How To Design A Soviet Aircraft (And Avoid The Gulag)
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- It is tempting to imagine the big names in Soviet aircraft design to be just like those in the West: big, integrated companies that conceived, designed, constructed and maintained combat aircraft. But the Soviet military-industrial complex was actually rather different in structure to that in the West. This video summarises how aircraft design evolved after the Revolution and how the Soviet aircraft industry was structured.
instructions unclear. I am currently sitting in the back of a truck with my whole family and we are going "somewhere"
Yea but you have Finn in your name, what did you except?
"Stop talking and dig the hole, Comrade!"
To a winter wonderland vacation
There’s a story in which the guys in the back had to tell the new NKVD officers where they are going
@@kden9772lmao
Remember that time they asked Richard Nixon about the financing of air-to-ground missiles? That evening he said his famous quote: "Air to ground? Huh, not a pound." It truly marked a moment in history.
People don't know that Nixon was part of the Fighter Mafia.....
For anyone interested in seriously-deep-diving into Soviet OKBs, there were an excellent series of books on each design bureau published in the UK by Midland Publishing in the late 1990s and early noughties. Titled “OKB (add bureau name)” they were mostly authored by Yefim Gordon.
I've heard of that author.
Yefim Gordon is a garant for high quality. I have several books from him, all are amazing
Y.Gordon books are mostly outdated today. They contain information, which was avaliable back in 90s, and they also often politically anticipated (which is not something bad for western readers, I guess, but I don't like it)
@@TK57477While I do understand that people of a different system provenance prefer a differing evaluation on the economic system, history has shown that capitalism - despite its clear shortcomings - is the generally more sustainable system under which people of free will can organise their economic activity. Also, we should not forget, that literature compiled on the far side of the iron curtain would just as freely utilise predictive evaluation to put capitalist (usually "imperialist" or "oppressive") activities in its place.
I’ve corresponded with Gordon a few times as we a share a subject interest. However, as of a couple years ago, he refuses to work with Westerners.
Lubyanka, the tallest building in Moscow - you can see Siberia from the basement.
Thank you as always for the research and presentation; these are a treat.
Good one!
I would love a video about the shenanigans that occurred in the Soviet aviation industry. Like the Su-15 "modification" that turned into the Su-24 and the Tu-22M being named like that just to get picked over the T-4.
Not unique to the USSR. That happened in the US too, the A-7 was one. Vought claimed it was based on the F-8 and shared parts making it cheaper to procure & operate. That was effectively not true.
@@williammagoffin9324
T-58 (fighter-bomber version of Su-15) and T-6 (Su-24 prototype without wings with changing geometry) are two totally different projects with different characteristics, meant for two different users btw.
Animarchy is working on a magnum opus of just that. He already has the first part out if you want a deeper dive into the batshit craziness of Soviet Aeronautical Engineering
@@TK57477 I know Sukhoi pitched one of those to the Air Force as a "modification of the Su-15" to get around a ban on new designs at the time. Sadly I don't have Samoilovich's book at hand to check which one it is.
"The system was formidable," just as researching, writing and creating this video must have been formidable! My brain hurts. Well done!
There is no avoiding the Gulag. You just need to know the right people to get into the good gulag, where you can work normally and not starve.
aka a "closed city." 😅
@@Yaivenov It makes sense. In Soviet Russia, you research harder with no distractions. Prison offers that.
If we summarize all the cases of researchers going into 'sharashkas' (enclosed research institutes managed by the Ministry of the Interior, not labor camps in Siberia), we can work out some simple rules, how to avoid being GULAGged:
1. Do not steal from the goverment (Kerber's case)
2. Do not use dedicated goverment money on non-dedicated projects (Korolyov case)
3. Do not forge successful reports (Tupolev&Petlyakov case)
4. Do not take part in failed military coup d'etats (Bartini, Neman, Kurchevski case)
In short - don't f*ck with the goverment and everything will be OK. This rule applies to the modern Russia as well.
Unless you're MiG and your brother is on the politboro....
@@TK57477 you also forgot the scenario when your coworker/neighbor/boss/subordinate falsely accuses you for personal reasons and gets you sent to the gulag.
It's kind of funny, so I was looking at My homepage on RUclips and saw this video at the top of it and finally realized that even though while I've been at work over the last couple weeks, I've definitely watched or listened to a bunch of your videos while I'm programming CNC machines. And it wasn't until just now that I finally subscribed. So there's your plus one to make it a good Friday. Have a great day! I super enjoy the hard work
I got to see TWO new NAPFATG videos in one day! What a treat!
This is something I've suspected for a very long time, but I'm so glad to finally have an answer!
"I got to see TWO new FAPNUT videos in one day! What a treat!"
- You, 2024
@@nickkorkodylas5005 -- No, I believe I said something else. :)
завод or Zavod means 'Factory' in Russian. Technically every factory at that point had a generic title 'Factory Number xyz' so on
When the Brits had issues designing new stuff because of the demands of long range, high speed, RAF Vs Naval needs all on the budget of £10.... Soviet designers say "Hold My Vodka"
Yeah, but we did end up with the Hunter, Vulcan, Buccaneer, Lightning, and Tornado with enough left over for a pint and bag of chips on the way home.
Sorry Vlad, did you drop your vodka? 😂
@@Anmeteor9663 we also equipped the FAA with the er fairey swordfish biplane and then built 2000 of them, flying them till the end of the war. My favourite quote of the bucc was that of an ex USAF buddy of mine - "only the brits could put that much power into a plane and make it subsonic". Blackburn were a disaster of a company when it came to original designs and their tooling was pretty stone age too, when in the 1950s they had to go begging to the USA for something a little more contemporary.
also you could write a whole volume of waste with the RAF vs RN + FAA. Is why for decades the RAF obsessed with deep strike missions. It cuts out the army + royal navy.
@@Anmeteor9663 I'm pretty convinced that for country that had so much potential in aerodynamics, engineering and aircraft manufacturing as yours bringing up something like the Buccaneer and Lightning is a shame and there is nothing to be proud of when speaking of them. They were simply a targets for practice, listed as low tier in VVS instructions to airmen. Sorry to say that. UK had a lot of more interesting projects.
@@mrrolandlawrencetry designing anything other than the Fairey Swordfish which could get on and off a carrier in the North Atlantic under average conditions (until they invented the helicopter which has done the job ever since).
@@pcka12 the americans designed many fine aircraft during WW2 that fit on small escort carriers. better specification requirements too.
for a country "leading the world in aviation", a 1920s biplane on a 1940s carrier as the primary plane was tragic. so ,many people and resources were just wasted.
i feel sad for fairey though. after WW2, though backchannel golden handshakes - their land was forcibly acquired by the gov to create heathrow airport. & when fairey did get something great like the delta - the gov were not interested. the research data was sold to the french who then created one of the most successful fighter jet families of all time - the mirage.
In Soviet Russia, government controls arms manufacturer!
in the US, arms manufacturer controls the government! LOL
The avoiding the gulag is no joke. Under Stalin that happened to a lot of scientists and designers. That was a real fear for Soviet designers.
The increased frequency of video releases is impressive, keep up the good work
I had read Planeman's old /K/ Planes blogs on the various OKBs, but it didn't go into how they were created/a top-down overview like this. This was bloody fascinating!
You consistently create indepth and interesting videos on very under. Lover topics. Thank you, they are very enjoyable.
"Snappy and succinct".
The driest of wits, our "Not a Pound". Forever may he remain so.
I really do need to get to work. This is a sign from god.
"It better fly or we're gonna die."
- Soviet designers, somewhere.
You rock dude love your videos.
MiG-1/3 is in fact Polykarpov's design (Po-lee-carp-off, btw)
I was looking for this comment.
Never heard of 'Poliakov'...
Polikarpov Po 2 (dwa) = Kukuruznik!
@@RaduB. it's a difficult combination of letters unless one understands Russian names and Christian history. Polycarp, the Apostle John's protege combined with ov, "son of"
On your great video spotlighting the Mig-15, another viewer commented: "The wing fences were designed to keep the airflow from defecting" or words to that effect....
Why quote someone else's comment from another video?...
@@RedTail1-1 Because it's a funny quote and I believe in giving credit where it's due.
Absolutely first rate content. Really well thought out and informative.
Thanks for all your hard work. I really enjoy your videos.
In 16:00 it's a different Yakovlev, A.N. Yakovlev, government official during Perestoika. Aircraft designer was A. S. Yakovlev.
Great video, as usual, you are the best in this field!
But please check the end of the video which ends a little too abruptly.
Great presentation, great research as always. Would love to know your sources. Suggest Korolev as a future subject. A fascinating and perplexing story.
Reasonable and in depth presentation, thank you very much!
as an avid aviation hiystory freak/nerd/enthousiast, i am always amazed by the quality of the research and comentary! you are the best out there!
2:00 Snappy and succinct!
It just rolls off the tongue.
So NCOMP went nowhere and was completely NCOMPitent 😂😂😂
Great video and very detailed.
@Not A Pound For Air To Ground you mention the Mig-29's inherent flaws in the design. Do you have a source for this or a video explaining? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious how the soviets ended up with a multi engine light fighter whereas the US ended up with a single engine one and one with two smaller engines.
well done
this is such a fine presentation
Interesting video. Always been curious how the Soviet system differed from the American.
I do have a question though. Like you said, the lead designers were usually put on such a pedestal that the world thinks of them when one of their aircraft is mentioned.
But what was their real contribution to a design? You touched a little on it. But, was it more of an admin kind of thing? i.e. Answering the phone and getting the political officers good vodka.
More of a Western style of deciding what direction they were taking in the future? Or, did they actually get involved and really work on designs like Kelly Johnson?
Amazing. The Soviet air design was even more political and incestuous than ours!
YEEESSSSSS!!!!! THANK YOU TONS
What was the result in the Soviet Avaition community from the Treaty of Rapallo signed with the Germans?
Well done - a long overdue video! Would like to see you do one on the organisation of Japanese aviation R & D pre/WW2.
From the thumbnail, I briefly thought NAPFAG had dome something specific to the MiG 23; which might be a bit of a double-edged sword, as it has a seemingly. and inexplicably large group of YT evangelists.
The phenomenon is actually very easy to explain - it's a combination of War Thunder memes and the fact that the MiG-23 looks totally badass, which in turn draws a lot of nerds to it.
@@maxkircher4671 The 23 also has a lot of slander leveled at it from performance in export versions. It's Soviet service was respectable.
That pile of scrap...it's almost ok for something. I Still, think Ford secretly designed for mig.
@SuperMegaCyrus, I disagree...walks free before getting near gulag.
@@SuperMegaCyrus Sure, and I agree with you that it was a perfectly serviceable fighter jet (with a decent GCI network and logistics support behind it it could be brilliant).
But the significance of that is incidental to the fact that it looks Metal as all hell. There would not be nearly as many people defending its honour if it looked lame - a few to be sure, but not masses. Only awesome looking planes get such large numbers of nerds passionate about them.
Josef Stalin. Or: How _paranoia_ ultimately ruins your own military.
He won the war.....so everything he'd done was vindicated!
What is the name of that prototype at 12:15? Google Lens AI is stumped, and so am I.
I think it is the Sukhoi SU-VRD
@@maxsmith3138 that's it, thanks fam!
Max is correct. The image in question can be found on the Fantastic Plastic website.
@22:56 Wow!
Superb. Thanks!
Is it me or did this very interesting video cut off a bit abruptly?
What are the "severe conceptual problems" of the MiG-29? Short range?
I think that the Soviet system of separate design and production could also be applied to military equipment. Design companies could receive license agreements and production facilities could apply to produce a number of products from a national defense catalogue. Obviously the more confidential models/products would be only available to vetted companies.
It is only a matter of a legal framework.
instructions unclear, My factory makes washing machines, traktor model 4, nuclear missile guidance systems and for some reason something called a soft-serve machine, we are not sure what this is used for
8:06 definitely NOT a photoshopped picture.
The Russians. I swear to god. What a pinhead mindset. Can you imagine the story of US Aviation design if it went to the tune of "Kelly Johnson, now working from Leavenworth because he voted Republican..."
Only Russians, folks.
Well, actually, nowadays I can. Also, same shit was in Germany and Italy and Spain , if not worse, and is still present in China.
@iansysoev9462 don't see Republicans trying to prosecute their political opponents.
Isn't that what the 2025 project thing is supposed to be about?@@brothergrimaldus3836
well, at least Petlyakov and Tupolev wasn't shot by 'robbers' when exiting his apartment, I guess, just like a myriad of prominent ex-Soviet scientists after the collapse of the USSR. We've lost a lot of perspective scientific themes, when the researchers were killed. The same thing happens for decades with Iranian and Chineese scientists, BTW. Ask Mossad about it :) Your goverments never play by any rules, neither now, nor back in the day, so precaution is OK :)
@@brothergrimaldus3836 democrats and republicans both do that, to a differing degree of success, they're just good at covering their traces
it's so depressing listening to this. especially as i live in the uk in 2024. 😮💨😔
what
I think the idea of putting designers into Gulags died with Stalin. While the Soviet Union was by no means free it is a mistake to think it worked like it did under Stalin for its whole existence
One of the little things I found amusing watching the "Americans" spy thriller was how the older KGB officers were so traumatized by the Stalin period, and would often tell the younger agents how glad they were to be alive now and not know what it was like. These are KGB/NKVD officers saying this; can't even imagine what it was like for the regular run of folks.
I had always wondered about how their system came to be.
Political tyrannical , security suspension , western sanctions, and general poverty.. are the main obstacles front Soviet-Russian aviation development.
Not really. It's more like 'low industrial basis, devastating apocalypse-like war and urge to rebuild after German invasion'. Come on, what you declare it's like shooting an athlete to the leg and then blaming him. It's a miracle our country managed to keep pace somehow for so long.
The gulag is other people.
Ik one thing...russia loves acronyms and bureaus more than america does
In Soviet Russia,
You don't build plane.
Plane builds YOU!
With that system where the state's power is the first priority I'm surprised the soviets managed to make any kind of decent aircraft.
What was the metal referenced in the video?
Czar factories were actually more like small assembly sheds of western aircraft, driven by enthusiasts. There was no aviation science, no engine engineering, no avionics. Almost nothing. Czar was too busy having fun with his ballet dancer lovers that he didn't mind building any aviation industry at all. When soviets came to power, everything needed to be built from scratch, very fast, relying on poor industrial basis of early USSR and most important - the product must be comparable to the product of industrial developed countries as US, UK and the Reich. And it was acheived in some way during the war (enough to win the war) and was totally acheived after the war (enough to prevent nuclear annihilation and genocide by NATO bombers). Of course it took an immence struggle, it was very hard for the country and for the people, but it was done and it saved my country from yours :) We can clearly say that these 'gulags' allowed us to survive as a nation.
My ansestors made their contribution to this epic movement as a part of OKB Yakovlev, never in jail, nobody was repressed. They've had only respect, high awards, high paycheck and even a small mansion. Isn't it an acheivement to be respected? As a native Russian, I can tell a lot about 'repressions' and 'gulags', but I'm pretty sure I won't be heard here, as It seems to me that US/UK people doesen't respect anybody exept themselves and their opinion. So be it, maybe it's even for the better.
I don't think you need gulags and executed designers any more than Western industry needed massacres of striking workers. Stalin ending up in control of the USSR was a shame.
But, the many people who idiotically chant "communism never works" need to think about the facts you bring: from dirt floors to beating Hitler, to the MiG-15 etc, in a few decades, with the Nazis doing their worst (as opposed to an ocean between you and the fighting, and all the wealth of England pouring into your banks).
Capitalism is a superior system? Tell that to the British. Tell it to the French (who have had a strong industry since the late 40s, under a fairly socialist set up).
So, before WW1 ALL aircraft factories were just bicycle sheds assembling kits. Everywhere. It was a totally new industry being built by enthusiasts who may or may not have any idea what they were doing. Czarist Russia was at the exact same level in that regard as everywhere else.
@@RIVERSTYX1981 He doesn't know what Orville & Wilbur were doing!
@@MM22966 Maybe, but can we take a moment to realise that the one of the biggest drivers of USSR/Russian advancement post WW2 was the reverse engineering of NATO equipment? Like, you don't earn respect for making a low res photocopy of the Mona Lisa.
@@RIVERSTYX1981 In cases such as this time is crucial. Wright Flyer flew in 1903. WWI started 11 years later. At that point, US had the aviation industry. Czar Russia had almost nothing, as first aircraft facility was built on fall 1913. There was still no production of aircraft engines and still no aviation science at all. WWI and Civil War atrocities crippled even what was made by the czar, leaving the country with nothing, so first VVS aircraft were trophys from UK, US and French intervention forces. Also Soviet Russia bought some Fokker aircraft. The first aircraft type of famous Russian pilot Valerii Chkalov was a Fokker.
Cold War Soviet aircraft have NATO fittings for use of NATO airfield ground equipment on NATO airfields ......
Well, USSR wanted to join NATO at one point
not really, they are not compatible in any way. Different sizes, different voltages etc.
I don’t think that’s true at all - please elaborate…?
@@iansysoev9462 Their “application” to NATO was part of an ironic joke to try to highlight examples of Western hypocrisy and attempt to gain the friendship of Governments from non-aligned nations around the world.
@@TK57477 Eric Johnson owns M-23's .....all of his have nato fittings.....
Nice
In Russian, if a sentence will make the point, use a whole paragraph
What the hell was that?
"Nationalizing the aircraft factories was largely pointless..." So you suggest there is something better to do with bunch of looted factories each 500km apart staffed by peasant, three kids and moldy sandwich?
16:00 lol wrong yakovlev
Looks like him. Just a lot older.
One thing i see clearly that countries struggle with, even the USA would have struggled if wasn't for their lies was sourcing rare material to make their jets. Australia after WW2 couldn't get enough resources especially farmers building sheds. I was surprised on effort to maintain F111 n F18
Australians could not build sheds? What are you talking about?
@@MM22966 after WW2 there were farmers struggling get any metal as there was shortage in supply. There sheds made out of 44 gallon drums flattern out as sheet panels.
@@user-qi8ns1fo5d Ahhh, you meant wartime metal rationing. Interesting. I have seen pics of the same technique used in Afghanistan, only they flatten soda cans and weave them together into shingles.
@@MM22966 yes wartime rations, one building was shearing shed that still stands in good condition over nearly 70 years old. Uncle shearing shed 1920 like Pa old horse stables now storing farm equipment, it's amazing how well built these sheds the farmers built them.
@@user-qi8ns1fo5d I assume they mailed them to a wood backing?
5:40 URSS, not USSR, first time seeing that
Except nobody spells it that way.
@@MM22966Well then click on the fucking timestamp Mr knowitall
@@MM22966the french do 💀
Actually I think every latin country does
@@mdioxd9200 Yeah, bu the Latins put everything out of order! (according to people who speak English, lol)
@@MM22966 The joke is that in french you can technically say "Union des soviétiques et socialistes républiques", it's actually gramatically correct, but sounds kinda "old" to the french speaker, since in usual language the position of the adjective has been (mostly) moved to after the subject
Clear as mud...
The correct title of the video: How to talk nonsense for 24 minutes about how to design a Soviet aircraft
The video is a good introduction into the makings of the soviet aircraft production. As it is common from a westerner so full of himself it is impossible to him acknowledge the undeniable achivments of the socialist system.
Ironically enough such a "fundamentally flawed" system, like he says, completely overshadows the UK cold war aircraft quality and quantity.
@@fabianviales4825 This is a terrible introduction made by a person who does not understand the topic but tries to explain it to others. There are factual errors (for example, Lavochkin died in 1960 and not in 1969), but the main thing is the lack of a common understanding of this topic. The role of the aircraft designer's personality in the Soviet aircraft industry was very significant. Tupolev, who was imprisoned in the late 30s, categorically refused to create a jet intercontinental bomber in the late 40s, and it was impossible to force him to do this (although Stalin was still alive and he did not like Tupolev's stubbornness). The jet intercontinental bomber was created by Myasishchev because he was a completely different personality compared to Tupolev.This is something that does not fit into the understanding of the creator of this video. From his point of view, Tupolev should have just been put in the GULAG once more and he would have designed a jet bomber.
@@ka-bot15achannelaboutaviation book recommendations?
say what you will about socialism when it comes to basic human rights, but it is very good at bootstrapping your tech level up from almost nothing
At the expense of everything else. The only way the soviets could reach technological parity (in only a handful of industries) was by min/maxing their entire economy around it, ultimately leading to the country imploding due to mass unrest.
@@SkylineFTW97 being at war since day one and being the victim of the largest invasion in history, plus the combined effort of the rest of the world to topple you does that to a country
@@1KosovoJeSrbija1 This continued well into peacetime when they were the hegemon of the east. It can't be used as an excuse after that. Even China which inherited that role had to pivot to a more mixed economy to sustain and improve their growth.
They confiscated grain in Ukraine to pay for imported Western machinery. When you throw millions of lives away it's not hard.
Bro just wtf, in terms of human rights ussr might as well be utopia compared to 20s usa where you might get lynched for wrong skin color.
When you people find out how soviets sorted out the 40k living conditions of post Czarist Russia, you might get jelous of government that actually does something useful.
your assessment of the faults of the Soviet system of procurement
also applies to the western military industrial complex, *plus* the
other problems that you listed as inherent to that system.
offend the wrong person in that system and you’ll find yourself on the outside pdq.
maybe not in a prison, but still, you'll be out of a job.
"It's exactly the same and I won't elaborate"
"Fine, it's not the same, it's just similar okay?"
What kinda cope is this?