Seriously dude? My super awesome vintage 808 was just about to go on Reverb for $600 so I can buy my cat dancing lessons. You just ruined it for me. And for Tinkerbell.
in reality anyone who has had one of these for a year or more probably has the best one for them because they have learned where to put the dials to sound good for them, and they have learned to play to the strengths of that particular pedal, because it is all they have played through!
I have been screaming at videos about this for years, even the stupid notion of comparing pedals by putting them at 12o’clock. It’s all randomness because of tolerance variability not to mention confirmation bias. I loved this video for busting that myth wide open at last. It makes the so called experts look like novices. Well done Brian.
@@allankvist6741 you heard a clear difference because he said one was a TS9 and the other was an 808. It's the same pedals he used throughout the entire video but you only heard a difference when he told you there was one.
Well, it’s obviously the tone metal in the casing that makes the difference. Also, the vintage 808s used a different green lacquer, which vibrates at a smoother resonant frequency. That’s why they’re worth more.
Not a true comparison unless both are tested in different hemispheres in a vaccum chamber during a full lunar eclipse.That's when the magic happens and the different circuitry really stands out.
A barrel-aged TS808 will always exhibit hints of vanilla in the nose, while a fresh TS9 is fruitier, reminiscent of black currant. In reality, though, the TS9 only outputs about .02 amperes of black currant.
Mine has to be from a JHS video about the sound of new pedals vs what they “used to sound like”. He said something like, “ it’s time we as a society admit that we can’t remember what we had for breakfast last Tuesday much less what a pedal sounded like 30 years ago.” 😂
Thank you so much for making this video. I've NEVER been able to tell THAT much of a difference in the TS808, TS9 and Maxon versions. I mean I could always hear just a tiny bit of difference when put into a super clean uncompressed amp, but never much. Even different TS9s sounded different to me though, so I thought i was just crazy. All my 'music friends' told me I was tone def. So the fact that this video exists, makes me feel much better. Also, I love your pedals man. I have 3 so far :)
I had a guitarist who left my band because I used cheaper alternatives. He took the drummer with him too. still don't know what happened to them after that.
I'm sticking with the switch. You can clearly hear the smaller switch on the 808. The TS9 has a bigger sound as a result, but some would argue that it's not as focused.
I once did a blind test with 3 pedals, an original TS808, a reissue TS9 and a cheap TS7. There are differences if you hear them side by side but any of them would do the job. I recently bought 2 "identical" new MXR distortions for 2 boards and tried to match them which was a hard job. One has more gain but less top end than the other and it's impossible to not hear the differences when you put them side by side.
Lol blow me... that’s why you have knobs on amp and pedal to increase or decrease thud or whatever you’re dreaming about. In either pedal. Turn you’re knobs you knob.
I discovered when I was making a home built guitar just how much variation there is in pots. Some pots read as high as 550k and some as low as 450k. It never occurred to me at the time that this would be the same with pedals but now that you point it out, it all makes sense. Thank you for busting the myth.
This happened when alps and many other high quality potentiometer manufacturers had to shut down. People cared more about low price, not tight tolerances. Tolerances in pots has actually got worse since then. Now, it is stupid to even think about buying alps pots. They cost more than a power transformer now... The reason is actually out of their control though. Carbon film as the variable resistor is how it is done, but this process is crude and unreliable. Tolerances are determined after the fact, and thus, the tighter the tolerance, the lower the yield, the higher the price, and people are not willing to pay a higher price.
At one point I owned an 808, a TS 9, and a TS 10 and could detect no major discernible differences between them. I just thought I had lousy ears. Thanks Brian!
Man, it's difficult to even tell my TS9 from my SD-1 once I'm going through a gain-y amp with some effects in the loop, and those are *entirely different pedals*. I've always thought anyone who claims to hear a systematic difference between the various tubescreamer models was full of it. Thanks for the vid.
2022 - This channel is where I go if I want a true, no BS, expert opinion and/or comparison about an amp, pedal or anything electronic having to do with guitars. There are so many myths out there that real facts have are starting to become dinosaurs. Great video!
I loved when you set down your coffee (beverage). Possibly the most important piece of gear in that room. I'm happy with my Joyo Vintage OD. It does that green pedal thing for me. A tool, nothing more.
I love the fact that Brian invests some of his valuable time trying to educate us in pedal electronics. I am personal testament to the fact that my tonal preferences change over time and I may like the tubescreamer for a while, then move no to explore another drive pedal (currently OCD). I'm pretty sure it has less to do with the actual electronics and more to do with my varying tonal preferences over time. That said, I always enjoy Brian's video's.The clarity he brings to pedal formats helps me explore their differences and enjoy the next step in my tonal journey.
Mind blown. So each pedal in each amp is going to be the differences. Amazing. This brings up more interesting conversation about how our brains remember tones/feelings about what we play and when and how we play it. This would be a great blog topic for Jason.
Some pedal manufacturers (and Wampler is most likely one of these) cherry-pick parts so that their tolerances sort of cancel each other out, making the product more consistent while also not throwing away components. Both the 468k and 514k pots are within tolerance, but it's true, they're not going to behave exactly the same. Cherry-picking the variance on the next part in the circuit can go a long way to cancel that out. The parts are slightly different in each circuit, but because they are matched to each other, the end result is quite similar.
I’m a pedal collectin’ kinda Guy, I already have a 35th anniversary MIJ ts808 but I know I’m gonna have to grab one of them old school 81’ editions for a couple grand to get “that” sound I hear on the radio all day. This channel is one of my favorite to watch on RUclips when it comes to the real deal of what’s what. Keep it up Mr.Wampler
Brian, I have to admit that I didn't know the difference between the two til I watched this video. I found a used and abused TS9 at a Salvation Army thrift store a couple of years ago (I paid $8 for a box of pedals and TS9 was one of them- Lucky me!) All I had to do was wipe the penis artwork off of the box and replace the old knobs for new ones and its been great.
The funny thing is, talking about the gain knob’s effect on the TS9/808 is like eating a banana without peeling it. The best way to use these pedals is gain low and the volume boosted in front of a CRANKED amp. Most comments on forums are bedroom levels through an SM57 which can only hear a fraction of the freqs. When people test, I suggest cranking and using 3 mics. A bass mic, an sm57 style for mids and a condenser good for highs to capture the air. Then you get the full picture re freqs. Great vid by the way. Keep em coming.
Yeah well, I don't really like circle of tone after the clickbate video about moeer preamps being as good as kemper etc...he's kind of a weirdo. I remember him being the tock tock guy always edgy etc on forums. There isn't a correct way to use something, it's about what is usefull to a guitarist I guess and I always love watching videos and picking things up. The tube screamer is as much a normal overdrive as it is a hi gain boost, in fact it started primarly as a "distortion pedal" of the era if you think about it...SRV certainly didn't use it as a hi gain boost. Peavey solid states of old can be killer amps though. I've got some hi endish stuff (brunetti soldano mesa amps, peavey tube and other stuff) and I am still amazed on what they accomplished with a humble peavey bandit. And that amp certainly doesn't need a boost.
Gain pot is just one part though. Imagine how different amps sound from eachother. We should be A/Bing different models much less and A/Bing some of the same much more.
MAD RESPECT!!! More people need to be like you when shooting out stuff and ABing them. Don’t tell or show what is what. Guitar nerds like me hear with their eyes and don’t go after the actual best sound. They like what they want, stubborn and they rarely change their mind. I used to be the same way.
The TS-808 is more transparent than the TS-9 in my opinion. It has more "grit" while the TS-9 has more "saturation". Also the Boss Big Muff is more transparent than the TS-808. They all, however, are less transparent than my trusty Red Panda Particle. When Stevie Ray Jimi used that on "My Big Green Tractor" I realized that the quest for true guitar tone would not be completed by one pedal vs another, but by practicing Lydian b7 b9 scales in 5/8 at 200.2b pm. Plug your acoustic into a Line 6 Spider like a REAL man (making sure to have 8 Big Sky's going before it) and have a Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive™ BEFORE the reverbs though. Tone is in the flangers. the phalanges? sorry for the philosophy goodnight
Great video! Those pots (variable resistors) had a large difference in ohms! So, every single pedal will sound technically different from each other, then we have the same situation going on inside the guitar pits, and then the amp pots! ;)
This is useful. I'm going to buy a TS. I posted a thread on TGP asking for recommendations. Actually the majority of comments were along these lines, i.e., "don't buy into all the crap, just get a TS9 or a TS mini". There were a lot of recommendations for TS type pedals from other companies, but not many people saying you have to have a vintage 808 or anything.
I play a lot of fast, palm muted staccato note metal. Keeping the palm mutes fluid with just enough attack to stay "heavy" is better suited for the 808. If you want palm mutes that cut to the bone but feel stiffer get the ts-9. If you don't even play metal get the 808.
One chip in TS9 does suck without a doubt, a 7555 digits on it. Put in a socket and install any of the other chips and R104 with a 2.2k ohm R114 with 100 ohm and R115 with 10k ohm. Electronic guys never can speak sense but they never shut up. Pot resistance was miniscule in the video. I modded mine 50 times it seems with different things, foil burned off jumper wires everywhere, all the websites are done by lunatics who cannot explain anything... the above was all I needed. here is a photo of options: media.stinkfoot.se/2010/11/TSmod.jpg
My friend has a TS9 he bought new in the 80's. I have a reissue TS808 I bought new about two years ago. I compared them side by side - same amp, guitar, settings, etc. - and they sound almost identical. That tells me one of two things. Either I'm tone deaf or the pedals are extremely similar. And Ibanez did a great job of making something new sound vintage. Great video!
Ibanez makes no money off used pedals. So its in there interest to make new ones that sound exactly like the old ones. How do they do this? They simply make the same circuit....
He's not saying TubeScreamers are no good buy Wampler's version instead. He's saying is there a difference between them .. no not really. Given that he actually has designed and built well respected pedals for years, I'd say he is certainly credible.
there's a difference and i was able to ID them before the reveal. Is it much of a difference? depends on how picky you are. frankly i prefer just the amp's drive over a pedal
Another clinical method to compare these pedals is to record a dry repeated control performance and then re-amp it thru the pedals for a tonal comparison.
There has got to be more of these things out there. Would love to see more similar circuits A/B like this. Fun to see which ones I can and can't hear the difference between.
Excellent video! Thanks for explaining what shapes the tone of an OD pedal. I can see that two of the same pedals would probably not sound exactly the same. :)
My Ts9 has a cleaner sound because I’ve been brainwashed to believe so.
5 лет назад
Thanks for these kind of videos Bryan. I always believed the hype about the TS808 and TS9 and I must say after you demonstrated I can't tell the difference. It started making sense when you explained the differences in tolerance of components and the effect it has on the overall sound. Thanks again. Both are awesome pedals in my books.
Late to the party but the actual difference in the 2 circuits is 2 resistors and 1 cap. I remember the cap is 47nf in one and 4.7nf in the other. Couldn't quote what from the top of my head. Loved the video, been screaming this into the void forever. Instant sub
The true secret to maximizing the overall tone of any TS9/808 is running a 9v battery in conjunction with a power supply cable, it truly makes ever bit of difference. One more thing, use Energizer because that Rabbit gives it more kick 👍🏽
Thank you Brian!!! I have 9 Tube Screamer-type pedals (Ibanez, DIY and others) and they all sound almost Identical. Maybe some very small differences. Some because of tolerances but most of the differences I hear are in my head ;-)
well I've made te 808 mod on a ts9 and the change is more on the resistors values which are changing. The sound of the chipset is a legend...blind tests are really helping. Our brain hears just what we expect! thanks!
Hoo-boy. Maybe the only thing worse than self-professed "golden eared audiophiles" are "golden eared guitar gearheads". :D Brian, get ready - this could end up as bad as the tone-wood ragewar. lol I get it though. It can be so crushing and disillusioning when factual stuff like science and engineering calls into question long-held, often beloved pre-conceptions. There's gotta be a psychological term for this... cheers man!
@@jeffbrown-hill7739 In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by the person. I think Richard got it right.
Here's what I do when buying a pedal: I plug it into my rig (yes, I take my rig to the store - they don't mind), then I see how it sounds. If it sounds the way I want it to sound, for a price I want to pay, I buy it. That simple. I don't give a damn if it's labeled TS Mini, TS 9, TS 808, Klon, or any other such thing. It takes very little time or effort to see the reality of it all: Just take two "identical" pedals off the shelf and A/B them. They won't be identical. The same goes for instruments. As such, just test out what the store has and take home the one that best suits your needs. Leave the labels to the posers.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I have a degree in electronics technology, and was aware of tolerance. I just never considered it in the "mystery" of pedals. :)
Usually if you build one yourself the difference between TS9 and TS808 is you solder in 470R + 100k resistors for the TS9 and 100R+10k resistors for the TS-808. What makes a bigger difference is if they are asymetrical clipping or nah (thats a mod).
Nice video, once again. But you know, ones made in the southern hemisphere do sound quite different from the northern hemisphere pedals because of the reversed spin of the electrons caused by the coriolis effect. It's true. I read it on the interwebs.
Im glad someone made this video for todays generation. I learned it from a luthier many years ago. saying that models of pedal have hardly perceivable nuances its the same argument that a tone pot makes a guitar better. 99% of people dont seem to realise that the tone pot is CUTTING your tone, not boosting it! in some circumstances, its just one more thing in the circuit cutting the high frequencies. for the record, i'm not saying you shouldn't have one or that having one makes no difference to your sound, but for some types of music (metal rhythm guitar for instance) its superfluous. most of my guitars have a single volume knob and I achieve as much tonally as anyone else but its all in the ears of the beholder (or whatever word means "to listen to something") :) I guess you *COULD* use military grade components that have a far lower tolerance range, but the cost is prohibitive and wheres the fun in that :)
I laughed out loud at your 3:28 review. Loved it! So many tone freaks are about minutiae shit that is so irrelevant when a full band kicks on top in a live situation. Great job
I could both hear the difference and correctly chose which was which. I've played the TS9 for years and am extremely familiar with the sound (and also an audio engineer). Every time I plug in a TS808 I can hear the difference immediately and I really don't like them for what I do. Having the right drive completely changes the feel of my tone and how I play. Unfortunately, the real truth is that the difference is very small, some people can hear it and others cant (for various reasons), and to those that can it may or may not be important. To those who consider it important, like me, its nearly a deal breaker, so it tends to get overblown as an issue where it really only applies to players with an ear for it. As to the differences between the same models leading to massive price differences, I think thats sillier than the tone/feel difference.
I recently watched the TS-9 vs. Kokko 's "Green" overdrive video and found the differences to be very minor. I bought the Kokko to do some pedal stacking and am pleased with the result. I am pleased with the overall signal to noise even at high gain levels. Great video about a very "over-chewed" subject
Thanks Brian! Maybe someday people will learn to listen with their ears instead of their eyes, or their buddy’s/the internet’s opinions. I had a friend ask me to compare his new made in China Rat to my old ‘86 Rat. He wanted me to give him my opinion on what mods should be done to make it sound like my old pedal. He was frustrated by the differences when all the knobs were set at the same positions on both pedals. Of course, when I set the two by what we were hearing instead, almost all the differences went away. So much for vintage mojo, op-amp magic etc. I think he’ll be fine now. He’s cool with his Chinese pedal. cheers!
I easily picked the first slightly more treble less smooth breakup tone to be the TS9 and the smoother 2nd one was the 808. Every time he switched. I have them both and although the values change on components from pedal to pedal, there does seem to be a consistent audible difference, at least to me. But some cannot discern between Pepsi and Coke so.
I know the schematic of the tubescreamer because I built it. I also studied buffers a lot, and the difference between the TS9 and TS808 is in the output buffer. No night and day difference, but there IS a subtle difference and you can definitely hear it if you know "where" (in the frequencies spectrum) to look for it: the 808 as slightly more top end presence and slightly less bass. I could spot which one was which easily at the blindfold test at beginning of the video. No, nobody will be able to go to a concert and say "oh yes, this is definitely a TS9 I'm hearing, it can't be a TS808". BUT if you know your gear, you might prefer one over the other, mostly depending on how your basic clean tone is set (brighter or darker). No, moving the TS tone pot doesn't really changes the tone in the same way. Yes, accommodating with your amp's presence control might give you the same results. But if you previously set your amp tone controls that way and like the result, why moving them to accommodate for a pedal? Luckily enough the difference is very subtle, so anyone can live with one or the other in his/her pedalboard. But people who had the fortune to try both (with their own gear) and have a preference, are not victims of a psychoacoustic bias! They are really hearing that difference (which anyone can hear in the video with a good pair of headphones/speakers, so thanks Brian) so they are not to ban!
You are talking about less then 2% of a sound difference. And those can not explain the prizes for vintage 808. So actually yes, this is about psychoacoustic bias. People believe something is better because other people told them so (see: Klon, Neve 1073 etc etc)
Michael Kupfer As I build my own pedals, I don't care about prices. I'm only saying that the difference is there, and that it suffices for choosing one over the other. So again no, there is no psychoacoustic bias here.
Dude, he even explained in the video that the tolerance of the parts functions make a bigger difference than the 2 different pedals. If you do hear a difference,you are hearing the tolerance difference and would be hearing the same thing if you compare 5 ts9 or 5 ts808 to each other. It's not the pedal that makes the difference it's the quality of the parts. Both use the same quality of parts so it's going to come down to each specific pedals tolerance across the board.
James Crider, the TS I built has sockets to compare those two output buffer resistors: you would hear that difference too! As soon as I will find a way to record in high quality, I will make a comparison video
I (with the help of some donations) put 3 ts9s in front of a few amps. I could easily see that the pots trimmed at different levels, but this did not stop me from finding the same "sweet spot" on all 3 pedals. The point of all this is that you try before you buy, and go with what YOU like!
Am I the only one who thought the upper mid/treble characteristic was different in the two modes he played? I still think the ts9 has a brighter character.
Thanks for that Brian! The (marginal) tone difference between the two pedals is like moving your right hand just slightly towards the bridge, so you get more of a TS9 sound (or is it more like a TS808?) 😉 Anyway, I sold both my TS9 (mid 80s) and my 808 (original late 70s) and I am still very happy with my Pro Co Rat. Btw: SRV used TS808 in the beginning, then TS9 and TS10 in late 1988...food for thought?
After buying a TS808 to sound like SRV people were like "WTF" when SRV's guitar tech came out and said that Stevie actually used a TS10 for a long time...sorry
Great video. Love the proto board. I like tone in electric guitar playing, but I’m also an EE and also don’t like the hype surrounding this stuff. Some of the comments on your video are as entertaining as the video itself! Cool ! Keep it up.
This kind of knowledge is invaluable to an electronics novice like myself. Again it confirms to me the genuineness of your own products to do what you say they will and not just be disguised with marketing hype. Well done. P.S - my TS9 is darker than my TS808, but they likely changed the pigment. 🤫
He didn't mention one thing: this parts also change its properties during time - pedals sound different with age. I'm not kidding. So, there is a chance that vintage pedals with the same circuit as a new one will sound slightly different.
_More_ results than tolerance differences. Drift can easily halve or double a component's value -- or worse yet, make it behave totally different hot than it does cold. This is a much wider swing than component tolerance allows for.
Tolerance is meant to include the varying of value with temperature. I don't think it takes into account long-term drift. It's hard to say if modern components suffer from long term drift. We don't use ancient carbon comp resistors any more.
Electrolytic capacitors drift quite significantly with age, especially in equipment made 10 to 15 years ago due to "capacitor plague". If they haven't exploded, it's generally safe to assume they're well out of spec by now. Fortunately, the much lower operating voltage of solid state equipment means that the sound will suffer and perhaps the circuit will misbehave, but it is highly unlikely to harm the user. The same can't be said of leaky capacitors meant to suppress high voltage DC in tube circuits.
So if old components have value drift, how do I know what a vintage TS808 sounds like? By now they should all be completely different. If one sounds good, it's just coincidence that the components changed value in a way that produces a nice tone.
Awesome video. I get soooooo tired of people bullshitting to justify spending twice as much for a “higher end” TS. The only real differences you’ll find between Tube Screamers is when you compare a 4-knob and 3-knob unit, for obvious reasons. You have another parameter to control. I use a Super Tube and TS9, and while the Super Tube can easily get the normal TS sound, the TS9 can’t quite do some of the stuff the Super Tube can do. They sound really good together too. Just set each to very different settings from each other and let er rip! I run them simultaneously into an Ibanez Black Noise distortion. I wasn’t expecting a pedal I got for $20 new twenty years ago to knock off my “nicer” distortion pedals, but here we are. It’s a killer sound.
Not that it matters, but when you were doing the A/B, they sounded different to my ears. Not sure which is which - and doesn't matter to me. Do they sound identical to other people's ears?
I'm betting in a mix they sound almost identical, also the difference could be down to different tolerances in the parts used on the breadboard as well.
A friend bought the TS9 for me as a gift. My intention was to try this with my bass guitar… I have to say that it sounded great right out of the box. I saw the “stinkfoot” mod on line to increase bass response. I did that and it made it even better. Not over the top or anything… just slight but much better! At low or high gain, it sounds great with bass. Thanks for the great content Brian 🫡
Cliff Burton's pedal of choice...i went with a bass ts9 just for the sake of low end as i didnt have anyone to mod a ts9 for me...either way, yeah killer sound
Hi there Mr. un named Guitar player, fixer, electronic component fondler etc... I so appreciate you explaining about the tolerance issue (so every pedal will have components of slightly different value which may or may not contribute to THAT actual pedal's sound). I think the way you play guitar, both the pedals sound good. I only feel assertive about this because you are a good player. The way you hold, or actually play guitar had a lot to do with it. And of course so do the amps and pedals. For all I know, the tone you got from both pedals were better because you worked on your amp, and did something to make that sound better. Therefore everything sounded better. A good portion of it is in the hands as well. (but we know that).
He would probably also claim that one would sound better than the other if it had another brand of 9V battery in it, and also which screws that were used to plug the pedal case together.
The general comparisons me and my buddies make is usually a "this sounds shitty" and a "damn that sounds nice." Spending time playing and adjusting settings instead of talking about tone is a really good way to end up with a sound you're really happy with.
All TS's sound like mushy green lumps of midrange. The reason they're so popular is that they correct the Strat's complete lack of mid range and ease some of the shrill treble.
Funny, I used to be into "Hi-Fi", bought the magazines, lusted after the high end stuff...but realised (as luckily i do have a hobbyist background in electronics) that so much of the 'differences" between gear was down to "wish fulfilment" especially when it comes down to things like components. Like being able to hear the differences between different brands of (extremely expensive) speaker wire, etc. etc. Yes,you are absolutely right, a circuit will have it's own sound, and that is down to the actual circuit topology being used. All components have tolerance ranges, and most of the tiny differences between ostensibly identical devices are pretty much down to that. So like amps and especially pedals, no two devices ,even though they came of the production process next to each other, will be identical. However, the circuit topology used in the device will determine how much of a difference component tolerances lends to the device. You can buy a pedal from Amazon (Biyang OD-8 X-Drive) which is an overdrive pedal with a cover on the back where you can swap out the op-amp in the drive circuit for different types (i.e. manufacturer) to get the sound you want. Try it. the only differences you will hear are due to the gain of the op-amp and the way the circuit is implemented in the op-amp. No magic involved... Guitarists are told that "orange drop" caps are great, and cheap disc ceramics are crap. and of course hideously expensive hand made oil and paper caps are the best, "...'cause that's what they used in the 50's. man, it's vintage, so it's better, so take my money!" Sadly, there will always be a lot of snake oil, especially amongst guitarists, where "Vintage: is venerated, and "New" is dismissed.
Uh... you said you have a background in electronics, but you should never use ceramics in audio applications... ever. They are microphonic. That is the one case where it actually does make a difference. Now, orange drop caps are stupid, but you can just use any old film capacitor instead.
this is EXACTLY spot-on! its confirmation bias (i.e. wish fulfillment). We tend to find or focus on the evidence (audio or otherwise) that CONFIRMS our pre-existing notions or worldview... same exact thing with the Chump supporters... if a person has a provincial/ simplistic worldview and hates immigrants and minorities... they dont hear Chump telling an average of 15 provably false lies per day.... Because what he says completely fits into their understanding of how the world is... and indeed those things "could" be true... Just like if you paid vintage price for an 808 you are likely to read comments that highlight the (insignificant) circuit differences and will focus on the comments that confirm your pre-existing notion which rationalizes your paying way too much for a vintage 808. There are many studies on this type of human behavior and the "double blind" test and many other concepts in social science derive from it. You hit it right on Tim Beaton!!!!
There's not a lot of difference, but to my ear, with decent headphones, I can hear a bit more bottom end on the TS808 circuit. I've screwed around with SPICE programs (for nerds), and I can say, objectively, that there is a quantifiable difference, even if slight. Throw in part tolerances, and a lot of that goes up in the air. But more importantly, why does it matter if someone thinks they hear a difference or if someone doesn't? I swear that the 808 sounds a bit creamer, to my ear. And I've done enough research into the circuit to say that's that isn't an unfounded belief. Again, I completely agree that tolerances will probably have a greater effect on a TS styled overdrive then a few resistors, I mean, SRV famously went through tons of them to find the perfect pedal, if that isn't evidence enough. However, that doesn't mean people's anecdotal evidence is wrong either. They might just have better hearing for those special frequencies. I can say that I can't hear a massive difference between a green back and blue back, and jeez do I keep that opinion to myself, because people swear by blue backs. Also, I don't have a lot of experience in person with blue backs, so relying heavily on compressed RUclips videos for information isn't exactly helpful either. To conclude, I do understand the point of the video, and I don't entirely disagree with it, I just believe that people will have there opinions, and just because you can't understand them, doesn't mean they are wrong. Keep up the good work Wampler!
It matters because people spend money based on what they believe is a design difference when it's a random result of the flawed manufacturing process that does not create all products alike. Then they spend time being wrong on the internet. I'm not paying my ISP for people to be wrong on my internet, goddammit! And creamy isn't a word that is applicable to sound. You're thinking cheddar.
Nice comparison. The difference is definitely subtle with the guitar amp/combo you're using. To dispel more mythology it would be neat to try your A/B tests with a Marshall and a Fender to test the response to varying input stages. And again with maybe a Les Paul and a Strat to see the difference with pickup loading.... and I bet the results will be similar.
Seriously dude? My super awesome vintage 808 was just about to go on Reverb for $600 so I can buy my cat dancing lessons. You just ruined it for me. And for Tinkerbell.
So fuckin edgy and hardcore bro
This is a strange comment section lol 😂
My dancing lessons for cats are much cheaper. I hope you don''t give up on your dreams......
But does your guitar sound better running through your cat?
I had to paws for a moment and give a good cry for poor Tinkerbell.
So what you're saying is, things sound different when you use pot.
Through extensive research, I can confirm this theory.
he said use pot
Sounds like you were on of those guys swearing your TS808 is brighter or darker or brighter...
Me too. Pot makes a difference.
well it was the coke
Pot makes a difference, but caps man... caps will make ya fly!
I definitely prefer the TS9, because I got it for much cheaper than a TS808.
True 189 or 133 now on Amazon but the mini ts808 is good
The 808 has a bigger sound cause it's a bigger number
Hold on... yup. Math checks out. It's a bigger number. Science means it's a bigger sound.
Well, it's 799 bigger, innit?
...And a bigger price tag.
big muff has bigger sound than 808 because its bigger
That's quick maths.
My ts9 sounds the best.... no one else's comes close.....why???
Cos my mother bought it for me26 yrs ago.
in reality anyone who has had one of these for a year or more probably has the best one for them because they have learned where to put the dials to sound good for them, and they have learned to play to the strengths of that particular pedal, because it is all they have played through!
my mother bought me a Rat, its the best Rat ive ever heard
Kengi Hepworth If my mom buys me anything, it’s the best
You have a cool mother
awww
I have been screaming at videos about this for years, even the stupid notion of comparing pedals by putting them at 12o’clock. It’s all randomness because of tolerance variability not to mention confirmation bias. I loved this video for busting that myth wide open at last. It makes the so called experts look like novices. Well done Brian.
Stephen Parry
It's amazing how many ppl have limited knowledge about the gear they're using. Basic electronics people! Tolerances change everything!
It didnt really bust anything. I heard clear difference in the last part. Is the 808 more expensive?
@@allankvist6741 you heard a clear difference because he said one was a TS9 and the other was an 808. It's the same pedals he used throughout the entire video but you only heard a difference when he told you there was one.
It makes the so called experts look like marketers, which is what they usually are
@@kill3r_b75 auch.
Well, it’s obviously the tone metal in the casing that makes the difference. Also, the vintage 808s used a different green lacquer, which vibrates at a smoother resonant frequency. That’s why they’re worth more.
Everyone knows tone metal is a myth! I have pseudoscience that backs it up! I even take 1/4 of the variables into account!
Curse you..I just got over the relic/tone scam.
I routed some f holes in mine and mounted the switch with adhesive. Really brings out the resonance of the pedal.
Not a true comparison unless both are tested in different hemispheres in a vaccum chamber during a full lunar eclipse.That's when the magic happens and the different circuitry really stands out.
If you add a Ferrari sticker everything works faster \m/
I find the 808 has a woodier, oakier fragrance with a hint of flaccidity and a soupcon of the Absurd
I'd hate to think what attributes you would arrive at with a "Big Muff". :)
If you bottled it, you could give it a wine rating.
Yes, and a sophisticated decay reminiscent of a Persian cat fornicating in a sherry cask.
A barrel-aged TS808 will always exhibit hints of vanilla in the nose, while a fresh TS9 is fruitier, reminiscent of black currant. In reality, though, the TS9 only outputs about .02 amperes of black currant.
Its a little bit after birthy.
I love the way you're paying ohmmage to these pedals.
They deserve it for joining the resistance
The TS9 has a more yellow-ish tone where the 808 is more triangular.
Tim McLean oh god I can't stand when people do this
I'd say it has more of a reddish orangish tone and more cubical
For y'all synesthesic people out there
🤣🤣
I don't know if that statement is true, but I couldn't argue that's wrong.
“We’re going to take the TS and get rid of the BS.”
My favorite line ever in a gear video!
Mine has to be from a JHS video about the sound of new pedals vs what they “used to sound like”. He said something like, “ it’s time we as a society admit that we can’t remember what we had for breakfast last Tuesday much less what a pedal sounded like 30 years ago.” 😂
In other words, just buy the mini because it's cheapest :D
or buy the parts and make your own!
I heard that the mini has a “smaller sound stage”.
;)
The mini is pretty good!
And it looks pretty cool on a pedalboard actually.
Or buy the Behringer TS...under $30. Same circuit.
Thank you so much for making this video. I've NEVER been able to tell THAT much of a difference in the TS808, TS9 and Maxon versions. I mean I could always hear just a tiny bit of difference when put into a super clean uncompressed amp, but never much. Even different TS9s sounded different to me though, so I thought i was just crazy. All my 'music friends' told me I was tone def. So the fact that this video exists, makes me feel much better.
Also, I love your pedals man. I have 3 so far :)
I had a guitarist who left my band because I used cheaper alternatives. He took the drummer with him too. still don't know what happened to them after that.
@@RockG.o.d They got 'married' & lived happily ever after!
@@DMSProduktions haha probably.
@@RockG.o.d ;oP
Brian, remember those vintage pedals were wired with unicorn hair. Your test is invalid.
You‘re wrong! They were wired with Jimmy Hendrixs pubic hair...
LOL
That's just a myth, already busted in a previous video.
I'm sticking with the switch. You can clearly hear the smaller switch on the 808. The TS9 has a bigger sound as a result, but some would argue that it's not as focused.
You're all wrong they were made from Keith Richards used needles.
I once did a blind test with 3 pedals, an original TS808, a reissue TS9 and a cheap TS7. There are differences if you hear them side by side but any of them would do the job. I recently bought 2 "identical" new MXR distortions for 2 boards and tried to match them which was a hard job. One has more gain but less top end than the other and it's impossible to not hear the differences when you put them side by side.
They all made a similar sound when placed on top of the amplification head, but the last one had a little less thud.
Lol
Lol blow me... that’s why you have knobs on amp and pedal to increase or decrease thud or whatever you’re dreaming about. In either pedal. Turn you’re knobs you knob.
Oh you mean the TS-JOE... (coffee cup) did have a nice resonance tho
Based on how much I practice, I find that the TS9 sounds like shit most of the time.
I discovered when I was making a home built guitar just how much variation there is in pots. Some pots read as high as 550k and some as low as 450k. It never occurred to me at the time that this would be the same with pedals but now that you point it out, it all makes sense. Thank you for busting the myth.
This happened when alps and many other high quality potentiometer manufacturers had to shut down. People cared more about low price, not tight tolerances. Tolerances in pots has actually got worse since then.
Now, it is stupid to even think about buying alps pots. They cost more than a power transformer now...
The reason is actually out of their control though. Carbon film as the variable resistor is how it is done, but this process is crude and unreliable. Tolerances are determined after the fact, and thus, the tighter the tolerance, the lower the yield, the higher the price, and people are not willing to pay a higher price.
At one point I owned an 808, a TS 9, and a TS 10 and could detect no major discernible differences between them. I just thought I had lousy ears. Thanks Brian!
Man, it's difficult to even tell my TS9 from my SD-1 once I'm going through a gain-y amp with some effects in the loop, and those are *entirely different pedals*. I've always thought anyone who claims to hear a systematic difference between the various tubescreamer models was full of it. Thanks for the vid.
"Take the TS and get rid of the BS". QUOTE OF THE YEAR!
2022 - This channel is where I go if I want a true, no BS, expert opinion and/or comparison about an amp, pedal or anything electronic having to do with guitars. There are so many myths out there that real facts have are starting to become dinosaurs. Great video!
The reason I own a Clarksdale and Ego.
I loved when you set down your coffee (beverage). Possibly the most important piece of gear in that room.
I'm happy with my Joyo Vintage OD. It does that green pedal thing for me. A tool, nothing more.
Crunch2 yeap i love that pedal too. The components are higher quality than ts9 as well hahaha
Joyo pedals are clutch
A Harbor Freight tool can often get the job done as well as say a Snap-on.
Yeah I love the way my LTD sounds when I shred it jacked into my starbucks cup... RAWWWWWWK
I love the fact that Brian invests some of his valuable time trying to educate us in pedal electronics. I am personal testament to the fact that my tonal preferences change over time and I may like the tubescreamer for a while, then move no to explore another drive pedal (currently OCD). I'm pretty sure it has less to do with the actual electronics and more to do with my varying tonal preferences over time. That said, I always enjoy Brian's video's.The clarity he brings to pedal formats helps me explore their differences and enjoy the next step in my tonal journey.
Mind blown. So each pedal in each amp is going to be the differences. Amazing. This brings up more interesting conversation about how our brains remember tones/feelings about what we play and when and how we play it. This would be a great blog topic for Jason.
Some pedal manufacturers (and Wampler is most likely one of these) cherry-pick parts so that their tolerances sort of cancel each other out, making the product more consistent while also not throwing away components. Both the 468k and 514k pots are within tolerance, but it's true, they're not going to behave exactly the same. Cherry-picking the variance on the next part in the circuit can go a long way to cancel that out. The parts are slightly different in each circuit, but because they are matched to each other, the end result is quite similar.
I’m a pedal collectin’ kinda Guy, I already have a 35th anniversary MIJ ts808 but I know I’m gonna have to grab one of them old school 81’ editions for a couple grand to get “that” sound I hear on the radio all day. This channel is one of my favorite to watch on RUclips when it comes to the real deal of what’s what. Keep it up Mr.Wampler
This is why I stopped taking forums seriously for reviews
or youtube
Brian, I have to admit that I didn't know the difference between the two til I watched this video. I found a used and abused TS9 at a Salvation Army thrift store a couple of years ago (I paid $8 for a box of pedals and TS9 was one of them- Lucky me!) All I had to do was wipe the penis artwork off of the box and replace the old knobs for new ones and its been great.
Tom Tobin The ones with the penis artwork are more transparent.
@@tomcoryell has more HEAD room.
@@tomcoryell yeah. I find the penis artwork really just gives more of that growly tone I'm looking for.
yeah but does it last a long time before the pedal peters out?
The funny thing is, talking about the gain knob’s effect on the TS9/808 is like eating a banana without peeling it. The best way to use these pedals is gain low and the volume boosted in front of a CRANKED amp.
Most comments on forums are bedroom levels through an SM57 which can only hear a fraction of the freqs.
When people test, I suggest cranking and using 3 mics. A bass mic, an sm57 style for mids and a condenser good for highs to capture the air. Then you get the full picture re freqs.
Great vid by the way. Keep em coming.
Not all use them that way.
Yeah well, I don't really like circle of tone after the clickbate video about moeer preamps being as good as kemper etc...he's kind of a weirdo. I remember him being the tock tock guy always edgy etc on forums.
There isn't a correct way to use something, it's about what is usefull to a guitarist I guess and I always love watching videos and picking things up.
The tube screamer is as much a normal overdrive as it is a hi gain boost, in fact it started primarly as a "distortion pedal" of the era if you think about it...SRV certainly didn't use it as a hi gain boost.
Peavey solid states of old can be killer amps though. I've got some hi endish stuff (brunetti soldano mesa amps, peavey tube and other stuff) and I am still amazed on what they accomplished with a humble peavey bandit. And that amp certainly doesn't need a boost.
Gain pot is just one part though. Imagine how different amps sound from eachother. We should be A/Bing different models much less and A/Bing some of the same much more.
No.
For you. Not THE best way.
MAD RESPECT!!! More people need to be like you when shooting out stuff and ABing them. Don’t tell or show what is what. Guitar nerds like me hear with their eyes and don’t go after the actual best sound. They like what they want, stubborn and they rarely change their mind.
I used to be the same way.
Great video! Pedal Myth Busters! 👍🙂
We need more of this kind of video. So much nonsense can be dispelled by simple A/B testing under controlled conditions.
The TS-808 is more transparent than the TS-9 in my opinion. It has more "grit" while the TS-9 has more "saturation". Also the Boss Big Muff is more transparent than the TS-808. They all, however, are less transparent than my trusty Red Panda Particle. When Stevie Ray Jimi used that on "My Big Green Tractor" I realized that the quest for true guitar tone would not be completed by one pedal vs another, but by practicing Lydian b7 b9 scales in 5/8 at 200.2b pm. Plug your acoustic into a Line 6 Spider like a REAL man (making sure to have 8 Big Sky's going before it) and have a Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive™ BEFORE the reverbs though. Tone is in the flangers. the phalanges? sorry for the philosophy goodnight
John Reid hahaha
'tone is in the flangers' muhaha thats just about right
🤣
Great video! Those pots (variable resistors) had a large difference in ohms! So, every single pedal will sound technically different from each other, then we have the same situation going on inside the guitar pits, and then the amp pots! ;)
This is useful. I'm going to buy a TS. I posted a thread on TGP asking for recommendations. Actually the majority of comments were along these lines, i.e., "don't buy into all the crap, just get a TS9 or a TS mini". There were a lot of recommendations for TS type pedals from other companies, but not many people saying you have to have a vintage 808 or anything.
CNCTEMATIC If you like it, you should also get an SD-1. Same but different.
I play a lot of fast, palm muted staccato note metal. Keeping the palm mutes fluid with just enough attack to stay "heavy" is better suited for the 808. If you want palm mutes that cut to the bone but feel stiffer get the ts-9. If you don't even play metal get the 808.
One chip in TS9 does suck without a doubt, a 7555 digits on it. Put in a socket and install any of the other chips and R104 with a 2.2k ohm R114 with 100 ohm and R115 with 10k ohm.
Electronic guys never can speak sense but they never shut up. Pot resistance was miniscule in the video.
I modded mine 50 times it seems with different things, foil burned off jumper wires everywhere, all the websites are done by lunatics who cannot explain anything... the above was all I needed. here is a photo of options:
media.stinkfoot.se/2010/11/TSmod.jpg
My friend has a TS9 he bought new in the 80's. I have a reissue TS808 I bought new about two years ago. I compared them side by side - same amp, guitar, settings, etc. - and they sound almost identical. That tells me one of two things. Either I'm tone deaf or the pedals are extremely similar. And Ibanez did a great job of making something new sound vintage.
Great video!
Ibanez makes no money off used pedals. So its in there interest to make new ones that sound exactly like the old ones.
How do they do this?
They simply make the same circuit....
"Take the TS and get rid of the BS"
You're a champ! 🏆
This is a great video. Spot on with the facts. thank you. also, the 808 is more vintage sounding because the 808 came from the 80s /s
I have a Maxon OD9. I heard that Maxon actually made the TS9 pedals for Ibanez. Great Pedal.
Ibanez is a brand of Maxon.
Great job illustrating this debate. There really is a lot of snake oil in the gear world, if you're not careful.
Ahh the BS difference clearly explained .. gotta love it when an expert sets it straight :-)
ya but 10 years ago he would be doing the opposite so he could sell pedals
Kelly Jackson yeah ok but he's still selling pedals. Your comment doesn't make much sense.
yes but hes established now being part of the myth busting trend to look relevant doesnt hurt him and may mke him look credible to some
Kelly Jackson are you a conspiracy theorist by chance?
He's not saying TubeScreamers are no good buy Wampler's version instead. He's saying is there a difference between them .. no not really. Given that he actually has designed and built well respected pedals for years, I'd say he is certainly credible.
there's a difference and i was able to ID them before the reveal. Is it much of a difference? depends on how picky you are. frankly i prefer just the amp's drive over a pedal
Another clinical method to compare these pedals is to record a dry repeated control performance and then re-amp it thru the pedals for a tonal comparison.
There has got to be more of these things out there. Would love to see more similar circuits A/B like this. Fun to see which ones I can and can't hear the difference between.
Another tip, de-solder the stock IC from the circuit board and then solder-in an 8-pin IC socket, doing this makes it easier to swap-out the IC.
Excellent video! Thanks for explaining what shapes the tone of an OD pedal. I can see that two of the same pedals would probably not sound exactly the same. :)
My Ts9 has a cleaner sound because I’ve been brainwashed to believe so.
Thanks for these kind of videos Bryan. I always believed the hype about the TS808 and TS9 and I must say after you demonstrated I can't tell the difference. It started making sense when you explained the differences in tolerance of components and the effect it has on the overall sound. Thanks again. Both are awesome pedals in my books.
Nicely shown, I just knew there wasn't any huge differences. Love your tech vids, keep them coming!
Late to the party but the actual difference in the 2 circuits is 2 resistors and 1 cap. I remember the cap is 47nf in one and 4.7nf in the other. Couldn't quote what from the top of my head.
Loved the video, been screaming this into the void forever. Instant sub
The true secret to maximizing the overall tone of any TS9/808 is running a 9v battery in conjunction with a power supply cable, it truly makes ever bit of difference. One more thing, use Energizer because that Rabbit gives it more kick 👍🏽
BUT he leaves little raisins inside it, that have to be cleaned out periodically!
Thank you Brian!!! I have 9 Tube Screamer-type pedals (Ibanez, DIY and others) and they all sound almost Identical. Maybe some very small differences. Some because of tolerances but most of the differences I hear are in my head ;-)
1:11 STOOOP the bus right there.
"Take the TS and get rid of the BS."
Haaaa! Sensational.
well I've made te 808 mod on a ts9 and the change is more on the resistors values which are changing. The sound of the chipset is a legend...blind tests are really helping. Our brain hears just what we expect! thanks!
Hoo-boy. Maybe the only thing worse than self-professed "golden eared audiophiles" are "golden eared guitar gearheads". :D Brian, get ready - this could end up as bad as the tone-wood ragewar. lol
I get it though. It can be so crushing and disillusioning when factual stuff like science and engineering calls into question long-held, often beloved pre-conceptions. There's gotta be a psychological term for this...
cheers man!
Cognitive dissonance? Or was your question rhetorical?
@@rich1051414 Confirmation bias.
@@jeffbrown-hill7739 In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by the person.
I think Richard got it right.
I absolute LOVE people talking about physical facts and effects, rather than opinions and perception! 🤘
Here's what I do when buying a pedal: I plug it into my rig (yes, I take my rig to the store - they don't mind), then I see how it sounds. If it sounds the way I want it to sound, for a price I want to pay, I buy it. That simple. I don't give a damn if it's labeled TS Mini, TS 9, TS 808, Klon, or any other such thing. It takes very little time or effort to see the reality of it all: Just take two "identical" pedals off the shelf and A/B them. They won't be identical. The same goes for instruments. As such, just test out what the store has and take home the one that best suits your needs. Leave the labels to the posers.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I have a degree in electronics technology, and was aware of tolerance. I just never considered it in the "mystery" of pedals. :)
So, the JHS Bonsai is only simulating potentiometer variances?
Usually if you build one yourself the difference between TS9 and TS808 is you solder in 470R + 100k resistors for the TS9 and 100R+10k resistors for the TS-808. What makes a bigger difference is if they are asymetrical clipping or nah (thats a mod).
@@dynamicdissonance4016 Thanks. I think, if i remember five years ago, i was being sarcastic in asking that question.
Nice video, once again. But you know, ones made in the southern hemisphere do sound quite different from the northern hemisphere pedals because of the reversed spin of the electrons caused by the coriolis effect. It's true. I read it on the interwebs.
They almost sound as good as the Behringer TO800🤣🤣🤣🇨🇦🎸
Thank You for the truth! I knew a long time ago that there are many things like this. It is just business, but people don't understand it.
All I see is Brian can whip up a quick tubescreamer like making a sandwich and it sounds great.
Im glad someone made this video for todays generation. I learned it from a luthier many years ago. saying that models of pedal have hardly perceivable nuances its the same argument that a tone pot makes a guitar better. 99% of people dont seem to realise that the tone pot is CUTTING your tone, not boosting it! in some circumstances, its just one more thing in the circuit cutting the high frequencies. for the record, i'm not saying you shouldn't have one or that having one makes no difference to your sound, but for some types of music (metal rhythm guitar for instance) its superfluous. most of my guitars have a single volume knob and I achieve as much tonally as anyone else but its all in the ears of the beholder (or whatever word means "to listen to something") :) I guess you *COULD* use military grade components that have a far lower tolerance range, but the cost is prohibitive and wheres the fun in that :)
You forgot to factor in the Fourier transformation effect
that occurs when a guitar player has cleaned out their ear canal.
I laughed out loud at your 3:28 review. Loved it! So many tone freaks are about minutiae shit that is so irrelevant when a full band kicks on top in a live situation. Great job
I could both hear the difference and correctly chose which was which. I've played the TS9 for years and am extremely familiar with the sound (and also an audio engineer). Every time I plug in a TS808 I can hear the difference immediately and I really don't like them for what I do. Having the right drive completely changes the feel of my tone and how I play. Unfortunately, the real truth is that the difference is very small, some people can hear it and others cant (for various reasons), and to those that can it may or may not be important. To those who consider it important, like me, its nearly a deal breaker, so it tends to get overblown as an issue where it really only applies to players with an ear for it. As to the differences between the same models leading to massive price differences, I think thats sillier than the tone/feel difference.
Fantastic comments section - best I've ever read. Good to know the laugh lives on.
My ts9 has such a clean tone that I usually put it in the washing machine with my whites to brighten the wash.
I recently watched the TS-9 vs. Kokko 's "Green" overdrive video and found the differences to be very minor. I bought the Kokko to do some pedal stacking and am pleased with the result. I am pleased with the overall signal to noise even at high gain levels. Great video about a very "over-chewed" subject
Not here to dispute anything said here. I'm just wondering what the point of the additional parts in the TS9/808 are if they make no difference.
Just a different way to achieve basically the same thing, I believe.
Thanks Brian! Maybe someday people will learn to listen with their ears instead of their eyes, or their buddy’s/the internet’s opinions.
I had a friend ask me to compare his new made in China Rat to my old ‘86 Rat. He wanted me to give him my opinion on what mods should be done to make it sound like my old pedal. He was frustrated by the differences when all the knobs were set at the same positions on both pedals. Of course, when I set the two by what we were hearing instead, almost all the differences went away. So much for vintage mojo, op-amp magic etc.
I think he’ll be fine now. He’s cool with his Chinese pedal.
cheers!
I easily picked the first slightly more treble less smooth breakup tone to be the TS9 and the smoother 2nd one was the 808. Every time he switched. I have them both and although the values change on components from pedal to pedal, there does seem to be a consistent audible difference, at least to me. But some cannot discern between Pepsi and Coke so.
You sir, are quickly becoming one my favorite youtubers/people.
I know the schematic of the tubescreamer because I built it. I also studied buffers a lot, and the difference between the TS9 and TS808 is in the output buffer. No night and day difference, but there IS a subtle difference and you can definitely hear it if you know "where" (in the frequencies spectrum) to look for it: the 808 as slightly more top end presence and slightly less bass. I could spot which one was which easily at the blindfold test at beginning of the video. No, nobody will be able to go to a concert and say "oh yes, this is definitely a TS9 I'm hearing, it can't be a TS808". BUT if you know your gear, you might prefer one over the other, mostly depending on how your basic clean tone is set (brighter or darker). No, moving the TS tone pot doesn't really changes the tone in the same way. Yes, accommodating with your amp's presence control might give you the same results. But if you previously set your amp tone controls that way and like the result, why moving them to accommodate for a pedal? Luckily enough the difference is very subtle, so anyone can live with one or the other in his/her pedalboard. But people who had the fortune to try both (with their own gear) and have a preference, are not victims of a psychoacoustic bias! They are really hearing that difference (which anyone can hear in the video with a good pair of headphones/speakers, so thanks Brian) so they are not to ban!
You are talking about less then 2% of a sound difference. And those can not explain the prizes for vintage 808. So actually yes, this is about psychoacoustic bias. People believe something is better because other people told them so (see: Klon, Neve 1073 etc etc)
Michael Kupfer As I build my own pedals, I don't care about prices. I'm only saying that the difference is there, and that it suffices for choosing one over the other. So again no, there is no psychoacoustic bias here.
Dude, he even explained in the video that the tolerance of the parts functions make a bigger difference than the 2 different pedals. If you do hear a difference,you are hearing the tolerance difference and would be hearing the same thing if you compare 5 ts9 or 5 ts808 to each other. It's not the pedal that makes the difference it's the quality of the parts. Both use the same quality of parts so it's going to come down to each specific pedals tolerance across the board.
James Crider, the TS I built has sockets to compare those two output buffer resistors: you would hear that difference too! As soon as I will find a way to record in high quality, I will make a comparison video
shredgd5 I just bought a clone Ts9 808 pedal for $27.
I (with the help of some donations) put 3 ts9s in front of a few amps. I could easily see that the pots trimmed at different levels, but this did not stop me from finding the same "sweet spot" on all 3 pedals. The point of all this is that you try before you buy, and go with what YOU like!
Am I the only one who thought the upper mid/treble characteristic was different in the two modes he played? I still think the ts9 has a brighter character.
Yes you are, because there was no difference. You THINK there is a difference, so your ears perceive a difference.
Thanks for that Brian! The (marginal) tone difference between the two pedals is like moving your right hand just slightly towards the bridge, so you get more of a TS9 sound (or is it more like a TS808?) 😉 Anyway, I sold both my TS9 (mid 80s) and my 808 (original late 70s) and I am still very happy with my Pro Co Rat. Btw: SRV used TS808 in the beginning, then TS9 and TS10 in late 1988...food for thought?
After buying a TS808 to sound like SRV people were like "WTF" when SRV's guitar tech came out and said that Stevie actually used a TS10 for a long time...sorry
The TS-10 has a slightly different circuit, but almost the same sound.
There was a long time when SRV didn’t use a pedal and plugged straight into the amp.
Great video. Love the proto board. I like tone in electric guitar playing, but I’m also an EE and also don’t like the hype surrounding this stuff.
Some of the comments on your video are as entertaining as the video itself! Cool ! Keep it up.
But your TS808 circuit sounds brighter and louder... This is confusing me.
This kind of knowledge is invaluable to an electronics novice like myself. Again it confirms to me the genuineness of your own products to do what you say they will and not just be disguised with marketing hype. Well done.
P.S - my TS9 is darker than my TS808, but they likely changed the pigment. 🤫
He didn't mention one thing: this parts also change its properties during time - pedals sound different with age. I'm not kidding. So, there is a chance that vintage pedals with the same circuit as a new one will sound slightly different.
Yes, due to component drift, which has the same results as tolerance differences. 😊
_More_ results than tolerance differences. Drift can easily halve or double a component's value -- or worse yet, make it behave totally different hot than it does cold. This is a much wider swing than component tolerance allows for.
Tolerance is meant to include the varying of value with temperature. I don't think it takes into account long-term drift. It's hard to say if modern components suffer from long term drift. We don't use ancient carbon comp resistors any more.
Electrolytic capacitors drift quite significantly with age, especially in equipment made 10 to 15 years ago due to "capacitor plague". If they haven't exploded, it's generally safe to assume they're well out of spec by now. Fortunately, the much lower operating voltage of solid state equipment means that the sound will suffer and perhaps the circuit will misbehave, but it is highly unlikely to harm the user. The same can't be said of leaky capacitors meant to suppress high voltage DC in tube circuits.
So if old components have value drift, how do I know what a vintage TS808 sounds like? By now they should all be completely different. If one sounds good, it's just coincidence that the components changed value in a way that produces a nice tone.
Awesome video. I get soooooo tired of people bullshitting to justify spending twice as much for a “higher end” TS. The only real differences you’ll find between Tube Screamers is when you compare a 4-knob and 3-knob unit, for obvious reasons. You have another parameter to control.
I use a Super Tube and TS9, and while the Super Tube can easily get the normal TS sound, the TS9 can’t quite do some of the stuff the Super Tube can do.
They sound really good together too. Just set each to very different settings from each other and let er rip! I run them simultaneously into an Ibanez Black Noise distortion. I wasn’t expecting a pedal I got for $20 new twenty years ago to knock off my “nicer” distortion pedals, but here we are. It’s a killer sound.
I love both but I own neither! I do own a modded Boss SD-1 which I also love...
same here
excellent explanation. I do prefer the 808 circuit and yes i can hear the difference
Not that it matters, but when you were doing the A/B, they sounded different to my ears. Not sure which is which - and doesn't matter to me. Do they sound identical to other people's ears?
Not mine, but they sound similar enough that the huge wall of text is unneccessary. One sounded slightly smoother(more midrange) than the other.
Meh. Sometimes I thought one sounded slightly brighter.
Sounded slightly different to me too. Different enough to make a difference?..,I'd say more to the player than the listener.
I'm betting in a mix they sound almost identical, also the difference could be down to different tolerances in the parts used on the breadboard as well.
This could be the tolerance in that huge part playing the guitar.
A friend bought the TS9 for me as a gift. My intention was to try this with my bass guitar… I have to say that it sounded great right out of the box. I saw the “stinkfoot” mod on line to increase bass response. I did that and it made it even better. Not over the top or anything… just slight but much better! At low or high gain, it sounds great with bass. Thanks for the great content Brian 🫡
Cliff Burton's pedal of choice...i went with a bass ts9 just for the sake of low end as i didnt have anyone to mod a ts9 for me...either way, yeah killer sound
That's the biggest solder sucker I've ever seen.
luckyno888 that's what she said
Hi there Mr. un named Guitar player, fixer, electronic component fondler etc... I so appreciate you explaining about the tolerance issue (so every pedal will have components of slightly different value which may or may not contribute to THAT actual pedal's sound). I think the way you play guitar, both the pedals sound good. I only feel assertive about this because you are a good player. The way you hold, or actually play guitar had a lot to do with it. And of course so do the amps and pedals. For all I know, the tone you got from both pedals were better because you worked on your amp, and did something to make that sound better. Therefore everything sounded better. A good portion of it is in the hands as well. (but we know that).
How about the tubescreamer mini?
Probably just sounds smaller because there is less tone metal used in the enclosure.
@@jasonpitre1249 🤣
Thanks for doing this, I thought it was just me not getting it. At last I’ll just listen to what I like best and buy rather than follow the hype.
I bet Eric Johnson would know which one sounds the best....
He would probably also claim that one would sound better than the other if it had another brand of 9V battery in it, and also which screws that were used to plug the pedal case together.
I thought the 808 sounded a little bit better subjectively
Wow they are oh so close! But the TS9 setting did sound just ever so very slightly brighter to me haha.
I'm so tired of hearing all the subjective terms thrown around when describing sound. Growl, warm, dark, bright, etc.
The general comparisons me and my buddies make is usually a "this sounds shitty" and a "damn that sounds nice." Spending time playing and adjusting settings instead of talking about tone is a really good way to end up with a sound you're really happy with.
I get note of Carmel in the ts9. But notes of vanilla in the 808.
All TS's sound like mushy green lumps of midrange. The reason they're so popular is that they correct the Strat's complete lack of mid range and ease some of the shrill treble.
He’s not wrong.
Funny, I used to be into "Hi-Fi", bought the magazines, lusted after the high end stuff...but realised (as luckily i do have a hobbyist background in electronics) that so much of the 'differences" between gear was down to "wish fulfilment" especially when it comes down to things like components. Like being able to hear the differences between different brands of (extremely expensive) speaker wire, etc. etc.
Yes,you are absolutely right, a circuit will have it's own sound, and that is down to the actual circuit topology being used. All components have tolerance ranges, and most of the tiny differences between ostensibly identical devices are pretty much down to that. So like amps and especially pedals, no two devices ,even though they came of the production process next to each other, will be identical. However, the circuit topology used in the device will determine how much of a difference component tolerances lends to the device. You can buy a pedal from Amazon (Biyang OD-8 X-Drive) which is an overdrive pedal with a cover on the back where you can swap out the op-amp in the drive circuit for different types (i.e. manufacturer) to get the sound you want. Try it. the only differences you will hear are due to the gain of the op-amp and the way the circuit is implemented in the op-amp. No magic involved...
Guitarists are told that "orange drop" caps are great, and cheap disc ceramics are crap. and of course hideously expensive hand made oil and paper caps are the best, "...'cause that's what they used in the 50's. man, it's vintage, so it's better, so take my money!"
Sadly, there will always be a lot of snake oil, especially amongst guitarists, where "Vintage: is venerated, and "New" is dismissed.
Uh... you said you have a background in electronics, but you should never use ceramics in audio applications... ever. They are microphonic. That is the one case where it actually does make a difference. Now, orange drop caps are stupid, but you can just use any old film capacitor instead.
this is EXACTLY spot-on! its confirmation bias (i.e. wish fulfillment). We tend to find or focus on the evidence (audio or otherwise) that CONFIRMS our pre-existing notions or worldview... same exact thing with the Chump supporters... if a person has a provincial/ simplistic worldview and hates immigrants and minorities... they dont hear Chump telling an average of 15 provably false lies per day.... Because what he says completely fits into their understanding of how the world is... and indeed those things "could" be true... Just like if you paid vintage price for an 808 you are likely to read comments that highlight the (insignificant) circuit differences and will focus on the comments that confirm your pre-existing notion which rationalizes your paying way too much for a vintage 808. There are many studies on this type of human behavior and the "double blind" test and many other concepts in social science derive from it. You hit it right on Tim Beaton!!!!
There's not a lot of difference, but to my ear, with decent headphones, I can hear a bit more bottom end on the TS808 circuit. I've screwed around with SPICE programs (for nerds), and I can say, objectively, that there is a quantifiable difference, even if slight. Throw in part tolerances, and a lot of that goes up in the air. But more importantly, why does it matter if someone thinks they hear a difference or if someone doesn't? I swear that the 808 sounds a bit creamer, to my ear. And I've done enough research into the circuit to say that's that isn't an unfounded belief. Again, I completely agree that tolerances will probably have a greater effect on a TS styled overdrive then a few resistors, I mean, SRV famously went through tons of them to find the perfect pedal, if that isn't evidence enough. However, that doesn't mean people's anecdotal evidence is wrong either. They might just have better hearing for those special frequencies. I can say that I can't hear a massive difference between a green back and blue back, and jeez do I keep that opinion to myself, because people swear by blue backs. Also, I don't have a lot of experience in person with blue backs, so relying heavily on compressed RUclips videos for information isn't exactly helpful either. To conclude, I do understand the point of the video, and I don't entirely disagree with it, I just believe that people will have there opinions, and just because you can't understand them, doesn't mean they are wrong. Keep up the good work Wampler!
It matters because people spend money based on what they believe is a design difference when it's a random result of the flawed manufacturing process that does not create all products alike. Then they spend time being wrong on the internet. I'm not paying my ISP for people to be wrong on my internet, goddammit!
And creamy isn't a word that is applicable to sound. You're thinking cheddar.
Nice comparison. The difference is definitely subtle with the guitar amp/combo you're using. To dispel more mythology it would be neat to try your A/B tests with a Marshall and a Fender to test the response to varying input stages. And again with maybe a Les Paul and a Strat to see the difference with pickup loading.... and I bet the results will be similar.