I think the most important conversation was when Joel first wakes up after being knocked out by the Firefly while trying to revive Ellie. Joel asks Marlene to let him talk to Ellie before she has the operation proceed. Marlene refuses and sends him packing or tries to anyway. That seems to point to Marlene's uncertainty of how Ellie would respond if awakened and given a choice first. Think how different it would have played out if Marlene was confronted with Ellie's refusal instead of just making the choice for her. I think it was reasonable for Joel to wish to hear from Ellie before forfeiting her life on Marlene's word. I don't see why the operation could not wait long enough to give her a choice if Marlene was so sure. As for the very end when Ellie asks Joel to swear to the truth I think she just wanted the truth. I don't think she was aware that her life would have been over if based on Joel's choice. Remember, she was never told that was an option. She went straight from being unconscious to the back seat of the car driving away. Her rift with Joel is a trust issue because he lied to her and if he would lie about that could she trust him in on anything else that Joel arbitrarily decided to keep from her. I think in a true post-apocalyptic world trust and faith in those around you is the ultimate commodity in a relationship where everything else inconsistent and shaded in grey.
Those are a lot of good points, Vincent! I think the fact that Ellie wasn't fully revived/woken up before the surgery was also due to eagerness on the fireflies' part. As Marlene mentioned, they'd been on a hellish trip across the country and then finally when they arrived in SLC Joel had brought the solution to their ultimate goal for the past 20 years to them. I don't think any of them, even Marlene even cared about her opinion on the matter, and certainly not Joel's. If she was willing to kill Joel, the man who made it all possible by bringing her there, I'm sure they'd just kill Ellie as well even if she had pleaded with them not to. And yeah, as I mentioned in the video she didn't know what happened and what could've happened. But the fact that she saw through his lie obviously told her something was up. I definitely still believe she's weighed down by survivors' guilt but I do agree that there's trust is going to be one of the main issues between her and Joel going forward.
TheiPadCat Ellie’s not stupid, she knows the story that Joel told her is far-fetched at best and absolutely ridiculous at worst. The chances of them finding multiple other people like her in the span of a year and them coming to the conclusion that nothing could come from it is infinitesimal. If Cordyceps immunity was that common,they would’ve already found immune people possibly even before Ellie was born. It would’ve been more believable if Joel told her that they had done everything they could but they weren’t able to replicate her immunity. You can tell by her body language that she doesn’t buy it,but she stays quiet. Because one of the main things that shapes Ellie’s character is her fear of being alone and being abandoned. She knows that he’s lying to her,but she also knows that there’s nothing that she can do about it. So she’d rather remain passive then confront him and risk her relationship with him.
At the end of the game Ellie says "I'm still waiting for my turn" meaning that she wanted to die for all the people that were bitten before (that's why she mentioned Riley, Tess and Sam) she felt guilty about the fact that she's ammune, she thinks that her life should have finished the day she was bitten and it's unfair to her that she is still alive and her best friend it's not anymore with her, i think she wanted to sacrifice herself to safe man kind because she didn't have any other reason to live.
Yeah survivor’s guilt is a safe bet I think. I mean while she might not necessarily would have wanted to sacrifice her self. That same survivor’s guilt could probably easily have made her very gullible and open to the suggestion were she ever presented with the choice. Like, let’s say if Marlene had actually asked and tried to convince her instead of proceeding with the surgery immediately.
I'd also put the dream about her being on the plane as a possible look into what Ellie's ideas were about living or dying. I think it was about her being in control of a situation that felt a lack of control. With no one to fly the plane they were doomed to die just like humanity was doomed if she didn't step up and get to the fireflies. It had to be for something like she said. She didn't think she was sacrificing herself though. But I could definitely see her do that if given the option but Joel I think does the right thing and decides for her. Ellie was in no position to make that decision because of her age or mental state at the time
That is a really good point sable! It’s very subtle and could easily be dismissed just like how Joel says “well dreams are weird”. But there are tons of cases of this subtle kind of storytelling all over tlou. I doubt the conversation was out there just to state the obvious that Ellie had never been on a plane and I think you hit the nail on the head here. And I agree, a traumatised 14 year old is in no position to decide whether or not she should live or die.
@@TheiPadCat it could also be her feeling of not being able to cope with what David did and the whole winter taking care of Joel and feeling like she had to fly the plane in a metaphorical sense. I think it fits for both well
You’re right yeah. I don’t see why it couldn’t be both. But Ellie’s distant behaviour at the bus station is definitely a result of her trauma during winter. Doesn’t mean she can’t be nervous or confused over the whole cure thing too though.
sable mae one thing about Ellie she was a lot wiser and smarter than her age. She learned and adapted very quickly in that environment. Yes, Joel made the decision to keep her alive but my thoughts she knew she was the cure and to make all the pain go away she was willing to die by any means necessary by the time she got to the fire flies. She saw too many people she was close to die since the outbreak.
@@djkidgeeo but she was impulsive and was under a tremendous amount of stress from the weight of her purpose,losses,taking care of Joel and David. That's alot for any 14 year old to process let alone an adult. She was more mature than most but still not in a good position to make the right choice for herself or the world. Joel wasn't either though
Great video! You make good points either way, but I still think Ellie did not think in dying for the cure. In the tunnel near the hospital she says to Joel that he could teach her to swim. So in my oppinion she never though of dying at the hands of the Fireflies.
Thank you Gilvan! And yeah I know, you can look at it both ways, which was kind of the point of this video haha. But if you consider her future plans and look at it from that perspective, well then she couldn’t have wanted to die since how is she gonna learn how to swim or whatever else she wants to do then?
I've always thought Ellie never knew about the fact that cordyceps grows all over the brain, because she was unconscious after almost drowning. In this case she never faced the choice "sacrifice herself or not to sacrifice" . Am I missing something?
No you didn’t miss anything, perhaps a better title for this video would’ve been “what would Ellie have wanted?”. What I’m trying to do is discuss is that if Ellie were presented with the choice of either dying for the cure or not what would she do?
Well at the end when she explains Joel "..im still waiting for my turn..you dont understand", she means she supposed to be dead and the only reason for her to live trough all the deaths of her friends if she can save the world....even at all cost. I dont think it matters if she knew it or not, she was willing to do it. The only thing that could pull her out from this is Joel but he did not want to accept her as her daughter until David's dead. After that everything turned upside down, Joel was chasing Ellie's acceptance but she was so mentally broken at that point she just wanted to be over with, i even think she wanted to die. That is until the very last scene, she accepts Joel's lie in exchange of his love. Also Ellie being in awe with every memory of the old world around her during the entire game kinda feels like...when you are on your death bed and you try grasp everything you might missed during your life.
Joel made a big mistake not telling her that to save humanity (which is not 100% sure) the price she has to pay is death so if she knew this i believe she wanted to live...great video...keep up the good work...more about TLOU part II theories
I think her decision would’ve changed depending on who she was convinced or told by. Marlene could probably have asked her to sacrifice herself and she would have. Or vice versa with Joel. Also thank you spadw!
I’ve played the game six times and as anyone knows that has played it multiple times you don’t always get all of the conversation options every time. On my sixth play through while combing the ruins of the University of East Colorado (whatever it is) Ellie asked Joel if he thinks it will hurt. He asks if he thinks what will hurt (I’m paraphrasing here). She explains when they take the cure from her. Joel casually responds that they’ll probably just draw some blood and run a few tests. Ellie responds by mentioning that at the military prep school they gave her a vaccination shot that was painful and as she put it, it sucked. To me that doesn’t sound like a girl that’s expecting to be killed to save mankind. It’s interesting because it only came up as a conversation that one time. Edit: Oh he did mention it. That’ll teach me to half listen while playing with the dog. Thanks for bringing that scene up because I’ve watched a lot of videos on the subject and no one brings that conversation up.
Yeah it’s really a shame how many of the conversations are very hard to trigger, means most people will miss out on extra little bits of, often character building, lore. Though it also makes for more replayability. But yeah, as I said in the video and as you mentioned here. Someone who cringes at the thought of having some blood drawn for tests doesn’t sound like someone ready to give up their life. Though it’s also worth to point out that this conversation takes place prior to the trauma she experienced at lakeside with David. Things did change a lot for her after that.
I think ellie wanted to save the world but she didn't know that will cost her life . Even joel was shocked when he knew that Fungicides coverd all of her brain . And he asked marlene to let him talk to ellie but she refused . And i think joel didn't want to lose ellie thats why he lied to her . Great video btw and more with tlou part 2 theories
I think a good way to deal with that ambiguity would be to give the choice to the player. The whole game could be about Ellie discovering the truth, becoming aware of the sacrifice required to produce the cure, and coming to terms with it. In the end, you, the player, would make the choice, whether or not she would sacrifice herself. But knowing Naughty Dog, I think they would never do that. They always tell very straight-forward stories, and it´s never open to the player to change the canon. Besides, that would probably annihilate the chances of a possible sequel.
Hmm. I’m not sure if I like that or not. I did a video about potential choices in part II a while ago where I mentioned how major choices being left to us the player would sort of ruin the integrity of the character. But since Ellie could really have picked anything here, meaning neither option would be out of character for her I guess it could work. But you’re also right about ND never leaving such a thing to the player.
Thank you Andrew! Right back at you from Sweden! I’m very happy with the awesome people that are here already but the channel has had some insane growth the past few weeks so who knows where it’ll end up :)
TheiPadCat I’ve noticed and you deserve it. Keep up with the good work and can’t wait for us to experience the second part of this beautiful game. Cheers !
Like you, I'm not sure where the evidence points. I'm equally as sure that ND did that on purpose and for multiple reasons. There is one thing that bugged me from the very first playthrough and that is my belief that Ellie ended up on that operating table without being fully informed. She may not have even been given a choice about it. It would not surprise me if the Fireflies spiked her "last meal" to knock her out all without Ellie's knowledge or consent. We all wanted to see the Fireflies as the good guys, but they were just as ruthless and bad as the FEDRA guys.
Yeah she was never informed. She went unconscious in the flooded highway tunnel and woke up the day after in the car when all of the events at the hospital had already transpired. This you can figure out because she asked what happened and was confused over what she was wearing as soon as she woke up, and Joel explained how they found the fireflies. Had she been presented with the choice though I’m still not sure what she’d have picked. I think that deep down she may have wanted to live, but with the survivors guilt she’s having I think she’d be gullible to be convinced into doing it anyways.
It’s not like Joel was completely lying, it was a half truth I know not a lot of people know about the recorder, but there it talked about experiments on lots of different children. And how she the 11th or 12th
Oh I know what recorder you’re talking about. While yes the fireflies had been trying to synthesise the vaccine for the past 20 years with tons of different subjects - That very same surgeon also states how Ellie’s case of CBI is like nothing he’s ever seen before. Of course we don’t know if it would’ve lead to a cure since, well Joel takes Ellie before they can perform the surgery. But chances are, with how Ellie stood out from all of those other attempts that they would’ve been able to. It’s not a white lie, but it is a lie nonetheless. He says it hasn’t lead them anywhere, but that’s false since it lead them to Ellie and almost being able to get the cure and he says they’ve stopped looking for it - which is also outright false. I get what you mean though.
There was absolutely no reason not to simply wait until Ellie had revived from her near drowning…and ASK her. At that point her showing up at all was a miracle to the Fireflies, there was no pressing reason not to allow her to regain consciousness. Then ASK her. As subsequent events show, she likely would have agreed, and she could have had a day or two to say goodbye to Joel and convince HIM not to intervene. But No, Jerry wanted to be the hero, the big shot surgeon. It was HIS action, not Joel’s, that set everything hurtling toward disaster. He had it coming, and so did Marlene…who gave her word to look after Ellie, then consented to her murder.
Thank you, someone finally helped me put my thoughts about this into words. So when part II came out, I had mixed feelings about it for obvious reasons, but then I came to appreciate the game more later on, I realized it's art and I just took it in. I realized it's not a bad game at all to be honest, but there was one thing that I couldn't forgive part II. And it's that Ellie clearly states that she would have wanted to die for the cure. Because I think it would have been 100 times more interesting if she realized she doesn't really want to die, and she forgives Joel despite what he did, because she knows how much she means to him. But even that is not close to being as interesting as the first game was, where we don't know what she would have wanted exactly and how she would have reacted. It works because like you said, it makes it a lot harder to choose a side as clearly morally superior and also because you, the player doesn't want Ellie to hear the truth either after what Joel had done, because, while you don't know how she would react exactly, you're afraid it would crush her. Which just makes you realize how much the game puts you in Joel's shoes and how much it made you care for Ellie, while also clearly showing that what he had done to humanity is terribe. You want to know what she would have wanted, but also don't, because the very fact that you don't know makes the last of us a truly thought provoking game. At least that was my experience and these are my thoughts. This is the reason the last of us is my favourite game, and my best arguement why tlou part II was completely unnecesarry
Good content! And it definitely makes you think what Ellie really wanted. I think in the beginning Ellie wanted to live after the vaccine but as her and Joel went through so much hell going across the country watching Tess, Sam, Henry, even Riley die in front of her & let’s not forget assaulted by David. She would have sacrificed herself at nothing for a the cure.
Thank you Noke! And yeah, all that trauma would work it’s way into the mind of anyone despite how much of a hardened survivor they may be. I mean imagine going through the heat of puberty at the same time as all of that happening? All of those emotions and living hell could easily be a recipe for wanting to give up and sacrifice yourself.
I also think we have to question the purity of Marlene's thoughts, as well as, the competence of the Fireflies in general. Marlene seemed to care more about her personal survival in the end when she pleaded with Joel not to kill her. Also if the Fireflies were so competent, how come they had no one capable of protecting humanities last great hope and instead were willing to sit tight and wait for her arrival? Finally, if they got the vaccine what guarantees were there that they could be trusted to not play "god", choosing who was saved or that they were strong enough to stop another faction from taking it away from them. I guess to me the Fireflies seemed neither capable or altruistic at the end of the day. The Fireflies had seemingly been pushed to the edge of extinction and had themselves taken on a veneer of militaristic terrorist's.
I did actually make a video on this topic a while back if you're interested. I think it summarises my thoughts on it way better than if I were to write it here. Here's a link to it if you want to watch it: ruclips.net/video/j7cmtOlPQ6Q/видео.html
I think it is all about her agency being taken away. Joel took it away by rescuing her and killing all the Fireflies, and the Fireflies took it away by keeping her unconscious and going ahead an operating on her without even asking/telling her. If she was presented with the knowledge that she would die if the cure was to be extracted, she would give her life because she is wracked with survivor's guilt (her bringing up Riley, Tess, Sam, and Henry). And that would be her decision. Or maybe she didn't want to die. That would be her choice as well. So all she feels is that she didn't have a choice. Her agency was taken away. It is all about agency.
Yeah good point. I think deep down, regardless of mental state everyone ultimately wants to live. But as I mentioned in the video and as you mentioned here she’s burdened by survivor’s guilt and even though she may have technically wanted to live she could’ve easily been manipulated into it by Marlene.
“And despite having known Ellie for countless years…” (03:17) Count ‘em - 14 years. It doesn’t look like your making content for this channel at the moment, but I’d enjoy hearing what you thought of the HBO show.
This is a really interesting topic! I think it's something that unfortunately gets overlooked often. Maybe Ellie would have willingly went through with the surgery if it meant saving humanity. I know that Neil Druckmann admitted that in Part 2, she'll know that Joel lied to her. But what if she still doesn't know they were going to kill her and Joel saved her life?
It is, isn't it? I think she really could've gone either way. Would probably depend on who was trying to convince or manipulate her. I'm sure Marlene could've gotten her to sacrifice herself, just like Joel managed to convince or at least get her to accept his lie at the end.
of course she does not know what she wants she is 15(remember it's been a year), but I think she was back and forth, I mean sometimes she wanted to die and sometimes she wanted to live, maybe she was ready to die but, she also was hoping for Joel to save her or for anyone to make the desicion, it is not easy to decide at any age, the most important think is that, two adults are deciding what hey want for a teenager...
Seems like it's both; she wanted to live on and learn from Joel but she also wants to have her (and her friends) suffering be for something.. kids always want to have their cake and eat it. Ellie is a badass, but at this point still a kid and therefore immature in some respects. The story and characters couldn't be more artfully composed. Joel and Ellie see the world completely differently, only in this scenario could or would they care about each other.
Yeah I definitely agree with that. If Joel was out of the picture and she had been presented with the choice by Marlene, I think she easily could’ve been convinced or manipulated into giving her life for the vaccine. Or vice versa like what actually happened in the story with Joel’s lie at the end.
I think Ellie wanted to be the cure and to live but Joel found out about the first vacuum has failed like it said in the opening credit's when the outbreak was still kinda early no clicker's just runners and if you go to one of the rooms in the fireflys hospital you'll find a recorder and it'll say something about it trying it out on a bunch of also immune people but they died and it didn't work and when your almost at the end of the story Joel wants to go back to Jackson with Ellie to see Tommy and Maria and give Ellie a life with hot showers and hot meals and a blanket and no need to sleep with a gun or switchblade next to her a nice life something he couldn't give Sarah and he realizes that there world cannot be saved after so many vacuums and yeah
Well we don't know for sure of course. But the recorder also says that Ellie is like nothing they've ever seen before, implying that she could've been the key to the cure. When it comes to Joel and his choice to save Ellie I think it boils down to selfish reasons. He can't take losing another daughter and doesn't care what he has to do to avoid it
I recommend getting a Standard (digital). 1. You can't export a soundtrack to the PC. 2. You can only view Digital Artbook with PS4. But If you are okay with these then get a Deluxe! :)
I think if given the choice at the hospital, Ellie would have chosen to give up her life for the chance to find a vaccine. But that’s at the hospital. I think once they arrive outside the camp in Jackson, what Ellie wants is for Joel to be strong and make it easy for her to make peace with what happened. Because while she doesn’t know exactly what happened, I think she knows Joel is lying about something. But if Joel reassures her without any doubt, it makes it possible for her to accept the lie and move on.
I bet that the opening of TLOU2 will have Ellie being rescued by Fireflies before drowning and eventually getting convinced by Marlene about giving up her life for Humanity, followed by the ending of part one where it's shown that Ellie knows Joel is lying. This might be a game changer for the plot as far as we can see. And I think the guilt of her surviving over the rest of the humanity is going to be a major driving force for her character in this part.
She's a little girl she can't make a decision over life and death like that, so her surrogate Father made the decision for her! Doesn't matter what circumstances your life is in, your life is still worth saving.
Well Part 2 made it clear that yes she would choose die for the vaccine or cure even though she didn't know. The HBO adaptation tries to get that more clear.
Can we just pretend part 2 never happened and come up with a better part 2? I really enjoy your videos and would love to theorize a better story. You seem to be the authoritative expert on this subject.
This is the ultimate question! I’ve been waiting literally years to see this discussed. It always seems to get glossed over that Ellie wanted to help, but nobody ever told her she would have to die. Marlene never told her, as she presumably didn’t know until the doctors told her that day, but nonetheless she gives the OK for the surgery, without Ellie’s consent. Removing Ellie’s agency over her own life was precisely what made Joel’s decision the correct one. Flawed by his lie to her, but the right choice.
It is! Ultimately, I don't think Marlene would've ever cared about what Ellie thought or wanted anyways. Her life was the solution to the goal and problem the fireflies had been working on for the past 20 years. There is no way they'd ever let her go.
Tossing aside part II, I think Ellie was pretty much capable of sacrifice herself because of two reasons: fist of all she saw many people she cared about being bitten and her immunity weights on her for this. Secondly she did A LOT of terrible things to keep herself alive because of her purpose, and at some point she realise that the only way to redeem herself is for her to be useful. Besides, I cannot even immagine what being immune could mean for a teen who thinks it’s her greatest purpose to be the cure for mankind. These reasons still affects Ellie in part II especially after finding out the truth.
Yeah thats really the reason why she was so mad at joel, because she found out that joel decided if the fireflies should kill her or not. No matter what joel would have done, either killing the fireflies or accept marlene’s decision to kill ellie, i think ellie wanted it to be her choice, no matter what. Joel took that from her, aaand stole her chance to make a cure. I also think that we get to understand that ellie ultimately understand why joel saved her, which make her realise that the past is past, and theres nothing to do about it. That why she wanted to watch a movie with joel the day after, but he got killed. Thats is what motivates ellie to go after abby, because abby made her life, which was shit already, to be fucking demolished. Thats why she loves dina even more, because that’s everything she has left.
@@eltiko2670 She wanted it to be her choice, so she get's pissed off at... joel... not the people that didn't wake her up before putting her under the knife.
The issue is that Ellie wasn't informed on what making a cure would've meant. She was told by Joel that they'd've just drawn blood. And, judging by the notes and recordings we find in the hospital, I think it's safe to say that Ellie didn't really ever wake up. Or if she did, she didn't know what was happening. Marlene surely would've commented on how difficult it would've been to have delivered that news to Ellie. Even after the massacre, when Marlene confronts Joel in the garage, she says that it's "what she'd want". Not "what she chose". Instead, she thought she would've had her blood drawn, and maybe have hung out for a while as they developed a cure. I think she would've wanted the choice of whether or not she would've sacrificed herself. Instead both sides decided to take her ability to choose away. The Fireflies kept her unconscious and unknowing. Joel stopped the Fireflies and took away Ellie's ability to save the world. Going into Part 2, we even see this as Joel and Ellie's relationship falters. I think Ellie was always suspicious but couldn't nail anything down until she returned to the hospital. And that's when her frustration is realized. She didn't see Joel saving her life, but rather him destroying her purpose for existing and suffering while lying about it. That he violated her autonomy in basically the worst way possible.
Well it *was* the same strain of CBI. But as Marlene tells us in part I “the growth inside her, has somehow mutated” It’s not a different strain, it just mutated upon reacting to her immune system
This isn't true, as fluids during sex would also 'infect' other people. Ellie had this fear with her first GF, Cat. Cat didn't turn after kissing and they unassumingly had sex so Abby isn't infected.
You interpreted, This story WELL! You are a smart CAT. Druckman's story, is compelling. the Ambiguity, is REAL. Hats off, to all involved, in the production, of these, two games. This story, easily could have been made, for movies or Tv series. The fact that, this story, is in an actual GAME, makes it remarkable. While critics, struggle with, the complexities, of characters and controlling their, own emotions, they miss, the Story. Shame. I am glad, You get it.
I wouldn't say so necessarily. She was clearly very angry at Joel when she found out for not giving her the choice, and was obviously feeling a tremendous amount of guilt for the people who have been infected since. Being in that state doesn't mean you're always honest with yourself. If she was asked against to sacrifice herself, it's still hard to know if she'd accept or not
Your Friendly Cynic I agree that anything after the fact is a hypothetical and it is much easier to say “I would have sacrificed myself” after the fact when it is no longer an option. It was never guaranteed that the operation would have definitely saved humanity or that the Fireflies would have used the cure to save everyone and not leverage its power.
@@blindpilot_v1 That was a thing in TLOU 2 that did annoy me a little bit. Is that in the first game the Fireflies are pretty morally dubious, they bomb buildings and kill soldiers indiscriminately, they liberated a city only for it to get overrun with infection, and even though we don't see much of the fireflies in this game, they just seem to be treated like angles, like how wholesome they try to make Abby's dad knowing that Joel kills him, and then they're acting as the heroes Abby is looking for at the end
Your Friendly Cynic I completely agree with you. TLOU2 takes a few liberties in regards to rose tinting past events and not giving a balanced perspective. The scene where Abby helps her father justify not waking Ellie by saying that she would want to have the operation if it were here to find a cure. Which again is another hypothetical that a character doesn’t have to follow through with.
![ROSÉ (로제) - number one girl [더 시즌즈-이영지의 레인보우] | KBS 241129 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A9oByH9Ci24/mqdefault.jpg)
I think the most important conversation was when Joel first wakes up after being knocked out by the Firefly while trying to revive Ellie. Joel asks Marlene to let him talk to Ellie before she has the operation proceed. Marlene refuses and sends him packing or tries to anyway. That seems to point to Marlene's uncertainty of how Ellie would respond if awakened and given a choice first. Think how different it would have played out if Marlene was confronted with Ellie's refusal instead of just making the choice for her. I think it was reasonable for Joel to wish to hear from Ellie before forfeiting her life on Marlene's word. I don't see why the operation could not wait long enough to give her a choice if Marlene was so sure.
As for the very end when Ellie asks Joel to swear to the truth I think she just wanted the truth. I don't think she was aware that her life would have been over if based on Joel's choice. Remember, she was never told that was an option. She went straight from being unconscious to the back seat of the car driving away. Her rift with Joel is a trust issue because he lied to her and if he would lie about that could she trust him in on anything else that Joel arbitrarily decided to keep from her.
I think in a true post-apocalyptic world trust and faith in those around you is the ultimate commodity in a relationship where everything else inconsistent and shaded in grey.
Those are a lot of good points, Vincent!
I think the fact that Ellie wasn't fully revived/woken up before the surgery was also due to eagerness on the fireflies' part. As Marlene mentioned, they'd been on a hellish trip across the country and then finally when they arrived in SLC Joel had brought the solution to their ultimate goal for the past 20 years to them. I don't think any of them, even Marlene even cared about her opinion on the matter, and certainly not Joel's. If she was willing to kill Joel, the man who made it all possible by bringing her there, I'm sure they'd just kill Ellie as well even if she had pleaded with them not to.
And yeah, as I mentioned in the video she didn't know what happened and what could've happened. But the fact that she saw through his lie obviously told her something was up. I definitely still believe she's weighed down by survivors' guilt but I do agree that there's trust is going to be one of the main issues between her and Joel going forward.
TheiPadCat Ellie’s not stupid, she knows the story that Joel told her is far-fetched at best and absolutely ridiculous at worst. The chances of them finding multiple other people like her in the span of a year and them coming to the conclusion that nothing could come from it is infinitesimal. If Cordyceps immunity was that common,they would’ve already found immune people possibly even before Ellie was born. It would’ve been more believable if Joel told her that they had done everything they could but they weren’t able to replicate her immunity. You can tell by her body language that she doesn’t buy it,but she stays quiet. Because one of the main things that shapes Ellie’s character is her fear of being alone and being abandoned. She knows that he’s lying to her,but she also knows that there’s nothing that she can do about it. So she’d rather remain passive then confront him and risk her relationship with him.
This has a lot more meaning to it after we found out Ellie’s reaction when Joel finally uncovered the truth
At the end of the game Ellie says "I'm still waiting for my turn" meaning that she wanted to die for all the people that were bitten before (that's why she mentioned Riley, Tess and Sam) she felt guilty about the fact that she's ammune, she thinks that her life should have finished the day she was bitten and it's unfair to her that she is still alive and her best friend it's not anymore with her, i think she wanted to sacrifice herself to safe man kind because she didn't have any other reason to live.
I think that was just survivor´s guilt, doesn´t necessarily means she would die for a cure.
Yeah survivor’s guilt is a safe bet I think. I mean while she might not necessarily would have wanted to sacrifice her self. That same survivor’s guilt could probably easily have made her very gullible and open to the suggestion were she ever presented with the choice. Like, let’s say if Marlene had actually asked and tried to convince her instead of proceeding with the surgery immediately.
If the fireflies had given Joel the option to talk to Ellie and ask her what she wanted everything could've been avoided.
I'd also put the dream about her being on the plane as a possible look into what Ellie's ideas were about living or dying. I think it was about her being in control of a situation that felt a lack of control. With no one to fly the plane they were doomed to die just like humanity was doomed if she didn't step up and get to the fireflies. It had to be for something like she said. She didn't think she was sacrificing herself though. But I could definitely see her do that if given the option but Joel I think does the right thing and decides for her. Ellie was in no position to make that decision because of her age or mental state at the time
That is a really good point sable! It’s very subtle and could easily be dismissed just like how Joel says “well dreams are weird”. But there are tons of cases of this subtle kind of storytelling all over tlou. I doubt the conversation was out there just to state the obvious that Ellie had never been on a plane and I think you hit the nail on the head here.
And I agree, a traumatised 14 year old is in no position to decide whether or not she should live or die.
@@TheiPadCat it could also be her feeling of not being able to cope with what David did and the whole winter taking care of Joel and feeling like she had to fly the plane in a metaphorical sense. I think it fits for both well
You’re right yeah. I don’t see why it couldn’t be both. But Ellie’s distant behaviour at the bus station is definitely a result of her trauma during winter. Doesn’t mean she can’t be nervous or confused over the whole cure thing too though.
sable mae one thing about Ellie she was a lot wiser and smarter than her age. She learned and adapted very quickly in that environment. Yes, Joel made the decision to keep her alive but my thoughts she knew she was the cure and to make all the pain go away she was willing to die by any means necessary by the time she got to the fire flies. She saw too many people she was close to die since the outbreak.
@@djkidgeeo but she was impulsive and was under a tremendous amount of stress from the weight of her purpose,losses,taking care of Joel and David. That's alot for any 14 year old to process let alone an adult. She was more mature than most but still not in a good position to make the right choice for herself or the world. Joel wasn't either though
Great video! You make good points either way, but I still think Ellie did not think in dying for the cure. In the tunnel near the hospital she says to Joel that he could teach her to swim. So in my oppinion she never though of dying at the hands of the Fireflies.
Thank you Gilvan! And yeah I know, you can look at it both ways, which was kind of the point of this video haha. But if you consider her future plans and look at it from that perspective, well then she couldn’t have wanted to die since how is she gonna learn how to swim or whatever else she wants to do then?
I've always thought Ellie never knew about the fact that cordyceps grows all over the brain, because she was unconscious after almost drowning. In this case she never faced the choice "sacrifice herself or not to sacrifice" . Am I missing something?
No you didn’t miss anything, perhaps a better title for this video would’ve been “what would Ellie have wanted?”. What I’m trying to do is discuss is that if Ellie were presented with the choice of either dying for the cure or not what would she do?
Well at the end when she explains Joel "..im still waiting for my turn..you dont understand", she means she supposed to be dead and the only reason for her to live trough all the deaths of her friends if she can save the world....even at all cost. I dont think it matters if she knew it or not, she was willing to do it. The only thing that could pull her out from this is Joel but he did not want to accept her as her daughter until David's dead. After that everything turned upside down, Joel was chasing Ellie's acceptance but she was so mentally broken at that point she just wanted to be over with, i even think she wanted to die. That is until the very last scene, she accepts Joel's lie in exchange of his love.
Also Ellie being in awe with every memory of the old world around her during the entire game kinda feels like...when you are on your death bed and you try grasp everything you might missed during your life.
Joel made a big mistake not telling her that to save humanity (which is not 100% sure) the price she has to pay is death so if she knew this i believe she wanted to live...great video...keep up the good work...more about TLOU part II theories
I think her decision would’ve changed depending on who she was convinced or told by. Marlene could probably have asked her to sacrifice herself and she would have. Or vice versa with Joel. Also thank you spadw!
I’ve played the game six times and as anyone knows that has played it multiple times you don’t always get all of the conversation options every time.
On my sixth play through while combing the ruins of the University of East Colorado (whatever it is) Ellie asked Joel if he thinks it will hurt. He asks if he thinks what will hurt (I’m paraphrasing here). She explains when they take the cure from her. Joel casually responds that they’ll probably just draw some blood and run a few tests. Ellie responds by mentioning that at the military prep school they gave her a vaccination shot that was painful and as she put it, it sucked.
To me that doesn’t sound like a girl that’s expecting to be killed to save mankind. It’s interesting because it only came up as a conversation that one time.
Edit: Oh he did mention it. That’ll teach me to half listen while playing with the dog. Thanks for bringing that scene up because I’ve watched a lot of videos on the subject and no one brings that conversation up.
Yeah it’s really a shame how many of the conversations are very hard to trigger, means most people will miss out on extra little bits of, often character building, lore. Though it also makes for more replayability.
But yeah, as I said in the video and as you mentioned here. Someone who cringes at the thought of having some blood drawn for tests doesn’t sound like someone ready to give up their life.
Though it’s also worth to point out that this conversation takes place prior to the trauma she experienced at lakeside with David. Things did change a lot for her after that.
I don't care what Ellie thinks or wants I want her to live! 😤😤
Thank you for the Video! I like it!
I’m glad you liked it Davilas! And I think everyone agrees ;)
I think ellie wanted to save the world but she didn't know that will cost her life . Even joel was shocked when he knew that Fungicides coverd all of her brain . And he asked marlene to let him talk to ellie but she refused . And i think joel didn't want to lose ellie thats why he lied to her . Great video btw and more with tlou part 2 theories
Yeah Joel definitely lied to not lose Ellie. And thank you abdo :)
I think a good way to deal with that ambiguity would be to give the choice to the player. The whole game could be about Ellie discovering the truth, becoming aware of the sacrifice required to produce the cure, and coming to terms with it. In the end, you, the player, would make the choice, whether or not she would sacrifice herself.
But knowing Naughty Dog, I think they would never do that. They always tell very straight-forward stories, and it´s never open to the player to change the canon. Besides, that would probably annihilate the chances of a possible sequel.
Hmm. I’m not sure if I like that or not. I did a video about potential choices in part II a while ago where I mentioned how major choices being left to us the player would sort of ruin the integrity of the character. But since Ellie could really have picked anything here, meaning neither option would be out of character for her I guess it could work. But you’re also right about ND never leaving such a thing to the player.
Amazing video! Really love the content and hope you can bring out more. Your channel deserves way more views and subscribers. Love from USA 🇺🇸
Thank you Andrew! Right back at you from Sweden! I’m very happy with the awesome people that are here already but the channel has had some insane growth the past few weeks so who knows where it’ll end up :)
TheiPadCat I’ve noticed and you deserve it. Keep up with the good work and can’t wait for us to experience the second part of this beautiful game. Cheers !
Like you, I'm not sure where the evidence points. I'm equally as sure that ND did that on purpose and for multiple reasons. There is one thing that bugged me from the very first playthrough and that is my belief that Ellie ended up on that operating table without being fully informed. She may not have even been given a choice about it. It would not surprise me if the Fireflies spiked her "last meal" to knock her out all without Ellie's knowledge or consent. We all wanted to see the Fireflies as the good guys, but they were just as ruthless and bad as the FEDRA guys.
Yeah she was never informed. She went unconscious in the flooded highway tunnel and woke up the day after in the car when all of the events at the hospital had already transpired. This you can figure out because she asked what happened and was confused over what she was wearing as soon as she woke up, and Joel explained how they found the fireflies.
Had she been presented with the choice though I’m still not sure what she’d have picked. I think that deep down she may have wanted to live, but with the survivors guilt she’s having I think she’d be gullible to be convinced into doing it anyways.
It’s not like Joel was completely lying, it was a half truth I know not a lot of people know about the recorder, but there it talked about experiments on lots of different children. And how she the 11th or 12th
Oh I know what recorder you’re talking about. While yes the fireflies had been trying to synthesise the vaccine for the past 20 years with tons of different subjects - That very same surgeon also states how Ellie’s case of CBI is like nothing he’s ever seen before. Of course we don’t know if it would’ve lead to a cure since, well Joel takes Ellie before they can perform the surgery. But chances are, with how Ellie stood out from all of those other attempts that they would’ve been able to. It’s not a white lie, but it is a lie nonetheless. He says it hasn’t lead them anywhere, but that’s false since it lead them to Ellie and almost being able to get the cure and he says they’ve stopped looking for it - which is also outright false. I get what you mean though.
There was absolutely no reason not to simply wait until Ellie had revived from her near drowning…and ASK her. At that point her showing up at all was a miracle to the Fireflies, there was no pressing reason not to allow her to regain consciousness. Then ASK her. As subsequent events show, she likely would have agreed, and she could have had a day or two to say goodbye to Joel and convince HIM not to intervene.
But No, Jerry wanted to be the hero, the big shot surgeon. It was HIS action, not Joel’s, that set everything hurtling toward disaster.
He had it coming, and so did Marlene…who gave her word to look after Ellie, then consented to her murder.
Thank you, someone finally helped me put my thoughts about this into words. So when part II came out, I had mixed feelings about it for obvious reasons, but then I came to appreciate the game more later on, I realized it's art and I just took it in. I realized it's not a bad game at all to be honest, but there was one thing that I couldn't forgive part II. And it's that Ellie clearly states that she would have wanted to die for the cure. Because I think it would have been 100 times more interesting if she realized she doesn't really want to die, and she forgives Joel despite what he did, because she knows how much she means to him. But even that is not close to being as interesting as the first game was, where we don't know what she would have wanted exactly and how she would have reacted. It works because like you said, it makes it a lot harder to choose a side as clearly morally superior and also because you, the player doesn't want Ellie to hear the truth either after what Joel had done, because, while you don't know how she would react exactly, you're afraid it would crush her. Which just makes you realize how much the game puts you in Joel's shoes and how much it made you care for Ellie, while also clearly showing that what he had done to humanity is terribe. You want to know what she would have wanted, but also don't, because the very fact that you don't know makes the last of us a truly thought provoking game. At least that was my experience and these are my thoughts. This is the reason the last of us is my favourite game, and my best arguement why tlou part II was completely unnecesarry
Love the videos man keep doing your shit💯
Glad to hear it James! And I will :)
Good content! And it definitely makes you think what Ellie really wanted.
I think in the beginning Ellie wanted to live after the vaccine but as her and Joel went through so much hell going across the country watching Tess, Sam, Henry, even Riley die in front of her & let’s not forget assaulted by David. She would have sacrificed herself at nothing for a the cure.
Thank you Noke! And yeah, all that trauma would work it’s way into the mind of anyone despite how much of a hardened survivor they may be. I mean imagine going through the heat of puberty at the same time as all of that happening? All of those emotions and living hell could easily be a recipe for wanting to give up and sacrifice yourself.
I also think we have to question the purity of Marlene's thoughts, as well as, the competence of the Fireflies in general. Marlene seemed to care more about her personal survival in the end when she pleaded with Joel not to kill her. Also if the Fireflies were so competent, how come they had no one capable of protecting humanities last great hope and instead were willing to sit tight and wait for her arrival? Finally, if they got the vaccine what guarantees were there that they could be trusted to not play "god", choosing who was saved or that they were strong enough to stop another faction from taking it away from them. I guess to me the Fireflies seemed neither capable or altruistic at the end of the day. The Fireflies had seemingly been pushed to the edge of extinction and had themselves taken on a veneer of militaristic terrorist's.
I did actually make a video on this topic a while back if you're interested. I think it summarises my thoughts on it way better than if I were to write it here. Here's a link to it if you want to watch it: ruclips.net/video/j7cmtOlPQ6Q/видео.html
@@TheiPadCat Thank you. I am new to your channel and will check it out. I enjoy your content and find your thoughts on TLOU well considered.
Great video as always!! keep them coming please!
Thank you Pedal! I will :)
Love from india 🇮🇳bro! U r too good!!! 🙌
Right back at ya mrityunjay! Appreciate the kind words and support :)
Nice to see I'm not the only one from India😁
Mrityunjay bhai kaha sey ho?
mrityunjay gour tseriesucks
@@thechrisussy3068 yaa it does; but does it even matter! 😂
@@thechrisussy3068 I'm from India, and according to me also, T-Series sucks dic*s
the 1 dislike is Marlene
“You’d only come after her”
Instead they came for Joel.
I think it is all about her agency being taken away. Joel took it away by rescuing her and killing all the Fireflies, and the Fireflies took it away by keeping her unconscious and going ahead an operating on her without even asking/telling her.
If she was presented with the knowledge that she would die if the cure was to be extracted, she would give her life because she is wracked with survivor's guilt (her bringing up Riley, Tess, Sam, and Henry). And that would be her decision. Or maybe she didn't want to die. That would be her choice as well. So all she feels is that she didn't have a choice. Her agency was taken away.
It is all about agency.
Yeah good point. I think deep down, regardless of mental state everyone ultimately wants to live. But as I mentioned in the video and as you mentioned here she’s burdened by survivor’s guilt and even though she may have technically wanted to live she could’ve easily been manipulated into it by Marlene.
Interesting take!
Keep up the good work 👍🏽
I will, than you for the support Kyle!
“And despite having known Ellie for countless years…” (03:17) Count ‘em - 14 years.
It doesn’t look like your making content for this channel at the moment, but I’d enjoy hearing what you thought of the HBO show.
The second game shows another side of Marlene and how she truly feels about this situation, same with Dr. Anderson. They seem less malicious for sure
This is a really interesting topic! I think it's something that unfortunately gets overlooked often. Maybe Ellie would have willingly went through with the surgery if it meant saving humanity. I know that Neil Druckmann admitted that in Part 2, she'll know that Joel lied to her. But what if she still doesn't know they were going to kill her and Joel saved her life?
It is, isn't it? I think she really could've gone either way. Would probably depend on who was trying to convince or manipulate her. I'm sure Marlene could've gotten her to sacrifice herself, just like Joel managed to convince or at least get her to accept his lie at the end.
of course she does not know what she wants she is 15(remember it's been a year), but I think she was back and forth, I mean sometimes she wanted to die and sometimes she wanted to live, maybe she was ready to die but, she also was hoping for Joel to save her or for anyone to make the desicion, it is not easy to decide at any age, the most important think is that, two adults are deciding what hey want for a teenager...
Seems like it's both; she wanted to live on and learn from Joel but she also wants to have her (and her friends) suffering be for something.. kids always want to have their cake and eat it.
Ellie is a badass, but at this point still a kid and therefore immature in some respects.
The story and characters couldn't be more artfully composed. Joel and Ellie see the world completely differently, only in this scenario could or would they care about each other.
Yeah I definitely agree with that. If Joel was out of the picture and she had been presented with the choice by Marlene, I think she easily could’ve been convinced or manipulated into giving her life for the vaccine. Or vice versa like what actually happened in the story with Joel’s lie at the end.
@@TheiPadCat #BillDLC Let's Get On With It - Bill's New City Digs Expansion Pack
😂
Im surprised you did not talk about ellie saying you kill the few too save the many is shitty
Awesome vid 🔥🔥
Thank you Therebel! Appreciate the support :)
I think Ellie wanted to be the cure and to live but Joel found out about the first vacuum has failed like it said in the opening credit's when the outbreak was still kinda early no clicker's just runners and if you go to one of the rooms in the fireflys hospital you'll find a recorder and it'll say something about it trying it out on a bunch of also immune people but they died and it didn't work and when your almost at the end of the story Joel wants to go back to Jackson with Ellie to see Tommy and Maria and give Ellie a life with hot showers and hot meals and a blanket and no need to sleep with a gun or switchblade next to her a nice life something he couldn't give Sarah and he realizes that there world cannot be saved after so many vacuums and yeah
Well we don't know for sure of course. But the recorder also says that Ellie is like nothing they've ever seen before, implying that she could've been the key to the cure. When it comes to Joel and his choice to save Ellie I think it boils down to selfish reasons. He can't take losing another daughter and doesn't care what he has to do to avoid it
Guys I need ur help! I CAN’T CHOOSE BETWEEN (the last of us part 2)
DELUXE OR STANDARD! PLEASE COMMENT.
I recommend getting a Standard (digital).
1. You can't export a soundtrack to the PC.
2. You can only view Digital Artbook with PS4.
But If you are okay with these then get a Deluxe! :)
Last of us part 2
Ellie wanted to sacrifice herself.
I think if given the choice at the hospital, Ellie would have chosen to give up her life for the chance to find a vaccine. But that’s at the hospital. I think once they arrive outside the camp in Jackson, what Ellie wants is for Joel to be strong and make it easy for her to make peace with what happened. Because while she doesn’t know exactly what happened, I think she knows Joel is lying about something. But if Joel reassures her without any doubt, it makes it possible for her to accept the lie and move on.
I bet that the opening of TLOU2 will have Ellie being rescued by Fireflies before drowning and eventually getting convinced by Marlene about giving up her life for Humanity, followed by the ending of part one where it's shown that Ellie knows Joel is lying. This might be a game changer for the plot as far as we can see. And I think the guilt of her surviving over the rest of the humanity is going to be a major driving force for her character in this part.
That’d be cool but it’d be weird to see things that happened in the first game with the better graphics of the second game.
I think the wanted the option to choose for her self
She's a little girl she can't make a decision over life and death like that, so her surrogate Father made the decision for her! Doesn't matter what circumstances your life is in, your life is still worth saving.
we know the answer now that the second game came out
Do we really
Well Part 2 made it clear that yes she would choose die for the vaccine or cure even though she didn't know.
The HBO adaptation tries to get that more clear.
Can we just pretend part 2 never happened and come up with a better part 2? I really enjoy your videos and would love to theorize a better story. You seem to be the authoritative expert on this subject.
This is the ultimate question! I’ve been waiting literally years to see this discussed. It always seems to get glossed over that Ellie wanted to help, but nobody ever told her she would have to die. Marlene never told her, as she presumably didn’t know until the doctors told her that day, but nonetheless she gives the OK for the surgery, without Ellie’s consent. Removing Ellie’s agency over her own life was precisely what made Joel’s decision the correct one. Flawed by his lie to her, but the right choice.
It is! Ultimately, I don't think Marlene would've ever cared about what Ellie thought or wanted anyways. Her life was the solution to the goal and problem the fireflies had been working on for the past 20 years. There is no way they'd ever let her go.
Tossing aside part II, I think Ellie was pretty much capable of sacrifice herself because of two reasons: fist of all she saw many people she cared about being bitten and her immunity weights on her for this. Secondly she did A LOT of terrible things to keep herself alive because of her purpose, and at some point she realise that the only way to redeem herself is for her to be useful. Besides, I cannot even immagine what being immune could mean for a teen who thinks it’s her greatest purpose to be the cure for mankind. These reasons still affects Ellie in part II especially after finding out the truth.
Yeah thats really the reason why she was so mad at joel, because she found out that joel decided if the fireflies should kill her or not. No matter what joel would have done, either killing the fireflies or accept marlene’s decision to kill ellie, i think ellie wanted it to be her choice, no matter what. Joel took that from her, aaand stole her chance to make a cure. I also think that we get to understand that ellie ultimately understand why joel saved her, which make her realise that the past is past, and theres nothing to do about it. That why she wanted to watch a movie with joel the day after, but he got killed. Thats is what motivates ellie to go after abby, because abby made her life, which was shit already, to be fucking demolished. Thats why she loves dina even more, because that’s everything she has left.
@@eltiko2670 She wanted it to be her choice, so she get's pissed off at... joel... not the people that didn't wake her up before putting her under the knife.
That Roman Fella Yeah exactly, thats what Joel saw and killed the fireflies. Joel is the big brain here
The issue is that Ellie wasn't informed on what making a cure would've meant. She was told by Joel that they'd've just drawn blood.
And, judging by the notes and recordings we find in the hospital, I think it's safe to say that Ellie didn't really ever wake up. Or if she did, she didn't know what was happening. Marlene surely would've commented on how difficult it would've been to have delivered that news to Ellie. Even after the massacre, when Marlene confronts Joel in the garage, she says that it's "what she'd want". Not "what she chose".
Instead, she thought she would've had her blood drawn, and maybe have hung out for a while as they developed a cure.
I think she would've wanted the choice of whether or not she would've sacrificed herself. Instead both sides decided to take her ability to choose away.
The Fireflies kept her unconscious and unknowing. Joel stopped the Fireflies and took away Ellie's ability to save the world.
Going into Part 2, we even see this as Joel and Ellie's relationship falters. I think Ellie was always suspicious but couldn't nail anything down until she returned to the hospital. And that's when her frustration is realized.
She didn't see Joel saving her life, but rather him destroying her purpose for existing and suffering while lying about it. That he violated her autonomy in basically the worst way possible.
Another video explained Ellie isnt immune but was bitten with different strain of virus. Abby bit her finger off. So Abby has it too.
Well it *was* the same strain of CBI. But as Marlene tells us in part I “the growth inside her, has somehow mutated”
It’s not a different strain, it just mutated upon reacting to her immune system
This isn't true, as fluids during sex would also 'infect' other people. Ellie had this fear with her first GF, Cat. Cat didn't turn after kissing and they unassumingly had sex so Abby isn't infected.
You interpreted, This story WELL! You are a smart CAT. Druckman's story, is compelling. the Ambiguity, is REAL. Hats off, to all involved, in the production, of these, two games. This story, easily could have been made, for movies or Tv series. The fact that, this story, is in an actual GAME, makes it remarkable. While critics, struggle with, the complexities, of characters and controlling their, own emotions, they miss, the Story. Shame. I am glad, You get it.
Why do you use so much commas though?
Even Ellie didn't wanted to be in TLOU 2
Shame the second game got ruined
Well... unfortunatley the game tells you pretty clearly in TLOU2 that she wanted to sacrifice herself.
I wouldn't say so necessarily. She was clearly very angry at Joel when she found out for not giving her the choice, and was obviously feeling a tremendous amount of guilt for the people who have been infected since. Being in that state doesn't mean you're always honest with yourself. If she was asked against to sacrifice herself, it's still hard to know if she'd accept or not
Your Friendly Cynic I agree that anything after the fact is a hypothetical and it is much easier to say “I would have sacrificed myself” after the fact when it is no longer an option.
It was never guaranteed that the operation would have definitely saved humanity or that the Fireflies would have used the cure to save everyone and not leverage its power.
@@blindpilot_v1 That was a thing in TLOU 2 that did annoy me a little bit. Is that in the first game the Fireflies are pretty morally dubious, they bomb buildings and kill soldiers indiscriminately, they liberated a city only for it to get overrun with infection, and even though we don't see much of the fireflies in this game, they just seem to be treated like angles, like how wholesome they try to make Abby's dad knowing that Joel kills him, and then they're acting as the heroes Abby is looking for at the end
Your Friendly Cynic I completely agree with you. TLOU2 takes a few liberties in regards to rose tinting past events and not giving a balanced perspective. The scene where Abby helps her father justify not waking Ellie by saying that she would want to have the operation if it were here to find a cure. Which again is another hypothetical that a character doesn’t have to follow through with.
@@blindpilot_v1 It did seem a bit manipulative
I'd say WLF is fairly morally dubious, like with Isaac and his torture and stuff
They should have killed off Ellie and made a new story with Abby
Your profile is giving me nightmares