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Just How Bad is the 5.0ltr Timing Chain Problem?
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- The 5.0ltr V8 engine, as fitted to the Range Rover L322, has got a bad reputation for timing chain drama -- and in this video I explain exactly how the timing chains work and why they fail. In addition, I briefly discuss how to help extend the life of the chains if you haven't changed them out and what can go wrong if they fail completely.
The video includes an example of the sound of a healthy engine and a look at the components that fail. The engines don't always give up, and I know several vehicles personally that are approaching 1/2 a million miles on the original chains -- including my own 2011! However, JLR has lost a class action lawsuit on the chain failures and has, allegedly, resolved the issue on newer engines (meaning that vehicles fitted post 2013 should not have any issue with the chain guides).
A potential for failing chains, however, is not enough reason to not buy a 2010-2012 model L322. These are amongst the best vehicles Land Rover has ever produced, and models without the timing chains replaced are often available for significantly less than models that have had the work done (meaning that you can buy them and have the work done for peace of mind if you so choose).
The timing chain issue was allegedly resolved fro owners of the AJ-V6, which is essentially the same block as the V8. However, I do know of several of those whose chains have failed -- despite having the later, upgraded design, timing chain guides.
--------- Contents of the Video --------------
0:00 - Opening Credits
0:26 - Introduction
1:25 - The Benefits of Checking the Vehicle Over When You Work on It
2:30 - The Various Petrol Engine Options in an L322
7:09 - How Timing Chains Work
11:53 - What Causes Them to Fail
13:43 - The Class-action Lawsuit
15:55 - Land Rover's Technical Bulletin & How to prevent Against Failure
20:00 - One Way to know if Your Timing Chains are Stretched
22:15 - How a 5.0ltr Direct Injection Engine Should Sound
22:55 - Conclusion
24:14 - End Credits
The intro and outro are from: EEAAEA
Performed by: VVibeTrix (Johanna Ahola-Launonen, Maarit Laihonen, Matti Häyry, Mikaela Mansikkala, Satu Haiko)
Music: Matti Häyry
Lyrics: Matti Häyry
Arrangement: Matti Häyry, Mikaela Mansikkala, Lacce Väyrynen
Recording: Matti Häyry, Lacce Väyrynen
Studio engineering: Matti Häyry, Lacce Väyrynen
Producer: Lacce Väyrynen
Executive producer: Matti Häyry
Mastering: Kesthouse
With Permission from: (c) Matti Häyry and Polite Bystander Productions 2019
Really useful video - great explanation and even a little reassuring!
You’re welcome! I’m glad it helped to settle your mind a bit!
I've got two of these engines in Jaguars, I think it's important buyers realise they really do sound bloody awful with the bonnet up and idling, loads of injector noise, heavy combustion noise like a diesel, and all sorts of other alarming sounds.
It's also quite common after a hot start to also get a weird and VERY worrying knocking sound that vanishes with any revs, seems to be some sort of resonance in the exhaust but lots of cars have it. Chain wear sounds exactly as you'd expect, a chain flapping about hitting stuff!
Yeah, that’s very true. The days of rolling, bumbling V8s have gone. My carbed V8 in the RRC sounded lovely under the bonnet, but this thing sounds like a rattley piece of junk in comparison.
I’ve never heard the knocking sound in mine, but the exhaust is likely very different. I have frequently heard the peculiar knocking that comes from the fan pulley (probably), which is similarly intermittent and comes when the engine is hot (but occasionally also on start up).
Excellent summary
Thank you
You’re welcome, Joe! Glad you enjoyed it!
I just purchased a 2011, 5.0 supercharged Range Rover with 82,000 miles on it. I was wondering how to gain some sort of access to the timing chain without dismantling the engine. Thank you for the oil filler and dowel suggestion. Your explanation of how the components interact with the timing chains was extremely clear and concise and very much appreciated. Excellent video
Thanks, John! I’m very pleased to hear that it was helpful to you! Give as much time as you can for the oil to weap past the seals in the tensioners, then you aren’t fighting the hydraulic pressure on the chain.
Congrats on your new whip!
You can gain access by removing the primary intake, Serpentine belt tensioners, fan shroud, viscous fan clutch and hub, harmonic balancer and hub, then pull the timing cover behind that. Check the high pressure fuel pump chain for slop and stretch while there. Very common to see the high pressure fuel pump cam jump a few teeth and give a P0087 code. I'm an ex land rover mechanic from the cider country part of the uk now living 13 hours East of this cheerful chap in Alberta. : )
Nice video, thank you i learned something new
Thanks, Adrian! I’m glad it was helpful!
Helpful video, thank you!
Glad it was useful!
I hope you have a good 2023, Happy New Year.
Thanks, Bossman! I hope so too. All the best to you and yours, as well!
My 2011 with 62k miles sounds perfect and when you push on the chain it can be moved a tiny bit but you have to push and you can feel the tension. No slop at all. Think Im okay for a while at least. Its had 5k oil changes since new. Great video.
Yup! Sounds in grand health! Congrats on a really good service history! You know your stuff! Keep up those service intervals, and I’m certain yours will look after you for a long time!
Don’t neglect the transmission service at 75,000km while yours has few enough miles - people often leave them until too late or follow JLR’s service instructions (which is not to service them). You’re still under the ZF recommended interval, so bear it in mind ☺️
Thanks for this info.
You’re very welcome! I’m glad it helped!
Timing chain guides: BMW M62 powered L322 has entered the chat
The M62 has a similar issue with the timing chain, though there it is mostly caused by deteriorating timing chain guides. Just keep an eye out for timing chain tension and do not forget to change the oil every 8-10 thousand km, but this is an annoying issue for any engine.
Yeah I heard that the VANOS became noisy on the BMW 4.4 and that the chains stretched. I suppose it’s a downside to the OHC engine design.
I think the W lump is also hampered by running over temp, which can’t do the oil any good. They sound lovely, though and I have been really impressed with the ones I’ve had.
Fantastic and detailed explanation of this issue! Thank you.
Question: I am considering the purchase of a 2019 Supercharged Sport with the 5.0 engine. Did the problem persist through this time, or were they redesigned by 2019?
You’re very welcome - I’m glad it helped.
The materials were changed sometime in 2011, but not all production units saw modified materials in engine builds. That is to say that some MY12s are built with new materials and some MY14s still had the old style chain guides as the various batches were used up (I know, right?!)
Anyway, by 2019 you’re quite safe. Though the coolant pipe that passes under the blower and the one behind the timing cover are still potential issues.
Recently found your channel, just brilliant! Thank you for all the information - and inspiration! I'm currently in a L320 from 2010 with the 3.0 TDV6, looking to get in to at L322 with the 4.4 or 4.2 Jaguar engine. Do you know if they have the same issues? All the best, keep it up! Cheers from a cold Sweden, Aleks
Hi Alex!
I’m glad you found the channel - thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.
No, the 4.4AJV8 and the 4.2SC AJV8 do not suffer from the timing tensioner and guides issue and are generally regarded as the most reliable lump Land Rover make (though the 3.5 Rover V8 is *actually* the most reliable lump).
All that being said, my 4.4 AJV8 was a complete disaster and caused me untold headaches and I'd never have another! That's only my experience, though. They do suffer from coolant crossover pipe failure, water pump failure, cam and crank sensor issues, and the coolant bleed screw thingy (which fails and should be replaced with a metal one; you’re wise to carry one with you at all times).
If you’re plumbing for a 4.2SC L322, then try to find a MY08, as they come with some better tech and the facelift issues had been ironed out by then; the MY07s, for some reason, seem really prone to electrical dramas.
Thank you immensly for taking the time to reply, much appreciated! Looking forward to the next video. @@shedlock2000
@@a.kraj1389 You're very welcome!
Great video, I have a 2019 RR Velar P340, it has the supercharged 3.0L Jaguar motor, do you know if this motor has timing chain guide issues at all? It can be a bit noisy during cold starts. It has around 150,000kms which is getting up there, I was thinking of getting the timing chains replaced on it soon. It’s been super reliable up to this point which has been nice.
Hi Ben,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you - I’m having a busy time of things at the moment.
No, the P340s do not have the timing chain defect on the tensioners. The noise likely comes from a delay in getting oil to the various parts of the engine on start up. The tensioners are oil filled, a bit like the hydraulic tappets on the old Rover V8s. Once the oil drains from them they take a second or two to fill back up and pressurise. The same is true with the newer engines - and especially direct injection engines which can be noisy.
That said, seals fail over time and it’s possible, if you have not maintained short service intervals, that the seals in the tensioners are starting to fail, letting oil wrap out more over down time. I suspect there’s be little chance of issue with services done every 5,000 miles, but you may have developed premature wear if you’ve maintained a JLR service interval.
Very interesting! This is the first I’ve heard of the Class Action. I’m in the States and do you think it would worth me contacting my local LR Dealership and asking if they can offer a remedy to the timing chain issue? My local LR Specialist says he would charge about $2,500 to fix it before the chain slips or it will cost about $7,500 after. Curious to know your thoughts on all that.
It’ll cost you more than $7,500 if it bends things! Lol!
You can try contacting JLR, but I think there’s a 9 year old limitation on the thing, from what I can tell. Up in Canada there’s not much chance to get anything like that done - despite a class-action lawsuit!
Certainly, though, I would get them done if you’re unsure about them, they’re noisy, or if you can determine any deflection in the chain through the method I showed in the video. $2,500 is a bit too cheap, though. It’s important to use only JLR parts and you’ll need to change a few extra things while you’re in there (supercharger isolator, if fitted; valley coolant pipes; cam sprockets; water pump and tensioner pulleys; etc).
I have a 2013 petrol NA L320 with the 'updated' (but still not perfected) aluminium chain guides with the hardended seat as you mentioned. I'm looking to sell it and get a L322 (which I should have got in the first place!). I wonder if the updated 2013 guides can be used in a 2010-2012 era AJ133 motor? - UPDATE: Finished watching you video where you cover this :)
I often take a little time to get there! lol! Glad I answered your question for you, and good luck with your L322 (I much prefer them to the L405s).
I have a 2013 LR4, AJ-V8 5.0 apparently it did not make the cut for updated tensioners. I see dates in the engine bay of 6/13. Mine made it to 173k miles when I decided the noise was bad enough to fix. Guides that came out do not have the steel button, however the tensioner has a flat face which seems newer from what I have researched.
I’m sorry to hear about the bad luck. There were a variety of ‘parts-bin’ builds from about 2011 on. Given the prestige of the Range Rover at the time, I suspect the L322 and L405s received the lions mane of the new bits on their builds.
Of course, that also doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a defective hardening or similar on later design parts that were installed in your engine (assuming it had the later equipment) - parts do just fail, it’s just that the later design failed significantly less than the earlier ones.
@@shedlock2000 I bought the LR4 with 50k miles, excellent condition. By 100k I knew of the potential problem and had parts at the ready. I think I've had good luck making it to 173k, but then again I'm the type that is always listening and scrutinizing my machines. I've just always been disappointed that mnfgrs have intentionally engineered products to have limited lifespan. My other truck is now at 750,000 miles and timing has never been a problem, won't be either past a million because it was engineered well (Isuzu Diesel, GMC Duramax) the rest of that truck is a different story. My LR4 will have a long life ahead.
I share your worries about poor design. This issue, however, was (relatively) quickly recognised as poor material hardening; the shift in design was done quite quickly in the engine’s history to resolve an observed engine issue and they doubled down and modified design as well. I’m actually surprised JLR responded so quickly (given their history with the original L322 front diffs and other such issues over various models, they don’t have a good reputation for resolving obvious issues quickly).
I’ve done well with these engines and my earlier 2011 had over 700k on the engine (box was changed around 650k with original chains and guides (pre-update tensioners) before I moved him on to pick up the L663, so I’m not convinced that there’re many inherent design issues with the engine. I suspect that a significant cause of engine trouble is excessive JLR oil change intervals during its warranty period, over-enthusiastic or under-enthusiastic driving, and a general lack of attention to temperature management and oil selection. However, it is clear that some design flaws are innate (such as the supercharger isolator, which seems to be a consumable service part every 100k or so).
@@shedlock2000 Job is done, updated parts installed by myself so worries are put to bed for now. I completely understand that ALL manufacturers engineer a "lifetime" into their products or else they wouldn't have much of a market. Study the lightbulb and how the largest manufacturers of them got together to make them last shorter. Look at the LED... promising, however the power supplies (drivers) die early... Hmmmm. My Duramax was engineered by Isuzu, it just passed 750,000 miles this week with no timing issues so go figure.
Sweet! Glad you got it in! How was the install? Everything go according to plan? Did you replace the SC isolator at the same time?
Well, like I said, my 3.5NA RRC ran 1.1 million km without ever needing any engine work and my last L332 did 700k without having any timing work done as well, so I don’t know that there’s an innate timing issue here so much as material build defect that was resolved shortly after the issue became known. I do take your point, however, about built-in failure.
how much does it cost to fit an updated tensioner and guide at a n indy garage ball park?
Hmmm, depends on the Indy and where you’re located. It’s not much less at the Indy in Calgary than it is to take it to JLR. I’d say the cheapest you’re going to find with OEM parts is about $6,500CAD. I know some people in the IS have been able to get it done for $5,000USD.
If you check the chain tension under the oil fill cap, how much play in the chain is too much?
The chains are stretched by the tensioner due to oil pressure. You should check them cold to permit the oil to escape (as much as it can) the tensioner. There should be very little play and it should feel quite tight and under tension. I would expect no more than about 1/4-1/2” of total deflection (both ways). The chain should have no more than 1-3mm of total stretch in the chain overall, so imagine how that might extend over the length of the chain. At 5mm of stretch the chain would need replacing.
Great thank you so much for this info! Really appreciate your video.
How much does it cost roughy to replace the chains, guides?
The parts are not prohibitive (you should be able to get the whole kit for about $1500. However, the labour required to complete the job is significant. You should not avoid replacing the Supercharger isolator nor the tensioners; it is also a good idea to replace the water pump, which fails over time.
This 2012 Range Rover Autobiography went for $70,000 Usd recently! Mind blowing. Did you see it by any chance? on bringatrailer in May
Which 2012 Range Rover is that?
I tried to post the link but you tube removed it.
ahhhh! What wa she title of the video? I’ll try to look it up!
Give me a few minutes. I have just got back from work. It’s late here in western Manitoba! 😎
I am going to do a quick job on my Arctic White L322. Supercharger tensioner pulley.
Looked at a 2010 Full Size SC here in Ontario today. Has 155,000km on it and it drove well on the test drive with no lights illuminated on the dash. I listened for engine noises in the fellows driveway and didn't hear anything out of the ordinary. No guarentee the engine hadn't been started prior to my arrival. Would it still be possible there is a timing chain issue? The price is good and i'm ready to roll the dice but need some encouragement!
Hey bud,
Ok, you need to hear the thing start from cold. There should be a loud rattle and heavy engine noise for about 20 seconds as the engine finds its idle (which it should do at about 800-900rpm). You should listen closely to the engine for any chain slap and do the probe test that I mentioned by looking into the oil filler (engine OFF, obviously).
At that mileage, there may be slack in the chain; you can test this by using a screwdriver to press on the chain as I mention in the video - but this MUST be done and WITH THE ENGINE OFF!
Watch my video on buying an L322, and I will try to record a video this weekend on things to look out for. Before buying it, you should take it to an independent shop to get them to read the codes. There may be many vestigial or hidden codes, these are ok, but serious ones may include engine or transmission issues.
I’ll try to cover that in my video as well. If you can hold him off for a week, then I can put this video together - otherwise, reach out to me on FB or Insta and I’ll try to give you more specific counsel! You need to take care to pick the right L322 - price isn’t always the best indicator of the best buy!
@@shedlock2000 did you get to do a full inspection on yours prior to purchase? There is a bit of a language barrier between me and the seller which has lead to him having a difficult time selling it. Just to recap: he is the 2nd owner, had it for 3 years and put 15,000km on it, previous owner serviced at main dealer, 153,000km and I can get it for $9000 CAD and he will sell it with a safety for additional $300. It drove well in the test drive and the engine sounded great ( may have been warm when I got there - can't be certain ). I'd send you a direct message if I knew how. You seem to be quite knowledgeable about these.
Hey bud!
Yeah, I always do a full inspection on mine whenever I buy one. Mine actually came from an auction house and had stood there for over a year! I knew there would be some stand-related issues to mine, as well as the usual suspects (worn control arm bushes and missed gearbox service etc). I won’t buy one unless I’ve poked around it fully - including seeing all the codes and hearing it start from cold.
I’ve e new video coming out in the next week or so that will help you with things to check when buying an L322, but you might not want to wait that long. Idk if I can send you a special preview link or something (I’ll look into it). The most important thing for you is to make sure *everything* works: the heated/cooled seats, the AC, the heater, the rear heater, the radio, the handbrake, the TRS controls, the suspension, the wipers, the heated windscreen, the seats, the steering column, the diff locks, the windows, the sunroof - everything. Then check the codes from the vehicle with an OBDII tool. Check underneath, the doors, the sills, and the tailgate for rust (particularly problematic out there), then check the engine and transmission for leaks.
The original owner will not have done it any favours by servicing it at JLR, which have far too long a service interval. So you will need to fully service it throughout (including diff oils and transmission filter and oils). You’ll need shorter than average engine services to refresh the engine after extended service intervals from JLR, and it’ll need the power steering fluid and brake fluid swapping at 153km, as they won’t have been done.
You can find me on instagram here: instagram.com/shedlocktwothousand?igshid=YTQwZjQ0NmI0OA%3D%3D& - that has a message function, and you’re welcome to chat to me there!
@@shedlock2000 where did you end up getting your chains done? Have you ever heard these make sort of a "chug chug chug chug" sound? Maybe the nature of these engines especially with 100,000kms+. I am probably going to being mine in for a look over so I can sleep better at night!
@@rippinmachines No, cant say I have heard a 'chug chug' before. Feel free to send me an audio clip on Insta or something. I have done several chains myself before, but the ones on this were done at JOR when they did some other work for me (and stored my rangy for me while I was back in the UK)! My last engine did 700,000 mile and is still riding around Calgary -- its only just broken in with 100,000km. Change the oil regularly and you will be fine!
I wonder why the 2011 LR4 was left out. It has the same engine.
Sorry! It was - I think the 5.0 was fitted to the LR4 from 2010 onwards, but I’m not sure if the dates.
Only one shop on my area will touch it and they want $5500 or more once they "get in there".
I just can't justify that for a vehicle prone to so many others issues. Every two months there is something else. Meanwhile my 2004 Pacifica is going strong.
I did replace the timing belt but that was an easy DYI with only one specialized tool I borrowed from Autozone. So unfortunately when the 5.o engine goes the LR goes too.
Are you referring to an LR4 that’s been difficult or an L322?
I did not have much luck with my LR3 - it was a veritable nightmare. But my L322s have been reasonable. If you are talking about an LR4, then the 5.0 chains were already manufactured with the later type tensioners (at least post 2012, for sure).
You shouldn’t avoid reaching out to JLR for some things - negotiating with them over some issues can be surprisingly cost effective. Up here it costs about $5500 for the timing chains - about $7500 if you want the supercharger, water pump, and other ancillaries done at the seam time).
My last few American made vehicles have been disastrous (and lower mileage), so I’ve not had your experience!
Hi Steve oil changes again you keep saying it change the oil change the oil long oil changes are for accountants .
Hi Jon! Happy new year!
I keep saying it for a reason! If you check the FB pages for the various Land Rover groups, you’ll see nothing but people asking why their transmissions stutter or if the 21,000 mile oil change is right.
With some exceptions, the reality is that almost all premature component failures are caused by poor oil service intervals. What gives Land Rover vehicles their (recent) poor reputation is a function (largely) of the extended JLR service intervals (at best) which have resulted in issues passed down from the original owner to the second or third owners - who then rightly complain about reliability issues.
Most British engineering requires more dedicated servicing and fiddling; owning such a vehicle is not suited to various other mindsets and avoiding the fiddling generally results in failure. For an example, many Americans pull the Jag V12 out of their XJ’s because they’re ‘overly complex and unreliable’. This is simply not true: they are certainly complex, but with regular servicing they can pull well over 1/2 million miles without the slightest difficulty.
While some people call the complexity or need for frequent fiddling a flaw or poor design, I rather like it. I’d sooner fiddle, lovingly, with something to maintain it’s peak running performance than I would run some Chevy until the box falls out of it, or some Ford until the head gaskets fail (usually both about 200,000km). My Land Rovers, in comparison, are usually fault free at very high mileages (my last L332 had 450,000 miles and my RRC had 1.1 million kilometres - I’ll let the Americans boast about their engineering designs when they can make such claims.
Surely even a light duty engine like the 5litre should have a design life between major overhauls of 6000 hours+ in this day and age. That means at least 180,000 miles at an average of 30mph or faster. Such extreme wear at any lesser mileage is just unacceptable even if this was a ‘cheap’ car. More heavy duty engines have design life of 15,000 hours these days after all, which even at a 25mph average speed equates to 375,000 miles. This should be with no major repairs but perhaps a water pump and a set of injectors, fan belt and peripherals such as starters and alternators. Should one really expect less than a trouble free 180,000 miles from a Range Rover engine? A Land Cruiser V8 or straight six engine would almost certainly drive a trouble free 300,000 miles. Heck even my old 1984 LR 110 HiCap 2.5 diesel managed a trouble free 150,000 miles of towing 3.5 tons and otherwise mainly farm work over 22 years with only a couple of timing belt changes, oil changes every 5000 miles until finally a piston broke. I reckon it averaged 15mph but it needed high revs to move [67hp], so 10,000 hours of work at least. Third gear at 30mph equalled 3000 rpm in that and it spent an amazing amount of its running time at between 3000 and 4000 rpm compared to modern engines.
I think this was the concern which led to the class action lawsuit. My last one had well over 450,000 miles on it without any engine work whatsoever, but the material issue with the timing chain guides did seem to be just a material issue (or perhaps a design flaw on the termination of the tensioner). That it only took JLR 2 years to resolve shows significantly better response than was experienced with other design flaws JLR have experienced!
I think we should be careful when comparing the engine issue to other vehicles and marques. My experience with Toyota Land Cruisers has been much poorer than perhaps yours has, with many major engine issues -- including a ceasing (and I am as mad about servicing as you are -- incidentally, I have only once had a Land Rover engine cease, and that was because the crank seal and the oil sensor failed at the same time on an old 2.25 series diesel). While the timing chain guide issue was clearly a bit of a problem between the 2010 and 2012 models, it was soon resolved and hasn't been an issue since!
You had 450,000 miles on a 2010-2012 Range Rover 5.0?
Yup, I do big miles every year (though I didn’t buy it new, it also had big miles on it when I bought it).
@@shedlock2000 Because you look after it. That's why it has big miles on it. I find that these Range rovers and also big Bmws are sometimes just neglected by the third or 4th owner. They expect them to be as cheap as a Cortina or Anglia to maintain! 🙂