This video is actually insane. The way it shows that this idea of instilling a "fake feeling" in players' minds can be used to represent songs in unique and interesting ways is mind-blowing. Love it!
I think "fake feeling" can also be used to explain why the majority of players absolutely despise dense maps/low AR and prefer your typical-pushing aside the fact that it is typical-Object to AR proportionate kind of map. Simply put, seeing more objects consequently results in a tension that subconsciously "pulls" you to the last object you saw, thus disregarding other objects that might have appeared earlier. This happens a lot when players encounter dense maps with odd stacking/flow/pattern; it seems that their cursors are being pulled by a lot of tension from the various immediate objects that just pop up from the screen. Really good topic and experience. I personally think players can probably be more self-aware of this and learn to play around it.
7:42 I don't think there's enough reason to propose, that the tension is a complex response to an association between negative feedback and negative events in-game, like missing(otherwise everyone'd be using that silly rrtyui skin with the ridiculous hit0's :D). It's more likely just a byproduct or an effect of pattern recognition and the conflict arousing interaction between different learned patterns. If one were to draw parallels to machine learning, it would be appropriate to describe the process as a transformer, rather, than a process of selection based on negative feedback. The tension emerges, because our capacity to distinguish between the timing of the circles greatly diminishes at higher densities and lower approach rates, the smaller the time-frame, the less there is to distinguish, the more there is to compensate for. Throw distance and acceleration into this equation and you've got even more to calculate in terms of differences. You "feel" the pull, because there is a conflict, between whether you should stay with the slider-ball, or jump to the hit-circle, this is your mind essentially fighting for three different desires in the patterns you recognise, first is to hold the sliderball, second is to complete the slider, third is to make it to the hit-circle after | before all that, and it's very difficult to create an estimated route based on the difference between the sliderball vector and the scalar component of the approach circle coupled with distance, hence conflict. Almost like recognising multiple patters, creating overlap in pattern recognition and therefore tension, this effect is most clear, when observing how new players approach the game, and partly explains why they prefer linear maps and stray away from collections of hit-objects and streams. If you have trained to notice those tiny differences, like a lot of EZ/tech players have, you'll have an easier time distinguishing between the differences in approach and forming a route. The problem, that arises is, that humans in general do have a limit to how many objects they may process simultaneously. We as humans evolved abstraction via categorisation for this exact reason, *see the Weber-Fechner law and Subitizing*. For example take a 6 note burst, a new player may see it as a set of individual objects following one after the other procedurally, due to a lack of categorisation. Now a more experienced player may process the burst as a distinct object due to the abstraction they developed via pattern recognition, there is less tension, because to them it's just a single object. The way I see negative feedback playing a role in osu! is much less guttural, and more macro oriented, a guide, rather than an instinct. Kind of like strategy vs tactics in chess. This is just my own hypothesis based on my own observations and knowledge, though.
Huh, maybe it's not so much the 'risk' that causes the tension, but the focus and effort needed to succeed then? You're definitely right about multiple desires causing tension via conflict, that's an absolutely huge part of all of this. Pattern recognition making this decision-making easier and thus less tense for experienced players is really, really interesting... I think hans in the comments here was touching on that subject too. The implication that a higher AR can reduce the uncertainty of objects and patterns and make them less tense is also intriguing... lots of interesting stuff to think about here.
I personally think that the "tension" a player may feel when being pulled by different outcomes is a result of both points mentioned in the video itself and this comment: punishment in-game and conflict of desire. As a player progresses through the game, they become less conscious but more subconscious, an intrinsic inclination you could say, of consequences in failing to accomplish certain tasks e.g., following slidertricks, holding sliderends, timing, etc. As you've stated, the tension is most likely caused by a conflict of desire-which I find to be completely logical-but the subconscious acknowledgment of in-game consequences (negative events) are exactly the driving force for these multiple desires, consequently bringing about conflict, and therefore causing tension. Well, it's still another thing to think about
I can’t believe that you’ve been on this anti score v2 crusade ever since I peaced out lmfao I knew exactly what you were doing and where you were going by minute 3
Nah there was a 4 year pause before I piped up again, I haven't logged in since 2016 and still haven't. Just recently piped up again since the game looks like it's improving rapidly, so it would suck for this problem to stick around and sour their opportunity.
awesome video, osu! having abusable slider leniency opens up mapping to so many possibilities for song contrast and map identity, I'd hate to see it go
Nothing goes. You will still have the same exact hitwindow for hitting a slider. The only difference is that you get rewarded for being able to do it more accurately.
@@lCharles445l I tried everything.. Tbh didn't notice any difference, but my brain tells me that something should be changed, especially after the fifth one lever, because it takes like 1 second to change its position while everything other immediately (probably a bug but yeah). Anyway, can you please tell me, is this room was made for showing placebo impact? :)
@@xelite6479 It's intentional, you expect the fifth lever to work instantly like the others, but it doesn't, so for a brief moment it feels like your click was empty and didn't do anything... it's very unsatisfying. A lot of people internalize that as a "gross" feeling, it happens a lot with games that have bad or delayed controls.
The conclusion towards the end about slider accuracy is interesting in that it's a completely silly and phoned-in argument after such an informative video. I genuinely do not believe that you have played the game with slider accuracy on if the conclusion is that "having to acc the other half of objects in the game ruins the game". A slider head is _already_ extremely close to a circle in impact. You still have to hit the head just as accurately (aim-wise) as a circle in order to maintain combo. The usage of slider bodies to reduce momentum (alongside literally any other use) is not affected _in the slightest_ by having to accurately click the head (rhythm-wise). If the straw that breaks the camel's back for you is that, not only do you have to aim the slider head but you also have to.. click it on time, then the only conclusion that I can make is that you are falsely projecting a personal dislike of having to acc sliders onto the concept of fake feeling.
I think the crux of it here would be the difference between people's perception of playing a slider head and a circle, and whether the impact is very different for them or not. It's absolutely the case for me, I remember when I played osu!stream for the first time and getting weirded out by the sliders in that game (they have slideracc). It really felt like something was horribly wrong. I'll never forget it. Does that make it a personal thing? Technically yes: I tried slideracc out and figured out why I didn't like it. In this video I'm explaining what I didn't like about it, and that in itself won't be relatable for everyone. Also about the sliderbodies, they're absolutely not affected by slideracc (thank god), they're just an important concept that needed discussing (and for my own purposes, a decent segue into ranting about slideracc, lmao). Hopefully if people disagree with me about slideracc, they'll at least still get something out of this sliderbody discussion.
It's almost as if hitobjects have their own gravity field...
Exactly!!
First time I ever felt that was in Natteke's map "The Hell Song"
At the time I called them "gravity sliders"
i thought this man died holy shit
am i in the after life?
This video is actually insane. The way it shows that this idea of instilling a "fake feeling" in players' minds can be used to represent songs in unique and interesting ways is mind-blowing. Love it!
I think "fake feeling" can also be used to explain why the majority of players absolutely despise dense maps/low AR and prefer your typical-pushing aside the fact that it is typical-Object to AR proportionate kind of map. Simply put, seeing more objects consequently results in a tension that subconsciously "pulls" you to the last object you saw, thus disregarding other objects that might have appeared earlier. This happens a lot when players encounter dense maps with odd stacking/flow/pattern; it seems that their cursors are being pulled by a lot of tension from the various immediate objects that just pop up from the screen.
Really good topic and experience. I personally think players can probably be more self-aware of this and learn to play around it.
so the brain sends a bunch of mixed signals when there's many objects on screen, causing tension... I think you're onto something here
@@lCharles445l i'm a pretty good low ar reading player but even I tend to hit my keys harder when i play low ar/high note density, i notice
7:42 I don't think there's enough reason to propose, that the tension is a complex response to an association between negative feedback and negative events in-game, like missing(otherwise everyone'd be using that silly rrtyui skin with the ridiculous hit0's :D). It's more likely just a byproduct or an effect of pattern recognition and the conflict arousing interaction between different learned patterns. If one were to draw parallels to machine learning, it would be appropriate to describe the process as a transformer, rather, than a process of selection based on negative feedback.
The tension emerges, because our capacity to distinguish between the timing of the circles greatly diminishes at higher densities and lower approach rates, the smaller the time-frame, the less there is to distinguish, the more there is to compensate for. Throw distance and acceleration into this equation and you've got even more to calculate in terms of differences. You "feel" the pull, because there is a conflict, between whether you should stay with the slider-ball, or jump to the hit-circle, this is your mind essentially fighting for three different desires in the patterns you recognise, first is to hold the sliderball, second is to complete the slider, third is to make it to the hit-circle after | before all that, and it's very difficult to create an estimated route based on the difference between the sliderball vector and the scalar component of the approach circle coupled with distance, hence conflict. Almost like recognising multiple patters, creating overlap in pattern recognition and therefore tension, this effect is most clear, when observing how new players approach the game, and partly explains why they prefer linear maps and stray away from collections of hit-objects and streams.
If you have trained to notice those tiny differences, like a lot of EZ/tech players have, you'll have an easier time distinguishing between the differences in approach and forming a route. The problem, that arises is, that humans in general do have a limit to how many objects they may process simultaneously. We as humans evolved abstraction via categorisation for this exact reason, *see the Weber-Fechner law and Subitizing*. For example take a 6 note burst, a new player may see it as a set of individual objects following one after the other procedurally, due to a lack of categorisation. Now a more experienced player may process the burst as a distinct object due to the abstraction they developed via pattern recognition, there is less tension, because to them it's just a single object. The way I see negative feedback playing a role in osu! is much less guttural, and more macro oriented, a guide, rather than an instinct. Kind of like strategy vs tactics in chess.
This is just my own hypothesis based on my own observations and knowledge, though.
Huh, maybe it's not so much the 'risk' that causes the tension, but the focus and effort needed to succeed then? You're definitely right about multiple desires causing tension via conflict, that's an absolutely huge part of all of this.
Pattern recognition making this decision-making easier and thus less tense for experienced players is really, really interesting... I think hans in the comments here was touching on that subject too.
The implication that a higher AR can reduce the uncertainty of objects and patterns and make them less tense is also intriguing... lots of interesting stuff to think about here.
I personally think that the "tension" a player may feel when being pulled by different outcomes is a result of both points mentioned in the video itself and this comment: punishment in-game and conflict of desire. As a player progresses through the game, they become less conscious but more subconscious, an intrinsic inclination you could say, of consequences in failing to accomplish certain tasks e.g., following slidertricks, holding sliderends, timing, etc. As you've stated, the tension is most likely caused by a conflict of desire-which I find to be completely logical-but the subconscious acknowledgment of in-game consequences (negative events) are exactly the driving force for these multiple desires, consequently bringing about conflict, and therefore causing tension.
Well, it's still another thing to think about
amazing vid, thank you for the experience!
Charles making big brain videos even after he quit
so many people don't know about this kinda stuff its unbelieveable
I can’t believe that you’ve been on this anti score v2 crusade ever since I peaced out lmfao I knew exactly what you were doing and where you were going by minute 3
Nah there was a 4 year pause before I piped up again, I haven't logged in since 2016 and still haven't.
Just recently piped up again since the game looks like it's improving rapidly, so it would suck for this problem to stick around and sour their opportunity.
Wow Charles! Love the video! Keep up the good content! Love, Vincent.
Awesome video.
Really interesting!
so this is why tech map are harder to play(for me at least)... thanks for the video !
this is an experience
super cool vid
Charles I can’t tell if you’re a madman or a mad genius
this is amazing
The most fakefeeling i got was the incessant need to check the youtube video playing again
12:11 how did you manage to make the cursor trail that long? i don't think that's the same effect you get if you add a cursor middle into your skin.
CHARLES UPLOADING?!
as if ur relationships with circles and sliders were not already like this but ok
wondering where Boy_313 went tbh
fake circles n slideres man..
dragons the video
I wish I had an application of this I could run instead of the website, while it is more convenient it's not very smooth.
yes
awesome video,
osu! having abusable slider leniency opens up mapping to so many possibilities for song contrast and map identity, I'd hate to see it go
Nothing goes. You will still have the same exact hitwindow for hitting a slider. The only difference is that you get rewarded for being able to do it more accurately.
I accidently cursor dance the whole thing
wow
lol ".moe"
Do the levers on in the last room actually do anything or are they placebo levers?
Click on all of them, see if you notice anything
@@lCharles445l I love it! It's so subtle that I brushed it off many times while experimenting, and even while looking for it
@@lCharles445l I tried everything.. Tbh didn't notice any difference, but my brain tells me that something should be changed, especially after the fifth one lever, because it takes like 1 second to change its position while everything other immediately (probably a bug but yeah).
Anyway, can you please tell me, is this room was made for showing placebo impact? :)
@@xelite6479 It's intentional, you expect the fifth lever to work instantly like the others, but it doesn't, so for a brief moment it feels like your click was empty and didn't do anything... it's very unsatisfying. A lot of people internalize that as a "gross" feeling, it happens a lot with games that have bad or delayed controls.
11:18 what kind of spaghetti noodle skin is that 🤮
osu!
how
9th
The conclusion towards the end about slider accuracy is interesting in that it's a completely silly and phoned-in argument after such an informative video. I genuinely do not believe that you have played the game with slider accuracy on if the conclusion is that "having to acc the other half of objects in the game ruins the game". A slider head is _already_ extremely close to a circle in impact. You still have to hit the head just as accurately (aim-wise) as a circle in order to maintain combo. The usage of slider bodies to reduce momentum (alongside literally any other use) is not affected _in the slightest_ by having to accurately click the head (rhythm-wise).
If the straw that breaks the camel's back for you is that, not only do you have to aim the slider head but you also have to.. click it on time, then the only conclusion that I can make is that you are falsely projecting a personal dislike of having to acc sliders onto the concept of fake feeling.
I think the crux of it here would be the difference between people's perception of playing a slider head and a circle, and whether the impact is very different for them or not.
It's absolutely the case for me, I remember when I played osu!stream for the first time and getting weirded out by the sliders in that game (they have slideracc). It really felt like something was horribly wrong. I'll never forget it.
Does that make it a personal thing? Technically yes: I tried slideracc out and figured out why I didn't like it. In this video I'm explaining what I didn't like about it, and that in itself won't be relatable for everyone.
Also about the sliderbodies, they're absolutely not affected by slideracc (thank god), they're just an important concept that needed discussing (and for my own purposes, a decent segue into ranting about slideracc, lmao).
Hopefully if people disagree with me about slideracc, they'll at least still get something out of this sliderbody discussion.