I’m pushing mythic and honestly not entirely sure how to learn from the logs I’m looking at. Thanks for the great content!
A big thing is to compare how many casts you have on your abilities vs someone in the top 100's casts, check the timeline to see when they hit their big CD's per fight (did they ramp up some stuff before X event, how long if ever do they hold Y ability knowing a phase change is gonna happen etc). Try and find someone of a similar ilvl to you with similar trinkets/weps so the numbers aren't drastically skewed in their favor for being more bis than you
I love to main tank. Been doing it for 10 years now. I never felt like I needed to improve my dps in order to improve dungeon/raid success. I optimize my rotation to do as much damage and threat/aggro as possible while mitigating as much incoming damage as I can, but success to me is measured by dps and healers alive at the end of the fight. I know that can get frustruating when some dps die of their own stupidity, but its still a lot less stressful than worrying about if I'm being a sweaty enough min-maxxer to top the dps charts. Some people say tanking to them is so boring, and that's fine, but I find it relaxing.
I used to be my guild's OT until one night in one of our heroic Antorus farm nights for alts, I joined as a DH and one guildie that used to be a healer joined as the MT for that raid. I loved dps'ing so much and my guildie was doing such a fine job tanking that I actually proposed him to switch roles for our main raid when BFA came. He hated taking by the time we had Uldir on farm and he ended up returning to healing duty, can't blame the man.
I always start to tank every expansion, I always quit after first raid then come back at the end again.
You just cant push yourself, no need to really look at logs.
As a dps, its so much fun on farm, you can always be alittle bit better.
Well it's also much easier to focus on improvement as a dps because it isn't even nearly as stressful as playing a tank. Especially in m+. I main a BDK but i have dps alts and it's just so fcking easy and relaxing to play dps. No pressure what so ever.
I was playing my hunter after a break from my prot warrior. You're right, DPs almost feels relaxing lol
If a tank realized this and kept motivation to get better. What are the things tanks would focus on primarily to see continual improvement
Damage, really. If you are a good tank you don't really die so the best way is to improve your damage game whilst not dropping your survivability game.:)
DKs can focus on heal parse and try to outparse healers on the raid. Maybe DHs can do that as well. Other than that, better cooldown management?
@@andrewcook_ but why would u do better cooldown management when u allready don't die?
@@vladfilip5311 if ur better at managing ur cooldowns you have more space to do damage and the healers can avoid spending mana on healing you even through somewhat heavy damage.
once you're tanky, and you literally never die, or almost never, the only thing you can improve on is damage. to help the dps check a little.
Too true, I started tanking this tier. I enjoyed playing my tank alt and doing some dungeons on her, and tanking a re-clear once or twice seemed fun also. But that was as much as I had experienced it before SL. So when the opportunity arose I stepped forward to give it a go.
Progress in CN felt enjoyable, but a couple weeks into farm I really lost the drive that had always kept me going, and pushing to improve, to the point I don't really want to tank again next tier. Since I know I would then have to keep tanking through farm, and I don't much feel like doing so.
I've gotten to the point where I think my regular m+ group has stagnated a bit, but looking for a new group that matches up with my schedule is so difficult. I was thinking of switching from heals to tank but I love healing..
everyone is different in what they want out of the game, all 3 specs. I look at tanking like being a lineman in Football. No one can name an offensive lineman but I can assure you that the running backs and quarterbacks know those names, and appreciate them. If you know you know
This makes sense. I enjoy healing on progressions. After farm starts though I want to dps instead after like 2 or 3 weeks.
I play rsham and i do feel you, even though damage matters, I’m striving for 7k+ hps always and beyond that
the vengeance buff on Garrosh Hellscream with all the trash was what tank should be feeling like that shit was fun
I've been my guild's 3rd tank for a while, when a fight requires a 3rd tank or there is a strat that uses one, I was always the one they used since I played DK. The one aspect of going from dps to tank in a fight that people rarely talk about is positioning. Keeping yourself alive is as simple as using a defensive before dbm tells you a big hit is coming, but knowing where to put the boss to best benefit the raid is more intricate than a dps player would realize. DPS players can tell when the boss is out of position sometimes, but they rarely understand why or what position would be better.
So this tier when a tank left the guild and I was asked to be the new OT, that was what I struggled to learn. It really isn't something you learn as a dps player. Even without that struggle though, playing tank was horribly boring for me. Blood does bad damage right now and is super reliant on defensives to stay alive. Keeping your health bar above 0 is something every player has to do, so its just expected. A DPS player will get praise for topping the meters just like a healer will, but nobody is gonna praise the tank for staying alive, that's just their job.
If there is nothing to work towards, and no recognition for performance, nobody is going to want to do the role, and I think that's sort of the issue. Details has a damage taken meter, and it does a pretty good job of showing how well the tanks mitigated hits they received and how they used their defensives. I think the solution to the tanking problem is most likely a social one. If dps and healers would be more appreciative of good play from tanks and call that stuff out when it happens, along with calling out the bad play, it could better motivate the tanks to improve. As it stands now though I bet very few players have a window open on details for damage taken, some don't even have healing meters on.
Take the time to compliment your tanks when they make good decisions and stay alive, it might just make a difference.
Max, what is your opinion about conserving mana to minimise overhealing vs. maxing out as much hps as possible, ignoring overhealing/mana?
Or another way to think about my question: raid utility aside, how would you compare two healers?
He kinda talked about that in another vid saying that healer logs don't really matter but if you wanna apply for a better guild you should snipe healer logs, e.g. Pumping put as hard as you possible can. And when bosses are on farm, you can cheese logs and just rotate through the healers each week.
I wish they implemented a "least" damage taken tab equal to Dmg done or Healing done in warcraftlogs, So that it sheds more light on mitigating dmg as a tank properly. ANd it should be measured only if you have aggro.
I'd like this, but at the same time there is something good about not being put under a microscope. Especially when so few people want to tank, I almost don't want them to get verbally shit on by people even more than they already do as a tank because of logs.
At the same time, there should be ways for tank players to measure progress. It's what makes dps fun. So they do definitely need something like this, as much as it might lead to some toxic situations I guess.
I would love to see the dps rotations made more interesting for most/all tank specs.
I don’t really raid anymore after getting a big boy job and traveling a lot which makes me sad. But I could straight up listen to this dude talk about the game for hours. Great content thanks so much for your effort.
Tanks don't even have to tank anymore. Just run in circles kiting all day.
I am a pretty new tank. I didn’t mind kiting at first now it’s just boring haha
It's not that they don't have to tank... It's that they CAN'T tank. There is a massive difference and one of the main reasons why people don't like tanking anymore.
@@beiggo21 but you guys are talking about retail
@@pirateclick1d169 Yes, and? You comment doesn't make any sense...
@@beiggo21 you know where I'm heading towards. play classic
This video got recommended to me again and as a healer main I'm having the same problem and why I'm considering switching to DPS next raid tier.
Tanking in 8.3 was so much fun. As Bdk you just pumped numbers in a whole, healing dmg ... But it was so broken that we runned only tank raids at a point, only tank mythic + and so on..
Solution just make tanks do the same damage as a dps in raids and mythics. (Based on damage they take so you can not just stack 20 tanks in a raid)
So bring back Vengeance
This video makes me want to tank more
I usually look at the death log when I died, but mainly to see where I messed up.
I either play solo or with a friend of mine and have just recently picked up tanking. It's a bit daunting, but I usually do decently.
And, for me, looking at the death logs usually just shows me what I did wrong. Sometimes, I know what I did wrong beforehand and just get it confirmed and sometimes its some mechanic I misplayed - like getting hit at the edge of an AoE or something.
This was a very interesting video. I'm a pvp main myself (rated BGs mostly) and I main guardian druid. One of my biggest pet peaves is when people cry about tanks being strong in pvp or that we do too much damage or shouldn't be allowed in arena. Like please let us have fun too! You need flag runners and base defenders, give some incentive for people to play tanks!
When tanking was more about threat generation and less about mitigation, it was not only more enjoyable... but it was far more satisfying and very noticeable to everyone in your dungeon/raid group.
Now, you do it because somebody has to. There is no satisfaction, I'd argue there is hardly any real enjoyment, and it is far more of an obligation trap than it was many years ago.
the problem with tanking is that shamans don't have a tanking spec I would love to tank if shaman could tank
Same
man i would love to tank as mage.
i would love to tank as warlock.
won't happen.
You could tank as a shaman during classic up to like 50, i did with rockbiter and the lightning shield or what its called. Superfun playstyle. Lacked alot of defensives but hey, it was awesomly fun to blas bosses with high dps and threat :)
I kind of feel it would be a great thing to have a tank panel or something similar to talk about what it means to tank and such. Although didn't sloot do something like that?
As a heroic raider that only did the first couple bosses for mythic building a key in m+ has been the best way for me to practice tanking or doing any spec really. For raids I'd even do lfr and normals to practice the few mechanics they still have in them even if they did no damage in there. I am really hoping I can save up enough money to get the game for me and my girlfriend since she never really did m+ before and I think she'd love it.
I open recap out of habit even if I do know how I die though. I think seeing the raw number of that thing that I failed to dodge really helps it sink in how important it is to dodge.
I started as a DPS and Healer back in classic only switching to tanking several expos later. Doing progression got me hooked and I feel in love with tanking. I totally went through a phase of complacency, and only broke myself of it when hitting a fight that I was definitely the cause of our struggles. I never want to be that person again, and that motivates me.
tanks are the bass players of world of warcraft. low barrier to entry and everyone is just happy to even have one.
Yes. Well said. Easy to get into but very hard to do it at high keys bc you are the reason it times or not and all the affixes are your problem
@@NicholasAdamsDPM well i main dps but i do +12 on my alt prot pally and if dps dont do the mechanic even if ur the best tank in the world u cant time it
exemple HOA last boss the soak
DOS all bosses need dps to do mechanic if not wipe for sure
@@yassimchenard243 failing as dps is less punishing failing as tank
@@DoffyDogg well if dps dont do certain mechanic all wipe(dps still important) must dps dont understand that doing a bit less dps to do mechanic is way more important than finish top 1 dps in the m+
for exemple i would not try to do a +7 DOS with 3 dps who dont know the mechanic cause we are NEVER gonna make it
My tanking career started in wrath, icc patch and have only done it semi hardcore with stuff like AOTC highmaul.
I still love it, but when i get back into a new season of m+ and there is a new instance, getting use to a new route can be daunting and a bit frustrating.
Because everyone expects you to lead and know the absolute best route.
im our guilds main tank, we are progressing mythic as well, i like tanking because im not a competitive person and don't care about being top dps, im just happy to play my part the best i can.
I main Prot Pally and i love finding new ways to make use of my class, things i can BoP, using blessing of spellwarding to cheese or blessing of sacrifice to help healing!
i love running M+ keys as well
I am statistically the worst dps dk, but as Blood? Unstoppable.
as a main tank I would love to have 3 tanks in a roster, sometimes everyone is just having a bad day and you need to have the chance to step out when you're not up to it the night
as a prot warrior I rely a lot on my co tank playing properly sadly I can fix messups, but that will cost down the fight... and I mess upmyself too, but how would you go into a conversation when your co-tank messes up all the time causing you to die?
in terms of death log, yeah right, I usually know 10-15 seconds before I die, that I will, and if I'm not popping a health stone, or call for an external it's my fault, I still open my deathlog (in logs) regulary to see what I can improve, there are so many subtle things that can have major implications....
oh btw, also DPS gone tank and we're "just" 6/10M
I had a ton of fun tanking as a bdk back in mists even during farm because vengenace stacking let me actually do meaningful damage as i was able to push myself more and more
LoL, This brings back memories of Tanking Heart of Fear as a Prot Pally. We would run a single tank for Wind Lord Mel'jarak. I would top both Damage, and Healing by an incredibly large margin as the tank.
One difference
Blood DK spamming Death Strike and a Blood DK using death strike after swing intervals is actually a world of difference.
Well naturally since the other is for dealing damage and the other is for mitigation.
Ready for the solution to stay away from toxicity? Everyone here in comments: Lets make a Guild and call it Maximum Chat Guild, or you know something along the lines where we all know it from these vids. Lets all get our raid sets..or PvP sets. Lets all learn new things together, new roles, classes and enjoy it.
Hell naw, you are all noobs :^)
@@Hekk. so? Noobs can't make a guild specifically designed to help other noobs learn the game?
@@OljeiKhan People who have to ask in offended tone are the reason why it wouldn't work.
@@Hekk. thank you for your insight
In my raid, my friend plays a guardian druid. We have 2 or 3 healers and he's usually our 4th healer with how much healing he freaking does. Sometimes even beating the healers its insane and I love watching it
The reason I went back to dps after gong tank is pretty much that complacency. There is a lot of enjoyment in trying to push yourself and your own dps as much as possible, and there improvements are a lot more tangible. Improving yourself as a tank is a lot more difficult to notice. So long as you don't die and you aren't a nightmare to your healers and you keep aggro. you are doing everything you can already. With a few exception (ToS Guardian druid on trash heavy fights, lol) your dps largely does not matter outside of progression, maybe you take slightly less damage, but your healers are also better geared so it all hardly matter.
“Half-assing” and your attitude on it are what separate the best from the “just ok” and it’s a mentality that has the be cultivated and nurtured.
Tanking is high pressure. You blow the positioning, miss an interrupt, wear the wrong gear, miss a cooldown... and you've got an insta-wipe.
And let's not forget the pleb dps players in pugs that think they know more than you do. The worst ones are the ones that normally play with a premade group of same people and then they go to pug groups and think the dungeons are going to run the same way with the same routes despite lacking the same level of communication. Those are the super annoying ones to deal with as a tank. They completely lack the skill of taking random players into account.
I have 2 tanks. A protection warrior (Arms main spec protection off spec), and a protection pally (always protection), and I've ALWAYS prioritized survivability.
I have to tank mythic plus in order to find a challenge that makes me want to get better, because you're right. Once you can tank something and survive it, makes it so that there are is no reason to improve.
I like mythic tanking because I like the brag of pulling crazy pulls and just coming out the other side alive knowing that I plowed through something that would kill everyone else? In other words I learned how to get a high of being a beast.
But if I don't push I get bored with it.
And I do have a ms healer - a holy priest. It's the same.
I LIKE being pushed to heal to my limit. I've always said that if at the end of the fight I have full mana and had time to dps in between, then it's not challenging enough - and I've solo healed SoS 10-man on a couple bosses. Again - that beast feeling.
This is my first season tanking. I started with primarily raiding but ended up doing mythic + almost exclusively. After progressing it just doesn’t seem as fun. But mythic plus is almost always a challenge
I recruited a 3rd tank and when I sat my worse tank to see what the new tank could do, he rage quit. It was a good thing though because the new tank was a ton better :D
I agree it's bad to immediately blame others for your deaths. But I think in non mythic first guilds, sometimes those people who get upset and blame others aren't always wrong. I know myself I get super annoyed when people are messing up mechanics and not accepting blame, but at the same time, it makes me critical to other people's play. Because of that I know when some idiot hunter runs an orb onto me it's not my fault and yet he has an immune and I don't so I'm the one getting questioned about it. So I am not going to sit there and take the blame for some dumb shit he did. All I can say is thank god for logs and being able to review fights because I can always prove my claims via the data. 2 times this raid teir I have died from not getting healing for 8 seconds with hs and hpot on cd. One day I got killed by a feral druid 3 times because everytime they would run their beam on top of me. Those analysis tools make it super easy to show those things. But to anyone at the time it just looks like not accepting blame.
Today we killed hc Dannathrius for the second time, during phase one, when having aggro, I was litereally pouring myself a drink and did not even have my hands on the keyboard, compleatly bored, yet that same fight, during phase 3 when we (me and my co-tank) pulled off the perfect possitioning it was amazing, and a degree of fun I could not find on my dps.
I think the fun part in tanking is the improvising that is sometimes needed, thinks like moving Sludge due to pools around melee, or phase 3 Dana when we we need move and adept to orb placement
Well I’ve been a tank since ICC, I only go for AOTC. I don’t try for CE. Having said that, I love tanking in a way to work on my skill set, to improve my understanding of my class. I love being the one who sets the pace and direction. It is hard to tank in m+ because of toxicity. Anyway, love your videos Max. Love tanking and will continue to.
if you are tank in a guild, you are stuck tanking till the end ! meanwhile, they all be like " i don't need this boss with this char, gonna log my reroll "
Yeah or the "I only need these 3 bosses so i'm gonna leave after them". Like, who the fuck do you think you are? This is a social activity... If you are going to be a selfish prick, don't bother coming at all. I actually have one friend is a high ilvl disc priest and he was in a raid with us. Then came a time when there was no benefit for him to be in the raid on that character and we had too many healers to begin with and needed more dps, he said he will come with his 181 ilvl warlock alt and it was so satisfying when everyone else agreed that we didn't need his low ilvl alt in the raid and so he was basically booted.
Not to mention tanks require the most commitment to raids. If yo uare a tank and don't show up to the raid, you are going to be replaced very quickly because there are only 2 of you so finding a quick and temporary replacement isn't easy. Not even nearly as easy as finding a replacement for a dps.
I play a demon hunter, and I face two options:
Option 1: play as a tank and just know that no one cares
Option 2: play as dps and get absolutely destroyed on single target by virtually everyone
Option 3: reroll to another class if you are so worried about your parsing
@@silentguilt in my experience people that are playing the class they want to play aren't worried about their overall performance but worried about getting kicked out of instances and never getting gear cause of the min max meta
@@dannymoontattoos Well you either need to find people to play with who don't care about the meta, or play something that is meta. This is true in every online game, not just WoW. You need to understand that playing something off-meta is going to be more difficult and decide whether playing what you enjoy is worth that or not.
@@silentguilt it's true it exists in every game, but the wow community is the least forgiving for not playing meta... But it is a conscious decision to play something outside of the meta. Still wish people weren't so picky about miniscule differences in performance. I remember in BFA I was kicked out of a group after being with them for 3 hrs when I was in the top 5 dps. Their reasoning was even though my damage was good, it wasn't good enough for the damage my class could've been doing. XD they were actually mad I didn't have any raid gear on- hence the reason I even wanted to give the raid a go. Luckily I do have a IRL friend to play with but still, so many rude ass people on the PVE side of the game.
I agree 100% with tanks enjoying the game more when they can push damage. I tank in Final Fantasy for our raid group because I'm expected to survive just enough to not impact my dps rotation. In WoW, my goals as a tank are literally do not die and keep aggro on everything. I have no expectation of doing damage beyond what I need to keep aggro and it does feel kinda boring on raid bosses where I have comfortable threat.
yeah, I remember Naowh as a Havoc DH main :D
"Some of the best tanks in the world don't do mythic plus" -- Dubious, discuss.
If you add *for raiding*, then I'm inclined to agree. Overall? How can you be the best overall, if you don't do all activities?
You only need to do +14's each week for maximum gear from Mythic plus (and you don't even need to time them). If you're a mythic raider, you're going to breeze through +14's each week to get your vault maxed out. A lot of people probably do their weekly requirement and then log. They're not the people trying to push >+20 keys and get better every week.
I think the main problem with mythic+ is the lack of rewards for pushing past a certain point. Once you’ve done all your +15s in time for the mount there’s not much of an incentive to go higher unless you care about your raider.io score
Because raiding has historically been, and still is the gold standard of PvE achievement.
@@endocry That is the belief that I question. I think it's suspect to assert without doubt that mythic raiding is the most challenging content in the game.
As a long time Holy Paladin who switched to Blood in Legion, I do not find any of this to be reality for myself at least.
There is something just in my mind that loves what tanking is.
Its not just a role. Its being responsible. Its allowing the DPS to do their jobs, and the healers to be able to be consistent.
Good tanking strokes the ego and satisfies the part of my mind that wants to know that I fulfilled my role to help others fill theirs.
Historically in my guild, tanks were always the person you needed around the most.
If you wanted to do anything, and your tanks weren't around, it would likely not get off the ground.
That is ultimately why I switched, and likely why I will never leave the role now.
I am some one who can be around a lot and loves to help others in every way I can.
I'd do a normal raid if I had to, as long as I know the people in that raid recognize these things.
But I'm sure it helps that we usually progress the whole way, and of course, I absolutely adore Blood DK in M+.
Mop Ret with lego dps cloak was pretty fun to tank with.
I think about this every day as I love tanking. This wasnt the case in vanilla/tbc/wrath... health and armor were always the criteria
I believe that recruiting a new tank is good. You make the other 2 tanks be wary that they are not irreplacable and that there are ppl who wish to grab a spot they want. That SHOULD in theory make them want to improve so that they dont get replaced. Now that's an ideal scenario and I assume in reality most permanent tanks start malding over new tank recruitments but I think this is a childish behavior. Dunno tho, this is my opinion I'm not in any elite guild and I don't know how every guild handles these matters.