I too wash surprised that baking soda was a bad choice, and how the pH buffer acted differently from the other methods. It will be interesting to see how adding more crushed oyster shells fair against pH buffers with higher capacities. Can we add too much? So much that it will affect flavor? Does one method provide a better flavor over another? So many questions to answer. Thanks for watching Ben.
I have not come across any negative effects from adding too much oyster shells. (Chicken scratch) I have also used Marble, long strips, drill a hole in them and hang them on the side inside the fermenter with a SS hook. They do not last very long in sugar washes (40-45 gallon washes) maybe 3 or 4 batches. "Pickling Lime" also raises the Ph. It's in the canning section of most super markets or box stores. I use it sparingly, adding only a tablespoon at a time into a quart jar with some wash, shake, the mix into the wash. The take a Ph reading. Repeat if necessary until the Ph hits 5.5. (This is also for 40-45 gallon washes) I use this process when I do not have oyster shells.
A handful tossed in (resting on bottom) will not be the same as a handful suspended. Always had better results with them "suspended" halfway down. (A "TILT" up top and a "TILT" just above the Bottom would shed light on what's going on temp & Ph wise.) Side note: Fantastic data my friend. Makes me want to add multiple ingredients to a ferment to control Ph... Which leads me to believe you are on to something: Starting Ph + OG ratio, multiplied by wash/mash volume = recipe of Ph controlling ingredients. Which is then most likely divided by Yeast, Nutrients, and the wildcard.... Temp.... ^^^ Would be a Helluva Algorithm or Killer App if solved. Cheers!
I'm going to play around with the capacity of the pH buffer to try and start with a pH of 6.0 and finish fermentation at a pH of 5.0. The idea being, have an acidic sugar wine (to suppress ammonia compounds), and adjust the pH on the collected low wines to a pH of 8 or 9 (to turn the ethyl acetate into ethanol) as per the book Designing & Building Automatic Stills. Adjusting the pH like this is supposed to suppress undesirables and increase yields when making vodka. Hopefully it all works :)
Thanks for the useful video. I have been making UJSSM inspired whiskeys with backset, leading to pH down to 2 and stalling fermentation. I have used baking sofa, but that can be a volcanic mess, and doesn’t keep the pH level. The garden store sells bags of crushed oyster shells, which have been helping. I probably need to use more.
Thanks, dude, very informative. Love your channel and looking forward to more. Just added some shells to my sugar wash - I live at the coast and collected some, boiled it and then added, 2 large mussel shells and 2 of the conical snail type shells.
That's awesome. Apparently eggs shells are 95% calcium carbonate so in theory they should work too. Or a chunk of marble lol. So many solutions for controlling pH.
Great stuff, one suggestion for experimentation use of multiple yeast strains to produce complex flavor profiles in a single mash by introducing a new strain once the previous stalls. Example given would be using a Belgium beer yeast known to produce fruity profiles initially, then using Dady or 1138 to finish the conversion.
I will be doing a yeast series, a nutrient series, and a recipe series in the future. I'm super interested in what dry malt extract and bran can do for sugar washes. I'll continue to concentrate on pH control until I'm satisfied I've found the best solution for what I want to accomplish and then I'll move onto other aspects of sugar wash fermentation. Thanks for watching!
higher order polynomials do not necessarily give a better fit - in fact they can give the wrong indications as your eyes will follow (believe) the line and miss the points themselves. The actual measure of fit is the R^2 value that spreadsheets will produce when they do the curve fit. This is the cumulative measure of how far each point is from the one estimated by the fitted curve and has value 0-1. For a "good" fit, you need an R^2 value > 0.9. Anything less than that indicates that the fitted curve does not represent the data. For each of the fitted curves, start with a quadratic and increase the power until R^2 >0.9. Ideally, > 0.98 for real world data to show a genuine trend. I think that if you do this analysis fr the first chart, especially the red line, you'll find a different set of curves for the highest R^2 value. Great video BTW and following the iSpindel videos as well!!
Thanks for the info. That's very interesting. There is going to be a fair amount of error when it comes to the cheap pH test strips I'm using and my interpretation of them. I'm not exactly using precision lab equipment and I sort of expect the data points to be a little "all over the place" ha ha. I can see what you mean in regards to the red line in the first chart, it goes higher at the end than it should. Same with the rate of change graph. That being said, hopefully, we can draw some general conclusions like baking soda is not a good choice when compared to other options. I've done another pH experiment since but it went afoul when I realized the starting gravities of the different batches were somehow not the same. I'll make sure that doesn't happen again. The whole reason I started down the road of the iSpindel was to make fermentation experiments easier because it's a major hassle to take gravity readings each day and it wastes a good amount of product. Thanks for watching Pat, hopefully, the home distilling community can get more data and they can make their own call on what's the best way to control pH for sugar washes. If you are open to it, I would like to send you over my future experimental data and get your opinion on the best way to present it. It's been probably 15 years since I was in college physics and chemistry class but you sound like you have a good handle on it.
Nice data! Have you consider temperatures? I would be curious to taste the difference at stripping and spirit run. Can’t wait to heard about your next topic. I’m all about production rates and all my friends are saying it’s the best shine they ever tasted.I hope you’re enjoying your experience with friends! Cheer and don’t give up your channel will skyrocket soon! Cheers 🍻
I have considered temperature. It's hot in my apartment right now (the storage locker is hot too) and I have the pieces to construct a temp controlled fermentation vessel. I am going to make it my first Raspberry Pi video. I think a few more rounds of pH control and I'll be ready to move onto other aspects of fermenting sugar washes. I'm super interested in how much nutrient I can add without affecting the flavor of the final spirit. I also want to grab a Turbo Yeast package as I keep hearing so many opinions about it but have never tried it before.
I remember seeing these a while back. They are pretty expensive but also pretty awesome. I see that some people are building iSpindels for like $50. Building an iSpindel might be a fun project! An automated way to monitor fermentation would be the preferable way.
@@1FrenchConnection1 You inspired me! I bought the parts from China last night to make a quantity of 5 iSpindles (I have to buy the PCBs in a pack of 5). The cost of making 5 iSpindles is less than the cost of buying one TILT hydrometer. It will take about 2 months for the parts to arrive but expect a video this fall/winter on how to construct an iSpindle from parts bought on the internet :)
Thanks for watching. Sugar washes are very different from fermenting grains. I've made beer for years and never had to think about pH once. Happy Distilling!
Can't remember as it was more than a year ago, but the idea behind the buffer is that it would stay in the boiler during distillation and not affect the final spirit. I'm going to be doing more pH experiments once I get all my iSpindels sorted. Thanks for watching. Cheers!
4:45 you say you put the oster chell in to the pH controler! Is thet meen the pH controls did not work as you wanted? Or what tou meed by slugish fermentation?
i read somewhere that the yeast might not like sodium. dont have any sources. but if thats case, i wonder how potassium citrate would perform against sodium citrate?
Yes, sodium is not good for yeast as it can pull water from inside the yeast cell out. How much is bad? I duno. Salt is a common ingredient in baking bread and there are lots of articles online about salt, yeast, and bread baking. I suppose adding table salt with equivalent sodium as the buffer to a batch and no sodium to another batch may provide some insight? So many experiments :) Thanks for watching.
@@OpenSourceDistilling good point. By the way, huge thanks to you!! I had problems with sugar washes (wineos) stalling at 1025 on day 16.... Switched to birdwatchers, followed the advice of your experiment: went for a walk on the beach, found some oyster shells, cleaned em (6 halves for 27 L) and chucked them in. 1070 birdwatchers fermed dry in 4 days at 33 celcius !
Why does your fermentation takes so long? My sugar wash takes max 6 days to reach .999 from 1.080. I use birdwatchers recipy. Starting ph level at 5.5.
True dat. My all grain beers ferment way faster. Send over your recipe and/or recipe calculator. I'm going to be doing more recipe comparisons as soon as I get my iSpindels all tied into each other. I'm interested in bran additions.
Did the wash to which you added bicarbonate of soda ferment to completion? I recently added some to correct a very low (2.8) PH (brought it up to 4,2) but a day after and it seems my fermentation stopped completely. Specific gravity started at 1.080 and is now at 1.030 and the wash still tastes a little sweet. I used Coobra turbo 48, 100l water and 35kg sugar. It’s a lot of sugar but from what I see the yeast can handle it over a longer period. Question is, do you think it’s the bicarb and how can Infix it? Cheers
Once baking soda is in there you won't be able to get it out. I don't fully understand all the reasons baking soda is bad, but adding shells (any shell) or a buffer solution seem to be the best options. I heard adding marble (the rock) can work. If the fermentation is stuck I would test the pH again, add crushed shells, add more hydrated yeast. Cross your fingers.
@@OpenSourceDistilling I know this is old now and I could be totally wrong, but I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere that when adding baking soda to some washes to raise the pH can actually create more problems because of the acidity of the wash. It begins creating CO2, which we already know the yeast are doing when fermenting the sugars. So now you have more CO2 being put into the wash from the soda and basically stalling out fermentation. If you were degassing during fermentation, without introducing oxygen, you would probably be fine.
@@OpenSourceDistilling Very nice. Loved this video, great to see someone with a scientific approach to the hobby. It's easy for me to control temps living in the irish temperate climate, all I need to do is throw in an aquarium heater.
@@suckinDiesel44 Thanks. It’s so much easier to add heat than take it away! Lucky you 😊 I’ve got my prototype up and running for the first time tonight, for my 6 gallon temp controlled fermentation vessel. I’m using a Raspberry Pi computer to control a pump that circulates cold water from a keg in my beer fridge through a stainless steel coil in a fermenter bucket sitting outside the fridge. Seems to be working! Sitting at a steady 16 C for some hard cider. Do you find that fermentation temperature affects flavor? I keep hearing that lower fermentation temps produce fewer off flavors.
@@suckinDiesel44 Hey Mike. I've completed my second round tests with a homemade 6 gallon temp controlled fermentation vessel. Hopefully, we'll have some fermentation temp controlled videos soon.
![Tee Grizzley - Robbery 8 [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/34_vkNV6wrU/mqdefault.jpg)
Awesome video! Surprising eye-opening results. Thank you for your time and effort.
I too wash surprised that baking soda was a bad choice, and how the pH buffer acted differently from the other methods. It will be interesting to see how adding more crushed oyster shells fair against pH buffers with higher capacities. Can we add too much? So much that it will affect flavor? Does one method provide a better flavor over another? So many questions to answer. Thanks for watching Ben.
I have not come across any negative effects from adding too much oyster shells. (Chicken scratch)
I have also used Marble, long strips, drill a hole in them and hang them on the side inside the fermenter with a SS hook. They do not last very long in sugar washes (40-45 gallon washes) maybe 3 or 4 batches.
"Pickling Lime" also raises the Ph. It's in the canning section of most super markets or box stores. I use it sparingly, adding only a tablespoon at a time into a quart jar with some wash, shake, the mix into the wash. The take a Ph reading. Repeat if necessary until the Ph hits 5.5. (This is also for 40-45 gallon washes) I use this process when I do not have oyster shells.
Thanks for the input Big Ed. Definitely going to try more oyster shells that are crushed next time.
A handful tossed in (resting on bottom) will not be the same as a handful suspended. Always had better results with them "suspended" halfway down. (A "TILT" up top and a "TILT" just above the Bottom would shed light on what's going on temp & Ph wise.)
Side note: Fantastic data my friend. Makes me want to add multiple ingredients to a ferment to control Ph...
Which leads me to believe you are on to something: Starting Ph + OG ratio, multiplied by wash/mash volume = recipe of Ph controlling ingredients. Which is then most likely divided by Yeast, Nutrients, and the wildcard.... Temp....
^^^ Would be a Helluva Algorithm or Killer App if solved. Cheers!
I'm going to play around with the capacity of the pH buffer to try and start with a pH of 6.0 and finish fermentation at a pH of 5.0. The idea being, have an acidic sugar wine (to suppress ammonia compounds), and adjust the pH on the collected low wines to a pH of 8 or 9 (to turn the ethyl acetate into ethanol) as per the book Designing & Building Automatic Stills. Adjusting the pH like this is supposed to suppress undesirables and increase yields when making vodka. Hopefully it all works :)
Like your approach, content and “storytelling”. Best distilling channel I’ve found. Keep up the good work.
Appreciate the feedback. Thanks for watching :)
Thanks for the useful video. I have been making UJSSM inspired whiskeys with backset, leading to pH down to 2 and stalling fermentation. I have used baking sofa, but that can be a volcanic mess, and doesn’t keep the pH level. The garden store sells bags of crushed oyster shells, which have been helping. I probably need to use more.
Thanks, dude, very informative. Love your channel and looking forward to more. Just added some shells to my sugar wash - I live at the coast and collected some, boiled it and then added, 2 large mussel shells and 2 of the conical snail type shells.
That's awesome. Apparently eggs shells are 95% calcium carbonate so in theory they should work too. Or a chunk of marble lol. So many solutions for controlling pH.
Great stuff, one suggestion for experimentation use of multiple yeast strains to produce complex flavor profiles in a single mash by introducing a new strain once the previous stalls. Example given would be using a Belgium beer yeast known to produce fruity profiles initially, then using Dady or 1138 to finish the conversion.
I will be doing a yeast series, a nutrient series, and a recipe series in the future. I'm super interested in what dry malt extract and bran can do for sugar washes. I'll continue to concentrate on pH control until I'm satisfied I've found the best solution for what I want to accomplish and then I'll move onto other aspects of sugar wash fermentation. Thanks for watching!
Brilliant! Thanks for the info.
Thanks for watching :)
higher order polynomials do not necessarily give a better fit - in fact they can give the wrong indications as your eyes will follow (believe) the line and miss the points themselves. The actual measure of fit is the R^2 value that spreadsheets will produce when they do the curve fit. This is the cumulative measure of how far each point is from the one estimated by the fitted curve and has value 0-1. For a "good" fit, you need an R^2 value > 0.9. Anything less than that indicates that the fitted curve does not represent the data. For each of the fitted curves, start with a quadratic and increase the power until R^2 >0.9. Ideally, > 0.98 for real world data to show a genuine trend. I think that if you do this analysis fr the first chart, especially the red line, you'll find a different set of curves for the highest R^2 value. Great video BTW and following the iSpindel videos as well!!
Thanks for the info. That's very interesting. There is going to be a fair amount of error when it comes to the cheap pH test strips I'm using and my interpretation of them. I'm not exactly using precision lab equipment and I sort of expect the data points to be a little "all over the place" ha ha. I can see what you mean in regards to the red line in the first chart, it goes higher at the end than it should. Same with the rate of change graph. That being said, hopefully, we can draw some general conclusions like baking soda is not a good choice when compared to other options. I've done another pH experiment since but it went afoul when I realized the starting gravities of the different batches were somehow not the same. I'll make sure that doesn't happen again. The whole reason I started down the road of the iSpindel was to make fermentation experiments easier because it's a major hassle to take gravity readings each day and it wastes a good amount of product. Thanks for watching Pat, hopefully, the home distilling community can get more data and they can make their own call on what's the best way to control pH for sugar washes. If you are open to it, I would like to send you over my future experimental data and get your opinion on the best way to present it. It's been probably 15 years since I was in college physics and chemistry class but you sound like you have a good handle on it.
Nice data! Have you consider temperatures? I would be curious to taste the difference at stripping and spirit run. Can’t wait to heard about your next topic. I’m all about production rates and all my friends are saying it’s the best shine they ever tasted.I hope you’re enjoying your experience with friends! Cheer and don’t give up your channel will skyrocket soon! Cheers 🍻
I have considered temperature. It's hot in my apartment right now (the storage locker is hot too) and I have the pieces to construct a temp controlled fermentation vessel. I am going to make it my first Raspberry Pi video. I think a few more rounds of pH control and I'll be ready to move onto other aspects of fermenting sugar washes. I'm super interested in how much nutrient I can add without affecting the flavor of the final spirit. I also want to grab a Turbo Yeast package as I keep hearing so many opinions about it but have never tried it before.
Great! have you consider TILT hydrometer readers. That would be easier on you.
I remember seeing these a while back. They are pretty expensive but also pretty awesome. I see that some people are building iSpindels for like $50. Building an iSpindel might be a fun project! An automated way to monitor fermentation would be the preferable way.
www.ispindel.de/docs/README_en.html
@@1FrenchConnection1 You inspired me! I bought the parts from China last night to make a quantity of 5 iSpindles (I have to buy the PCBs in a pack of 5). The cost of making 5 iSpindles is less than the cost of buying one TILT hydrometer. It will take about 2 months for the parts to arrive but expect a video this fall/winter on how to construct an iSpindle from parts bought on the internet :)
Thanks for the info.
interesting
Thanks for watching. Sugar washes are very different from fermenting grains. I've made beer for years and never had to think about pH once. Happy Distilling!
Great experiment, were there any differences in flavour between the buffer and oyster shells?
Can't remember as it was more than a year ago, but the idea behind the buffer is that it would stay in the boiler during distillation and not affect the final spirit. I'm going to be doing more pH experiments once I get all my iSpindels sorted. Thanks for watching. Cheers!
4:45 you say you put the oster chell in to the pH controler! Is thet meen the pH controls did not work as you wanted?
Or what tou meed by slugish fermentation?
I saw the fermentation was so slow I wanted to speed it up. I couldn't wait any longer :)
i read somewhere that the yeast might not like sodium. dont have any sources. but if thats case, i wonder how potassium citrate would perform against sodium citrate?
Yes, sodium is not good for yeast as it can pull water from inside the yeast cell out. How much is bad? I duno. Salt is a common ingredient in baking bread and there are lots of articles online about salt, yeast, and bread baking. I suppose adding table salt with equivalent sodium as the buffer to a batch and no sodium to another batch may provide some insight? So many experiments :) Thanks for watching.
@@OpenSourceDistilling good point. By the way, huge thanks to you!! I had problems with sugar washes (wineos) stalling at 1025 on day 16.... Switched to birdwatchers, followed the advice of your experiment: went for a walk on the beach, found some oyster shells, cleaned em (6 halves for 27 L) and chucked them in. 1070 birdwatchers fermed dry in 4 days at 33 celcius !
@@tigerlilly3727 Yeah it kinda crazy because the solution (adding oyster shells) just seems plain weird! Glad it all worked out! Happy fermenting :)
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Welcome!
Can vinegar be used to lower ph?
Why does your fermentation takes so long? My sugar wash takes max 6 days to reach .999 from 1.080. I use birdwatchers recipy. Starting ph level at 5.5.
True dat. My all grain beers ferment way faster. Send over your recipe and/or recipe calculator. I'm going to be doing more recipe comparisons as soon as I get my iSpindels all tied into each other. I'm interested in bran additions.
@@OpenSourceDistilling search" birdwarchers sugar wash." Its n small program....not a app. Will try and sent it
@@OpenSourceDistilling birdwatchers.info/calculator/
👍
Thanks for your advice and thanks for watching Charlie :)
Did the wash to which you added bicarbonate of soda ferment to completion? I recently added some to correct a very low (2.8) PH (brought it up to 4,2) but a day after and it seems my fermentation stopped completely. Specific gravity started at 1.080 and is now at 1.030 and the wash still tastes a little sweet. I used Coobra turbo 48, 100l water and 35kg sugar. It’s a lot of sugar but from what I see the yeast can handle it over a longer period. Question is, do you think it’s the bicarb and how can Infix it?
Cheers
Once baking soda is in there you won't be able to get it out. I don't fully understand all the reasons baking soda is bad, but adding shells (any shell) or a buffer solution seem to be the best options. I heard adding marble (the rock) can work. If the fermentation is stuck I would test the pH again, add crushed shells, add more hydrated yeast. Cross your fingers.
@@OpenSourceDistilling I know this is old now and I could be totally wrong, but I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere that when adding baking soda to some washes to raise the pH can actually create more problems because of the acidity of the wash. It begins creating CO2, which we already know the yeast are doing when fermenting the sugars. So now you have more CO2 being put into the wash from the soda and basically stalling out fermentation. If you were degassing during fermentation, without introducing oxygen, you would probably be fine.
What temperature were these all fermented at?
Around 27 C. Currently working on a temp controlled fermentation vessel.
@@OpenSourceDistilling Very nice. Loved this video, great to see someone with a scientific approach to the hobby. It's easy for me to control temps living in the irish temperate climate, all I need to do is throw in an aquarium heater.
@@suckinDiesel44 Thanks. It’s so much easier to add heat than take it away! Lucky you 😊 I’ve got my prototype up and running for the first time tonight, for my 6 gallon temp controlled fermentation vessel. I’m using a Raspberry Pi computer to control a pump that circulates cold water from a keg in my beer fridge through a stainless steel coil in a fermenter bucket sitting outside the fridge. Seems to be working! Sitting at a steady 16 C for some hard cider. Do you find that fermentation temperature affects flavor? I keep hearing that lower fermentation temps produce fewer off flavors.
@@suckinDiesel44 Hey Mike. I've completed my second round tests with a homemade 6 gallon temp controlled fermentation vessel. Hopefully, we'll have some fermentation temp controlled videos soon.