Ethan Klein Is Wrong About Capitalism... BUT
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
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#h3podcast #ethanklein #capitalism
Vaush has been garnering more and more respect for me lately. His approach is actually politically viable. as long as we don’t make him cultural minister.
I want his views on bottoms and horses to become mandated law
His cultural takes are actually the only thing he never misses on. You all are just too far gone down the consumerist rabbit hole to see it.
His socialism takes are braindead, but where he aligns with socdems, he's fine.
@@wfb.subtraktor311dude literally said the fighting game genre was the same and then pretended what he actually said was that they have the same central rules, then said games he liked didn't follow genre norms when they all did.
@@wfb.subtraktor311 He was dead wrong about The Last of Us Part II and I will never let this go.
People attribute so much "leftism" to Ethan. He is a normie compared to others in the online political space. He has a good heart on these issues, which is 99% of the battle we fight. We Stan Ethan.
He also has fairly rock-solid principles and sticks to them. We just need to clear up some misconceptions for him.
He's got better instincts than a lot of people on the left tbh
He’s a more honest Vaush since he doesn’t claim to be a socialist
Yuuup. He hust calls something objectely not capitalism, capitalism, bit whateva
@@bibsp3556well no, he still wanted to have private ownership of the means of production, with the bourgeoisie. He advocated for social democracy, which is better than most places but still is capitalist.
I feel like even a half hour convo between ethan and vaush could clear up a lot of ethan's misconceptions
Been wishing for this collab for a year now
@@TurtleChad1there’s literally famine going on right now THAT WE CAUSE in the name of capitalism……..what do you not care because it’s brown people starving??
Yes! I want this collab/convo so much!
@@TurtleChad1 i agree, we should improve our system in order to reduce those
Lol, why not “clear up a lot of Vaush’s misconception?”
What intelligent person gets into a conversation with another intelligent person only expecting to teach? When there’s no openness to possibly change one’s mind talking is pointless.
Ethan comes off as a little uncertain/unclear about some things, but I think his values have been progressively improving over the past few years. His outreach and genuine approach to situatuons when even larger figurea like Hassan hesitate out of fear of losing followers serves as a huge potential asset to the left.
Ethen is pretty clear about things, he just don't know political jargon. Socialist ideologies are all over the place and many are based in naïve idealism. The more extreme versions completely ignore human nature and psychology as a factor. Ethen is saying you can't force radical change without revolution death and war. Incrementalism is the only way to improve society peacefully. He's also saying that the Nordic model is the best system humans have come up with so far and he's right about that. Saying it's not good enough is the nirvana fallacy.
I think he uses normal terms and wraps the socialism left advocates in them. He says capitalism is good as a hook before literally directing towards how it's bad. It's the rhetorical equivalent of saying I like immigration but.... for the left. It's brilliant imo for attracting political illiterate types
@@bonitabromeliads Human nature isn't a good argument and you should never fall back on it. It's just a simple fact socialism as a tool to dismantle base capitalism as an economic system isn't viable based simply on history. The fix for capitalism is not to throw it out but to gear the system in the best way to benefit the common man, anyone saying that isn't possible through policy or government is just as bad as tankies that think the only effective political movement is running into senate with guns.
Ethan seems to stand by his positions. Sometimes he seems to bend a little to social pressure or to avoid being too combative, but I get the sense he mostly doesn’t care what anybody thinks and has strong internal values. Especially when it comes to Hasan, he’s balancing not alienating his host and having another blowup like Trisha. (And we know Hasan can blow up when pressed too hard.)
@@bonitabromeliads Perfect comment! I believe socialized utilities and/or communist ideas to regulate capitalism is the best and only actually achievable outcome. Full on revolution is not in the future and very few people want it. People saying human nature is a bad argument couldn't be more wrong. It's like libertarianism is great in a perfect fantasy vacuum. The second you factor the reality that is humanity it falls apart. Just like communism and socialism.
This highlights the value of socialists being able to paint a clear picture of the world we want to build with specifics on why it would be better. Ethan is expressing leftist values here, he just can't envision how to achieve a world that best serves those values.
Step 1: defund the genocidal American military machine, and shame the criminals who participate in it (such as Magnus).
Hasan also sucks at expressing what socialism is.
He should just say "it's the state owning pretty much all companies instead of random rich people."
Everyone who shows up when they're needed and works as hard as they can deserves a full share. ✊
@@serversurfer6169 this is true. Everything that gets done gets done by the working class.
@@serversurfer6169 and everyone who doesn't also deserves a "full share" whatever the fk that means.
The approach Vaush is advocating for here is incredibly correct. Ignorance is not malice, your knowledge either comes from your experiences or you were inspired to seek it through your experiences, filtered through your natural disposition which isn’t something you created anyway. It’s frustrating and exhausting, but we have to extend courtesy and compassion to be maximally effective, even sometimes in situations where it doesn’t immediately feel like it’s deserved.
And also remember that if you ask 10 people to define Socialism or Capitalism you'll get 30 different answers.
I agree with a random guy but not Ethan.
@@wta1518
How many answers do you get if you ask about communism?
@@warlordofbritannia at least 40, half of which are just fascism.
Ignorance is the default condition, so never fault someone for theirs. Rather, use that energy to enlighten them. ✊
I feel like when anyone brings up the " I don't think anyone should be banned from being too rich/ being a billionaire conversation" the conversation should be argued in terms of power not money. Should any one person or group of people in society be allowed to be too powerful? Instead of arguing over how many yachts or rolexes they should be allowed to have it should be a conversation over how many media conglomerates, or private military companies, or oil fields/steel production, etc should one person own? How does this translate in a democracy where the platonic ideal = one person one vote?
It’s this type of fundamental framing that completely changes how receptive people are going to be to what you have to say. You gotta talk to them in terms of their own interest first, not start off with abstracts.
@@warlordofbritannia agreed, if you get in the weeds about what luxuries a rich person should get you’re just missing the point. If you frame it correctly it shouldn’t be hard to convince most average people that rich people are clearly winning at their own and societies expense
Exactly.
this is a really well said, thank you I'm definitely gonna use this in conversations
This framing is perfect. A lot of convos get bogged down by this.
I'll give credit to Dan. His arguements might not have been the best, but understand that this is not a conversation he was really ready to have. Dan also isn't a political commentator, he's just the producer with Left ideologies.
I feel like Ethan has good intentions, he just might not be fully educated on stuff
I don’t think you can’t knock someone for that
Idk, it's hard not to knock him at least a little bit for being so incredibly ignorant of what socialism means, when as part of a career he talks quite a lot about stuff like this.
It's Intellectually lazy and irresponsible, at best.
@@snapgab it’s a pretty complicated thing to grasp after decades of capitalism
All the “guardrails” he was saying was just steering towards socialism unknowing to him claiming it’s still capitalism
Yeah, it seems like he got lost in the definitions and names. He seems to think "anti-capitalism" is "anti-commerce" -- that's just my read on the situation. Like he's using definitions brought to him by the implications in propaganda. I think it'd be super easy to fix that issue with just a quick vocab check at the beginning of any discussion.@@818Kira
@@haleyspencethis is what most people think socialism is. They think having any kind of market, or buying anything or people being successful is capitalism and the lack of those things is socialism . It’s a fundamental lack of knowledge of the terms
@@snapgabwhat did he get wrong, what your definition of socialism
If I was having a conversation with Ethan, I would calmly explain to him what socialism is and what he gets wrong about it. I don’t think we should be jumping down people’s throats because they don’t automatically understand why they’re wrong. We’ve got to start talking to people instead of dismissing them outright.
Vaush fans be like: “Ethan I know you are a capitalist, but here’s the blueprint for how you can agree with everything liberals want while still still claiming yourself as a socialist”
@@donovan4222 That's because the US doesn't even have nationalised healthcare. Workplace democracy is an easy sell too and it's better to push for policy the vast majority of people agree on than jump directly to revolution like some ineffectual anarchists.
@donovan4222 Liberals, famous for wanting the abolition of the Bourgeoisie a class
@minimoose5638 No socialism is when you agree with liberals and not socialists. I am a very smart and nuanced leftist Vaush viewer.
@@donovan4222you are seething, you hate comment under like every vaush video
The innovation talking point has always irked me. With the amount of scientific breakthroughs that happen in university’s and how corporations actually hurt scientific progress with how secretive and protective they are of anything valuable they develop.
Yeah it's flawed logic. But elon boys will never learn.
It’s a view that reduces all human motivations to base greed. To such a person, an artist only cares about selling their work, when in truth monetary concerns is what usually limits them from following their dreams.
I don't think it even necessarily follows that exploitation or slavery can drive rapid expansion and development of infrastructure better than fair wages would. Having a large, healthy, happy labor force is probably going to be more efficient than starving, unhealthy slaves that are overworked to the breaking point. And whatever cost is saved by using cheap/free labor is usually pocketed by the capital owners rather than invested back into the project.
@@SuzakuX ah but what makes you think the capitalist simply wants to return to slavery? They have created happy placid workers in developed nations by feeding them junk food, constant entertainment and the promise of promotion into the managerial class. When these workers notice the rising prices, the capitalists channel the rage into conservative talking points. All things considered, very efficient. Not in producing jobs or innovation or some other capitalist buzzword, but in keeping the cogs running.
Ita flawed because most "innovations" under capitalism are inventing new ways to patent things, changing the aesthetics of products for marketing, etc.
I'll take Ethan's version of Capitalism over half of the Left's Russia-China backing definition of Socialism any day of the week. No question.
Real
✔️
@@TurtleChad1 this feels like a Monty Python sketch response, to the background of Russia shelling Ukraine and China eyeing Taiwan. You can do funnier than that.
@@QosmicVoid what does that have to do with socialism?
@@sanepillow59 the same thing imperialism has to do with capitalism
Ethan is 100% willing to change his mind on this. He even said he’d be open for a discussion/debate on this. I think Vaush could unironically help out here.
It’s been really cool to watch Ethan evolve over the years as he has become more educated. I think in time the misconceptions he has will be cleared up. I’m really grateful he is advocating with genuine a genuine intent and desire to uplift those who need it.
I doubt it. Anyone who still hangs out with Keemstar every week can't have that big a pentiont for reflection.
@@NotoriousLightning do you think ethan hangs out with his ultimate arch nemesis every week?
@@clothmoth I heard they were friends from way back.
@@NotoriousLightning they pretty much always disliked each other, but nowadays ethan considers him to be one of the worst irredeemable human beings on earth and despises him to his core
@@clothmoth There's this guy I know who said they were pals and cohosted a podcast. I don't really know much about Klein, so took his word for it. Maybe he was telling a subtle joke or something.
Vaush really needs to get on the h3h3 podcast.
Need to see him destroy Dan while agreeing with Ethan
@@DawrinChawes Is that important to "destroy" an non-debate-bro leftist? Socialism will never go anywhere if most socialist care about is winning debates against potential allies.
@@xxg6573guilty pleasure
@@xxg6573ngl that nicely packaged tankoid whataboutism from a few days ago about "no one cared about georgia" pissed me off pretty hard 🗿
Debating has become a blood sport to certain sections of the Left in particular
I think even the most well-meaning people like Ethan get caught up in confusing capitalism with mercantileism. They can't imagine a world without commodities and trade, and they think that communism takes that away.
This is why the human nature argument was so bad. It's this underlying thought that capitalism is some underlying human nature, like how people try to act like every little thing humans do is biology, and ignore any social aspects and the relationship between biological and social.
Is free trade an essential part of capitalism?
@@warlordofbritannia when you mean free trade do you mean 0 restrictions on the exports and imports?
@@zkapshthat would be silly if they did because that's never existed ever
@@themightymcb7310 that's the definition of free trade.
Ethan’s genuinely open to changing his mind and learning. I really
Would love to see him and vaush have a chat
"Communism won't work because people are inherently corrupt." Bro, You're advocating for what motivates them to be corrupt in the first place.
Especially because the exact same argument can literally be made for capitalism as well.
It depends, economic systems do not necessarily make someone a good or bad person. What I have seen in socialist history is a lot of people using the working class to install dictatorships. That does not mean that socialist ideas are bad but definitely need to be careful.
Socialist regimes/ "communist" central govts have almost seemed worse in corruption since the still present "greed" can't be legitimately expressed. So they pretend there's no greed while select officials are kleptocrats n amass billions or trade whatever political power they have for material goods- better cars or homes etc. It's very tricky. People will still seek personal advantage in socialist or "communist" systems. Democracy and a constitution that protects rights seems like it MUST be a feature in any decent system.
The Soviet Union and communist China were VERY CORRUPT. It is human nature and not specific to capitalism.
I think a perfect blend of government - free market is what we should strive for. That should be the debate and not completely rewriting the blue prints for society with communism vs hyper capitalism bullshit
No, he is pointing out that communism doesn’t change anything of this specific problem.
Vaush I would love to see you talk to Ethan. I feel like it would be so productive
@carissakeely At the same time though Hasan would probably trash him for talking to a guy him and his community don’t like. I’m not disagreeing with you about him talking to Ethan (that would be great to watch tbh), I’ve been watching Hasan for almost 3 years now and I almost guarantee that’ll generate a negative reaction from his community
@@egm_myles69 Bitch baby Assan might have a tantrum but I honestly wonder if that wouldn't motivate Ethan to set it up more.
@@egm_myles69 Let it.
You need to talk to Ethan because Vaush is lazy and asocial AF.
@@egm_myles69 Vaush's community don't like Hasan, either.
Ethan and Vaush would be a legendary crossover.
People are acting like respectfully disagreeing with Ethan is “dividing the left” and “attacking him” which is such a load of buIIsh!t. I say this as a fan of Ethan and H3.
I know Dan has had a few misses lately, but I have to say, I still have a lot of respect for this man. He generally has a good head on his shoulders and seems to be a genuinely empathetic and compassionate person.
Dan is a good man! When criticizing him it's important to remember that he's not a debater, he wasn't prepared for this discussion, and he's not even an entertainer! He's a sound & lights guy! Of course he's going to have flawed arguments when it comes to socialism vs. capitalism.
Hes a good man, like of course. However, he'll simp for hasan for no reason even if hasan has no idea what he's talking about. It hurts his opinion.
@@truthiz2805 I don’t even think he was simping for Hasan there tbh. A lot of lefties are just bad on foreign policy. In my experience, you’re more likely to see lefties hemming and hawing about Ukraine or Taiwan, than having a solid, consistent, anti imperialist take on them.
I think he's spent a lot of time around and listening to Hasan, and has picked up a lot of Hasan's dumber tendencies and talking points. Almost every time he says something I think is silly I can hear Hasan's voice in my head saying the same thing word for word.
Dan's a good, smart guy who wants to do good and has a few dumb ideas about how to do it. If the world was full of Dans it would be a much better place.
Ethan Vaush content is always top tier
@@Torgan454fake fan. i watch in 0.25x speed
@@handoverthestromboli6715 With pausing every half hour to fully digest his insights
I appreciate the editors putting in the comments. Great job!
Literally! Is that
Something new? I haven’t noticed it before
@@HPLovewrath They've been doing it here and there lately. They might mostly be doing it on main channel and not on Vaush Pit? Not sure about that
Anytime an editor points a finger to the anti-special effects purists they gain my respect.
As an h3 fan, I think it ridiculous that they had keffals on and not vaush.
They like the noodles while neglecting the advocate of horse doodles.
@@TSmith-yy3cc maybe their worst political take
@@TSmith-yy3cc thesis: noodles
antithesis: horse doodles
synthesis: horse noodles
It's important to remember that Dan is debating the merits of capitalism with the guy who signs his checks 💀
I feel like Ethan has the "USSR = Socialism" normie take as well that he can't divorce the concept of markets away from Capitalism.
What surprises me is that Hasan has been around Ethan for over 2 years now and he hasn't been able to convince Ethan of some of the tenants of Socialism
That's because Hasan is terrible at making an argument and ethan is great at it
Almost like he doesn't actually care
I think two years around Hasan might dissuade me from socialism, so I'm not surprised being around him hasn't convinced Ethan.
Why would you feel like that? He never said anything even remotely close to that.
Socialism is when workers own the means of production like factories and manufacturing plants. That's it. If Hasan has never told Ethan that this is socialism, then he's never going to be clear about it with him. Hasan big dummy.
It’s really frustrating that no one is correcting Ethan when he says something like: “oh so the government should just take control of Apple?” The argument that isn’t being made is that the people who work FOR apple should have some sort of democratic control within the company. Ethan’s producer made the democracy argument but didn’t finish it properly
The subtext is Ethan and Hila have two small/medium sized businesses.
They exampled a big company as a starting point but ultimately Ethan is pretty self made. He grew up very poor and only came into money through success on RUclips.
At what point would his business be confiscated from him. That's what he is thinking. It's a non starter argument.
@@hellsjamfleas makes sense
@@hellsjamfleas It's weird though because no one wants them to lose their business for being successful, it's not like Ethan would be taken off his own show if their businesses were democratized
Why wouldn’t the nation own it? Your suggesting that employees would own the company but not all companies are equal. If your an employee at the most successful company wouldn’t that be unfair and create the same problems your saying capitalism creates. Everyone in the nation has to benefit from the companies in the nation for it to be fair
i think we need to give dan some grace bc he was kinda pressured into having this conversation by ethan and hila. could he have done better at debunking ethan’s points as well as defending his own stance? absolutely, but we also need to keep in mind he does not have the same job as vaush or hasan whose careers are built off of defending their positions and using rhetoric to a live audience, he’s literally just a normal guy who happens to be a leftist and a producer on a comedy podcast
he also is talking to his boss
It's definitely not human nature to stomp upon the people who make you your money. That's a huge problem with Ethan's argument.
Are you sure? It happens over and over and over and over again. So often that you could forsure put 2 and 2 together and say it MUST be human nature.
@@MarshmallowMidgets that bc we live in a system that encourages greed and you don't get rich by being nice, if we put two humans in a forest with no motivation from society they will team together and try to survive, humans are inherently sympathetic and have a want to help each other that's why we have come so far collaboration is everything. stop with the doomer shit
@@r.i.pmydog7723 you enjoy your sympathy in fantasy land forrest. I’m just letting you know we all came from the forrest. You’re just born into the system now, but even before these current systems were in place it was human nature to build these hierarchical systems. Even in the forrest. It happened 1000’s of times all over the world. I assume you’re right if the world was just 2 people they would coexist just fine… now imagine it’s 10 people in the forest. Things start to change a little bit, maybe the strongest guy gets to eat more or gets first dibs on what he wants to eat. That can be fair and maybe everyone still gets to eat, whatever. Now imagine it’s 100. Now there’s 10 strong guys who all want first dibs… if you’re the 100th person there might not be any left for you. All it would take is 1 of those 10 guys to take the food from the 100th person before they even have an opportunity to do anything about it. Regardless of if you like it or not some humans are absolute psychos, they will take the food from the 100th without a second thought. Even if all resources in your forest were abundant you think all 100 people are going to team up with eachother? I’m not even trying to be a doomer but if you give it enough time I promise you they would have a full on war. It’s been happening for all of human history.
Literally our human nature is to cooperate for the wellbeing of everyone. That is what made us what we are. I hate that because greed exist is treated like something unstoppable
@@Slashx92 what part of human nature exists when people beat eachother to death?
Capitalism realism really is that book, because people really are more prone to assume the total collapse of society than a world without capitalism. None of the “good” things he attributed to capitalism are inherent to it, but exacerbated by how bad capitalism is at dealing with them.
So is everything socialism capitalism there all incredibly fucked in there own ways and unless y’all want a king or queen non of the problems will ever go away because no one will ever agree on anything ever
I feel like Ethan has a very skewed view of anti capitalist. I mean, he wants to decommodify housing, which is an anti capitalist stance. And like the whole discussion is really dumbed down by creating a binary of "this is capitalism, this is socialism", etc.
Somebody get Vaush on with Ethan
Ask Ethan's team.
honestly i think ethan is a great example of how hasan isn't actually much of a positive force for socialism
Ethan is clearly a guy who can be influenced, but I like that he actually thinks for himself. He doesn't tow the line. I feel like his feels out of place with Hasans dumbfuck politics. He and vaush need to talk.
5 minutes deep and what I'm actually hearing from Ethan is that his metric for success is determined by a capitalist framework, which is to say that money and profit is the one factor that one can use to quantify "success", which isn't actually his fault, it's just that the system in which he operates is a capitalistic one and therefore his frame of reference for this is immediately limited unless he can find the answers elsewhere. It's one of those moments where you don't know to look for a solution because you're not aware there's a problem.
There are other metrics of success, artistic achievement, moral achievements, having a good family or even just numerous offspring (a success metric in evolution), having a great relationship, or even numerous sexual partners, starting a charity, but what if some gladhand and steal others ideas? It gets very tricky. Would a democratically run co-op promote acheiving individuals? Or would they all share equally in profits? That sounds good. In a communist, centraly run govt would an acheiver get fringe benefits or a hero's medal? Gets tricky between here n there. Constitutional amendments to stipulate the co-op structures of business- every business of a certain size, or just all of them? It would take real idealists/ idealogues to get equal ownership of bus enshrined in law/constitution.Many, many execs or arrogant types( rightly or wrongly) would have to agree to have equal shares of their business. Although all would profit from a firm's success. Even then some firms profit alot while some falter. How strong of a tax code would there be so successful firms don't run over the average/ failing firms? Soc democracy seems more tenable than any form of communism. But voluntary wrker co-ops seems great. Or could govt incentivize them thru tax code b4 trying to mandate that structure. Or could SOMEDAY unions demand that? Seems hard to imagine success without metrics of some financial compensation or material benefit ( bigger house, xtra vacation time) etc.
Ethan is pretty much exactly where I was a couple years ago before I heard what I consider 2 main arguments against social democracy:
1. Vaush's point about the whole purpose of a social democracy revolving around holding back the bourgeois without actually dismantling it as a class. As long as they persist as a class you'll get a Reagan and decades of progress will go out the window with a gaining fascist momentum on top
2. Something modern social democratic states are dealing with is their impact on the third world. Their quality of life is good, no doubt about it, but their economies still revolve to a large extent around exploitation of Southeast Asia, Africa etc. Norwegian companies just like American ones jump around country to country looking for states with the worst labor protections to de facto enslave the local population to make cheap shirts
I think if Ethan heard those arguments he wouldn't have much of a defense against them. He won't accept socialism right away as it's reasonable to think you might not know something and maybe economists figured this one out but sooner or later it'll become clear they haven't
If we work hard, Vaush can convince Ethan to go from a liberal, to a liberal who calls himself socialist, like Vaush.
@@donovan4222 1K+ comments on Vaush's channel oof
Don't worry man, life goes on outside the RUclips comment section
@@eragonship4929 ? I’m trying to spread the message
@@eragonship4929not his
@@donovan4222as opposed to a fascist, like all the self-described "communists" out there...
I think people were being a bit unfair to Dan. He wasn't ready for a conversation about capitalism vs. socialism and didn't seem like he wanted to get into it at the beginning, and I thought he did pretty well for someone who doesn't do rhetorics for a living.
Ethan should Crowder hasan on leftovers but with vaush as sam seder.
This is unintelligible without several layers of context, lol
@@gwelwynn it's perfect for everyone in the family to understand and outsiders to not.
Dan is out there doing impossible things. Where would we be without Dan? 😢
Dan's a good man
Dan's the man. I know it can't be easy trying to protect their podcasts from Ethans occasional heated gaming moments 😂
I was so frustrated with chat and the comments after watching this H3 episode live. America has been pushing anti-communist propaganda since the 40s, yet people act like if you don’t completely agree immediately you’re a lost cause. My dad is very similar to Ethan where he’ll get super close to socialist ideas and then get cold feet right at the end because he grew up surrounded by pro-capitalist talking points. Ethan has been getting more and more left-leaning over the past few years, has demonstrated a willingness to not just have conversations but also learn from them, and his knowledge on things like the second bill of rights shows that he does ultimately want a better world. Obviously I would rather he be a full socialist but that doesn’t mean it’s automatically gonna happen, especially if people jump down his throat immediately every time he says something that’s not correct. Also W Dan for being a socialist
My dad is the same. A couple of weeks ago, while rambling about lazy people he came with the amazing solution of having ownership of the business, so your lazyness actually affects you. I was like, bruh your friends argue with me when I say that is a good idea and you say nothing?
Welcome to Tankie Analysis, where the notion "socialism is when government" goes unchallenged and unadressed but Worker Coops are not even mentioned.
the Ethan/Vaush crossover needs to happen!
I didn't follow Vaush before his reaction to Hasan's defences of China's authoritarian opression and hius Taiwan policies.
And given that Hasan has made passing remarks on many other leftie channels not being genuine. I believed Vaush was another mindless leftie.
And I was wrong. Vaush and Keffals have shown actually being reasonable and critical thinking creatoprs, while Hasan argues in bad faith.
Now I'm enjoying Vaush content so much. It's like a breath of fresh air.
Ethan needs the help from someone like Vaush' to help him navigate the left-leaning political space.
Please man, reach out to him. He needs you!
This is like watching two customers argue about how sausages are made and neither of them really know.
My favorite argument against socialism is that it might result in capitalism.
For me it sort of gives the game away
That makes sense to me but how does that argument go?
u have zero basis to make a argument for socialism, U people are progressive in every sense individualist to the tee but stop when it comes to the economic sector. U cannot be a liberal and be a socialist it makes zero sense. Just like how Ben shapiro is a "conservative" but pushes the most progressive economic system then think it wont effect the social fabric of society. Plus u have probably no thought on who or what would replace the the elite class and y they would. what character would they have ?? right now capitalism Values innovation and money seeking more then anything else. U progressive don't value virtues or Moral character.
@@gregoryjones7712 go outside
@@gregoryjones7712 What?
@@gregoryjones7712me when I schizopost
It's extremely difficult to imagine such a radical reorganization of our entire society, and I think that's what keeps many socdems from going all the way left
I'm sympathetic to them. It's not just imagination, it's risk assessment. Revolutions tend to fail.
@@LimeyLassenBut also people won't just revolt because they feel like it. Realistically if a socialist revolution happens in America it won't be because people think communism is a cool idea but because people have gotten so desperate and angry they're left with no choice but to support a revolution.
Whenever I hear about how money inspires people to do things I think about the fact that I have always dreamt of becoming an author. But after working 8 hours and doing daily chores at home I just feel drained. I don't even have a physically demanding job (I work in tech support), but it's very mentally draining. So I never have the energy to write because I have to spend the little free time I have relaxing so I will be ready for work again.
The reason I want to be an author isn't because I want money. I want to create and share stories. And if I didn't need money to survive I would be writing a lot more than I am now.
exactly! capitalism does not motivate people by money they motivate people by death, either you have money or you die, living has a price and if you're poor your shit out of luck. I feel you, I love to paint and I want to make art for no other reason than it makes me happy but if it doesn't make me money I won't have the time or energy because I spend all that on my job. capitalism is all well and good if you are well off but many are a few paychecks, a few mistakes away from homelessness. it is not much of a choice if the other option is not surviving.
@@r.i.pmydog7723and you think in a communist system you would have a life of leisure? Criticise capitalism all you want, if you are successful you can have all the time in the world. That’s not the case ever in communism.
People don’t understand just the level of waste that we have in the USA. I’ve worked in grocery stores I’ve seen the trucks of food that were thrown away daily. I’ve worked in fast food, we had to lock the garbage bins so the homeless people, which there was many, didn’t dumpster dive instead of just GIVING IT TO THEM. During Covid there were videos of farms just dumping trucks of food into landfills because they couldn’t sell them. We have so much waste and if we just distributed some of that out we’d fix the food issue.
I really don't like that H3 cohost ngl, he seems to get really emotional defending certain points
Do you mean Dan? He's the producer.
Hila, Hasan or guests are the co-host
I really feel like pushing the ultimate goal of eliminating the bourgeoisie as a class should be the end goal, and staying capitalist with some SocDem policies will only mitigate their power and influence, not eliminate it. Like Vaush said, what's stopping them from abusing their power to exploit the working class?
Legal protection of unions? Legal protection for workers? The simple premise that is currently unsolvable is the private ownership of property and when it becomes publicly owned and private ownership gets overturned
I fundamentally dislike the whole "greed is just human nature and socialists try to deny it" argument as a defence of capitalism. No socialist will deny that greed is a part of human nature -- we just don't think it's a good idea to base our ENTIRE SOCIETY around it.
Greed, social hierarchies, tribalism... these are ALL part of human nature, but that doesn't make them any more virtuous and worth encouraging, nor any less destructive to human society long-term. An important part of improving humanity's lot is to not only recognise the darker parts of our nature, but to understand that while we will never stamp them out entirely, we should nevertheless endeavour to minimise the influence they have over the societies we create. We owe our descendants no less.
Thank you for this segment, thank you for the way you worded a lot of things, especially about the way the same fundamental problems of capitalism also exist in social democracies. Finland elected a new government earlier this year and things are looking really, really bad. Your explanation made me realize all of this was eventually going to happen in any case and oddly it was calming or atleast lessened my distress to realize that.
Casually saying that he should have the right to be a benevolent dictator to his workers. Being on the better side of wealth inequality rots some people's brain.
I can't respect that.
Ethan like 2 - 3 years was an elon fan and JP guy
It's crazy how fast he's moved further and further left
It's only a matter of time before he starts preaching about the proletariat
I dont like that Ethan keeps saying "Everyone is greedy, so socialism is just gonna destroy itself from this greed" when capitalism is designed to directly feed into that greediness while socialism is meant to mitigate it. No system is perfect and there will always be people who try to game the system but we should strive to mitigate as much as possible instead of letting run rampant
So Ethan Klein is somewhere between market socialist and social democrat, which is honestly pretty based.
The cap isn't billionaire, it's much lower than that.
I think $50m should be a hard cap. It's absurdly wealthy, enough to be wealthy for the rest of your life, your kids and your grandkids lives. While doing *nothing* for the entire 150 years or so of those generations.
I think if you want more than that, then it's not about getting rewarded for your efforts, it's about getting power over other people. And that's not something that society should give as a reward.
Social democracy is based
Not really. It's still capitalism.
@@InfiniteDeckhandHow is socialism better?
@@InfiniteDeckhand It seems to be working pretty well in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Finland. Maybe we should try to catch up to them before we go full socialist revolution. Don’t put the cart before the horse.
@@britishrocklovingyank3491Because it’s a goal that’s completely unattainable in the foreseeable future. And the last thing leftists want is to actually get something accomplished. Why would you ever take action to achieve tangible results when you can just constantly virtue signal about some fairytale pie in the sky ideology?
I gotta disagree with Vaush about greed. It is bad for the human spirit as my man on H3 suggested. Desire and want are different from greed. Greed means at the expense of others like with Healthcare; wanting to exploit someone who is dying for money is greed. Getting a 3 bedroom house and then wanting a renovated kitchen, and then also wanting a new car is not greed it is desire.
I feel like at beginning Ethan could be easily convinced to believe in a market socialism model if someone like Vaush said like two sentences to him.
I don't think Ethan is talking about decommodification of housing, he's simply saying that if you can't afford housing the government will provide you one, just like already is the case in much of Europe.
Isn't that decommification as it is usually discussed? Guaranteed housing, but you can buy something fancier if you want to and can afford to.
How is that not decommodification? Also you will have to expand on the whole some EU countries already provide free housing cuz i have NEVER heard of such a thing.
That's demodification?
Luxury housing is going to always be a thing, people are gonna buy bigger houses. But you aren't FORCED to buy a Mansion. You are FORCRD to buy a standard house.
@@lurkingposter Ok, you may be right. I understood it as decommodifying the entire housing market.
How I want to see Vaush and Ethan debate
it really isn't that complicated. It's literally in the nomenclature. Capitalism cares about the money, socialism cares about the people. Ethan cares about people, but seems to be attached to the wrong nomenclature.
Dan’s takes and the way he explains things to Ethan are always so condescending and come from such an american point of view. He always thinks he’s so right but then fails to explain what he actually stands for. I feel this especially since Hasan joined the podcast, it feels like Dan tries to get approval from him during Leftovers like “yeah Hasan we’re so smart, Ethan has no clue about what we’re talking about”. Also it’s funny the way Dan is always the first one to hate on chat and the audience whenever we have a valid criticism of anything that happens on the show but when it comes to people attacking Ethan over politics, as if Ethan is this right wing fascist just because he isn’t a tankie, when you can see he has good intentions, Dan is so quick to defend chat and say Ethan shouldn’t be shocked by the chat reaction because he said he thinks capitalism is good with moderation as if this is the most unacceptable and extreme view ever. I love H3 and have been watching every week since 2018 but Dan has been getting on my nerves lately. Let’s not even talk about his defense of China and saying we shouldn’t support Ukraine with Hasan on Leftovers.
i mean i was watching this live and ethan and hila literally pressured dan into saying something than got upset when he wasn’t agreeing with them.
It's obvious Dan watches a lot of Hasan, likes what he hears but hasn't thought too deeply about it. Dan comes off very condescending at times and isn't as smart as he thinks he is.
“I don’t agree that workers should own a percentage of the profit but I think you have an obligation to take care of your workers.”
The main problem with this is there is nothing to guarantee they do that. You can have as many government agencies as you want but at the end Fo the day when the cornerstone of the economy driving all of this is “STOCK LINE GO UP!!!” the business owners will ALWAYS find a legal loophole or hire lobbyists to get the government to bend the rules in their favor. And when they don’t they’ll have the troublemaking government employee offed. It’s like Ethan assumes every CEO is a good boss like him.
"You can't live in a society without greed, that's a fairy tale." Yes. But do we have to have a society that INVENTIVIZES greed? That rewards it over any other virtue?
I am a socialist just because of elft influence but an someone here PLEASE explain to me what socialism is and how it solves stuff in Captilism? I REALLY keep trying to find a good answer so that I can get my idea of it straight.
It's just about expanding democracy to work places so they aren't so authoritarian. Workers owning the means of production would be the end goal
To make it as simple as possible, the most core component of socialism is a democratic workplace, so basically workers of a company owning part of the company that they work at, therefore also getting much fairer wages, it would also mean that the workers would democratically vote on their managers/higher ups,
so that is basically what socialism is, HOWEVER most socialist also advocate for other major changes that go hand in hand with socialism, theyre basically inseparable, and the other most crucial issue is decommodification, and what that is is basically the government guaranteeing everyone free housing, healthcare, food, water and education. Theres A LOT more to it, but those are the most important key attributes of what a socialist advocates for.
I feel like Vaush watching and reacting to this was like Walter White screaming in the car
As a massive H3 fan and a avid vaush watcher… PLEASE GO ON THE POD
I can´t blame Ethan, spending that much time around Hasan would probably make me feel the spirit of Ayn Rand and pray to the invisible Hand of the free market as i become the biggest Anti Socialist known to man.
No but in all seriousness I think Ethan is mostly alright. His view on Socialism may be a bit uninformed but if you listen to what he advocates for that´s already more progressive than like 80% of people in the West and I´d rather work with that than with Tankies. Though i actually do think that if someone laid it out to him, he would be more sympathetic towards Socialism, as he already has some pretty leftie ideas.
I think a fault of socialists currently is effectively saying to people who own medium to small sized businesses/ firms “we will take your business.” It’s not a winning message whatsoever, and frankly it’s not feasible, we will always have some sort of mixed system as evidenced by the fact there are still traditional economies. I think the focus should be to focus on presenting a case by case scenario on how to deal with monopolies whether to nationalize, enforce antitrust or force a divestment of the shareholders to guarantee a 51% stake in said company. There should be government programs to also promote co-op formation but it’s not gonna get people like Ethan on board to completely dismantle their entire business formation.
We're not taking anything, we'll stop giving something to them. The only reason why it's possible for a single person to own a business is because the state says so, because the state enforces contracts that make it so.
Why should the state, which insofar as it needs to exist at all should be serving the interests of the general public, actively help a small group of people have a huge amount of power over the economy and exploit workers?
Anyway, what you're talking about isn't a fault of socialists "currently", it's inherent to socialism, if you don't like it then you're just not a socialist.
I think decommodifying food and housing will be very tricky, and it might not improve things everywhere.
However, we can literally decommodify healthcare basically right now.
This is because the regulatory systems that would need to be in place to properly distribute the goods to people already exist for healthcare.
You need to get a prescription, then you have a specific amount that you're entitled to.
So all that really needs to change is how it's funded.
rly wanted to see Vaush on h3, too bad the whole drama happened
I'm on Ethans side but I think him talking to Vaush would but 100x more productive than him talking to Hasan or Dan or his tankie chat about socialism
Yup, as a Hasan fan I 100% agree
1:16 THIS. Ethan and Hasan are so different in their effect on the online Left. Ethan represents a shift from politically tempered pop culture literacy to earnest interest in social causes and class struggle that the general public can relate to. Hasan represents hardlined bad-faith arguments about geopolitical issues that will be harder to change throughout our collective lifetime. A great example is Ethans debates against grifters, which make the right wing look like miserable, hypocritical fools, vs. Hasan's 9/11 stream (on 9/11!) where he reacted to the twin towers being hit like an unaffected rich kid and didn't discourage his chat from VILE "America deserved it" takes.
Which one is better for the (far) Left? Optically, we know which. Ethan pulls people over to the Left efficiently, while Hasan seems to almost want to radicalize Leftists away from their already-held views.
Well put. IMO it's hard to take a leftist really serious that looks at something like 9/11 where tons of innocent human beings die and is not able to see that these are the same kinds people he should advocate protecting for.
Greed is mainly a function of how money functions as capital and the competition that followes from that, there is now greedy human nature.
I’m a foot commander and I’ll put a good word in for Ethan
I hate the “it’s unrealistic so we have to settle for some kind of capitalism” argument because it’s so like obviously short-sighted. Full blown communism is so unrealistic right now because we’re so far into capitalism. The closer u get to something the less unrealistic it seems? Is this not just simple common sense? If America was a SocDem then Socialism would seem more realistic because it would be closer to it. If the US then became Socialist, communism would then seem more realistic… because you’re closer to it…??? Feel like I’m going insane.
I kinda dont hate ethan having these conversations. Yes he needs to do more learning but its a step in the right direction. Everyone gets "radicalized" somehow. Instead of shitting on people i feel encouraging them will get more results. He has made so much progress redirecting his show/audience so far. Lets go!
Ethan is honest about how little he knows, it’s so refreshing and intriguing to see someone basically asking for more information honestly.
@@warlordofbritannia If he knows so little why is he posting videos about it?
@@scambammer6102
Because he wanted to talk about it probably. At least his misguided conceptions are no worse than Vaush’s on Lenin.
Vaush should unironically have a roundtable with ethan and hasan without talking foreign policy until at least the very end lest hasan getting incredibly upset for whatever reason
I hate the way many leftist handle conversations like this, it's so unproductive and unhelpful. Ethan shares a lot of core socialist/leftist values and is way more open minded on this than a lot of people are, but every time he discusses the topic he just gets shit on and called a capitalist pig etc. He's said it himself that the reactions he gets from his audience just makes him not want to even have the conversation anymore. I think you and Ethan would have a very productive conversation and hope that happens someday
The problem with leftist is that a lot of us don’t understand that the socialism debate is too ahead of our time. We won’t have a shift towards socialism in our lifetime. The best we can do is to meet average Americans where they are now which is affordable healthcare, affordable housing, workers rights, etc.
I think a lot of leftists just aren't smart enough to extract the basic human centric values that come from the idea and push those instead of some aesthetic level bs. Hence why Hasan talks about dialectic materialism sometimes.
200 bloody dollars for a simple blood test!? I paid like 7 or 8 euros for that. Not that I didn't know it was bad. Just didn't have any direct things to compare.
I was making a lot of the same capitalist realism arguments before I found you and (*shivers*) NonCompete's videos. I think you can convince him over to socialism. You convinced my stubborn ass.
I really wish we could stop with this capitalism breeds innovation nonsense. Capitalism is risk adverse. Capitalists are inclined to only invest in things that make money. It's the reason every movie is a remake or a sequel nowadays and why we've got 50 copies of the same product for everything.
we must bring word to Ethan: "get Vaush on!"
Sweden is ruled by conservative and liberal sadly. Welfare stat is getting destroyed and they do not care about the climate crises. And not making it better for trans people. So it getting worse here in Sweden 😢
Tho in poll the opposition with social democrats and the left is leading
Same here in Norway. What used to be a social democracy is quickly becoming more neo liberal. And the voters are too unaware to know how them voting for the right hurts them.
50:00 I feel like Vaush himself should be more open to asking. There is nothing wrong with asking to go on a large platform to share your believes.
The electricity was a bad example by Ethan. Electricity was a private venture, it developed into a monopoly. We as a society decided a private enterprise should not have monopolistic control over an essential service so we redefined it as a public utility. Half the problem with these discussions is how historically illiterate everyone is about America and how much they’ve accepted capitalist myths on government and the success of capitalism.
They aren’t. You miss that other countries also exist who went through similar problems and had different solutions they implemented.
Some nationalised the grid, some prevented private ownership of infrastructure, some made nationally owned utilities competing against private enterprises, some made locally owned public utilities while others even made it illegal for private ownership of utilities such as water etc etc.
America isn’t the whole world.
Wapitalism W
Locialism L
You don't understand how either system works, lol.
As an Icelandic Nordic country living Vaushit I would love to see Vaush tear into the Scandinavian countries and ban a bunch of our dumbfucks from the subreddit absolutely love seeing the people who promote myths about how great our country is get absolutely mad. Plz do it! As a Scandinavian I hope you do it!
I got the fury of Hassan fans by liking their disagreement last time. I now know why Hassan is scared of his very own fans lol. We cannot be realistic on the internet we have to go to the extreme left bc that’s internet life.
I absolutely hate the idea of not attempting something because you've predetermined that it isn't possible. It can't be that hard to realize that's a self-fulfilling attitude. You have no way of knowing something isn't possible if you're already set against making an attempt. You can't say socialism isn't attainable when you're literally not even _trying_ to attain it. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
You should talk to him.
There's a difference between rejecting greed-motivated society and being 'monastic'.
I want a convo between Vaush and Ethan sooooo bad
If you define capitalism as "When the bourgeoisie exist", then it's pretty much not good. But if you define it as "When markets exist" it's pretty much always going to be around and has always existed for all of civilization. This is why terms like this are stupid and useless.
There are elements of Capitalist Realism (the idea that Capitalism is inherent to human nature) in Ethan's line of thinking, but to completely dismiss his arguments based on slight disagreements is genuinely absurd. The fact that he's even willing to have someone like Hasan on his programme to have civilized discussions is enough to recognize that he's at least open minded. But then again leftism is just a purity cult nowadays so...
Its not, i live in a deep red area and its republican purity tests all the way down here. Every leftist ive ever met hold a wide range of beliefs and goals. What your experiencing is an echo chamber.
24:34 you just killed the tiger. Or declaw it and remove its fangs. Which would be all the money that they have.