The 1984 version's navigator entrance scene is absoulutely outstanding for it's conception and effect to me. Whoever designed the navigator interpretation did a fantastic job and created a mass of mutation and atmosphere that I feel has never been bettered in sci-fi cinema. I also seem to be one of the few who prefer the protective fighting shield interpretation in the training scene in this movie as it fits in perfectly with the whole steampunky/victorian look of the film. Great presentation and info thanks.
I hate to be THAT GUY, but the nevigators do not "fold space", the "Holtzman engines" do that, the navigator is there for his prescience, he is there to foresee any danger in the "folded route", so that the ship ("Heighliner") wouldn't pass through a planet or a sun that could exist in between the two points of fold.
@@timbosplice8437 Nevertheless, in the Butlerian jihad series, before having navigators and while computers that helped plan safe path were banned, the human fleet would lose 10% of thier ships every time they used the Holtzman engines...
A friend gave me the Dune Trilogy .. I read the first few pages of the first book, put the book down and didn't read further. This same friend took me to see the movie in 1984 .. it was so strange, I recall wondering why it wouldn't end and wishing it would. Then 10 years later, one night late, I caught the 1984 version on some cable channel .. at the point when Paul and Jessica were escaping. Either because I was older then or I cared to pay more attention, something clicked. Since then, I don't know how many times I've seen the various versions of the 1984 film nor how many times I've ready the books but Dune is my most favorite sci-fi. The depth is amazing. So many details. Denis' version is just eye candy with great writing, that while he skips some portions that provide that depth I love, he remains faithful to the idea that is Dune.
I really hoped there would be a deeper explanation of the spider in the sequel, whether it was delving a bit more into the Harkonnen's constant experimentation of life forms or the rumor that it was Dr. Yueh's kidnapped wife (although when he was sent to "join" her I imagine that should have dispelled that belief).
I hope it will look somewhat like the 1984 grotesque version. It looks physically very impractical and it's huge head hints at it's extraordinary mental capabilities I like the idea that being a navigator is a complete physical curse and prison counterbalanced by it's mental blessings.
As much as I love the DV movies, I think he shrouded the guild in too much mystery to the point that they are practically non existent. A few more scenes with the representatives in the background to remind us that they exist would have fixed this. Fingers crossed for Dune Prophecy
The robed figures with massive headgear in Part One (the anoinment ceremony on Caladan) may be a small glimpse on these guys. I am sad that's gonna take at least three more years for Messiah, if not more.
@@EdWiley671Thufir says "three guild navigators" but the guy in orange headgear are five. Maybe there's a discrepancy or two of these aren't full fledged navigators.
What I miss from that version? I do miss the "Spacing Guild" and the especially the "Guild Navigators". I am really a bit confused why he didn't show one of them, even more when you think about the fact that he showed us octopus-like creatures in a kind of gas tank in "Arrival"!? 🤔 Also I don't like the depiction of "Chani". These movies, especially the second one were a cool kind of "event" in the cinema. And I do like some movies from the director, especially "Blade Runner 2049". But I was a little bit disappointed with "Dune Part 2". Many will call me crazy but with all his flaws I still like David Lynch's version a little bit more. 😕
One thing I did appreciate about the scene in 84 between the navigator and emporer, is how the navigator was able to see the ultimate plan the emporer was cooking up. Although it was heavy on exposition and explained everything too much, I appreciated how it provided a little context more and explained why Paul was a threat.
Thanks for your video.i like the navigators from all filmed versions but you are right that in the new films they are missing.greetings from Vienna/Austria from me jürgen vicepresident of Vulkan Spirit
My first exposure to Dune 1984 was around 1986. I was 6 years old. My Mom was taping it for my adult sister from HBO. We came home from somewhere and turned on the tv just in time to catch the Baron pull the heart plug on someone and blood splatter everywhere. My Mom turned it off, but not before I got an eyeful. Same sister later got mad at me for writing sci-fi and horror short stories when I was a teenager. I really hope the guild navigators appear in Dune 3. But I will love it either way, I am sure.
@ROVA00 Yep. HBO and ON TV. HBO (Home Box Office) first became available on November 8, 1972, launching as a subscription television service in the United States. It was initially available to subscribers in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, marking the start of its operation as a pay television service offering uncut and commercial-free movies and special events.
One thing is for sure.. The guild navigators at the end of book 1 are part of the reason why pauls threat works and the emperor has to abide. Maybe that's why the fremen immediately had to jump in ships to fight the houses at the end of the 2nd movie. It was kinda weird seeing them immediately jump on the warships. They knew how to fly them? The atreides army was destroyed and they seemed to make no prisoners of the harkonnens and saurdakars. I can't remember the fighting starting right away in the books. I gotta go back and check it.
This is why I love the different Dune adaptations you can watch because each tells the story from another angle. Hopefully, Villeneuve will show the Navigators in Dune Messiah, as they play a major role in the coming story.
Edric is one of the main characters, he better show him and not give him the Thufir Hawat treatment lol. If anything, they should give Edric the same narrative weight and impact as the Baron.
why does everyone keep saying that the navigators use the spice to fold space? the Holtzman engines do the folding, the navigators just chart the course by looking through time to make sure the path the take wont land them in a star or next to a black hole. They're like mentats but with prescience, doing heavy calculations while taking in the trajectory and chaos of space to make sure the heighliner makes it to the other side
I think itll be hard to top the david lynch guild navigator, but i would love to see what villeneuve does. Hes already shown fantastic stylization with his rendition of giedi prime and the harkonnens, so im excited.
Denis said he did Arrival and Blade runner in preparation for dune. We'll, I can elements of blade runner in Dune. However, I can also see elements of the Guild navigators in Arrival: big aliens in a tank of gas within a brutalist looking spaceship??? We already know how Denis will execute the cinematography from this. He's definitely going to rehash what he learnt in Arrival.
I would suggest the exclusion of Paul's sister Alia Atirdes and her poisoning of the Baron was the worst exclusion from the original source material. That along with the dropping of the death of Paul & Chani's son Leto really takes away from Paul's story development. The films are awesome but should be enjoyed as an interpretation of a literary masterpiece
A lot of people are upset about Denis V. excluding Guild Navs and “folding space” in what is essentially the first part of his take on Dune (the first 2 films). First, there’s much more to come in these new adaptations. Second, it’s obviously not in any way critical to either of the films. Weirdo Guild navigators tripping on heavy spice gas while tweaking Holtzman Engines is nifty and all, but who cares in light of what’s happening in the characters and politics of the story? It amounts to nerding out for nerds’ sake. It’s like if you’re watching a heist movie about some dudes gathering to go over the big plan and then the director really wants to show the taxi driver’s experience and how internal combustion engines fire on cylinders! Who cares? It’s a pointless distraction from the emotional story AND the timeline of the story’s events. I know some will say, “But, but, but Herbert WROTE about the Guild and the engines! It MUST be important!” Sure, it’s important to the medium of books that can be much longer and in depth and detailed. Of course, the Guild has a greater role in the universe of the books. Yet, movie adaptations have to streamline and cutting sci-fi space ship and travel mechanics seems a perfectly good detail to cut or at least highly limit.
I'm hopeful that the 3rd installment will include the navigators. They were one of the best parts of the 1984 version. They filled my thoughts with wonder and mystery as a child. While I am impressed by the advanced special effects in the new films, I think the design of worms in the '84 version made more evolutionary sense, and are better executed. Perhaps one of those times where models are better than CGI.
thanks for covering this. I am disappointed in the absence of the Guild Navigators. And their relationship with the Bene Gesserit. Especially given the state of CGI and conceptual development. I wonder if Denis quietly tasked development and didn't see anything that rocked him.
I feel the same way. I know that part of the directors strategy is to leave us to speculate about the technology and keep us in the dark. It helps to build the intrigue and mystery. But, I want to see a navigator! I also really wanted to see some close ups of the highliner too! Folding the space inside of the highliner is a brilliant concept but I wish we could have seen a little more of the intricacies of how it worked. I know… mystery.
Well… As someone who read the books more then once … I agree … A lot is never mentioned in the film adaption, especially in the latest form from director D. Villeneuve . Whilst visually stunning the whole concept of the relationship between the guild and the rest of the empire is totally missing. Maybe the NEXT installment will change that … we’ll see 👍
@@JirocTheFilmmaker agreed but if Messiah ever gets made. You know Denis will have something special for us. The holy war and navigators will be in it.
The guild navigators don't appear until Dune messiah in the books. Paul mentions the guild navigators in book 3, but we aren't given any description as to what they look like until book 4 (Messiah).
Sometimes need to break the rules a bit and not follow the book 100%, the navigator is a huge part of dune and the whole reason for massive spice production, it would be cool to at least show the guild being angered by disruption in spice production and complaining to the emperor to take care of the problem, but it is completely ignored in both fims...
@@artmaknev3738It's not like Villeneuve follows the book particularly closely. He completely changes the character of Chani (not to mention the nature of her relationship with Paul), turns Paul into a simp for Chani, all but reduces Paul's arc to that of a revenge story, and even has Paul kill Baron Harkonnen instead of Alia. In my opinion, _Dune: Part 2_ is objectively the best movie to come out in years, but I'm not entirely convinced I like it as a _Dune_ film. The miniseries is still my favorite adaptation.
@@h3xa817They don’t appear in the book but they are still talked about. It is made clear how controlling the spice means controlling the Guild. And when you control the Guild, you control all interstellar travel. Control all interstellar travel and you can cut off any trade, resources and movement for all who oppose you. Isolate, starve and conquer. Kinda one of the major reasons why Paul and his Jihad were so terribly successful. The near total lack of mentioning the incredibly important Spacing Guild was just dumb. Just a couple of sentences in Part 2 about it would’ve been nice.
I didn't expect a full on scene, but I would have loved to have seen a cameo to just show how travel works as part of the world building. That is something that I will never get to see from DV.
With Paul being a POV character, it makes sense that we don't get face time with a navigator. Oracles can't see each other. Feels like a creative choice, to exaggerate that to the point where the audience also doesn't see what Guild navigators are up to yet.
It has popularized the David Lynch version. As so many now draw upon HIS visuals to discuss the navigators. So I believe it has the effect of honoring some of Lynch's work. It's Denis's way of saying, "Let's not touch or try to supersede this which David did so well".
SENSEI DENIS VILLENEUVE's adaptation of the epic classic book is flawed & questionable. He shun away from the most important scene in the book [according to THE authority himself concerning DUNE matters,SENSEI FRANK 'I created ALL this universe,mind you' HERBERT],the Banquet itself,in the same way david lynch did decades previously. However,Lynch gave us the Space Guild in all its weitd glory,and even not being a carlo rambaldi fan myself, his creations for the 1984 Film were appropriate. I got several issues with the 1st part of Villeneuve's Dune. Left the screening room truly disappointed. On the other hand,the 2nd one is nearly flawless,everything is on spot,from SENSEI ZIMMER's poignant almost minimalistic score to the open end leading us to all out galactic war & DUNE MESSIAH. So I gotta confess I'm VERY eager for DV's third DUNE epic. The spice must flow. Bring It forth
Frank Herbert - left out everything from the original Dune that people grew to like. The weapons, this ideal of Paul being an Harkonnan with father being the Baron - did not like that, then how Paul sister was not born yet -did not like that. Not a good job!
I am hopeful of extended editions once part 3 is finished. Hopefully since imax filming was used will get full 16 9 ratio with much less black bars as well as imax is taller. Might take a decade.
My dad LOVED Frank Herbert's Dune. So when the 1984 version came on one day, he was like "omg you're watching". Some of the key characters from the movies and the books that I thought were interesting (besides Sting being Feyd-Rautha that was badass) were the Spacing Guild, ESPECIALLY when I saw that the navigator's were large misshapen worms with tiny fins. I looked later at what Frank Herbert imagined the Navigators to look like and that's when I saw the humanoid fish looking navigator with long arms and legs, webbed feet and hands, and webbed ears. I TOTALLY thought Denis was going to have them in the movie. Even though they might not have held any significance for the characters in the story. THE FANS WERE DYING TO SEE ONE. YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE DUNE WITHOUT NAVIGATORS? that is a let down. Also real quick why are the harkonnen's all bald they have reddish hair or blonde???? They had hair if not, Lady J would be bald.... AND WHERE IS THE COUNT FENRING! THAT DUDE WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE DUNE CHARACTERS, just because he was a deadly fighter that did not look like a deadly fighter and he was smart
Have you read Dune? The Navigators are mentioned but they aren't characters in the book, so omitting them was perfectly fine - there was already a effing ton of lore to put in the movie. Edric shows up in Messiah, so we'll see them then. Count Fenring was an interesting character but not at all pertinent enough for the story Villeneuve was telling. And the Harkonnen being bald is an artistic choice and it easily can be reasoned that it's due to Geidi Prime's environment (like their black sun) and all the chemicals they pump in their bodies. Jessica never lived on that planet so grew up looking normal. They were redheads only in the Lynch adapation. Feyd in the book is described as having black hair.
In the David Lynch movie right from the bringing they give us the gorgeous Virginia Madsen to tell us what the Spice is and WHY it's so important. Just saying. 🙄
They should make an appearance in the next movie if it stays close to the book, "Dune Messiah". There are some foreshadowing from a couple of characters that will set the stage for Dune, Part 3 (Dune Messiah) which concerns a conspiracy. You can read the book to find out. Part 2 does a good job of leaving open ends for the next movie.
I remember first watching the 1984 movie and thinking wow, the story tells itself. It looked forward and backward at the same time. The technology wasn't the centerpiece of the movie the people were. This was the thinking man's Star Wars.
I hope they make the navigators into god like entities , fish like in a giant Aquarium of spice melange just chillin seeing everything and everyone at all times .
Astounding that remakes have hardly ever be better than the originals, considering they have great source material to work from. The thing that the recent remake of Dune misses is that there was actual dialogue in the fist Dune movie.
I kept thinking i must have just missed the scene and i try to remember during my next rewatch. But i always chuck a handful of edibles down my throat before watching so i never remember to keep an eye out.
In the 1984 version the guild navigators help set the plot in motion by being prescient in seeing that Paul is a serious potential problem. The Bene Gesserit are trying in part to keep Paul safe in hope of controlling him, so at odds with the Navigators. Current Dune and the Bene Gesserit are the ones running everything from the shadows. I think it loses some power going from "the spice must flow" to "the Emperor just decides to end House Atreides from jealousy.
The Guild Navigator scene is the best part of the 1984 movie, it's weird and alien-like, it really makes you feel it's a real alternate reality where all this is really happening. I wish more directors were brave enough to show this kind of stuff, everything is bland these days in order to supposedly appeal to a wider audience.
I just discovered dune a few years back. Im no expert. But i too would like to see the navigators. I find them really fascinating. Even a fully seperate work apart from the films or existing texts.
I also loved Villeneuve's two Dune movies and I think that if these strange characters appear in the third part, it would be something like a juicy, dripping dessert.
I think anything so creature like is not keeping with the director's vision. The worms were something that couldn't be avoided and even then he was very careful about how and when to show them. The navigator runs the risk of looking like a pulp magazine monster,no mater how well it is designed.
There was so much missing. What about Thufir Hawat?, nothing seen of him after the first Harkonnen attack. He had a large part of the end of the story in the first book.
Maybe he just didn’t want the movies to have a goofy element to it or venture too close to starwars, but focus more on the human struggles and stories.
The latest Dune films are well made but they are as much Dune as Bela Lugosi's Dracula is Dracula. Major plot points and characters are sidelined or left out for scenes of needless whimsy. Lynch's film for all it's troubles is more Dune.
Totally agree. It was easier to forgive in Part 1 for me as I knew they needed to reach a wide audience, but I thought Part 2 would really go for it. Not at all, just shell characters with awful dialogue doing things because that’s what the story says they should do. Reminded me of the latter seasons of Game of Thrones in a way. Hated it.
Couldn't disagree more! I did always enjoy the Lynch version and I'm still fond of it but the Lynch version is the one that isn't Dune. Many, many major deviations from the original story in the Lynch version both in plot and themes. In the Lynch version we have the Guild going to see the emperor; we have the Navigators themselves folding space (rather than the Holtzman engine); we have the frickin "wierding modules"; we have Paul is actually the literal Messiah (which is the polar opposite of what Herbert intended); Paul makes it frickin RAIN at the end.... Also Lyches version misses out some great scenes that really are from the book like Feyd's gladiator scene; the stilltent scene with Paul's visions; no Fenrings at all in the Lynch version (Denis at least gave us Margot...
They haven't been seen by anyone in the book at that point. It is even pointed out that nobody knows how they look like, if they are still humans. Them being featured in the other adaptations is the abberation.
There is a good point about not needing to worry about hitting anything. However, it's a matter of scale. We're not talking about crossing a solar system or moving through an asteroid belt. They were crossing the galaxy. A lot Higher more potential to run into something. And if not Zero it's too high a risk as they learned after the destruction of all thinking machines.
I think in 1984 version of Dune; the Guild Navigators were presented for Shock value only. We already know, if you read Herbert's novels, that Spacing Guild is vital to Space travel. Hell, the timeline itself divided between BG and AG, Before Guild and After Guild, so you realize their importance to Galaxtic history.
The Navigators will feature in Villeneuve's take on Dune Messiah - he was wise to hold them back in the first two movies because I believe they will be one of the highlights of Messiah.
I have to admit I was taken aback by the title of your video since I’ve read the books. 😉 However, I have an iron-clad rule to never comment on RUclips until I’ve watched the video. Now that I’ve watched it I can say I was pleasantly surprised and really enjoyed it. You explained right away that the Guild Navigators don’t appear until Dune Messiah and you’re expressing your own thoughts. Well done. 👍 I also wanted to add as someone who is older than dirt and who has been a science fiction and fantasy fan for decades I agree 100% that Dune Part 1 and Part 2 are among the best science fiction movies ever made. In fact, I consider them to be the best adaptations of a science fiction or fantasy novel ever. And now my thoughts on the previous versions. I saw the ‘84 version when it was first released and absolutely hated it although it has bits that I liked. However, I don’t blame the wonderful David Lynch since it’s well-known that he lost control over the film. In fact, he has been very public about distancing himself from the finished film. As to the Sci Fi Channel version, I enjoyed it through Paul and Lady Jessica’s escape but then got bored with it and lost interest. So, I can’t really review it. One of these days I’ll watch the whole thing.
David Lynch's 3rd stage Guild Navigator was the best vision of Herbert's idea. Hope Villeneuve goes in that direction (channel some of the striking weirdness of 1984 Dune).
I enjoyed both of the Sci-Fi Channel’s miniseries as well as the new movies, but each feels like only part of the whole story to me. The miniseries showed the mutual benefit between Paul and the Fremen with them teaching him the ways of the desert while he taught them the Bene Gesserit’s “weirding ways of battle,” while the movies neglected that combat altogether depicting Paul and Jessica just exploiting the Fremen. The movies showed the depths of the Bene Gesserits’ centuries-long manipulations of various planets’ cultures and governments while the miniseries just dabbled with that. The miniseries showed how much humanity’s economy and travel depended not just on the spice itself but also the Spacing Guild’s dominant control over its use while the movie just focused on showing it as a valuable psychoactive drug. The movies showed how common personal shield generators were used on and off the battlefield by upper class citizens and their armies while the miniseries briefly touched on them in a few scenes.
I found his adaptation of the squid aliens in Arrival allready amazing. You can see similarities in style of space crafts between that movie and Dune in my opinion. I wouldn’t be surpried to see similarities between the navigators and the squids, allthough not them being squids, but more the setting.
I waited to see Dune 1 until it was clear that Dune 2 would be forthcoming. So many missed opportunities for wonderful gee whiz, I decided not to bother. Both David Lynch and the miniseries had problems, but at least they had a vision of wonder and the exotic. Villeneuve likes big sets, but. Yawn. (Great job on the ornithopters however!)
There is still a chance to see one. Since now both parts have been big hits, we can safely assume the next part will be coming. Will it be the last part? Only time will tell.
The most fantastic thing about Frank Herbert's Dune series, that we don't encounter true Aliens from another Galaxy. Everyone is a version of human evolution twisted by use of Space Melange. And point fail highlight, Once you take Spice your hooked for Life. Therefore only powerful and rich can afford maintain the habit. When you stop taking Spice, it's agonizing death.
The new Dune movies left out things that would have made them a lot better...the Navigators are only a part, what a visual treat they would have been. They also cut out Paul's son and his subsequent death, Alia as a child...not to mention changing or omitting characters particularly if they're male lol
In 2001: A Space Odyssey it was decided not to reveal the aliens' appearance that abducted Dave Bowman. Kubrick and perhaps Clarke decided any form offered would cheapen the movie. Perhaps it was the same here and Villeneuve knew of this example however, his alien creatures in Arrival was fine.
I watched the 1984 film in the theater. I was already a huge Dune fan. I liked the film but was disappointed by the weirding module (sonic weapon) and the rain at the end. Without those two ridiculous additions I'd have been happier with it. I have since learned that Lynch disavowed it and there was massive studio interference. Looking back some of the acting hasn't stood the test of time.
I think we’re going to,see them in 3. They are key to the final decision of the houses and the culture to accept that Paul might use the atomic. Think we’re going to see more of Margot and count fenring, and a quick resolution of the split with chani. This may hope more than rational but they were all key to my love of the books 50 years ago.
I really like the 1984 movie due to its adaptation and inclusion of the schemes of corrino and the spacing guild from the get go Its a shame feyd and corrino weren't as present (although I understand why )
I consider an unforgivable fault the absence of the scene of the folding of space by the navigator, in the Atreides fleet's journey towards Arrakis, a scene that Lynch's version does show. It seems essential to me for the spectator to become aware of the importance of the spice, which is consumed by the sailor to have such an ability. And the scene at the beginning of the 1984 version in which the brotherhood and the navigator speak harshly to the emperor of the universe himself, giving him orders, appears completely lacking in character in the 2022 version.
I mean, it's pretty self explanatory why they arent in Part 1 or 2. They were only in the background for the first book. There is a much higher chance we see one in Dune 3/Messiah though.
Edric is there from the beginning of Messiah to mask the plot from Pauls prescience but Denis diminished the Spacing Guild's political role in Dune so who knows. I hope he's there as it's an important part of the lore.
I've been a big fan of Lynch's films ever since I went to see it at the cinema as a child accompanied by my mother. I don't like Villeneuve's new version because it doesn't have that atmosphere, the Prophecy, the Messiah and his visions. I conclude that I have read all the books and I am a big fan of Herbert's Dune.
CHAPTERS
0:00 Frank Herbert's Dune
0:40 Guild Navigators from Novel
2:49 1984 Movie Adaptation
3:32 Mini-Series
4:14 2021 & 2024 Adaptation
5:33 Conclusion
6:02 Closing Thoughts
6:35 Subscribe
I love the Dune 1984, there's so much information packed in the first 10 minutes.
The 1984 version's navigator entrance scene is absoulutely outstanding for it's conception and effect to me. Whoever designed the navigator interpretation did a fantastic job and created a mass of mutation and atmosphere that I feel has never been bettered in sci-fi cinema. I also seem to be one of the few who prefer the protective fighting shield interpretation in the training scene in this movie as it fits in perfectly with the whole steampunky/victorian look of the film. Great presentation and info thanks.
I hate to be THAT GUY, but the nevigators do not "fold space", the "Holtzman engines" do that, the navigator is there for his prescience, he is there to foresee any danger in the "folded route", so that the ship ("Heighliner") wouldn't pass through a planet or a sun that could exist in between the two points of fold.
The chance of anything existing on the path is already almost zero. It’s like a falling satellite being in the path of your flight
@@timbosplice8437 Nevertheless, in the Butlerian jihad series, before having navigators and while computers that helped plan safe path were banned, the human fleet would lose 10% of thier ships every time they used the Holtzman engines...
@@timbosplice8437It’s also to make sure the ship actually ends up at the correct destination and not lost out in deep space somewhere in the universe.
@@timbosplice8437 Foldspace isn't our space, its not empty. Its described as existing between the fabric of spacetime.
That's a universe that badly needs star charts
A friend gave me the Dune Trilogy .. I read the first few pages of the first book, put the book down and didn't read further. This same friend took me to see the movie in 1984 .. it was so strange, I recall wondering why it wouldn't end and wishing it would. Then 10 years later, one night late, I caught the 1984 version on some cable channel .. at the point when Paul and Jessica were escaping. Either because I was older then or I cared to pay more attention, something clicked. Since then, I don't know how many times I've seen the various versions of the 1984 film nor how many times I've ready the books but Dune is my most favorite sci-fi. The depth is amazing. So many details. Denis' version is just eye candy with great writing, that while he skips some portions that provide that depth I love, he remains faithful to the idea that is Dune.
I really hope in dune messiah they appear, because in part 1 he showed a human spider, that is way more weird than a navigator
That's right! I forgot about the spider.
Freaky
@@andrewchristie2970 i totally disagree, for me the saga just gets better, my favourite one is the 4th book "god emperor of dune"
@@JirocTheFilmmakerI try my best to forget about it
I really hoped there would be a deeper explanation of the spider in the sequel, whether it was delving a bit more into the Harkonnen's constant experimentation of life forms or the rumor that it was Dr. Yueh's kidnapped wife (although when he was sent to "join" her I imagine that should have dispelled that belief).
Denis did the right thing holding them back. They’ll be the talk of the third movie, as Feyd has been with the second.
So will the bene tleilax
mentats too@@georgesabitpol
Or maybe skip it again
Why would he skip Edric? The face-dancer must be included as well.
@@Diogolindir I suspect we’ll get both.
1984 version is the one that I remember most.
The better one by far.
I hope it will look somewhat like the 1984 grotesque version. It looks physically very impractical and it's huge head hints at it's extraordinary mental capabilities I like the idea that being a navigator is a complete physical curse and prison counterbalanced by it's mental blessings.
Spot on!
There has to be tradeoffs. Otherwise you just end up with a bunch of super heroes.
This keeps it more realistic.
We saw them in “Arrival”. 😂😂
Also in the book its stated if i remember no one as ever seen a guild navigator so it makes no sense to show them
As much as I love the DV movies, I think he shrouded the guild in too much mystery to the point that they are practically non existent. A few more scenes with the representatives in the background to remind us that they exist would have fixed this. Fingers crossed for Dune Prophecy
Yeah, more hints would've been nice!
The robed figures with massive headgear in Part One (the anoinment ceremony on Caladan) may be a small glimpse on these guys. I am sad that's gonna take at least three more years for Messiah, if not more.
@@azmodanpc Yeah they were Guild representatives
@@EdWiley671Thufir says "three guild navigators" but the guy in orange headgear are five. Maybe there's a discrepancy or two of these aren't full fledged navigators.
@@azmodanpc I think he was referring to the number of navigators required to transport the Imperial entourage
What I miss from that version? I do miss the "Spacing Guild" and the especially the "Guild Navigators". I am really a bit confused why he didn't show one of them, even more when you think about the fact that he showed us octopus-like creatures in a kind of gas tank in "Arrival"!? 🤔 Also I don't like the depiction of "Chani". These movies, especially the second one were a cool kind of "event" in the cinema. And I do like some movies from the director, especially "Blade Runner 2049". But I was a little bit disappointed with "Dune Part 2". Many will call me crazy but with all his flaws I still like David Lynch's version a little bit more. 😕
this is the easiest question: he wants to hold them back until Messiah.
One thing I did appreciate about the scene in 84 between the navigator and emporer, is how the navigator was able to see the ultimate plan the emporer was cooking up. Although it was heavy on exposition and explained everything too much, I appreciated how it provided a little context more and explained why Paul was a threat.
Thanks for your video.i like the navigators from all filmed versions but you are right that in the new films they are missing.greetings from Vienna/Austria from me jürgen vicepresident of Vulkan Spirit
Thats weird, i dont remember Navigator being fully shown in the first book. Isn't the start of Messiah were a navigator is completely reveal?
My first exposure to Dune 1984 was around 1986. I was 6 years old. My Mom was taping it for my adult sister from HBO. We came home from somewhere and turned on the tv just in time to catch the Baron pull the heart plug on someone and blood splatter everywhere. My Mom turned it off, but not before I got an eyeful. Same sister later got mad at me for writing sci-fi and horror short stories when I was a teenager. I really hope the guild navigators appear in Dune 3. But I will love it either way, I am sure.
Wow… I didn’t know HBO was around in the ‘80s
@ROVA00 Yep. HBO and ON TV. HBO (Home Box Office) first became available on November 8, 1972, launching as a subscription television service in the United States. It was initially available to subscribers in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, marking the start of its operation as a pay television service offering uncut and commercial-free movies and special events.
One thing is for sure.. The guild navigators at the end of book 1 are part of the reason why pauls threat works and the emperor has to abide. Maybe that's why the fremen immediately had to jump in ships to fight the houses at the end of the 2nd movie. It was kinda weird seeing them immediately jump on the warships. They knew how to fly them? The atreides army was destroyed and they seemed to make no prisoners of the harkonnens and saurdakars.
I can't remember the fighting starting right away in the books. I gotta go back and check it.
The Navigators have NEVER "folded space".
This is why I love the different Dune adaptations you can watch because each tells the story from another angle. Hopefully, Villeneuve will show the Navigators in Dune Messiah, as they play a major role in the coming story.
Edric is one of the main characters, he better show him and not give him the Thufir Hawat treatment lol. If anything, they should give Edric the same narrative weight and impact as the Baron.
why does everyone keep saying that the navigators use the spice to fold space? the Holtzman engines do the folding, the navigators just chart the course by looking through time to make sure the path the take wont land them in a star or next to a black hole. They're like mentats but with prescience, doing heavy calculations while taking in the trajectory and chaos of space to make sure the heighliner makes it to the other side
Because that is how it was portrayed in the 1984 movie; they have seen that but not read the book, this is why they are confused
@@alastairmcleod3635 yeah but even in the 1984 movie the navigators are portrayed as plotting the course sadly it's not made very clear.
Were the guild navigators the inspiration for the heptapods in Arrival? in their gaseous enclosure behind glass?
I think itll be hard to top the david lynch guild navigator, but i would love to see what villeneuve does. Hes already shown fantastic stylization with his rendition of giedi prime and the harkonnens, so im excited.
Yes, me too!
Denis said he did Arrival and Blade runner in preparation for dune.
We'll, I can elements of blade runner in Dune. However, I can also see elements of the Guild navigators in Arrival: big aliens in a tank of gas within a brutalist looking spaceship??? We already know how Denis will execute the cinematography from this. He's definitely going to rehash what he learnt in Arrival.
Loved Arrival!!!
That's the way they were described in the "stories of your life" novela.
I would suggest the exclusion of Paul's sister Alia Atirdes and her poisoning of the Baron was the worst exclusion from the original source material. That along with the dropping of the death of Paul & Chani's son Leto really takes away from Paul's story development. The films are awesome but should be enjoyed as an interpretation of a literary masterpiece
Edric will make a triumphant entrance in Messiah!!
A lot of people are upset about Denis V. excluding Guild Navs and “folding space” in what is essentially the first part of his take on Dune (the first 2 films).
First, there’s much more to come in these new adaptations. Second, it’s obviously not in any way critical to either of the films.
Weirdo Guild navigators tripping on heavy spice gas while tweaking Holtzman Engines is nifty and all, but who cares in light of what’s happening in the characters and politics of the story? It amounts to nerding out for nerds’ sake.
It’s like if you’re watching a heist movie about some dudes gathering to go over the big plan and then the director really wants to show the taxi driver’s experience and how internal combustion engines fire on cylinders! Who cares? It’s a pointless distraction from the emotional story AND the timeline of the story’s events.
I know some will say, “But, but, but Herbert WROTE about the Guild and the engines! It MUST be important!” Sure, it’s important to the medium of books that can be much longer and in depth and detailed. Of course, the Guild has a greater role in the universe of the books. Yet, movie adaptations have to streamline and cutting sci-fi space ship and travel mechanics seems a perfectly good detail to cut or at least highly limit.
I was actually looking forward to seeing Villeneuve's take on the navigators. I hope they do have an appearance in his next Dune movie
DV was too lazy to depict the guild navigators and thus bypassed the entire premise.
Space ship looks like a Sand Worm.
Interesting
just look at your goldfish in your aquarium and you will find guild navigator swimming in spice
Don’t they first appear in book 2?
I'm hopeful that the 3rd installment will include the navigators. They were one of the best parts of the 1984 version. They filled my thoughts with wonder and mystery as a child. While I am impressed by the advanced special effects in the new films, I think the design of worms in the '84 version made more evolutionary sense, and are better executed. Perhaps one of those times where models are better than CGI.
thanks for covering this. I am disappointed in the absence of the Guild Navigators. And their relationship with the Bene Gesserit. Especially given the state of CGI and conceptual development. I wonder if Denis quietly tasked development and didn't see anything that rocked him.
I feel the same way. I know that part of the directors strategy is to leave us to speculate about the technology and keep us in the dark. It helps to build the intrigue and mystery. But, I want to see a navigator! I also really wanted to see some close ups of the highliner too! Folding the space inside of the highliner is a brilliant concept but I wish we could have seen a little more of the intricacies of how it worked. I know… mystery.
Well…
As someone who read the books more then once … I agree …
A lot is never mentioned in the film adaption, especially in the latest form from director D. Villeneuve .
Whilst visually stunning the whole concept of the relationship between the guild and the rest of the empire is totally missing.
Maybe the NEXT installment will change that … we’ll see 👍
They’re absent because they don’t appear until DUNE messiah.
Yeah, but that scene blew my 14 year old mind when I saw it on VHS for the first time! 😁
@@JirocTheFilmmaker agreed but if Messiah ever gets made. You know Denis will have something special for us. The holy war and navigators will be in it.
@@JirocTheFilmmakersounds like a 'you' problem.
@@borrago that was a needlessly trolling reply.
@@Conpauleoninathe holy war that was mostly over at that point?
It is a huge problem in Villeneuve's version... The Guild is fundamental for Dune and he just ignored them... For a 2:40 movie, it is hard to accept
The first book that the movies are based on does too. But hopefully we'll see them in the 3rd movie 🤞
The guild navigators don't appear until Dune messiah in the books. Paul mentions the guild navigators in book 3, but we aren't given any description as to what they look like until book 4 (Messiah).
Sometimes need to break the rules a bit and not follow the book 100%, the navigator is a huge part of dune and the whole reason for massive spice production, it would be cool to at least show the guild being angered by disruption in spice production and complaining to the emperor to take care of the problem, but it is completely ignored in both fims...
@@artmaknev3738It's not like Villeneuve follows the book particularly closely. He completely changes the character of Chani (not to mention the nature of her relationship with Paul), turns Paul into a simp for Chani, all but reduces Paul's arc to that of a revenge story, and even has Paul kill Baron Harkonnen instead of Alia. In my opinion, _Dune: Part 2_ is objectively the best movie to come out in years, but I'm not entirely convinced I like it as a _Dune_ film. The miniseries is still my favorite adaptation.
@@h3xa817They don’t appear in the book but they are still talked about.
It is made clear how controlling the spice means controlling the Guild. And when you control the Guild, you control all interstellar travel. Control all interstellar travel and you can cut off any trade, resources and movement for all who oppose you. Isolate, starve and conquer. Kinda one of the major reasons why Paul and his Jihad were so terribly successful.
The near total lack of mentioning the incredibly important Spacing Guild was just dumb. Just a couple of sentences in Part 2 about it would’ve been nice.
Dune 2 could’ve been two 3 hour movies
The 84 version is the best.
I didn't expect a full on scene, but I would have loved to have seen a cameo to just show how travel works as part of the world building. That is something that I will never get to see from DV.
With Paul being a POV character, it makes sense that we don't get face time with a navigator. Oracles can't see each other. Feels like a creative choice, to exaggerate that to the point where the audience also doesn't see what Guild navigators are up to yet.
Kept TOO mysterious by Villeneuve. Simply left out. Folding space is so important. We needed to see more of it.
Critical high plot scene missing.
Oh and what happened to Thurfir Hawat in the 2nd movie?
It has popularized the David Lynch version. As so many now draw upon HIS visuals to discuss the navigators. So I believe it has the effect of honoring some of Lynch's work. It's Denis's way of saying, "Let's not touch or try to supersede this which David did so well".
SENSEI DENIS VILLENEUVE's adaptation of the epic classic book is flawed & questionable.
He shun away from the most important scene in the book [according to THE authority himself concerning DUNE matters,SENSEI FRANK 'I created ALL this universe,mind you' HERBERT],the Banquet itself,in the same way david lynch did decades previously.
However,Lynch gave us the Space Guild in all its weitd glory,and even not being a carlo rambaldi fan myself, his creations for the 1984 Film were appropriate.
I got several issues with the 1st part of Villeneuve's Dune.
Left the screening room truly disappointed.
On the other hand,the 2nd one is nearly flawless,everything is on spot,from SENSEI ZIMMER's poignant almost minimalistic score to the open end leading us to all out galactic war & DUNE MESSIAH.
So I gotta confess I'm VERY eager for DV's third DUNE epic.
The spice must flow.
Bring It forth
Frank Herbert - left out everything from the original Dune that people grew to like. The weapons, this ideal of Paul being an Harkonnan with father being the Baron - did not like that, then how Paul sister was not born yet -did not like that. Not a good job!
Paul is the Baron's grandson that is from the original story in the book
I am hopeful of extended editions once part 3 is finished. Hopefully since imax filming was used will get full 16 9 ratio with much less black bars as well as imax is taller. Might take a decade.
You did see them in part one (they had helmets on) but Denis won’t show them in his version. The 84 version was too weird!
Those were Guild Representatives, not Navigators 😉
I thought you had 42k subscribers not 42! I mean really good video keep it up
Maybe one day! 😁
My dad LOVED Frank Herbert's Dune. So when the 1984 version came on one day, he was like "omg you're watching". Some of the key characters from the movies and the books that I thought were interesting (besides Sting being Feyd-Rautha that was badass) were the Spacing Guild, ESPECIALLY when I saw that the navigator's were large misshapen worms with tiny fins. I looked later at what Frank Herbert imagined the Navigators to look like and that's when I saw the humanoid fish looking navigator with long arms and legs, webbed feet and hands, and webbed ears. I TOTALLY thought Denis was going to have them in the movie. Even though they might not have held any significance for the characters in the story. THE FANS WERE DYING TO SEE ONE. YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE DUNE WITHOUT NAVIGATORS? that is a let down. Also real quick why are the harkonnen's all bald they have reddish hair or blonde???? They had hair if not, Lady J would be bald.... AND WHERE IS THE COUNT FENRING! THAT DUDE WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE DUNE CHARACTERS, just because he was a deadly fighter that did not look like a deadly fighter and he was smart
Lady Margot fenring was his wife right?? Now I remember
Have you read Dune? The Navigators are mentioned but they aren't characters in the book, so omitting them was perfectly fine - there was already a effing ton of lore to put in the movie. Edric shows up in Messiah, so we'll see them then. Count Fenring was an interesting character but not at all pertinent enough for the story Villeneuve was telling. And the Harkonnen being bald is an artistic choice and it easily can be reasoned that it's due to Geidi Prime's environment (like their black sun) and all the chemicals they pump in their bodies. Jessica never lived on that planet so grew up looking normal. They were redheads only in the Lynch adapation. Feyd in the book is described as having black hair.
In the David Lynch movie right from the bringing they give us the gorgeous Virginia Madsen to tell us what the Spice is and WHY it's so important.
Just saying. 🙄
I was soooo in L❤VE!
Some people have no patience... The first scene with a navigator in will be in Dune Messiah... Which is exaclty how it is in the books...
The navigators don't fold space.
They should make an appearance in the next movie if it stays close to the book, "Dune Messiah". There are some foreshadowing from a couple of characters that will set the stage for Dune, Part 3 (Dune Messiah) which concerns a conspiracy. You can read the book to find out. Part 2 does a good job of leaving open ends for the next movie.
I remember first watching the 1984 movie and thinking wow, the story tells itself. It looked forward and backward at the same time. The technology wasn't the centerpiece of the movie the people were. This was the thinking man's Star Wars.
I hope they make the navigators into god like entities , fish like in a giant Aquarium of spice melange just chillin seeing everything and everyone at all times .
I hope it’ll be Idris Alba in a sauna.
Astounding that remakes have hardly ever be better than the originals, considering they have great source material to work from.
The thing that the recent remake of Dune misses is that there was actual dialogue in the fist Dune movie.
I kept thinking i must have just missed the scene and i try to remember during my next rewatch. But i always chuck a handful of edibles down my throat before watching so i never remember to keep an eye out.
In the 1984 version the guild navigators help set the plot in motion by being prescient in seeing that Paul is a serious potential problem. The Bene Gesserit are trying in part to keep Paul safe in hope of controlling him, so at odds with the Navigators. Current Dune and the Bene Gesserit are the ones running everything from the shadows. I think it loses some power going from "the spice must flow" to "the Emperor just decides to end House Atreides from jealousy.
The Guild Navigator scene is the best part of the 1984 movie, it's weird and alien-like, it really makes you feel it's a real alternate reality where all this is really happening. I wish more directors were brave enough to show this kind of stuff, everything is bland these days in order to supposedly appeal to a wider audience.
I just discovered dune a few years back. Im no expert. But i too would like to see the navigators. I find them really fascinating. Even a fully seperate work apart from the films or existing texts.
I also loved Villeneuve's two Dune movies and I think that if these strange characters appear in the third part, it would be something like a juicy, dripping dessert.
I think anything so creature like is not keeping with the director's vision. The worms were something that couldn't be avoided and even then he was very careful about how and when to show them. The navigator runs the risk of looking like a pulp magazine monster,no mater how well it is designed.
Great analysis!. Thanks for making it.
There was so much missing. What about Thufir Hawat?, nothing seen of him after the first Harkonnen attack. He had a large part of the end of the story in the first book.
Exactly. I commented that as well.
What I miss the most is TOTO's soundtrack.
Maybe he just didn’t want the movies to have a goofy element to it or venture too close to starwars, but focus more on the human struggles and stories.
The latest Dune films are well made but they are as much Dune as Bela Lugosi's Dracula is Dracula. Major plot points and characters are sidelined or left out for scenes of needless whimsy. Lynch's film for all it's troubles is more Dune.
Totally agree.
It was easier to forgive in Part 1 for me as I knew they needed to reach a wide audience, but I thought Part 2 would really go for it. Not at all, just shell characters with awful dialogue doing things because that’s what the story says they should do. Reminded me of the latter seasons of Game of Thrones in a way. Hated it.
Couldn't disagree more! I did always enjoy the Lynch version and I'm still fond of it but the Lynch version is the one that isn't Dune. Many, many major deviations from the original story in the Lynch version both in plot and themes. In the Lynch version we have the Guild going to see the emperor; we have the Navigators themselves folding space (rather than the Holtzman engine); we have the frickin "wierding modules"; we have Paul is actually the literal Messiah (which is the polar opposite of what Herbert intended); Paul makes it frickin RAIN at the end.... Also Lyches version misses out some great scenes that really are from the book like Feyd's gladiator scene; the stilltent scene with Paul's visions; no Fenrings at all in the Lynch version (Denis at least gave us Margot...
They haven't been seen by anyone in the book at that point. It is even pointed out that nobody knows how they look like, if they are still humans. Them being featured in the other adaptations is the abberation.
There is a good point about not needing to worry about hitting anything. However, it's a matter of scale. We're not talking about crossing a solar system or moving through an asteroid belt. They were crossing the galaxy. A lot Higher more potential to run into something. And if not Zero it's too high a risk as they learned after the destruction of all thinking machines.
Considering Messiah has a lot to do with negotiations and machinations with the Guild, it seems there's still scope for something neat.
I gotta say, this was the thing i was most looking forward to seeing represented in the new films, much as I love them.
I think in 1984 version of Dune; the Guild Navigators were presented for Shock value only. We already know, if you read Herbert's novels, that Spacing Guild is vital to Space travel. Hell, the timeline itself divided between BG and AG, Before Guild and After Guild, so you realize their importance to Galaxtic history.
The navigator Edric is an active conspirator against Paul in Dune Messiah. We will almost certainly see him in that movie.
The Navigators will feature in Villeneuve's take on Dune Messiah - he was wise to hold them back in the first two movies because I believe they will be one of the highlights of Messiah.
I have to admit I was taken aback by the title of your video since I’ve read the books. 😉 However, I have an iron-clad rule to never comment on RUclips until I’ve watched the video. Now that I’ve watched it I can say I was pleasantly surprised and really enjoyed it. You explained right away that the Guild Navigators don’t appear until Dune Messiah and you’re expressing your own thoughts. Well done. 👍
I also wanted to add as someone who is older than dirt and who has been a science fiction and fantasy fan for decades I agree 100% that Dune Part 1 and Part 2 are among the best science fiction movies ever made. In fact, I consider them to be the best adaptations of a science fiction or fantasy novel ever.
And now my thoughts on the previous versions. I saw the ‘84 version when it was first released and absolutely hated it although it has bits that I liked. However, I don’t blame the wonderful David Lynch since it’s well-known that he lost control over the film. In fact, he has been very public about distancing himself from the finished film.
As to the Sci Fi Channel version, I enjoyed it through Paul and Lady Jessica’s escape but then got bored with it and lost interest. So, I can’t really review it. One of these days I’ll watch the whole thing.
David Lynch's 3rd stage Guild Navigator was the best vision of Herbert's idea. Hope Villeneuve goes in that direction (channel some of the striking weirdness of 1984 Dune).
I liked David Lynch's version of the Guild navigators.
The SyFy version is probably more accurate based on the book description.
I enjoyed both of the Sci-Fi Channel’s miniseries as well as the new movies, but each feels like only part of the whole story to me. The miniseries showed the mutual benefit between Paul and the Fremen with them teaching him the ways of the desert while he taught them the Bene Gesserit’s “weirding ways of battle,” while the movies neglected that combat altogether depicting Paul and Jessica just exploiting the Fremen. The movies showed the depths of the Bene Gesserits’ centuries-long manipulations of various planets’ cultures and governments while the miniseries just dabbled with that. The miniseries showed how much humanity’s economy and travel depended not just on the spice itself but also the Spacing Guild’s dominant control over its use while the movie just focused on showing it as a valuable psychoactive drug. The movies showed how common personal shield generators were used on and off the battlefield by upper class citizens and their armies while the miniseries briefly touched on them in a few scenes.
No one cares what you wanted.
They will be in Messiah.
Have a modicum of patoence.
I found his adaptation of the squid aliens in Arrival allready amazing. You can see similarities in style of space crafts between that movie and Dune in my opinion. I wouldn’t be surpried to see similarities between the navigators and the squids, allthough not them being squids, but more the setting.
I waited to see Dune 1 until it was clear that Dune 2 would be forthcoming. So many missed opportunities for wonderful gee whiz, I decided not to bother. Both David Lynch and the miniseries had problems, but at least they had a vision of wonder and the exotic. Villeneuve likes big sets, but. Yawn. (Great job on the ornithopters however!)
There is still a chance to see one. Since now both parts have been big hits, we can safely assume the next part will be coming. Will it be the last part? Only time will tell.
The most fantastic thing about Frank Herbert's Dune series, that we don't encounter true Aliens from another Galaxy. Everyone is a version of human evolution twisted by use of Space Melange. And point fail highlight, Once you take Spice your hooked for Life. Therefore only powerful and rich can afford maintain the habit. When you stop taking Spice, it's agonizing death.
The new Dune movies left out things that would have made them a lot better...the Navigators are only a part, what a visual treat they would have been. They also cut out Paul's son and his subsequent death, Alia as a child...not to mention changing or omitting characters particularly if they're male lol
In 2001: A Space Odyssey it was decided not to reveal the aliens' appearance that abducted Dave Bowman. Kubrick and perhaps Clarke decided any form offered would cheapen the movie. Perhaps it was the same here and Villeneuve knew of this example however, his alien creatures in Arrival was fine.
I watched the 1984 film in the theater. I was already a huge Dune fan. I liked the film but was disappointed by the weirding module (sonic weapon) and the rain at the end. Without those two ridiculous additions I'd have been happier with it. I have since learned that Lynch disavowed it and there was massive studio interference. Looking back some of the acting hasn't stood the test of time.
I read Dune series in College in the 60s
I think we’re going to,see them in 3. They are key to the final decision of the houses and the culture to accept that Paul might use the atomic. Think we’re going to see more of Margot and count fenring, and a quick resolution of the split with chani. This may hope more than rational but they were all key to my love of the books 50 years ago.
I believe they will include the Gil Navigator in part 3😊 hopefully
When I saw the 2021 part one i was remedially disappointed at the lack of their presence
Wait for Dune Messiah.
I really like the 1984 movie due to its adaptation and inclusion of the schemes of corrino and the spacing guild from the get go
Its a shame feyd and corrino weren't as present (although I understand why )
I consider an unforgivable fault the absence of the scene of the folding of space by the navigator, in the Atreides fleet's journey towards Arrakis, a scene that Lynch's version does show. It seems essential to me for the spectator to become aware of the importance of the spice, which is consumed by the sailor to have such an ability. And the scene at the beginning of the 1984 version in which the brotherhood and the navigator speak harshly to the emperor of the universe himself, giving him orders, appears completely lacking in character in the 2022 version.
None of that is in the book
Outstanding video!
I mean, it's pretty self explanatory why they arent in Part 1 or 2. They were only in the background for the first book. There is a much higher chance we see one in Dune 3/Messiah though.
I have few complaints about the new Dune, but this is, in my opinion, a weakness. I would have liked to see more about the Navigators too.
Is not the spice that bends space.... is the Holtzmann effect. Spice is use to enhance their calculation skills to avoid obstacles.
Edric is there from the beginning of Messiah to mask the plot from Pauls prescience but Denis diminished the Spacing Guild's political role in Dune so who knows. I hope he's there as it's an important part of the lore.
I've been a big fan of Lynch's films ever since I went to see it at the cinema as a child accompanied by my mother. I don't like Villeneuve's new version because it doesn't have that atmosphere, the Prophecy, the Messiah and his visions. I conclude that I have read all the books and I am a big fan of Herbert's Dune.