I Love hearing these great things about Queen Jane ! She doesn't get the recognition for what we Do for certain know of her, & it's education like this that will help make it happen! Dr. Lauren McKay Rocks!
Perhaps the most difficult of the Tudor consorts to bring alive, Dr Mackay has done Jane proud. I agree with her view that we should not be 'pitting' Anne and Jane against each other in order to explain the actions of Henry 🙂💕
And yet Jane had no empathy for Anne, and quite happily took her down. Do we only hold Henry responsible? Are not two individuals involved in an affair, and mistress who supports not just the shunning of, but the execution of the wife surely should face censure at any stage in history?
The imperial ambassador Eustace Chapuys wasn't impressed by Jane, describing her as medium height, “no great beauty”, “rather pale”, inclined to be “proud and haughty” and lacking wit. He didn’t like Anne Boleyn but I don’t think he was prejudice against Jane.
Everyone in that vipers nest had an angle.. but to ur point, I think the imperial camp was optimistic at the beginning of Jane’s run, so if anything, he’d want to gas her up and we don’t see that. I believe it…
Compassion? She wilfully pushed out his wife and happily had her head chopped off! How, in anyone's language, does that amount to compassion and understanding? Your rival is in a cold, terrifying tower, awaiting execution , while you have it off with her husband! It's pretty gross!
Jane was always the one of Henry’s wives that I never felt drawn to learning about, but Dr. MacKay has changed my mind! What a wonderful lecture! P.S. Do you know of any biographies of Jane that are worth reading?
I really enjoyed this talk. Thank you, Dr Mackay. I have read David Loades' excellent book on Jane, but felt like there had to be more to say about her than he was able to encapsulate. I hope you do find that extra evidence you've been looking for, because there are many aspects of her life I still wonder about. I do see Jane as manipulated by her family and Henry, far more than her predecessor Anne ever was. I always wonder how terrified she must have been in those months of her pregnancy, that it might all go the same way as it had done with Catherine and Anne. She must have been under such enormous pressure. Thank you, again.
Shaw we only liked her because she was a promoter of the Catholic faith. Do you really think shaw would be liking her if she is Jane Seymour were protestant?
I read that in examining what Richard III probably ate, the scientists found that he likely ate swans and peacocks. This was because even though they don't taste good, they carried prestige that an ordinary chicken or quail didn't. So I guess they were considered fit food for a king, lol.
Really interesting. The thing I never understand from the Anne Boleyn apologists/revisionists who blacken Jane's name is that if they are right in what they believe about Jane, she was only doing what Anne had already did. Nothing Jane did is comparable to the behaviour of Anne Boleyn, who acted as the King's mistress for several years (irrespective of whether she slept with him or not) in full glare of the Court and Catherine of Aragon
Ann Boleyn was despicable in conduct It’s hard to feel sorry for such a betrayer of all: her religion, her queen, her king, her brother, even her daughter who did nothing to rehabilitate her in decades of reign and left her to rot in an undignified place
I personally believe much of what people view about Anne is hindsight… she ‘led the king on’ by insisting on marriage and refusing to be his mistress. Um… there was NO precedent for a king overthrowing his wife for a non royal. I do t think Anne would have thought it possible Henry would see her as a potential wife until he finally proposed to her. She simply refused to be his mistress and did everything she could to get him to stop pursuing her outside of outright humiliating rejection because he had the power to make or break her whole family. Anne only agreed to be Henry’s companion after he proposed, and there’s no evidence she was particularly vengeful or hard until it became obvious it was going to be a lot harder for Henry to annul his marriage and her name was being dragged through the mud. When people get that type of criticism, it either breaks you or it makes you more determined. I think that happened to Anne somewhat, but she was also written about mainly by her enemies and frequently after her death when her reputation was destroyed thanks to Cromwell and Henry. If you look at her in those terms, you see a woman of high intelligence with many gifts who was fairly typically ambitious for her time but clearly showed signs of real kindness, religious conviction and charitable instincts. Out of all the people involved… Henry, Katherine, Mary, Cromwell, only Anne went to her death with regret and with some self reflection. All the others stubbornly believed they were in the right for everything they did. So who was the real Christian? If the path to marriage wasn’t so difficult, I think we’d have a much fairer and accurate understanding of her true character. It’s funny to me that Jane has gone down in history as the ‘good’ ‘meek’ wife. Whereas Anne was doggedly pursued by Henry, it’s pretty clear Jane pursued Henry, or was coached to do so. I don’t have much respect or sympathy for her. Even her meekness seems calculated to me. But it’s true that we know very little about her, so I’m basing my opinion based on what she did rather than what we know she said or thought. She’s basically had this one dimensional portrayal in history and it never rang true to me… no one is that simple minded and insipid.
In fairness to Anne they are pointing out that Jane isn’t as Lilly white as history has recorded her to be. Jane is given way too much credit for a lot of things that she had nothing to do with. You also blacken Anne name by saying she was carrying on with the king and such but failing to acknowledge that Jane did the exact same thing. Did you know for instance that Jane and Henry were seen having a conversation about their marriage. This was a few days after Anne had suffered a miscarriage. It may be buried deep due to an attempted rewrite of history by Henry but the role Jane played as well as her scheming in Anne end is still in the pages of history and can’t be changed. Let’s not forget the role Jane played in the neglect of Anne little girl.
Thanks for this video. I, too, have gotten tired of the standard tropes regarding Jane. Both she and Anne of Cleves get lost among the stories of Henry VIII’s other wives even though she was the only wife who successfully gave Henry his much longed for son. I often wonder how her relationship with Henry would’ve fared if she had lived longer and how that would’ve changed the history of the Tudors and of England.
What's to like? She could have begged Henry to spare Anne's life, which was a famous way women could.exert some.small agency in the 16th century. Instead Chapuys tells us that on hearing of Anne's execution, she tried on her wedding dress.
It is the cold way she walked over Anne body to jump into her bed and into her place that really does it. That is a whole lot of low to do that. Who Jane is as a person has been white washed by Henry which made her even more illusive.
I am a closet Jane Seymour fan. I agree, she did not want to be a mistress. I think she thought Anne was guilty. The seraphim angels were heavenly cobras, the snake represents fallen Angels. The peacock eats the fallen. Jane was kind of an old maid like Mary.
No one with sense thought Anne was guilty… even her worst enemies thought the charges were weak and implausible. Jane doesn’t seem overly bright, but she of all people as one of Anne’s attendants would have known it would have been virtually impossible for Anne to have multiple lovers without anyone knowing because she was never alone. Jane simply didn’t care than Anne was innocent. Either that’s because she never liked her for some reason or because of her own ambition. Either way, it’s not a good look.
Chapys past descriptions were always subjective and vile concerning his description of Anne Boleyn. He clearly was not a VALID source. He demonstrated that he could not be HONEST and OBJECTIVE .. so nothing is missed with the absence of his description of the Catholic Queen, Jane Seymour.
I’ve always felt an affinity with this Queens kind heart vs AB’s vengeful one. I think the point made well here is that this woman had a conscience and had no other real choice but to go along for the ride and work towards the best.
Ultimately Henry is the villain in all the wives’ stories, however, I think Jane is not as innocent as you think, and Anne is far more complex than simply having a ‘vengeful heart’. People are not one dimensional and that’s certainly true with the Six Wives.
@jackiemurphy1787 oh really? Is that why Henry was way worse to Mary AFTER Anne died? LOL he sent men to her home to threaten her life during his marriage to Jane! One of them told her she deserved to die while another said he would beat her head in until it was soft as a boiled apple if she wasn't the king's BASTARD daughter. Henry sent grown men to his daughter to do these things without Anne even being alive. Stop blaming that woman for how nasty and evil Henry was to his own flesh and blood. That had little to nothing to do with Anne. Anne offered Mary a legitimate title of Princess without the bastard tag on her name and wanted her to walk by her side in court. She offered this before AND after Catherine died. Anne became cruel towards Mary on occasion, but Henry was way worse and it was outside of the influence of his second wife. Meanwhile, Jane always showed blatant favoritism for Mary over Elizabeth. She was never kind or affectionate to her younger step daughter who had nothing to do with the adults' behavior. Jane was a sneaky, haughty, spiteful woman. The few recorded contemporary reports of her behavior prove it. Just because a monster like Henry perpetuated a lie about her character doesn't make it true 🙄
@jackiemurphy1787 now don't get me wrong, EVERYONE has the ability to be many things in their lifetime, so these people aren't one dimensional beings. I do just think it intriguing that so many people seem to believe the propaganda about Jane created by Henry's idealization of her. It is not always as it seems to be on the surface.
She wasn’t interested in Elizabeth. Elizabeth wasn’t born to a princess in her own right like Mary was. She would have viewed Elizabeth as an illegitimate child born of an unnatural Union. Poor Elizabeth was neglected and ignored during Jane reign.
I have always felt Jane was an accessory to Anne's murder. There's no evidence of empathy, or that she did anything to persuade Henry otherwise. A modern woman who got engaged to a man on the same day he executed his, wife would not be let off the hook so easily.
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I agree, she would have stayed on top…got one son..if she had a better childbirth, she might have had another. He would have had mistresses but she did enough to be mourned all over . Her coronation would have been amazing, marvellous. Not simple at all. Oh yes, she was strong.
Interesting about her background. Who knew? I didn’t about relationship to Edward111. Relationship are complicated. Yes, Henry noticed Jane, pulled the strings. So,what is truth and myth. Being the other women is not good in that age or any age no matter what. All women had to had virtue, and cannot say no to the king. A king needed a legitimate son, no wonder Katherine lost her head by fooling around, not good, silly.
My favorite Queen is Katherine of Aragon. I like Jane Seymour. I don't think she did anymore to Ann Boleyn then Ann did to Katherine, fair is fair. Jane just followed what Ann did and it worked. The problem was Henry not the women.
Anne tried to stop Henry from pursuing her but Jane actively encouraged it. I think we know who the real ‘other woman’ is… however Henry is the biggest villain in this story, not the wives.
Not to be cynical but calling her The Peacemaker was an elegant manipulation, as they had high hopes that she’d champion the Empirical agenda, ie legitimizing Mary/Papacy reunion, etc… It’s diplomatic perfection lol It was my understanding that she didn’t put in much political effort until later, leading some of her support to fall away.
The selection of Jane Seymour showed Henry that he was right about choosing her as a spouse was right and in line with his Devine right. I don’t think that he thought much about her as much as her belly. He was a man like other men. Her death must have shaken him, why would God punish him this way. I will always love and respect Anne never Jane.
@lorettabridges7751 Jane death could have also triggered emotions that he hadn’t dealt with for years before Jane death. I am talking about the death of Henry mother who also died in childbed. These days you would get counselling. Henry turned to comfort eating instead and locked himself away
What’s admirable about Jane trying to reconcile Henry with Mary, while ignoring Elizabeth Elizabeth was a daughter, too, when a stepmother ignores one stepdaughter, and praises the other, that does not make her a good person that makes her having a motivations other than genuine kindness
That wasn’t Jane doing. She didn’t reunite Henry with Mary. She is given credit but this was actually Chapyus who reunited father and daughter. Jane actually did very little in her time as Queen though she is made out to be some sort of Angel. Dig a little deeper and you find out who really was behind all Jane great achievements. The one who really brought the family back together was Catherine Parr and she doesn’t get any credit for that either.
I Love hearing these great things about Queen Jane ! She doesn't get the recognition for what we Do for certain know of her, & it's education like this that will help make it happen! Dr. Lauren McKay Rocks!
She did not have a coronation, but she had a coronation/burial for her, a Queen’s burial.
Perhaps the most difficult of the Tudor consorts to bring alive, Dr Mackay has done Jane proud. I agree with her view that we should not be 'pitting' Anne and Jane against each other in order to explain the actions of Henry 🙂💕
Right on
And yet Jane had no empathy for Anne, and quite happily took her down. Do we only hold Henry responsible? Are not two individuals involved in an affair, and mistress who supports not just the shunning of, but the execution of the wife surely should face censure at any stage in history?
The imperial ambassador Eustace Chapuys wasn't impressed by Jane, describing her as medium height, “no great beauty”, “rather pale”, inclined to be “proud and haughty” and lacking wit. He didn’t like Anne Boleyn but I don’t think he was prejudice against Jane.
Everyone in that vipers nest had an angle.. but to ur point, I think the imperial camp was optimistic at the beginning of Jane’s run, so if anything, he’d want to gas her up and we don’t see that. I believe it…
Thanks, this was wonderful.
Compassion, understanding, yes, that was Jane…..she was pretty strong in her own right considering your putting up with Henry.
Compassion? She wilfully pushed out his wife and happily had her head chopped off! How, in anyone's language, does that amount to compassion and understanding? Your rival is in a cold, terrifying tower, awaiting execution , while you have it off with her husband! It's pretty gross!
Jane was always the one of Henry’s wives that I never felt drawn to learning about, but Dr. MacKay has changed my mind! What a wonderful lecture!
P.S. Do you know of any biographies of Jane that are worth reading?
Always wondered about all the wives, always interesting. Relationships are complicated, eh, even a kings.
I really enjoyed this talk. Thank you, Dr Mackay. I have read David Loades' excellent book on Jane, but felt like there had to be more to say about her than he was able to encapsulate. I hope you do find that extra evidence you've been looking for, because there are many aspects of her life I still wonder about. I do see Jane as manipulated by her family and Henry, far more than her predecessor Anne ever was. I always wonder how terrified she must have been in those months of her pregnancy, that it might all go the same way as it had done with Catherine and Anne. She must have been under such enormous pressure. Thank you, again.
Enjoyed this podcast, well researched and well spoken thank you 😊
I'm very glad!
Shaw we only liked her because she was a promoter of the Catholic faith. Do you really think shaw would be liking her if she is Jane Seymour were protestant?
I read that in examining what Richard III probably ate, the scientists found that he likely ate swans and peacocks. This was because even though they don't taste good, they carried prestige that an ordinary chicken or quail didn't. So I guess they were considered fit food for a king, lol.
How do you know they don't taste good?
@@eugeniasyro5774 I'm relying on what a historian said in a documentary. He said that swan and peacock meat was tough and unpalatable.
Really interesting. The thing I never understand from the Anne Boleyn apologists/revisionists who blacken Jane's name is that if they are right in what they believe about Jane, she was only doing what Anne had already did. Nothing Jane did is comparable to the behaviour of Anne Boleyn, who acted as the King's mistress for several years (irrespective of whether she slept with him or not) in full glare of the Court and Catherine of Aragon
Ann Boleyn was despicable in conduct
It’s hard to feel sorry for such a betrayer of all: her religion, her queen, her king, her brother, even her daughter who did nothing to rehabilitate her in decades of reign and left her to rot in an undignified place
@@angelabender8132 Might I suggest reading - ANNE BOLEYN: 500 YEARS OF LIES? From this it may give you a new perspective of Anne.
I personally believe much of what people view about Anne is hindsight… she ‘led the king on’ by insisting on marriage and refusing to be his mistress. Um… there was NO precedent for a king overthrowing his wife for a non royal. I do t think Anne would have thought it possible Henry would see her as a potential wife until he finally proposed to her. She simply refused to be his mistress and did everything she could to get him to stop pursuing her outside of outright humiliating rejection because he had the power to make or break her whole family. Anne only agreed to be Henry’s companion after he proposed, and there’s no evidence she was particularly vengeful or hard until it became obvious it was going to be a lot harder for Henry to annul his marriage and her name was being dragged through the mud. When people get that type of criticism, it either breaks you or it makes you more determined. I think that happened to Anne somewhat, but she was also written about mainly by her enemies and frequently after her death when her reputation was destroyed thanks to Cromwell and Henry. If you look at her in those terms, you see a woman of high intelligence with many gifts who was fairly typically ambitious for her time but clearly showed signs of real kindness, religious conviction and charitable instincts. Out of all the people involved… Henry, Katherine, Mary, Cromwell, only Anne went to her death with regret and with some self reflection. All the others stubbornly believed they were in the right for everything they did. So who was the real Christian? If the path to marriage wasn’t so difficult, I think we’d have a much fairer and accurate understanding of her true character.
It’s funny to me that Jane has gone down in history as the ‘good’ ‘meek’ wife. Whereas Anne was doggedly pursued by Henry, it’s pretty clear Jane pursued Henry, or was coached to do so. I don’t have much respect or sympathy for her. Even her meekness seems calculated to me. But it’s true that we know very little about her, so I’m basing my opinion based on what she did rather than what we know she said or thought. She’s basically had this one dimensional portrayal in history and it never rang true to me… no one is that simple minded and insipid.
In fairness to Anne they are pointing out that Jane isn’t as Lilly white as history has recorded her to be. Jane is given way too much credit for a lot of things that she had nothing to do with. You also blacken Anne name by saying she was carrying on with the king and such but failing to acknowledge that Jane did the exact same thing. Did you know for instance that Jane and Henry were seen having a conversation about their marriage. This was a few days after Anne had suffered a miscarriage. It may be buried deep due to an attempted rewrite of history by Henry but the role Jane played as well as her scheming in Anne end is still in the pages of history and can’t be changed. Let’s not forget the role Jane played in the neglect of Anne little girl.
Man, you're manipulative - casting insults and aspersions on those who dare to disagree with you on an historical character! How nasty!
I d like to know more about the origin of the Seymour name ( my maiden names) and the Seymour crest, I’ve seen more than one version of the crest.
Thanks for this video. I, too, have gotten tired of the standard tropes regarding Jane. Both she and Anne of Cleves get lost among the stories of Henry VIII’s other wives even though she was the only wife who successfully gave Henry his much longed for son. I often wonder how her relationship with Henry would’ve fared if she had lived longer and how that would’ve changed the history of the Tudors and of England.
Me too
Katherine of Aragon gave him two sons. It wasn’t her fault the little boys didn’t live long.
You know for some reason I just can't like Jane Seymour. I don't know, maybe it's her brothers Edward and Thomas.
What's to like? She could have begged Henry to spare Anne's life, which was a famous way women could.exert some.small agency in the 16th century. Instead Chapuys tells us that on hearing of Anne's execution, she tried on her wedding dress.
It is the cold way she walked over Anne body to jump into her bed and into her place that really does it. That is a whole lot of low to do that. Who Jane is as a person has been white washed by Henry which made her even more illusive.
I am a closet Jane Seymour fan. I agree, she did not want to be a mistress. I think she thought Anne was guilty. The seraphim angels were heavenly cobras, the snake represents fallen Angels. The peacock eats the fallen. Jane was kind of an old maid like Mary.
No one with sense thought Anne was guilty… even her worst enemies thought the charges were weak and implausible. Jane doesn’t seem overly bright, but she of all people as one of Anne’s attendants would have known it would have been virtually impossible for Anne to have multiple lovers without anyone knowing because she was never alone. Jane simply didn’t care than Anne was innocent. Either that’s because she never liked her for some reason or because of her own ambition. Either way, it’s not a good look.
Chapys past descriptions were always subjective and vile concerning his description of Anne Boleyn. He clearly was not a VALID source.
He demonstrated that he could not be HONEST and OBJECTIVE .. so nothing is missed with the absence of his description of the Catholic Queen, Jane Seymour.
I’ve always felt an affinity with this Queens kind heart vs AB’s vengeful one. I think the point made well here is that this woman had a conscience and had no other real choice but to go along for the ride and work towards the best.
...Jane actually purposely taunted Anne to the point of them coming to physical blows.. Jane was the instigator lol. That's nasty behavior.
Ultimately Henry is the villain in all the wives’ stories, however, I think Jane is not as innocent as you think, and Anne is far more complex than simply having a ‘vengeful heart’. People are not one dimensional and that’s certainly true with the Six Wives.
@@MEAJJEKL she was kind to the ones he cast aside for Anne aka Mary.
@jackiemurphy1787 oh really? Is that why Henry was way worse to Mary AFTER Anne died? LOL he sent men to her home to threaten her life during his marriage to Jane! One of them told her she deserved to die while another said he would beat her head in until it was soft as a boiled apple if she wasn't the king's BASTARD daughter. Henry sent grown men to his daughter to do these things without Anne even being alive. Stop blaming that woman for how nasty and evil Henry was to his own flesh and blood. That had little to nothing to do with Anne.
Anne offered Mary a legitimate title of Princess without the bastard tag on her name and wanted her to walk by her side in court. She offered this before AND after Catherine died. Anne became cruel towards Mary on occasion, but Henry was way worse and it was outside of the influence of his second wife.
Meanwhile, Jane always showed blatant favoritism for Mary over Elizabeth. She was never kind or affectionate to her younger step daughter who had nothing to do with the adults' behavior. Jane was a sneaky, haughty, spiteful woman. The few recorded contemporary reports of her behavior prove it. Just because a monster like Henry perpetuated a lie about her character doesn't make it true 🙄
@jackiemurphy1787 now don't get me wrong, EVERYONE has the ability to be many things in their lifetime, so these people aren't one dimensional beings. I do just think it intriguing that so many people seem to believe the propaganda about Jane created by Henry's idealization of her. It is not always as it seems to be on the surface.
And if Jane had such a wonderful element in her character, why didn’t she try to build a bond with Elizabeth and bring Elizabeth to court???
She wasn’t interested in Elizabeth. Elizabeth wasn’t born to a princess in her own right like Mary was. She would have viewed Elizabeth as an illegitimate child born of an unnatural Union. Poor Elizabeth was neglected and ignored during Jane reign.
I have always felt Jane was an accessory to Anne's murder. There's no evidence of empathy, or that she did anything to persuade Henry otherwise. A modern woman who got engaged to a man on the same day he executed his, wife would not be let off the hook so easily.
Hi You don't like Francis Bryan .....He was a rogue a man of action Queen Elizabeth liked him and he was the son of Lady Bryan who took charge of Elizabeth at Hatfield Check out his life and career you might change your mind about him
Very delicate situation, a mistress is always the other woman, no legitimate son
Jane's brothers were rapacious climbers. I would look to them.
I agree, she would have stayed on top…got one son..if she had a better childbirth, she might have had another. He would have had mistresses but she did enough to be mourned all over . Her coronation would have been amazing, marvellous. Not simple at all. Oh yes, she was strong.
Clearly I’m not the factual historian you are. I respect you viewpoint dear lady. 😅
Has to be Henry idea, him only
I believe that had Jane not had a Boy….
And had GIRLS or multiple miscarriages…she would have had a subsequent scaffold built for her.
Interesting about her background. Who knew? I didn’t about relationship to Edward111. Relationship are complicated. Yes, Henry noticed Jane, pulled the strings. So,what is truth and myth. Being the other women is not good in that age or any age no matter what. All women had to had virtue, and cannot say no to the king. A king needed a legitimate son, no wonder Katherine lost her head by fooling around, not good, silly.
My favorite Queen is Katherine of Aragon. I like Jane Seymour. I don't think she did anymore to Ann Boleyn then Ann did to Katherine, fair is fair. Jane just followed what Ann did and it worked. The problem was Henry not the women.
Anne tried to stop Henry from pursuing her but Jane actively encouraged it. I think we know who the real ‘other woman’ is… however Henry is the biggest villain in this story, not the wives.
Not to be cynical but calling her The Peacemaker was an elegant manipulation, as they had high hopes that she’d champion the Empirical agenda, ie legitimizing Mary/Papacy reunion, etc…
It’s diplomatic perfection lol
It was my understanding that she didn’t put in much political effort until later, leading some of her support to fall away.
She wasn’t the peacemaker even though she got credit for it. That was the Spanish Ambassador doing
The selection of Jane Seymour showed Henry that he was right about choosing her as a spouse was right and in line with his Devine right. I don’t think that he thought much about her as much as her belly. He was a man like other men. Her death must have shaken him, why would
God punish him this way. I will always love and respect Anne never Jane.
@lorettabridges7751 Jane death could have also triggered emotions that he hadn’t dealt with for years before Jane death. I am talking about the death of Henry mother who also died in childbed. These days you would get counselling. Henry turned to comfort eating instead and locked himself away
What’s admirable about Jane trying to reconcile Henry with Mary, while ignoring Elizabeth Elizabeth was a daughter, too, when a stepmother ignores one stepdaughter, and praises the other, that does not make her a good person that makes her having a motivations other than genuine kindness
That wasn’t Jane doing. She didn’t reunite Henry with Mary. She is given credit but this was actually Chapyus who reunited father and daughter. Jane actually did very little in her time as Queen though she is made out to be some sort of Angel. Dig a little deeper and you find out who really was behind all Jane great achievements. The one who really brought the family back together was Catherine Parr and she doesn’t get any credit for that either.