Episode 90: Jonathan Pageau and Martin Shaw Part One: History, Myths, Liturgy & the Power of Stories
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- Опубликовано: 22 ноя 2022
- Welcome to More Christ. We seek to bring some of the world's most interesting and insightful guests to discuss life's central and abiding questions.
In this ninetieth episode in a series of discussions, I'm joined once more by Jonathan Pageau and Dr Martin Shaw.
Jonathan carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images. He also designs products, teaches, and makes fantastic videos for The Symbolic World that explore how ancient patterns can re-enchant our contemporary life. Please check out Jonathan's channel: / jonathanpageau
Martin is regarded as one of the most outstanding new teachers of the mythic imagination. Visiting fellow at Schumacher college in the U.K., he has also devised and lead the Oral Tradition course at Stanford university in the U.S. He is the author of the award winning; A Branch from The Lightning Tree, Snowy Tower, Scatterlings, Smoke Hole, and other classics.
Martin now leads a bustling schedule of conferences, gatherings, and wilderness retreats over several continents.
One I want to mention, will involve Martin and Paul Kingsnorth at Benburb Priory in November. (Saturday 26th November 2022)
You can see our first conversation, here:
• Episode 79: Dr Martin ...
Martin's website:
drmartinshaw.com/
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You're knocking it out o the park lately Mark! :)
Thank you, Paul! I do it all for the PVK commentary videos! :)
@@MoreChristthe noblest of all goals! 👌🏻😤
I see a Martin Shaw binge in my near future
I’m on it right now. Ecstatic
Discovered him the other day via Paul Kingsnorth. Even better, IMO
Jonathan Pageau really liked that last part, where Martin Shaw says that he hears Christ coming when Achilles is in the underworld saying he would rather be a slave to a poor man than king of the underworld.
🤯
I think that a pagans biggest weakness is not Jonathan Pageau, it is someone like Martin Shaw who can speak to a pagan in the language of their mythology.
Jonathan should consider adding Martin Shaw as a contributor to his Universal History video series. This was a good start for a relationship between them that I hope continues to develop. Thank you for this video and hope there's a part 2 because it seems it ended without a conclusion.
There will at least be a part two. Hopefully, more after that. I think there's potential for much good fruit, here.
So exciting to see Martin Shaw suddenly appearing in this circle of Christians, bringing a slightly different energy with him that can stoke up the fire.
The image of the wild Christ taps into this energy that brings Jesus back to life in our imagination. We often wonder about the contrast between his meekness (the lamb of God) and his bold statements about the vipers in the synagogues. Hand on heart, we love to see him in righteous anger whipping the money tenders in the temple just as much as hearing his forgiving words to his executioners. But both of these characteristics fit in with his "wildness" - always being outside of the contemporary order and everybody's expectations. .....
First!
Can't wait for Part 2!
I love seeing my favorite channels intermingle
Thank you making this happen Mark! This conversation was an intersection I was really hoping for… like two live wires meeting, sparking off flashes of light in the dark and momentarily illuminating the rippling inner folds of an ancient cave. Wonderful
This episode has struck a powerful cord in my spirit. The way martin talks about nature is so deep its broken something inside of me that was holding me back from the wild earth.
It ended very suddenly and then I remembered that it was only part one! Looking forward to part two!
I should have done a 'to be continued'. :)
Maith sigh
Wonderful to hear our little corner get greater notice in this little corner
Go raibh maith agat!
What an interesting fellow this Martin Shaw is!
I saw an animated series lately called Vinland Saga. It follows English and Viking history and has many famous people in it but what really captured me was how they treated Christianity. It first Christians seem weak and pathetic, you feel sorry for them but as the story goes on the main character finds himself and others in an endless cycle of violence and the subtle teachings of Christ prove to be the only answer and response that can end the hate, the slavery, the murder, etc. I’m not sure that the maker of the cartoon had that as their purpose, but it was just so powerful to see.
Haven’t watched yet but this just can’t go wrong 😄
29:05 What actually seems to be happening in America is a bunch of evangelicals converting and transforming Orthodoxy in America to just be evangelicalism with smells and bells. We need English speaking people to revive their own mythic and mystical roots, Anglicanism has to be revivified, to be the English speaking expression of Orthodoxy it has the potential to be. There is a unique genius for seeing the role of Imagination (MacDonald, Barfield, Coleridge, Malcolm Guite in our own time etc.,) that the East never tapped into (it generally misunderstands and is hostile to imagination). This comes, admittedly through the Celtic influence. If this happens then we have something to give back to the East in exchange for the Treasures they have given us. Then again, maybe this is just a story I tell myself to justify remaining Anglican, but I think I am seeing something real here.
Good point! I think I agree with you on this, Nate. After reading Dr David Fagerberg and Dr Jens Zimmermann. There are emphases in the western Christian churches which are an organic growth rather than a corruption.
There are more open Orthodox figures like Dr Paul Ladouceur and Fr. John Behr, who I think point to this growth within Orthodoxy too. Many Orthodox don't want to use words like 'development' but if we are talking about the corporate body of Christ, it does grow over time, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. If it didn't, it'd be a corpse.
Many new converts to Orthodoxy who have English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish ancestry choose patron Saints from the ancient church of those places. There is a great interest in pre-Reformation Church. Let's face it, the English Reformation destroyed the church in the Isles as documented in Eamon Duffy's book and the thousand rural whitewashed parishes and ruined monesteries.
Well said. If anything the orthodox / pageauian vision of reality is the symbolic tonic from a land far off that we must not confuse with the reality of the true character of a healthily particular Christian Britain.
The EO say that Christ baptises cultures, if so that doesn't mean abandoning your heritage for a Greek, Russian or Syrian story. However, the way I see it is that in the colonial countries there is such confusion of heritage that we achieve that Modernist goal were we loose the traditions of our heritage. Now perhaps the only way to revive it is in the post-modern practise of picking and choosing from historic or contemporary related traditions.
If the EO can unite the Greek, Russian, Syrian etc stories into one as well as not deny the British, Germanic, Hispanic, indigenous etc stories they will achieve your goal. Yet it took 500 odd years for Angle, Saxon, Jute, Romano-Brit, Dane, and Norman to become the English; and my faith tradition from the southern Baltic a little later never seemed to unite the Wendish, Silesian, Old Prussian, and Teutonic (Saxon mainly) stories into one (aside of course for the whole, 'forced baptisms are valid, but not the best').
Perhaps in time things might change, yet I don't see any interest from the EO in engaging honestly the tradition of Anonymous of York nor Johann Hamann. More unfortunately I'm not sure the British Christian traditions nor the Lutherans of today are all that interested in heritage either.
PS. all that said, the EO have stolen a lot of our Lutheran catchphrases like: "It's a mystery", "why not both?, "hold in tension"
@@ButterBobBriggs Like the Reformed on the continent and the Radical Pietists in the Lutheran lands; although St Ansgar is still honoured.
These two interviews are excellent. I learnt so much and I have some great reading to be done. Many thanks for doing this!
Thank you. So great you let them met together 💗. Beautiful!
20:00 Weird things indeed. My recent conversation with the Maximus scholar Jordan Daniel Wood deals entirely with precisely these weird things. Wonderful job getting these two together.
Another book for my reading list! :) Thank you, Nate!
Can’t wait to see what emerges from this serendipitous meeting.
Two of my fave people! Can’t wait
“They want Him to either be John the Baptist or St. Francis of Assisi…” ☠️☠️☠️😂😂😂 Nail on the head! Actually laughed out loud and had to pause when he said that.
I’ve walked by that very cathedral numerous times while visiting San Francisco and have yet to go in. I did try once, but it was locked. I can see it in my minds eye!
This is brilliant.
Being God is a living intelligent being, then human religious experiences will evolve into new spiritual symbolisms. Symbolisms which will reveal modern mankind's relationship with living God.
And Jesus' teachings revealing the true nature of God, is a guiding light and uplifting embrace.
Loved this guy!
What about telling some of your dreams Martin ..the mythic thinking you and JBP have the insight and courage to mention our connection to our inner nature,sensory functions . As it now proved even scientific that We dream Every night ,our creativity source the purest source of imagination ..
Best vid I’ve seen in a long time
I tried Orthodoxy for a couple of years. I spent 2 years as a Greek Orthodox Catechumen. I was a protestant before that. After 2 years, reading deeper into the Fathers, including the Councils, I swam the Tiber. I consider myself a Byzantine Catholic, though I belong to a Roman rite parish. When I can, I drive to a Byzantine Church, but it isn't practical to belong there full time.
Some of my favourite interviews have been with Byzantine Catholic, Dr Michael Martin.
Martin Shaw perhaps you might listen to Beyond these Shores a record by the band Iona.
The Book of Kells is also excellent.
Early 90’s
I’m surprised the Irish Book of Invasions wasn’t mentioned. Looking forward to Part 2!
Loved that he mentioned the Hungarian myth in connection to Nimrod since I had just learned about that today. Providence. The source I saw indicated that this was probably to lay a claim to the lands of Attila the Hun, since they claimed Nimrods two sons were the founders of the Huns and Magyar
As someone being interested in Orthodoxy I have lots of questions. Mostly Devils lawyers questions LOL. In there a good forum to come with those questions?
Great what Marin Shaw said about the animals in the church. I so agree. Animals are amazing teachers of peace
Brilliant!
if you drop part 2 before dec 31 it will surely also be one of the best vids of the year ;)
This was great!
Anam Chara by John o'Donghue was a big book in the 90s.
Very much of that hungering spoken of in this chat. As the Irish R.C. Church was, frankly, burning itself down even in the 90s, there was a widespread drive for Anam Chara.
A great book! And one influenced by the mighty mind of Dr William Desmond.
I remain a big fan of John O’ Donahue. Must be my distant Irish ancestor drawing me back to this kind of worship and story telling.
Thank you for drawing attention to John O’Donahue. Even his life and death follow the patterns.
25:57 what a thrilling metaphor... Christians as fish natively swim in the Deeps, tips of light in the abyss when you thought it was a void... stunning.
Amen!
When Leibniz was pumping young Tschirnhausen for a full report concerning the latter’s visit to Spinoza, it was mentioned that Spinoza had said “Christ is the greatest philosopher.” This account is from, as I recall, Leibniz’ correspondence. Spinoza, while acknowledging reason, stated that it is not “the highest thing in us.” An experience I had on 12-7-1970, my 19th birthday removed from me the notion that there was anything other than “Deus sive Natura” and a couple of years later, I met my Spinoza master, a door to door salesman. If you have not yet read Einstein’s love poem to Spinoza, or Spinoza’s discussion of omens with Peter Balling, then you may be stuck in the scholarly meaning of “the Enlightenment,” which barely skims the surface of the work of the man Einstein believed to be the greatest modern philosopher, who, according to Einstein, dissolved the so-called “mind-body problem.” -d., retired carpenter, and cabinet maker.
WOW this is perhaps my favorite conversation by Pageau so far! It was great to see Jonathan was clearly enjoying this and making connections. This is my introduction to Shaw and I am instantly impressed and looking into his work now. Also, it was great to see Shaw bringing in Marcas into the conversation unlike other guests in the past. THANKS Marcas!
Lovely comment. Thank you! Martin is really good at that- listening intently and asking great questions of those around him. :) I liked that he showed an interest in my perspective, as I'm just some guy. Haha
“I don’t think you can draw Him (Yeshua) in one line.” -Martin Shaw
This reminds me of a wonderful quote from Friedensreich Hundertwasser (which translates to “Peace Kingdom of a hundred waters).
“In 1953 I realized that the straight line leads to the downfall of mankind. But the straight line has become an absolute tyranny. The straight line is something cowardly drawn with a rule, without thought or feeling; it is a line which does not exist in nature. And that the line is the rotten foundation of our doomed civilization. Even if there are certain places where it is recognized that this line is rapidly leading to perdition, its course continues to be plotted. The straight line is godless and immoral.
The straight line is the only uncreative line, the only line which does not suit man as the image of God. The straight line is the forbidden fruit. The straight line is the curse of our civilization. Any design undertaken with the straight line will be stillborn.
Today we are witnessing the triumph of rationalist knowhow and yet, at the same time, we find ourselves confronted with emptiness. An aesthetic void, desert of uniformity, criminal sterility, loss of creative power. Even creativity is prefabricated. We have become impotent. We are no longer able to create. That is our real illiteracy.”
* Please pass this quote on to Martin, if he isn’t already familiar with it I think he is just the person to appreciate it.
In conjuction to what Achilles confesses in Hades (that he would rather be a slave on earth than rule in Hades), one must also take into account the subsequent story to the Iliad and the Odyssey, being that of the tragedy of the Troades (Τρωαδες): The Trojan Women or The Women of Troy, written by EURPIDES (and produced in 415 b.C., during the Peloponnesian War) as it exemplifies the need for repentance (for the harm one causes to others and ultimately to themselves and to the community at large), which is fundamental to the Christian Orthodox faith.
Listening 👂 to this video again.
I absolutely love the content of your show. I just find it really hard to hear what you are saying sometimes. As in intonation and articulation. Keep up the good work and thank you for clearly showing other related works and books.
✨📚
wow!
I believe it's actually a tricky thing to try to bring something valuable from the underworld. Christ brings up everything from the underworld, but it's something that is still difficult to say. Because the hero myth is a pagan version of this where the hero brings an idiosyncrasy from the underworld, and it becomes a celebration of the underworld. But Christ endures the underworld, He never inverts it or glorifies it as death. He turns death into glory, which is a different thing.
Regarding the image of the fish, every passion can be redeemed, and in those passions lies the key to our dignity. If all the passions can reflect God then we do not need to find God's essence, to know the path that truth took to lead us into higher truths (light jumping from light). We can simply accept the mystery as it is and trust in God. That is the meaning of the lots in the Bible... the lots represent the very bottom of manifestation, which can go either way, for God or for the enemy.
40:45 Jonathan has also repeated this idea that Christ is not Francis of Assisi, and in a way this is true, but in a more important way I have to disagree, or at least point at another aspect. Christ's hypostasis is the ground of both identity and difference (this absolutely follows from taking John 1, seriously, and of course is developed in Maximus: “the Word of God, very God, wills always and in all things to actualize the mystery of his Incarnation.” ) so St. Francis and St. John are both different from and identical with Christ at the same time, as is everything else in Creation (which simply is the Mystery of Christ non-identically repeated in all things, through their logoi). The ability of St. John and Francis to manifest Christ differently is grounded in Christ. This means Christ is always revealed in a unique and unrepeatable way in every being. It is a story that grows in the telling shall we say and the ground of there being a story at all.
"Christ plays in ten thousand places,
Lovely in limbs,
and lovely in eyes not his
To the Father,
through the features of men's faces."
- Gerard Manley Hopkins
That's an interesting reflection on Baptism, and union with Christ. If we are sons by virtue of our union with The only Son, then it's just as you say. This though is a much more particular manifestation than simply 'in Him we live and move and have our being'.
Curious.
"I love to see Christians be Christians" it's scary how profound that is
My patron Saint, Saint Erc, was one of those pagan's converted by Saint Patrick's tongue.
34:00 traditional life
major dudes!
Ahhh such a cliffhanger
The Irish are still mythological people.
Catholics at 37:38 👀
Does anyone know where I can find Shaw's beekeeping story that Jonathan mentions? Thanks.
Ok but I want to hear the bees story…
Here's the thing. The countenance of sincere Christians is the telling thing. There is always such warmth and intelligence in their faces. Just something I've noticed.
Anyone know the story of the bees they’re referring to?
Are the books referenced in this episode listed somewhere?
There's a general list here and episode lists for the last couple of episodes:
www.amazon.co.uk/shop/morechrist/list/20QSQM4L06O1F?tag=onamzmarkconn-21&ref_=aip_sf_list_spv_ons_mixed_d
I wonder what Jamie Moran’s passion writings might spark in you. I myself am energized by his vision of joining Christ in courageous sacrificial love in the world for the world. I do think he misunderstands the acetical-monastic path though, which is a spiritual warrior path, a road of passion and compassion following Christ in the wilderness, joining Christ on the front in the spiritual war against evil that remains and reigns in this world, for the world’s redemption. We see this in countless ascetics and monastic saints to the present day, not least St Silouan of Athos and his spiritual son St Sophrony of Essex, England, St Paisios of Athos, and St Porphyrios of Athos/Athens and so many others. And the miracles people experienced with these spiritual warriors are like out of the Bible, myth and fairy tale…and they happened. God is real, Christ is risen, the Spirit is present and blows where it will.
koed.hu/nation/jamie.pdf