I do like the alternative outcome that you presented. While I don't necessarily agree with everything that you identified as a flaw, I think this does a decent job of not only giving Asgore and Flowey an important role, like you said, but also addresses the questionable pacing of the ending. I believe the UTY dev team had a desire to wrap things up as quick as they could, for fear of dragging out the ending. I can understand why, considering Ceroba is a difficult four phase fight, they would want the game to end quickly so that players don't get too exhausted. However I think that created some pacing issues both during and after the fight. I believe that Ceroba's motivation isn't given enough attention to make sense the way it is presented to us in the fight. Most notably, they try to consolidate Kanako discovering the serum, and Ceroba choosing to inject her daughter with it all into one cutscene. This leaves no room for the audience to make certain assumptions that would make this decision make sense. We don't get see Ceroba deliberate over whether this is the right thing to do. We don't have the benefit of the doubt that she tested the serum beforehand, which would make her surprise over the outcome more believable. Too much was placed into one cutscene. I can't think of a great solution to this. If they split up that scene into two: Kanako discovers the serum and Ceroba tells her not to use it, or that it's dangerous. Then we have another cutscene afterwards where the serum is used, giving the audience the chance to assume that time has passed. However, this would necessitate adding another phase to the fight, which is what the team was likely trying to avoid in the first place. The second problem is the one that you were more concerned with in this video, that Clover's decision to sacrifice themselves is sudden and not given thorough "justification" as an option. I think if we were just given more context into why Clover wanted to do this in the first place, it would read better as a moment of agency, rather than a sudden shift in motivation. In this video you seem most concerned with whether Clover's self sacrifice was a thematically sensible thing to do, or that it contradicts thematic precedents found in Undertale. That's a really loaded discussion that I'm trying to avoid having for both our sakes, since you seemed really tired of arguing about it in Andrew Cunningham's comment section. I'd be willing to discuss that if you're up for it, but for now this comment is already quite dense.
Firstly, thank you so so much for a thoughtful and interesting comment! (and from a fellow Niko enjoyer too! 😹) This is the kind of comment that makes me feel like I haven't wasted my time making a silly RUclips video and that someone actually cared about what I made! 😅 Now, onto the UTY discussion: I think you're probably right in that the devs were rushing to finish the game. The Ceroba fight being one of the causes for it, if true, would be quite unfortunate, because, in my personal opinion, that whole fight really didn't need to be in the game. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels that way, but I found the whole Ceroba/Kanako/Shujin plotline to be completely unnecessary and I think the game would've been better if it was removed entirely. It just felt too much like fan-fiction to me in an otherwise a very restrained game when it comes to changing or reimagining Undertale lore. My video probably didn't convey it very well as I was more focused on pointing out everything I thought was wrong with the ending, but my true, biggest issue with the true pacifist ending is just the implication of Clover's actions. I am, morally, deeply opposed to the concept of collective punishment or "inherited guilt", or anything of that nature. Clover being a human does not mean they have a responsibility to right the wrongs that some humans have committed in the past. Only the individuals who are guilty of those actions bear responsibility for them. And, at least to me, it seemed that the true pacifist ending was implying otherwise. To me, it came across like the ending was saying "if you are in any way related to people who have done something wrong in the past, then you are partially responsible and must fix their mistakes." I just fundamentally disagree with that message.
@@unnamedmuffin I never really considered Clover's sacrifice to be for the sake of atoning for humanity's actions. Like, I hadn't considered that was the intent until you just pointed it out to me. I had assumed it was something personal to Clover's convictions, but the fact that we don't get a good idea of what those convictions are makes it a bit hard to parse the meaning here. I thought Clover simply wanted to stop running, to do something for the sake of monsters now, instead of hiding from Asgore and the royal guard for an indeterminate amount of time. That's completely speculation on my part, and even then it still has holes. On paper, I didn't mind the Ketsukane story at all, but it doesn't fit neatly into many of Undertale's plot point besides Alphys' research. If this plotline was going to be so important, I think Clover's fate should have been left completely separate from Asgore's plan entirely, that way there wouldn't be a disconnect between solving Ceroba's crisis and confronting Asgore directly afterwards. Even though I like your take on what the ending should be like, it doesn't address the fact that the climax of the game revolves around solving a problem that's only tangentially related to Clover's struggles and motivations. I think Clover just doesn't have enough agency and characterization to pull off whatever the ending was trying to do. Clover is a character with a personal mission and personal values, but not enough time was spent exploring that to draw a firm conclusion. I want to be wrong. This game feels like it has something to say and I just don't really know what it is. If it is supposed to be implicitly agreeing with inherited guilt like you identified, then I would dislike that. But I want to believe someone out there can connect the dots in a more satisfying way. Side Tangent: Undertale's pacifist ending isn't a fully anti-violent message either. In Undertale, Asriel had to absorb the power of seven human souls to shatter the barrier. You could argue that the pacifist ending implicitly believes that the deaths of the 6 previous humans were necessary to achieve a better outcome later. I don't think the game is trying to say that at all, but it is part of the text. By that, I mean it is an unspoken but factual part of the story. Six humans had to die before humans and monsters could live in peace. Asriel even addresses this somewhat when you talk to him during the epilogue. He wonders whether refusing to kill those humans on the surface was really the right decision if people had to die anyway, and for how long it took for freedom to come. I don't know how to weave these thoughts into my main discussion, but I wanted to put that out there since you talked about how Yellow's themes of sacrifice go against Undertale non-violent message, and I think that may not be entirely true depending on how you read the game.
@@umyum3858 I think the fact that Frisk survives at the end of the True Pacifist ending in Undertale implies that the seven human souls required for the barrier to be shattered don't actually have to be dead. After all, it never states in the lore that the humans who created the barrier had to sacrifice their lives to do it. Not to mention, Frisk can leave through the barrier alone without dying in the neutral endings. I think those things show that seven alive humans could've opened the barrier if they worked together. Seeing as how the six human souls were rejecting Flowey's control, I think it in a way shows that it wasn't that Asriel was able to single-handedly open the barrier, but that those human souls chose to open it, meaning they didn't have to be dead for that to happen.
@@unnamedmuffin Yeah, that's a good observation, I agree with that. Ideally I would want to see someone interpret UTY in a way that I find fully satisfying, since I'm struggling to do that myself. If that can't happen, that's probably because the message of the game is inherently confused in some way. There's not much I can do about it other than just walk away appreciating what I did like about UTY, which is most of it. Flowey's relationship with Clover, all the new characters, the way it expands the world in mostly believable ways. I get caught up on this ending that I don't even outright dislike to the level that you do, just because I wish there was some way to fit all the pieces together perfectly, when there likely is not.
@@umyum3858 Thank you! 😊 I, overall, like Undertale Yellow a lot. Martlet alone makes this fan-game near and dear to my heart. 🥰 However, I do feel like the ending soured my overall enjoyment of the game as it is one of the first things that comes to my mind when I think of it. 🥲
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This is why the fake pacifist ending makes a lot more sense.
@@SonicFan10125 I agree 😊
I do like the alternative outcome that you presented. While I don't necessarily agree with everything that you identified as a flaw, I think this does a decent job of not only giving Asgore and Flowey an important role, like you said, but also addresses the questionable pacing of the ending.
I believe the UTY dev team had a desire to wrap things up as quick as they could, for fear of dragging out the ending. I can understand why, considering Ceroba is a difficult four phase fight, they would want the game to end quickly so that players don't get too exhausted. However I think that created some pacing issues both during and after the fight. I believe that Ceroba's motivation isn't given enough attention to make sense the way it is presented to us in the fight. Most notably, they try to consolidate Kanako discovering the serum, and Ceroba choosing to inject her daughter with it all into one cutscene. This leaves no room for the audience to make certain assumptions that would make this decision make sense. We don't get see Ceroba deliberate over whether this is the right thing to do. We don't have the benefit of the doubt that she tested the serum beforehand, which would make her surprise over the outcome more believable. Too much was placed into one cutscene. I can't think of a great solution to this. If they split up that scene into two: Kanako discovers the serum and Ceroba tells her not to use it, or that it's dangerous. Then we have another cutscene afterwards where the serum is used, giving the audience the chance to assume that time has passed. However, this would necessitate adding another phase to the fight, which is what the team was likely trying to avoid in the first place.
The second problem is the one that you were more concerned with in this video, that Clover's decision to sacrifice themselves is sudden and not given thorough "justification" as an option. I think if we were just given more context into why Clover wanted to do this in the first place, it would read better as a moment of agency, rather than a sudden shift in motivation.
In this video you seem most concerned with whether Clover's self sacrifice was a thematically sensible thing to do, or that it contradicts thematic precedents found in Undertale. That's a really loaded discussion that I'm trying to avoid having for both our sakes, since you seemed really tired of arguing about it in Andrew Cunningham's comment section. I'd be willing to discuss that if you're up for it, but for now this comment is already quite dense.
Firstly, thank you so so much for a thoughtful and interesting comment! (and from a fellow Niko enjoyer too! 😹)
This is the kind of comment that makes me feel like I haven't wasted my time making a silly RUclips video and that someone actually cared about what I made! 😅
Now, onto the UTY discussion:
I think you're probably right in that the devs were rushing to finish the game. The Ceroba fight being one of the causes for it, if true, would be quite unfortunate, because, in my personal opinion, that whole fight really didn't need to be in the game. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels that way, but I found the whole Ceroba/Kanako/Shujin plotline to be completely unnecessary and I think the game would've been better if it was removed entirely. It just felt too much like fan-fiction to me in an otherwise a very restrained game when it comes to changing or reimagining Undertale lore.
My video probably didn't convey it very well as I was more focused on pointing out everything I thought was wrong with the ending, but my true, biggest issue with the true pacifist ending is just the implication of Clover's actions. I am, morally, deeply opposed to the concept of collective punishment or "inherited guilt", or anything of that nature. Clover being a human does not mean they have a responsibility to right the wrongs that some humans have committed in the past. Only the individuals who are guilty of those actions bear responsibility for them. And, at least to me, it seemed that the true pacifist ending was implying otherwise. To me, it came across like the ending was saying "if you are in any way related to people who have done something wrong in the past, then you are partially responsible and must fix their mistakes." I just fundamentally disagree with that message.
@@unnamedmuffin I never really considered Clover's sacrifice to be for the sake of atoning for humanity's actions. Like, I hadn't considered that was the intent until you just pointed it out to me. I had assumed it was something personal to Clover's convictions, but the fact that we don't get a good idea of what those convictions are makes it a bit hard to parse the meaning here. I thought Clover simply wanted to stop running, to do something for the sake of monsters now, instead of hiding from Asgore and the royal guard for an indeterminate amount of time. That's completely speculation on my part, and even then it still has holes.
On paper, I didn't mind the Ketsukane story at all, but it doesn't fit neatly into many of Undertale's plot point besides Alphys' research. If this plotline was going to be so important, I think Clover's fate should have been left completely separate from Asgore's plan entirely, that way there wouldn't be a disconnect between solving Ceroba's crisis and confronting Asgore directly afterwards. Even though I like your take on what the ending should be like, it doesn't address the fact that the climax of the game revolves around solving a problem that's only tangentially related to Clover's struggles and motivations.
I think Clover just doesn't have enough agency and characterization to pull off whatever the ending was trying to do. Clover is a character with a personal mission and personal values, but not enough time was spent exploring that to draw a firm conclusion.
I want to be wrong. This game feels like it has something to say and I just don't really know what it is. If it is supposed to be implicitly agreeing with inherited guilt like you identified, then I would dislike that. But I want to believe someone out there can connect the dots in a more satisfying way.
Side Tangent: Undertale's pacifist ending isn't a fully anti-violent message either. In Undertale, Asriel had to absorb the power of seven human souls to shatter the barrier. You could argue that the pacifist ending implicitly believes that the deaths of the 6 previous humans were necessary to achieve a better outcome later. I don't think the game is trying to say that at all, but it is part of the text. By that, I mean it is an unspoken but factual part of the story. Six humans had to die before humans and monsters could live in peace. Asriel even addresses this somewhat when you talk to him during the epilogue. He wonders whether refusing to kill those humans on the surface was really the right decision if people had to die anyway, and for how long it took for freedom to come. I don't know how to weave these thoughts into my main discussion, but I wanted to put that out there since you talked about how Yellow's themes of sacrifice go against Undertale non-violent message, and I think that may not be entirely true depending on how you read the game.
@@umyum3858 I think the fact that Frisk survives at the end of the True Pacifist ending in Undertale implies that the seven human souls required for the barrier to be shattered don't actually have to be dead.
After all, it never states in the lore that the humans who created the barrier had to sacrifice their lives to do it.
Not to mention, Frisk can leave through the barrier alone without dying in the neutral endings.
I think those things show that seven alive humans could've opened the barrier if they worked together.
Seeing as how the six human souls were rejecting Flowey's control, I think it in a way shows that it wasn't that Asriel was able to single-handedly open the barrier, but that those human souls chose to open it, meaning they didn't have to be dead for that to happen.
@@unnamedmuffin Yeah, that's a good observation, I agree with that. Ideally I would want to see someone interpret UTY in a way that I find fully satisfying, since I'm struggling to do that myself. If that can't happen, that's probably because the message of the game is inherently confused in some way.
There's not much I can do about it other than just walk away appreciating what I did like about UTY, which is most of it. Flowey's relationship with Clover, all the new characters, the way it expands the world in mostly believable ways. I get caught up on this ending that I don't even outright dislike to the level that you do, just because I wish there was some way to fit all the pieces together perfectly, when there likely is not.
@@umyum3858 Thank you! 😊
I, overall, like Undertale Yellow a lot. Martlet alone makes this fan-game near and dear to my heart. 🥰
However, I do feel like the ending soured my overall enjoyment of the game as it is one of the first things that comes to my mind when I think of it. 🥲
based
undertale yellow* sucks