Using oil on waterstones and water on oilstones ?
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- There is a bit of an odd idea that you can't use oil on waterstones or mix the two on a stone. Neither of these is true. In industry it is not uncommon to use oil or water or even a mixture of oil and water on the same stone.
The reason you don't strictly need to use oil on a Japanese stone is that they generally have weak bonds and they break down vs the abrasive wearing smooth. On vitrified bond stones like the Norton India this doesn't happen and oil helps more so than water in reducing friction and keeps the abrasive cutting.
Thanks. Very helpful. With cheap stones, they often don't have instructions. They don't even tell you if it's a oil, or water stone.
Thank you, this is a very useful weapon against both ignorance and the 'facts' you mention.
Rest in peace, Cliff.
Can't tell if it's bad camera quality or he made a bunch of knifes and tested their sharpness on his left arm
I Was Wondered same thing !!!
i dont mean to be off topic but does any of you know of a way to log back into an instagram account??
I somehow lost my login password. I love any assistance you can offer me
@Deangelo Ty Instablaster :)
Thanks. Very informative. expressive hands. very clear.
My 7 year old nephew 'borrowed' my king 1k stone. He loaded it up with the baby oil for my norton and I must say I am really thoroughly surprised, the 1k grit soaked the oil and now the stone is almost a splash and go stone and I really do think that I will be posting a vid of this little unintentional mod. I like oil stone for the splash and go aspect but prefer the finish of waterstones. I really am happy to know that I can use my king 1k without having to wait the 10 minute soak.
some japanese stones used for sharpening swords require soaks of up to 12 hours and others need to be lacquered and paper backed
Very helpful - I always wondered about this.
I have been thinking about this same concept recently. I have a crystolon stone which I was told would work better/cleaner with water than using oil. This turned out to be false as it loads like crazy. I kept it in a box for over a year til recently. It takes a lot of pressure but for thinning clad japanese knives it does a good job of it. I noticed a large decrease in loading since using oil.
After this observation, I thought about my collection of 'soft and muddy' coarse japanese stones which I have problems keeping flat (working on using the whole stone technique..). If I could use them dry, they would act 'harder' and produce less mud/stay flat but then they would load. If I used oil the stone would still be lubricated without being soaked and excessively muddy/wasteful. My old imanishi pink brick goes unused due to how wasteful it is and so it became a guinea pig for me only yesterday.
Instead of soaking in water like I was told and always have done in the past I just splashed it with the smallest amount of oil and lo and behold the stone didnt explode. In fact, the dishing problems I felt when using it soaked were no longer an issue. On top of this, no loading problems either. The whole stone changed performance considerably. It still shed abrasive but at a much lower rate thn using it soaked.
The finish on the blade changed from a harsh coarse scratch pattern with the slightest bit of haze (from a soaked stone) to a light hazy kind of finish (using oil)- similar effect provided by an ss 400 although I would guess the 220 pink brick to have slightly coarser scratches. Whilst this affect is achievable using low pressure on the mud with a soaked stone, using oil made achieving this finish trivial - even at higher pressures.
Seeing as I've only got one sharpening session to go off, I couldn't say whether it is faster or slower to sharpen using oil over water although I would tend to think due to the less harsh scratch pattern forming on the blade that it would cut slower but giving a finer overall finish. More importantly, it has definitely opened my eyes and has me thinking more about what I can achieve with different stones just by manipulating how I lubricate them.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Years have gone, how has developed your sharpening? Does what you have learned still apply?
Thank you
@@jonugalde1275 sharpening has taken a back seat in my life over the past few years but I think more than anything there's more confidence that I can get a satisfactory edge without requiring a large array of stones that I thought I did when I first started out over 10 years ago. Overall I think I generally prefer using stones that respond well to water but I've amassed a huge collection over the years when I wasn't also paying a premium for them so I have the luxury of choice.
After I played around with lubricants all these years ago I started trying out different grit stones to use as a nagura for finishing on some of my harder stones- that too had an influence on my edges depending on how fine the nagura was that I used. Whether it was an improvement or not.. I didn't make a proper experiment of it to make those comparisons in a numerical sense
My grandfather use to work with steam engines and they would make a slurry with oil and water by adding soap.
I suspect the original preference in this started due to whether a sharpening stone was exposed to freezing conditions. A water stone will have some issues with the water seeping in, and may crack if stored somewhere cold due to the water freezing. Not so much with an oil stone. But a stone setup to use water is much easier to deal with otherwise, as oil can be somewhat messy.
Thanks for sharing this. I became annoyed that my 1000g Sigma water stone kept evaporating, even after being totally immersed in water overnight. So I soaked it in paraffin and tried oil on it - this worked quite well but still the oil was soaking in! I've now neutralised it with washing up liquid (UK) and am trying to load up the surface. So far I've used neat dish soap and this works pretty well. I've also used barrier cream which I think is water soluble and this is keeping the water on the stone.
I compliment the host for addressing this topic. Also used with "stones", straight up or as a mixture are: kerosene, gasoline, mineral spirits, turpentine, alcohol, bleach (to prevent mold), WD-40 (and other lubricants). Of course I have left out numerous liquids that help keep the swarf from clogging the stone.
I bought a stone once that was labeled as an "oil" stone. I decide to use water because I had always preferred that less messy alternative. The damned thing dissolved in my hands like mud. This was many years ago and can't tell you much about it. Wish I could remember the brand because I'd like to talk about them like a redheaded stepchild.
There are some very soft bond stones, they are meant generally to be used on very wide contacts on very hard to grind steels usually.
An oilstone means a natural stone that almost always comes from Arkansas. At least the good ones all do. Only an idiot puts water on a real oilstone.
James, there are lots of stones called "oilstones", Norton makes two synthetic common brands and has for decades.
Cliff Stamp i just got 2 little Norton stones and i was wonder if i could use water on them. It says to use oil though.
You can, however they will wear better, work better and clean up better with a light oil. If you can't use oil, a light detergent and water works better than raw water.
Very informative! Thank you.
I liked the video. I have used water and oil on my Arkansas stones. There is virtually no difference. One thing I agree with you on is, I'm not taking my expensive Sharpton GS and trying them with oil. If I live long enough to wear them out, I might try it. But, I doubt I'll live that long.
Shapton specifically says oil is OK actually. I was surprised to read that
Lots to think about here. Nice video.
Some of the fitters in the colliery workshops used soluble hydraulic oil [Aquacent] on stones
I must say, I rather like this format of videos at your table. It's how I'd imagine an FDR-esque fireside chat for knife nerds.
In the machine shop at school, we've got a bucket of an odd assortment of stones for removing burrs, and they reside full time in kerosene. Maybe the requirement for eye protection is in case they suddenly fragment due to unhappiness.
PrinceValorum Ha,. all the Japanese stones I bought have little cartoons which show them crying if exposed to various things like direct sunlight, chemicals, wind. I think they maybe related to Gremlins.
Cats and dogs living together.
Btw, once I noticed the bare left arm and the hairy right one, I couldn't stop noticing it. If the invaders ever come looking for sharpening fanatics, it'll be a dead giveaway.
***** I'll distract them with witty banter.
@@CliffStamp do you prefer oil or water
@@bigwoody4704 It depends on the stone. I would suggest vs thinking oil or water, think about how much lubrication your stone requires and the nature of it. For example a very fine grit stone with a very small abrasive simply can't work with oil (as it will mask the abrasive) unless you don't want abrasion and you want rubbing -or- you use very high pressure (industrial grinding).
@@CliffStampBTW thanx for the reply I just am comfortable with oil stones.I've really enjoyed your presentations.Will probably purchase the Spyderco 2"x8" ceramic bench stone.What reasonably priced oil stone would you recommend in a fine grit?
@@bigwoody4704 For simple steels, India.
I use anti bacterial soap as a lubricant. With or without water. Oil is messy and expensive
You are so correct! I argued with some on this.
Does this information translate to the Tormek water stones as well? I have no control of my shop temps at night, which is located in the Midwest. Freezing is a big deal here and I do not want to crack my stones. I want to try mineral oil, but no one from Tormek has answered my questions yet
thank you. I got an oil spot on my Japanese water stone and wanted to know how to fix it. problem fixed.
Water stones are clay based, They require water to help slowly dissolve the clay giving you a slurry or award which can cut and polish better sometimes, but also because some stones load up metal in them really bad which stops them from working, so it helps to slowly erode it away to reduce or stop the load up, and again a thick award can be great for sharpening, and a thin award can be really good for polishing, giving one stone multiple uses, oil stones are typically harder and less porous, and the oil doesn't evaporate or absorb quickly and helps to wash away the award instead of it loading up the stone, water stones made of ceramics need water as well to reduce load up and to produce that same award or slurry of different thicknesses for different purposes, so there actually are reasons why you would need water for a water stone since oil doesn't dissolve the clay sufficiently and would produce way to thick of a swarf, and oil can be used on non porous stones since it doesn't evaporate or absorb as readily, and it better keeps load up from happening, there's a reason for all this, not just them telling you that you can't use this over that
But slurry is not good tho.
Great video. My Italian Master Carpenter/Cabinet Maker Grandfather used to store his stones in a can of oil. I don't know if that was good for those stones of his era but I don't think I ever saw one break or anything odd. He used them quite a bit. He even carried one in his tool box when he'd come to our house to fix something. (he passed away about the mid 70s). Now I'm wondering if or how stones have changed over the past 50-100 years. I totally forgot that some folks used to use soap, like dish liquid, when I was a kid (60's) Your green stuff reminded me. Be well, Cliff.
Thanks for the advice!
You know what's fancy? That tea-cup to your left.
My world has been turned upside down. Oil on water stones and water on oil stones? Lunacy, I say!
Interesting vid. I was unaware of the Norton 'economy stone's' composition and how that impacts the lubricant used when sharpening.
YasumotoUS That was a gift from Old Spice when I gave him a My Little Pony DVD.
Mineral Oil stays on the whetstone much longer than water, making a quick sharpening easier.
i enjoy your videos and learn lots from them, thank you. your bare left arm makes me think that you have been testing a lot of blades.
Cliff Stamp thats the next video i am going to watch. i also really enjoy your outdoor videos in the woods, your countryside looks so very nice.
i hit thumbs up as soon as you said paring knife.
I used to use water on a little stone that came with a modeling scalpel kit. The kit came with a container of oil, implying that it was to be used with oil. Anyway when I used water on it the it would kinda dissolve and get gunky and sticky
A stone is a stone is a rock is a stone is a rock so it doesn't matter anyway. Rock on, get stoned ! Stay sharp !
Awesome vid !!!Thank You !!!!!
Switching back and forth from water to oil is something you just dont do !
Background noise sounds like a Coleman Lantern running wide open.
Maybe someone could come up with boutique honing solution formulas tuned for different stones and steels that you could mix yourself before use.
so if I use oil instead of water on my cheap, super-hard, hardware store waterstones, they might actually behave in a sensible manner, this is such an obvious experiment that I actually feel stupid for not thinking of it myself...
have you tried different viscosities of oil to see if there is a difference in behaviour?
***** No, I have mainly used mineral oil, that is an interesting question though.
no i'm really confused i think i might use wt and dry paper instead
i would wonder if you were to soak a waterstone with oil, since it stays wet from the oil and doesn't dry out, i would be worried it would turn it to mush and the stone would break apart during sharpening.
knives save lives Many modern waterstones actually use the same bond as oil stones, even the same abrasive.
Can I use water on an Arkansas to wash it after it has been used with oil? Or ir wrong? I heard a part of oilbremain inside rhe stone and it is wrong but have no fonts to a real thrue😢
i actully got an intristing 1 .....shaveing gel ((ive tried cream to but gel is the best of the 2)) not sure why but ive got a edge apex clone and my stones is 240 diamond 600 diamond 1000 diamon 3000 ruby 5-6000 white 8000 green 10,000 translucent white ....i use oil water and shave gel ((different sharpening knives what ever i feel like playing with)) once i hit the ruby....out of the 3 i notice when i use the shave gel ((all other things being equel meaning the angle the number of strokes and other factors)) when i do an arm shave test......useing the gel it produces a much more aggressive edge ((easily shaveing and shaveing alot)) vs oil or water
I have not used gel, but in general, you want to match the lubricant to the grit, too heavy and it will mask, too light and it will see heavy friction. Nice experiment in any case.
5:00 this is where I think you're saying the most important thing, but still cant catch it:
"Friction increases wear on the abrasive, and decreases wear on what you're actually trying to cut"...
Mmm, I'm new here, cant figure it out.
Friction is the steel hitting the abrasive and wasting energy by rubbing, that doesn't do anything but wear the abrasive and weaken the steel - hence use a lubricant.
Cliff, so what are your thoughts on John Juranitch and sharpening on a dry stone? Also, when it comes to oil, I personally never use it, mainly just because it's messy, slippery (which is dangerous when used with sharp knives), stains clothing, is expensive when compared to sharpening dry or with water, and is impractical to carry with you when in the woods. In the end, I just find oil to be too impractical in my opinion. But of course, everyone is going to have differing opinions, and that's fine.
I don't agree with his arguments, and he ignores obviously industrial counter points such as frictional loss leading to poor abrasive life and loss of cutting ability of the stone.
If oil is problematic, then there are other alternatives to it. However if oil is really messy then likely far too much oil is being used. It is only a lubricant, stones made for oil typically have high bond density and strength and thus can work usually with trivial amounts of oil on the surface, just get a decent applicator.
But even water+detergent makes a decent alternative, but will produce a far lower abrasive lifetime, especially on hard to cut steels.
Great video Cliff. I've said that to friends for years only to get an argument. So I ended the conversation. Lol. Btw I use Isopropyl alcohol on my diamond stones as it controls the dust, among other things. This is on my Wicked Edge btw and not on my Japanese Water/Oil Stones. Haha. Ur opinion on Alcohol Cliff in diamond stones ????
Mark in Ky.
Hunter Green I always use a lubricant on the diamonds, often Simple Green or water with an anti-rust agent. But alcohol would work as well. Trend sells an actual lubricant they designed for diamond abrasives, curious about that.
Why bother with any of these - diamond plates are very affordable nowadays ( I use a double sided plate with medium and fine grit, that's just 30€). They don't wear down, they don't hollow out. Just make them wet and don't use much pressure, let the diamonds work for you.
I having been using water and/or oil on all of my oilstones and diamond plates for years. I just bought my first Japanese waterstones last year, and only used water on them because all the information I read, and the manufacturers instructions said so, I never even thought to use anything else.
Yehoshua Jason D. Stone In general I would not advocate using oil on waterstones because it isn't likely to produce a better result. I started doing it after the discussion we had just as a trial. I like it on some stones as it makes them splash and go. I think it might be interesting for some stones that people complain are too hard which typically means the bond strength is too high for how they are using them.
I have a stone from 40 years ago I was told to use oil on it and always have . I also didn’t know there were water stones till I started watching utube videos on knife sharpening a few years ago . 😂😂😂😂
Neat! I only really have experience with diamond and ceramic sharpeners, which don't need any particular lubricant, but I always thought that non natural water stone needed to be used with water because the binding agent was made of some type of petroleum product that would get broken down by oil. Think oil vs not oil resistant shoe rubber. I have never actually met a real waterstone in real life so that assumption was one of ignorance. They were usually more expensive than I could afford.
Anyway, besides oil I actually like spit for a lubricant. The mucus proteins do a nice job of keeping the lubricant in place, instead of running off the edge. To each his own!
I use mustard as an emulsifier when I mix oil and water the I use what is leftover as a salad dressing. The metal adds flavour.
Also that is a pretty tea cup. Fine bone china? Looks like it. I had a bone china coffee cup but it broke and I haven't been able to fine a suitable replacement.
Your left arm looks as if it was recently transplanted on to your torso....
Finally, what did you say about that knife at the end it was a bit Newfie!?
mark a Yes, exactly right. I have a couple of them. I would rather slightly different handles, but it isn't easy to fine China which fits.
XM-18, decent knife, a little small for my hands.
Are you sure the stone didn't explode when you put both on there?
+scottecooke It might have created a black hole.
Cliff Stamp So now the truth comes out :)
Thanks.
Actually I did the same "experiment" yesterday
Cliff, if oil is a better lubricant and reduces friction, why not use oil on diamond stones? Have you tried it?
+Le Wang I use detergent on the very coarse ones. On the fine-x-fine ones I use water with a anti-rust agent. You have to match the lubricant to the grit essentially. If you go too heavy you can mask the grit.
Is it possible the waterstones with their resin bonds would not break down as well with the oil? I'm assuming the pressure of the sharpening is what breaks the bonds that creates the slurry which helps further break the bonds, but I didn't know if water's high solubility / polarity has anything to do with helping to break those resin bonds.
C amber It worked fine on the King but that has a weak bond. On some of the stronger bond waterstones it might prevent the necessary friction maybe and prevent from from forming a slurry. I intend to keep it in mind and do some experimenting with stones.
Cliff Stamp I hadn't thought about the reduced friction possibly being a negative either. Interesting to see what shakes free.
Something to add: So i got a new naniwa combination stone 1000/3000 and as usual i sharpened couple of stones... liked it a lot, the finish was kinda matt and everything was ok. On the next day i decided to sharpen again and i have 2 little similar bottles one with mineral oil and the other with water. So when i got to the 3000 side i put oil in it by mistake and it instantly soaked into the stone so i just added water on top and polished the knife. It turned out MIRROR polished and i was seeing my face on the bevel... when i tried it on piece of paper it did push cuts like if its nothing... My question is can the oil actually made the stone work as higher than 3000 grit stone, because the day before the knives i shaprened was not polished and couldnt do push cuts?
Yes, it is essentially going to mask the abrasive.
So a question then...
What about Escher or other thuringian stone with oil?
I think I saw an old label "use with water or oil".
Also the owner of the company following Escher tolde me you can since it already has natural oil in it anyway. The edge will get finer.
On the other hand I read in the Internet you can't since it will clog up.
So... Can I? Can't I just rub it with fresh oil and whipe it off as I do with my Turkish oil stone?
Will it maybe loosen the stones structure if it has natural oil in it already?
It will not affect the structure of the stone, and the clogging is dependent on the type of oil. Linseed oil for example will oxidize, it forms clumps on the outside of the bottle which you can see when exposed to air, that type of oil if used on a stone would not be productive.
In general, you match the thickness of the lubricant to the grain size of the stone, a very coarse stone will need a heavier lubricant (or at least can use one). If you use a very heavy oil on a very fine stone, the stone might be completely masked by the lubricant and you could see little to no actual abrasion.
In general, lubricants stop the stone from wearing (as they reduce friction) and keep them cutting, so you want the heaviest lubricant which isn't so heavy it masks (as this provides the greatest removal of friction). I have not used those stones but since they are very fine, I would look for a *very* light oil, but likely see what happened when I started with water (they maybe water and a light detergent).
thank you sir
So are you saying it is fine to use water and soap on an India stone?
Ok, here is the thing, this isn't a trivial question to answer. IF you use a lot of force, you want to use oil because you need MORE of a lubricant, if you use very light force, then oil probably won't matter, even water might be enough. In general, the more force you use, the more friction you will have and you want the oil to prevent that. It only takes a little experimenting to find out what is best. A lot of people use a very light lubricant, like simple green (a kind of cleaner), as they don't use a lot of force.
IF you use a lot of force and use water, you will find that the stone will stop cutting sooner than if you used a heavier lubricant and you will have to recut the stone more often.
Water is alive is a big difference
True, dead water is horrible on stones.
I have seen comments on arkansas stones and oils to use. I've actually been using soapy water on my arkansas and it seems to be alright. It's a very hard black arkansas from Dan's. Is soapy water a mistake? Should I be using something else? I'd like to get the most out of my stone, ideally.
In general, very general. The finer the stone, the finer the lubricant.
If your lubricant isn't enough of a lubricant, you get frictional rubbing vs actual cutting. The only way to know is actually test them and see which one produces the optimum edges for the longest times.
There's a guy on youtube who recommends Norton India stones, which he claims are impregnated with oil, but he recommends that you boil them in water until the oil is gone. He likes his stones bone dry. I don't think I'd do that but do you not see a conflict of interest between reducing friction with oil or water and sharpening ability? In other words if you eliminated all friction would not not have a stone that wouldn't cut metal?
+Tin Man Friction isn't how it cuts, friction is the waste heat from not cutting.
When people use oil on stones and they claim they don't cut they are using heavily loaded stones. Most of those people don't know how to condition stones and have no idea how stones should cut.
+Cliff Stamp I found when changing to using oil on some stones that I had never used oil on, and ones I had. That when I went from water to oil it cut much better. But I also have a Norton IB8 that doesn't have oil in it (which is weird ecause every other one I had seen came pre soaked with oil), and it cuts really well with just water.Unfortunately I don't know enough about the stones to know the reasons behind all this, so I just use what works best on the particular stone and it keeps me happy (more of a practical than scientific consideration there).
+Cliff Stamp I've been experimenting with a Washita and a couple Arkansas stones and I agree that they work with either oil or water - maybe a bit better with oil but I couldn't prove it. But when you say oil doesn't dry out I beg to disagree. I squeezed out a drop of honing oil on a scrap of metal a couple weeks ago - now it's gooey, gummy, sticky sludge. This was branded honing oil. I'm sure different oils behave differently but I've become convinced that my stones work way better if I strip off the old oil occasionally. I scrub them with detergent and a stiff nylon brush and then re-oil them or use water and the stones are better for it. Really brings them to life.
Ask yourself this question - if I coated an axe with a perfect magical compound which removed all friction and then slammed it down into a piece of wood, do you think it would not cut the wood because of the loss of friction or do you think it would actually cut better because of it?
People think that friction helps the cutting, it doesn't. It is easy to think about it with axes because you can see the effects of the friction direction. When an axe head gets dirty/sticky you can feel that reducing cutting ability. The same happens with the abrasives, you just can't see it.
Yes, I should have clarified. There are oils which have oxidizating agents which will basically turn them solid, as well oils can pick up dirt from the air and turn into a thick mess over time.
Mr. Stamp,
First thank you for all of the great work and sharing your experiences. As a beginner level sharpener I could really use some advice. I've decided to try to learn how to free hand sharpen instead of using systems like sharpmakers and edge pros. I'm curious to know what additional stones you would recommend for varying steels. I currently own a Naniwa Super Whetstone at 400grit (found it on one of your videos), a king combination waterstone 800/4000 grit, and a Norton coarse stone with unknown grit. Would this combination of stones suffice for steels such as S90V, ZDP-189, S30V, M390? I have used them for steels such as carbon steels, VG10, and 154CM with some inconsistent results but I'm sure that has more to do with technic than the stones themselves. If not can you recommend additional stones? Are diamond stones necessary for much harder steels as listed?
lukez21 The Norton coarse stone is likely a very strong sintered bond. I have some of them, they are useful when you want to set a very coarse apex, but they are not very useful in grinding the edge itself as those very high carbide steels need a weaker bond stone.
For setting the final apex I prefer very strong bond, or in fact no-bond stones :
-Atoma/DMT
-Spyderco plates
For grinding the edge, Sigma Power Select II, but that King is nice as well on the 800. I would think the 4000 part is likely a struggle on those steels.
Cliff Stamp Thank you. I will look into the Sigma Power Select II. I have watched some of your videos and read many of your forum posts and have come to understand that the stones you use vary depending on the steel you wish to sharpen. I have recently been experimenting with M390. So assuming I get a hold of the Sigma Power Select II what order of stones would I use to achieve a very fine edge. And where does the Naniwa Super Whetstone come into play?
lukez21 What grit on the Sigma Power Select II? I'm assuming a lower grit since it will be used for grinding? 240?
lukez21 Yes, stones are really steel sensitive much like knives are task sensitive.
The Naniwa Superstone 400 is a nice stone to use to set an edge and prepare for a micro-bevel but it will struggle on steels much past ATS-34/D2. It can work S30V and m390 but you will find that the surface tends to go slick and will need conditioning as the bond is too strong and it won't break down enough to keep the grit fresh/sharp.
If you are not changing the edge angles then then King 800 will set the edge easily. With the edge set then all you need to do it add the apex or micro bevel. This is best done with a very strong bond stone like a Spyderco or DMT plate. It can be done with the King 4000 but that is one of the most difficult stones to use to the the actual apex set.
However stones are not magic, they make things easier/difficult but skill/experience comes into it as much or more.
lukez21 Are you going to be changing the edge angles or removing heavy chips? Then the 240. Otherwise the 1000.
These are REALLY weak bond stones, they are designed to cut the hardest to cut steels and they do so by releasing fresh abrasive readily. You have to use them with just enough force to make contact. If you press hard you will just eat the stone readily.
Friends, anyone here uses ARKANSAS stone? Here in my country do not think of original oil sharpening stones Arkansas, care is too expensive.
Can anyone tell if the mineral oil 100% pure medicinal use will work ?, this have easy and is not toxic to my surgical instruments. Thank you !
+Lúcio Lourenço Faraveli Yes, I use a light mineral oil on soft/hard Arkansas.
I normally share this point of view, but I have had situations were I've learned to just sick to one. I have a coarse India since that I would use with oil, then started to use water one day. It would produce this sludge that I would have to scrub off with dish soap. It wouldn't simply wear off while sharpening.
I'm kind of curious about the petroleum based oils and how they would react to some of the resin bonds. Some people use straight kerosene(paraffin). That tends to make a decent solvent as well.
I think that might just be something from the factory, my Norton Fine India side of my IC6 had the same thing when I went to lap it, it was real nasty, goo. Maybe it is dried oil or a sealer from the factory, or a combination of both. Did this happen when you first got your stone also?
That is possible. It might be whatever oil they use to pre-soak their stones. And no, at first i was only using oil.
fervens I will keep an eye out next time the stone needs to be resurfaced if that gunk comes up again.
What are your thoughts on dry stones?
I don't see any reason not to use a lubricant, friction isn't doing anything useful.
It would be interesting to know what Murray Carter would think of this approach. You are ruining the weabooness of waterstones.
Bill22252 I don't imagine that would go over well, give it a shot.
Your thoughts on the coticule?
Have not used one significantly.
ever use petroleum jelly.........? on a stone, of course.
All I know is no Japanese chef using quality water stone ever uses anything but water.
The Japanese traditionally used natural sharpening stones lubricated with water (using oil on a waterstone reduces its effectiveness). The geology of Japan provided a type of stone which consists of fine silicate particles in a clay matrix, somewhat softer than novaculite.
Japanese stones are also sedimentary. This is why they used water
Yes I use water only on the water stones. Just never get the same edge as I get using oils stones. I’ll keep practicing
So you got the XM-18 back from the passaround? Any updates?
shurdi3 I am going to start carrying it again. I don't expect I have much to add. I was very curious about it considering what was said, however given the interaction on the Hinderer forum I have little interest in the knife.
What was the reaction on the hinderer forum?
shurdi3 Refusal to answer simple questions asked by Chris when he was doing the evaluation, censorship of the threads, locking/moving, etc..
Ah...the usual I see
Also that comment was made at a very odd hour of the night/morning. Shill forums giving you insomnia?
shurdi3 I am helping a friend move in about an hour.
What about kerosene as lubricant - I have seen people using Norton stones with petrol or diesel /wranglerstar/ on the youtube and many local carpenters are using kerosene for natural fine grit stones ?
I think it was Wayne Goddard that championed kerosene on oilstones, I haven't tried it.
Anyone else notice he has no hair left on his left arm? Lol
Malcolm Anderson same for me. Its called knife sharpeners mange
haha William Neesons got a big weenie, water bottle size, and that's at rest. so, makes sence that would b his knife.
An oil stone cuts better with nothing at all on it. It still cuts well with water. It cuts less well with oil than anything. But how well an oilstone cuts has nothing at all with why you should only use oil. You use oil on an oilstone because only oil has the density to float steel. If you use a bare stone, or is you use water on an oil stone, you WILL clog that stone up rapidly, particularly if it's a fine stone, but the same holds true with a soft stone. It just takes a little long. And, no, you can't just wash the stone and unclog it.
And, no, stones are not just stones. That's as silly as it gets. It's remarkably ignorant. Different types of stones have different compositions, different grain sizes, and different densities. Some stones are natural, and others are manmade. Some aren't even stone at all, they're diamond.
The simple fact is, like it or not, that only an idiot puts water on a good oilstone, and only a moron would ever put oil on a real water stone, and YES, there is such a thing as real water stone that is specifically made to use water if a manmade stone,, or that centuries of use has proven will only work well with water, and that oil can quickly destroy, if it is a natural stone of the same type..
It is only common in the industry to use both oil and water on specific types of stones made for that purpose, and saying a stone is just a stone is still the dumbest, most ignorant remark I've ever heard in a supposed "sharpening" video.
In short, you have no flipping idea what you're talking about, and whatever part of the industry you've been in, if any at all, is tiny, restrictive, and didn't teach you a darned thing about stones or sharpening.
Most of what you've said here is rephrasing exactly what his said, apart from asserting that: you should never, ever, use anything but the best lubricant/flusher (even on a £10 stone? or $1 sharpener); implying that oil/water-stones are actual minerals, rather than assigned class types and throwing personal insults like a bratty child.
Honestly, listen to everything he says and accept that, at least for the generations prior to this one (internet) and with the exception of specific geographies where certain natural 'stone' abrasives were available, what he's saying is what was previously considered common knowledge for hundreds of years.
Like he says, the stones won't melt or explode, it will just effect ware and cleaning.
What a tiny paring knife :)
Sea Got to start somewhere.