Wonderful video! I love the way Sonor in their 1982 catalog, has a conclusion that says what we already knew: "One size does not fit all." There is no best choice. Hmmm...doesn't that apply to everything in life? Even with the very best choices in drum bearing edges, woods and other things, each of us will end up with a favorite choice which has been modified by what we like to do to our drums in terms of size, heads, tuning, sticks or anything else. Still, this was an educational video worth watching.
You’re my spirit animal. Details details details but you’re ability to not wander too much allows the listener to learn the “why” as well the application. Bravo!
Rick Beato should get you on his show. Not only would the discussion be fascinating, but the mannerisms you two share might make for a unique experience for you both.
Oh the variables! Feels almost infinite when you really think about it. I hope this nerdy journey doesn’t end with just the drum itself, and you end up tackling topics like a drum vs room size and materials, temperature and humidity, etc. You have the insight and use a great approach to deliver the engineering and physics information related to drums. I’ve been searching for this level of detail. Keep it up!!!
The drumhead contact with a shallow angle edge cut will not only bleed off more energy to the drum shell as you mentioned (obviously, dependent on the mass of the shell), but it can also introduce a waveshape distortion to the drum sound. Think of it like this: the head vibrating pattern is essentially a complex sine wave, fundamental note overlapped by a series of harmonics. That contact limits the motion in one direction, flattening the apex of the wave asymmetrically. The edges of the head have a larger proportion of high order harmonics (i.e. mic the edge vs. the center of a head and you'll get two very different harmonic profiles), so you'll distort most there, creating a bunch of additional new harmonics. That will probably be heard as a louder, brighter "crack" on stronger hits followed by a faster decay and "deadening" of the sound. EDIT: create a playlist for these physics videos! Better to have them automatically play one after the other.
Thanks for the excellent excellent information, i thought my old 60's drum kit didn't have bearing edges now i know its a vintage round over, I was just about to go get bearing edges cut, but now I have a much clearer idea about the effects!! Very very helpful thank you!
Ok Joel. Good work. Further to the Sonor Signature Series and Designer Series Kits the bearing edges are 45 degree sharp on the outside edge of shells, these edges are very sharp. I believe this coupled with the very thick shells is what gives these drums their very distinct sound. This has been an interesting listen. Thank you. Shalom.
What do you know. Someone else talking about this on YT. I began my series five years ago. Indeed, the subject matter is controversial but, true. In 60 years of playing and 30 years of making drums, the industry is one of the worst at ultra-hype of their proprietary products. Marketing is king. I remember getting catalogs every year, including Sonor. Rogers were always my dream set but, I grew up on Ludwig. Pearl has a collection of their catalogs on their site and you can literally read the progression of the amount of words and pages used on shell hype. It all began with the emergence of marketing strategy from a particular company I shall not name but, if you are old enough to remember its emergence, the picture becomes clear. It started a manufacturing-hype war back then; which ultimately almost all the companies declared surrender to, save for a couple who remain level-headed to this day. Thanks for stepping out and telling the truth. It needs more individuals putting the message out there to reign in runaway manufacturers and their inflated claims, and bring reality back to advertising.
@@Bill-s5x I'm not certain of the context of your question but, if I am correct, I have found, last time I looked into this, Premier and Gretsch have remained pretty balanced and realistic in the advertising of their drums. I have never looked into Pork Pie under that light. Slingerland seems to come and go, depending on new owners of the company. Back in the day (50's-70's), they never hyped their shells past reasonable statements. No companies had super-hype about their shells. Not that I remember.
Another thing you touched on The best snare in history Tama bell brass snare 80s 90s The outside diameter is super tight to the skin metal rim The only snare (never copied) made like that
Well this is the second video that I have watched of yours.... and I guess this means I am also a "Drum Geek"..... I found both videos informative and very interesting!! Keep up the good work!!!🧐
As a tool and die maker the minimum bend for material over an edge should be 1.5 times the material ( the head) thickness , so there needs to be a radius on the edge.😊
Thanks for this pretty in depth info. I did enjoy it very much. Not a criticism at all, but may I suggest you include some actually audio clips along with your content, so we can hear ' general ' examples of your points. That would take your content from excellent to amazing, and even more helpful to us who thirst for better results. Thanks again.
I SOOOO want to do this!! I'm trying to put this together for a future video, but it will take a bit of preparation, because effectively demonstrating the impact of various bearing edges means all other things, as far as possible, need to be the same. So I can't just compare one of my kit's toms to another, because so many other variables differ (shell material, thickness, wrap, dimensions, etc.), so that wouldn't really be useful. I need to have my buddy Jon (who builds drums) make a few 'identical' drums with different edges, so I can tune them the same with the same heads and compare the performance. So it's an awesome idea, and one that I'm trying to do.... let's hope I can do it soon! I do think that would be tremendously useful.
The only trouble with that idea is that it introduces the effects that the microphone adds which he mentions in the video. He would have to do close miking at different distances from the edge and room mics making a relatively long video even longer. Not to mention the effect of amps and headphones or speakers.
Very good explanation of drum bearing edges!!! You mentioned about tuning issues with bearing edges that aren't true. How would you describe the sound (excessive overtones) of a drum/tom that may have a bearing edge that isn't correct and how bad would it have to be before you would modify the edge to correct the problem or have someone do it for you? I was taught to never modify the bearing edge in any way. Thanks for another great video!!!
Typical tuning issues with uneven edges are odd overtones that are hard to tune out, less defined fundamental pitch and/or increased overtones, and diminished sustain. Boxier tone as well, less full and balanced.
@@drumdotpizza That's good to know. I've heard similar comments from others so this confirms what I've been hearing. If you've done the drum on a flat surface, (back of a mirror for example), with a light showing through in areas that are not completely true and you are seeing some light shine through, how much is enough that you would have the bearing edges re-cut? Should it be a perfectly flat (true) edge? Since the bearing edge affects tuning as you said, I'm wondering how long should a drum (reasonably) stay in tune? Thanks again Joel for your channel and sharing your knowledge.
I taught myself to recut the bearing edges on my 70s Big R Rogers, used a 45° bit on a routing table to achieve the standard 45 with the countercut, and it made an extremely positive change in how the drum sounded. If you have old drums, those bearing edges are so dull, go sharpen them up!
@@drumdotpizza I was blown away. I honestly did not expect the edges to make much of a difference, but they really did have an audible difference after I leveled and routed those edges
About the shell vibration: we should consider in a drum also the "air spring" inside the drum, between the drum heads (unless we have a single head drum). And once the drumshell is not airtight the size/amount of vent hole(s) has effect on the drum's acoustic frequency response too. Here a "loose" and "thight" drumshells play differently even though they were made from a hard or soft material. By loose/tight I refer to the flexibility of a shell. A thin shell is more flexible than a thicccccc one (talking about the usual wooden shells). And on acoustic phenomenoms we should also take in standing waves, comb filtering etc... ...and at the end of this rabbit hole, get reminded about theory vs practice. The geekier we get the smaller the details are and the less they have role in the end-product: music. A great drummer can make a bad snare sound awesome in beats and sounds, the musical context, while a primitive unsophisticated drummer is annoying even with the most expensive amazing drum. Thanks again for a well made thorough video. Very informative. p.s. about the mass difference on bearing edge. That is something SMALLLLLLL, imagine a 1000 gram drumshell and you cut the edge 30 degree vs 45 degrees the mass DIFFERENCE would be maybe 2 grams/edge depending on the shell density. so... less than 1% mass difference. Not practical. The "event horizon" would be more significant for this but the EQ difference of the bearing edges would be more significant on the highest end of frequency spectrum due to the wavelength/amplitude spectrum.
GREAT, GREAT topic and super informative. Thank you , since I love drums as you clearly do, I had researched lots of the stuff you talked about, but, would you PLEASE talk about edges and mass in reference to type of music and venue. I appreciate you and your time massively. Albert.
I will try to do this in a future video. I want to do some type of video discussing the achievable performance characteristics resulting from combinations of these various attributes. Might be a multi parter... or just REALLY long....
Dude, I've never even once thought about my head's shoulders and collars compared to my edges. That's good to know! Talking about surface contact got me thinking about something a prof told me in school and it's rattled around in my brain for 15 years. Two finished, granite countertops, laid on top of each other: at the closest level, those two things are only touching each other at about 30-40% of the surface. The rest is spaces. Seems like bullshit but I doubt he was wrong. It was a lesson about friction and S/A. So if that's granite, it makes me think about how little of the head is actually touching the wood material in the shell. Great shit, sir. Good video AGAIN!
Are we talking drums or shampoo? :) Regarding the edges, yes, getting it flat takes a bit more time and effort which translates to expense (labor and materials). This is a contributing factor to the higher cost of better quality drums (and also why a little elbow grease on one's own can improve the quality of an otherwise cheaper kit in many cases!). As for the head making contact, mylar (or polyester.. the material most all plastic heads are made from) if flexible, and will conform to the shape of an edge. It doesn't do so quite as easily has actual calfskin (or goat skin) does (one reason companies often didn't sweat the bearing edges as much back in the day), but it still conforms. So under any amount of pressure the head probably is making reasonable contact all the way around, particularly with better drums. The ideal is still a flat edge though.
This was very informative and I’m looking forward to the next video. It’s exciting to hear well thought out explanations of some of the previously inexplicable observations I’ve made about the way my drums sound. You’ve talked so far about mass and bearing edge geometry. I’m interested in learning how the type of material plays a role in the sound beyond these factors. Or does it truly just come down to density/mass and geometry? Does the inherent elasticity of the material work to dampen the sound. Does a 1/4” acrylic shell have a different “characteristic impedance” than a 1/4” maple shell?
Wonderful questions, all!! Please stay tuned, and I will be addressing all of these topics in soon-to-come videos. The answers are too long to write hear, so please hit the bell notification button (and subscribe if you haven't :) so you'll be notified when I upload those videos. Thanks so much!!
Love the info here. I have a 32 piece drum set i have been putting together over several years. That being said this is a mixed set and this will help me get the same sound/tone from them. This kind of goes with the thought of an object in motion stay’s in motion until it meets resistance.
@@drumdotpizza no it’s a don’t travel set i am starting to get the things to make a studio for my music equipment. Your channel comes at the right time. I want to get the best natural sound and tone out of set. I am working on the set of 22x30 bass drums i made. Close to the sound i want but still needs adjusting bearing’s may help shape the sound more
I've always looked at the drum head as being a string like on a guitar and having individual strings, but you're tuning to a unison. So if you have 8 lugs per head you have four strings. That is my approach to tuning. That being said the bearing edge is like the bridge and nut on a guitar-bass what have you. I came to this conclusion after being around many really deep guitar players who are also luthiers. On a guitar those two points (the nut and bridge) yield various attack and tone qualities as you change the shape where the string lays on them. So I thought well hell it must do the same thing to a drum...pretty darn logical. I had one acoustic blues guitarist explain the architecture in the groove in nut as "crotch angularity" and the same for the bridge points. The frets are similar but a slightly different subject. Pretty cool info I thought. Thanks for simplifying the mystery of the what? and the why?, very concise. You're good at this stuff man!
Great Video, Joel… thanks for sharing your expertise, experience & for putting in all of the effort to make the video and your channel, for that matter. Great Content, for sure. I wanted to humbly suggest that, in the future, you start the discussion with diagrams/graphics and labels, right from the beginning, so we’re all on the same page and not having to assume what you mean. If you put in all of this effort to make these videos and then someone misunderstands, but thinks that they got your point, then it’s almost worse that not sharing at all. For example, when you say “FLAT” regarding the edge… I don’t think it’s super clear that you mean around the drum from one lug to the next… this should be “flat” …as opposed to the cut or profile of the bearing edge should be “flat”. I still struggle to find the best way to get across this point and I feel sure that I know what you meant and that you know what I’m referring to now. But diagrams, for all of the glossary of terms would clear this up right away and largely prevent any misunderstandings. And of course, so many people watching will be brand new to this. I know this represents more work on your part, but it will help to clear the mud on the subject and also help to make your channel and videos the one stop, best source for education on these subjects. All the best and keep RAWKin’ Joel !!!
Excellent suggestion, and much appreciated! I'm not much of a graphics guy, but will no doubt either become one or hire one as needed for ongoing videos, and will remember to use them as soon as it seems relevant. And yes, I worried about whether people understood what 'flat' edges meant... that is why I also talked about their profile being consistent, their shape, whatever that was, but it probably wasn't the best verbiage. Thanks for your suggestion! I really appreciate all suggestions to make the channel more useful to as many people as possible.
Gracias por estos temas tan interesantes. ¿Podrias explicar la física del rimshot?. Thank you for this very interested topics. Could you explain the physics of the rimshot?
Great videos both 1 and 2, maybe you can do one on drum heads. I’m always looking for the perfect drum sound, I think the head has a lot to do with the sound.
Yet another very informative video - thanks! I love how you broke the complexity down to a couple simple differences. You could do a video on Hoop Types, next 😉
Have you seen the bearing edge comparison in a controlled environment? The 30 degree edge definitely produces a more pleasing sound to my ears ie: typically used by Gretsch drums. Great videos, love your work. 👍
Excellent video. Very informative and useful for me as I make solid wood stave snare drums. DNH Drums. I would love to hear your opinion on solid wood stave vs. laminate vs. metal snare drums.
I'm thinking about slightly sanding the bearing edge of my NEW Tama Superstar Classic 16" floor tom, to make it a bit more like the vintage Superstar bearing edge... I gotta watch this...
Thank you so much for some awesome info. I love the way you go about explaining what the different cuts on the the edges produce. One question I had is would you also replicate the same bearing edge on the resonant side of the shell as you would on the batter side, or does that matter? Thanks again.
Brilliant explanation mate, one of the best I've seen (out of toooooo many). Thank you. What's still eluding me is the inside angle. I understand the importance of the apex and angle/roundover of the outside profile, so as to create the actual bearing edge, but after that, how does the head 'know' and react to whatever the angle is on the inside profile? I'm still thinking about it. Cheers.
In general I don't find the particular angle used inside the cut to be of great importance at all. I stated in the video that all the common angles used, 15, 30, 45, and 60 don't really differ in practical application. Rather, it is the treatment of the apex of the angle, the part that establishes the active diameter of the drum, that matters. Any angle can have a sharp or rounded apex (radius), and there can also be a roundover (or not) on the outside of the cut, but the inside slope of the angle pretty much doesn't make contact with anything, so it's basically passive. Only the event horizon I discussed at the end of the video changes for the different angles, and my ears really can't tell much of a difference at all, so I really don't worry about it. I hope that helps! Thanks for being here!
Ah, so I just got to 27'13", which explains it perfectly (and I think is a first on YT). That'll teach me to not to post comments until I've watched the whole video. Cheers.
If you wanna get your mind blown on bearing edge angle differences, ST drums did a video on YT called The Ultimate Bearing Edge Test. It’s surprising how different they are when doing straight A/B comparisons!
Can I ask a super random question. I have a kit that has fully rounded bearing edges on the kick, and floor tom, (maybe some people might guess what it is hah), but at any rate, I think it's a beautiful kit that I don't want to give up on, but I'm just having some struggles with it in the studio, mainly the kick, but I find the floor tom a little bit too subdued also, but it's not nearly as bad. The Kick/Floor Tom use a bunch of Mahogany in them, so that's already adding some low end, and making them sound darker(have you guessed the kit yet), but it makes sense to me why the they sound like they do. With the Kick, it's like you get attack in the beginning, with a huge amount of low end, but then it just sounds boomy/dark/boxy for lack of better words. It's basically lacking the Low/Midrange resonance, and higher end attack you'd normally expect from a kick, but also I'm doing a lot of heavier/faster Rock/Punk/Metal stuff. To my question, I was thinking about possibly getting the bearing edges modified (professionally) to a 30 or a 45 sort of thing, or some variation, maybe a partially rounded 30-45 etc, but just wondering, do you think it could be worth while to try something like that? Also, do you think it's possible to just get one side of the drum done, so say a 30-45 on the batter, and just leave the Reso fully rounded, or do you think it's pretty important to have both sides the same? I was thinking it might yield an interesting result, but at the same time I'm guessing it's probably been tried, and there's a reason you don't see that on kit's. If I were to try something like that though, the batter would be the side you'd wanna do right, you think? Anyway, just wondering if maybe you had some advice, or thoughts on the matter. Cheers!
General thoughts that might help you: 1) sharper edges will add more complexity of tone to your kick and floor tom with greater sustain as well. Any drum will have attack when it is struck (that is a function of the stick hitting the head), but the darkness of tone after the attack is a function of the edge and shell (and head/muffling). All things being equal a sharper edge will allow the fullness of HF response from your head (if you're using a thick/double-ply/muffled head this will have less impact). 2) Generally matching both sides of the drum with the same head allows them to interact similarly. That is, if one side has a sharp edge and is therefore free to vibrate while the other is rounded and muffling the head, then the muffled head will stifle the vibration of the otherwise livelier head. Usually you want the two to work in concert with each other either to vibrate freely or be more controlled. You have to decide if the expense if worth it, of course, but I think you'd enjoy the improvement (most likely) that new, sharpER edges would give your drums.
Could touch on Sam Bacco's "straight shot" bearing edge? My Craviotto Diamond series kit has those, never changed the heads so I don't know what they look like. But they sound great!!!!
I’m having a log drum built with Australian hardwood shell will be 11mm thick. I want that Brady crack but it’ll be 7” deep. What are your thoughts on bearing edge? Options are: 1. 45 on the inside or Slight round over on the outside with 45 on the inner edge or 2. Round over both sides
I'm a 45 degree guy. Hard to beat the tuning range and overall quality of tone from a 45 degree edge. When I have edges cut I generally do a single 45 with a very small 45 counteract on the outside just to help the head clear the shell a bit... I don't want a lot of contact between head and edge. I like sustain, and sharper edges yield greater sustain from the heads. I can muffle a variety of ways to get the sound I want at a given time, but it's near impossible to add sustain to a drum that doesn't inherently have it. My 2 cents!
One really Good (read as 'bad') way to make bearing edges is sell a lot of convincing theory about how the cheapest, easiest way to cut bearing edges is the best way...in technobabble terms that are fibs at best. Like DW. Sharp double 45 are the hardest to tune and the easiest to come out of tune....
Hi Joel, I am obsessed with your videos. Could you please explain the affect of turning a floor top leg upside down and why that leg digging into carpet reduces the sustain of a floor tom? I'm assuming that it reduces the resonant potential of the shell, which should actually have the opposite effect on the sustain?
I'm actually working on the outline for a video that will explain this right now. Hope to film it and have it out within the next month or so. Short answer, the physical connection between the drum and the floor is quite direct (easy for vibrations to travel) with the bracket bolted to the shell and a straight leg clamped into that bracket. By simply adding strong angles to the leg (DW/PDP use right angles on their legs) you inhibit the direct transfer of energy which helps to isolate the drum from the floor. Direct transfer of energy will rob the drum of energy and make for a dead sound with little sustain. Indirect transfer (isolation) helps to keep the energy in the drum, making for a livelier and more sustaining tone. I hope that is helpful. ??
Hello. I am restoring an old pearl prestige session select (maple/mahogany/maple). Would you recommend to apply some kind of oil to the inside of the shell? Thanks for your time 🙏
I noticed that the Pearl Reference philosophy is the opposite of the Yamaha PHX. Pearl chooses rounded bearing edges on their floor toms and bass drums to make them beefy and round-sounding whereas Yamaha chooses sharper bearing edges for their floor toms and bass drums in order to deliver a “sharper, punchier” sound. Pearl does a rounded off 45 degree cut on their rack toms whereas Yamaha omits a back-cut in order to let more of the shell contact the head on their rack toms. I can’t decide what I like better because there are so many variables affecting the sound on videos online but it is interesting how two elite drum lines have arrived at opposite relationships for bearing edges to drum sizes.
It does become quite muddy, does it not? I have never played the Phoenix kit, but their approach to Phoenix edges does seem to defy convention, so I'm very curious to try spend some time with them. I wish I knew someone with a kit I could mess with! Any ideas?
@@drumdotpizza if I ever make any friends rich enough to own a PHX and a Pearl Reference, I’ll let you know lol I may decide to go with a Pearl Reference set or a Yamaha PHX someday but one person owning both kits seems pretty unlikely. Seems like it would be the ultimate variable-bearing-edge/wood-type drumset shootout though!
Can u explain the reason for the Yamaha Recording Custom shells sounding so "earthy", like they do. Do the full length lugs across the whole length of the shell dampen the shell's vibration considerably? That's a lot of metal. Would a completely round top edge not give the same damping effect?
Mass and edges are two different things. I am not intimately familiar with the design of Recording Custom drums other than the fact that they are birch shells and have the stretch lugs. I am told that they are, compared to more modern designs, thicker, heavier shells, but I have played RC drums in the past, and I don't remember them being anything like what I would consider a heavy shell, like a late 70's Ludwig or Sonor Phonic. Greater mass (from shell or heavy lugs/hardware mounted to the shells) will promote the fundamental tone of the drum and make the harmonics a lesser percentage of the sound (the mass doesn't choke or otherwise diminish the harmonics, mind you, it's just the increased fundamental that makes the harmonics a smaller overall percentage of the drum's tone. I'm not sure what you mean by 'earthy', but if you mean a stronger fundamental tone, more focused, with greater sustain that other drums, then yes, they are probably more MASSive (dense, greater mass) either because of the shells or the shells and hardware together (the hardware will have similar effect of a thicker, more massive shell). Also stock RC drums have no isolation mounts, so the brackets bolted to one side of the shell will put all the force of gravity pushing down on that drum on that one spot, inhibiting vibration of the shell. this will also promote the fundamental tone. Does any of this seem to apply to RC drums in your experience? Thanks for reaching out!
the first purpose of a BE is to transform lug tension into head tension that needs to be as even as possible and controllable : hence perfect geometry and surface roughness. Beyond that the angle will have a big impact on the mechanical impedance of the BE : The shallower the angle the closer. you are to the flexural stiffness of a "wall" - matter removed from cut are first going to influence first the stiffness
Interesting! I never gave much thought to a softer angle have greater edge stiffness due to the increased mass there (or the lower stiffness of steeper edges). I would think that, while totally true, the impact of this would be minimal so long as the tension applied to the edge isn't extreme. On a softer wood shell, like poplar or basswood, I can see this becoming a practical issue, but for maple, birch, and the like, much harder veneers (particularly with the preponderance of glue used in thin shells) this wouldn't be a real concern. VERY interesting food for thought though.... you can just rock me to sleep tonight!!! :)
@@drumdotpizza and also : as you truely state the global impedance of the shell, in contrast with the one of the head will make more sustain for heavy and stiff shells (remember Stephen Volpp Peavey design ? This was about getting a big impedance at head boundaries and still keeping a light shell), it is also true that shell do not radiate sound (not very much) but rather influences head vibration (which radiates the most) through coupling , and the coupling element is the BE in the case of structure borne vibration but you also have to consider the shell being loaded by the sound pressure waves inside - I have built a rig to measure shell behavior in that regard and first conclusion is that in the frequency range of a snare for instance, it is the mass law. Cool to consider 80’s work on drum acoustics but since then some progress has been done (not by any major brand) by universities and…Repercussion !
For a new project I’m working on, I’m considering an 8 ply maple shell (5.4mm) with full round over. It’s a 14x20 bass. Would you consider a different edge for that, or am I on point? Thanks
It will be a beautiful, controlled sound. The hardness and mass of the maple will keep some life in the sound (softer wood with greater surface contact with the head from the rounder edge would absorb more energy, but maple is fairly hard and dense, so that edge would be good to produce a controlled sound, but not dead. Would this be for live/miked use, or for recording? What type of music (and tuning)?
I was planning on this being a live kit. As of right now, I haven't worked on the kit as I'm in ill health. As soon as I'm feeling better, I'll start this build. Say a prayer please!!! 🥁🥁🥁
@@williamfotiou7577 I will indeed say a prayer for you (just did, actually, and have made a note to do daily for the next week). Please let me know how things go!! 🙏
I made a snare drum 14x4 in steel 3mm thick, but I'd like to have it a little bit more sensitive to the snare wires...is there a way I can do that? Thank you
Depends on how they're treated (the tension they have to support) and whether the wood they're made of is hard enough to bear that tension. Softer wood will have softer edges. Tuned with high tension this will likely break down the edges over time and warrant a redo at some point.
Bearing edges are a BIG reason why 70's vistalites got such mixed reviews. The edges were often erratic and wonky. The brittle sounding vistalite could often be linked to how bad the edges were. A similar acrylic shell from rci starlight with perfect edges sounds much fatter and cleaner.
Yep! I have owned three original vistalite snare drums (currently have an original bass drum shell too that I'm rebuilding, but haven't played it yet), and all three snares were very hard to tune. They each had a tuning that seemed to work, but they weren't flexible, sonically, at all. I now have two acrylic snares (all Ludwig hardware) with shells from RCI, and the edges (and tuning ranges) are fantastic. They sound great at all tensions.
This video has been the most helpful so far. I don't think anybody does any bearing edge work where I'm from and it isn't something I hear about, even when nerding out with other drummers. Which is wild because of how much of an impact it has on the drums sound and tunability (or so I've gathered from my research). Have you come across any methods to true up a slightly out of round metal drum? I scored an Acrolite for $35 at a pawn shop! Maybe it was a bargain because of this very mild warp but I've talked to the shops employees and they don't seem like they would discern this issue, let alone that they had an Acrolite on their hands. Anyways I have an idea of how to go about it but I'm interested in what you may advise. Thanks!
I would use care when bending an Acrolite shell back into shape. Aluminum isn't as malleable as brass, but you can do it (and overdo it, so be careful!). Is the concern a 'flat' in one part of one of the edges? Or has it been dropped on a lug, and the shell pushed in at that point? My recommendation for how to address it is different, depending on what the damage is. ????
Great video. I’m an owner of a set with very sharp 45 edges and want to improve tunability and mellow tones. Question: if I wanted to slightly increase bearing edge contact with the drum head, would sanding the edges be okay or too risky? If anyone can provide some guidance here it would be greatly appreciated.
You can mellow the apex with sanding, yes, but be very careful to do so consistently, so you don't wind up with high and low points along the circumference of the edge.
Why does more surface contact (and therefore energy transfer) between the drumhead and bearing edge create an attenuated high-frequency response, while a higher energy transfer to the drum shell results in an attenuated low-frequency response?
Great question! From a purely physical perspective muffling works, because it absorbs energy from the drumhead, that is, energy in the drum head is transferred into the gel, tape, ring, wallet, etc., removing it from the head, absorbing FIRST the high frequencies and then, depending on the amount of muffling, the hi-mids, the mids, working on down.... Rounded edges, provide greater surface contact with the heads, so they have greater physical area to absorb energy from the heads. Round edges won't absorb energy like overt muffling will, but the greater contact does transfer greater energy from the head to the shell (compared to a share edge that provides little surface area contact). As for the latter part of your question, greater energy transfer into the shel will increase the likelihood of the shell beginning to resonate (vibrate) a bit of its own, which is an entirely different pattern of vibration than that of the heads. This cross vibration, 360 degrees around a cylinder, basically, disrupts the vertical energy of the heads and lessens the pronounced fundamental tone/note of the drum. As a result any harmonics present will be a larger percentage of the overall drum sound compared to a shell that isn't vibrating much on its own. Therefore, a more massive drum shell (with literally greater mass) is harder to excite into vibration, and therefore retains more of its fundamental. It is entirely possible to have a massive (literally) shell with rounded edges, but is so great in its mass that it still doesn't vibrate much. This drum would have an attenuated high end (because the shell is still absorbing energy from the head due to the rounded edges), but with a shell mass great enough that it doesn't vibrate much it will still have a strong fundamental. It is also possible that a thin/lightweight/low mass shell should have a sharp edge, but it so lightweight that the shell is still excited into vibration easily, absorbing and disrupting the heads vibration producing a short, punctuated sound that is somewhat bright (not much fundamental). This latter is the state of most inexpensive drum lines with shells made almost entirely of poplar. The fact that they are inexpensive doesn't make them short and punchy -- it's the lightweight and comparatively soft wood that is responsible for that (lightweight and soft compared to maple or birch or other more traditional tone woods). Some of these inexpensive drums can be worked to become much better instruments (truing edges, finishing/sealing interior, gluing the wrap (which is usually taped on such drums), etc.). There are also some very nice custom drums that are largely poplar (INDe's Studio Mod line are great drums that use poplar as the core of the shells with harder woods on the interior and exterior. Nice drums, with a bit more controlled sound, punchy and detailed, but contained and versatile for recording). I hope I explained that well enough to make sense. Thanks for the question!
I've never used it, and I'm not quite sure what I think. It makes a great deal of contact with the rounded collar of the head, so I would tend toward 'rounded' category of bearing edge with all of its attributes, EXCEPT there is a space between the rounded portion and the apex. I would think this break might very well create an inert portion of the head just beyond the active diameter, which might mean characteristics more like edges in the 'sharp' category. I saw a video on their new edge a couple of years back (are they still around? Just looked, and can't find an active website (though may just be my broker acting up?)). The guy tapped the head of a tom, and it appeared to have great sustain, but I'm pretty sure I'm hearing the camera's built in compression, which would create that same effect with any other tom (sounds like camera audio used for that video). If that's the case, then his tap test is really for nothing. Also would really like to hear it against an 'all-other-things-being-equal' drum fro comparison. So my answer is, "it's compelling, but I would like to see more." Assuming it works exactly as he describes I would categorize it as a sharp edge, and would expect a single cut (outside to inside) edge to produce similar results is the diameter is slightly undersized. Basically, any portion of the edge that stretches beyond the shell (into the collar) is effectively inert. The portion that matter is that which makes contact with the shell. It's that little inert 'dip' in the Guru bearing edge that is a magic of that design, assuming it performs as claimed. I love seeing people thinking outside the box and coming up with new ideas. Not everything has been tried, believe it or not, and there is much more to be discovered and implemented. I hope Guru is still around!! Thanks so much for the question!
@@drumdotpizza thanks for your reply. Guru it's sadly no more. The founder/owner had to retire due to health problems. They made some gorgeous drums... I have made a "test drum" rig with a 10" shell with the Guru edge. In my completely unscientific estimation, I would say that it works as advertised. My test rig is basically like a roto tom with no shell, just a bearing edge, made out of wood. Side by side with a 10" roto tom, it definitely has longer sustain. I also think it has a stronger fundamental tone and fewer/quieter overtones. I am also a big fan of Peavey Radial Pro drums. They also tend to have a great deal of sustain, though probably not for the reason that they advertised. They have super sharp bearing edges and the additional mass of the "radial bridge" at the top and bottom of the drum. I love that you, and a few others on RUclips, are talking about the actual physics of drums, rather than the myth and marketing about what characteristics contribute to how a drum sounds. I look forward to more of this topic.
Surely hardware will effect the overall mass of a drum shell? Some drums are incredibly heavy due to the metal work. How much does this effect the sound/Tone of a drum?
Hardware absolutely affects the mass of the shell! And yes, some really heavy drums are so as a result of the hardware (and some of these companies brag about the thinness of their shells... so odd!). Mass, whether in the wood or the hardware will affect the drum's performance. Have you watched the first part of this series? All about the effect of mass on a drum: ruclips.net/video/sKDRDRAphy8/видео.html Thanks for your comment!!!
Hey Joel! I never really thought about where the apex sits on the head until I saw the video that Kirsch Drums posted here on RUclips. Maybe you have seen it. Almost 10 years ago Evans startet their 360 system with much steeper collars to solve these kind of problems. Nevertheless I find Remo heads much more lively and resonant than Evans but that may be due to the material that is being used. One question I had since the last Video which popped back into my head after seeing this Video: Does a thin shell really shorten the sustain of a drum? If I have thin shell and a thick shell with the same bearing edge, wouldn't the force transferd to shell be the same? For example if I punch a thin and a thick Wall with the same amount of force, the thin wall would break while the thick wall wouldn't because of how much energy each wall can absorb. The energy that I'm transfering into the walls however should be equal. So just because my thin shell gets excited and my thick shell doesn't, they should receive the same amount of energy from the head. Then again, I'm no physics expert but I just can't see it in my head. Unless the vibration of the shell goes back into the head and causes cancelation? Please help! :D
What your saying, if I understand it correctly, is spot on: the transfer of energy, all things being equal except the thickness/mass of the shell, is going to be the same. The question is how does the shell respond to that amount of transferred energy? It is basic physics that fixed energy will excite more reaction in lower mass, all other things being equal, so the lower mass shell will vibrate more in response. The shell with greater mass, however, will react less to the transferred energy. Is this enough to excite the denser shell into practical resonance? It won't be as much as with a lower mass shell, but it could still have an impact. The greater the vibration of the shell, however, the shorter the sustain of the drum. This is just a result of the energy being bled off the head(s) into the shell, which removes that energy from the heads (sounds like I'm repeating myself, but literally, with less energy in the heads they simply won't vibrate (sustain) as long). So yes, a lower mass shell, again all other things being equal, will vibrate more, and that shell vibration disrupts the purer behavior of well tuned heads, attenuating the fundamental tone/pitch of the drum, creating a shorter and more harmonic sound. Does that make sense? I'm happy to continue thinking of other ways to explain it if not, no worries. Please let me know! And thanks for reaching out!!
@@drumdotpizza Your explanation is great! I just realized that I have misunderstood one of your points and made it worse by phrasing my question totally wrong! What I intended to ask was "Does the AMOUNT of bleed really differentiate in thinner and heavier shells (let's define thick as heavy and thin as light) and is therefore the reason for a difference in sustain." In this and your last video you were saying things like ".. it robs the energy from the drumhead as it starts to vibrate." which I incorrectly interpreted as an argument that the amount transferd is different. But you were talking about about wave cancelation all along. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I rushed to false conclusions! But here is a another thought you can help me with: A thicker shell reflect the soundwaves inside the sound chamber better/longer, since they can't penetrate the aswell like in a thinner shell. What characteristics does that enhance? I heard people saying it makes for better projection and more volume (Ford drums compared it to a canon, but there we have an opening). But I never understood the correlation completely. Shouldn't it also interfere with resonance and sustain if more soundwaves bounce back to the drumhead?
@@ckdrums3408 You're getting into some serious physics here with the interaction of sound bouncing around inside a cylinder and interacting with the drum heads! (And you have brought up something with your new question that I frankly haven't spent much time thinking directly about, but I believe I can venture a somewhat educated guess :) Yes, greater mass will contain more frequencies for longer, but there isn't much mass in a drumhead, even 2-ply heads (less mass in a head than even a thin shell), so essentially, except for high frequencies, and perhaps some hi-mids (not sure exactly where the line would be) it's all gonna leave the drum by way of the two 'openings' at each end anyway, so I don't see a thicker shell making much difference in that respect. I will say, however, that the hardness of the interior finish greatly affects the higher frequency portion of the sound. High frequencies are stopped by even low mass, so they will stay inside the drum longer if it's got two heads. Inexpensive drums usually don't have a finish on the inside -- it's bare wood. Without some kind of seal on that wood (tung oil, polyurethane, etc) even fairly hard wood will suck up high frequencies fast. By sealing the wood the highs hang around a bit longer, providing a clearer, more articulate sound. Many a cheap drum set can be improved significantly by just sealing the interior!
@@drumdotpizza Your videos certainly spark new trains of thoughts in me which is highly appreciated. When my love for the technical aspects of drums emerged around 8 years ago, I always tried to amount as much knowledge as I could by watching all the videos from different drum makers like Ford, Kirsch, Guru etc. but the topics always seemed to be narrowed down alot and biased on their own concept. Having a professional drummer of many years talking independently about experiences and debunking (or demoneking) marketing hypes with 30 minute videos is pure gold for me. I would love to throw some of the concepts and ideas that I gatherd from reaching out to different drum makers over the years at you and hear what you think about them. Your time is problably very limited, but if you ever have the time and desire to make a podcast for your channel with this kind of theme... let me know! Until then, can't wait for your next video! See you there!
I am honestly not up to date with all the current drum designs (I'm an old fart who loves his vintage Ludwig and Tama drums!). That would be a great question for the folks at Drum Center of Portsmouth, however. Ask for Tony. Those guys know the products they sell and can point you to the products that meet your design requirements. I'm more a vintage drum guy, I'm sorry. I do hope that helps. Seriously, reach out to them, email or phone. Tell them the type of characteristics you're looking for, and they'll let you know what is available to match. Thanks for reaching out!!
Edge consistency is more important by far than the edge type. If the edge isn't level, then the drum will never be in tune. Same is true for the drum shell itself. If the drum is out-of-round then it will be difficult if not impossible to tune.
Great video - really thoroughly enjoyed it along with your previous one! Here's the part that interested me the most - heavy shell drum with round edges = a dull sounding drum. I like to use 2 ply coated heads (usually Coated Emperors) as I just really like the fatness you get from them. But I am aware that they reduce sustain and high frequencies. So my question is: in your experience, does heavy shell drum with a 2 ply coated head = a dull sounding drum?
Does a heavy shell drum with a 2 ply coated head = a dull sounding drum? Answer: it depends. On sharp edges, no. Dull edges? Definitely more so. Keep in mind, too, that my comment about the dull sounding combination (heavy shell, round edges) was taking into account some distance between the mics (or listener) as well. High frequencies are literally dispersed and absorbed by the viscosity of air, so several feet away the life that may exist up close tends to be severely mellowed, particularly if that 'life' (HF content) was minimized to begin with by round edges, muffling, etc. Miked up close, however, it is easy to retain the HF response.... room mics will not hear it that way, however. Perhaps DISTANCE should be another topic for another video? Never thought about that as a worthy topic individually, but maybe it'd be useful, particularly for the people who fancy using as few mics as possible to capture drums. For many years I used coated Emperors on my heavy late 70s Ludwig kit with fantastic results (studio work, miked close). The edges are 30-degrees on those drums, but they've been finished to a fairly sharp apex (by my friend Jon Zoog at Dallas Drum, not by Ludwig). The sharpness of the edges allows for plenty of HF content, though even single ply heads and sharp edges will still produce a darker tone when auditioned across a room if the shell is really dense/heavy. More recently I have really been digging Aquarian single ply texture coated heads (I need to do a review of them), because their film is stiffer than Remo or Evans, and the tonality is something of a balance between a coated Ambassador and a coated Emperor. They have more authority and are a bit more controlled in a 'not dull' way, if that makes any sense (I am extremely sensitive to muffling and prefer none for my general playing style (though you wouldn't know that based on recent uploads to this channel... but I have another coming shortly that will be more typical of my tuning preferences). So I've been using the single ply Aquarian TC heads lately, and they are very lively, yet refined as well. Got a bit OT there, but hopefully that helps answer your question! Thanks so much for your kind words and for being here!
@@drumdotpizza Great answer! Thanks so much for taking your time to write back. I also like minimal dampening on toms when possible. Feel like often when there's a lot of dampening, the toms ultimately end up getting buried in the mix. And that's the last thing I want as I love the toms - probably my favourite part of the kit!
Had a Ludwig Classic ..beautiful kit in natural maple. 45 degree single cut edges. Drums were terrible to get in tune and they favored higher tuning cause you couldn't lower the tension enough to get them to a lower tuning.
Were those the 80s era that had more lugs on the toms? 12" and 13" toms with eight lugs per side, 14" and larger with 10 lugs per side, etc. I find those drums hard to tune, and really don't have the low range of tuning that normal lug arrangements do. It's been awhile since I have played one of those kits. I wonder if the edges of that time also hit the collar of the heads? I never thought to look when I ran across one of those. I recently modified a 12x11 mid-80s 8-lug tom to a 12x8 6-lug tom for a friend of mine (in fact, that's the tom in the video on shell's inherent pitch!). I didn't mess with the edges, though, now that I think about it. It tuned up great when I got it back together, so maybe those edges are fine. I'm a Ludwig fan, but there are definitely some sketchy QC years there in the late 70s/early 80s. I've seen all kinds of odd things from them in that era. Still a big fan though, and love all my Ludwigs. Thanks for sharing!!
Love this series. My findings are… Yes, thicker shells with sharp edges give much more power and projection and a higher pitch but fatter note at the same tension. Thinner shells give more pitch bend less projection and power but are generally warmer sounding. Thin great for recording. Thick great for live work, outside work where power is needed! 👍
Pretty cool video. Let me try to impart my observations and experiences, in other words, my "2 cents worth" LOL As for my background, 60 years of playing time, 10 years of drum building & restoring. A pedigree of automotive + race car building... engineering, machining, welding and fabricating etc. It is my humble opinion, the drum shell has very little if any musical properties what so ever, other than beating on it with some form of battering implement. "insert club of destruction of your choice" LOL My opinion... drum shells are ply's of wood, glued together, more over, glue has no musical properties at all. Then, we bolt a bunch of lugs and other hardware onto the shell and to further discredit all the shell, "residence" madness, a wrap is applied and in many cases, larger drums require multiple pieces to encompass the entire shell. So, my theory is as follows . (1) The thickest shell possible within reason. This make the shell more likely to stay concentric through time and any given conditions and physical stresses. i.e. Humidity and "rim tension" (2) The bearing edge. I prefer a double 45 degree. This seems to produce the most tones possible. A person can then remove any of the unwanted tones. This can be accomplished in so many ways. Here are some but not all. Rim, stamped vs die cast, head type, tone rings, foam rings, moon gel, The ubiquitous Duct Tape. etc etc. OMG!!! Lets not forget about good ole "tuning." LOL So in closing... You can remove tones and notes you do have... You cant extract tones and note that are physically unobtainable. What say you? Thanks again for posting your experience and perspective.
I agree with you almost entirely!! ALMOST, because I do find that the material used in the shell does, in fact, affect the sound, though if you watch my video on tone woods you'll see that I do agree it is secondary to many other factors. Lately I have been big time digging my 5x14 "Vistalite" snare (made with an amber RCI Starlite shell.... MUCH nicer edges than any original vistalite I have played)... it is a mellower, more controlled sound than any of my wooden snares. With no muffling it has just the right amount of musical harmonics/overtones (10mil single ply coated head). I'm just LOVING that drum right now, and the viscosity of the shell material does make it behave quite differently. Then metal, of course, But yes, most woods are easy to confuse, sonically. In my tone woods video I did a comparison of very soft (poplar) shell and relatively hard (sugar maple) shell with identical edges cut by a buddy of mine. They are, in practice, interchangeable with a quality recording engineer/mixer, but the differences are noticeable (and VERY noticeable to the player (me) in the feel of each drum while playing). Thanks so much for your input! I believe we are cut from the same cloth! ;)
Well... it certainly can be. The edges will affect harmonic content of the sound (so yes, in that respect), but also the nature of the shell's material itself will definitely affect the tone/harmonic of the sound too (acrylic vs. wood. vs. metal vs. fiberglass...). Some shell's produce naturally greater harmonic content than others.
I had some intermediate drums circa 2004. The edges were very narrow and the drums just sounded bright and attacky, not much body. I hate that. My 12" tom sounded like other kits 10". tom.
You could round those edges a bit and mellow the brightness, but if you want more body you'll need heavier shells (or some EQ on the other side of a microphone).
Some manufacturers may prefer a shorter sustain and higher harmonic content in their drums' sound. Transferring energy into the shell (by way of rounder edges the give greater surface contact between head and shell) is a way to achieve these objectives.
@@drumdotpizza Glad to help. Really enjoying your videos. I have a 1979/1980'ish Ludwig modular set with the Ludwig die cast hoops on the toms (10, 13,14,15) and virgin 22" kick.
I had to re-cut (table saw) a new edge... it's 90 right now, Ive tested it. It's thuddy but good, not over toning. The Pearl factory was 45. Have you tried this?
I see your gustification to a 45 45 because you’d have to tighten high to mold head to shell Bongo was known to overtighten head and sit on it to leaving a bowling ball on it to mold the head to the shell What a lot of drum tech do. High EVEN tension then a heat gun evenly to mold it to the shell. You get nice low pitch
How DARE YOU...... kidding. I think that tuing range plays into the equation a bunch as does the size of the drum diam. I built a 10" tom that just sings. Very thin 4 ply Keller from PD. But I have an old Imperial star with Mahogany shell that is thicker and it too just sings. Bigger drums may start to vibrate and cancel head vibration more easily. Depends on the pitch range. Don't even get me started on shell pitch stamping. Unless it is a tabla, It is of less than No concern. Drumset toms are simply implied pitches with implied melodic uses. And if it were pitch specific, you would want to be able to dampen sustain like a vibraphone damper or you would have sustained notes when not appropriate. Love your stuff ❤️
AND.... I'm guessing that thin, 4-ply Keller tom shell is maple? The Imperialstar shell is not only thicker, but the Lauan (Philippine Mahogany) it is made of is considerably softer, and the I guarantee there are more vertically oriented plies in that Imperialstar than the Keller (almost certainly the interior ply is vertically oriented.. almost all Imperialstars I've owned have been). Both have a very low inherent pitch (when you do the thump test on the shel).. the Keller, because the veneers are so thin they wood fibers don't resist the bending like thicker plies do, so the pitch isn't raised as much under the tension, and the Tama, because of greater mass (9 plies) and lots of vertically oriented veneers. It's all so complex and interesting it just makes one's head spin, no?? I'm actually about to tackle tone woods in the next installment in this series. I'll try to keep it under an hour.... wish me luck!!! :)
If the shell is light enough to vibrate, then allowing it to do so (through rounder edges and isolation mounts) will dampen the fundamental, making the harmonic content a higher percentage of the sound. This also shortens decay/sustain, but again, if that is the sound you want, then thinner, vibrating shells are a way to that end. If the shells are too dense then all the surface contact in the world between head and shell won't actually make the shell vibrate much.
19:48 well, actually Drums should be smaller in Diameter so the bearing edge is never in contact with the collar, only with the plank surface of the head. I also dont understand the difference between 45 , 30, 60 degree cuts. The only contact between the head and the drum is the tip of the bearing edge which can be formed from sharp to fully round. How does a sharp 60 degree Cut Sound different from a sharp 45 cut. All thats touching the head is the tip of the bearing edge?
There is SO much nitpicking with Drumz these days! If you put a calftone or similar head on a drum with a sharp bearing edge and put a single ply clear diplomat style on a rounded edge the resulting sounds will skew all preconceive notions of bearing edge tone IMHO
Well said! All these features of drums do impact sound, but ultimately it'll all be affected by the heads, tuning, muffling (not to mention the actual playing!). I like to break all the hype down to its simplest form, so people don't get too freaked out about one attribute or another... it's not worth freaking out. Well built drums sound great... pick you head and tuning and roll!!
Well, technically that depends on what you mean by 'resonance.' If you mean the shell vibrates longer when thumped (with no hardware on it), then yes, modern, thin, rigid shells (that have higher glue-to-wood ratio than older, thicker ply shells) do, indeed, vibrate longer than thicker shells. Thinner veneers' used in modern shells also have less resistance to strain (being forced into a curve against the grain) resulting in a lower pitch compared to the thicker veneers whose greater resistance so such strain results in higher pitch. So modern, think shells generally have lower pitch (when thumped) and vibrate longer (when thumped). Thicker vintage shells (1980s) generally have higher pitches and don't vibrate as long. The effect of all this on the tone of the assembled and tuned drum, however, is something of an inverse to the raw shell. Modern shells, due to their ability to vibrate easily do so when the drum is played which actually dampens the fundamental tone giving a higher harmonic content (so the drum sounds 'brighter' than a thick drum). The thicker shell drum, whose shell doesn't vibrate so easily will resist vibrating a bit more when played yielding a stronger fundamental pitch (boom!) with the same amount of overtones, though given the strength of the fundamental tone the overtones are a smaller percentage of the overall sound, so the tone is mellower overall (though louder from a purely amplitude perspective). You're right... it's weird! ;) If, however, you mean
I think you are describing why I didn’t like those Yamaha Maple Absolute shells when compared to my Recording Customs. I thought they were going to have a “lower” pitch and more sustain and instead it felt more like tin cans. It was very confusing and went against all the marketing. They were “pretty” but so much weaker and didn’t pack the wallop of the RC and early 80s Ludwigs I had.
I never understood any of this terminology before. This video is excellent, I now know what people are talking about. Thank you.
Wonderful video! I love the way Sonor in their 1982 catalog, has a conclusion that says what we already knew: "One size does not fit all." There is no best choice. Hmmm...doesn't that apply to everything in life?
Even with the very best choices in drum bearing edges, woods and other things, each of us will end up with a favorite choice which has been modified by what we like to do to our drums in terms of size, heads, tuning, sticks or anything else. Still, this was an educational video worth watching.
You’re my spirit animal.
Details details details but you’re ability to not wander too much allows the listener to learn the “why” as well the application.
Bravo!
Just hanging out in my studio and letting this vid run in the background. Once again... BRAVO! Great info for the masses. Clear, concise and succinct.
Rick Beato should get you on his show. Not only would the discussion be fascinating, but the mannerisms you two share might make for a unique experience for you both.
I love Rick Beato! That'd be fun. Maybe someday!
Oh the variables! Feels almost infinite when you really think about it. I hope this nerdy journey doesn’t end with just the drum itself, and you end up tackling topics like a drum vs room size and materials, temperature and humidity, etc. You have the insight and use a great approach to deliver the engineering and physics information related to drums. I’ve been searching for this level of detail. Keep it up!!!
Much appreciated!
Loving these videos - actual facts and the science behind it instead of the folk "wisdom" that surrounds these complicated instruments.
The drumhead contact with a shallow angle edge cut will not only bleed off more energy to the drum shell as you mentioned (obviously, dependent on the mass of the shell), but it can also introduce a waveshape distortion to the drum sound.
Think of it like this: the head vibrating pattern is essentially a complex sine wave, fundamental note overlapped by a series of harmonics. That contact limits the motion in one direction, flattening the apex of the wave asymmetrically. The edges of the head have a larger proportion of high order harmonics (i.e. mic the edge vs. the center of a head and you'll get two very different harmonic profiles), so you'll distort most there, creating a bunch of additional new harmonics.
That will probably be heard as a louder, brighter "crack" on stronger hits followed by a faster decay and "deadening" of the sound.
EDIT: create a playlist for these physics videos! Better to have them automatically play one after the other.
Excellent stuff, thank you! And yes, a playlist is a good idea (though only two videos in the series so far).
Thanks for the excellent excellent information, i thought my old 60's drum kit didn't have bearing edges now i know its a vintage round over, I was just about to go get bearing edges cut, but now I have a much clearer idea about the effects!! Very very helpful thank you!
So glad I could shed some light on that! Thanks for watching!
I'm loving this series mate.. I just got into building a unique type of stave shell so your information is invaluable.. cheers
The Einstein of drum physics, great content!
Thank you!! I do hope people are finding it helpful!
Great. I appreciate your analytical approach and break down of the details of how drums are made and the impact on the sound. Thanks.
I was looking forward for the next episode of the series! Keep it going!
Will do!
I learnt a great deal again I can't thank you enough see you next time brother
I love this series, this is fantastic, thank you so much for making these videos, this shit is awesome.
This was super informative!! Great video. Finally someone took the voodoo out of bearing edges!
Thank you for doing these and making them easily understandable.
Ok Joel. Good work. Further to the Sonor Signature Series and Designer Series Kits the bearing edges are 45 degree sharp on the outside edge of shells, these edges are very sharp. I believe this coupled with the very thick shells is what gives these drums their very distinct sound. This has been an interesting listen. Thank you. Shalom.
U r the Einstein of drum physics!
Great video, straight to the point, sufficiently detailed but not too overwhelming....subscribed...keep on!!
Hey, very interesting to know. Appreciate the physics around your approach buddy.
Love your informative content, also very well represented, cheers!
Love your videos. Fantastic info and depth of knowledge. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
What do you know. Someone else talking about this on YT. I began my series five years ago. Indeed, the subject matter is controversial but, true. In 60 years of playing and 30 years of making drums, the industry is one of the worst at ultra-hype of their proprietary products. Marketing is king.
I remember getting catalogs every year, including Sonor. Rogers were always my dream set but, I grew up on Ludwig. Pearl has a collection of their catalogs on their site and you can literally read the progression of the amount of words and pages used on shell hype. It all began with the emergence of marketing strategy from a particular company I shall not name but, if you are old enough to remember its emergence, the picture becomes clear. It started a manufacturing-hype war back then; which ultimately almost all the companies declared surrender to, save for a couple who remain level-headed to this day.
Thanks for stepping out and telling the truth. It needs more individuals putting the message out there to reign in runaway manufacturers and their inflated claims, and bring reality back to advertising.
Mapex, Tama, Slingerland, Yamaha, PDP, Pork Pie or Premier?
@@Bill-s5x I'm not certain of the context of your question but, if I am correct, I have found, last time I looked into this, Premier and Gretsch have remained pretty balanced and realistic in the advertising of their drums. I have never looked into Pork Pie under that light. Slingerland seems to come and go, depending on new owners of the company. Back in the day (50's-70's), they never hyped their shells past reasonable statements. No companies had super-hype about their shells. Not that I remember.
Good stuff please continue to geek out.
Really great video again. Learning so much from you keep up the great content
Now I love it even more!
I love this information and vid, thank you.
Excellent episode my friend.
Your vids are a great resource 😃
Man I don’t really think I learned anything about beating edges but I feel I understand Quantum Physics more than
Another thing you touched on
The best snare in history
Tama bell brass snare 80s 90s
The outside diameter is super tight to the skin metal rim
The only snare (never copied) made like that
This was incredible
Well this is the second video that I have watched of yours.... and I guess this means I am also a "Drum Geek"..... I found both videos informative and very interesting!! Keep up the good work!!!🧐
Thanks so much, Bruce!
Awesome. Thank you!
As a tool and die maker the minimum bend for material over an edge should be 1.5 times the material ( the head) thickness , so there needs to be a radius on the edge.😊
Thanks for this pretty in depth info. I did enjoy it very much. Not a criticism at all, but may I suggest you include some actually audio clips along with your content, so we can hear ' general ' examples of your points. That would take your content from excellent to amazing, and even more helpful to us who thirst for better results. Thanks again.
I SOOOO want to do this!! I'm trying to put this together for a future video, but it will take a bit of preparation, because effectively demonstrating the impact of various bearing edges means all other things, as far as possible, need to be the same. So I can't just compare one of my kit's toms to another, because so many other variables differ (shell material, thickness, wrap, dimensions, etc.), so that wouldn't really be useful. I need to have my buddy Jon (who builds drums) make a few 'identical' drums with different edges, so I can tune them the same with the same heads and compare the performance. So it's an awesome idea, and one that I'm trying to do.... let's hope I can do it soon! I do think that would be tremendously useful.
The only trouble with that idea is that it introduces the effects that the microphone adds which he mentions in the video. He would have to do close miking at different distances from the edge and room mics making a relatively long video even longer. Not to mention the effect of amps and headphones or speakers.
Very good explanation of drum bearing edges!!! You mentioned about tuning issues with bearing edges that aren't true. How would you describe the sound (excessive overtones) of a drum/tom that may have a bearing edge that isn't correct and how bad would it have to be before you would modify the edge to correct the problem or have someone do it for you? I was taught to never modify the bearing edge in any way. Thanks for another great video!!!
Typical tuning issues with uneven edges are odd overtones that are hard to tune out, less defined fundamental pitch and/or increased overtones, and diminished sustain. Boxier tone as well, less full and balanced.
@@drumdotpizza That's good to know. I've heard similar comments from others so this confirms what I've been hearing. If you've done the drum on a flat surface, (back of a mirror for example), with a light showing through in areas that are not completely true and you are seeing some light shine through, how much is enough that you would have the bearing edges re-cut? Should it be a perfectly flat (true) edge? Since the bearing edge affects tuning as you said, I'm wondering how long should a drum (reasonably) stay in tune? Thanks again Joel for your channel and sharing your knowledge.
I taught myself to recut the bearing edges on my 70s Big R Rogers, used a 45° bit on a routing table to achieve the standard 45 with the countercut, and it made an extremely positive change in how the drum sounded. If you have old drums, those bearing edges are so dull, go sharpen them up!
Vintage drums tend to have a vibe about them, and it is amazing how that vibe can change with sharper edges (greater tuning range, more modern sound).
@@drumdotpizza I was blown away. I honestly did not expect the edges to make much of a difference, but they really did have an audible difference after I leveled and routed those edges
About the shell vibration: we should consider in a drum also the "air spring" inside the drum, between the drum heads (unless we have a single head drum). And once the drumshell is not airtight the size/amount of vent hole(s) has effect on the drum's acoustic frequency response too.
Here a "loose" and "thight" drumshells play differently even though they were made from a hard or soft material. By loose/tight I refer to the flexibility of a shell. A thin shell is more flexible than a thicccccc one (talking about the usual wooden shells).
And on acoustic phenomenoms we should also take in standing waves, comb filtering etc...
...and at the end of this rabbit hole, get reminded about theory vs practice. The geekier we get the smaller the details are and the less they have role in the end-product: music. A great drummer can make a bad snare sound awesome in beats and sounds, the musical context, while a primitive unsophisticated drummer is annoying even with the most expensive amazing drum.
Thanks again for a well made thorough video. Very informative.
p.s. about the mass difference on bearing edge. That is something SMALLLLLLL, imagine a 1000 gram drumshell and you cut the edge 30 degree vs 45 degrees the mass DIFFERENCE would be maybe 2 grams/edge depending on the shell density. so... less than 1% mass difference. Not practical. The "event horizon" would be more significant for this but the EQ difference of the bearing edges would be more significant on the highest end of frequency spectrum due to the wavelength/amplitude spectrum.
GREAT, GREAT topic and super informative. Thank you , since I love drums as you clearly do, I had researched lots of the stuff you talked about, but, would you PLEASE talk about edges and mass in reference to type of music and venue. I appreciate you and your time massively. Albert.
I will try to do this in a future video. I want to do some type of video discussing the achievable performance characteristics resulting from combinations of these various attributes.
Might be a multi parter... or just REALLY long....
Dude, I've never even once thought about my head's shoulders and collars compared to my edges. That's good to know!
Talking about surface contact got me thinking about something a prof told me in school and it's rattled around in my brain for 15 years. Two finished, granite countertops, laid on top of each other: at the closest level, those two things are only touching each other at about 30-40% of the surface. The rest is spaces. Seems like bullshit but I doubt he was wrong. It was a lesson about friction and S/A. So if that's granite, it makes me think about how little of the head is actually touching the wood material in the shell. Great shit, sir. Good video AGAIN!
Are we talking drums or shampoo? :)
Regarding the edges, yes, getting it flat takes a bit more time and effort which translates to expense (labor and materials). This is a contributing factor to the higher cost of better quality drums (and also why a little elbow grease on one's own can improve the quality of an otherwise cheaper kit in many cases!).
As for the head making contact, mylar (or polyester.. the material most all plastic heads are made from) if flexible, and will conform to the shape of an edge. It doesn't do so quite as easily has actual calfskin (or goat skin) does (one reason companies often didn't sweat the bearing edges as much back in the day), but it still conforms. So under any amount of pressure the head probably is making reasonable contact all the way around, particularly with better drums. The ideal is still a flat edge though.
This was very informative and I’m looking forward to the next video. It’s exciting to hear well thought out explanations of some of the previously inexplicable observations I’ve made about the way my drums sound. You’ve talked so far about mass and bearing edge geometry. I’m interested in learning how the type of material plays a role in the sound beyond these factors. Or does it truly just come down to density/mass and geometry? Does the inherent elasticity of the material work to dampen the sound. Does a 1/4” acrylic shell have a different “characteristic impedance” than a 1/4” maple shell?
Wonderful questions, all!! Please stay tuned, and I will be addressing all of these topics in soon-to-come videos. The answers are too long to write hear, so please hit the bell notification button (and subscribe if you haven't :) so you'll be notified when I upload those videos. Thanks so much!!
Love the info here. I have a 32 piece drum set i have been putting together over several years. That being said this is a mixed set and this will help me get the same sound/tone from them. This kind of goes with the thought of an object in motion stay’s in motion until it meets resistance.
Wow!! 32-piece?? I hope you don't plan to travel with it!
And yes, were it not for friction drums would sustain foreeeverrr.....
@@drumdotpizza no it’s a don’t travel set i am starting to get the things to make a studio for my music equipment. Your channel comes at the right time. I want to get the best natural sound and tone out of set. I am working on the set of 22x30 bass drums i made. Close to the sound i want but still needs adjusting bearing’s may help shape the sound more
@@jefflincoln1374 You gotta share pics and audio of that kit when you're done! I want to check it out!
@@drumdotpizza catch me on Facebook and i will send some pictures. I can’t send them on comment
@@jefflincoln1374 Which Jeff Lincoln are you on FB?
I've always looked at the drum head as being a string like on a guitar and having individual strings, but you're tuning to a unison. So if you have 8 lugs per head you have four strings. That is my approach to tuning. That being said the bearing edge is like the bridge and nut on a guitar-bass what have you. I came to this conclusion after being around many really deep guitar players who are also luthiers. On a guitar those two points (the nut and bridge) yield various attack and tone qualities as you change the shape where the string lays on them. So I thought well hell it must do the same thing to a drum...pretty darn logical. I had one acoustic blues guitarist explain the architecture in the groove in nut as "crotch angularity" and the same for the bridge points. The frets are similar but a slightly different subject. Pretty cool info I thought. Thanks for simplifying the mystery of the what? and the why?, very concise. You're good at this stuff man!
Thank you!
Great Video, Joel… thanks for sharing your expertise, experience & for putting in all of the effort to make the video and your channel, for that matter.
Great Content, for sure. I wanted to humbly suggest that, in the future, you start the discussion with diagrams/graphics and labels, right from the beginning, so we’re all on the same page and not having to assume what you mean. If you put in all of this effort to make these videos and then someone misunderstands, but thinks that they got your point, then it’s almost worse that not sharing at all. For example, when you say “FLAT” regarding the edge… I don’t think it’s super clear that you mean around the drum from one lug to the next… this should be “flat” …as opposed to the cut or profile of the bearing edge should be “flat”. I still struggle to find the best way to get across this point and I feel sure that I know what you meant and that you know what I’m referring to now. But diagrams, for all of the glossary of terms would clear this up right away and largely prevent any misunderstandings. And of course, so many people watching will be brand new to this. I know this represents more work on your part, but it will help to clear the mud on the subject and also help to make your channel and videos the one stop, best source for education on these subjects. All the best and keep RAWKin’ Joel !!!
Excellent suggestion, and much appreciated! I'm not much of a graphics guy, but will no doubt either become one or hire one as needed for ongoing videos, and will remember to use them as soon as it seems relevant.
And yes, I worried about whether people understood what 'flat' edges meant... that is why I also talked about their profile being consistent, their shape, whatever that was, but it probably wasn't the best verbiage.
Thanks for your suggestion! I really appreciate all suggestions to make the channel more useful to as many people as possible.
Gracias por estos temas tan interesantes. ¿Podrias explicar la física del rimshot?. Thank you for this very interested topics. Could you explain the physics of the rimshot?
More great into!
Great videos both 1 and 2, maybe you can do one on drum heads. I’m always looking for the perfect drum sound, I think the head has a lot to do with the sound.
Heads have TONS to do with the sound... and yes, a video is coming for that...
Yet another very informative video - thanks! I love how you broke the complexity down to a couple simple differences.
You could do a video on Hoop Types, next 😉
Excellent suggestion, thank you!! I have added a discussion of hoop types to my topic matrix!
Have you seen the bearing edge comparison in a controlled environment? The 30 degree edge definitely produces a more pleasing sound to my ears ie: typically used by Gretsch drums.
Great videos, love your work. 👍
Excellent video. Very informative and useful for me as I make solid wood stave snare drums. DNH Drums. I would love to hear your opinion on solid wood stave vs. laminate vs. metal snare drums.
I'm thinking about slightly sanding the bearing edge of my NEW Tama Superstar Classic 16" floor tom, to make it a bit more like the vintage Superstar bearing edge... I gotta watch this...
Thin as hell shell I used a flat edge and keller maple 5 ply magnum a nice carbon fiber inner layer with the dark drum sounds great.
Good video
Thank you so much for some awesome info. I love the way you go about explaining what the different cuts on the the edges produce. One question I had is would you also replicate the same bearing edge on the resonant side of the shell as you would on the batter side, or does that matter? Thanks again.
Brilliant explanation mate, one of the best I've seen (out of toooooo many). Thank you. What's still eluding me is the inside angle. I understand the importance of the apex and angle/roundover of the outside profile, so as to create the actual bearing edge, but after that, how does the head 'know' and react to whatever the angle is on the inside profile? I'm still thinking about it. Cheers.
In general I don't find the particular angle used inside the cut to be of great importance at all. I stated in the video that all the common angles used, 15, 30, 45, and 60 don't really differ in practical application. Rather, it is the treatment of the apex of the angle, the part that establishes the active diameter of the drum, that matters. Any angle can have a sharp or rounded apex (radius), and there can also be a roundover (or not) on the outside of the cut, but the inside slope of the angle pretty much doesn't make contact with anything, so it's basically passive. Only the event horizon I discussed at the end of the video changes for the different angles, and my ears really can't tell much of a difference at all, so I really don't worry about it.
I hope that helps! Thanks for being here!
Ah, so I just got to 27'13", which explains it perfectly (and I think is a first on YT). That'll teach me to not to post comments until I've watched the whole video. Cheers.
If you wanna get your mind blown on bearing edge angle differences, ST drums did a video on YT called The Ultimate Bearing Edge Test. It’s surprising how different they are when doing straight A/B comparisons!
Can I ask a super random question. I have a kit that has fully rounded bearing edges on the kick, and floor tom, (maybe some people might guess what it is hah), but at any rate, I think it's a beautiful kit that I don't want to give up on, but I'm just having some struggles with it in the studio, mainly the kick, but I find the floor tom a little bit too subdued also, but it's not nearly as bad.
The Kick/Floor Tom use a bunch of Mahogany in them, so that's already adding some low end, and making them sound darker(have you guessed the kit yet), but it makes sense to me why the they sound like they do. With the Kick, it's like you get attack in the beginning, with a huge amount of low end, but then it just sounds boomy/dark/boxy for lack of better words. It's basically lacking the Low/Midrange resonance, and higher end attack you'd normally expect from a kick, but also I'm doing a lot of heavier/faster Rock/Punk/Metal stuff.
To my question, I was thinking about possibly getting the bearing edges modified (professionally) to a 30 or a 45 sort of thing, or some variation, maybe a partially rounded 30-45 etc, but just wondering, do you think it could be worth while to try something like that? Also, do you think it's possible to just get one side of the drum done, so say a 30-45 on the batter, and just leave the Reso fully rounded, or do you think it's pretty important to have both sides the same? I was thinking it might yield an interesting result, but at the same time I'm guessing it's probably been tried, and there's a reason you don't see that on kit's. If I were to try something like that though, the batter would be the side you'd wanna do right, you think?
Anyway, just wondering if maybe you had some advice, or thoughts on the matter. Cheers!
General thoughts that might help you:
1) sharper edges will add more complexity of tone to your kick and floor tom with greater sustain as well. Any drum will have attack when it is struck (that is a function of the stick hitting the head), but the darkness of tone after the attack is a function of the edge and shell (and head/muffling). All things being equal a sharper edge will allow the fullness of HF response from your head (if you're using a thick/double-ply/muffled head this will have less impact).
2) Generally matching both sides of the drum with the same head allows them to interact similarly. That is, if one side has a sharp edge and is therefore free to vibrate while the other is rounded and muffling the head, then the muffled head will stifle the vibration of the otherwise livelier head. Usually you want the two to work in concert with each other either to vibrate freely or be more controlled.
You have to decide if the expense if worth it, of course, but I think you'd enjoy the improvement (most likely) that new, sharpER edges would give your drums.
Thx excellent video
Could touch on Sam Bacco's "straight shot" bearing edge? My Craviotto Diamond series kit has those, never changed the heads so I don't know what they look like. But they sound great!!!!
I am unfamiliar with that, by the name anyway. Thanks for the head up! I'll have to look into that.
@@drumdotpizza I was hoping you would know about it. I can hardly find any info online....
I’m having a log drum built with Australian hardwood shell will be 11mm thick. I want that Brady crack but it’ll be 7” deep. What are your thoughts on bearing edge? Options are: 1. 45 on the inside or
Slight round over on the outside with 45 on the inner edge or 2.
Round over both sides
I'm a 45 degree guy. Hard to beat the tuning range and overall quality of tone from a 45 degree edge. When I have edges cut I generally do a single 45 with a very small 45 counteract on the outside just to help the head clear the shell a bit... I don't want a lot of contact between head and edge. I like sustain, and sharper edges yield greater sustain from the heads. I can muffle a variety of ways to get the sound I want at a given time, but it's near impossible to add sustain to a drum that doesn't inherently have it.
My 2 cents!
One really Good (read as 'bad') way to make bearing edges is sell a lot of convincing theory about how the cheapest, easiest way to cut bearing edges is the best way...in technobabble terms that are fibs at best. Like DW. Sharp double 45 are the hardest to tune and the easiest to come out of tune....
Hi Joel, I am obsessed with your videos. Could you please explain the affect of turning a floor top leg upside down and why that leg digging into carpet reduces the sustain of a floor tom? I'm assuming that it reduces the resonant potential of the shell, which should actually have the opposite effect on the sustain?
I'm actually working on the outline for a video that will explain this right now. Hope to film it and have it out within the next month or so.
Short answer, the physical connection between the drum and the floor is quite direct (easy for vibrations to travel) with the bracket bolted to the shell and a straight leg clamped into that bracket. By simply adding strong angles to the leg (DW/PDP use right angles on their legs) you inhibit the direct transfer of energy which helps to isolate the drum from the floor.
Direct transfer of energy will rob the drum of energy and make for a dead sound with little sustain. Indirect transfer (isolation) helps to keep the energy in the drum, making for a livelier and more sustaining tone.
I hope that is helpful. ??
Hello.
I am restoring an old pearl prestige session select (maple/mahogany/maple). Would you recommend to apply some kind of oil to the inside of the shell?
Thanks for your time 🙏
I noticed that the Pearl Reference philosophy is the opposite of the Yamaha PHX. Pearl chooses rounded bearing edges on their floor toms and bass drums to make them beefy and round-sounding whereas Yamaha chooses sharper bearing edges for their floor toms and bass drums in order to deliver a “sharper, punchier” sound. Pearl does a rounded off 45 degree cut on their rack toms whereas Yamaha omits a back-cut in order to let more of the shell contact the head on their rack toms. I can’t decide what I like better because there are so many variables affecting the sound on videos online but it is interesting how two elite drum lines have arrived at opposite relationships for bearing edges to drum sizes.
It does become quite muddy, does it not? I have never played the Phoenix kit, but their approach to Phoenix edges does seem to defy convention, so I'm very curious to try spend some time with them. I wish I knew someone with a kit I could mess with! Any ideas?
@@drumdotpizza if I ever make any friends rich enough to own a PHX and a Pearl Reference, I’ll let you know lol I may decide to go with a Pearl Reference set or a Yamaha PHX someday but one person owning both kits seems pretty unlikely. Seems like it would be the ultimate variable-bearing-edge/wood-type drumset shootout though!
Can u explain the reason for the Yamaha Recording Custom shells sounding so "earthy", like they do. Do the full length lugs across the whole length of the shell dampen the shell's vibration considerably? That's a lot of metal. Would a completely round top edge not give the same damping effect?
Mass and edges are two different things. I am not intimately familiar with the design of Recording Custom drums other than the fact that they are birch shells and have the stretch lugs. I am told that they are, compared to more modern designs, thicker, heavier shells, but I have played RC drums in the past, and I don't remember them being anything like what I would consider a heavy shell, like a late 70's Ludwig or Sonor Phonic.
Greater mass (from shell or heavy lugs/hardware mounted to the shells) will promote the fundamental tone of the drum and make the harmonics a lesser percentage of the sound (the mass doesn't choke or otherwise diminish the harmonics, mind you, it's just the increased fundamental that makes the harmonics a smaller overall percentage of the drum's tone.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'earthy', but if you mean a stronger fundamental tone, more focused, with greater sustain that other drums, then yes, they are probably more MASSive (dense, greater mass) either because of the shells or the shells and hardware together (the hardware will have similar effect of a thicker, more massive shell).
Also stock RC drums have no isolation mounts, so the brackets bolted to one side of the shell will put all the force of gravity pushing down on that drum on that one spot, inhibiting vibration of the shell. this will also promote the fundamental tone.
Does any of this seem to apply to RC drums in your experience?
Thanks for reaching out!
the first purpose of a BE is to transform lug tension into head tension that needs to be as even as possible and controllable : hence perfect geometry and surface roughness. Beyond that the angle will have a big impact on the mechanical impedance of the BE : The shallower the angle the closer. you are to the flexural stiffness of a "wall" - matter removed from cut are first going to influence first the stiffness
Interesting! I never gave much thought to a softer angle have greater edge stiffness due to the increased mass there (or the lower stiffness of steeper edges). I would think that, while totally true, the impact of this would be minimal so long as the tension applied to the edge isn't extreme. On a softer wood shell, like poplar or basswood, I can see this becoming a practical issue, but for maple, birch, and the like, much harder veneers (particularly with the preponderance of glue used in thin shells) this wouldn't be a real concern.
VERY interesting food for thought though.... you can just rock me to sleep tonight!!! :)
@@drumdotpizza and also : as you truely state the global impedance of the shell, in contrast with the one of the head will make more sustain for heavy and stiff shells (remember Stephen Volpp Peavey design ? This was about getting a big impedance at head boundaries and still keeping a light shell), it is also true that shell do not radiate sound (not very much) but rather influences head vibration (which radiates the most) through coupling , and the coupling element is the BE in the case of structure borne vibration but you also have to consider the shell being loaded by the sound pressure waves inside - I have built a rig to measure shell behavior in that regard and first conclusion is that in the frequency range of a snare for instance, it is the mass law. Cool to consider 80’s work on drum acoustics but since then some progress has been done (not by any major brand) by universities and…Repercussion !
For a new project I’m working on, I’m considering an 8 ply maple shell (5.4mm) with full round over. It’s a 14x20 bass. Would you consider a different edge for that, or am I on point? Thanks
It will be a beautiful, controlled sound. The hardness and mass of the maple will keep some life in the sound (softer wood with greater surface contact with the head from the rounder edge would absorb more energy, but maple is fairly hard and dense, so that edge would be good to produce a controlled sound, but not dead.
Would this be for live/miked use, or for recording? What type of music (and tuning)?
I was planning on this being a live kit. As of right now, I haven't worked on the kit as I'm in ill health. As soon as I'm feeling better, I'll start this build. Say a prayer please!!! 🥁🥁🥁
@@williamfotiou7577 I will indeed say a prayer for you (just did, actually, and have made a note to do daily for the next week). Please let me know how things go!! 🙏
I made a snare drum 14x4 in steel 3mm thick, but I'd like to have it a little bit more sensitive to the snare wires...is there a way I can do that? Thank you
Thank you for the information! But I still have a question. Do bearing edges lose sharpness through time? And need to be redone again?
Depends on how they're treated (the tension they have to support) and whether the wood they're made of is hard enough to bear that tension. Softer wood will have softer edges. Tuned with high tension this will likely break down the edges over time and warrant a redo at some point.
Bearing edges are a BIG reason why 70's vistalites got such mixed reviews. The edges were often erratic and wonky. The brittle sounding vistalite could often be linked to how bad the edges were. A similar acrylic shell from rci starlight with perfect edges sounds much fatter and cleaner.
Yep! I have owned three original vistalite snare drums (currently have an original bass drum shell too that I'm rebuilding, but haven't played it yet), and all three snares were very hard to tune. They each had a tuning that seemed to work, but they weren't flexible, sonically, at all. I now have two acrylic snares (all Ludwig hardware) with shells from RCI, and the edges (and tuning ranges) are fantastic. They sound great at all tensions.
This video has been the most helpful so far. I don't think anybody does any bearing edge work where I'm from and it isn't something I hear about, even when nerding out with other drummers. Which is wild because of how much of an impact it has on the drums sound and tunability (or so I've gathered from my research).
Have you come across any methods to true up a slightly out of round metal drum? I scored an Acrolite for $35 at a pawn shop! Maybe it was a bargain because of this very mild warp but I've talked to the shops employees and they don't seem like they would discern this issue, let alone that they had an Acrolite on their hands. Anyways I have an idea of how to go about it but I'm interested in what you may advise.
Thanks!
I would use care when bending an Acrolite shell back into shape. Aluminum isn't as malleable as brass, but you can do it (and overdo it, so be careful!). Is the concern a 'flat' in one part of one of the edges? Or has it been dropped on a lug, and the shell pushed in at that point? My recommendation for how to address it is different, depending on what the damage is. ????
Great video. I’m an owner of a set with very sharp 45 edges and want to improve tunability and mellow tones. Question: if I wanted to slightly increase bearing edge contact with the drum head, would sanding the edges be okay or too risky? If anyone can provide some guidance here it would be greatly appreciated.
You can mellow the apex with sanding, yes, but be very careful to do so consistently, so you don't wind up with high and low points along the circumference of the edge.
Why does more surface contact (and therefore energy transfer) between the drumhead and bearing edge create an attenuated high-frequency response, while a higher energy transfer to the drum shell results in an attenuated low-frequency response?
Great question! From a purely physical perspective muffling works, because it absorbs energy from the drumhead, that is, energy in the drum head is transferred into the gel, tape, ring, wallet, etc., removing it from the head, absorbing FIRST the high frequencies and then, depending on the amount of muffling, the hi-mids, the mids, working on down.... Rounded edges, provide greater surface contact with the heads, so they have greater physical area to absorb energy from the heads. Round edges won't absorb energy like overt muffling will, but the greater contact does transfer greater energy from the head to the shell (compared to a share edge that provides little surface area contact).
As for the latter part of your question, greater energy transfer into the shel will increase the likelihood of the shell beginning to resonate (vibrate) a bit of its own, which is an entirely different pattern of vibration than that of the heads. This cross vibration, 360 degrees around a cylinder, basically, disrupts the vertical energy of the heads and lessens the pronounced fundamental tone/note of the drum. As a result any harmonics present will be a larger percentage of the overall drum sound compared to a shell that isn't vibrating much on its own. Therefore, a more massive drum shell (with literally greater mass) is harder to excite into vibration, and therefore retains more of its fundamental.
It is entirely possible to have a massive (literally) shell with rounded edges, but is so great in its mass that it still doesn't vibrate much. This drum would have an attenuated high end (because the shell is still absorbing energy from the head due to the rounded edges), but with a shell mass great enough that it doesn't vibrate much it will still have a strong fundamental. It is also possible that a thin/lightweight/low mass shell should have a sharp edge, but it so lightweight that the shell is still excited into vibration easily, absorbing and disrupting the heads vibration producing a short, punctuated sound that is somewhat bright (not much fundamental).
This latter is the state of most inexpensive drum lines with shells made almost entirely of poplar. The fact that they are inexpensive doesn't make them short and punchy -- it's the lightweight and comparatively soft wood that is responsible for that (lightweight and soft compared to maple or birch or other more traditional tone woods). Some of these inexpensive drums can be worked to become much better instruments (truing edges, finishing/sealing interior, gluing the wrap (which is usually taped on such drums), etc.). There are also some very nice custom drums that are largely poplar (INDe's Studio Mod line are great drums that use poplar as the core of the shells with harder woods on the interior and exterior. Nice drums, with a bit more controlled sound, punchy and detailed, but contained and versatile for recording).
I hope I explained that well enough to make sense. Thanks for the question!
@@drumdotpizza Yes that all makes sense! Definitely going to prioritize more massive drums from now on.
What is your take on the Guru Drums bearing edge?
I've never used it, and I'm not quite sure what I think. It makes a great deal of contact with the rounded collar of the head, so I would tend toward 'rounded' category of bearing edge with all of its attributes, EXCEPT there is a space between the rounded portion and the apex. I would think this break might very well create an inert portion of the head just beyond the active diameter, which might mean characteristics more like edges in the 'sharp' category.
I saw a video on their new edge a couple of years back (are they still around? Just looked, and can't find an active website (though may just be my broker acting up?)). The guy tapped the head of a tom, and it appeared to have great sustain, but I'm pretty sure I'm hearing the camera's built in compression, which would create that same effect with any other tom (sounds like camera audio used for that video). If that's the case, then his tap test is really for nothing. Also would really like to hear it against an 'all-other-things-being-equal' drum fro comparison.
So my answer is, "it's compelling, but I would like to see more."
Assuming it works exactly as he describes I would categorize it as a sharp edge, and would expect a single cut (outside to inside) edge to produce similar results is the diameter is slightly undersized. Basically, any portion of the edge that stretches beyond the shell (into the collar) is effectively inert. The portion that matter is that which makes contact with the shell. It's that little inert 'dip' in the Guru bearing edge that is a magic of that design, assuming it performs as claimed.
I love seeing people thinking outside the box and coming up with new ideas. Not everything has been tried, believe it or not, and there is much more to be discovered and implemented. I hope Guru is still around!!
Thanks so much for the question!
@@drumdotpizza thanks for your reply. Guru it's sadly no more. The founder/owner had to retire due to health problems. They made some gorgeous drums...
I have made a "test drum" rig with a 10" shell with the Guru edge. In my completely unscientific estimation, I would say that it works as advertised. My test rig is basically like a roto tom with no shell, just a bearing edge, made out of wood. Side by side with a 10" roto tom, it definitely has longer sustain. I also think it has a stronger fundamental tone and fewer/quieter overtones.
I am also a big fan of Peavey Radial Pro drums. They also tend to have a great deal of sustain, though probably not for the reason that they advertised. They have super sharp bearing edges and the additional mass of the "radial bridge" at the top and bottom of the drum.
I love that you, and a few others on RUclips, are talking about the actual physics of drums, rather than the myth and marketing about what characteristics contribute to how a drum sounds. I look forward to more of this topic.
Surely hardware will effect the overall mass of a drum shell? Some drums are incredibly heavy due to the metal work.
How much does this effect the sound/Tone of a drum?
Hardware absolutely affects the mass of the shell! And yes, some really heavy drums are so as a result of the hardware (and some of these companies brag about the thinness of their shells... so odd!).
Mass, whether in the wood or the hardware will affect the drum's performance. Have you watched the first part of this series? All about the effect of mass on a drum: ruclips.net/video/sKDRDRAphy8/видео.html
Thanks for your comment!!!
Hey Joel! I never really thought about where the apex sits on the head until I saw the video that Kirsch Drums posted here on RUclips. Maybe you have seen it.
Almost 10 years ago Evans startet their 360 system with much steeper collars to solve these kind of problems. Nevertheless I find Remo heads much more lively and resonant than Evans but that may be due to the material that is being used. One question I had since the last Video which popped back into my head after seeing this Video: Does a thin shell really shorten the sustain of a drum? If I have thin shell and a thick shell with the same bearing edge, wouldn't the force transferd to shell be the same? For example if I punch a thin and a thick Wall with the same amount of force, the thin wall would break while the thick wall wouldn't because of how much energy each wall can absorb. The energy that I'm transfering into the walls however should be equal. So just because my thin shell gets excited and my thick shell doesn't, they should receive the same amount of energy from the head. Then again, I'm no physics expert but I just can't see it in my head. Unless the vibration of the shell goes back into the head and causes cancelation? Please help! :D
What your saying, if I understand it correctly, is spot on: the transfer of energy, all things being equal except the thickness/mass of the shell, is going to be the same. The question is how does the shell respond to that amount of transferred energy? It is basic physics that fixed energy will excite more reaction in lower mass, all other things being equal, so the lower mass shell will vibrate more in response. The shell with greater mass, however, will react less to the transferred energy. Is this enough to excite the denser shell into practical resonance? It won't be as much as with a lower mass shell, but it could still have an impact.
The greater the vibration of the shell, however, the shorter the sustain of the drum. This is just a result of the energy being bled off the head(s) into the shell, which removes that energy from the heads (sounds like I'm repeating myself, but literally, with less energy in the heads they simply won't vibrate (sustain) as long). So yes, a lower mass shell, again all other things being equal, will vibrate more, and that shell vibration disrupts the purer behavior of well tuned heads, attenuating the fundamental tone/pitch of the drum, creating a shorter and more harmonic sound.
Does that make sense? I'm happy to continue thinking of other ways to explain it if not, no worries. Please let me know! And thanks for reaching out!!
@@drumdotpizza Your explanation is great! I just realized that I have misunderstood one of your points and made it worse by phrasing my question totally wrong! What I intended to ask was "Does the AMOUNT of bleed really differentiate in thinner and heavier shells (let's define thick as heavy and thin as light) and is therefore the reason for a difference in sustain." In this and your last video you were saying things like ".. it robs the energy from the drumhead as it starts to vibrate." which I incorrectly interpreted as an argument that the amount transferd is different. But you were talking about about wave cancelation all along. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I rushed to false conclusions!
But here is a another thought you can help me with: A thicker shell reflect the soundwaves inside the sound chamber better/longer, since they can't penetrate the aswell like in a thinner shell. What characteristics does that enhance? I heard people saying it makes for better projection and more volume (Ford drums compared it to a canon, but there we have an opening). But I never understood the correlation completely. Shouldn't it also interfere with resonance and sustain if more soundwaves bounce back to the drumhead?
@@ckdrums3408 You're getting into some serious physics here with the interaction of sound bouncing around inside a cylinder and interacting with the drum heads! (And you have brought up something with your new question that I frankly haven't spent much time thinking directly about, but I believe I can venture a somewhat educated guess :)
Yes, greater mass will contain more frequencies for longer, but there isn't much mass in a drumhead, even 2-ply heads (less mass in a head than even a thin shell), so essentially, except for high frequencies, and perhaps some hi-mids (not sure exactly where the line would be) it's all gonna leave the drum by way of the two 'openings' at each end anyway, so I don't see a thicker shell making much difference in that respect.
I will say, however, that the hardness of the interior finish greatly affects the higher frequency portion of the sound. High frequencies are stopped by even low mass, so they will stay inside the drum longer if it's got two heads. Inexpensive drums usually don't have a finish on the inside -- it's bare wood. Without some kind of seal on that wood (tung oil, polyurethane, etc) even fairly hard wood will suck up high frequencies fast. By sealing the wood the highs hang around a bit longer, providing a clearer, more articulate sound. Many a cheap drum set can be improved significantly by just sealing the interior!
@@drumdotpizza Your videos certainly spark new trains of thoughts in me which is highly appreciated. When my love for the technical aspects of drums emerged around 8 years ago, I always tried to amount as much knowledge as I could by watching all the videos from different drum makers like Ford, Kirsch, Guru etc. but the topics always seemed to be narrowed down alot and biased on their own concept. Having a professional drummer of many years talking independently about experiences and debunking (or demoneking) marketing hypes with 30 minute videos is pure gold for me. I would love to throw some of the concepts and ideas that I gatherd from reaching out to different drum makers over the years at you and hear what you think about them. Your time is problably very limited, but if you ever have the time and desire to make a podcast for your channel with this kind of theme... let me know! Until then, can't wait for your next video! See you there!
Brother, which drums nowadays have these thick heavy shells and nice sharp bearing edges?? Please recommend. Thnxx brother ❤
I am honestly not up to date with all the current drum designs (I'm an old fart who loves his vintage Ludwig and Tama drums!). That would be a great question for the folks at Drum Center of Portsmouth, however. Ask for Tony. Those guys know the products they sell and can point you to the products that meet your design requirements. I'm more a vintage drum guy, I'm sorry.
I do hope that helps. Seriously, reach out to them, email or phone. Tell them the type of characteristics you're looking for, and they'll let you know what is available to match.
Thanks for reaching out!!
Edge consistency is more important by far than the edge type. If the edge isn't level, then the drum will never be in tune.
Same is true for the drum shell itself. If the drum is out-of-round then it will be difficult if not impossible to tune.
Great video - really thoroughly enjoyed it along with your previous one! Here's the part that interested me the most - heavy shell drum with round edges = a dull sounding drum. I like to use 2 ply coated heads (usually Coated Emperors) as I just really like the fatness you get from them. But I am aware that they reduce sustain and high frequencies. So my question is: in your experience, does heavy shell drum with a 2 ply coated head = a dull sounding drum?
Does a heavy shell drum with a 2 ply coated head = a dull sounding drum? Answer: it depends. On sharp edges, no. Dull edges? Definitely more so. Keep in mind, too, that my comment about the dull sounding combination (heavy shell, round edges) was taking into account some distance between the mics (or listener) as well. High frequencies are literally dispersed and absorbed by the viscosity of air, so several feet away the life that may exist up close tends to be severely mellowed, particularly if that 'life' (HF content) was minimized to begin with by round edges, muffling, etc.
Miked up close, however, it is easy to retain the HF response.... room mics will not hear it that way, however. Perhaps DISTANCE should be another topic for another video? Never thought about that as a worthy topic individually, but maybe it'd be useful, particularly for the people who fancy using as few mics as possible to capture drums.
For many years I used coated Emperors on my heavy late 70s Ludwig kit with fantastic results (studio work, miked close). The edges are 30-degrees on those drums, but they've been finished to a fairly sharp apex (by my friend Jon Zoog at Dallas Drum, not by Ludwig). The sharpness of the edges allows for plenty of HF content, though even single ply heads and sharp edges will still produce a darker tone when auditioned across a room if the shell is really dense/heavy.
More recently I have really been digging Aquarian single ply texture coated heads (I need to do a review of them), because their film is stiffer than Remo or Evans, and the tonality is something of a balance between a coated Ambassador and a coated Emperor. They have more authority and are a bit more controlled in a 'not dull' way, if that makes any sense (I am extremely sensitive to muffling and prefer none for my general playing style (though you wouldn't know that based on recent uploads to this channel... but I have another coming shortly that will be more typical of my tuning preferences). So I've been using the single ply Aquarian TC heads lately, and they are very lively, yet refined as well.
Got a bit OT there, but hopefully that helps answer your question! Thanks so much for your kind words and for being here!
@@drumdotpizza Great answer! Thanks so much for taking your time to write back. I also like minimal dampening on toms when possible. Feel like often when there's a lot of dampening, the toms ultimately end up getting buried in the mix. And that's the last thing I want as I love the toms - probably my favourite part of the kit!
Had a Ludwig Classic ..beautiful kit in natural maple. 45 degree single cut edges. Drums were terrible to get in tune and they favored higher tuning cause you couldn't lower the tension enough to get them to a lower tuning.
Were those the 80s era that had more lugs on the toms? 12" and 13" toms with eight lugs per side, 14" and larger with 10 lugs per side, etc. I find those drums hard to tune, and really don't have the low range of tuning that normal lug arrangements do. It's been awhile since I have played one of those kits. I wonder if the edges of that time also hit the collar of the heads? I never thought to look when I ran across one of those.
I recently modified a 12x11 mid-80s 8-lug tom to a 12x8 6-lug tom for a friend of mine (in fact, that's the tom in the video on shell's inherent pitch!). I didn't mess with the edges, though, now that I think about it. It tuned up great when I got it back together, so maybe those edges are fine.
I'm a Ludwig fan, but there are definitely some sketchy QC years there in the late 70s/early 80s. I've seen all kinds of odd things from them in that era. Still a big fan though, and love all my Ludwigs.
Thanks for sharing!!
@drumdotpizza no..I bought it in 2015. Stunning kit but it was a pain to work with. 8, 10 12,15ft 16ft 22bd. Went back to Tama.
@@Camcodrummer Love Tama too! My other fav...
You almost lost me when the definition was read at the beginning. But I still continued watching.
Love this series. My findings are… Yes, thicker shells with sharp edges give much more power and projection and a higher pitch but fatter note at the same tension. Thinner shells give more pitch bend less projection and power but are generally warmer sounding. Thin great for recording. Thick great for live work, outside work where power is needed! 👍
Pretty cool video. Let me try to impart my observations and experiences, in other words, my "2 cents worth" LOL As for my background, 60 years of playing time, 10 years of drum building & restoring. A pedigree of automotive + race car building... engineering, machining, welding and fabricating etc. It is my humble opinion, the drum shell has very little if any musical properties what so ever, other than beating on it with some form of battering implement. "insert club of destruction of your choice" LOL My opinion... drum shells are ply's of wood, glued together, more over, glue has no musical properties at all. Then, we bolt a bunch of lugs and other hardware onto the shell and to further discredit all the shell, "residence" madness, a wrap is applied and in many cases, larger drums require multiple pieces to encompass the entire shell. So, my theory is as follows . (1) The thickest shell possible within reason. This make the shell more likely to stay concentric through time and any given conditions and physical stresses. i.e. Humidity and "rim tension" (2) The bearing edge. I prefer a double 45 degree. This seems to produce the most tones possible. A person can then remove any of the unwanted tones. This can be accomplished in so many ways. Here are some but not all. Rim, stamped vs die cast, head type, tone rings, foam rings, moon gel, The ubiquitous Duct Tape. etc etc. OMG!!! Lets not forget about good ole "tuning." LOL
So in closing... You can remove tones and notes you do have... You cant extract tones and note that are physically unobtainable. What say you?
Thanks again for posting your experience and perspective.
I agree with you almost entirely!! ALMOST, because I do find that the material used in the shell does, in fact, affect the sound, though if you watch my video on tone woods you'll see that I do agree it is secondary to many other factors.
Lately I have been big time digging my 5x14 "Vistalite" snare (made with an amber RCI Starlite shell.... MUCH nicer edges than any original vistalite I have played)... it is a mellower, more controlled sound than any of my wooden snares. With no muffling it has just the right amount of musical harmonics/overtones (10mil single ply coated head). I'm just LOVING that drum right now, and the viscosity of the shell material does make it behave quite differently. Then metal, of course, But yes, most woods are easy to confuse, sonically. In my tone woods video I did a comparison of very soft (poplar) shell and relatively hard (sugar maple) shell with identical edges cut by a buddy of mine. They are, in practice, interchangeable with a quality recording engineer/mixer, but the differences are noticeable (and VERY noticeable to the player (me) in the feel of each drum while playing).
Thanks so much for your input! I believe we are cut from the same cloth! ;)
So.... is a drum shell essentially a type of muffler?
Well... it certainly can be. The edges will affect harmonic content of the sound (so yes, in that respect), but also the nature of the shell's material itself will definitely affect the tone/harmonic of the sound too (acrylic vs. wood. vs. metal vs. fiberglass...). Some shell's produce naturally greater harmonic content than others.
Yeah. I’m totally going to round over my tom heads.
What kind of bearing edge would be on 1969 Ludwig’s?
I had some intermediate drums circa 2004. The edges were very narrow and the drums just sounded bright and attacky, not much body. I hate that. My 12" tom sounded like other kits 10". tom.
You could round those edges a bit and mellow the brightness, but if you want more body you'll need heavier shells (or some EQ on the other side of a microphone).
So WHY do we want the shell to absorb the energy?
Some manufacturers may prefer a shorter sustain and higher harmonic content in their drums' sound. Transferring energy into the shell (by way of rounder edges the give greater surface contact between head and shell) is a way to achieve these objectives.
Hi quality link to the slo mo drum video: ruclips.net/video/ojiPW0FAiik/видео.html
Thank you so much! I couldn't find that when I was putting this together, so I'll swap that in. Very helpful!!!
@@drumdotpizza Glad to help. Really enjoying your videos. I have a 1979/1980'ish Ludwig modular set with the Ludwig die cast hoops on the toms (10, 13,14,15) and virgin 22" kick.
What about a 90 degree?
You mean no separate 'edge' formed into the shell?
I had to re-cut (table saw) a new edge... it's 90 right now, Ive tested it. It's thuddy but good, not over toning. The Pearl factory was 45. Have you tried this?
So you’re saying time travel is possible?
I see your gustification to a 45 45 because you’d have to tighten high to mold head to shell
Bongo was known to overtighten head and sit on it to leaving a bowling ball on it to mold the head to the shell
What a lot of drum tech do. High EVEN tension then a heat gun evenly to mold it to the shell. You get nice low pitch
How DARE YOU...... kidding. I think that tuing range plays into the equation a bunch as does the size of the drum diam. I built a 10" tom that just sings. Very thin 4 ply Keller from PD. But I have an old Imperial star with Mahogany shell that is thicker and it too just sings. Bigger drums may start to vibrate and cancel head vibration more easily. Depends on the pitch range. Don't even get me started on shell pitch stamping. Unless it is a tabla, It is of less than No concern. Drumset toms are simply implied pitches with implied melodic uses. And if it were pitch specific, you would want to be able to dampen sustain like a vibraphone damper or you would have sustained notes when not appropriate.
Love your stuff ❤️
AND.... I'm guessing that thin, 4-ply Keller tom shell is maple? The Imperialstar shell is not only thicker, but the Lauan (Philippine Mahogany) it is made of is considerably softer, and the I guarantee there are more vertically oriented plies in that Imperialstar than the Keller (almost certainly the interior ply is vertically oriented.. almost all Imperialstars I've owned have been). Both have a very low inherent pitch (when you do the thump test on the shel).. the Keller, because the veneers are so thin they wood fibers don't resist the bending like thicker plies do, so the pitch isn't raised as much under the tension, and the Tama, because of greater mass (9 plies) and lots of vertically oriented veneers.
It's all so complex and interesting it just makes one's head spin, no??
I'm actually about to tackle tone woods in the next installment in this series. I'll try to keep it under an hour.... wish me luck!!! :)
I mean WHY do we want the shell to vibrate at all?
If the shell is light enough to vibrate, then allowing it to do so (through rounder edges and isolation mounts) will dampen the fundamental, making the harmonic content a higher percentage of the sound. This also shortens decay/sustain, but again, if that is the sound you want, then thinner, vibrating shells are a way to that end.
If the shells are too dense then all the surface contact in the world between head and shell won't actually make the shell vibrate much.
19:48 well, actually Drums should be smaller in Diameter so the bearing edge is never in contact with the collar, only with the plank surface of the head. I also dont understand the difference between 45 , 30, 60 degree cuts. The only contact between the head and the drum is the tip of the bearing edge which can be formed from sharp to fully round. How does a sharp 60 degree Cut Sound different from a sharp 45 cut. All thats touching the head is the tip of the bearing edge?
Because it focuses the sound waves throughout the shell.
There is SO much nitpicking with Drumz these days!
If you put a calftone or similar head on a drum with a sharp bearing edge and put a single ply clear diplomat style on a rounded edge the resulting sounds will skew all preconceive notions of bearing edge tone IMHO
Well said! All these features of drums do impact sound, but ultimately it'll all be affected by the heads, tuning, muffling (not to mention the actual playing!).
I like to break all the hype down to its simplest form, so people don't get too freaked out about one attribute or another... it's not worth freaking out. Well built drums sound great... pick you head and tuning and roll!!
attenuate = lessen the effect of...since it's not a word people commonly use.
This is weird - I always thought the thinner shells had lower frequency content and more resonance than thicker shells.
Well, technically that depends on what you mean by 'resonance.' If you mean the shell vibrates longer when thumped (with no hardware on it), then yes, modern, thin, rigid shells (that have higher glue-to-wood ratio than older, thicker ply shells) do, indeed, vibrate longer than thicker shells.
Thinner veneers' used in modern shells also have less resistance to strain (being forced into a curve against the grain) resulting in a lower pitch compared to the thicker veneers whose greater resistance so such strain results in higher pitch.
So modern, think shells generally have lower pitch (when thumped) and vibrate longer (when thumped). Thicker vintage shells (1980s) generally have higher pitches and don't vibrate as long.
The effect of all this on the tone of the assembled and tuned drum, however, is something of an inverse to the raw shell. Modern shells, due to their ability to vibrate easily do so when the drum is played which actually dampens the fundamental tone giving a higher harmonic content (so the drum sounds 'brighter' than a thick drum). The thicker shell drum, whose shell doesn't vibrate so easily will resist vibrating a bit more when played yielding a stronger fundamental pitch (boom!) with the same amount of overtones, though given the strength of the fundamental tone the overtones are a smaller percentage of the overall sound, so the tone is mellower overall (though louder from a purely amplitude perspective).
You're right... it's weird! ;)
If, however, you mean
I think you are describing why I didn’t like those Yamaha Maple Absolute shells when compared to my Recording Customs. I thought they were going to have a “lower” pitch and more sustain and instead it felt more like tin cans. It was very confusing and went against all the marketing. They were “pretty” but so much weaker and didn’t pack the wallop of the RC and early 80s Ludwigs I had.