Unfortunately I did the ole mention it then forget. I think a lower back extension machine is the best you can probably do, provided it gets you a good stretch.
@@andresroman9544beat me by a minute lol. Also I was just thinking that you can do a Jefferson curl good morning style. I think the weight on the shoulders would stretch/target the upper erector spinae more. But I’m making this up off the top of my head so idk potential risks associated with it.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite fitness youtubers (and for the record, I really like Mike Israetel and Jeff Nippard). Informative, concise, and practical. I like your approach to these series. I also like how you touch on some nuances in scientific research. For example, few people talk about the percentage increase of going for higher volume, usually they just say that it's better and nothing more. Keep it up, my man!
Check out Eric Bugenhagen's critique of Nippard and Dr. mike.. hilarious...now there's a guy that knows how to get big and strong. And, entertaining af
I mostly agree but I think its gonna be hard to grow lats with pullover being main exercise. Its much easier to exert effort doing bench press then crossovers, just as doing weighted pull ups and lat pull downs are easier to get proper stimulus compared to pullovers. I get it, I dont love flat footed barbell squats for quad growth and dont grow legs with them and get tired instead but just experimentally, pullovers arent the meat or potatoes.
I agree with your sentiment. Overall I'd keep pull-ups/downs slightly ahead of a pull-over in my weekly volume totals. Maybe the best way to practically apply these arguments about the pull-over (which remind me also of Mike Israetel's & Menno Henselmans's deep faith in the cable lat prayer) is to give the movement more or equal consideration as pull-ups/pull-downs in one's weekly programming for lat growth. For example, my partner and I just finished a multi-phase lat specialization program in which we utilized way more lat prayers* than we ever did previously. In one session we used lat prayers as a finisher movement after a significant number of weighted and bodyweight pull-ups. In another session we did only lat prayers (with Myo reps). In the first case, we found that the prayers let us continue hammering the lats after our arm flexors, grip, and stabilizers tired from pull-ups. And in the other case, the prayers-only session gave us a surprisingly satisfying stimulus (pump , disruption, all that good stuff), but with way less fatigue than is incurred by heavy pull-ups... and that's pretty valuable when you're progressing volumes, frequency, and proximity to failure over time! Now that the program is over we continue to program lat prayers and pull-ups at a 40/60 or even 50/50 ratio for weekly volumes. (That's just for lats, btw. There are still other rowing movements programmed for different areas of the back.) This change and its benefits have been similar to how we now balance squatting (barbell and feet-forward-Smith versions) with leg extensions (machine and reverse Nordics). *For the sake of my point I treated lat prayers and pullovers interchangeably even though Milo argues that pullovers are somewhat superior. But I perform my prayers with a crazy-deep stretch (Renaissance Periodization style), with forearms perpendicular to the cable at the bottom and perceive these to be equivalently challenging at the lengthened position.
Kassem Hanson has done a deep dive to show that the dumbbell pullover is not one of the best exercises for lat growth as the teres does most of the work.
@@AllanStephens-uu9wn Since I made my own reply above I had also been experimenting with pullovers as a variation on the cable "lat prayer" movement I mentioned----it completely sucked for me. No lat pumps at all, regardless of weight/rep ranges. Went back to cable lat prayers: Massive lat pumps. At the very least, I'll not be treating the two as interchangeable going forward (and not bothering with pullovers unless, perhaps, I need some teres work?).
best lat growth i ever had was with pullovers, i swapped to pull downs cus i could drop set more easily and save time. but def worth experimenting with it to see how u respond
I would love to see a video about your take on all the different variations of the pull over (across the bench vs. on the bench, dumbbell vs ez bar, machine, etc.) and also also about the best technique to make the exercise lat biased. There are not many videos about pull over on the internet, and all of them contradict each other to an extent. I think the fitness community needs more knowledge about this incredible exercise
Coming from the thumbnail I didn't expect the DB pullover to be the weapon of choice here. I've watched a couple of videos with the same results you experienced, and I've experimented a lot, but for the life of me I can't get the exercise to hit my lats, but the triceps gets blasted ...
Across the bench is super uncomfy and i cant focus on the movement properly, so i lay on it normally, it hits the lats and triceps solidly, im too chicken to go heavy so work in the 12-15 rep range.
Solid video. I really like the lengthened partial examples for everything, so I can just tell guys at the gym to go to this channel and watch the videos if they are still confused. I really like the db pullover even if it is just for a light stretch/rom practice to warm up and, then move over to the cables to get it in.
Loving the series. I was wondering with all the evidence on stretch-mediated hypertrophy, what the best exercise for the brachioradialis in the forearm would be. Would it be some sort of reverse bayesian curl like movement? Looking forward to more videos of yours!
Wouldn't it be a good idea to not perform lengthened partials on exercises like the dumbbell pullover, since the top portion is not so fatiguing and might even lead to slight recovery in-between reps? I could imagine getting in more reps in the lengthened position not skipping the top portion. I've noticed this in bench press for myself. Doing pullups, I get in more work in the lengthened position, skipping the top part of the movement. With exercises that get easier in the contraction, this might not be the case. Stretch friendly might not equal lengthened partial friendly. What are your thoughts on this?
Dr. Wolf mentions changing up grips between sessions on pullup and row movements, but I'm curious if there are arguments in favor of two other approaches which tend in opposite extremes: 1) changing grips between SETS in the same session (e.g., 2 sets pronated, 2 neutral, 2 underhanded), or 2) changing grips only between program mesocycles (e.g., all sets pronated in phase one, neutral in phase two, etc.) I'm wondering if he or anyone else knows of any research or science-based speculation as to which sort of grip-change-plan may yield the best results. Otherwise, I can imagine the competing arguments to be something like (1) gets you the most even development while (2) helps you "groove into" each grip for better focus. But I cant imagine which of these predicts the most optimal (fastest? fullest? balanced?) back growth results.
I'm a big fan of pullups and dumbbell pullovers. I usually keep pullups in the 6-10 rep range and have progressed to weighted. The stretch and lat stimulus is just so much better than what I can accomplish on a lat pull. I would put a plate loaded pulldown ahead of a lat pull, I think it feels much more similar to a pullup and allows you to milk the stretch. The plate loaded ones can also be performed unilaterally or isolaterally to address any imbalances, whereas doing a dual cable lat pull feels like hot garbage due to instability, and not many can do one arm pullups.
Great video! Thanks for the content. I have tried DB pullovers on multiple occasions but I end up feeling a huge burn in my triceps by the end of the set. Any suggestions to keep it more lat focused? I assume I'm doing something wrong with my technique. Thanks!
Just LOVE this series of videos. Would like to have the best glute-focused exercises. There are many debates on those ones. It will be very interesting to hear your opinion 🙏
Finally! Thank you. This series is fantastic, please do continue until you reach useless (for looking huge and shredded) muscles, like the corrugator eyebrow muscles or something.
See I like changing my grip. But I’ve found wider grips on pull-ups allow me q better stretch at the bottom due to my anatomy and have helped more with lat width. I also do pullover with a cable but seated facing away from the stack and allows me to get a good stretch at the lengthened position
If you’re in a cutting phase and in a calorie deficit, how much do you think the stretch matters given that you’re not likely to be gaining much, if any, muscle anyways? Or should you hold off on your best exercises until you do a massing phase? Even if it’s just to make recovery easier
I've been doing a lot of LP and recommended exercises from your videos, as I implement the latest science. Very pleased with your content and effort Milo, thank you!
Rate this selection of full body coverage exercises from F to A grade please Dr. Milo: Incline bench dumbell press Incline bench dumbell row Pull-downs Dips Romanian deadlifts Bulgarian split squats Behind the back bicep curls Overhead tricep extension Leaning lateral raise Leg raises Leg extensions (leaning back extended hips) Leg curls (leaning forward bent hips) Calfs, traps, and forearms genetically blessed. No need to train.
As a calisthenics focused trainee I focus on pull-ups, chin-ups, neutral grip pull-ups (and varying grip widths too) with full ROM, tempo and overall excellent technique which took years of practice. My back is definitely my strong point despite rowing only on occasion. I'm starting to believe that almost any pulling movement, if done with great technique, close to failure and with maximum ROM, will guarantee comprehensive back growth regardless of being horizontal or vertical. Do you reckon there's any truth in this?
I was always envious to people that have angles to utilize pullovers for a lat hypertrophy. Not my case, the only mucles that is growing are triceps (in my case). If anything, during those pullovers, what is working is the most upper part of the lats (tiny part) and muscles around the scapula + already mentioned triceps.
Same! The only pullover I had good lat engagement with was a Dorian-style Nautilus machine way back when. None of the gyms I've been to since have had one 😔
Why does the resistance curve get harder in the shortened position on a lat pulldown? Most lat pulldowns are pulleys and therefore the force should be consistent right?
Hi Milo, how would the angle of the bench affect the pullover (incline pullover vs flat pullover)? I‘m trying to figure this out but can‘t find an answer. Thanks for video! Please more of the series!
A pull up (classic grip or neutral grip) and maybe two rows (flared and tucked elbows) are all you need. For example a pullup, bent over row (works lower back also) and seated row with elbows tucked.
Honorable mention:L-sit pull-ups. They do require additional stabilization muscles like the abs and hip flexors but there is a crazy stretch on the lower lats and they are hardest in the bottom position.
Thoughts on this?(when training back twice per week): Training A: Overhand grip pulldowns, Incline dumbell rows,pull overs, Training B: Seal rows, Underhand grip pulldowns, shrugs
I may be wrong but i think the lats as opposed to the long head of the triceps and front delts, do contribute more when you bend the elbow during a shoulder extension. Basically like a suppinated grip pullup (ideally with rings so you can go neutral grip in the stretched position).
Do you think kelso shrugs and shoulder depression isolation are maybe better for rhomboids mid and lower traps because you can use more weight=more weighted stretch with the same starting position then a row and a pulldown. When i finish my midback row and go to failure i got 5 reps without any rest i can hit 9 to 11 kelso shrugs after this set. Does this mean i should do them and my midback is maybe undertrained from rows ?
I’m disabled and have problems with balance and so I’ve found using a seated cable row machine, if I use a straight bar, load the weight up, I can lean right back so my back is supported and I do my shrugs that way. Would you consider this approach? I’ve been getting good results from this method.
Hey doc, considering buying Versa Gripps as I want to target my back in the next meso and I think I start to feel early signs of tendinitis when pulling up. What are your thoughts on versas or similar?
My favorite is some kind of pull up for vertical pulling (assisted, bodyweight, weighted depending on how strong you are...). I find that with pull downs I tend to lean back too much and/or my hamstrings/calves start to cramp from flexing them to maintain stability. For rowing a strict deficit pendlay row (except I touch a bit lower than what would be considered a pendlay row by some), really lights up my entire back. I also like the hammer strength plate loaded chest supported row machine. Dumbbell rows would be ok, but our gym doesn't have heavy enough dbs. Tbar rows never felt right to me and my back was never the limiting factor for them (I've never tried the chest supported version tho). Not really a fan of cable rows either. And finally the conventional deadlift which isn't strictly speaking just a back lift but definitely works the back too.
For those who want to keep it simple and effective. Ronnie Coleman’s back training exercises between which he roamed: Barbell row Single Dumbbell row Narrow T bar row Latpulldown overhand grip Deadlifts That’s it. Simplicity. His focus were 75-80% rows.
Awesome video Wolf. I have hard time getting my lower lats to grow, what do you recommend for that ? Currently, I am doing lat pull downs, DLs, 1 arm rows, and machine rows for my back.
We see you doing lengthened partials on the DB Chest Supported Row but: do you think it might be beneficial to flex the upper back part of the spine (while keeping the chest in contact with the bench) with the umpf of the concentric phase when doing full ROM or should one only move the shoulders+scapula? I would like to target as much upper back muscles as possible
Great video, just saw a similar video today from a biomechanics expert called Jordan Caporaletti who stated that the dumbbell pullover was the worst back exercise (specifically for lats) because the pectoral muscles got involved too much in this exercise. What are your thoughts about that?
When getting the muscle into a stretched position, does it matter if it happens when the muscle is active or passively stretched? EMG studies have shown that the Lats oly have about 8% activity during dumbeel pullover, meaning the triceps and pec major is the prime movers.
Hey Milo! Do you have any advice on my PULL day? I normally do PPLPPLR. An average session for me looks something like: 3 sets of pull-ups/pulldowns 2 sets of a dumbell row/chest supported machine row 2 sets of a different machine row 2 sets of dumbell shrugs 2 sets of behind the back cable curl 2 sets of machine preacher curl
A little off topic but I had a really interesting idea. Are there any studies comparing how much strength you lose when doing an exercise standing instead of sitting? We know that very unstable exercises aren’t great for hypertrophy, but what about when it’s only a small bit of instability, like a standing bs seated shoulder press?IF there was a study that showed standing up only decreases strength by 1-2 reps(ie standing RIR 1= seated RIR 3, then maybe it’d be worth it to train closer to failure in slightly unstable positions, and gain some more core stability as well. Maybe a study comparing strength loss from slight instability, and then a follow up comparing training closer to failure with unstable exercises to further from failure with very stable exercises? Or perhaps we can just estimate that it’s 1-2 reps and go straight to doing the second study? I’d love to hear your thoughts Dr Milo!
I wanna add addition to erectors training. We always told that we need always keep our lower back tight and dont flex it, but moving your back it's exactly what you need to train those musles. So what you can do is for example: 1. Hyperextension on that 45 degree machine. But done with back extension on the top and beck curl on bottom, such as your activelly using your back muslce. For me personally it number 1, my lower back super sore after set to the failure and sometimes I have hard times stand and sit after working set. 2. Barbell/cable/dumbell flexion row. The same as you do regular unsupported row, but also move your lower back in opposite to made it stiff and stable. Effectifelly training it in the same time as you train. BTW, it's that kind of exercise which can train all of your back, so if you want only one - choose that one.
I’d argue against the dumbbell pullover as it is limiting for progressive overload because after a while a persons grip &/or comfortability once they get to a larger dumbbell will be the limiting factor & not the lats itself.
Have you tried cable pull-over lying on a bench? And for traps i really like smith machine shrugs, holding the bar behind, any thoughts on those? Thank you for this video.
Assuming that the floor does not compromise the lengthened position (ROM) of the dumbbell pullover - would a decline bench give a better or worse stimulus than a flat bench?
Any tips for making commercial gym equipment (mostly thinking of machine rows and pulldown machines) more stretch friendly? Would you recommend adding weight and just aiming for the lengthened part, or use full ROM at first and then switch to lengthened as a intensifier?
I've heard that vertical shrugs aren't good for upper traps because the upper trap fibers run horizontally and not vertically. What's your opinion on that take?
What are your recommendations for the Erector Spinae? Is this going to be covered in another video?
Unfortunately I did the ole mention it then forget.
I think a lower back extension machine is the best you can probably do, provided it gets you a good stretch.
Jefferson curls
@@DrMiloWolfI like Jefferson curls for this too
@@DrMiloWolfHow about Good Mornings, RDL`s or Hyperextensions
@@andresroman9544beat me by a minute lol. Also I was just thinking that you can do a Jefferson curl good morning style. I think the weight on the shoulders would stretch/target the upper erector spinae more. But I’m making this up off the top of my head so idk potential risks associated with it.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite fitness youtubers (and for the record, I really like Mike Israetel and Jeff Nippard). Informative, concise, and practical. I like your approach to these series. I also like how you touch on some nuances in scientific research. For example, few people talk about the percentage increase of going for higher volume, usually they just say that it's better and nothing more. Keep it up, my man!
Check out Eric Bugenhagen's critique of Nippard and Dr. mike.. hilarious...now there's a guy that knows how to get big and strong. And, entertaining af
The pne in this comment section is real@@Bloozguy
Don't listen smh agenda
I mostly agree but I think its gonna be hard to grow lats with pullover being main exercise. Its much easier to exert effort doing bench press then crossovers, just as doing weighted pull ups and lat pull downs are easier to get proper stimulus compared to pullovers. I get it, I dont love flat footed barbell squats for quad growth and dont grow legs with them and get tired instead but just experimentally, pullovers arent the meat or potatoes.
I agree with your sentiment. Overall I'd keep pull-ups/downs slightly ahead of a pull-over in my weekly volume totals.
Maybe the best way to practically apply these arguments about the pull-over (which remind me also of Mike Israetel's & Menno Henselmans's deep faith in the cable lat prayer) is to give the movement more or equal consideration as pull-ups/pull-downs in one's weekly programming for lat growth.
For example, my partner and I just finished a multi-phase lat specialization program in which we utilized way more lat prayers* than we ever did previously. In one session we used lat prayers as a finisher movement after a significant number of weighted and bodyweight pull-ups. In another session we did only lat prayers (with Myo reps). In the first case, we found that the prayers let us continue hammering the lats after our arm flexors, grip, and stabilizers tired from pull-ups. And in the other case, the prayers-only session gave us a surprisingly satisfying stimulus (pump , disruption, all that good stuff), but with way less fatigue than is incurred by heavy pull-ups... and that's pretty valuable when you're progressing volumes, frequency, and proximity to failure over time!
Now that the program is over we continue to program lat prayers and pull-ups at a 40/60 or even 50/50 ratio for weekly volumes. (That's just for lats, btw. There are still other rowing movements programmed for different areas of the back.) This change and its benefits have been similar to how we now balance squatting (barbell and feet-forward-Smith versions) with leg extensions (machine and reverse Nordics).
*For the sake of my point I treated lat prayers and pullovers interchangeably even though Milo argues that pullovers are somewhat superior. But I perform my prayers with a crazy-deep stretch (Renaissance Periodization style), with forearms perpendicular to the cable at the bottom and perceive these to be equivalently challenging at the lengthened position.
Kassem Hanson has done a deep dive to show that the dumbbell pullover is not one of the best exercises for lat growth as the teres does most of the work.
@@AllanStephens-uu9wn Yea I dont really feel them in the lats so thanks for the info.
@@AllanStephens-uu9wn Since I made my own reply above I had also been experimenting with pullovers as a variation on the cable "lat prayer" movement I mentioned----it completely sucked for me. No lat pumps at all, regardless of weight/rep ranges. Went back to cable lat prayers: Massive lat pumps.
At the very least, I'll not be treating the two as interchangeable going forward (and not bothering with pullovers unless, perhaps, I need some teres work?).
best lat growth i ever had was with pullovers, i swapped to pull downs cus i could drop set more easily and save time. but def worth experimenting with it to see how u respond
This is one of the best series of exercise videos I have ever seen. Thank you. Looking forward to more.
I would love to see a video about your take on all the different variations of the pull over (across the bench vs. on the bench, dumbbell vs ez bar, machine, etc.) and also also about the best technique to make the exercise lat biased.
There are not many videos about pull over on the internet, and all of them contradict each other to an extent. I think the fitness community needs more knowledge about this incredible exercise
Coming from the thumbnail I didn't expect the DB pullover to be the weapon of choice here. I've watched a couple of videos with the same results you experienced, and I've experimented a lot, but for the life of me I can't get the exercise to hit my lats, but the triceps gets blasted ...
Across the bench is super uncomfy and i cant focus on the movement properly, so i lay on it normally, it hits the lats and triceps solidly, im too chicken to go heavy so work in the 12-15 rep range.
Been waiting for this one, love your videos keep them coming!
More to come!! Appreciate the support
Thank you for the effort and research.
I love these. It’s always fun to see what one of my favorite dudes online thinks about this topic
Thanks man! Glad you find these helpful
0:00 bro is the only influencer to actually show a legitamate glute spread, even with glute bounce...now thats peak performance
holy moly
Another great video Milo. Superb information. I would love to see a video like this for calves.
Solid video. I really like the lengthened partial examples for everything, so I can just tell guys at the gym to go to this channel and watch the videos if they are still confused. I really like the db pullover even if it is just for a light stretch/rom practice to warm up and, then move over to the cables to get it in.
This series is lit
Thanks man!
Loving the series. I was wondering with all the evidence on stretch-mediated hypertrophy, what the best exercise for the brachioradialis in the forearm would be. Would it be some sort of reverse bayesian curl like movement? Looking forward to more videos of yours!
Wouldn't it be a good idea to not perform lengthened partials on exercises like the dumbbell pullover, since the top portion is not so fatiguing and might even lead to slight recovery in-between reps? I could imagine getting in more reps in the lengthened position not skipping the top portion. I've noticed this in bench press for myself. Doing pullups, I get in more work in the lengthened position, skipping the top part of the movement. With exercises that get easier in the contraction, this might not be the case. Stretch friendly might not equal lengthened partial friendly. What are your thoughts on this?
Best exercise science channel on RUclips
Dr. Wolf mentions changing up grips between sessions on pullup and row movements, but I'm curious if there are arguments in favor of two other approaches which tend in opposite extremes:
1) changing grips between SETS in the same session (e.g., 2 sets pronated, 2 neutral, 2 underhanded), or
2) changing grips only between program mesocycles (e.g., all sets pronated in phase one, neutral in phase two, etc.)
I'm wondering if he or anyone else knows of any research or science-based speculation as to which sort of grip-change-plan may yield the best results. Otherwise, I can imagine the competing arguments to be something like (1) gets you the most even development while (2) helps you "groove into" each grip for better focus. But I cant imagine which of these predicts the most optimal (fastest? fullest? balanced?) back growth results.
Thanks for your expertise on these Best of videos. They are very helpful!
I'm a big fan of pullups and dumbbell pullovers. I usually keep pullups in the 6-10 rep range and have progressed to weighted. The stretch and lat stimulus is just so much better than what I can accomplish on a lat pull.
I would put a plate loaded pulldown ahead of a lat pull, I think it feels much more similar to a pullup and allows you to milk the stretch. The plate loaded ones can also be performed unilaterally or isolaterally to address any imbalances, whereas doing a dual cable lat pull feels like hot garbage due to instability, and not many can do one arm pullups.
Thanks for breaking the science down to plebs like us Milo.
What part of your torso do you put the top of bench for incline rows?
Hey Milo, your video have been improving very quickly in a short time.
I would like to ask, what's your opinions on Bulgarian split squats?
Perfect timing 👍🏾
Great video! Thanks for the content. I have tried DB pullovers on multiple occasions but I end up feeling a huge burn in my triceps by the end of the set. Any suggestions to keep it more lat focused? I assume I'm doing something wrong with my technique. Thanks!
Just LOVE this series of videos.
Would like to have the best glute-focused exercises.
There are many debates on those ones.
It will be very interesting to hear your opinion 🙏
Just in time. I was searching your channel for this exact video a few days ago. Very informational.
Finally! Thank you. This series is fantastic, please do continue until you reach useless (for looking huge and shredded) muscles, like the corrugator eyebrow muscles or something.
My favorite fitness channel. We need another one for the forearms and calves 🎉🎉🎉
See I like changing my grip. But I’ve found wider grips on pull-ups allow me q better stretch at the bottom due to my anatomy and have helped more with lat width. I also do pullover with a cable but seated facing away from the stack and allows me to get a good stretch at the lengthened position
thank you for your insights ! As usual they are unique and great
So much info and efforts has been put in this video, thanks DR
Yesterday, I was looking for your recommendations for back exercises. Today, you uploaded it
If you’re in a cutting phase and in a calorie deficit, how much do you think the stretch matters given that you’re not likely to be gaining much, if any, muscle anyways? Or should you hold off on your best exercises until you do a massing phase? Even if it’s just to make recovery easier
I've been doing a lot of LP and recommended exercises from your videos, as I implement the latest science.
Very pleased with your content and effort Milo, thank you!
Great vid as always, definitely waiting to see more
Been waiting for this one!
I would suggest more detailed videos on the technique of performing the different exercises. Thank you Milo =))
Great info as usual. Thank you kindly, good sir👍🏼
Great video, thanks
Always informative.
Again, thanks for the content you provide!
So good!! Thank you so much
Love this keep it up
Rate this selection of full body coverage exercises from F to A grade please Dr. Milo:
Incline bench dumbell press
Incline bench dumbell row
Pull-downs
Dips
Romanian deadlifts
Bulgarian split squats
Behind the back bicep curls
Overhead tricep extension
Leaning lateral raise
Leg raises
Leg extensions (leaning back extended hips)
Leg curls (leaning forward bent hips)
Calfs, traps, and forearms genetically blessed. No need to train.
Please keep doing this series! Do calves, neck, forearms, and abs too. Thank you so much!
Neck bro cmon who tf trains neck that would get 10 views
As a calisthenics focused trainee I focus on pull-ups, chin-ups, neutral grip pull-ups (and varying grip widths too) with full ROM, tempo and overall excellent technique which took years of practice. My back is definitely my strong point despite rowing only on occasion.
I'm starting to believe that almost any pulling movement, if done with great technique, close to failure and with maximum ROM, will guarantee comprehensive back growth regardless of being horizontal or vertical. Do you reckon there's any truth in this?
Been meaning to add pullovers in, perfect timing!
I was always envious to people that have angles to utilize pullovers for a lat hypertrophy. Not my case, the only mucles that is growing are triceps (in my case). If anything, during those pullovers, what is working is the most upper part of the lats (tiny part) and muscles around the scapula + already mentioned triceps.
Same! The only pullover I had good lat engagement with was a Dorian-style Nautilus machine way back when. None of the gyms I've been to since have had one 😔
@@moses9647 yeah they are rare these days. Although I am from Slovakia so I can only dream about those machines 😁
Why does the resistance curve get harder in the shortened position on a lat pulldown? Most lat pulldowns are pulleys and therefore the force should be consistent right?
Hi Milo,
how would the angle of the bench affect the pullover (incline pullover vs flat pullover)? I‘m trying to figure this out but can‘t find an answer.
Thanks for video! Please more of the series!
Thanks for the video.
Partial reps leigthened in pull up and lat machine worked only biceps,brachialis and brachioradiales no lats
A pull up (classic grip or neutral grip) and maybe two rows (flared and tucked elbows) are all you need. For example a pullup, bent over row (works lower back also) and seated row with elbows tucked.
Your friend Dr Mike has something called a flexion row - good shit man.
What is your opinion on pullover machines compared to the dumbell version?
What about rotator cuff training? Will there be a video on teres minor, infraspinatus, superspinatus and the other I forget its name.
Honorable mention:L-sit pull-ups. They do require additional stabilization muscles like the abs and hip flexors but there is a crazy stretch on the lower lats and they are hardest in the bottom position.
There is another one you could do : Hollow body Pull-ups if you do itcorrectly because we arch in the bottom
Wow. The best video on back I have seen so far. If you keep that level quality, the science fitnessyoutuber should be afraid (looking at you jeff😂)
Pull / chin ups is all what you need.
Could you please make a video about which repetition ranges are suitable for which muscles?
Thanks for the info, will definitely apply to my back training. I love pull ups too much to skip them though haha.
Thoughts on this?(when training back twice per week): Training A: Overhand grip pulldowns, Incline dumbell rows,pull overs, Training B: Seal rows, Underhand grip pulldowns, shrugs
I may be wrong but i think the lats as opposed to the long head of the triceps and front delts, do contribute more when you bend the elbow during a shoulder extension. Basically like a suppinated grip pullup (ideally with rings so you can go neutral grip in the stretched position).
Do you think kelso shrugs and shoulder depression isolation are maybe better for rhomboids mid and lower traps because you can use more weight=more weighted stretch with the same starting position then a row and a pulldown. When i finish my midback row and go to failure i got 5 reps without any rest i can hit 9 to 11 kelso shrugs after this set. Does this mean i should do them and my midback is maybe undertrained from rows ?
Any tips for when triceps seem to take over on pullovers?
Love pullovers for the lats but I definitely also get good chest stimulation with them.
I like the incline DB row, but what tip do you have for getting in position properly. That's the most awkward part.
Bro whats ur opinion on the weighted Chin Ups for overall back development?
I’m disabled and have problems with balance and so I’ve found using a seated cable row machine, if I use a straight bar, load the weight up, I can lean right back so my back is supported and I do my shrugs that way. Would you consider this approach? I’ve been getting good results from this method.
Hey doc, considering buying Versa Gripps as I want to target my back in the next meso and I think I start to feel early signs of tendinitis when pulling up. What are your thoughts on versas or similar?
My favorite is some kind of pull up for vertical pulling (assisted, bodyweight, weighted depending on how strong you are...). I find that with pull downs I tend to lean back too much and/or my hamstrings/calves start to cramp from flexing them to maintain stability. For rowing a strict deficit pendlay row (except I touch a bit lower than what would be considered a pendlay row by some), really lights up my entire back. I also like the hammer strength plate loaded chest supported row machine. Dumbbell rows would be ok, but our gym doesn't have heavy enough dbs. Tbar rows never felt right to me and my back was never the limiting factor for them (I've never tried the chest supported version tho). Not really a fan of cable rows either. And finally the conventional deadlift which isn't strictly speaking just a back lift but definitely works the back too.
None of those variations train the lower lats as their limiting factor, I think its worth a whole another video
For those who want to keep it simple and effective.
Ronnie Coleman’s back training exercises between which he roamed:
Barbell row
Single Dumbbell row
Narrow T bar row
Latpulldown overhand grip
Deadlifts
That’s it. Simplicity.
His focus were 75-80% rows.
Appreciate you actually coming out and having a real opinion at the end of this unlike peoplepleaser Jeff
Awesome video Wolf. I have hard time getting my lower lats to grow, what do you recommend for that ? Currently, I am doing lat pull downs, DLs, 1 arm rows, and machine rows for my back.
Can you make a video more in depth about the lower traps with good exercises are Y raises really better for that area than rows or pulldowns?
We see you doing lengthened partials on the DB Chest Supported Row but: do you think it might be beneficial to flex the upper back part of the spine (while keeping the chest in contact with the bench) with the umpf of the concentric phase when doing full ROM or should one only move the shoulders+scapula?
I would like to target as much upper back muscles as possible
Great video, just saw a similar video today from a biomechanics expert called Jordan Caporaletti who stated that the dumbbell pullover was the worst back exercise (specifically for lats) because the pectoral muscles got involved too much in this exercise. What are your thoughts about that?
When getting the muscle into a stretched position, does it matter if it happens when the muscle is active or passively stretched? EMG studies have shown that the Lats oly have about 8% activity during dumbeel pullover, meaning the triceps and pec major is the prime movers.
Dr wolf, how do guys that do calisthenics with only pull ups have such a big back all around. Do we really need rows
super video, very usefull,
Nice. Makes sense
Hey Milo! Do you have any advice on my PULL day? I normally do PPLPPLR.
An average session for me looks something like:
3 sets of pull-ups/pulldowns
2 sets of a dumbell row/chest supported machine row
2 sets of a different machine row
2 sets of dumbell shrugs
2 sets of behind the back cable curl
2 sets of machine preacher curl
Dr. Wolf, how would you structure a full exercise selection for a back workout, using only the exercises proposed in this video (if feasible)?
I do seated cable pullovers. Are they better than dumbbell pullovers?
A little off topic but I had a really interesting idea. Are there any studies comparing how much strength you lose when doing an exercise standing instead of sitting? We know that very unstable exercises aren’t great for hypertrophy, but what about when it’s only a small bit of instability, like a standing bs seated shoulder press?IF there was a study that showed standing up only decreases strength by 1-2 reps(ie standing RIR 1= seated RIR 3, then maybe it’d be worth it to train closer to failure in slightly unstable positions, and gain some more core stability as well. Maybe a study comparing strength loss from slight instability, and then a follow up comparing training closer to failure with unstable exercises to further from failure with very stable exercises? Or perhaps we can just estimate that it’s 1-2 reps and go straight to doing the second study? I’d love to hear your thoughts Dr Milo!
I wanna add addition to erectors training. We always told that we need always keep our lower back tight and dont flex it, but moving your back it's exactly what you need to train those musles.
So what you can do is for example:
1. Hyperextension on that 45 degree machine. But done with back extension on the top and beck curl on bottom, such as your activelly using your back muslce. For me personally it number 1, my lower back super sore after set to the failure and sometimes I have hard times stand and sit after working set.
2. Barbell/cable/dumbell flexion row. The same as you do regular unsupported row, but also move your lower back in opposite to made it stiff and stable. Effectifelly training it in the same time as you train. BTW, it's that kind of exercise which can train all of your back, so if you want only one - choose that one.
Have you tried db pull over with body across the bench. pelvis dropped below bench and head below bench looking towards floor.?…
whar about rear delts? should they be trained separatly or as a whole for the upper back?
arent the lats for pulldowns only active from 120 to 0 degree of extension and above that only teres major and rear delts ?
Pull ups+ rows the best)
Definitely! That's my go-to exercises plus deadlift with snatch grip
Inverted rows ftw
Bro is giving away information for free
@@johnhansel2593 That's what RUclips is.
Plus shrugs and pullover
I’d argue against the dumbbell pullover as it is limiting for progressive overload because after a while a persons grip &/or comfortability once they get to a larger dumbbell will be the limiting factor & not the lats itself.
Have you tried cable pull-over lying on a bench?
And for traps i really like smith machine shrugs, holding the bar behind, any thoughts on those?
Thank you for this video.
Assuming that the floor does not compromise the lengthened position (ROM) of the dumbbell pullover - would a decline bench give a better or worse stimulus than a flat bench?
Any tips for making commercial gym equipment (mostly thinking of machine rows and pulldown machines) more stretch friendly? Would you recommend adding weight and just aiming for the lengthened part, or use full ROM at first and then switch to lengthened as a intensifier?
Does the angle of the elbow matter when I do chest supported rows ?
Please make neck exercises video, considering science-based criteria you always use. Thanks
What are your thoughts on the snatch grip high pull for traps?
Big fan❤
Thank you king!
what do you think about hammer strenght pullover?
I've heard that vertical shrugs aren't good for upper traps because the upper trap fibers run horizontally and not vertically. What's your opinion on that take?
Yep, do them on a slight incline bench.