I think that it's clear from the books that in order to be a supreme leader, one must become a monster. In the recent movie I thought I saw a scene where I interpreted it as Paul taking a kinder approach to the Fremen and not killing the one he was dueling, thus becoming friends with that one. But in the end he did not choose that version of the future. In using his precognitive ability and always choosing the optimal outcome he always justified the means with the ends, and then his honorable upbringing, even his humanity, meant nothing as he transformed into a calculating machine that snuffed out billions of lives for a bright future that only he can see.
And then stayed away from the "Golden path" that is the only scenario that let humanity survive for the comfort of his marital life with Chani, thus letting the duty rest on his son's shoulders to take that "become a monster to save the future" approach to the most extreme. If you haven't read books three and going on, you should.
That's the warning of charismatic leaders. Which is why I am able to see nobility in Baron Harkonnen. He didn't see himself as the unfeeling monster he was. He was defending his family. It's also the reason I've seen Paul as a whimp. As he constantly struggles with the brutality of life on Dune
@@TomFromMars That is what makes them both appealing and repellent. And the reason they're so deadly. They're nobody's pawn. Even if they get manipulated. Their appeal is their vices. Which they don't apologize for. Where other villains can be shamed a Harkonnen embraces his flaws and vices. Uses them to full advantage.
When I first served in Iraq I constantly thought of Dune. I even re-read the books during my down time for the third time in my life. I was in the middle of what was called to Sunni triangle and the word "jihad" would be used daily when talking with the village elders and the local population. That being said, the Zen-Sunni warriors of Arrakis, the Fremen should use the word that their ancestors used in reference to any warrior fighting in the name of God.
Thank you for your service! As for Dune I would say that there are a lot of parallels between the rise of Paul Muad’ib and Muhammad, the most obvious being massive jihad being fought in both of their names and the vast expanses that both conquered.
@Broskisnowski He wasn't right about AH though, who is the most lied about leader in history. I can't find anything wrong with what he actually said or did.
Leto realized the sad truth - he had to sacrifice any of the humanity he had left, becoming the greatest scumbag ever lived and worst tyrant in human history, to insure humanity would never again rely on the charisma of heroes while he simultaneously evolved humanity so that could not be controlled by prescient elitests.
One of my unforgettable moments in Dune Messiah (where Paul's jihad was intricately explained), was of a Fedaykin's first time seeing the sea. The setting which was a sunset, seemed surreal to the Fedaykin; he then drank the salty water which the others shunned him for. I imagine that scene every time and hope that Villenueve would adapt it. *correct me if I'm wrong, if it really was sunset or not
If you want something close to that look for "Bobbie Draper seeing the sea", from the Expanse, she was a martian human that always dreamed to se one in person
Nicely put together as always Nerd Cookies. I believe another one more crucial event that solidified the Jihad and Paul's fury against House Harkonen, The Sarduakar and the Emperor was the death of his son newborn son in the first book.
I always liked the fact that Herbert spent so much time on what happens when we turn a charismatic leader into some messianic figure. I also like the fact that we see Paul laments over what he has to do to save humanity. It does make you wonder knowing what has to be done to save humanity is any one person even capable of such a choice. I've always found out one of the most thought-provoking elements of the series.
I agree, and to me one of the most thought provoking elements of 'Dune' is how helpless Paul was, in spite of all his power...He is KH. Mentat, the most powerful Emperor in the history of the universe, and still feels helpless...a forced witness to events that only he can see coming...less than a puppet on a string, Paul is a bound and passive observer....Paul has no free will...from the beginning he was the result of someone else's plan (the BG), someone else's counter plan (Jessica), and he is carried along by the waves and the machinations created by others (the Emperor and his own father, how he ended up on Arrakis in the first place)....all this is interesting and very topical imo....because a scientist recently concluded in a study that 'free will' is a myth...that all humans act and react in ways that are more or less predetermined: by circumstance, conditioning, internal chemical reactions, temperament, etc.
@@koko40800Of course, Paul has free will. Free will doesn't mean you can do whatever you like but that you can choose between two or more options or even to do or not to do something.
@@ryansauchuk7290 So he did make the choice. "To the future is to be trapped by it" assumes that there is just this one possible future and not a whole range of futures you can influence by your choices.
I was serving in Afghanistan when I read Dune for the first time. I'd always wanted to check it out, but it suddenly seemed somehow appropriate when I was in the Middle East. I got all the way through God Emperor of Dune by the end of my orders. Herbert's take on religion was brilliant, showing the inherent danger of taking advantage of religious fervor, and trying to control a jihad, as we had done in Afghanistan back in the 80s. In the 2000s, we were reaping the whirlwind that we had created.
Honestly that's quite eye opening. The USA and CIA planted seeds ofJihad in Afghanistan against the Soviets back in the day, and unleashed an ideology of separatism and rebellion across the middle east as the leaders of the mujahideen spilled over and spread their political movements. The local population also gets enticed by the promise of former glory of the caliphate days, something they've long lost since the fall of the turks at the end of ww1. All these issues, Herbert talked about at some point or another in the series. The man was a visionary, and I'm saying thus from a muslin perspective who's reflected on my communities reaction to modernity and the fall of the 'glory days as well as how religion is always used to rile up the population (Malaysian politics is full of it), he hit the nail right on the head basically.
It was interesting seeing Pauls vision which had Fremen warriors on Caladan his homeworld. Those that read the books know that during and after the Jihad, Lady Jessica forbade Fremen from going to Caladan even for religious pilgrimages.
I saw that as a variation of the future jihad where Paul didn’t have Jessica in his corner and as the Fremen reverend mother and he also probably longed to return home but didn’t realize it come at the cost of a galactic genocide
I think the timeskip in the films will be much shorter than the books which might change a lot of the story, and hopefully we'll see more of the jihad. The implication of that scene was that there was a battle for Caladan, maybe in the movies Caladan was bestowed to another great house after the fall of Atreides, and Paul will have to fight to retake it during the Jihad?
@@theswagman1263in the novels Count Hasimir Fenring and Lady Margot were given fief of Canadian until Paul took the throne. Then Gurney and Jessica returned, betrothed to each other and ruled it while Paul ran the Imperium
Having read and reread the many books of Dune, I like to point out that Paul Muad'dib's Jihad as we call it. Was merely him exacting revenge on the Harkonnen's and the Emperor of the Known Universe. In many ways, Paul was the victim over and over, throughout the Dune saga. At first, he was avenging the deaths of the Army of the Atreides, then of his father Duke Leto, then the death of his first-born son Leto II. In each machination, Paul was presented with two options, both destructive and violent. By the end of Dune Messiah, Paul while a ruler of Arrakis, was torn apart with grief for what was done in his name, but he couldn't find an effective way to make amends for his past self. That, I think, is the truest lesson of Dune; as Frank Herbert, used the story as a way to say beware of charismatic leaders. We've seen throughout our own history that leaders who appear to be Charismatic, often hid terrible purposes in the things they use to bring about "the greater good."
Great video. Paul story is a powerful tragedy and a cautionary tale against charismatic leaders. As said in the novel, no more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero.
Fantastic as always, thank you. It has always been my opinion that Paul did not know the inevitability of the Jihad until he took the water of life. Before then he saw glimpses but still thought he could overt the worst of it. This is cautionary tale to not put too much faith in a charismatic leader, especially when politics and religion have their lines blurred. A cult of personality will inevitable have the members believe they have a monopoly on the truth and believe that it is in fact everyone else who has been brainwashed and in a cult. When reason has been bypassed by the many great harm can be done in name of what is perceived as Truth. "When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late." - Frank Herbert, 'Dune'.
He don't know it's inevitable until too late but he knows since the start that by assuming this messianic role among Fremen to manipulate them, in order to use their fervor to fight his ennemies, the risk is there.
There was one line in Dune Messiah describing the jihad that really struck me when I first read it. I forget the exact words, but it left me with the impression that the jihad had devolved into a mere bureaucratic process. That Paul's government continued the jihad only because it had always done so. Frightening stuff.
Hopefully the word "jihad" is used instead of crusade in Dune Part 2. Also, it would be cool if the beginning of the jihad is shown at the end of the movie. Can't wait for it to come out!
It's a shame that the closest they got in the first one is "holy war." Because say what you will, "jihad" sounds so much cooler than what they went with, especially combined with this very otherworldly sci-fi setting
I always thought crusade had a meaning linked to the discoveries the know-how and new knowledge that the crusaders brought back with them from contact with the middle east.. effects their experiences had on society when they returned. In that sense it fits with Dune eg Dune Messiah has effects on the Fremen.. Farok finding his sea, etc, often negative effects.. plus crusade conjures a medieval image of banners and a kind of supposed chivalry, a myth I know but does fit with the feudal basis of the world of Dune up to 10,191AG.
I always thought that Paul choosing the jihad over any of the other options was the most salvageable to mankind. Meaning, reconciling with his uncle would have been an even more disastrous move, emotion aside.
@@CastragroupEverything occurred in the way it did to pave the way for the God Emperor. Paul’s Jihad needed to happen in order to destroy the current standing of the known universe.
Now _that's_ a synopsis, y'all. Excellent (again), Ms Nerd Cookies. Compliments on your editing the text down from what I imagine was a much larger work. Your voice and the smoothing done in post are spot on.
I honestly feel like this topic didn't have enough fleshing out. We're TOLD that it's happening, but never really shown what these supposedly brutal wars look like. How did the fremen take over so many planets? What were the great battles of the war? I think its a huge missed opportunity, or at least ripe ground for exploration by Brian Herbert.
No, it's not a missed opportunity because this isn't a Star Wars series about cool wars and battles and action scenes. The whole point of the jihad from a writing perspective was to flesh out Paul's character. Besides, some things are more powerful when left to the imagination, rather than ruin the whole mystery by spoonfeeding us every detail of what happened.
@@DG-gx4sg I see what you are saying but I strongly disagree. It is an opportunity for fleshing out. A war like this is extremely fertile ground for interesting narratives.
Herbert story is not about Jihad's battles. It's about Paul's inner struggle against his terrible purpose. This is the important part of the story - the choice he makes provoking the Jihad in first novel and the struggle with the consequences (and his try to find an exit) in Messiah. To tell this story, there is no point to show Jihad's battles in detail.
Well, I think we have many real life examples of what it would look like, for instance: Mao China, Stalin Russia, Hitler Germany, Christian crusades, the Islamic expansion, and many more.
If you ever opened a bakery called nerd cookies for people to sit down and chat about nerd lore, I would be a loyal customer . But for now I'll just keep coming back to your awesome RUclips channel .
After reading the children of dune a couple times, it became apparent to me that Paul actually had the choice that Leto did. Become the worm. Become the real god, save humanity from itself. But that in the end Paul was too selfish or cowardly to accept the fate that Leto did, not as the living god emperor, but as the semi conscious soul in a million worms for a million years. This cowardice/selfishness ended making things worse in the end as Leto even says his path is worse than what Paul saw. We also see in Messiah that Paul was fairly inept in his leadership and bemoaned his god status more than actually doing anything about it. These inactions led to his sister's demise. In the end to me Paul was clearly out of his depth once he achieved the throne and was simply overwhelmed with his own abilities to the point of inaction.
I kind of agree and disagree. Paul DID have the same choice before him that Leto II did: Become the worm to save humanity. I kind of have a hard time seeing him as a coward for specifically that choice though. Making the choice was more of a testament to Letos bravery than it was a black mark on Paul. I honestly can't think of what would be a more hellish thing to endure than immortality and the choice to integrate with the sandworm meant that whomever did it was going to have to say alive for several thousand years and stay focused and resolute the entire time. I honestly have a hard time imagining that Paul would have remained sane if he'd tried. You're right though about Paul being in over his head with the whole "God-head of the empire" role he was in. To be fair, he didn't WANT a religious jihad that would soak every world of the empire in blood, but he didn't really try to stop it either. Instead he just adopted a stance of wearied resignation to the whole debacle, even before it had happened.
@@thundercricket4634 Good points. We did see that Paul was hesitant to accept the jihad, but realized it would happen with or without him eventually. What we also see is that if he had fully embraced it he could have steered it better and possibly even saved billions of lives. There's no doubt Leto II was stronger and braver than his father for making the choice of being the worm. But we also see that Paul continuously chose the easy path for himself, even his last path as the preacher was his easiest choice.
I continue to believe the "Golden Path" was never truly necessary. If Paul and Leto II could have accepted futures where the did not rule, so many more possible futures would have opened up to them...
I understand why Thufir Hawat had such a low opinion of the Bene Gesserit. They were responsible for all this through their "religious engineering" and selective breeding program. Paul can't be blamed, he was destiny bound to do this as was his son. They were the ones who effectively killed 50 billion people
Let's not absolve the Fremen from responsibility either. They were the ones that "effectively" killed 60 billion people. and that's just under Paul. Leto II killed many more in his 3,000-year reign.
@@str.77thank you, I understand the narrative of the oppressed indigenous people finally rebelling and claiming their independence again from sovereign forces…BUT they didn’t stop there. Did there need to be an endless bloodbath across the galaxy for a little over a decade in Paul’s reign?
@@DirByHasan No, of course not. But that was partially due to the Fremen's own, let's say, ideology as well as the fact that their rebellion brought them in conflict with the Emperor. That could have been settled by Paul becoming Emperor but IIRC not all Great Houses accepted that.
I hope the movie will emphasize the point that Paul COULD have chosen peace between his house and house Harkonnen, and that it was his unwillingness to let go of hatred that caused him not to choose that path. It's by far the most damning aspect of Paul, and I feel it should be there in order to drive the point home that you shouldn't trust charismatic leaders to always be right.
It's the case at the very end of the Villeneuve's movie. When Jessica wants to quit Arrakis, Paul stop her and say "My road lead into the desert". This is the moment of the choice in the movie version of the story: the moment Paul choose to use this desert power knowing he risk to awake a force he cannot control, leading to his terrible purpose. In the novel, the moment of the choice is earlier (in the tent chapter, where Paul consider to quit the planet and became a Guild's Navigator) but it's the same choice.
My theory as to why the reconciliation timeline didn't happen was either because Vladamir and Shadam wanted the Atreides dead for being jealous, salty bitches or the fact Jessica gave Leto a son instead of a daughter, thereby fulfilling the goal of the Bene Gesirate.
Well Paul did make a choice. Reconciliation was an option to avoid the Jihad. Paul knows very well that by going to the Fremen, using their desert power in his family feud, that he will probably provokes a bloody Jihad, thousands of time worst than Harkonnen or Shadam's oppression. The real main conflict of Paul story's arc is not Atreides vs Harkonnen, it's Paul vs his terrible purpose. Paul failed to see that and his story is a powerful tragedy because of that.
Another great video. I can't help think of the quote "humans are never more serious than when at play". Contrast the exploration of concepts and ideas here with any "serious" news or tv program.
Hey cookie I'm a big fan of everything you do! And I'm a Huge fan of Dune I even got my Dad into it. Keep up the good work. And remember fear is the mind-killer😎
Great work and video as usual! Even it is a little difficult for me to perfectly understand all of your reflexions about this huge saga, your eloquence and calm way of speech help a lot... A nerd waffle from Belgium. P.S.: Sorry for my bad english:/
I think Paul was already on top od a powderkeg of repressed people across the universe created over 10,000 years. What occurred tragic but tame compared to what could have happenned. But Pail was hit by it too fast for him to have taken the steps his song was rwady to take
I only just realized I came across more harsh in my previous comments. I didn't explain thoroughly that at the beginning Paul had only theoretical knowledge of the scope of the politics of the empire. It was Duke Leto's murder that transformed Paul. And the teachers of Paul were the ones who allowed him to avoid being the pawn the Bene Gesserit want him to be. That's the struggle I refer to as Paul manning up.
Great informative video as always. I didn't recognize your notification at first with the new avatar but I'll get used to but I do miss the cookie avatar, it immediately said you. 👍🍪🥛😋
While Herbert's themes in the first few books revolve around the problems with Paul and his chosen path, it must be pointed out that Paul felt this was the lesser evil of the courses put before him due to prescience. And only with a much more harsh and authoritarian government as prescribed by the Golden Path did humanity ensure its survival. Leto II killed many more people than Paul's jihad. At least that is how I interpreted the line "Your Jihad will be a summer picnic on Caladaan in comparison.". It could be said that this was in reference to The Shattering, but I always felt this was part of the discussion about the rule of each Atreides. Anyway, I could never tell if he was changing his mind about authoritarian rule or if he was saying that sometimes it is the pain that defines the past and creates the future. I love that I will probably never fully understand these books even after several rereads.
Great topic, but I am not sure it is clear to me yet. Why couldn’t Paul stop it? Surely he has power to control who left Arrakis and where they went. The fremen still needed to use the guild. What was worse than the jihad that meant he had to let it (mostly) play out? Was is a stagnation threat like good path had to avoid? Sorry but I still don’t understand.
Paul could not stop the Jihad anymore after he took the throne. To take the throne, Paul needed the fighting fervor of the Fremen and he still need Fremen support to keep his throne. To keep control over the Fremen, he need to continue to acts as their messiah, meaning that he must lead the Jihad. If he tried at this point to oppose the Jihad, we can presume that he would have been killed by some external enemy or some fanatical Fremen and the Jihad (in a probably bloodier form) would have proceed anyway in the name of Muad'Dib the martyr. This is crystal clear by the end of the first novel: Paul sees no path avoiding the Jihad at this point, and the Fremen would have launched it, with or without him. Remember that at the end of the first novel, the Fremen control Arrakis and they know how to destroy the spice, thanks to their messiah, so they can control the Guild, with or without Paul alive. For Paul, the only way to stop the Jihad would have be to not pretend to be the Fremen messiah in first place. But Paul wants to get this desert power to avenge his family. Doing so he awaked a force that he can't control or stop. Religious fanaticism is a very dangerous political tool... And Paul trapped himself in a very dark tragic place, right into the terrible purpose that he fears since the beginning of the book.
Nice one. Sometimes I like lore videos as much as the literature itself. The Rememberencer did one on my favorite of the favorites warhammer character yesterday. Its an ace video so you might pick up some lore vid tips, plus he has a wicked good story too. Ayonid Thele the character's name was. He's the only guy on youtube to do a proper vid on the character. Anyway thanks again for the vids. They are tops.
It’s strange though, bc Leto II actually ends up saving humanity from an extinction event in God Emperor of Dune. So…if we consider this, Paul Atreides was a necessary evil to arrive at the Golden Path. So he HAD TO do the things he did.
For Paul Atreid, Muatdeep's jihad was another box of pain. If he truly was for humanity, or if he wanted to avoid those many vain sacrifices, he should have met Shai Hulud in the desert as described above. But in the end, by sprinkling the seeds sown by the protection missionaries to survive and scattering Fremen, the 'dragon's tooth', throughout the universe, Paul is putting his hand into another box of pain. The universe is constantly testing through his throne whether he is a beast of prophecy or a man who will sacrifice a hand (here his kingdom and name) for his freedom. This was a great pain and test for Paul, who would become obsessed with the prophecy, and almost surrendered in order to save his love, Chani Kynes. However, at this very moment, a new Kwisatz Haderach that was not in the prophecy, Leto II, who was obscured from the prophetic eyes of his father Paul, another Kwisatz Haderach, intervened beyond time. As a result, he rejects the road of tyrants; the golden road. The path of this benevolent tyrant is the fate of the men of the Atreid family, but as a king, he loves his subjects and the subjects support him, but in the end, they have no choice but to meet a tragic end. This road is directly in contact with the 'male godmother' Kwisatz Haderach, who can see even the memories of men, and in return, Kwisatz Haderach takes on the 'Golden Road' that will save mankind from the trap of stagnation that will kill mankind. to bear the burden of knowing For this Golden Path, Kwisatz Haderach becomes another Shaihulud, redeeming mankind and forcing them to walk on a well-prepared path of oppression, while explosively destroying mankind who will not be defeated by Kwisatz Haderach, who will not succumb to prophecies and future times. It is necessary to nurture them so that they will never again suffer from the tyranny of stagnation and the tyranny of prophecy. And the painful fact is that the Emperor Kwisatz Haderach, who has to carry out the task himself, must be the object of hatred by all mankind.
I cant help but think that Leto II had some kind of distant temporal influence on why the Jihad happened in the first place. We know that Leto II put humanity on the golden path, and that ultimately ends up with us being well armed to defend against Kralizec if and when that time was to occur. Paul knew about the golden path but didn't have the stamina or will to see it though. Paul was unfortunately a failed messiah. He created the beginnings of change towards the golden path, but he didn't finish the job. The fact this messiah did fail is something that I think Frank Herbert would have been happy with, or even deliberately intended to write to fit the trope of him wanting to warn us about these charismatic/messianic leaders.
How could the Fremen leave their home system given that they would need transport via the Guild? Is there something I missed about the Guild possibly joining the Fremen or capitulating to Paul's demands out of panic? Seems that is a big hole in the plot.
The one who controls the spice controls the universe. The spacing guild doesn't really care about who is sitting in the throne. They only care about who controls the spice which is Paul. Also don't forget that Paul had the emperor's banner which technically gives him access to all of shaddam's disposals.
Paul threatened to destroy all spice fields on Arrakis. This was a threat seen to be genuined by both the Reverend Mother Mohiam and the Spacing guild representatives since the Bene Gesserit can read lies and the spacing guild has low level future vision. Thus the guild completely obeyed Paul and thus implying that everyone else got cut off from interstellar transport.
Paul saw Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen Naib to a creature of the Lisan-al-Gaib. Its a quote from the 2nd or 3rd book if i remember correctly. I think Paul didnt like what happened with the jihad and the fremen
For sure Paul didn't likes this, this is the realization of the terrible purpose he wanted to avoid... But it's also the price to pay for using the Fremen to fight his family's enemies, the tragic consequence of the choice he made by assuming this messianic role.
These books are an excellent depiction of how dangerous control(religion government police) over others has always been. Very seldom does it work out well.
I didnt take the second side of the visions the same way, I saw it as the other route could only be achieved if Paul killed the baron, that's why he shuts down a bit when he learns his sister already killed him.
I think Paul really did have three: Die in the desert, join the Fremen and see the Jihad unfold whether he died or not, or attempt to flee and take House Atreides rogue. But that last option Paul discarded because he was already beginning to lean upon prescience, and he could not see where that path might go. I think Paul would've chosen death over uncertainty. (That was also the Spacing Guild's downfall.)
After watching Dune: Part Two, Paul still seems like the hero of the story at the end to me. The atrocities of Muad'dib's Jihad haven't happened yet. I keep seeing people in the comment section of various videos claim he is a villain, even in the movie. Who's the real hero if not Paul Atreides?
We as humans like to put people in boxes, Paul overall is a tragic hero not a perfect person, he’s complex and certain his decisions lead to consequences. people want it to be a Star Wars with black and white morality.
@@Fatman_egg_thou4 It seems most people don't get it, I guess. As soon as any character does or even thinks anything they think is bad, then that character must be a villain.
He did get revenge for his father and house, and managed to unite the Fremen to repel the Harkonnen but when…*SPOILER* The other Great houses refused to accept his ascendancy he willingly sends the Fremen forward onto an attack on the Imperium launching the jihad. He (Alia & Jessica) knew full well the consequences of him doing so and his conflict with Chani would worsen but still he enacted it. Paul isn’t a hero/nor villain in the traditional sense but a young boy who had to walk a path laid out for him and do the best he can
The atrocity was going forward with a plan that would kill billions and knowing that it would spiral out of his control. The atrocity was choosing this path for revenge for his House instead of picking peace when he had already won. Instead of just keeping Arrakis and Caladan he wanted the Emperor's seat because Shaddam betrayed him and ordered the death of his family. Perhaps Paul saw through prescience that this victory wouldn't be enough; perhaps they would be betrayed again. Only he knows.
As a mind game, I'm imagining what other fictional universes could be a good fight. Fremen, true fremen not water fat city dwellers, vs say imperial storm troopers ? It's like a holy shit moment when you think about fremen raids, ambushes, hand to hand domination and at the same time being helpless in the open against blasters, vehicles, flyers. It would def be a fun animation.
Paul is a failed hero, as well as a failed father. He recognizes his own terrible destiny and passes that burden on to his own son when he refuses to accept it for himself. As a father I cant imagine consigning my own daughter to the kind of destiny Paul does to Leto, not if I had the ability to take it on myself.
The Bene Gesserit manufactured the story on Arrakis, but as it turned out, Paul actually became a prophet. I’ve had this intriguing thought that perhaps the Bene Gesserit, had some kind of intuitive sense that drove them to create the particular story they did on Arrakis - a limited prescience that only became fully realized in Paul.
The prophet is just a side effect of what the Bene Gesserit actually wants. The Kwisatz Haderach is the beidge between space and time. He sees the past, the present and the future.
My heart goes out to Paul/Timothee. It's not going to be all sunshine, rainbows and lollipops. There no such thing as a "holy war." War is a waste of time, money and good workers... as Russia and the Ukraine are proving grounds.
Here's the thing.... the other worlds also used swords! That's the entire thing about dune. Yes there are laser rifles here and there, but if your enemy was wearing shields, no one would dare use them since it would immediately cause a nuclear explosion for both sides. Here's the second thing you probably missed, by the end of the first book of dune/the second movie, Paul basically controlled the production of spice and all future spice reserves. So the guild immediately followed his orders and halted intergalactic trade and transport EXCEPT for Paul's Fremen armies. Why? Paul made a threat to destroy all spice fields on Arrakis otherwise. you may think couldn't that just be an empty threat, why did the spacing guild cave to it? It is because the spacing guild has a low level of future vision as well, and they literally saw the possibility of Paul doing it, so to secure their supply of spice they followed Paul's orders. Now, a planet that has been cut off from supply of food, weapons, soldiers and the rest of the Imperium sounds like an easy target to siege right? That was basically all planets now that the Guild obeyed Paul. So supporters of the Emperor and/or innocents only had access to locally grown food, supplies and soldiers, and could not send theirs to Arrakis to fight Paul either. Every planet in the Imperium became fish in a barrel for the Fremen. Not only that, the religious myths that inspired the Fremen weren't unique to Arrakis, they were planted on most of the worlds in the imperium by the Bene Gesserit to make way for their messiah the Kwisats Haderach. So whoever the Fremen didn't slaughter, they converted, because they all have similar messiah stories.
This latest Dune adaptation is a good action adventure movie that is loosely based on the events of the novel . It blithely skims over the underlying theme of the series of novels . It completely ignores the Butlerian Jihad and the issues behind it .
The whole first novel show how Paul was played as a pawn. Paul and Jessica struggled against the mythology surrounding them. Paul knew that tragedy waiting for him
That’s not true at all. Paul used the superstitions of the Fremen to get revenge on those who had anything to do with the death of his father. The Lady Jessica used the Fremen in order to survive. Just like the spacing guild. Paul’s visions were limited. So to say he knew the tragedy waiting him is not true.
Paul makes choices among possible timelines he saw. He is not a pawn. He chooses to manipulate Fremen, making them believe he is the Mahdi while knowing he's not a true divine messiah. He did this knowing this may cause the Jihad, but choose to take the risk. And by the way this was never the Bene Gesserit plan at all - they never plan for or want a Fremen's messiah or a Fremen's Jihad. Paul is not a pawn, he is a flawed character who fall into the trap of his desire for revenge, provoking his terrible purpose by the choices he makes.
Evil is evil, Paul Atreides. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all. - Geralt of Rivia
Except Geralt does choose. Because he often has no choice. If he was ever forcibly thrust into political power, he'd be no different to the other Kings of his time prolly too.
I love the phrase 'mental epidemic'. It's very appt for these times too. Have to say though, although I love all the Herbert Dune books (as well as the flawed Lynch movie but not the Sci-Fi channel series or the bland Villeneuve movie) I do get what Herbert is trying to show with the uncontrollable Jihad slaughterfest across the known Universe of mankind. However, I just don't buy it that Paul could not stop it. After all, no one is going anywhere unless the Guild of Navigators say so. And Paul being the Emperor could have asked them to refuse to transport the Jihad's troops from planet to planet. They would be more than happy to comply with this request in order to protect the value of their shares in CHOAM which would have tanked with all the disruption and certainly with 90 planets being sterilized. If the Fremen Jihad is akin to the 7th century and beyond Islamic Jihads then there are key differences. The Islamic Jihads may have been spurred on by the faith of the Muslims but it was really just powerful warlords using religion as an excuse to conquer other lands. They fought each other and constantly toppled one another's empires within Islam. They even murdered the descendants of Mohamed just a few short years after his own death so that tells you how unified they were. The Islamic Jihad was unstoppable from within due to the fact that there was no central figure or authority they all had allegiance to. So lots of fires broke out all over the Middle East, North Africa, Persia, Anatolia etc and no one figure was able to control the Jihad efforts. An example of how central figures could control Jihad is when one caliphate Muslim Warlord sent an order from deep within Saudi Arabia to one of his top generals with instructions to cease expansion (at the time, they didn't believe in going on/over water) and the general obeyed him. So within a contained empire with a leader there were plenty of examples of Jihad not only being controlled but also behaviour being restrained as the conquered people's were given the choice not of conversion or death but conversion or higher taxes. But Paul was a living God in the eyes of the Fremen and he was the Emperor of the Universe and could have asked the Guild not to allow the Fremen to be transported to other worlds. He could also have call in all the leaders from general level all the way down to sergeant equivalents in the Fremen (Seitch leaders) and ordered them not to go on a conquering rampage. So yeah, I get how Frank Herbert is showing us the danger of fanaticism etc. But in this actual story it doesn't ring true. Of course the Fremen were capable of such barbarity, but it doesn't ring true that Paul could not stop or contain the slaughter.
Paul needed to remain Fremen messiah to keep the throne. If he tried to refuse this role after he took the throne, he would have been killed by some enemy or by some fanatical Fremen. From there, the Fremen, by controlling the spice and the Guild, could have launched an even bloodier Jihad in the name of Maud'Dib the martyr.
@@natzbarney4504 Just because the Jihad could have been even worse doesn't mean the one that happened was inevitable. I get the trop, as seen in 'Atlas Shrugged' where the person in power thinks he controls the people but in fact he is enslaved to the will of the people and he only really has power when he orders them to do what they want to be ordered to do. But Paul had prescience and he could easily have rooted out any Fremen plot against him. He could also have kept concentric rings of absolutely loyal Fremen around him so no assassins would get anywhere near him. After all, Leto 2 was the most hated being in the universe for thousands of years and he easily thwarted all assassination attempts. He only got took out in the end because he allowed it.
@@NR-rv8rz The Jihad was not inevitable from the start, Paul could have avoided it by not manipulating the Fremen into thinking that he is the messiah in first place. But the first novel make it very clear that by the end, after Paul conquered the throne, there is no way out of the Jihad. Paul's prescience shows him different future path but he can only choose the least bad one. Prescience don't make him immortal. To keep loyal Fremen around him, he need to continue to be this messianic figure. This imply launching the Jihad. Take it the other way: if Paul stop acting like the messiah, he will lose Fremen's support. This is probably what his visions told him. A major theme of Paul's arc is you can't have both way. The Jihad is the price to pay for using desert power. Paul understands too late that there is simply no way out, once the Fremen saw him as their messiah.
Firstly, It's not interpretations of the book I'm challenging. It's Frank Herbert's rare, poor writing on this matter that I say doesn't ring true. It's a bit lazy for him to just demand that we accept the Jihad was unstoppable. I've detailed plausible reasons how Paul could have halted it in my previous comment. He had the prescience and charisma to convince them to hold off and just live on Arakis attending him as a Fremen Emperor of the universe. Also, Paul did not have to be the Messiah. As we see later when he rejected it and went into the desert. If he wanted to avoid the Jihad and the only thing stopping him was his fear of losing his messiah status then it's silly to imagine he would allow 60 billion to die just so he could keep that position.
@@NR-rv8rz I respectfully disagree, I think Paul's story is a powerful tragedy, very well written. Herbert never presents Paul's prescience as an absolute power allowing him to do what he wants. He can only choose from the limited options he sees. And it's explicit in the novel that he can't see everything (there is an Irulan's intro to a chapter where she describes how the visions are often blocked as if there is an hill in front of a road). Prescience does not make him immortal or able to avoid all conspiracies without a price to pay. On the contrary, there is always a price to pay depending on the choices. This is absolutely constant with Paul, for whom Jihad is the price to pay for desert power and who is powerless to prevent Chani's death in Dune Messiah, and it's also true with Leto, later in the saga, for whom the sacrifice of his humanity is the price of the Golden Path. We must also remember that Paul's charisma and his ascendancy over the Fremen comes mainly from the fact that he perfectly plays the mythological role of their messiah. If he deviates from it (by not launching Jihad for example) it is easy to believe that he will rapidly lose his control over the Fremen. It must also be remembered that after millennia of Corrino rule, it is inevitable that dynastic change has met with resistance within the Landsraad. Paul therefore needs the support and fighting fervor of the Fremen to keep the throne and, ultimately, life. As for the personal sacrifice Paul makes at the end of Dune Messiah, he only sees this path after 12 years of Jihad. And to get there he must first condemn the Qizarate and Korba's plot and sacrifice his eyes and his throne to finally end the Jihad. Again, there is a high price to pay.
7.02- There was a third option that Paul had, mentioned just once. That was joining the Spacing Guild, where his developing prescience would not be considered out of the ordinary.. As it was mentioned just once, and briefly, there must have been something about it that made him dismiss it instantly, but we are never told why he rejected it. Could it be he saw that, despite the transformation he would eventually undergo, the Jihad, in some form, would still happen? Or did that option end with the loss of Arrakis, the Sandworms, Melange, the extinction of first the Guild, and then the human species? What is interesting to note is that the Fremen's vision in the first book of a transformed Arrakis didn't take into account that the loss of the desert would end the whole Sandworm life cycle and spice production.. Whilst at the time of writing, the novel served as a warning against charismatic leaders, today, it has a new resonance... the perils of extremism and fanaticism. Both blinker the believer/follower to everything but their own distorted view of the world, so much so that right up to the last moment they fail to see their own demise.
Joining the Guild instead of the Fremen would have avoided Jihad entirely. Paul would have survived without provoking his terrible purpose. Alia would never have become an abomination and a lot of tragedies would have been avoided. For Paul and for the universe, this would have been the good choice, the choice to avoid his terrible purpose. There is no implication that it would have cause human extinction. The Jihad is not a condition for the Golden path.
@@natzbarney4504 Leto the 2nd might not have happened under those conditions. It's possible that through in-action, things would've fallen apart regardless.
@@KingOfAceZ1 Sure but another eventual Kwisatz Haderach could have led humanity on the Golden path at some point, without needing a Jihad before that, as another KH breed by the Bene Gesserit would could have got the throne through marriage to a Corrino heiress. But this was not part of Paul's story anyway. The reason Paul choose the desert power (provoking the Jihad despite his intentions) have nothing to do with the GP. And by falling into this trap, Paul succumb to his terrible purpose. His story arc is a tragedy.
@@natzbarney4504 No, you are right, the Jihad was not a condition for the Golden Path... but the Golden Path was necessary to save the human species. We aren't told if Paul had sensed the Golden Path from the start, but personally, I think he was so focused on trying to prevent the Jihad, he didn't look that much further ahead. When he did finally get a good look at it, it appalled him so much he tried to run from it... and left his son to take up the burden.
Along with the death of his father and many of those who served under the banner of House Atriedes. Paul was a hunted young man for two years in the most inhospitable planet, so he did whatever he could in order to survive and deliver his own brand of justice.
Now I see why Mr. Herbert used bits of Islamic lore as a base for his books, every civilization that want the middle east gotten push out quickly or brutally from Alexander the great, the US military. And two the people whos comments are on top thank you guy for your service
Thank you, Elaine. I find it sad that Herbert called for the next 20,000 years to be free of democracy. Instead he provides eternal feudalism, which is just a form of slavery. A bit of a bummer. I'm hoping that democracy becomes the only form of government, forever. Despite its many flaws, democracy is better than the known alternatives.
Democracy is the illusion of choice which keeps society stable. My personal conflict is that I wished more realised this but if they did the system might collapse... Which it seems dangerously close to at the moment. Funny how fragile it all seems once you see the strings.
The Dune universe is indeed a futuristic dystopia. Herbert was indeed pessimistic about the future of civilization and believed that the development of large corporations could lead to a form of neo-feudalism.
@@natzbarney4504 actually large corporations usually take over thier governments once they gain enough power which is what fascism is Usually fascism is confused with authoritarianism which is what everyone hates and thinks they are standing against I dont think you could attribute feudalism to anything in Dune because nobody really owns the planets and forces the people into servitude except the emperor so it's actually imperialism Paul just replaced the Emperor and nothing really changed
@@CoinSlotKitty This is feudalism. The emperor do not hold absolute power, the houses of the Landsraad have a big part of the power in the Imperium and have a lot of latitude to govern their planet. Paul replaced this by a tyrannical absolute theocracy.
I guess I never considered him a bad person until I watched a lot of these internet videos, it killed off his whole family tried to exterminate them and they were doing the same to the Freeman I guess that's as much of a declaration of Wars you can get. War sucks no matter what but it's better to be on The Winning Side
What level of galactic genocide would have happened anyway? What would have happened if Fayd Rautha ascended to the throne? Perhaps destiny of the scale and magnitude does not belong to one person.
The Fremen most likely still would’ve fought and repelled even if Feyd bested Paul and secured the throne for himself. Paul’s death would’ve been all the catalyst they needed to launch their jihad in his name. By that point he was already a legend in their eyes (besides Chani and the Southern non-fundamentalist)
The Golden path the necessity of it only makes sense if there are extraterrestrial threats to Humanity. what is the purpose of strengthening the human position in the Universe if not for a nonhuman threat.
Humanity is quite capable of destroying itself on its own. I would even say that the self-destructive behavior of humanity is one of the themes that Hebert explores in Dune. One of the goal of the Golden path is to put an end to this kind of self-destructive behavior. That said, the Jihad of Muad'Dib has nothing to do with the Golden Path.
It's only true because the bene gesserit MADE it true. Don't you get the message? The Kwisatz Haderach is not some holy messiah, it IS a manufactured messiah.
I’ve always painted the messaging here to be muddled. On the one hand Paul is painted as a cautionary tale about not trusting charismatic saviors. But at other times the story feels like it’s trying to excuse Paul’s actions. He’s not a false prophet he’s just caught up in inevitable fate. Also the concept of the Golden Path seems to justify his and Leto II’s actions as necessary evil that ultimately does lead to humanity’s long term salvation. Seems like Herbert wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
That is the duality of his situation: on one end, fate, something he cannot escape one way or another, and that would absolve him of that choice. on the other, there is still human part of this as every choice, even guided by fate, takes a toll on a human making it. He may be absolved of the burden of choice, but he'll have to live with the consequences, and that weighs on him heavily. Truly a meta-level in tragic writing: he's bound by fate, so that he can make humanity relinquish being bound by fate.
I view it like this, we only know of the golden path from Leto II's say so. HE say's it is necessary, and has launched it for 3400 years, so there's no way going off it now. But just because he has future vision doesn't mean he is morally or ethically sound. There very much could be a case made for Leto just being another tyrannical egotistical leader, just like how the universe viewed him. Following the golden path to avoid humanity's extinction is a proposed path, with the most likely hood of success and so most readers have just accepted that conclusion. But even if there are other less successful alternatives, doesn't mean they can't be tried. It's like saying we need to euthanise all children with genetic deformities because they will increase the probability of future generations of genetically deformed children. It can be done, but SHOULD it be done?
I'm curious, why did Frank Herbert use the word "jihad" to describe the holy war instead of the term holy war What is the difference between the two words? Or should I say three?
In a nutshell, because parts of todays religions survived. We also know why Frank Herbert chose that specific word instead of crusade(though that word is sometimes used too) or holy war. It is because of the messianic impulse and near apocalyptic violence that sometimes accompanies it. Now with a word like the crusades you've got the second part down, but less the messianic part (which is much more prevalent in islamic societies). Holy war simply doesn't really cover it and does feel a whole lot intense. Now in terms of the universe of Dune, it's not ahrd to image a word with such strong associations (both 'good' and 'bad') being passed down generations with much of it's initial concept still intact. Also you have to remember Frank Herbert did not have the same associations with the word Jihad that we have in the modern day, in the 50's and 60's it was seen in quite a different light both in the west as well as the east.
The Fremen religion comes from a blending and transformation of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam. The concepts of Mahdi and Jihad already exists in Islam Sunni. Moreover, the cultural roots of the Fremen are also clear in their language, in which one can recognize a lot of words of Arabic origin.
I think that it's clear from the books that in order to be a supreme leader, one must become a monster. In the recent movie I thought I saw a scene where I interpreted it as Paul taking a kinder approach to the Fremen and not killing the one he was dueling, thus becoming friends with that one. But in the end he did not choose that version of the future. In using his precognitive ability and always choosing the optimal outcome he always justified the means with the ends, and then his honorable upbringing, even his humanity, meant nothing as he transformed into a calculating machine that snuffed out billions of lives for a bright future that only he can see.
And then stayed away from the "Golden path" that is the only scenario that let humanity survive for the comfort of his marital life with Chani, thus letting the duty rest on his son's shoulders to take that "become a monster to save the future" approach to the most extreme. If you haven't read books three and going on, you should.
That's the warning of charismatic leaders. Which is why I am able to see nobility in Baron Harkonnen. He didn't see himself as the unfeeling monster he was. He was defending his family. It's also the reason I've seen Paul as a whimp. As he constantly struggles with the brutality of life on Dune
@@robertsosna3557 each harkonen character is mostly driven by his vices
@@TomFromMars That is what makes them both appealing and repellent. And the reason they're so deadly. They're nobody's pawn. Even if they get manipulated. Their appeal is their vices. Which they don't apologize for. Where other villains can be shamed a Harkonnen embraces his flaws and vices. Uses them to full advantage.
Dammn like Eren
When I first served in Iraq I constantly thought of Dune. I even re-read the books during my down time for the third time in my life. I was in the middle of what was called to Sunni triangle and the word "jihad" would be used daily when talking with the village elders and the local population. That being said, the Zen-Sunni warriors of Arrakis, the Fremen should use the word that their ancestors used in reference to any warrior fighting in the name of God.
Thank you for your service love and I appreciate that you like they stayed true to Herbert's work we know how the sjw can be.
Thank you for your service.
Thank you for your service! As for Dune I would say that there are a lot of parallels between the rise of Paul Muad’ib and Muhammad, the most obvious being massive jihad being fought in both of their names and the vast expanses that both conquered.
At the start of the first Gulf War, I saw similarities as well especially the Shadam/ Saddam connections, thanks for showing me I was not alone.
There is something supernatural about that place over there it’s hard to describe
"Don't trust leaders to always be right."
-Frank Herbert
Except when it's Darwi Odrade ;)
And don't trust Frank Herbert on that either.
@Broskisnowski He wasn't right about AH though, who is the most lied about leader in history. I can't find anything wrong with what he actually said or did.
Well He did lead them to golden path and he freed freemen from harkonen
@@manoz6194you mean Adolf Hitler?
Leto realized the sad truth - he had to sacrifice any of the humanity he had left, becoming the greatest scumbag ever lived and worst tyrant in human history, to insure humanity would never again rely on the charisma of heroes while he simultaneously evolved humanity so that could not be controlled by prescient elitests.
I wonder why people think "the end doesnt justify the means" when "the end" is literally humanities only hope of survival.
One of my unforgettable moments in Dune Messiah (where Paul's jihad was intricately explained), was of a Fedaykin's first time seeing the sea. The setting which was a sunset, seemed surreal to the Fedaykin; he then drank the salty water which the others shunned him for. I imagine that scene every time and hope that Villenueve would adapt it.
*correct me if I'm wrong, if it really was sunset or not
Yes they mention sunsets there. I just read it yesterday
If you want something close to that look for "Bobbie Draper seeing the sea", from the Expanse, she was a martian human that always dreamed to se one in person
Nicely put together as always Nerd Cookies.
I believe another one more crucial event that solidified the Jihad and Paul's fury against House Harkonen, The Sarduakar and the Emperor was the death of his son newborn son in the first book.
I always liked the fact that Herbert spent so much time on what happens when we turn a charismatic leader into some messianic figure. I also like the fact that we see Paul laments over what he has to do to save humanity. It does make you wonder knowing what has to be done to save humanity is any one person even capable of such a choice. I've always found out one of the most thought-provoking elements of the series.
I agree, and to me one of the most thought provoking elements of 'Dune' is how helpless Paul was, in spite of all his power...He is KH. Mentat, the most powerful Emperor in the history of the universe, and still feels helpless...a forced witness to events that only he can see coming...less than a puppet on a string, Paul is a bound and passive observer....Paul has no free will...from the beginning he was the result of someone else's plan (the BG), someone else's counter plan (Jessica), and he is carried along by the waves and the machinations created by others (the Emperor and his own father, how he ended up on Arrakis in the first place)....all this is interesting and very topical imo....because a scientist recently concluded in a study that 'free will' is a myth...that all humans act and react in ways that are more or less predetermined: by circumstance, conditioning, internal chemical reactions, temperament, etc.
@@koko40800Of course, Paul has free will. Free will doesn't mean you can do whatever you like but that you can choose between two or more options or even to do or not to do something.
@@str.77 to know the future is to be trapped by it. Paul knew what he was going to do because he already made the choice long beforehand
@@ryansauchuk7290 So he did make the choice.
"To the future is to be trapped by it" assumes that there is just this one possible future and not a whole range of futures you can influence by your choices.
I was serving in Afghanistan when I read Dune for the first time. I'd always wanted to check it out, but it suddenly seemed somehow appropriate when I was in the Middle East. I got all the way through God Emperor of Dune by the end of my orders.
Herbert's take on religion was brilliant, showing the inherent danger of taking advantage of religious fervor, and trying to control a jihad, as we had done in Afghanistan back in the 80s. In the 2000s, we were reaping the whirlwind that we had created.
Honestly that's quite eye opening. The USA and CIA planted seeds ofJihad in Afghanistan against the Soviets back in the day, and unleashed an ideology of separatism and rebellion across the middle east as the leaders of the mujahideen spilled over and spread their political movements. The local population also gets enticed by the promise of former glory of the caliphate days, something they've long lost since the fall of the turks at the end of ww1. All these issues, Herbert talked about at some point or another in the series. The man was a visionary, and I'm saying thus from a muslin perspective who's reflected on my communities reaction to modernity and the fall of the 'glory days as well as how religion is always used to rile up the population (Malaysian politics is full of it), he hit the nail right on the head basically.
I think the results of no intervention would've been far worse.
Never heard a single military vet refer to deployment as orders. Fake
Afghanistan isn't in the middle east
Blame the cia
Your summary of Dune knowledge, and soothing voice getting me through it, are always a welcome part of my week.
It was interesting seeing Pauls vision which had Fremen warriors on Caladan his homeworld. Those that read the books know that during and after the Jihad, Lady Jessica forbade Fremen from going to Caladan even for religious pilgrimages.
I saw that as a variation of the future jihad where Paul didn’t have Jessica in his corner and as the Fremen reverend mother and he also probably longed to return home but didn’t realize it come at the cost of a galactic genocide
I think the timeskip in the films will be much shorter than the books which might change a lot of the story, and hopefully we'll see more of the jihad. The implication of that scene was that there was a battle for Caladan, maybe in the movies Caladan was bestowed to another great house after the fall of Atreides, and Paul will have to fight to retake it during the Jihad?
@@theswagman1263in the novels Count Hasimir Fenring and Lady Margot were given fief of Canadian until Paul took the throne. Then Gurney and Jessica returned, betrothed to each other and ruled it while Paul ran the Imperium
Frank Herbert: beware charismatic figures
Consumer: all hail mickey mouse!
Frank Herbert: goddammit!
I hate Disney
Yeah, The Mouse. Not…you know.
Having read and reread the many books of Dune, I like to point out that Paul Muad'dib's Jihad as we call it. Was merely him exacting revenge on the Harkonnen's and the Emperor of the Known Universe. In many ways, Paul was the victim over and over, throughout the Dune saga. At first, he was avenging the deaths of the Army of the Atreides, then of his father Duke Leto, then the death of his first-born son Leto II. In each machination, Paul was presented with two options, both destructive and violent. By the end of Dune Messiah, Paul while a ruler of Arrakis, was torn apart with grief for what was done in his name, but he couldn't find an effective way to make amends for his past self. That, I think, is the truest lesson of Dune; as Frank Herbert, used the story as a way to say beware of charismatic leaders. We've seen throughout our own history that leaders who appear to be Charismatic, often hid terrible purposes in the things they use to bring about "the greater good."
Great video. Paul story is a powerful tragedy and a cautionary tale against charismatic leaders. As said in the novel, no more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero.
Fantastic as always, thank you. It has always been my opinion that Paul did not know the inevitability of the Jihad until he took the water of life. Before then he saw glimpses but still thought he could overt the worst of it.
This is cautionary tale to not put too much faith in a charismatic leader, especially when politics and religion have their lines blurred. A cult of personality will inevitable have the members believe they have a monopoly on the truth and believe that it is in fact everyone else who has been brainwashed and in a cult. When reason has been bypassed by the many great harm can be done in name of what is perceived as Truth.
"When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late." - Frank Herbert, 'Dune'.
He don't know it's inevitable until too late but he knows since the start that by assuming this messianic role among Fremen to manipulate them, in order to use their fervor to fight his ennemies, the risk is there.
Great quote, Herbert really was a genius.
There was one line in Dune Messiah describing the jihad that really struck me when I first read it. I forget the exact words, but it left me with the impression that the jihad had devolved into a mere bureaucratic process. That Paul's government continued the jihad only because it had always done so. Frightening stuff.
Something around he jus lost control of them or rather be never did
Hopefully the word "jihad" is used instead of crusade in Dune Part 2. Also, it would be cool if the beginning of the jihad is shown at the end of the movie. Can't wait for it to come out!
I can imagine so many people on twitter being so mad that word is used in the movie for [insert stupid ass reason here].
It's a shame that the closest they got in the first one is "holy war." Because say what you will, "jihad" sounds so much cooler than what they went with, especially combined with this very otherworldly sci-fi setting
« I see a jihad spreading across the universe like unquenchable fire » would’ve been an instant meme
I always thought crusade had a meaning linked to the discoveries the know-how and new knowledge that the crusaders brought back with them from contact with the middle east.. effects their experiences had on society when they returned. In that sense it fits with Dune eg Dune Messiah has effects on the Fremen.. Farok finding his sea, etc, often negative effects.. plus crusade conjures a medieval image of banners and a kind of supposed chivalry, a myth I know but does fit with the feudal basis of the world of Dune up to 10,191AG.
@@neilmurphy966 lol, tons of people were persecuted and brutally murdered in crusades too
lets not sugar coat it
I always thought that Paul choosing the jihad over any of the other options was the most salvageable to mankind. Meaning, reconciling with his uncle would have been an even more disastrous move, emotion aside.
How?
@@CastragroupEverything occurred in the way it did to pave the way for the God Emperor. Paul’s Jihad needed to happen in order to destroy the current standing of the known universe.
It's a breath of fresh air your narrations...
Thanks
These videos are always interesting. Thank you for making them and have a great weekend!
Now _that's_ a synopsis, y'all.
Excellent (again), Ms Nerd Cookies. Compliments on your editing the text down from what I imagine was a much larger work. Your voice and the smoothing done in post are spot on.
I honestly feel like this topic didn't have enough fleshing out. We're TOLD that it's happening, but never really shown what these supposedly brutal wars look like. How did the fremen take over so many planets? What were the great battles of the war? I think its a huge missed opportunity, or at least ripe ground for exploration by Brian Herbert.
They show a scene of it in the mini series. Very well done.
No, it's not a missed opportunity because this isn't a Star Wars series about cool wars and battles and action scenes. The whole point of the jihad from a writing perspective was to flesh out Paul's character.
Besides, some things are more powerful when left to the imagination, rather than ruin the whole mystery by spoonfeeding us every detail of what happened.
@@DG-gx4sg I see what you are saying but I strongly disagree. It is an opportunity for fleshing out. A war like this is extremely fertile ground for interesting narratives.
Herbert story is not about Jihad's battles. It's about Paul's inner struggle against his terrible purpose. This is the important part of the story - the choice he makes provoking the Jihad in first novel and the struggle with the consequences (and his try to find an exit) in Messiah. To tell this story, there is no point to show Jihad's battles in detail.
Well, I think we have many real life examples of what it would look like, for instance: Mao China, Stalin Russia, Hitler Germany, Christian crusades, the Islamic expansion, and many more.
If you ever opened a bakery called nerd cookies for people to sit down and chat about nerd lore, I would be a loyal customer .
But for now I'll just keep coming back to your awesome RUclips channel .
You can cut the ribbon at the grand opening :)
@@NerdCookies what is your favorite cookie?
After reading the children of dune a couple times, it became apparent to me that Paul actually had the choice that Leto did. Become the worm. Become the real god, save humanity from itself.
But that in the end Paul was too selfish or cowardly to accept the fate that Leto did, not as the living god emperor, but as the semi conscious soul in a million worms for a million years.
This cowardice/selfishness ended making things worse in the end as Leto even says his path is worse than what Paul saw.
We also see in Messiah that Paul was fairly inept in his leadership and bemoaned his god status more than actually doing anything about it. These inactions led to his sister's demise.
In the end to me Paul was clearly out of his depth once he achieved the throne and was simply overwhelmed with his own abilities to the point of inaction.
I kind of agree and disagree. Paul DID have the same choice before him that Leto II did: Become the worm to save humanity. I kind of have a hard time seeing him as a coward for specifically that choice though. Making the choice was more of a testament to Letos bravery than it was a black mark on Paul. I honestly can't think of what would be a more hellish thing to endure than immortality and the choice to integrate with the sandworm meant that whomever did it was going to have to say alive for several thousand years and stay focused and resolute the entire time. I honestly have a hard time imagining that Paul would have remained sane if he'd tried.
You're right though about Paul being in over his head with the whole "God-head of the empire" role he was in. To be fair, he didn't WANT a religious jihad that would soak every world of the empire in blood, but he didn't really try to stop it either. Instead he just adopted a stance of wearied resignation to the whole debacle, even before it had happened.
@@thundercricket4634
Good points.
We did see that Paul was hesitant to accept the jihad, but realized it would happen with or without him eventually.
What we also see is that if he had fully embraced it he could have steered it better and possibly even saved billions of lives.
There's no doubt Leto II was stronger and braver than his father for making the choice of being the worm. But we also see that Paul continuously chose the easy path for himself, even his last path as the preacher was his easiest choice.
I continue to believe the "Golden Path" was never truly necessary. If Paul and Leto II could have accepted futures where the did not rule, so many more possible futures would have opened up to them...
Agreed but they were hungry for power but could never admit it
The narration is so relaxing, love this channel.
I understand why Thufir Hawat had such a low opinion of the Bene Gesserit. They were responsible for all this through their "religious engineering" and selective breeding program. Paul can't be blamed, he was destiny bound to do this as was his son. They were the ones who effectively killed 50 billion people
Let's not absolve the Fremen from responsibility either. They were the ones that "effectively" killed 60 billion people.
and that's just under Paul.
Leto II killed many more in his 3,000-year reign.
@@str.77thank you, I understand the narrative of the oppressed indigenous people finally rebelling and claiming their independence again from sovereign forces…BUT they didn’t stop there. Did there need to be an endless bloodbath across the galaxy for a little over a decade in Paul’s reign?
@@DirByHasan No, of course not. But that was partially due to the Fremen's own, let's say, ideology as well as the fact that their rebellion brought them in conflict with the Emperor. That could have been settled by Paul becoming Emperor but IIRC not all Great Houses accepted that.
@@str.77 yeah it was a mix of the great houses arrogance and the firemen’s newly found religious bloodlust thanks to Paul, I love this series
@@DirByHasan It wasn't a newly found bloodlust though.
We need more of these videos, please! ❤
I hope the movie will emphasize the point that Paul COULD have chosen peace between his house and house Harkonnen, and that it was his unwillingness to let go of hatred that caused him not to choose that path. It's by far the most damning aspect of Paul, and I feel it should be there in order to drive the point home that you shouldn't trust charismatic leaders to always be right.
It's the case at the very end of the Villeneuve's movie. When Jessica wants to quit Arrakis, Paul stop her and say "My road lead into the desert". This is the moment of the choice in the movie version of the story: the moment Paul choose to use this desert power knowing he risk to awake a force he cannot control, leading to his terrible purpose.
In the novel, the moment of the choice is earlier (in the tent chapter, where Paul consider to quit the planet and became a Guild's Navigator) but it's the same choice.
That would be the Harkonnen in him. Imagine finding out your father's killer was your grandfather. It's the stuff of Shakespeare and Greek tragedy.
Very well explained. Compelling visuals. Fabulous Narration.
Muchas gracias por tu contenido de excelente calidad. c:
Your voice is so relaxing, and your content is so well-researched. Your videos rock! :)
Hope you do a part 2 and one on Leto II’s peace.
Great suggestion! Thanks!
My theory as to why the reconciliation timeline didn't happen was either because Vladamir and Shadam wanted the Atreides dead for being jealous, salty bitches or the fact Jessica gave Leto a son instead of a daughter, thereby fulfilling the goal of the Bene Gesirate.
I'm guessing the first. If Paul had visions of a possible reconciliation, i doubt it would be after his birth invalidated it.
@@Interrobang212 True
Knowing the outcome of his jihad my opinion is that reconciliation would be the less bloody path after securing the throne.
Well Paul did make a choice. Reconciliation was an option to avoid the Jihad. Paul knows very well that by going to the Fremen, using their desert power in his family feud, that he will probably provokes a bloody Jihad, thousands of time worst than Harkonnen or Shadam's oppression.
The real main conflict of Paul story's arc is not Atreides vs Harkonnen, it's Paul vs his terrible purpose. Paul failed to see that and his story is a powerful tragedy because of that.
@@natzbarney4504 I agree, Paul felt he was doing everything correct. He would not listen to anyone, not even Stilgar.
Im coming back from the club drunk as fuck these videos are really chill and they help to relax and sleep
Sleep tight ❤
I would happily sit and listen to you reading a shopping list, your voice is just... gorgeous 💓
Another great video. I can't help think of the quote "humans are never more serious than when at play". Contrast the exploration of concepts and ideas here with any "serious" news or tv program.
Hey cookie I'm a big fan of everything you do! And I'm a Huge fan of Dune I even got my Dad into it. Keep up the good work. And remember fear is the mind-killer😎
Awesome! Thank you!
😁😁😁
Great work and video as usual! Even it is a little difficult for me to perfectly understand all of your reflexions about this huge saga, your eloquence and calm way of speech help a lot...
A nerd waffle from Belgium.
P.S.: Sorry for my bad english:/
Ne vous inquiétez pas : votre anglais ne pourrait pas être pire que mon français.
YAY! A new DUNE video! Thank you, Nerd Cookies!
I think Paul was already on top od a powderkeg of repressed people across the universe created over 10,000 years. What occurred tragic but tame compared to what could have happenned. But Pail was hit by it too fast for him to have taken the steps his song was rwady to take
Thank you for another great video, Elaine! :)
I only just realized I came across more harsh in my previous comments. I didn't explain thoroughly that at the beginning Paul had only theoretical knowledge of the scope of the politics of the empire.
It was Duke Leto's murder that transformed Paul. And the teachers of Paul were the ones who allowed him to avoid being the pawn the Bene Gesserit want him to be. That's the struggle I refer to as Paul manning up.
Great informative video as always. I didn't recognize your notification at first with the new avatar but I'll get used to but I do miss the cookie avatar, it immediately said you. 👍🍪🥛😋
I went back to the cookie 😆
@@NerdCookies Thank you🙏
While Herbert's themes in the first few books revolve around the problems with Paul and his chosen path, it must be pointed out that Paul felt this was the lesser evil of the courses put before him due to prescience. And only with a much more harsh and authoritarian government as prescribed by the Golden Path did humanity ensure its survival. Leto II killed many more people than Paul's jihad. At least that is how I interpreted the line "Your Jihad will be a summer picnic on Caladaan in comparison.". It could be said that this was in reference to The Shattering, but I always felt this was part of the discussion about the rule of each Atreides. Anyway, I could never tell if he was changing his mind about authoritarian rule or if he was saying that sometimes it is the pain that defines the past and creates the future. I love that I will probably never fully understand these books even after several rereads.
Great topic, but I am not sure it is clear to me yet. Why couldn’t Paul stop it? Surely he has power to control who left Arrakis and where they went. The fremen still needed to use the guild. What was worse than the jihad that meant he had to let it (mostly) play out? Was is a stagnation threat like good path had to avoid? Sorry but I still don’t understand.
Paul could not stop the Jihad anymore after he took the throne. To take the throne, Paul needed the fighting fervor of the Fremen and he still need Fremen support to keep his throne. To keep control over the Fremen, he need to continue to acts as their messiah, meaning that he must lead the Jihad.
If he tried at this point to oppose the Jihad, we can presume that he would have been killed by some external enemy or some fanatical Fremen and the Jihad (in a probably bloodier form) would have proceed anyway in the name of Muad'Dib the martyr. This is crystal clear by the end of the first novel: Paul sees no path avoiding the Jihad at this point, and the Fremen would have launched it, with or without him. Remember that at the end of the first novel, the Fremen control Arrakis and they know how to destroy the spice, thanks to their messiah, so they can control the Guild, with or without Paul alive.
For Paul, the only way to stop the Jihad would have be to not pretend to be the Fremen messiah in first place. But Paul wants to get this desert power to avenge his family. Doing so he awaked a force that he can't control or stop. Religious fanaticism is a very dangerous political tool... And Paul trapped himself in a very dark tragic place, right into the terrible purpose that he fears since the beginning of the book.
Love me some Jihad....especially on the weekends when I don't have to get up early the next day.
Nice one. Sometimes I like lore videos as much as the literature itself. The Rememberencer did one on my favorite of the favorites warhammer character yesterday. Its an ace video so you might pick up some lore vid tips, plus he has a wicked good story too. Ayonid Thele the character's name was. He's the only guy on youtube to do a proper vid on the character. Anyway thanks again for the vids. They are tops.
Amazing video. Keep up the great job!
It’s strange though, bc Leto II actually ends up saving humanity from an extinction event in God Emperor of Dune. So…if we consider this, Paul Atreides was a necessary evil to arrive at the Golden Path. So he HAD TO do the things he did.
Your vids are so good, thank you.
You have a great voice love your content keep on the superb work
For Paul Atreid, Muatdeep's jihad was another box of pain. If he truly was for humanity, or if he wanted to avoid those many vain sacrifices, he should have met Shai Hulud in the desert as described above. But in the end, by sprinkling the seeds sown by the protection missionaries to survive and scattering Fremen, the 'dragon's tooth', throughout the universe, Paul is putting his hand into another box of pain. The universe is constantly testing through his throne whether he is a beast of prophecy or a man who will sacrifice a hand (here his kingdom and name) for his freedom.
This was a great pain and test for Paul, who would become obsessed with the prophecy, and almost surrendered in order to save his love, Chani Kynes. However, at this very moment, a new Kwisatz Haderach that was not in the prophecy, Leto II, who was obscured from the prophetic eyes of his father Paul, another Kwisatz Haderach, intervened beyond time. As a result, he rejects the road of tyrants; the golden road.
The path of this benevolent tyrant is the fate of the men of the Atreid family, but as a king, he loves his subjects and the subjects support him, but in the end, they have no choice but to meet a tragic end. This road is directly in contact with the 'male godmother' Kwisatz Haderach, who can see even the memories of men, and in return, Kwisatz Haderach takes on the 'Golden Road' that will save mankind from the trap of stagnation that will kill mankind. to bear the burden of knowing For this Golden Path, Kwisatz Haderach becomes another Shaihulud, redeeming mankind and forcing them to walk on a well-prepared path of oppression, while explosively destroying mankind who will not be defeated by Kwisatz Haderach, who will not succumb to prophecies and future times. It is necessary to nurture them so that they will never again suffer from the tyranny of stagnation and the tyranny of prophecy.
And the painful fact is that the Emperor Kwisatz Haderach, who has to carry out the task himself, must be the object of hatred by all mankind.
I cant help but think that Leto II had some kind of distant temporal influence on why the Jihad happened in the first place. We know that Leto II put humanity on the golden path, and that ultimately ends up with us being well armed to defend against Kralizec if and when that time was to occur. Paul knew about the golden path but didn't have the stamina or will to see it though. Paul was unfortunately a failed messiah. He created the beginnings of change towards the golden path, but he didn't finish the job. The fact this messiah did fail is something that I think Frank Herbert would have been happy with, or even deliberately intended to write to fit the trope of him wanting to warn us about these charismatic/messianic leaders.
How could the Fremen leave their home system given that they would need transport via the Guild? Is there something I missed about the Guild possibly joining the Fremen or capitulating to Paul's demands out of panic? Seems that is a big hole in the plot.
Its been awhile since I read the book but I think that controlling the spice essentially allows Paul to control the guild.
The one who controls the spice controls the universe. The spacing guild doesn't really care about who is sitting in the throne. They only care about who controls the spice which is Paul. Also don't forget that Paul had the emperor's banner which technically gives him access to all of shaddam's disposals.
Paul threatened to destroy all spice fields on Arrakis. This was a threat seen to be genuined by both the Reverend Mother Mohiam and the Spacing guild representatives since the Bene Gesserit can read lies and the spacing guild has low level future vision. Thus the guild completely obeyed Paul and thus implying that everyone else got cut off from interstellar transport.
Maybe Paul(& by extension Leto II) should have gone for the silver or bronze path.
Thank you , I asked for this months ago 😩😩❤️
😯You're welcome 😬
Paul saw Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen Naib to a creature of the Lisan-al-Gaib. Its a quote from the 2nd or 3rd book if i remember correctly. I think Paul didnt like what happened with the jihad and the fremen
It's mentioned in the original novel Dune.
For sure Paul didn't likes this, this is the realization of the terrible purpose he wanted to avoid... But it's also the price to pay for using the Fremen to fight his family's enemies, the tragic consequence of the choice he made by assuming this messianic role.
These books are an excellent depiction of how dangerous control(religion government police) over others has always been. Very seldom does it work out well.
I didnt take the second side of the visions the same way, I saw it as the other route could only be achieved if Paul killed the baron, that's why he shuts down a bit when he learns his sister already killed him.
New channel logo? Nice :)
You like it? I'm just trying it out...
I think Paul really did have three: Die in the desert, join the Fremen and see the Jihad unfold whether he died or not, or attempt to flee and take House Atreides rogue. But that last option Paul discarded because he was already beginning to lean upon prescience, and he could not see where that path might go. I think Paul would've chosen death over uncertainty. (That was also the Spacing Guild's downfall.)
After watching Dune: Part Two, Paul still seems like the hero of the story at the end to me. The atrocities of Muad'dib's Jihad haven't happened yet. I keep seeing people in the comment section of various videos claim he is a villain, even in the movie. Who's the real hero if not Paul Atreides?
We as humans like to put people in boxes, Paul overall is a tragic hero not a perfect person, he’s complex and certain his decisions lead to consequences. people want it to be a Star Wars with black and white morality.
@@Fatman_egg_thou4 It seems most people don't get it, I guess. As soon as any character does or even thinks anything they think is bad, then that character must be a villain.
He did get revenge for his father and house, and managed to unite the Fremen to repel the Harkonnen but when…*SPOILER*
The other Great houses refused to accept his ascendancy he willingly sends the Fremen forward onto an attack on the Imperium launching the jihad. He (Alia & Jessica) knew full well the consequences of him doing so and his conflict with Chani would worsen but still he enacted it. Paul isn’t a hero/nor villain in the traditional sense but a young boy who had to walk a path laid out for him and do the best he can
The atrocity was going forward with a plan that would kill billions and knowing that it would spiral out of his control. The atrocity was choosing this path for revenge for his House instead of picking peace when he had already won. Instead of just keeping Arrakis and Caladan he wanted the Emperor's seat because Shaddam betrayed him and ordered the death of his family. Perhaps Paul saw through prescience that this victory wouldn't be enough; perhaps they would be betrayed again. Only he knows.
Thats the entire point of Dune: there are no Real heroes and villains
Thanks elaine, and nick
Thanks for watching Shane :)
@@NerdCookies my pleasance as always. In other news my stargate rewatch is up the season 9 . Ep24 .
I’m thinking your voice is so effin soothing. I want u to start coming over to my house and read the Dune book series to me from the beginning…. Lol
Great video ......keep them coming
New logo confused me. 🤣 Great video though as always!
As a mind game, I'm imagining what other fictional universes could be a good fight.
Fremen, true fremen not water fat city dwellers, vs say imperial storm troopers ?
It's like a holy shit moment when you think about fremen raids, ambushes, hand to hand domination and at the same time being helpless in the open against blasters, vehicles, flyers.
It would def be a fun animation.
Paul is a failed hero, as well as a failed father. He recognizes his own terrible destiny and passes that burden on to his own son when he refuses to accept it for himself. As a father I cant imagine consigning my own daughter to the kind of destiny Paul does to Leto, not if I had the ability to take it on myself.
The Bene Gesserit manufactured the story on Arrakis, but as it turned out, Paul actually became a prophet. I’ve had this intriguing thought that perhaps the Bene Gesserit, had some kind of intuitive sense that drove them to create the particular story they did on Arrakis - a limited prescience that only became fully realized in Paul.
The prophet is just a side effect of what the Bene Gesserit actually wants. The Kwisatz Haderach is the beidge between space and time. He sees the past, the present and the future.
My heart goes out to Paul/Timothee. It's not going to be all sunshine, rainbows and lollipops. There no such thing as a "holy war." War is a waste of time, money and good workers... as Russia and the Ukraine are proving grounds.
do the books ever go into detail on how this conquest was possible? hard to image freeman with swords conquered, arguable more advance worlds
Here's the thing.... the other worlds also used swords! That's the entire thing about dune. Yes there are laser rifles here and there, but if your enemy was wearing shields, no one would dare use them since it would immediately cause a nuclear explosion for both sides.
Here's the second thing you probably missed, by the end of the first book of dune/the second movie, Paul basically controlled the production of spice and all future spice reserves. So the guild immediately followed his orders and halted intergalactic trade and transport EXCEPT for Paul's Fremen armies. Why? Paul made a threat to destroy all spice fields on Arrakis otherwise. you may think couldn't that just be an empty threat, why did the spacing guild cave to it? It is because the spacing guild has a low level of future vision as well, and they literally saw the possibility of Paul doing it, so to secure their supply of spice they followed Paul's orders. Now, a planet that has been cut off from supply of food, weapons, soldiers and the rest of the Imperium sounds like an easy target to siege right? That was basically all planets now that the Guild obeyed Paul. So supporters of the Emperor and/or innocents only had access to locally grown food, supplies and soldiers, and could not send theirs to Arrakis to fight Paul either.
Every planet in the Imperium became fish in a barrel for the Fremen. Not only that, the religious myths that inspired the Fremen weren't unique to Arrakis, they were planted on most of the worlds in the imperium by the Bene Gesserit to make way for their messiah the Kwisats Haderach. So whoever the Fremen didn't slaughter, they converted, because they all have similar messiah stories.
Thanks!
Thank you for the support!
This latest Dune adaptation is a good action adventure movie that is loosely based on the events of the novel . It blithely skims over the underlying theme of the series of novels . It completely ignores the Butlerian Jihad and the issues behind it .
Let's face it! Nerd 🍪🍪's is the Dune lore channel on RUclips! 😍
The whole first novel show how Paul was played as a pawn. Paul and Jessica struggled against the mythology surrounding them. Paul knew that tragedy waiting for him
That’s not true at all. Paul used the superstitions of the Fremen to get revenge on those who had anything to do with the death of his father. The Lady Jessica used the Fremen in order to survive. Just like the spacing guild. Paul’s visions were limited. So to say he knew the tragedy waiting him is not true.
Paul makes choices among possible timelines he saw. He is not a pawn. He chooses to manipulate Fremen, making them believe he is the Mahdi while knowing he's not a true divine messiah. He did this knowing this may cause the Jihad, but choose to take the risk. And by the way this was never the Bene Gesserit plan at all - they never plan for or want a Fremen's messiah or a Fremen's Jihad.
Paul is not a pawn, he is a flawed character who fall into the trap of his desire for revenge, provoking his terrible purpose by the choices he makes.
@@natzbarney4504 I agree. The Bene Gessserits had failed attempts at creating the Mahdi. So they had other contingencies for creating the Mahdi.
@@jimhoover7345 Yet he feared the coming jihad. And wanted to prevent it. While Lady Jessica became more terrified of Paul's transformation.
@@jimhoover7345 In addition to Frank Herbert's warning about charismatic leaders. We should be careful what we wish for. We might actually get it.
Evil is evil, Paul Atreides.
Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference.
The degree is arbitary. The definition’s blurred.
If I’m to choose between one evil and another…
I’d rather not choose at all.
- Geralt of Rivia
Except Geralt does choose. Because he often has no choice. If he was ever forcibly thrust into political power, he'd be no different to the other Kings of his time prolly too.
I love the phrase 'mental epidemic'. It's very appt for these times too.
Have to say though, although I love all the Herbert Dune books (as well as the flawed Lynch movie but not the Sci-Fi channel series or the bland Villeneuve movie) I do get what Herbert is trying to show with the uncontrollable Jihad slaughterfest across the known Universe of mankind.
However, I just don't buy it that Paul could not stop it.
After all, no one is going anywhere unless the Guild of Navigators say so. And Paul being the Emperor could have asked them to refuse to transport the Jihad's troops from planet to planet. They would be more than happy to comply with this request in order to protect the value of their shares in CHOAM which would have tanked with all the disruption and certainly with 90 planets being sterilized.
If the Fremen Jihad is akin to the 7th century and beyond Islamic Jihads then there are key differences. The Islamic Jihads may have been spurred on by the faith of the Muslims but it was really just powerful warlords using religion as an excuse to conquer other lands. They fought each other and constantly toppled one another's empires within Islam. They even murdered the descendants of Mohamed just a few short years after his own death so that tells you how unified they were.
The Islamic Jihad was unstoppable from within due to the fact that there was no central figure or authority they all had allegiance to. So lots of fires broke out all over the Middle East, North Africa, Persia, Anatolia etc and no one figure was able to control the Jihad efforts.
An example of how central figures could control Jihad is when one caliphate Muslim Warlord sent an order from deep within Saudi Arabia to one of his top generals with instructions to cease expansion (at the time, they didn't believe in going on/over water) and the general obeyed him. So within a contained empire with a leader there were plenty of examples of Jihad not only being controlled but also behaviour being restrained as the conquered people's were given the choice not of conversion or death but conversion or higher taxes.
But Paul was a living God in the eyes of the Fremen and he was the Emperor of the Universe and could have asked the Guild not to allow the Fremen to be transported to other worlds. He could also have call in all the leaders from general level all the way down to sergeant equivalents in the Fremen (Seitch leaders) and ordered them not to go on a conquering rampage.
So yeah, I get how Frank Herbert is showing us the danger of fanaticism etc. But in this actual story it doesn't ring true.
Of course the Fremen were capable of such barbarity, but it doesn't ring true that Paul could not stop or contain the slaughter.
Paul needed to remain Fremen messiah to keep the throne. If he tried to refuse this role after he took the throne, he would have been killed by some enemy or by some fanatical Fremen. From there, the Fremen, by controlling the spice and the Guild, could have launched an even bloodier Jihad in the name of Maud'Dib the martyr.
@@natzbarney4504 Just because the Jihad could have been even worse doesn't mean the one that happened was inevitable.
I get the trop, as seen in 'Atlas Shrugged' where the person in power thinks he controls the people but in fact he is enslaved to the will of the people and he only really has power when he orders them to do what they want to be ordered to do.
But Paul had prescience and he could easily have rooted out any Fremen plot against him.
He could also have kept concentric rings of absolutely loyal Fremen around him so no assassins would get anywhere near him.
After all, Leto 2 was the most hated being in the universe for thousands of years and he easily thwarted all assassination attempts. He only got took out in the end because he allowed it.
@@NR-rv8rz The Jihad was not inevitable from the start, Paul could have avoided it by not manipulating the Fremen into thinking that he is the messiah in first place.
But the first novel make it very clear that by the end, after Paul conquered the throne, there is no way out of the Jihad. Paul's prescience shows him different future path but he can only choose the least bad one. Prescience don't make him immortal. To keep loyal Fremen around him, he need to continue to be this messianic figure. This imply launching the Jihad. Take it the other way: if Paul stop acting like the messiah, he will lose Fremen's support. This is probably what his visions told him.
A major theme of Paul's arc is you can't have both way. The Jihad is the price to pay for using desert power. Paul understands too late that there is simply no way out, once the Fremen saw him as their messiah.
Firstly, It's not interpretations of the book I'm challenging. It's Frank Herbert's rare, poor writing on this matter that I say doesn't ring true. It's a bit lazy for him to just demand that we accept the Jihad was unstoppable. I've detailed plausible reasons how Paul could have halted it in my previous comment. He had the prescience and charisma to convince them to hold off and just live on Arakis attending him as a Fremen Emperor of the universe.
Also, Paul did not have to be the Messiah. As we see later when he rejected it and went into the desert. If he wanted to avoid the Jihad and the only thing stopping him was his fear of losing his messiah status then it's silly to imagine he would allow 60 billion to die just so he could keep that position.
@@NR-rv8rz I respectfully disagree, I think Paul's story is a powerful tragedy, very well written.
Herbert never presents Paul's prescience as an absolute power allowing him to do what he wants. He can only choose from the limited options he sees. And it's explicit in the novel that he can't see everything (there is an Irulan's intro to a chapter where she describes how the visions are often blocked as if there is an hill in front of a road). Prescience does not make him immortal or able to avoid all conspiracies without a price to pay. On the contrary, there is always a price to pay depending on the choices. This is absolutely constant with Paul, for whom Jihad is the price to pay for desert power and who is powerless to prevent Chani's death in Dune Messiah, and it's also true with Leto, later in the saga, for whom the sacrifice of his humanity is the price of the Golden Path.
We must also remember that Paul's charisma and his ascendancy over the Fremen comes mainly from the fact that he perfectly plays the mythological role of their messiah. If he deviates from it (by not launching Jihad for example) it is easy to believe that he will rapidly lose his control over the Fremen.
It must also be remembered that after millennia of Corrino rule, it is inevitable that dynastic change has met with resistance within the Landsraad. Paul therefore needs the support and fighting fervor of the Fremen to keep the throne and, ultimately, life.
As for the personal sacrifice Paul makes at the end of Dune Messiah, he only sees this path after 12 years of Jihad. And to get there he must first condemn the Qizarate and Korba's plot and sacrifice his eyes and his throne to finally end the Jihad. Again, there is a high price to pay.
Are they going to do the whole series in film such as Children Of Dune to God Emperor of Dune and the other novels?
7.02- There was a third option that Paul had, mentioned just once. That was joining the Spacing Guild, where his developing prescience would not be considered out of the ordinary.. As it was mentioned just once, and briefly, there must have been something about it that made him dismiss it instantly, but we are never told why he rejected it. Could it be he saw that, despite the transformation he would eventually undergo, the Jihad, in some form, would still happen? Or did that option end with the loss of Arrakis, the Sandworms, Melange, the extinction of first the Guild, and then the human species?
What is interesting to note is that the Fremen's vision in the first book of a transformed Arrakis didn't take into account that the loss of the desert would end the whole Sandworm life cycle and spice production.. Whilst at the time of writing, the novel served as a warning against charismatic leaders, today, it has a new resonance... the perils of extremism and fanaticism. Both blinker the believer/follower to everything but their own distorted view of the world, so much so that right up to the last moment they fail to see their own demise.
Joining the Guild instead of the Fremen would have avoided Jihad entirely. Paul would have survived without provoking his terrible purpose. Alia would never have become an abomination and a lot of tragedies would have been avoided. For Paul and for the universe, this would have been the good choice, the choice to avoid his terrible purpose. There is no implication that it would have cause human extinction. The Jihad is not a condition for the Golden path.
But Paul also saw how a Guild Navigator is trapped. Seduced by taking the safest route. I've always been intrigued by Guild Navigators
@@natzbarney4504 Leto the 2nd might not have happened under those conditions. It's possible that through in-action, things would've fallen apart regardless.
@@KingOfAceZ1 Sure but another eventual Kwisatz Haderach could have led humanity on the Golden path at some point, without needing a Jihad before that, as another KH breed by the Bene Gesserit would could have got the throne through marriage to a Corrino heiress. But this was not part of Paul's story anyway. The reason Paul choose the desert power (provoking the Jihad despite his intentions) have nothing to do with the GP. And by falling into this trap, Paul succumb to his terrible purpose. His story arc is a tragedy.
@@natzbarney4504 No, you are right, the Jihad was not a condition for the Golden Path... but the Golden Path was necessary to save the human species. We aren't told if Paul had sensed the Golden Path from the start, but personally, I think he was so focused on trying to prevent the Jihad, he didn't look that much further ahead. When he did finally get a good look at it, it appalled him so much he tried to run from it... and left his son to take up the burden.
Feel like the death of his first child helped send him over the edge too.
Along with the death of his father and many of those who served under the banner of House Atriedes. Paul was a hunted young man for two years in the most inhospitable planet, so he did whatever he could in order to survive and deliver his own brand of justice.
just shared an acid house track from 1990 inspired by dune, tore up chemically enhanced dancefoors it did
Now I see why Mr. Herbert used bits of Islamic lore as a base for his books, every civilization that want the middle east gotten push out quickly or brutally from Alexander the great, the US military. And two the people whos comments are on top thank you guy for your service
Thank you, Elaine. I find it sad that Herbert called for the next 20,000 years to be free of democracy. Instead he provides eternal feudalism, which is just a form of slavery. A bit of a bummer. I'm hoping that democracy becomes the only form of government, forever. Despite its many flaws, democracy is better than the known alternatives.
Democracy is the illusion of choice which keeps society stable. My personal conflict is that I wished more realised this but if they did the system might collapse... Which it seems dangerously close to at the moment. Funny how fragile it all seems once you see the strings.
The Dune universe is indeed a futuristic dystopia. Herbert was indeed pessimistic about the future of civilization and believed that the development of large corporations could lead to a form of neo-feudalism.
@@natzbarney4504 actually large corporations usually take over thier governments once they gain enough power which is what fascism is
Usually fascism is confused with authoritarianism which is what everyone hates and thinks they are standing against
I dont think you could attribute feudalism to anything in Dune because nobody really owns the planets and forces the people into servitude except the emperor so it's actually imperialism
Paul just replaced the Emperor and nothing really changed
@@CoinSlotKitty This is feudalism. The emperor do not hold absolute power, the houses of the Landsraad have a big part of the power in the Imperium and have a lot of latitude to govern their planet. Paul replaced this by a tyrannical absolute theocracy.
@@natzbarney4504 I think you need to look up feudalism's definition
Some planets in the imperium were feudal but as a whole the Empire was not
I am impressed how the people from one single planet could capture the universe. Sounds to optimistic for me.
Control over the spice is the key. The Spacing Guild is the biggest lever of control
@@NerdCookies Which still don't explain how one single planet can conqur the whole of the universe
When the entirety of the universe relies on that one planet, they can easily fall under it's control.
@@NerdCookies But that still not explains how the fremen could overrun planets in a groundwar?
I guess I never considered him a bad person until I watched a lot of these internet videos, it killed off his whole family tried to exterminate them and they were doing the same to the Freeman I guess that's as much of a declaration of Wars you can get. War sucks no matter what but it's better to be on The Winning Side
The story is about the Fremen and their ignorance and inability to perceive the consequences of their blind faith.
Is there any character in this story who learns "ends justify the means" is not a good thing?
Bottom line: Don't fkc with House Atreides xD
What level of galactic genocide would have happened anyway? What would have happened if Fayd Rautha ascended to the throne? Perhaps destiny of the scale and magnitude does not belong to one person.
The Fremen most likely still would’ve fought and repelled even if Feyd bested Paul and secured the throne for himself. Paul’s death would’ve been all the catalyst they needed to launch their jihad in his name. By that point he was already a legend in their eyes (besides Chani and the Southern non-fundamentalist)
What is your favorite cookie?
Paul’s Jihad, the original Unexpected Jihad
The dangers of enigmatic leaders!!
Thanks!
Thanks for the support! 😊
Great video
The Dune franchise, in so many ways, is a cyclical tragedy.
The Golden path the necessity of it only makes sense if there are extraterrestrial threats to Humanity. what is the purpose of strengthening the human position in the Universe if not for a nonhuman threat.
Humanity is quite capable of destroying itself on its own. I would even say that the self-destructive behavior of humanity is one of the themes that Hebert explores in Dune. One of the goal of the Golden path is to put an end to this kind of self-destructive behavior. That said, the Jihad of Muad'Dib has nothing to do with the Golden Path.
so, if paul being the Kwisatz Haderach is accepted as true, why is he considered a manufactured prophet/messiah? i don't get it...
Missionaria Protectiva on arrakis
It's only true because the bene gesserit MADE it true. Don't you get the message? The Kwisatz Haderach is not some holy messiah, it IS a manufactured messiah.
The bottom line is that it will end badly for Paul, but the universe and mankind will go on...
I’ve always painted the messaging here to be muddled. On the one hand Paul is painted as a cautionary tale about not trusting charismatic saviors. But at other times the story feels like it’s trying to excuse Paul’s actions. He’s not a false prophet he’s just caught up in inevitable fate. Also the concept of the Golden Path seems to justify his and Leto II’s actions as necessary evil that ultimately does lead to humanity’s long term salvation. Seems like Herbert wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
That is the duality of his situation: on one end, fate, something he cannot escape one way or another, and that would absolve him of that choice. on the other, there is still human part of this as every choice, even guided by fate, takes a toll on a human making it. He may be absolved of the burden of choice, but he'll have to live with the consequences, and that weighs on him heavily. Truly a meta-level in tragic writing: he's bound by fate, so that he can make humanity relinquish being bound by fate.
The story is about the Fremen and their ignorance and inability to perceive the consequences of their blind faith.
I view it like this, we only know of the golden path from Leto II's say so. HE say's it is necessary, and has launched it for 3400 years, so there's no way going off it now. But just because he has future vision doesn't mean he is morally or ethically sound. There very much could be a case made for Leto just being another tyrannical egotistical leader, just like how the universe viewed him.
Following the golden path to avoid humanity's extinction is a proposed path, with the most likely hood of success and so most readers have just accepted that conclusion. But even if there are other less successful alternatives, doesn't mean they can't be tried. It's like saying we need to euthanise all children with genetic deformities because they will increase the probability of future generations of genetically deformed children. It can be done, but SHOULD it be done?
I'm curious, why did Frank Herbert use the word "jihad" to describe the holy war instead of the term holy war
What is the difference between the two words?
Or should I say three?
In a nutshell, because parts of todays religions survived. We also know why Frank Herbert chose that specific word instead of crusade(though that word is sometimes used too) or holy war. It is because of the messianic impulse and near apocalyptic violence that sometimes accompanies it. Now with a word like the crusades you've got the second part down, but less the messianic part (which is much more prevalent in islamic societies). Holy war simply doesn't really cover it and does feel a whole lot intense.
Now in terms of the universe of Dune, it's not ahrd to image a word with such strong associations (both 'good' and 'bad') being passed down generations with much of it's initial concept still intact.
Also you have to remember Frank Herbert did not have the same associations with the word Jihad that we have in the modern day, in the 50's and 60's it was seen in quite a different light both in the west as well as the east.
The Fremen religion comes from a blending and transformation of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam. The concepts of Mahdi and Jihad already exists in Islam Sunni. Moreover, the cultural roots of the Fremen are also clear in their language, in which one can recognize a lot of words of Arabic origin.