Leica is Cheap || Opinion
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
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This video is a good illustration of Acquisition Cost vs. Total Cost of Ownership. Even when buying a car, people should consider Total Cost of Ownership as part of the equation.
I use to think that they are expensive. Which still is. A lot of people wouldn’t justify buying a camera that takes film and costs as much as a mirrorless camera. However, people will upgrade or add a new digital body into their bag every two or three years. If people can do that or justify that purchase, they too can buy a Leica.
People make money with those cameras..
"They talk about the camera instead of their pictures"....yes, sad but true Nico. This is such a great channel and I hope you are proud of the videos you give us. I for one love seeing a notification pop up on my screen.....
Buying a camera simply for the investment doesn't really seem like a good reason for the casual market to start picking up Leicas. People will value the camera over the pictures they're taking. I think they're well built cameras like there's no arguing that but I feel alternatives like Canon rangefinders are equally as good and are at a more reasonable price.
Strong title. I clicked.
My black M4 came to me used in '72 for about $400. With the 50 f/2 Summicron included. CLA'd with some new cover material about four years ago after some years of non-use, it remains a supreme pleasure to use. It's a lovely tank to drive.
They hold their value because they're excellent, need minimal maintenance and you can just keep using them. Same for that Bolex on the right, despite the ridicolous prices of 16mm film and processing they still command a higher price than you'd expect on the used market.
What about Hasselblads?
Got a 503cw. Not so fond of 120. Sell now? Or prices might go up? (If film prices go up- does it mean camera prices go up or down?)
I bought my M2 at the beginning of 2021 (my first rangefinder) and absolutely love it. I use it every week and very much enjoy the experience of taking / making photos with it.
They are cheap if you have the cash sitting in a bank account. So my M6 out performs the same amount of money in a savings account (plus I get to use it). It would NOT be cheap if I borrowed that money! It would be NOT be cheap if I didn't have it insured and I dropped it. There are caveats. It would not be worth while if I didn't love using it.
In my opinion I reckon digital Leica 240 or 246 will depreciate now. So it isn't a golden rule. I would not buy a knackered M240 or M246 and expect it to go up in value - maybe but it is much more of a risk.
Unfortunately having a lovely Leica to use each day doesn't stop me buying other cameras. If it did it would be worth double the money!
Do you have special insurance on your Leica, or is it covered by your home insurance?
Thank you in advance!
@@chilecayenne just about covered by home insurance but if the prices go up much more it won't be. I'd rather they went done. (I bought a 1956 Zorki-S for £30 recently and that is nearly as much fun to shoot - obviously no replacement - nobody needs a Leica to have fun and the Zorki doesn't need insurance or worrying about).
I bought and sold an M6, an M3, a Minolta CL, and a Canon P. Ultimately I stayed with the Konica IIIA that I bought before all the rest, because nothing else I've used beat the rangefinder on the IIIA. Sure, interchangeable lenses are nice, but I use other cameras for that.
Anyway, I totally agree on the money aspect. I've made quite a bit of profit on MF systems as well owning then selling. For 2022 though I'm taking a break. I have over 20 cameras headed for sale. I think the prices have peaked for now. With the film prices rising and overall inflation going nuts, I think the younger shooters driving the camera market are going to slow down.
Hello, I would like to buy an M2, but have noticed that many have a slight golden separation in the viewfinder. Does it matter if I buy an M2 with separation (golden sheen around the frame)? Do I have to assume that the viewfinder will go black in a few months / years or can I buy one with a clear conscience?
I saved up a really long time for a Leica M3 and wound up getting a beautiful M3 that was custom painted by Shueido Cameras. However, while I shot with it a lot for the first few months of ownership I came to realize I was making better photos with my other cameras and my M3 very quickly became a 'shelf queen'. I wound up selling my Leica M3 at a slight loss to a gallery in South Korea just a few months ago. It's now on display there and I think it's better this way, now it can be appreciated by people visiting the gallery as apposed to wasting away on my shelf.
Buying an investment camera will put you off shooting it. I get the asset value side of things, but if you do this - think of it like stock, don't fool yourself into thinking that you'll actually use it as much as you want to (from experience)... The exception is if the cost of one is small relative to your income - then do what you want bud.
For a casual film photographer, just get something good enough that you like the image quality/functionality, but cheap enough you can go into a crowd or on a motorbike and have it out without fear (or rather, too much fear).
Love these videos.
This is often the case with a lot of mechanical film cameras these days. Hasselblads, Mamiya RB's, and some of the mechanical Nikons (FM series mainly). With a camera that is just dead reliable, they are quite likely to keep working for as long as you own them, and now that film is making a small comeback you can often sell them for about what you paid at the very least.
120% by you. I bought a M6 and i love the kamera so much.
2000+ isnt cheap in any ways but if you're into analog photography or just have the money laying around. Get one, you dont lose money. I'm pretty sure.
Dont drop it but if you money catches fire its also gone xD
We all appreciate your channel. Thanks for all of your hard work and research. It's easy for us to take for granted this info like we are just entitled to have it. 35mm is kinda a toy sized format but I will keep those opinions to myself. Happy New Years!!!!!
Oh, I had to watch the video because Leicas are many great things but cheap isn't the first thing that comes to mind. I totally agree with your premise, demand is always high, just like for Hasselblads. Year after year, the prices keep going up on film gear and the best quality is highly sought after. That said, there are a variety of film rangefinders of fine quality for a fraction of the price of a Leica. My experience is that those cameras pretty much hold their own in pricing over time, they don't decrease but they really don't increase either. The Canon rangefinders mostly come to mind. I'd be interested in hearing what others think of them. I believe they all use the Leica thread mount. And then there are the Cannonets that have a fixed lens. (The poor man's or woman's Leica).
Your logic holds only IF one plans to sell a camera after using it for a short time, as professionals might do. I buy things to keep until they are no longer cost effective to repair. Right now, the Nikon FM3A is by far the SLR camera which has been holding its value since its introduction, and is less expensive than all but the oldest of Leicas, and the lenses are much more affordable. Don't get me wrong, I have a Voigtlander rangefinder with Leica-compatible lenses, so I'm not an SLR fanboy. But the cost to begin acquiring a Leica kit is prohibitive to most of us. Oh, and my Voigtlander rangefinder is now *selling* on the used market for twice what I paid for mine new. My conclusion is that different circumstances justify different ways of analyzing the economics of our tools.
Amazing how Hasselblad 500s used to out price Leica M2-6s. Now the M6 is $2700-4500USD! Was able to trade my M6 toward a Black Paint MP. That M6 turned out to be a good investment and flip. My XPAN is seeing even more incredible leaps in value. Cheers!
Totally agree, they are a true workhorse that will last for years. The same can be said for V series Hasselblads. I bought a new 501cm in the late 1990s and it still serves me just as well today, has never let me down and is worth more now than I paid for it.
I’m always amused to hear the same people who pay ungodly sums for poorly engineered plastic point and shoot cameras complain that Leica’s are overpriced.
I have been thinking of getting a M5 (you may hate me 😜 ). They are reasonable priced but it seems no one wants or can service them.
You have answer on your doubts in your second sentence.
Btw, BMW M5 use to much fuel...
@@danijel3227 but I might be overlooking some repair services. Or that long time it was not interesting to repair them because they were too cheap. I have no idea why no-one repairs them
Ive essentially counted myself out on Leicas, simply because of cost/affordability currently for myself. Obviously owning one would give great pleasure and results to whomever owns set camera. I thinks its important for people to know that the values of these will become increasingly more expensive as years go on. I think its a weak argument to point out their “obsolescence”. This will on increase their value to the fact of supply and demand. Low supply, demand will always be high. A good gage for the demand was the recent Leica auction in Austria a month ago. An MP sold for 1,000,000€! Market fluctuations are a given, but over time baselines are established. Leicas are not going anywhere, there here to stay for the average man/enthusiast/upper middle class person. Prices will become obscene.
Great video and thoughts on value retention
Bought a new MP and some years later resold it for 20% higher price.
The Leica film cameras a definitely good purchases as film experiences a revival.
I don't own a Leica, but some day I probably will. Whenever I meet loving (film) Leica owners, I can always say that pretty much any film Leica will hold its value or even appreciate in value. There are not many consumable things you can say that about. Also, some Leica's are functioning well though being 60-70-90 years old. That in itself is amazing. Nico, I'm looking forward to the Leica comparison videos, that should be fun and interesting. Cheers!
I've bought many 35mm cameras over the years, also a Leica. I am selling them all off, because I don't use 35mm film anymore but medium format and larger. I haven't sold any of those cameras with a loss so far.
Leica if you, for once in your life, want the best of something.
Great content ! I agree that they are a sort of investment. They hold their good value 👍
This is huge in understanding gear acquisition decisions. The actual cost of something is its purchase price minus its resale price; the rate of depreciation on a piece of gear is a huge thing to consider. Buying used gear in good condition is one of the better ways to avoid taking a bit hit on depreciation. I own and use a Leica M3, and it is by far my favorite camera of all time.
Yeah, maybe Nico. But gentrification will now be the name of the game for film photography. Leica or not...
Same thing is going on with Mamiya 7 bodies at the moment. They go high up in price I think.
I have a 246 and love it!...but talking about making money,....5 years ago, I bought a Hasselblad xpan mk2 mint,.. for 2500.and just sold it for 6500!
I'm using my M6 for five years and could easily sell it for double now - so I also always tell my friends that a Leica is actually a really great investment which brings me also a lot of joy to use every day. But the thing is I never gonna sell my Leica.
As much as Leica film cameras retained well their value as Nico describes it, one would be well advised not to describe this as an investment unless it helps generating cash flow.
@@toulcaz31 yeah sorry, I was also to business school - then it‘s my best performing asset
If you buy a mechanical leica you have a camera for life. How many mechanical leicas end up in the garbage?.. Answer.. None!
Brave Nicos :-)
I would say Leica M cameras are really expensive, because the image quality (resolution, grain, tonality) of 35mm film is not that great. The quality of my Fuji GW690 III 6x9 pictures is significantly better than that of any Leica M and the camera is half the price. I used to own a Leica M6 TTL with 5-6 lenses (including a Noctilux) and sold it all because I didn't like the image quality of 35mm film. So I know what I'm talking about.
Your Fuji GW690 III(old electronic device-not repairable) is overpriced because for that money i can buy new Nikon Z7II with(resolution, grain, tonality) quality absolutely incomparable with your Epson scanned 6x9 negatives.
That are ALL WRONG reasons, and with that all your reasons against 35 mm Leica are WRONG also.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Hamburg. :-)
@@danijel3227 The fuji is fully mechanical 😏😅
It is.
I have a M2 and M6. Usualy like more use the M2 than M6. Is a different feeling. Metal feeling :)
I got pretty lucky a snatched a minty M3 off ebay for just a little over 600 a few years ago. The same camera today would easily go for 800-900 range. By your logic really if you're going for the real classic like M3 and M6 you're practically paid to used the camera if you do sell it at the end.
I bought my M6 around 2007 for $1100. At the time, I felt that was expensive, and I guess it was for such an old camera, but it really wasn't any more than what many digital bodies at the time were going for, and now M6s are selling for around $3000... crazy. In 2018 I bought an M2 for $800 that was just ClA'd.. now even that old thing's probably worth double that. Gotta love it. (not that i'd sell either of them)
I Just bought a Minolta cle cause i can't afford a Leica M7, however i am very Happy. The Big Problem with the cle ist that it is Impossible to get Replacment parts for It, so maby the extra Cash vor the M7 would by well spend.
This time last year I traded a X-T2 with grip and lens for a M3 body that had recently gone for a CLA. Now, I got the Fuji at a insane deal the year before that but I was trying to sell it because I knew the price would drop. I made the trade because I knew that I could use the Leica for years and it would hold it's value. I don't think I will ever be letting go of the M3.
This is true for a Leica film camera, but not for digital camera.
Yeah, my bad. I always forget they also make that.
I'll probably wait for prices to go down again
un titular apropiado para ser 28 de diciembre...
I agree with what you say :) And they are simply just so lovely to handle and use, not comparable with any other camera brand out there in that regard in my opinion. I started with digital leica but when i got into film i traded my leica Q-P at the time for a black M4 with lenses, which on my part was maybe not the "smartest" deal when it comes to money. But for me the condition and also the possibility to get a hold of one with those lenses and just have a nice kit to start with and not having to lack anything for a while felt i was a fair deal. I ended up selling the M4 to add some lenses and a M240 down the line but now again have the plan to add maybe an M2 or an M3 instead of an M4 this time. I think the thought of either of these have stayed with me so long that i just have to own one at some point hehe. I do shoot with both Nikon and pentax as well and a favorite there is the FM3a and the Spotmatic SP which i also love shooting. Still, those Leica bodies are something special :) /Martin the Swede.
If you consider that they cost about what’s about 4-6K in todays money it’s not too much to ask. The problem is that no one is making digital rangefinders for normal people.
Well, I’d argue that Fuji does rangefinder digital, good price and good lenses, although aps-c sensors. Look into the pro-3 for one example.
@@chilecayenne I’ve had this argument before and it drives me nuts. Just because a camera has a look through viewfinder on the left side doesn’t make it a manually focusing rangefinder. With an actual rangefinder I’m completely in charge of all the imaging aspects. With a good camera like a Leica (not an M6) I’m solely responsible if the image gets screwed. That can not be said for any of the modern Fujis.
“it is an investment!” I keep telling my wife after buying another Leica…
I dont have one, and am not willing to spend on one. But I enjoy all of the other great film cameras I have.
Film Leicas hold value but as far as investment is considered, lenses can still be used on digital Lecias. Get an affordable M2 and invest in lenses
I get your point but I disagree with the title. Cheap is also a quality assessment for me and that is not the case with anything Leica to be cheap. Leicas are cheap to use and keep us not as grippy as a title though
I got my M2 for 300USD in 2016 and it came with a Voigtlander that I later sold for 250USD so my M2 only costed 50USD
I bought my M3 and a summicron 50mm in 2005 for 800€. I let check, clean and overhaul it for further 600€. It works still like a new one and still has a clean viewfinder. I could sell her for about 2000-3000€ today. But i will not do… ;)
While this is all true of Leicas it’s also true of film cameras in general. This is as true for the humble Pentax K1000 as it is for the Leica M6. Demand for film cameras is going up each year while the supply dwindles from cameras breaking and getting into more people’s hands. Add to that the simple reality of the cost of hobbies going up for no real reason during the pandemic and just about any film camera (save for those that rely heavily on electronics) is going to get you a return on your “investment.” If someone is on the fence about buying a Leica this is a good thing to keep in mind, but it isn’t a reason on its own to buy one and it doesn’t make them cheap.
You are wrong. Where are 300 USD Leica. Called as Barnacks. Better made for long run as M. But not snobby. Once M needs service and parts, it is way more than 300. Mine needed it once after intensive use. And needs more than 300 in parts and service still. After real use, not investment.
I enjoyed your video a lot an I am saving money for an M3 or M6 :)
A proud user and owner of a zenit 122 for years watching a leica video. How funny is that?
"Cheap," unless you break it, or it gets stolen, or you want to put a new battery into one.
I fully understand that „investment thinking“ - but I don‘t like it. People who want to use the cameras end up with different ones, as the good ones lie in a safe due to „low interest rates“ 🤮
So a Picasso is really cheap because I can buy one for $10 million, look at it for a few years and sell it for more… Wow, I’m not sure that I can get on board with that logic.
Life hack if you travel to Japan you can find nice Leicas for fair prices and tax free……..
sure the flight to Japan from Toronto Canada is only $5,140.00 Canadian, then I need to declare it on my return flight. So a $1,500.00 Leica from Japan, is not calculated at a flat rate for tax and duty, it's calculated at Canadian Blue Book Value. So now its another $1,300.00 to the Government, plus cost of the camera, and the cost of the flight. I'm sure there are people who would do that, I'm not one of them.
@@clarhettcoalfield3616 Wait do people really declare all the stuff they buy abroad? So long as you're not trying to smuggle an entire suitcase full of camera bodies and lenses the airport staff won't care at all. It's not like they keep a record of all the things in your luggage on the way out and check it when you get back lol
@@martinxu7252 If you live in Canada, Customs agents have red flagged a number of luxury items, including Leica cameras, and if you can't provide proof that you owned the very Leica they spot in your luggage or carry on with a receipt or other documentation, they can and have confiscated said cameras until you pay the tax and duty or provide the proper documentation to retrieve your Leica camera. A number of my past clients fell into that same predicament after coming back from Hong Kong, they then asked for a receipt from me after not being able to find the original receipt for servicing that I provided them, from many years ago. This situation often takes months to sort out. So yes a service receipt that shows the serial number of your Leica camera can provide you the documentation you need, to get your camera back. If you do purchase abroad and skate by customs without your camera being spotted or declared, count your blessings and buy a lottery ticket.
I got my M6 for $5 in a thrift store
If you’ve never used a Leica, then you’d never understand why the price is as it is. I like my Nikon FM2 but the smoothness and silence of a Leica are not easy to match. I know there’s a dichotomy of a being a geek versus being a user but always, always do your research. Don’t buy an M2 or M3 and expect using a 21mm lens to be the same experience as on a digital camera. For film cameras, there’s a vast selection available that can meet your expectations or needs. But I agree, Leica is cheap.
Bessas are just better cameras, leica is ergonomically bad. Its heavy & thick. Film loading is slow and cumbersome. And you can get your own back from bessas also. And Bessas also offer the wide angle model, something leica does not even offer. Its just way more modern design. I have the plastic fantastic first Bessa R, and i would choose that over leica any day. Its so much lighter.
This is a joke becouse if you use Leica a lot like i do sometimes you must give it to servise and it isnt cheep....... Leica is the mose overpriced camera in the world and offer nothing ..... Lens is different story.
Sadly making and basing an opinion on a purchase made more than 4 years ago is a bit out of tune with current market conditions, but this is also merely my opinion. Now, as far as cheap to operate or maintain a mechanical analogue film camera like the Leica you are holding in the video goes... here too, there is a fine line between fact and reality. Mostly because you are basing your personal opinion and observations on the Leica gear in your possession, and your ability as both a camera tech savvy individual, and seasoned photographer. But, to suggest to an individual who is interested in purchasing their first Leica, go out to purchase a Leica for $600 - $1,000.00 you are asking that person to purchase an item that isn't certified used by Leica, or any reputable camera shop like KEH. But, to trust individuals who are selling said cameras in what would be considered the grey (eBay, Craigslist) or even black market (privately, pawnshop, back of a truck) Is this possible yes, is it reliable, not so much. Given passed experiences shared by those on YT about this route, its filled with problematic and escalating expenses that get tacked onto that initial purchase, where it is often cheaper, to borrow your words, to purchase a certified used Leica from KEH or the like for $3,000 to $4,000 dollars. The one true fact to seriously consider is distinguishing between want and need, then this, the answer you give, when you are asked - Do you really want a Leica?
This M2 in the video was purchased 10 years ago. But I have bought one a month ago, still no regrets on the price.
Also I work at Camera Rescue and one can find working Leicas for 1000€ or so. Do they need a CLA every now and then? Yes, they all do. But if you want 100% peace of mind for sure its best to pick up one for 2000€ thats already been serviced. And make sure who is the one that did the service as many dont do the right job.
@@NicosPhotographyShow I don't doubt you, but me as a 35 year camera tech/repairman (now retired) I understand the value of a Leica, I appreciate the mechanics, what I didn't like when I was repairing cameras back in the day, was the attitude that most first time Leica buyers had, especially when they purchased an old 2nd, 3rd, or 4rth hand Leica that wasn't properly maintained or serviced, but when told it would cost - X amount of dollars to repair, they normally balk at the estimate, often accusing me of trying to take advantage of them just because they owned a Leica. After a while I just stopped repairing Leica's, and referred all Leica repairs to Leica Canada.
If you buy a camera on what you consider "black market" (here in Europe is that where you get weapons, drugs, under-aged hookers etc) you are still there yourself. Don't buy if you don't have a good feeling with the seller. Check the camera before you buy etc.
The Texas Leica (GW690) I own, was from a guy I know and recently serviced. My three Mamiya's are all from private sellers. Just keep a CLA I mind when negotiating about the price.
One thing to consider, and this is what I do, If I see a deal ebay or Craigslist, I always figure the cost of a CLA into the price. If I am buying from a private party, I will offer less and explain that the camera will most certainly need a CLA. I have bought from KEH also but in my heart, I am a bargain shopper. Pawnshops have never worked for me. They seem to be overpriced and sitting in the very dusty window for decades.
Clickbait
In a way it is.
Everything Is cheap accourding to this guy. Film..cameras and so on. Every opinion piece... "oh you think its expensive? No its cheap". Dude we are talking about obsolete technology here revived by enthusiasts… hipsters. Don’t kid yourself. Outside of this circle no one In the „right mind“ will spend any money on this. The more expensive everything gets (again) the less chance it has to continue existing.
Thanks for your input. So a Sony A7IV is cheaper because its not obsolete? And how much will that Sony be vs a Leica M2 in 10 years?
@@NicosPhotographyShow Sorry maybe I was a bit harsh in my response but to answer your question somewhat; Leica will be woth 0 if there are no people willing to pay the inflated price for it or there is no more film for it.
If you think it will be worth 0 then I have to say Im in it to see. Lets talk again in 10 years ;)
@@NicosPhotographyShow let´s do that.
@One Minute Video : You’re mad. And you seem to think you have a point. Hell of a mix.