Thanks SO much for making this video, and to everyone who commented! This is exactly what happened, without a doubt. When I lived at home we had my small workshop fitted with tonnes of power plugs for this reason, but having to constantly make up for terribly planned rentals and insufficient mains outlets caused me to start doing dodgy practices. I definitely paid the price and am thankful it was something like this. I'll be creating an update and will link back to this excellent explanation.
Astonishing informative. Floating ground is in reality an open ground. The part about the neutral INSIDE THE PRINTER being connected to the printer frame. unbelievable, who knew. thank you.
The primary reason people break off the ground in the USA is they live or work in an old building that only has 2 pin outlets. There is no ground wire in the outlet box. Replacing the 2 pin with a modern 3 pin outlet just makes things worse. Yes you can now plug in 3 pin plugs directly but you give the impression to people its a grounded outlet which is a code violation. Someone dies from this you are libel. If the house burns down the insurance company doesn't have to pay. Why? Because you caused a no code situation with your DIY. The point of this discussion is safety and not getting shocked. NEC has an approved way to deal with old two pin outlets. You can use a GFCI ruclips.net/video/16KObgI44UE/видео.html. You still don't have a grounded outlet but the GFCI is a super fast circuit breaker specifically designed to protect people from getting shocked. If you live in the US, you already use GFCI protection anywhere there may be water (Bathroom, Kitchen, Garage, outdoor outlets).
Been learning about floating neutral thanks to the generator world and for me it's preferred since i have installed an inlet box to back feed my main panel. Seeing as the panel has a neutral bond this is preferred since you can only have 1 neutral bond in the whole system. I did however make a bonded neutral plug to use in one of my 120V sockets when using the generator as a stand alone unit when im using it for powering plugged in tools/devices for the reasons you showed in the video.
Great video. I think you did an excellent job of showing what can go wrong. I grew up in a very old house that only had two wire receptacles and I remember my dad using one of those cheaters. As a kid, I had no idea of the danger but I remember being forbidden to touch it - not because it was unsafe but because they were hard to find and my dad was afraid I'd lose it. I agree with your warnings about using cheap extension cords. They often start out poor quality and get worse as they age.
Great explanation. I hope people take note for their own safety. The main take-away is, if you mess with the Ground, the Live will bite you in the ass.
Nice explanation, and thanks for the credit! Some notes about power strips: The cheap ones have springy metal strips that connect all of the outlets in parallel. If you constantly plug and unplug stuff, you can dislodge the ground strip or it can loose its springiness, and you can loose the ground connection and never know it. For shop or lab use, it's better to use one with individual sockets rather than metal strips. Tripp Lite makes suitable ones that have been used in industry and electronics labs for many years.
I have seen so many over the years go poof it isn't funny as yes there are high quality ones out there (and I have and use some) and I list this in the description sections of this and prior e-mail. Also again thanks on the impedance, that was it and I was a bit surprised!
Yup. The Tripp Lites you link to are the ones I recommend, too. It's always confusing when the measuring instruments you use affect the thing you're measuring, but it does happen from time to time.
I had just built what they called "spider boxes" which are outlets mounted in a metal box. They are ganged and a GFI can be installed with them. Does that make any sense to circumvent the power strip issue?
A spider box is generally used as a temporary way to distribute power at a construction site or similar location, normally contains GFI or at least standard circuit breakers, and normally connects to a 220V source rather than a standard 110V receptacle. Overkill in my opinion for 3D printers. The main advantage over an inexpensive power strip would be that a spider box has separate receptacles rather than the aforementioned springy metal strips, but this is true of industrial-grade power strips like the ones Joe has linked to as well. A GFI is always a good idea, especially in a basement, garage, or shop that might have a damp or wet floor, but receptacles in these locations should already have GFI protection. Either way, you need to use a high-quality cord (preferably an "outdoor" type, sometimes marked SJOOW) and route it where it won't be stepped on or tripped over.
Prior to Romex - The armor in the BX cable goes to ground; it goes to ground because it terminates in the metal fuse box (breaker box) which is then grounded sometimes to plumbing. Even the early romex was attached to the metal gang box.. so even there a 2 prong plug would be relatively safe.
My printers are plugged into a power strip, plugged into a power strip, plugged into a power strip, plugged into a UPS, plugged into an extension cord :) To be fair, the extension cord is a HUGE construction-grade cord (10AWG wires) with a built in ground fault indicator, the UPS has a ground fault indicator on it, and they're plugged into the only grounded outlet available in this 110+ year old building (grounding spike is right outside my window). It's not ideal, but sometimes you have to work with what you have.
Does the frame have to be electrically connected to the power supply, or is it just the fact that the metal power supply sits in the metal frame? If you insulate your power supply from your printer, will that stop the frame from becoming 'live'? Can we add in a ground connection from the frame to the ground of the power supply - is that safe to do and worth doing? I have a metal frame P3Steel with a classic power supply. Want to make sure any trace of electricity in the frame is safely routed away. Thanks Steve
Depends on the printer like this JGAurora A4 it all one body so the mains can short to the body and technically the physical connection of the PS to the chassis "should" be enough. Whereas the CR-10 the PS and frame separated so the frame "should" be isolated. Technically the correct thing to do would be to add a separate earthen ground to the chassis to ensure protection...
I just ordered a power strip to plug two printers in. I got a smoke detector kill switch i was going to plug in as well so it was going to go like this: printer > power strip > kill switch remote > extension cord desk table plug (drill a hole in your desk so you have a table top outlet) > wall outlet. all of which are grounded 3 prong. are you saying this would probably be a bad idea, and i should be going directly into the wall instead? This freaks me out and makes me not even want to touch the printers. Im down in my basement just in my socks and PJ's and dont want to get lit up by something.
People pull the ground pin out because the old homes aren't grounded. I used to do that to all three-prong cords. Now I just buy the three prong outlets and pretend I have ground lol. yayyyy
Lol i got used to getting slightly zapped from the printer exposed metal , i use a 3 prong plug and have a good ground not sure why it happens , same happens when i switch to off grid solar
Thanks for this video. Now, I really have a problem here. In the Netherlands it's pretty common with older houses that they only have a grounded outlet in the bathroom and the kitchen. Nowhere else in the house I hve a grounded outlet. Not to mention I have only 3 outlets per room, so the only way I can run 10+ printers here is by using these extension cords. I never experienced a problem with that, but this could lead to a problem, I guess.
10 plus printers? Yes you have a problem waiting to happen. My suggestion would be to have electrician come and add a couple circuits and 10 is a lot of printers and if your bleeding them altogether there can be issues. As you have two issues if I am reading this correctly, current draw and grounding. To fix the first you need circuits and if pressed for two you could add a secondary chassis ground by installing a ground rod out side...
@@stevehill1802 I honestly don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. He rants about how power strips make everything "electrically common", but its no different to the wiring in your walls, except for maybe additional breakers and mice. He doesn't talk about his isolation transformer built into the strip (which probably removes the ground without the adapter), and as you say, and potential between ground and neutral means something is really wrong.
Thanks and since the cathode is connected directly to the chasis very much so! This was one of my most popular video in the eBay K40 Laser play list...
Thanks for this but if I have purchased a Chinese power supply that has no earth connection, does this mean I should throw it away? I thought you were supposed to just wire the earth from the power cord to the power supply case? Is that safe? Got me worried now, any advice greatly appreciated! Thanks
I assume your in the US? The third prong is (or should be) an earthen ground as Neutral which is the return for the "load" is sometimes referred to as the "electrical" ground. So if your PS has Load, Neutral and Ground and all three connections are properly wired you should be good. However if you doubts or question, contact a local electrician...
The neutral to the ground connection inside the printer? That y capacitor seems to be the culprit. Who knew, who would of known. Observation: My 1970 model pop up toaster has FLOATING GROUND. No safety ground, no third plug connection. Designed this way on purpose? No safety ground because of OPEN heating element? We need an explanation why that y connection is in the printer!! Wonderful video. Thank you.
All your high voltage wiring terminals should be insulated .I noticed that none of them are and these can easily come off and also pose a risk to anyone working on it ,qualified or not.
Thanks for commenting! Actually they are with a clear plastic, I talk about this a bit more in the prior video ruclips.net/video/fSNMQxkpf18/видео.html :-)
The main point is that unless you are trained you should not be messing with mains voltages. However if you had a hot lead come off and touch the case it would trip the breaker immediately.
Great video! You consistently have the most informative videos on 3D printing. A thought: for printers like the CR-10 that have a separate control box (but use these same power supplies), would a replacement control box made of plastic be safer? If so, would the interior still need to be lined with conductive material (for instance, copper tape) and connected to ground in case of a loose live wire, or would it be better not to line it at all? Sorry if these are stupid question, EE (especially AC circuits) was never my strong suit.
Thanks for commenting! With a proper ground it is safe and this is the key message as many people either discount the ground or worse forget about all together.
I remember seeing those three prong to two prong adapters as a kid years ago, I never knew they could be dangerous. I think I understand a bit, but my question is, what else can be dangerous if plugged into a power strip if the ground in the strip is faulty? I'm guessing everything? Because computers, Playstation, Xbox, and other popular items all have power supplies like the 3D printer right? Last question, if you know the ground on a power strip is good, is it still safe to use the strip with a 3D printer, or should it just be avoided?
So anything with three prongs that plugs into the power strip is at risk as there are a couple things at work, (1) each additional connection [plug to socket connection] means (a) higher resistance and (b) the potential for a lost ground. Then there is (2) the quality of the strip or extension cord as many of the cheap unit some form of mystery metal and this mean higher resistance and resistance means heat and we all know what happens with heat. Now is all of his stuff evil? No, if used properly they can be safe as let's talk about usage for a second. Power strips and extension cords were meant for temporary application not permanent, in this they aren't meant to run a device long term. For example you use an extension cord for circle saw, your saw isn't a constant draw. Now someone is going to read this and just all over me and say "but a 3D printer doesn't draw as much power as say a table saw". Correct, BUT most power tool these days are double insulated and the potential of lost ground having an effect is low, second, the additional sockets on a power are for convenience and not continued use. As this is my biggest concern and where Angus ran into an issue as he plunged multiple printers into one strip for long term use. Local electrical code specifies circuit loading for a home circuit and a power stip or worse yet strips throw a major monkey wrench into this mix. Whew, so in short if you buy a quality power strip and use it for what it was in intended then your good. However if you simply plug a bunch of printers into, it well your mileage might vary. Hope this helped...
Whow, that power strip is weird (or at least, totally different from what i've seen in the Netherlands). Some differences i notice: 1. The power plugs are made in such a way that you cannot reverse them. You do have AC out of the wall over there, right? 2. What's a transformator socket? 3. An on/off switch as a reset switch? Overload protection? Also wondering, the thing seems to have a proper, thick insulation, but even so you don't recommend them for devices like 3D printers, which would draw about 400W max i'd guess? When similarly insulated extension cords over here don't even get warm with a 1000w connected? Is that due to the 220v over here?
Plugs in the US are polarised for Load and Neutral which is a bit different then Europe (as I spend a lot of time there and even over saw the building of a Datacenter just outside of AMS). The transformer socket just as more room for a wall wart :-) In this case its just an on/off switch but they think it sounds fancy to say reset. Thickness can be deceiving, the quality of metal in the wires and connector is poor and leads to higher resistances and oxidation (i.e. poor connection lead to heat). Then open it up and it goes down hill then we start taking about quality...
Luckily we have very good ground connections in the EU. It's almost impossible for the ground to fail. Even if the cord is pulled out, first disconnects live, second disconnects neutral, and lastly disconnects ground. I'm glad I plugged my printer into a grounded socket, around here depending on how old the house is, there might not even be a ground in any socket, *except the kitchen, toilets and washroom.* Those are always mandatory in every house.
Thanks for commenting as I do a lot of electrical work in the EU (Netherlands, Germany and UK) have seen as many ground failure there as the US and that is the point. Its easy for a ground system failure so it should always be approached with care. Also in the US a proper plug, the Hot & Neutral are polarized and the ground tip longer so that it engages first and disengages last.
You said that this is not a safe way to test for this issue. What would be a safe way to test that the device (such as the 3d printer) is appropriately grounded?
Thanks for commenting! For clarity I am saying not to do what I am "doing" as what I am is demonstrating the leakage of the Cy capacitor from neutral to ground. The biggest thing as I point out in the video is you want to test to ensure your ground is working and effective and to do this you would need an outlet tester like you see in the video (here is a link: amzn.to/2FB6rn9 ). If you wanted to take this a step further, while unplugged take a multimeter and touch it to bare portion of the metal case of your printer and the ground pin of the power cord with your meter in continuity mode (or ohms) and you should see a connection or really low ohm reading and your good. Hope this helps!
Is it just a camera artefact, or does your power strip look a little yellowed by the indicator LED, between the switch and first outlet? That's also a fire hazard, it suggests the MOV inside is nearing the end of its life, drawing constant current, and heating, possibly leading to it catching fire. Yet another reason to use these type only for light intermittent duty.
Yes, as your adding and "plug" and length of wire can do two things, (1) cause a break in the ground as happened to Angus over at Makers Muse, (2) compromise your ground do to added resistance of both the wire and extra connection.
I live in Egypt, we have plugs with 2 not 3. How do I connect things that have plugs with 3? I do use a converter from 3 to 2, but you said it is not good. Also plugs with 2, do they have ground?
I would check the country electrical codes for earth grounding and install a ground rod and wiring inline with them as local / regional codes will typically define length and placement of the rod as well strapping...
I have had this problem with my computer so I pluged a groud wire to the central heating plumbing (copper).The best way is to wire it to a copper rod in a ground hole outside the house with charcoal.
I removed the third pin from the plug (i.e. the ground), now in this is where ends up is outside to a ground rod but this is not a separate chassis ground...
If you can't achieve a ground, I would not use it in that room as these are Class I appliances which means if the main shorts to the metal case, the breaker or fuse will not trip as there is no ground path and therefore you (or your family) will become the ground path. Would suggest consulting with a local electrician to review your options to correct...
DIY3DTECH.com True, but I guess that will be true for any desktop computers as well? In our apartment, we now have ground in every room, but this is a storage room in the basement where there’s an outlet.
DIY3DTECH.com Exactly. Will do some measurements before I use it. To be fair though, ground is typically only on bathrooms and kitchens in addition to rooms fully underground on all houses here before 2000 or so. Now all new installations have ground, same with special appliances that MUST have ground. But it’s not allowed to have both grounded and not in the same room (so you can touch both).
Nice video mate, and a really good explanation :) Ever opened up a power strip to see how they work? pretty scary stuff! Umm, if you do open one up chuck it out straight away.
Oh Yes! I 've have taken a lot of negative comments over my position power strips and especially "cheap ones" however yes have taken them apart and seen many "flash" in a huge of smoke. I am in the IT/Data Center business and these things are major banned! What folks also miss in in the cheap one they use "cheap metal" oxidizes easy and builds resistance and of course resistance build heat and the rest in the smoke!
While you were unplugging stuff, I also noticed how you can pull the plug out "halfway" and expose the pins... That seems to be a terrible idea, especially with children?!
DIY3DTECH.com No, the actual plug and socket. The socket is flat, and the pins are exposed all the way. That you pull it out slightly, and the pins are exposed - kids could get their fingers behind and touch it.
It's not just "in the olden days" -- you're always supposed to screw in the ground tab into the outlet. -- If you leave it unscrewed, you're doing it wrong.
LOL! My hope is today it is unneeded as we to use these at Grandparents home like 30 years or so ago and this one pretty old and if dig deep enough I sure I have bakelite version :-)
@@tedlahm5740 Yes it only works on a outlet that has a grounded box. Regarding older two pin outlets with no ground: If the outlet is inside a metal box with metal conduit to the panel then you have a ground source for the screw. If your house has plastic or older dark bakalite boxes they are not a ground source. If you do have metal boxes and there is no metal conduit running back to the panel ,you have no ground source either. So using the adapter screw to face plate may not give you a ground source.
John Croucher you would need a ground installed for the receptacle you intend on using your printer. Japan solved the issue with most of their appliances being double insulated instead of grounded. The US was the same way before the 1970’s.
Here is a good link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appliance_classes as these are Class I devices and as dsnsdn points out yes an external grounding rod would be the solution...
I was pondering that as you demonstrated, where I live RCD is standard in homes (30mA trigger), meaning that that much leakage from the unit would be a PITA... any tricks to get around it? Can the circuit in the unit handle switching the Y-Cap to an X-cap mode?
Feel free to disagree, but I don't think of a floating ground as the same as an open ground. This video uses the terms interchangeably. Example of a floating ground is a generator like a popular Honda. If you use it for power, and attach a surge protector like one found on RV's, the surge protector will shut off the power to the RV because it doesn't see a ground. There's nothing wrong with the generator. The solution is to create a "Bonded Neutral" plug, which is nothing more than a Edison Plug with a short jumper from G to N. Remember, at your home, the ground and neutral are bonded in the breaker panel! All this plug does is recreate that with a generator. I agree about power strips. I found one with Hot and Neutral reversed! How could that happen? The outlet was fine! The power strip had "surge protector" built in and I surmise that somehow caused it. TOSS!
I am not sure there is anything to "disagree about" as when you look up "floating ground" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_ground) you find: Most electrical circuits have a ground which is electrically connected to the Earth, hence the name "ground". The ground is said to be floating when this connection . Technically ground always exists, its a matter of impedance to reach...
a "safe" example is if you take a Google Audio dongle (microusb) powered and power it from most portable speaker usb power outputs ... result just awful noise :-( floating earth
if you check out some of the older EEVBlog RUclips channel teardowns of chinese Soldering irons (and more expensive stuff) it's a bit shocking 1. how often the earth connection to the external cable is non existent or loose/poorly connected 2. transformer isolation is so poor its ridiculous ... likewise if you check out the BigClive RUclips channel his teardowns of cheap chinese devices are eyepopping (he coined the phrase "deathdaptor" for the country plug adaptor shipped with many chinese products) .. if you check out BigClive's RUclips channel check out the Killer USB charging camping lanterns - KAPOW!
So this guy is here talking about electrical safety and yet he is wearing jewelry (wedding ring) while working on energized circuits, Any real electronic tech knows better than this, never wear conductive jewelry especially rings while working on energized circuits
You should really have measured from case ground to actual ground (as Angus does in his video) rather than from neutral to ground. I know that practically it's the same but you want to replicate the conditions.
Thanks for commenting! As you point out its "practically it's the same" so the idea was to show the bleed as the source of "shock" because at the time there was big hoopla that these were "unsafe" and really was a comparison as too this came out in response to Angus's initial video of where he was "shocked". I know he later did a similar video after mine...
Why? This is a textbook example of what you would expect for a "Y" capacitor and even proven in real life my Angus at Makers Muse which is what inspired this video...
Ground is very important. I don't have the same setup as you. But made a small video explaining my thoughts. This is why you should use a low impedance voltage test vs a normal voltage check. ruclips.net/video/MCae-I1nL90/видео.html
I watched the video and still don't understand what your getting at as I had 30 some volts and you read 21, so this is a 10 volt difference which is likely simply the difference in the capacitor...
Okay flat earther, you proved no evidence. Only can guess and say your meter is probably around 10Mohms, but the way you're measuring, you're using your multimeter as the load. If you add more to your load, using LowZ or even a resistor in parallel with your meter. Your voltage will drop. The impedance of a human body is between 100k (best case) to 500-Ohms (worst case). You wouldn't feel anything using THIS single load on the surge protector. They way you would feel if you add more (capacitance) to it. Run the experiment! See the numbers for yourself.
@@RyanJardina rest assured the world is round (I have already traveled around it once this year) and I also believe we landed on the moon too (however I have not been there, but know there is a well positioned laser reflector. However still don't what your getting you 21 volts and I like 32 volts whats the point?
Something really shocking is how BAD your plugs and sockets are ! Sorry i'm a bit off topic but... electricity safety all start with an outlet and a plug. Every video on the topic originated from US, or AU ... look at your plug shape and pins ! I'm an european, and here we use the standard Schuko plug and socket. Schuko socket is recessed so pins are unexposed, and pins are half-way coated... whereas AU and US plug are flat-socked exposed pins plugs ! Easy to spot : When you plug in and out your device, it lit up BEFORE the socket gets flush ; pins are exposed ! Seriously this electricity standard is NOT good. Even if i move to US one day i would never equipped my home with such a socket. Be careful !
Yes a true statement "your device, it lit up BEFORE the socket gets flush ; pins are exposed" as you will also notice I handled it in way to avoid touching those prongs as yes I like many other american have brushed those pins before and been shocked...
Not all your plugs are coated. That might be a safety thing your country is moving to. If you did move to the US, you would have no choice but to uses NEMA style plugs. When buying appliances and electronics in the US you are not given a choice of what type of plug to use.
When I moved from the UK to the US I was amazed by how bad the electrical system was here. The plugs and sockets were awful, pins on the plug can be bent by a minor knock (my 7 year old grand-daughter can bend them by hand) the sockets are equally garbage, but just to add insult to injury, the grid has been terrible also. I have lived here 18 years in Tennessee, Indiana & Florida and white & brownouts are very common, blackouts several a year (mostly for minuets, but sometimes days, worst being after hurricane Irma being almost 2 weeks) far too many power poles get taken out by car accidents. I have UPS's on all delicate electronics but my LED lights are still being destroyed by the terrible power.
I have never heard the term 'whiteout' before, but I can tell you that it depends on where you live as far as the quality of power. If you live in a congested large city, then brown outs are normal in the summer because of everyone trying to run air conditioners. The power is very stable here where I live. I have lived in the same house for 27 years, and the power has only gone out maybe 8 times for any length of time. You also have to understand that more precautions have to be taken with 240 volts than the 120 volts here. The national electrical code is always changing here as well. GFI's make things a lot safer. Our grid is due and overhaul. That is no doubt
Whiteout = Power spike, noticed by lights quickly brightening, I don't notice it anymore as I have changed out to LED but I am quite sure it has caused a number of the LED's to burn out. It's a term I learned 30+ years ago I don't think anyone uses it anymore. Since moving here I have lived mostly just outside a city but the 2 cities I did live in (Nashville & Indianapolis) were terrible. Now don't get me wrong I am comparing it to living in London which I never experienced any power outage of more than a few mins ever (that was scheduled as they were swapping over power line) and very few brownout (I probably get more brownouts here in a year that I ever saw in London in 30 years maybe that just a bad memory but I don't believe so
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Thanks SO much for making this video, and to everyone who commented! This is exactly what happened, without a doubt. When I lived at home we had my small workshop fitted with tonnes of power plugs for this reason, but having to constantly make up for terribly planned rentals and insufficient mains outlets caused me to start doing dodgy practices. I definitely paid the price and am thankful it was something like this. I'll be creating an update and will link back to this excellent explanation.
No worries Angus and glad it was something so simple! As we would have hated to see you with a Joel Telling hair-do! :-)
GREAT video on this, thank you!
Yea Joel good to hear from you and many thanks!
Astonishing informative. Floating ground is in reality an open ground.
The part about the neutral INSIDE THE PRINTER being connected to the printer
frame. unbelievable, who knew. thank you.
Your welcome :-)
This guy has experience, Angus (and I) just gained some!
Thank you.
Your very welcome :-)
The primary reason people break off the ground in the USA is they live or work in an old building that only has 2 pin outlets. There is no ground wire in the outlet box. Replacing the 2 pin with a modern 3 pin outlet just makes things worse. Yes you can now plug in 3 pin plugs directly but you give the impression to people its a grounded outlet which is a code violation. Someone dies from this you are libel. If the house burns down the insurance company doesn't have to pay. Why? Because you caused a no code situation with your DIY. The point of this discussion is safety and not getting shocked. NEC has an approved way to deal with old two pin outlets. You can use a GFCI ruclips.net/video/16KObgI44UE/видео.html. You still don't have a grounded outlet but the GFCI is a super fast circuit breaker specifically designed to protect people from getting shocked. If you live in the US, you already use GFCI protection anywhere there may be water (Bathroom, Kitchen, Garage, outdoor outlets).
Been learning about floating neutral thanks to the generator world and for me it's preferred since i have installed an inlet box to back feed my main panel. Seeing as the panel has a neutral bond this is preferred since you can only have 1 neutral bond in the whole system.
I did however make a bonded neutral plug to use in one of my 120V sockets when using the generator as a stand alone unit when im using it for powering plugged in tools/devices for the reasons you showed in the video.
If you are in the UK with a standard plug socket, it physically won't let you put a plug in unless ground goes in first.
Correct (I spend a bit of time in London every year :-)
Dosent matter when half the plugs has a plastic tap, as ground pin ;)
Great video. I think you did an excellent job of showing what can go wrong. I grew up in a very old house that only had two wire receptacles and I remember my dad using one of those cheaters. As a kid, I had no idea of the danger but I remember being forbidden to touch it - not because it was unsafe but because they were hard to find and my dad was afraid I'd lose it.
I agree with your warnings about using cheap extension cords. They often start out poor quality and get worse as they age.
Went I researched this piece, I was surprised by the number of people who die every year from the "cheaters"...
Great explanation. I hope people take note for their own safety. The main take-away is, if you mess with the Ground, the Live will bite you in the ass.
Love this! if you mess with the Ground, the Live will bite you in the ass.
Nice explanation, and thanks for the credit! Some notes about power strips: The cheap ones have springy metal strips that connect all of the outlets in parallel. If you constantly plug and unplug stuff, you can dislodge the ground strip or it can loose its springiness, and you can loose the ground connection and never know it. For shop or lab use, it's better to use one with individual sockets rather than metal strips. Tripp Lite makes suitable ones that have been used in industry and electronics labs for many years.
I have seen so many over the years go poof it isn't funny as yes there are high quality ones out there (and I have and use some) and I list this in the description sections of this and prior e-mail. Also again thanks on the impedance, that was it and I was a bit surprised!
Yup. The Tripp Lites you link to are the ones I recommend, too. It's always confusing when the measuring instruments you use affect the thing you're measuring, but it does happen from time to time.
I had just built what they called "spider boxes" which are outlets mounted in a metal box. They are ganged and a GFI can be installed with them. Does that make any sense to circumvent the power strip issue?
A spider box is generally used as a temporary way to distribute power at a construction site or similar location, normally contains GFI or at least standard circuit breakers, and normally connects to a 220V source rather than a standard 110V receptacle. Overkill in my opinion for 3D printers. The main advantage over an inexpensive power strip would be that a spider box has separate receptacles rather than the aforementioned springy metal strips, but this is true of industrial-grade power strips like the ones Joe has linked to as well. A GFI is always a good idea, especially in a basement, garage, or shop that might have a damp or wet floor, but receptacles in these locations should already have GFI protection. Either way, you need to use a high-quality cord (preferably an "outdoor" type, sometimes marked SJOOW) and route it where it won't be stepped on or tripped over.
Got it. Thnx
Great information on the importance of the ground prong!
Bingo! :-)
very educative. Thank you regards
With BX cable and metal boxes those 2 prong adapters worked very well.
Guess I a little confused as BX cables are armoured cables and still require a ground?
Prior to Romex - The armor in the BX cable goes to ground; it goes to ground because it terminates in the metal fuse box (breaker box) which is then grounded sometimes to plumbing. Even the early romex was attached to the metal gang box.. so even there a 2 prong plug would be relatively safe.
My printers are plugged into a power strip, plugged into a power strip, plugged into a power strip, plugged into a UPS, plugged into an extension cord :) To be fair, the extension cord is a HUGE construction-grade cord (10AWG wires) with a built in ground fault indicator, the UPS has a ground fault indicator on it, and they're plugged into the only grounded outlet available in this 110+ year old building (grounding spike is right outside my window). It's not ideal, but sometimes you have to work with what you have.
You have just caused all of the blood to drain from my face... Well on the bright side you have a very big extension cord (i.e. 10AWG :-)
Does the frame have to be electrically connected to the power supply, or is it just the fact that the metal power supply sits in the metal frame? If you insulate your power supply from your printer, will that stop the frame from becoming 'live'? Can we add in a ground connection from the frame to the ground of the power supply - is that safe to do and worth doing? I have a metal frame P3Steel with a classic power supply. Want to make sure any trace of electricity in the frame is safely routed away.
Thanks
Steve
Depends on the printer like this JGAurora A4 it all one body so the mains can short to the body and technically the physical connection of the PS to the chassis "should" be enough. Whereas the CR-10 the PS and frame separated so the frame "should" be isolated. Technically the correct thing to do would be to add a separate earthen ground to the chassis to ensure protection...
You are correct it all should be Grounded and it appears not to be which is a Code violation
I just ordered a power strip to plug two printers in. I got a smoke detector kill switch i was going to plug in as well so it was going to go like this:
printer > power strip > kill switch remote > extension cord desk table plug (drill a hole in your desk so you have a table top outlet) > wall outlet.
all of which are grounded 3 prong. are you saying this would probably be a bad idea, and i should be going directly into the wall instead? This freaks me out and makes me not even want to touch the printers. Im down in my basement just in my socks and PJ's and dont want to get lit up by something.
Great explanation. Sadly too many people pull the ground pin out...
Thanks and your 100% right!
People pull the ground pin out because the old homes aren't grounded. I used to do that to all three-prong cords. Now I just buy the three prong outlets and pretend I have ground lol. yayyyy
Great video, 👍I learned a lot!
Lol i got used to getting slightly zapped from the printer exposed metal , i use a 3 prong plug and have a good ground not sure why it happens , same happens when i switch to off grid solar
Nice video! Simple and clear! Thank you.
Your welcome...
Good video. Be safe. Thanks !
Many thanks!
Thanks for this video.
Now, I really have a problem here. In the Netherlands it's pretty common with older houses that they only have a grounded outlet in the bathroom and the kitchen. Nowhere else in the house I hve a grounded outlet. Not to mention I have only 3 outlets per room, so the only way I can run 10+ printers here is by using these extension cords.
I never experienced a problem with that, but this could lead to a problem, I guess.
10 plus printers? Yes you have a problem waiting to happen. My suggestion would be to have electrician come and add a couple circuits and 10 is a lot of printers and if your bleeding them altogether there can be issues. As you have two issues if I am reading this correctly, current draw and grounding. To fix the first you need circuits and if pressed for two you could add a secondary chassis ground by installing a ground rod out side...
Thanks for your detailed answer. Going to contact an electrician this week.
I would be more concerned why the printer is leaking current to ground. The potential between neutral to ground should be zero.
Not sure I tracked this as you say talk about a leaking to ground and then say "he potential between neutral to ground should be zero"...
There should be no voltage between ground and neutral
@@stevehill1802 I honestly don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. He rants about how power strips make everything "electrically common", but its no different to the wiring in your walls, except for maybe additional breakers and mice. He doesn't talk about his isolation transformer built into the strip (which probably removes the ground without the adapter), and as you say, and potential between ground and neutral means something is really wrong.
great video, a lot of machines are a bit 'floaty'! especially the cheap k40 lasers
Thanks and since the cathode is connected directly to the chasis very much so! This was one of my most popular video in the eBay K40 Laser play list...
Thanks for this but if I have purchased a Chinese power supply that has no earth connection, does this mean I should throw it away? I thought you were supposed to just wire the earth from the power cord to the power supply case? Is that safe? Got me worried now, any advice greatly appreciated! Thanks
I assume your in the US? The third prong is (or should be) an earthen ground as Neutral which is the return for the "load" is sometimes referred to as the "electrical" ground. So if your PS has Load, Neutral and Ground and all three connections are properly wired you should be good. However if you doubts or question, contact a local electrician...
The neutral to the ground connection inside the printer? That y capacitor seems
to be the culprit. Who knew, who would of known.
Observation: My 1970 model pop up toaster has FLOATING GROUND. No safety
ground, no third plug connection. Designed this way on purpose? No safety
ground because of OPEN heating element?
We need an explanation why that y connection is in the printer!!
Wonderful video. Thank you.
Thanks for the kind comments and yes to the Y-Cap :-)
All your high voltage wiring terminals should be insulated .I noticed that none of them are and these can easily come off and also pose a risk to anyone working on it ,qualified or not.
Thanks for commenting! Actually they are with a clear plastic, I talk about this a bit more in the prior video ruclips.net/video/fSNMQxkpf18/видео.html :-)
The main point is that unless you are trained you should not be messing with mains voltages. However if you had a hot lead come off and touch the case it would trip the breaker immediately.
Great video! You consistently have the most informative videos on 3D printing. A thought: for printers like the CR-10 that have a separate control box (but use these same power supplies), would a replacement control box made of plastic be safer? If so, would the interior still need to be lined with conductive material (for instance, copper tape) and connected to ground in case of a loose live wire, or would it be better not to line it at all? Sorry if these are stupid question, EE (especially AC circuits) was never my strong suit.
Thanks for commenting! With a proper ground it is safe and this is the key message as many people either discount the ground or worse forget about all together.
I remember seeing those three prong to two prong adapters as a kid years ago, I never knew they could be dangerous. I think I understand a bit, but my question is, what else can be dangerous if plugged into a power strip if the ground in the strip is faulty? I'm guessing everything? Because computers, Playstation, Xbox, and other popular items all have power supplies like the 3D printer right? Last question, if you know the ground on a power strip is good, is it still safe to use the strip with a 3D printer, or should it just be avoided?
So anything with three prongs that plugs into the power strip is at risk as there are a couple things at work, (1) each additional connection [plug to socket connection] means (a) higher resistance and (b) the potential for a lost ground. Then there is (2) the quality of the strip or extension cord as many of the cheap unit some form of mystery metal and this mean higher resistance and resistance means heat and we all know what happens with heat. Now is all of his stuff evil? No, if used properly they can be safe as let's talk about usage for a second. Power strips and extension cords were meant for temporary application not permanent, in this they aren't meant to run a device long term. For example you use an extension cord for circle saw, your saw isn't a constant draw. Now someone is going to read this and just all over me and say "but a 3D printer doesn't draw as much power as say a table saw". Correct, BUT most power tool these days are double insulated and the potential of lost ground having an effect is low, second, the additional sockets on a power are for convenience and not continued use. As this is my biggest concern and where Angus ran into an issue as he plunged multiple printers into one strip for long term use. Local electrical code specifies circuit loading for a home circuit and a power stip or worse yet strips throw a major monkey wrench into this mix. Whew, so in short if you buy a quality power strip and use it for what it was in intended then your good. However if you simply plug a bunch of printers into, it well your mileage might vary. Hope this helped...
Whow, that power strip is weird (or at least, totally different from what i've seen in the Netherlands).
Some differences i notice:
1. The power plugs are made in such a way that you cannot reverse them. You do have AC out of the wall over there, right?
2. What's a transformator socket?
3. An on/off switch as a reset switch? Overload protection?
Also wondering, the thing seems to have a proper, thick insulation, but even so you don't recommend them for devices like 3D printers, which would draw about 400W max i'd guess? When similarly insulated extension cords over here don't even get warm with a 1000w connected? Is that due to the 220v over here?
Plugs in the US are polarised for Load and Neutral which is a bit different then Europe (as I spend a lot of time there and even over saw the building of a Datacenter just outside of AMS). The transformer socket just as more room for a wall wart :-) In this case its just an on/off switch but they think it sounds fancy to say reset. Thickness can be deceiving, the quality of metal in the wires and connector is poor and leads to higher resistances and oxidation (i.e. poor connection lead to heat). Then open it up and it goes down hill then we start taking about quality...
That power strip does have a electronic overload in the power switch that’s why it has the reset on the power button.
Luckily we have very good ground connections in the EU. It's almost impossible for the ground to fail. Even if the cord is pulled out, first disconnects live, second disconnects neutral, and lastly disconnects ground. I'm glad I plugged my printer into a grounded socket, around here depending on how old the house is, there might not even be a ground in any socket, *except the kitchen, toilets and washroom.* Those are always mandatory in every house.
Thanks for commenting as I do a lot of electrical work in the EU (Netherlands, Germany and UK) have seen as many ground failure there as the US and that is the point. Its easy for a ground system failure so it should always be approached with care. Also in the US a proper plug, the Hot & Neutral are polarized and the ground tip longer so that it engages first and disengages last.
I don't know much about that, but in Spain I experienced cables being installed in the wrong order. Also outlets without ground.
You said that this is not a safe way to test for this issue. What would be a safe way to test that the device (such as the 3d printer) is appropriately grounded?
Thanks for commenting! For clarity I am saying not to do what I am "doing" as what I am is demonstrating the leakage of the Cy capacitor from neutral to ground. The biggest thing as I point out in the video is you want to test to ensure your ground is working and effective and to do this you would need an outlet tester like you see in the video (here is a link: amzn.to/2FB6rn9 ). If you wanted to take this a step further, while unplugged take a multimeter and touch it to bare portion of the metal case of your printer and the ground pin of the power cord with your meter in continuity mode (or ohms) and you should see a connection or really low ohm reading and your good. Hope this helps!
Is it just a camera artefact, or does your power strip look a little yellowed by the indicator LED, between the switch and first outlet? That's also a fire hazard, it suggests the MOV inside is nearing the end of its life, drawing constant current, and heating, possibly leading to it catching fire. Yet another reason to use these type only for light intermittent duty.
You are 100% correct my friend! No artifacts and the reason I chose that one too so good eye!
What about surge protector? Is it the same as extension cord?
Yes, as your adding and "plug" and length of wire can do two things, (1) cause a break in the ground as happened to Angus over at Makers Muse, (2) compromise your ground do to added resistance of both the wire and extra connection.
I live in Egypt, we have plugs with 2 not 3.
How do I connect things that have plugs with 3?
I do use a converter from 3 to 2, but you said it is not good.
Also plugs with 2, do they have ground?
I would check the country electrical codes for earth grounding and install a ground rod and wiring inline with them as local / regional codes will typically define length and placement of the rod as well strapping...
I have had this problem with my computer so I pluged a groud wire to the central heating plumbing (copper).The best way is to wire it to a copper rod in a ground hole outside the house with charcoal.
bombero34fr I do not know how to do this. Who can I ask here about this? The electricity company?
You may find how to do it on internet! Try something like "hearh grounding" !
Christiane Louca , look at "ground" on wikipédia !
For this demo you removed the ground wire from the chaise terminal to earth ground rod?
I removed the third pin from the plug (i.e. the ground), now in this is where ends up is outside to a ground rod but this is not a separate chassis ground...
That's a yes on Terry's question?
What if the room doesn't have ground (old building)?
If you can't achieve a ground, I would not use it in that room as these are Class I appliances which means if the main shorts to the metal case, the breaker or fuse will not trip as there is no ground path and therefore you (or your family) will become the ground path. Would suggest consulting with a local electrician to review your options to correct...
DIY3DTECH.com True, but I guess that will be true for any desktop computers as well?
In our apartment, we now have ground in every room, but this is a storage room in the basement where there’s an outlet.
There more so even would check with a professional as the likelihood of creating a ground there is VERY high...
DIY3DTECH.com Exactly. Will do some measurements before I use it.
To be fair though, ground is typically only on bathrooms and kitchens in addition to rooms fully underground on all houses here before 2000 or so. Now all new installations have ground, same with special appliances that MUST have ground.
But it’s not allowed to have both grounded and not in the same room (so you can touch both).
Nice video mate, and a really good explanation :)
Ever opened up a power strip to see how they work? pretty scary stuff!
Umm, if you do open one up chuck it out straight away.
Oh Yes! I 've have taken a lot of negative comments over my position power strips and especially "cheap ones" however yes have taken them apart and seen many "flash" in a huge of smoke. I am in the IT/Data Center business and these things are major banned! What folks also miss in in the cheap one they use "cheap metal" oxidizes easy and builds resistance and of course resistance build heat and the rest in the smoke!
While you were unplugging stuff, I also noticed how you can pull the plug out "halfway" and expose the pins... That seems to be a terrible idea, especially with children?!
Are you talking about inside?
DIY3DTECH.com No, the actual plug and socket. The socket is flat, and the pins are exposed all the way. That you pull it out slightly, and the pins are exposed - kids could get their fingers behind and touch it.
Shouldn't all metal enclosures be earth grounded ?
And if the "ground" is not broken (as in the example) the metal enclosure is [earth grounded] via the screws of the power supply....
I mean regarding angus' printers, obviously there is no explicit grounding point, or it is screwed into powder coat perhaps ?
He broke the ground using extension cords and power strips...
ohhhhh I somehow missed that, I even watched both videos, must have been distracted, DOH
:-)
It's not just "in the olden days" -- you're always supposed to screw in the ground tab into the outlet. -- If you leave it unscrewed, you're doing it wrong.
LOL! My hope is today it is unneeded as we to use these at Grandparents home like 30 years or so ago and this one pretty old and if dig deep enough I sure I have bakelite version :-)
Ha ha, that little green wire to screw to the face plate would only work if the metal box was in fact grounded? thank you
@@tedlahm5740 Yes it only works on a outlet that has a grounded box. Regarding older two pin outlets with no ground: If the outlet is inside a metal box with metal conduit to the panel then you have a ground source for the screw. If your house has plastic or older dark bakalite boxes they are not a ground source. If you do have metal boxes and there is no metal conduit running back to the panel ,you have no ground source either. So using the adapter screw to face plate may not give you a ground source.
How does this effect countries with no ground? eg Japan
John Croucher you would need a ground installed for the receptacle you intend on using your printer. Japan solved the issue with most of their appliances being double insulated instead of grounded. The US was the same way before the 1970’s.
Here is a good link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appliance_classes as these are Class I devices and as dsnsdn points out yes an external grounding rod would be the solution...
Hey Joe, thanks again for the vid. FYI Angus actually tweeted out a link to this video. Cheers, JAYTEE
Oh look, there he is in the comments :)
Ah very cool! Thanks for sharing!
A ground fault breaker preferably in the breaker box but a remote one is better than nothing is the real answer!
I've had issues them in the past as the leakage alone would trip it...
I was pondering that as you demonstrated, where I live RCD is standard in homes (30mA trigger), meaning that that much leakage from the unit would be a PITA... any tricks to get around it? Can the circuit in the unit handle switching the Y-Cap to an X-cap mode?
The leakage current from the Y capacitors is far too small to trip an RCD even if multiple power supplies are connected to the RCD-protected circuit.
Feel free to disagree, but I don't think of a floating ground as the same as an open ground. This video uses the terms interchangeably. Example of a floating ground is a generator like a popular Honda. If you use it for power, and attach a surge protector like one found on RV's, the surge protector will shut off the power to the RV because it doesn't see a ground. There's nothing wrong with the generator. The solution is to create a "Bonded Neutral" plug, which is nothing more than a Edison Plug with a short jumper from G to N. Remember, at your home, the ground and neutral are bonded in the breaker panel! All this plug does is recreate that with a generator.
I agree about power strips. I found one with Hot and Neutral reversed! How could that happen? The outlet was fine! The power strip had "surge protector" built in and I surmise that somehow caused it. TOSS!
I am not sure there is anything to "disagree about" as when you look up "floating ground" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_ground) you find: Most electrical circuits have a ground which is electrically connected to the Earth, hence the name "ground". The ground is said to be floating when this connection . Technically ground always exists, its a matter of impedance to reach...
1:35 4:21 My bessed ears dude. You blew me across the room.
Glad it helped (I hope thats what you mean)....
a "safe" example is if you take a Google Audio dongle (microusb) powered and power it from most portable speaker usb power outputs ... result just awful noise :-( floating earth
Thanks for sharing as this is a good example!
if you check out some of the older EEVBlog RUclips channel teardowns of chinese Soldering irons (and more expensive stuff) it's a bit shocking 1. how often the earth connection to the external cable is non existent or loose/poorly connected 2. transformer isolation is so poor its ridiculous ... likewise if you check out the BigClive RUclips channel his teardowns of cheap chinese devices are eyepopping (he coined the phrase "deathdaptor" for the country plug adaptor shipped with many chinese products) .. if you check out BigClive's RUclips channel check out the Killer USB charging camping lanterns - KAPOW!
Ideley it should be rare for a elatronick to have to use ground
Earthen ground is a "safety", failure to one have means you could end up dead and yes I know people that are dead because of a lack of ground...
DOUBT IT but, link into, DuPont Teflon Non-Stick Dry-Film Lubricant Squeeze Bottle< as a bed adhesive
great for your Z -Axis
Damn near all dc to ac inverters come with this floating ground! How to ground an inverter that is the question.
I believe the intent of the inverter is that are used with double insulated device as this would be an issue
So this guy is here talking about electrical safety and yet he is wearing jewelry (wedding ring) while working on energized circuits, Any real electronic tech knows better than this, never wear conductive jewelry especially rings while working on energized circuits
You should really have measured from case ground to actual ground (as Angus does in his video) rather than from neutral to ground. I know that practically it's the same but you want to replicate the conditions.
Thanks for commenting! As you point out its "practically it's the same" so the idea was to show the bleed as the source of "shock" because at the time there was big hoopla that these were "unsafe" and really was a comparison as too this came out in response to Angus's initial video of where he was "shocked". I know he later did a similar video after mine...
You should rerun your meter test with a low Z mode. Your results probably be drastically different, and a bit more honest.
Why? This is a textbook example of what you would expect for a "Y" capacitor and even proven in real life my Angus at Makers Muse which is what inspired this video...
Ground is very important. I don't have the same setup as you. But made a small video explaining my thoughts. This is why you should use a low impedance voltage test vs a normal voltage check. ruclips.net/video/MCae-I1nL90/видео.html
I watched the video and still don't understand what your getting at as I had 30 some volts and you read 21, so this is a 10 volt difference which is likely simply the difference in the capacitor...
Okay flat earther, you proved no evidence. Only can guess and say your meter is probably around 10Mohms, but the way you're measuring, you're using your multimeter as the load. If you add more to your load, using LowZ or even a resistor in parallel with your meter. Your voltage will drop. The impedance of a human body is between 100k (best case) to 500-Ohms (worst case). You wouldn't feel anything using THIS single load on the surge protector. They way you would feel if you add more (capacitance) to it. Run the experiment! See the numbers for yourself.
@@RyanJardina rest assured the world is round (I have already traveled around it once this year) and I also believe we landed on the moon too (however I have not been there, but know there is a well positioned laser reflector. However still don't what your getting you 21 volts and I like 32 volts whats the point?
Something really shocking is how BAD your plugs and sockets are ! Sorry i'm a bit off topic but... electricity safety all start with an outlet and a plug.
Every video on the topic originated from US, or AU ... look at your plug shape and pins !
I'm an european, and here we use the standard Schuko plug and socket. Schuko socket is recessed so pins are unexposed, and pins are half-way coated... whereas AU and US plug are flat-socked exposed pins plugs !
Easy to spot : When you plug in and out your device, it lit up BEFORE the socket gets flush ; pins are exposed !
Seriously this electricity standard is NOT good. Even if i move to US one day i would never equipped my home with such a socket.
Be careful !
Yes a true statement "your device, it lit up BEFORE the socket gets flush ; pins are exposed" as you will also notice I handled it in way to avoid touching those prongs as yes I like many other american have brushed those pins before and been shocked...
Not all your plugs are coated. That might be a safety thing your country is moving to. If you did move to the US, you would have no choice but to uses NEMA style plugs. When buying appliances and electronics in the US you are not given a choice of what type of plug to use.
When I moved from the UK to the US I was amazed by how bad the electrical system was here. The plugs and sockets were awful, pins on the plug can be bent by a minor knock (my 7 year old grand-daughter can bend them by hand) the sockets are equally garbage, but just to add insult to injury, the grid has been terrible also. I have lived here 18 years in Tennessee, Indiana & Florida and white & brownouts are very common, blackouts several a year (mostly for minuets, but sometimes days, worst being after hurricane Irma being almost 2 weeks) far too many power poles get taken out by car accidents. I have UPS's on all delicate electronics but my LED lights are still being destroyed by the terrible power.
I have never heard the term 'whiteout' before, but I can tell you that it depends on where you live as far as the quality of power. If you live in a congested large city, then brown outs are normal in the summer because of everyone trying to run air conditioners. The power is very stable here where I live. I have lived in the same house for 27 years, and the power has only gone out maybe 8 times for any length of time. You also have to understand that more precautions have to be taken with 240 volts than the 120 volts here. The national electrical code is always changing here as well. GFI's make things a lot safer. Our grid is due and overhaul. That is no doubt
Whiteout = Power spike, noticed by lights quickly brightening, I don't notice it anymore as I have changed out to LED but I am quite sure it has caused a number of the LED's to burn out. It's a term I learned 30+ years ago I don't think anyone uses it anymore.
Since moving here I have lived mostly just outside a city but the 2 cities I did live in (Nashville & Indianapolis) were terrible. Now don't get me wrong I am comparing it to living in London which I never experienced any power outage of more than a few mins ever (that was scheduled as they were swapping over power line) and very few brownout (I probably get more brownouts here in a year that I ever saw in London in 30 years maybe that just a bad memory but I don't believe so