I must agree with Mr.Spock: FASCINATING! Can you two ever do an episode I don't need to see over and over and still save it so I can look at it again later? I love you guys! .. Much ❤ from 🇸🇪.
Good job. I like that you are comparing ground tracks and VMG. While sailing an informal drag race between a 45 foot cruising cat and a 45 foot cruising monohull in 2004 upwind I realized that VMG to windward was king. Pointing is just one variable in the mix. Pointing is less important than upwind VMG unless you are trying to sail upwind in a constricted waterway which cruisers almost never do. I often have to argue this point in discussions with other sailors who have not thought it through.
Very well explained..! The heeling factor makes sense; in a monohull, as the wind speed increases, its energy is spilled as the boat heels. But with a flat-sailing catamaran, that does not happen, so the sails take the full force. So they will wear out and get baggy. Which means you're gonna go sideways a lot when the wind is coming from anywhere apart from behind you. I wonder if a Junk (fully battened lugsail) rig has been applied to a cat. It's never going to win races but you reef easily, and less stress on a mast than all this kevlar at vast cost and rolling-furling headsails, a fucking right handful when the wind pipes up suddenly.
Thanks Nick, this was very educative! And Wow! The facts about the tacking angles really got me. Didn't expect the laminates to be sooooo much better. Thanks for sharing your knowledge💪
AS a pilot I am surprised you have not THOURLY examines the ridiculous lack of the attention to the sorely attended 3 Catagories of Keels ,centerboards & daggerboards I would love have a discussion on the virtues of these 3 vrs The 4th NEW catagory: SCABBOARDS.....let me educate you ,like you educated the Sailors in this video
In the marketing world today everything has to be priced cheaper than the next guy. "You get what you paid for for" is only looked at the moment of purchase and performance over the long haul is not considered anymore. All things considered you probably are money ahead even if you paid more now with the added bonus of good performance. Thanks for sharing
Gentlemen don’t sail to weather! But seriously people believe that good sails are only for racing but there are crucial for a cruising boat. Oh, one more thing, when you raise the sail, don’t pull down, rather pull out (like drawing a bow and then down together with your wife pulling the tail then. It's way more efficient and better for your back (15 years racing, ask me how I know).
You did a great job landing that plane Nick. you did a very good job explaining how to trim your sails on a catamaran for up wind. Clarity looked like she's ready to take off beautifully done sir great job by the mate working the ropes
My original main on my Leopard was on there when I bought the boat and I sailed with it for another 6 years before some tearing started. I did 20 000nm with mine. My new sails are now in place and I do love the huge low friction rings used on the sails. I’m sure this will be easier on the sails over time. Can’t wait to start our Atlantic crossing in a few weeks to see them in action over a long period.
Thanks for a great video. Sure, sailboats are all about foils. I think the most common mistake people make with sails in replacing them is to go back and order sails from the loft the factory uses and order sails just like they had when new. In many cases what you get is a sail meant for the charter trade, presentable but not performance. Many people also shop for lowest cost sails. Both mistakes. Speaking with a sail designer and having sails made specifically for your boat and your style of sailing is money well spent, Dacron or laminate.
Funny statement - "Hey, what's the rush? It's not a race..." Until sails are spotted, going the same heading... And the race begins! Great video! Thanks!
@Echo - that would likely increase cost and weight - enough - even to reduce performance, yet maybe they last longer. The laminates seem like a better option - so long as they stay laminated longer.
Hi , Nick and Megan , Thank you , long time for my answer , this video tells you why you will go to 100.000 Subscribers. Educational , Happy , Uplifting , Funny , Straightforward , Loving , and easily 20 minutes , without blinking i look at your videos with a smile on my face . Be Happy always , Love , See you , Enjoy 🙂😊
Very nice teacher. Agree 100% on the laminate sail performance. We kept both on out monohull sloop to use them in different settings but understand that in the Sail area that you have that isn’t an option.
Great video! I had an old sail on my monohull for 3 years and did not realize it was the sail that was causing the excess heeling and slow speed. I considered myself a good sailor and good at trim but could never get any performance out of the boat. Now I know why. Thanks a million (or at least several thousand...).
Very informative and informative. This is how much time had to be spent on collecting and summarizing the information provided. Thanks for the release.
I enjoyed the tech side, retired Mechanical Engineer, glad you talked about how import sails are for cruisers, it’s their “engine”! Need to be taken care of and serviced, washed, dried regularly, in the sail bag, or folded and stored properly. If owners forked out serious funds for a main, they’d be more likely to take care of it. Fair winds⛵️😎
Your logic is spot on my Vulcan friend! Once again nothing but quality and I just love your music, your filming and your intelligent content, not to mention your new sleeping quarters. That's why I am s sub of yours!! Good luck, fair winds and I look forward to the next show.
Great video! I am eager to try out the sails on our new-to-us Knysna 440, which I am told "crab sails", and does not point into the wind whatsoever. We shall see.
Awesome vid again..it has taken me awhile to warm to you guuys...but i kept watching..and now i learn so much about sailing..and i enjoy your vids..Cheers Bazz
Man, that was an awesome video! I'm a former Naple Sabot, Laser, Tornado, Nacra 6.0 and Nacra 5.8 as well as many other boats that I've crewed on including Defender and Courageous (12 meter Americans Cup), TeVega 165 ft. gaff rigged schooner and Taxi Dancer. I also grew up in a junior racing sailing program from 7 or 8 years of age all the way through my senior year of high school. It honestly was the best time in my life. You taught me a few things that I didn't fully understand and explained it incredibly well. Thank you! I haven't been sailing in about 15 years but the last time I went was a race in Newport Beach, CA where I entered The Flight of the Laser's and was the first one to the first mark, the second to the second mark and ended up with a 6th place finish. I was really fast up wind but chocked on the down wind because of my weight. I was a little heavy at the time. This race if you know about it has hundreds of boats on the starting line at the same time for one race. I'm planning on getting a Schionning catamaran and taking it to the tropics because I miss sailing a lot and need to get back out on the water again.
Taxi Dancer! Wow! That’s pretty cool! Have seen photos of the Flight in Newport, but never in person. Really appreciate the kudos. It’s so hard to do tech vids because you can bore people with too much and bore them with too little. Hope that one met the mark….get it…? Lol thanks for the note
Cool to see you still fly! We are in George Town with port engine problems...feeling envious of any vessel with sails at this point. That being said, I have been broken down in worse places!
I've seen people down at the marina with sails so blown out they have sewn patches into the sails and run stringer lines to center points that tie to a free floating ring over a line. I don't know how they sail like that and honestly they probably don't and just use the motor to putt around the bay. My favorite is when people go to get on their boats after it's been sitting a long time snd they start raising the sails and rats or mice come tumbling down the sails, long streaks of rodent urine, poop and bedding material come flying out to cover the other boats.
Great job on the video Nick and Megan....so that's why you won the tacking race at Marsh, you had the secret weapon. The red track looks like my effort! lol
Yet another insightful course at O'Kelly University, weaving together concepts from many different disciplines. You could literally package all of your video explanations into a full semester worth of presentations.
@@TheOKellys Oh, sorry I got your masters subject matter wrong and I appreciate the correction. Answer- you told us, I don't remember if it was video or a podcast. You're the best on weather. Thanks.
I'd think about rolling up the sail canvas when going upwind... You're the only American channel left in my Abo's. Always some interesting stuff to hear about cats.
Another great video. When I was younger I got a chance to take the north sails fast course . Your explanation of sailing techniques does you proud. Keep up the good work.
that was probably the most even-handed review of sails I have seen across the interweb. One point - the value proposition for sails is that "value= initial purchase price over the time the sail will retain its shape " with the critical determinant being the ability of the cloth to retain its shape. - I don't think it will be too long before you think of doing the same with your headsail.
I know. And the jib is twisting off terribly. But to really put a better jib to use, we really need to do some hardware mods to get the sheet leads further up. I’ll chat with Ullman, see what ideas they might have
Really much better the catamaran than mono hul boat. And i am dreamin to have a catamaran for sailing around the world someday. Watching from naic cavite. Philippines.
Drag on sailboats is dominated by induced drag, both of the sails and the hulls. With daggerboards, the induced drag is very roughly equal between the two. Without daggerboards, the induced drag of the hulls will totally dominate. Cruising cats get their bad reputations because * many don't have daggerboards or don't drop them when they should, and * there's so much clearance between the sails and the ocean surface that, combined with maximum AoA at the bottom of the sail, you get a huge vortex off the bottom of the sail. The first problem is that the "span" of your hull in the water is the depth, which is tiny, maybe 80 cm. Induced drag is (lift/span)^2/dynamic pressure/e/pi. e and pi are constants, so forget about them. A daggerboard that extends just 160 cm further into the water cuts induced drag by a factor of 9. You'll do better than just sail with a smaller leeway angle... you'll sail faster too. The second problem is why jibs and head sails do so well compared to main sails... they have less of a gap to the ocean surface, so less wind is able to slip under the bottom of the sail. Jibs will often be in actual contact with the deck several meters back from the stay. Mains have a hard boom which has to clear a roof as well as anything above it, like Clarity's raised helm roof, so lots of gap.
@@TheOKellys Oh cool you're a meteorologist! The Reynold's number for a 46 foot boat in 68 F water at 8 knots is 57 million. Momentum totally dominates viscosity, right? Let me calculate it out for your boat. I'm going to guess 8 knots boat speed (8500 Pa dynamic pressure) in 13 knots of wind (27 Pa dynamic pressure), apparent angle 30 degrees off the bow. Hopefully that's close enough. Your 46 Leopard has around 1000 feet^2 of sail area. It's got a fair bit of camber, I'll guess you can get a lift coefficient of 1.5 out of it. In 13 knots of wind that's 3200 N of lift. That's 1600 N of surge and 2800 N of sway just from lift. Total sway is actually 3200 N because you pick up almost 400 N from the induced drag off the sail, and there's probably a bit more off the hull that I haven't counted. All that sway has to be reacted with the keel. Your keel is 135 cm draft (I looked it up), which is a lot more than I'd guessed, so now comes the part where I look dumb. 260 N of induced drag of the keel, 16% of thrust. Induced drag off the sail is 745 N, 645 N of which is boat drag, 40% of thrust. I guessed 18 m span and e=0.5 because the span loading is so asymmetrical. At 56% of thrust, induced drag is a tiny bit bigger than parasitic drag. I hadn't realized your keel was that big. With such a large Reynold's number, I wonder where the rest of your drag is. Is it base drag off the tail? It's hard to eyeball how much area below the waterline you have exposed at the back.
ruclips.net/video/zCpVfFDYfWE/видео.html Look at the mess coming off the bottom of the sails. Also, I was even more wrong. That hull induced drag number should be cut in half, because there's only one vortex off the bottom and nothing at the top. So 8% of thrust. Total induced drag is 48% of thrust and it's not even the majority of drag any more. Ooops.
It will really be interesting to see how it holds up to the elements over time. UV is always a killer regardless... I like your comment on the sail and tradeoff between them. Good point, sales are really a wearing part and need to be replaced on a reoccurring plan like your engine example. So, more frequently with a sale that lasts only 1 to 2 seasons, or every 4 to 5 years with a more expensive version. (that is assuming your sale does not last longer) Also, would love to see you find another Leopard and see if they can follow you, and what issues you or they, run into. Great content! And yes, a certain sail maker should be sending you chocolate. And by chocolate I mean.....
Our previous laminate held shape for 7 seasons. This current dacron sail was good on Clarity for ....maybe 2-2.5. So....yeh, there is some math involved.
Nick, Thanks again for an awesome presentation. Your bang on about Sails. Money spent now on great sail will provide you with big bonuses over the lifetime of the sail.
One might say, the Laminate Sail is also more environmental friendly but that's wrong. Dacron is a fibre with no glue, Laminate Sails can't be recycled as the glue can't be separated from the fibres. That's a thing also to consider.
Excellent video! You have exposed that only those last few degrees are really only lost to the lift from the underwater appendage, which is probably caused mostly by mindset. I find it appropriate to mention that most live aboard mono hull sailers are also taking the same penalty, but don’t seem to honestly report it. I can imagine some ( more) trash talking already. Again, well done!
Thanks For the Very informative Vlog on sails .. I really enjoyed it and am on my 2nd time watching it .. can’t begin to tell you how much I appreciate you sharing your experience with real data for comparison .. I love getting 100% performance out of a good sail and getting a cruiser what I call ‘up on the keels’ going up wind is such a great feeling ..
I noticed you guys are from Portland Oregon, we are also from Oregon. I've been trying to find a good local boat to go out on and get some experience sailing. We want to start a ourney of our own living full time on a boat.
I'll be sailing in the next few years and maybe catch up with you all out there. As a pretty bright guy with zero sailing experience right now, the performance aspect was, admittedly over my head. Lol! I'm sure the current or prior sailors were able to follow along though. I'll shelve this episode and watch again after sailing for a year or so and re watch then so it will make more sense. I plan to do that with many of your vids as they're GREAT sources of info. The best!
Sorry about that. Tried to keep it relatable. Bottom line is that the sail on the boat is a wing and we need it to be shaped right if we want to sail well. And yet, catamarans are so hard on sails…you gotta watch how fast they wear.
@@TheOKellys No apology needed. More a reference to my lack of knowledge and experience. Nick gave a great explanation and I’m sure I’ll understand the video better when I’ve sailed a bit. 😉 Thanks for the reply.
Great video but I would point out that your Leopard 46, while no racer, is vastly lighter than modern ex-charter cats. The leopard 46 has a lightship displacement of 11.0t whereas a modern leopard 45 has a lightship displacement of 15.0t and a lagoon 46 is pushing 16t
@@TheOKellys Looking forward to seeing what you go for. Love the channel and especially the more technical and realistic angle you go for. (I'm an astrophysics student so I have to nerd out a little)
Huh! I've watched two of O'Kelly videos now thanks to the algorithm, and thumbnail ect. Watched them the whole way through - 2 outta 2. Your nailing it. (though I disagree with some of your sail explaination in this one) Might have to subscribe! 👍
Airfoil From Wikipedia, The lift on an airfoil is primarily the result of its angle of attack. When oriented at a suitable angle, the airfoil deflects the oncoming air (for fixed-wing aircraft, a downward force), resulting in a force on the airfoil in the direction opposite to the deflection.
The sails are your engine - completely true and if you can afford to, you should definitely invest to achieve the fastest upwind, most manageable and most comfortable sailing performance. Crazy to see so many very expensive cruising boats with sails that are such a very small proportion of the total cost of the boat. Great video (and music!), thanks 😊
@@TheOKellys I think a lot of people simply don’t realise the performance differential, especially if you have never raced. Definitely worth the extra 😊
Use to race Hobie Cats back when 300 would show up to race, starter sailing on a 230 3 mast blue water steel hull & have had a few different mono-hulls, the deep keel boats point higher, but lack the speed of a cat. So bet the lower pointing angle is made up by Cat speed at the end of the day, but it could be like the Tortoise & the hair story too.
That was very interesting. Well presented as well especially with your data comparisons. I am wondering though what a distance over ground cost comparison would be if you through motor sailing into the mix. It would seem you can get a lot of diesel for the price of a top performance sail.
Interesting question, but sailing for us is not about $/mile as I am sure there are less expensive options. For us, it is about (pardon the cliche) harnessing the wind. However, yes, someone should do a motorsailing test for sure, because many catamarans are used in just this way!
That may not be for much longer... plus there are problems coming up with bio diesel additives ...check on soap clogging of filters...water absorption and decay.
I wonder also the effect of harnessing all available surface area for Solar input and that solar power sent real time to an outboard 2Hp electric motor. Then combine the wind and sun together to "solar" sail. Surely over a six hour sunny window each day it would eventually pay for itself and speed passage.
@@6800891 When you get to a certain point with solar and e motors you reach Silent yatch levels ... they ditched a standing rig in favour of a Parra kite ...Solar and a gen-set for emergencies and sustained use of full E motor power. Though if solar makes the next possible jump and batteries get cheaper and more effective The amount of run time most cruisers will need will diminish to a few hours in a period of months. Sophisticated lady have already experimented with their ten hp electric dingy motor as an emergency back up pushing their heavy full keel monohull along and then leaving it down and using it as an E regen unit while under sail.
Thanks folks, My wife always tells me I don’t say it enough, so I’ll just say it …..”I love you guys” :) You are you are humorous. You are kind , thoughtful and rational. Any Boy Scout would be proud. What’s I find surprising is that when you enter into one of these technical/expensive/ emotional discussions I wonder if this isn’t the final product resulting from months of mental gymnastics leading up to some climactic negotiation with Megan. On top of that sometimes the soothing way you go about your presentation is more compelling than the words coming out of your mouth. Regardless, I am pleased you are enjoying the new sail and I still find the technical aspect perfectly acceptable. Perhaps I’m being a bit narrow minded, but I’m wondering why this “argument” hasn’t expanded into other rabbit holes Certainly if $18000. is an acceptable cost for a knot or two of VMG, what would be the value of slapping a couple of dagger boards on that puppy…or a bit of liposuction to lose a ton or two of displacement. No matter, its hard to put a value on fun factor… and no doubt you kids are having fun. Best to all and keep up the good work. -bill :)
William, thank you for the kind note. Really appreciate it. We put a lot of love and effort into these videos. Don't know what you mean about climactic negotiations with Megan....about buying the laminates for Either Way? Don't remember it that way. It was a tough chunk of change to part with, but we got a lot of good sailing out of that boat with the new sails. Daggerboards on this boat would be.....awesome. Really....would be an amazing addition.
Great post my friend. I appreciate your balanced review. I Always Enjoy tuning in to your latest video. And, although music is not necessary for a great video.... when you add it in.... you have Fabulous Taste 👌 👏 👍 😍 🌴⛵🌞💚💛
Thanks Gef. Really appreciate it. Put a lot of work into this one. Wanted to make sure it was useful and unbiased. Glad you liking the music, because I sure am!
An interesting note with catamarans I used to race dark class catamarans on Lake Simcoe in the late 80s Jeff and I took the Canadian championship and shattered the record I believe it was 89 but those small cats we were on it's just a trampoline with a sale but the point is small cats don't have any trouble sailing the way big cats do the bigger the catamaran is the worse it gets part of the problem comes in that when you got a cabin up that's wide enough you got a catamaran that's wide and when you have a big catamaran one wave hits one side another wave hits the other side and you end up in a situation where it's wobbling back and forth all over the place and it makes it much more uncomfortable to be on board because two holes are taking two separate ways it makes it really uncomfortable and a lot of people expect it'll be more stable while technically that's true side to side if the water conditions were dead calm but once you get into rough or Waters it's really not true anymore a small cat these problems aren't noticeable but on a large catamaran they are definitely noticeable and it makes them more uncomfortable to sleep aboard for a lot of people.
The other thing that is important is the weight of the boat. A heavier boat puts so much more strain on the sails so a big heavy cruising cat probably needs laminates even more so than a lightweight performance boat, even though that sounds counter-intuitive!!
it’s a trade off, performance sail, performance beard. it’s a chin scratcher - but seriously this is a fine piece of filmmaking. For a racer and sometime crew-mate of Dave like me, the performance envelope of your boat under sail means you can run your engines less, especially to windward. Good tools make for good work. You can shave miles off of your passage with strong COG, leaving obstructions well to leeward with confidence. Fine boat handling is a pleasure to watch from on board or from far off. Cheers.
Ha! Good ones. Chin scratcher…lol. Second contemporary of Dave I’ve chatted with this week. I’m sure sail performance means very little to a lot of heavy cat drivers, but for real sailors worried cruising cats won’t sail….man, good shape is just so important….arguably even more important with our low-aspect keels….I wanted to get into that…but the vid would have been an hour long!
@@TheOKellysYou achieve a successful balance with useful content and images. Your viewer comments attest. What fun to optimize your home afloat to sail upwind better and short-handed even! Stable boats are sticky at low speed. They make gurgley noises to remind us they like to reach in pressure. I bet you hav learned the best trim to balance lift and drag through the wind ranges. Aramid sails stretch less in a breeze, shrink less from UVs and hold their shape through the life of the sail. It is kind of like how a really good set of tires allow a fine car to perform better. Until it snows and they need to switch out to winter tires. Enjoy the positive feedback.
Wow, this was incredibly educational. We had to stop the video many times to look things up and get our bearing! Thanks for always putting out vids that help us cruisers. We had NO idea that tacking performance was a "thing". I guess we need to start tacking! HA HA. Great job...as usual!
there are slow cats, great temptation to overdo accommodation. putting a standing height cabin entirely a meter above the water is a formula for a [badly ] sailing barn.
Wow wow wow Nick, you both, what an informative video and + super montage, editing, music, details, artistic beginning, ending cool song, camera angles, descriptive arrows and words. I’m just a passionate catamaran sailor but I see way beyond your creative efforts to explain YOUR findings and YOUR passion (s) bravo bravo to the two of you, (I don’t know who comes up with ideas and who edits or who takes the time to construct the vision board but chapeau to all!) I’m happy, impressed, in awe and starstrucked as well !
Good info, thanks Nick! We've got the "cruising laminate" ordered on our boat. Didn't realize how much lighter they are than the dacron. Lighter weight = faster! :o) Nice landing by the way!
Well done by... me! As opposed to the other end of the spectrum- not so "well" done by me- Rut Roh Nick just say'n.. What is the power of any sailboat? Sails Matter. Good to great ones- you're gonna get somewhere faster more efficiently. Older crappy sails- you'll get there at some point maybe. Weight difference matters & you have lighten Clarity lately. Smooth hull, great rigging fine tuning as you go, new crispy sails you can go to windward in a Cat. Sometimes it is owner operator error that makes or breaks VMG. Performance sails matter in racing. Cruising not so much, unless you're racing another Cat up wind for that last mooring ball in the anchorage. Good to see you both enjoying the adventure. Stay well my friends.
Ha! i love it. Yeh you are right, she is a little lighter. Speed wise she was better with the new sail, but was it the weight or the sail? Thank you for the note!
Thks nick I always wondered the different types of materials I wish someone can explain all types of materials I need sails too on old to new to me sailboat C&C 30
Totally love that new sail feeling - on the tri we have replaced all the sails Main, jib, Screecher and kite. Sooo good to have great sails.
I love how you monitor the comments so quickly thanks. Feels like we are almost chatting in real time!
We try. Just getting ready to cast off so we will go quiet. But we see this as a community and a conversation for sure.
I must agree with Mr.Spock: FASCINATING!
Can you two ever do an episode I don't need to see over and over and still save it so I can look at it again later?
I love you guys! .. Much ❤ from 🇸🇪.
Wow, that's a heck of a compliment. Thank you
Good job. I like that you are comparing ground tracks and VMG. While sailing an informal drag race between a 45 foot cruising cat and a 45 foot cruising monohull in 2004 upwind I realized that VMG to windward was king. Pointing is just one variable in the mix. Pointing is less important than upwind VMG unless you are trying to sail upwind in a constricted waterway which cruisers almost never do. I often have to argue this point in discussions with other sailors who have not thought it through.
VMG is really all that matters….ever. Pointing means so so little.
Very well explained..! The heeling factor makes sense; in a monohull, as the wind speed increases, its energy is spilled as the boat heels. But with a flat-sailing catamaran, that does not happen, so the sails take the full force. So they will wear out and get baggy. Which means you're gonna go sideways a lot when the wind is coming from anywhere apart from behind you.
I wonder if a Junk (fully battened lugsail) rig has been applied to a cat. It's never going to win races but you reef easily, and less stress on a mast than all this kevlar at vast cost and rolling-furling headsails, a fucking right handful when the wind pipes up suddenly.
Thanks Nick, this was very educative! And Wow! The facts about the tacking angles really got me. Didn't expect the laminates to be sooooo much better.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge💪
AS a pilot I am surprised you have not THOURLY examines the ridiculous lack of the attention to the sorely attended 3 Catagories of Keels ,centerboards & daggerboards
I would love have a discussion on the virtues of these 3 vrs The 4th NEW catagory:
SCABBOARDS.....let me educate you ,like you educated the Sailors in this video
In the marketing world today everything has to be priced cheaper than the next guy. "You get what you paid for for" is only looked at the moment of purchase and performance over the long haul is not considered anymore. All things considered you probably are money ahead even if you paid more now with the added bonus of good performance. Thanks for sharing
Gentlemen don’t sail to weather! But seriously people believe that good sails are only for racing but there are crucial for a cruising boat. Oh, one more thing, when you raise the sail, don’t pull down, rather pull out (like drawing a bow and then down together with your wife pulling the tail then. It's way more efficient and better for your back (15 years racing, ask me how I know).
That’s Lake Norman Airpark 14-a? Very cool!
I learned more about sails and sail shape from this video than any other video I've seen. I genuinely appreciate the education.
Safe travels!
You did a great job landing that plane Nick. you did a very good job explaining how to trim your sails on a catamaran for up wind. Clarity looked like she's ready to take off beautifully done sir great job by the mate working the ropes
Hey Nick that was the best video I’ve ever seen on sail performance ever, I appreciate your awesome explanation & integrity😎😜
Wow Ricki, thank you!
My original main on my Leopard was on there when I bought the boat and I sailed with it for another 6 years before some tearing started. I did 20 000nm with mine. My new sails are now in place and I do love the huge low friction rings used on the sails. I’m sure this will be easier on the sails over time. Can’t wait to start our Atlantic crossing in a few weeks to see them in action over a long period.
You're comin over!? Alright! Might share an anchorage afterall! Have a great trip!
"Back to you Megan".
"Oh thank you Nick for that excellent story about how your sails make your boat go forward".
Thanks for a great video. Sure, sailboats are all about foils. I think the most common mistake people make with sails in replacing them is to go back and order sails from the loft the factory uses and order sails just like they had when new. In many cases what you get is a sail meant for the charter trade, presentable but not performance. Many people also shop for lowest cost sails. Both mistakes. Speaking with a sail designer and having sails made specifically for your boat and your style of sailing is money well spent, Dacron or laminate.
So very true. Great advice. We went back to Ullman, but made significant design changes.
We just upgraded to a Hydranet Triradial mainsail on our Nautitech 441 and see a real improvement upwind. Less leeway and good speed!
Funny statement - "Hey, what's the rush? It's not a race..." Until sails are spotted, going the same heading... And the race begins! Great video! Thanks!
Almost time for us to replace our sails. They certainly lose performance when they get soft. Love your videos, keep them coming!
@Echo - that would likely increase cost and weight - enough - even to reduce performance, yet maybe they last longer.
The laminates seem like a better option - so long as they stay laminated longer.
Thank you!
Hi , Nick and Megan , Thank you ,
long time for my answer , this video tells you why you will go to 100.000 Subscribers.
Educational , Happy , Uplifting , Funny , Straightforward , Loving , and easily 20 minutes ,
without blinking i look at your videos with a smile on my face .
Be Happy always , Love , See you , Enjoy 🙂😊
You are too kind Michel. Thank you. Really appreciate the kind words. Best to you as well!
@@TheOKellys
Thank you.
Very nice teacher. Agree 100% on the laminate sail performance. We kept both on out monohull sloop to use them in different settings but understand that in the Sail area that you have that isn’t an option.
Thank you for the effort you put into this video! Exceedingly helpful even though I sail a mono hull.
Great video! I had an old sail on my monohull for 3 years and did not realize it was the sail that was causing the excess heeling and slow speed. I considered myself a good sailor and good at trim but could never get any performance out of the boat. Now I know why. Thanks a million (or at least several thousand...).
Very informative and informative. This is how much time had to be spent on collecting and summarizing the information provided. Thanks for the release.
I enjoyed the tech side, retired Mechanical Engineer, glad you talked about how import sails are for cruisers, it’s their “engine”! Need to be taken care of and serviced, washed, dried regularly, in the sail bag, or folded and stored properly. If owners forked out serious funds for a main, they’d be more likely to take care of it. Fair winds⛵️😎
Your logic is spot on my Vulcan friend! Once again nothing but quality and I just love your music, your filming and your intelligent content, not to mention your new sleeping quarters. That's why I am s sub of yours!! Good luck, fair winds and I look forward to the next show.
Great video! I am eager to try out the sails on our new-to-us Knysna 440, which I am told "crab sails", and does not point into the wind whatsoever. We shall see.
Awesome vid again..it has taken me awhile to warm to you guuys...but i kept watching..and now i learn so much about sailing..and i enjoy your vids..Cheers Bazz
Thanks. You reinforced a few things to do with sails and showed me at least one thing I didn't know.
Outstanding episode O'Kelly's! Thank you for all your hard work!
Man, that was an awesome video! I'm a former Naple Sabot, Laser, Tornado, Nacra 6.0 and Nacra 5.8 as well as many other boats that I've crewed on including Defender and Courageous (12 meter Americans Cup), TeVega 165 ft. gaff rigged schooner and Taxi Dancer. I also grew up in a junior racing sailing program from 7 or 8 years of age all the way through my senior year of high school. It honestly was the best time in my life. You taught me a few things that I didn't fully understand and explained it incredibly well. Thank you! I haven't been sailing in about 15 years but the last time I went was a race in Newport Beach, CA where I entered The Flight of the Laser's and was the first one to the first mark, the second to the second mark and ended up with a 6th place finish. I was really fast up wind but chocked on the down wind because of my weight. I was a little heavy at the time. This race if you know about it has hundreds of boats on the starting line at the same time for one race. I'm planning on getting a Schionning catamaran and taking it to the tropics because I miss sailing a lot and need to get back out on the water again.
Taxi Dancer! Wow! That’s pretty cool! Have seen photos of the Flight in Newport, but never in person. Really appreciate the kudos. It’s so hard to do tech vids because you can bore people with too much and bore them with too little. Hope that one met the mark….get it…? Lol thanks for the note
Cool to see you still fly! We are in George Town with port engine problems...feeling envious of any vessel with sails at this point. That being said, I have been broken down in worse places!
Sorry to hear it! Hope you can find what you need there!
@@TheOKellys Thanks, me too. It's our first time here and we are loving it ❤
I've seen people down at the marina with sails so blown out they have sewn patches into the sails and run stringer lines to center points that tie to a free floating ring over a line. I don't know how they sail like that and honestly they probably don't and just use the motor to putt around the bay. My favorite is when people go to get on their boats after it's been sitting a long time snd they start raising the sails and rats or mice come tumbling down the sails, long streaks of rodent urine, poop and bedding material come flying out to cover the other boats.
Great job on the video Nick and Megan....so that's why you won the tacking race at Marsh, you had the secret weapon. The red track looks like my effort! lol
Lol. Valiant effort!
Yet another insightful course at O'Kelly University, weaving together concepts from many different disciplines. You could literally package all of your video explanations into a full semester worth of presentations.
That was a great video. Very educational!
Nick's Master of Science in Climatology from U. of WI shone through here with clear explanations of complex subject matter. Thanks so much. Well done.
It's actually a Masters of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences. But yeh, UW-Madison....how'd you know that?
@@TheOKellys Oh, sorry I got your masters subject matter wrong and I appreciate the correction. Answer- you told us, I don't remember if it was video or a podcast. You're the best on weather. Thanks.
Ahhh, thanks. I will always be a weathergeek
I'd think about rolling up the sail canvas when going upwind... You're the only American channel left in my Abo's. Always some interesting stuff to hear about cats.
Another great video. When I was younger I got a chance to take the north sails fast course . Your explanation of sailing techniques does you proud. Keep up the good work.
Yes.... this is the kind of video I like... real information, straight to the point no fluff.... thank you!
that was probably the most even-handed review of sails I have seen across the interweb. One point - the value proposition for sails is that "value= initial purchase price over the time the sail will retain its shape " with the critical determinant being the ability of the cloth to retain its shape. - I don't think it will be too long before you think of doing the same with your headsail.
I know. And the jib is twisting off terribly. But to really put a better jib to use, we really need to do some hardware mods to get the sheet leads further up. I’ll chat with Ullman, see what ideas they might have
Really much better the catamaran than mono hul boat. And i am dreamin to have a catamaran for sailing around the world someday. Watching from naic cavite. Philippines.
yea good point ,, my little cat the main is 15 years old and definitely blown out, i should get a new one ! luckily my mast is only 30 foot tall !
Drag on sailboats is dominated by induced drag, both of the sails and the hulls.
With daggerboards, the induced drag is very roughly equal between the two.
Without daggerboards, the induced drag of the hulls will totally dominate. Cruising cats get their bad reputations because
* many don't have daggerboards or don't drop them when they should, and
* there's so much clearance between the sails and the ocean surface that, combined with maximum AoA at the bottom of the sail, you get a huge vortex off the bottom of the sail.
The first problem is that the "span" of your hull in the water is the depth, which is tiny, maybe 80 cm. Induced drag is (lift/span)^2/dynamic pressure/e/pi. e and pi are constants, so forget about them. A daggerboard that extends just 160 cm further into the water cuts induced drag by a factor of 9. You'll do better than just sail with a smaller leeway angle... you'll sail faster too.
The second problem is why jibs and head sails do so well compared to main sails... they have less of a gap to the ocean surface, so less wind is able to slip under the bottom of the sail. Jibs will often be in actual contact with the deck several meters back from the stay. Mains have a hard boom which has to clear a roof as well as anything above it, like Clarity's raised helm roof, so lots of gap.
Hmmmm, I know a fair bit about fluid dynamics. I think you mean parasitic drag dominates.
@@TheOKellys Oh cool you're a meteorologist!
The Reynold's number for a 46 foot boat in 68 F water at 8 knots is 57 million. Momentum totally dominates viscosity, right?
Let me calculate it out for your boat. I'm going to guess 8 knots boat speed (8500 Pa dynamic pressure) in 13 knots of wind (27 Pa dynamic pressure), apparent angle 30 degrees off the bow. Hopefully that's close enough.
Your 46 Leopard has around 1000 feet^2 of sail area. It's got a fair bit of camber, I'll guess you can get a lift coefficient of 1.5 out of it. In 13 knots of wind that's 3200 N of lift. That's 1600 N of surge and 2800 N of sway just from lift. Total sway is actually 3200 N because you pick up almost 400 N from the induced drag off the sail, and there's probably a bit more off the hull that I haven't counted.
All that sway has to be reacted with the keel. Your keel is 135 cm draft (I looked it up), which is a lot more than I'd guessed, so now comes the part where I look dumb.
260 N of induced drag of the keel, 16% of thrust.
Induced drag off the sail is 745 N, 645 N of which is boat drag, 40% of thrust. I guessed 18 m span and e=0.5 because the span loading is so asymmetrical.
At 56% of thrust, induced drag is a tiny bit bigger than parasitic drag. I hadn't realized your keel was that big.
With such a large Reynold's number, I wonder where the rest of your drag is. Is it base drag off the tail? It's hard to eyeball how much area below the waterline you have exposed at the back.
ruclips.net/video/zCpVfFDYfWE/видео.html
Look at the mess coming off the bottom of the sails.
Also, I was even more wrong. That hull induced drag number should be cut in half, because there's only one vortex off the bottom and nothing at the top. So 8% of thrust. Total induced drag is 48% of thrust and it's not even the majority of drag any more. Ooops.
It will really be interesting to see how it holds up to the elements over time. UV is always a killer regardless... I like your comment on the sail and tradeoff between them. Good point, sales are really a wearing part and need to be replaced on a reoccurring plan like your engine example. So, more frequently with a sale that lasts only 1 to 2 seasons, or every 4 to 5 years with a more expensive version. (that is assuming your sale does not last longer) Also, would love to see you find another Leopard and see if they can follow you, and what issues you or they, run into. Great content! And yes, a certain sail maker should be sending you chocolate. And by chocolate I mean.....
Our previous laminate held shape for 7 seasons. This current dacron sail was good on Clarity for ....maybe 2-2.5. So....yeh, there is some math involved.
You guys are the best! always teaching me interesting details. Didn't know you're also a pilot Nick . Cool!
Nick, Thanks again for an awesome presentation. Your bang on about Sails. Money spent now on great sail will provide you with big bonuses over the lifetime of the sail.
So true! They aren’t the tires, they are the engine!
One might say, the Laminate Sail is also more environmental friendly but that's wrong. Dacron is a fibre with no glue, Laminate Sails can't be recycled as the glue can't be separated from the fibres. That's a thing also to consider.
Super video, as usual!!
All of the information regarding the choice of sail materials is very appreciated.
Thank you for the great inspiration!
Great video! The graphic overlay was so helpful on Leeway, trim & tack. Neat to see how laminate fibers are laid too. Good to see y'all 'this week'
Great one Nick!!! This would Never be better explained. Was that a Piper at the beginning? Piper Cherokee was the 1st ever plane I flew! Loved it!!!
Well thank you! That there is a Bonanza. Lovely airplane. Personal favorite Piper is the Arrow II
I've learnt far more from your channel than all the others put together. Thanks heaps
that's very kind of you to say. Glad we could provide some value
Ultimately I watch sailing videos for episodes like this. Thanks for the knowledge bomb Nick
Love the Navy 44 at 4:30. Beat Army!
Excellent video! You have exposed that only those last few degrees are really only lost to the lift from the underwater appendage, which is probably caused mostly by mindset. I find it appropriate to mention that most live aboard mono hull sailers are also taking the same penalty, but don’t seem to honestly report it. I can imagine some ( more) trash talking already. Again, well done!
Thanks For the Very informative Vlog on sails .. I really enjoyed it and am on my 2nd time watching it ..
can’t begin to tell you how much I appreciate you sharing your experience with real data for comparison .. I love getting 100% performance out of a good sail and getting a cruiser what I call ‘up on the keels’ going up wind is such a great feeling ..
I noticed you guys are from Portland Oregon, we are also from Oregon. I've been trying to find a good local boat to go out on and get some experience sailing. We want to start a ourney of our own living full time on a boat.
excellent points raised and well illustrated
Never mind the sails, the music at the end was fantastic !!!
Well thank you
This is an awesomely informative video. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks for the clear explanation
I'll be sailing in the next few years and maybe catch up with you all out there. As a pretty bright guy with zero sailing experience right now, the performance aspect was, admittedly over my head. Lol! I'm sure the current or prior sailors were able to follow along though. I'll shelve this episode and watch again after sailing for a year or so and re watch then so it will make more sense. I plan to do that with many of your vids as they're GREAT sources of info. The best!
Sorry about that. Tried to keep it relatable. Bottom line is that the sail on the boat is a wing and we need it to be shaped right if we want to sail well. And yet, catamarans are so hard on sails…you gotta watch how fast they wear.
@@TheOKellys No apology needed. More a reference to my lack of knowledge and experience. Nick gave a great explanation and I’m sure I’ll understand the video better when I’ve sailed a bit. 😉 Thanks for the reply.
Great video but I would point out that your Leopard 46, while no racer, is vastly lighter than modern ex-charter cats.
The leopard 46 has a lightship displacement of 11.0t whereas a modern leopard 45 has a lightship displacement of 15.0t and a lagoon 46 is pushing 16t
Oh we are well aware. She’s a wonderful boat. We’ve sold and are on the prowl for a faster cat.
@@TheOKellys Looking forward to seeing what you go for. Love the channel and especially the more technical and realistic angle you go for. (I'm an astrophysics student so I have to nerd out a little)
Huh! I've watched two of O'Kelly videos now thanks to the algorithm, and thumbnail ect. Watched them the whole way through - 2 outta 2. Your nailing it. (though I disagree with some of your sail explaination in this one)
Might have to subscribe! 👍
Airfoil
From Wikipedia,
The lift on an airfoil is primarily the result of its angle of attack. When oriented at a suitable angle, the airfoil deflects the oncoming air (for fixed-wing aircraft, a downward force), resulting in a force on the airfoil in the direction opposite to the deflection.
The sails are your engine - completely true and if you can afford to, you should definitely invest to achieve the fastest upwind, most manageable and most comfortable sailing performance. Crazy to see so many very expensive cruising boats with sails that are such a very small proportion of the total cost of the boat. Great video (and music!), thanks 😊
Exactly. I was going to say that in the vid, but I don’t want to go around shaming people. Nice stuff is expensive!
@@TheOKellys I think a lot of people simply don’t realise the performance differential, especially if you have never raced. Definitely worth the extra 😊
Nick. Just a fabulous short webinar on sails. 👍👏🏻
So, one gets what one pays for. Oh, and I love the general aviation comparison. It was very well presented. Go well.
Use to race Hobie Cats back when 300 would show up to race, starter sailing on a 230 3 mast blue water steel hull & have had a few different mono-hulls, the deep keel boats point higher, but lack the speed of a cat. So bet the lower pointing angle is made up by Cat speed at the end of the day, but it could be like the Tortoise & the hair story too.
That was very interesting. Well presented as well especially with your data comparisons. I am wondering though what a distance over ground cost comparison would be if you through motor sailing into the mix. It would seem you can get a lot of diesel for the price of a top performance sail.
Interesting question, but sailing for us is not about $/mile as I am sure there are less expensive options. For us, it is about (pardon the cliche) harnessing the wind. However, yes, someone should do a motorsailing test for sure, because many catamarans are used in just this way!
@@TheOKellys Threw not through. I can spell.. Onist 😆.
That may not be for much longer... plus there are problems coming up with bio diesel additives ...check on soap clogging of filters...water absorption and decay.
I wonder also the effect of harnessing all available surface area for Solar input and that solar power sent real time to an outboard 2Hp electric motor. Then combine the wind and sun together to "solar" sail. Surely over a six hour sunny window each day it would eventually pay for itself and speed passage.
@@6800891
When you get to a certain point with solar and e motors you reach Silent yatch levels ... they ditched a standing rig in favour of a Parra kite ...Solar and a gen-set for emergencies and sustained use of full E motor power.
Though if solar makes the next possible jump and batteries get cheaper and more effective The amount of run time most cruisers will need will diminish to a few hours in a period of months.
Sophisticated lady have already experimented with their ten hp electric dingy motor as an emergency back up pushing their heavy full keel monohull along and then leaving it down and using it as an E regen unit while under sail.
Thanks folks,
My wife always tells me I don’t say it enough, so I’ll just say it …..”I love you guys” :)
You are you are humorous. You are kind , thoughtful and rational. Any Boy Scout would be proud.
What’s I find surprising is that when you enter into one of these technical/expensive/ emotional discussions I wonder if this isn’t the final product resulting from months of mental gymnastics leading up to some climactic negotiation with Megan.
On top of that sometimes the soothing way you go about your presentation is more compelling than the words coming out of your mouth.
Regardless, I am pleased you are enjoying the new sail and I still find the technical aspect perfectly acceptable.
Perhaps I’m being a bit narrow minded, but I’m wondering why this “argument” hasn’t expanded into other rabbit holes
Certainly if $18000. is an acceptable cost for a knot or two of VMG, what would be the value of slapping a couple of dagger boards on that puppy…or a bit of liposuction to lose a ton or two of displacement.
No matter, its hard to put a value on fun factor… and no doubt you kids are having fun.
Best to all and keep up the good work.
-bill
:)
William, thank you for the kind note. Really appreciate it. We put a lot of love and effort into these videos. Don't know what you mean about climactic negotiations with Megan....about buying the laminates for Either Way? Don't remember it that way. It was a tough chunk of change to part with, but we got a lot of good sailing out of that boat with the new sails. Daggerboards on this boat would be.....awesome. Really....would be an amazing addition.
Great post my friend. I appreciate your balanced review. I Always Enjoy tuning in to your latest video. And, although music is not necessary for a great video.... when you add it in.... you have Fabulous Taste 👌 👏 👍 😍 🌴⛵🌞💚💛
Thanks Gef. Really appreciate it. Put a lot of work into this one. Wanted to make sure it was useful and unbiased. Glad you liking the music, because I sure am!
Great video! And 👍👍 for the outro soundtrack
An interesting note with catamarans I used to race dark class catamarans on Lake Simcoe in the late 80s Jeff and I took the Canadian championship and shattered the record I believe it was 89 but those small cats we were on it's just a trampoline with a sale but the point is small cats don't have any trouble sailing the way big cats do the bigger the catamaran is the worse it gets part of the problem comes in that when you got a cabin up that's wide enough you got a catamaran that's wide and when you have a big catamaran one wave hits one side another wave hits the other side and you end up in a situation where it's wobbling back and forth all over the place and it makes it much more uncomfortable to be on board because two holes are taking two separate ways it makes it really uncomfortable and a lot of people expect it'll be more stable while technically that's true side to side if the water conditions were dead calm but once you get into rough or Waters it's really not true anymore a small cat these problems aren't noticeable but on a large catamaran they are definitely noticeable and it makes them more uncomfortable to sleep aboard for a lot of people.
Took the helm on a friends FP cat and it would not go up wind at all
The other thing that is important is the weight of the boat. A heavier boat puts so much more strain on the sails so a big heavy cruising cat probably needs laminates even more so than a lightweight performance boat, even though that sounds counter-intuitive!!
Nope that makes sense. Good point
it’s a trade off, performance sail, performance beard. it’s a chin scratcher - but seriously this is a fine piece of filmmaking.
For a racer and sometime crew-mate of Dave like me, the performance envelope of your boat under sail means you can run your engines less, especially to windward. Good tools make for good work. You can shave miles off of your passage with strong COG, leaving obstructions well to leeward with confidence. Fine boat handling is a pleasure to watch from on board or from far off. Cheers.
Ha! Good ones. Chin scratcher…lol. Second contemporary of Dave I’ve chatted with this week. I’m sure sail performance means very little to a lot of heavy cat drivers, but for real sailors worried cruising cats won’t sail….man, good shape is just so important….arguably even more important with our low-aspect keels….I wanted to get into that…but the vid would have been an hour long!
@@TheOKellysYou achieve a successful balance with useful content and images. Your viewer comments attest. What fun to optimize your home afloat to sail upwind better and short-handed even! Stable boats are sticky at low speed. They make gurgley noises to remind us they like to reach in pressure. I bet you hav learned the best trim to balance lift and drag through the wind ranges. Aramid sails stretch less in a breeze, shrink less from UVs and hold their shape through the life of the sail. It is kind of like how a really good set of tires allow a fine car to perform better. Until it snows and they need to switch out to winter tires. Enjoy the positive feedback.
Wow, this was incredibly educational. We had to stop the video many times to look things up and get our bearing! Thanks for always putting out vids that help us cruisers. We had NO idea that tacking performance was a "thing". I guess we need to start tacking! HA HA. Great job...as usual!
Great video. Can I ask how much you have had paid for that mainsail if Ullman had not provided it for free?
Thanks
I think so. Not sure when
Very well done video. What a beautiful sail! I subbed!
Always something to learn to make better decisions for your own personal goals!
Amazing video, learnt alot today... Keep doing what you guys are doing, making a soldier really happy...
.
Great video. Very interesting. Thanks 👍👍👍❤️
there are slow cats, great temptation to overdo accommodation. putting a standing height cabin entirely a meter above the water is a formula for a [badly ] sailing barn.
Wow wow wow Nick, you both, what an informative video and + super montage, editing, music, details, artistic beginning, ending cool song, camera angles, descriptive arrows and words. I’m just a passionate catamaran sailor but I see way beyond your creative efforts to explain YOUR findings and YOUR passion (s) bravo bravo to the two of you, (I don’t know who comes up with ideas and who edits or who takes the time to construct the vision board but chapeau to all!) I’m happy, impressed, in awe and starstrucked as well !
Well thank you very much. We are enjoying the process and learning all the time!
Good info, thanks Nick! We've got the "cruising laminate" ordered on our boat. Didn't realize how much lighter they are than the dacron. Lighter weight = faster! :o) Nice landing by the way!
Really enjoy your balanced viewpoints. Learned a lot. Thanks.
Good discussion Nick & nice landing for a PPL lol 😂
AQUANET SAILS (lasts 30 years)! Check out the specs, 30 years. The Sail Loft , Michelle Stevens, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Well done by... me! As opposed to the other end of the spectrum- not so "well" done by me- Rut Roh Nick just say'n..
What is the power of any sailboat? Sails Matter. Good to great ones- you're gonna get somewhere faster more efficiently.
Older crappy sails- you'll get there at some point maybe. Weight difference matters & you have lighten Clarity lately.
Smooth hull, great rigging fine tuning as you go, new crispy sails you can go to windward in a Cat.
Sometimes it is owner operator error that makes or breaks VMG. Performance sails matter in racing.
Cruising not so much, unless you're racing another Cat up wind for that last mooring ball in the anchorage.
Good to see you both enjoying the adventure. Stay well my friends.
Ha! i love it. Yeh you are right, she is a little lighter. Speed wise she was better with the new sail, but was it the weight or the sail? Thank you for the note!
Very good documentary about aerodynamics and sails. Kudos.
Thanks for showing your info and the making of the sails. High tech and interesting.
A friend of a friend with a Leopard 51PC has never blown out a sail, plus it heads up wind without any issues. Go figure. 😀
As usual time well spent listening to your educational videos. Thank you
Amazing video. Thanks Guys. So informative, so balanced and great for the industry.
Thks nick
I always wondered the different types of materials
I wish someone can explain all types of materials
I need sails too on old to new to me sailboat C&C 30
Wow great info on this video keep them coming !
Nice flying!! 👍👍👊👊🛩🛩
Love the technical video!
really informative... learn something every video
Very informative video guys, nice work.
Merci!
You are a scientist, tons of info here to provide some "Clarity"