Overpen just reminds me of the USS Johnston, a DD which took heavy shelling, some battleship shells from the Yamato, and still managed to maintain most of it's functionality for hours afterward. Makes them seem more believable in game.
4 года назад+11
This. It’s no less believable than having unlimited ammo, being able to repair ship-wide fires and flooding within seconds, several times in less than 20 minutes, or reloading hundreds of shells into, say, Italian guns without them blowing up. :D
As a counterpoint, consider the time when HMS Warspite basically skewered a German DD at point-blank range, at Narvik. Granted, that particular DD had been "softened up" by a withering barrage from a brace of Tribals that preceded it around the headland. The whole squadron had been warned of the DD's presence by Warspite's floatplane, which had just returned from sinking a U-boat.
@@Kromaatikse Apparently the battle went like "three British ships were able to use their light automatic weapons to silence Erich Koellner's guns and they set her on fire as well as blowing off her bow with a torpedo. The 15-inch (380 mm) semi-armor-piercing shells from Warspite went through the ship without detonating, but visibly tilted her over each time" which may not be a counterpoint, but a point for overpens doing not much damage.
This was all due to overpenetration of AP shells. The Japanese had misidentified the charging destroyer as a cruiser, and this error was not corrected until much later, when the gunners switched to contact fuse HE. The only AP shell that devastated Her struck Her engine and was able to arm and detonate as a result.
The difference in if you get shot through the engine block or turret mounts in WoWs it's still an overpen in the same sense as being shot through the tip of the bow or the superstructure. In real life if you get shot in the engine your done fucked.
I dont mean to be off topic but does someone know of a tool to log back into an Instagram account? I was dumb lost my password. I appreciate any tricks you can give me.
Realism in WOWS? It was never even remotely realistic. It was always an arcade game (like need for speed and such) with arcade arbitrary characteristics that are inspired by real world. I'd liken it to comparing anime and real world. Complaining about it not being realistic is moot, since it was never one of the goals.
@@janhulek785 moreover, not every game has to be realistic. As long is it's fun, I'm cool. WOWs nowadays doesn't seem fun because I've been getting double CV games even at T8 :(
armour scheme or penetration is just a game play mechanism that can be related with reality to provide depth, not to simulate reality. its to give every player a fighting chance. reality would be more like hours of spamming shells and not many of them hitting. or maybe try spin around a few dozens of times before each game to simulate seasickness to boost level of reality of navel combat experience.
We know from the battler of Samar (re Johnson) mentioned by others here included 3 light AC, 2 dd and 3 dd escorts. In this case even the 18" Ap from the Yamoto, went through the DD and AC with, as you note, little damage. The Japanese did not realize the light armor of the ships they were fighting and continue for most of the battler using AP. In this case the ships were riddled with 8" and 18" shell holes, including below the water line but they had little functional effect on the fighting ability of the ships. It was only when some of the Japanese cruisers switched to HE did the Johnson get blown to pieces. From analysis of the US ships that survived, there were a great many AP holes, and even where they ripped through boilers, the lack of shell explosion would not fatally damage the ship (though it would be a shit day for any crew). We also know from this battle that the DD were too low for gun elevation down on some of hte Japanese ships to target, and the large armament could not be used at close range. As an alternative point, the UK used the Tsetse mosquito variant aircraft that had a 6" field gun mounted and was used principally for anti-submarine warfare, though shipping was also a target. In this case the AP shells were principally design to create holes to prevent the submarine from submerging. The pilots would aim for the engine area as this would create a large exit hole as bits of engine would exit the submarine.
I want to add that the damage they did receive other than the gaping holes was overcome because only the automated systems were damaged they were still manually able to steer the rudder, pass powder and shell, etc...
How does a boiler maintain pressure with AP shells holes? I mean sure you could hammer some wedges in but 8" and 18" would be harder to fix as the boiler would be pressurized.
@@mirasolovklose3888 It doesn't maintain pressure. What he's saying is that the damage was localised to knocking out that particular boiler, rather than blowing up the entire midsection of the ship.
@@mirasolovklose3888 It does not, but all military ships have multiple boilers since people keep shooting at them. That is why you see multiple funnels on military ships, they serve different independent propulsion systems. We know the USS Johnson during the battel of Samar was a sitting duck at one point as all its propulsion was knocked out, it the got one boiler working again, and was able to rejoin the fight at reduced power.
@@mirasolovklose3888 when a steam line is severed there isn't much you can do. In The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors they even talk about some of guys that got steamed to death when a line severed that they were standing next to. From what I read, they could manually close steam lines, it was unclear if the steam could be redirected to other lines though.
Aaaaand Flambass needs to read about war on Pacific, where Yamato hit a lot of US cruisers, but there were no explosions due to fact that shells would overpenetrate, come out of a ship and explode somewhere 2 km away. And flooding on ships is a design feature, i mean, the things were designed to stay afloat while flooding. IN FACT! during the battle of Falklands, Sharnhorst ( the og cruiser ) could not raise its turrets high enough and flooded one side to help ( not sure if Falkland, but that time period )
Tier8 belfast is a hunk of junk. If it was russian, it would have 4 torps each side, longer lasting smoke, better acceleration, and better rate of fire, like 7 and a half seconds reload. .. uh ... and a heal!
3:07 to give you an idea of what an Overpen from a 15" gun is you can check the footage of the battle of Punta Stilo available on you tube: 14 dead sailors, a fire and a speed decrease for several minutes necesary to shut down all the steam lines, and this was a chimneys overpen on a decantly sized BB like Cesare... Now immagine what would be like to get 4 large caliber hull overpen on a cruiser 😳
"If this game were realistic, a BB overpen on a DD would be almost catastrophic." BBs firing AP at DDs and a DDE at Samar is why those DDs and DDE kept fighting as long as they did.
Yeah, but a 16" AP shell crashing through your destroyer and leaving 2 great big holes in your ship would probably cause flooding if near the waterline, yet in WoWs an over-pen has almost no effect on your health whatsoever
@@davidandmartinealbon3155 didn’t WOWS have underwater shell hits cause flooding early on? I thought it did, but it was removed because it happened way too often.
Overpens might suck as a game mechanic, they are however a real phenomenon. I remember watching some history documentary about WW2 Tanks with interviews of two sherman tankers and one of them described a severe brown/yellow alert when a Tiger (said the Veteran, I'm fully aware that many Panzer IVs have been misidentified as Tigers and there were also other platforms that sported the dreaded 88 Flak-Cannon) fired at them, hit them and all that happened was that the Tank had now 2 additional ventilation holes, so (iirc) they stopped their Sherman, got out, puked as per regulations, smoked and went on. While I'm almost certain there was some embellishment, I believe the overpen of the german shell (there have been examples of this preserved in some museum or other). So, having a 2 ton battleship shell punching more or less harmlessly through the comparatively flimsy armour of a destroyer, yeah, I think its possible. Is it possible 20 times in a row? Mehhhhh, not so much, even if the shells all punch through, some are bound to take something important with them, even if they do not detonate, not to mention that no matter how good your damage control teams were, a swiss cheese does not ward of water all that well. So I think overpens should stay, but maybe give them a miniscule chance to cause a flood.
To be fair, dds are meant to be overpenned. My father served on a Friesland class dd, and they just had heaps of wood and canvas on board to fix holes. So yes there's some damage, but a lot less than when the fuse sets off. So in my mind that checks out with the wows mechanics of it
If you want to see a historical example of overpens not doing damage to DDs, check out the battle off Samar in which Japanese battleships (including the Yamato) and cruisers kept using armor piercing shells against American DDs and were unable to sink them despite numerous hits. It was only after the Japanese switched to high explosive shells, that they became effective.
@Flambass believe me, irl there were overpens through the whole hull without doing any damage which would have decreased the combat-capability of the ship. Yamato overpenned Japanese CVs without doing sh*t to them, cruisers overpenned DDs, BBs overpenned each other - happened. Just as some shells started fires without exploding or even hitting the said ship (like happened to Graf Spee by the Leander). No matter how ridiculous all that seems, after reading 100s of naval books I can confirm that it makes sense. EDIT: look also the comment from @Serdalis which i somehow overlooked
that roon was streaming with stremloots (or however that site is called) and someone in his stream played the card he can´t touch his keyboard for 2 minutes......... is the best explanation i can come up with
02:00 a hole of caliber diameter can be fixed by a pot or frying pan and a guy who holds it there. For a Yamato shell overpen the cook is needed to place his rear over it.
Talking about overpens being "unrealistic"....read a bit about Taffy 3 and the number of hits (overpens) the 3 Fletcher class DD took from IJN BB and cruisers that for whatever odd reason of perspective thought they were shooting at fleet carriers and cruisers and fired AP instead of HE. Cut those ships into swiss cheese, but without catastrophic damage. Johnston took several hits from BB caliber guns and kept going.
Changing position works. Also, get up and do a few laps of the apt occasionally. Stand up desks can adjust to sitting easily and are not super expensive Been playing PC games for over 20 years lol. 12-hour army vs army BF2 battles were a little crazy with 21CW
1. you're playing an arcade game where ships have health bars. over-penetration is just a game mechanic, if you want more realistic damage modeling then i believe competition has that. 2. as mentioned, during battle of Samar DDs were "over-penetrated" by BB main batteries. DD hulls weren't able to arm AP fuses, so the rounds just went through.
@@truthsRsung in so called real life if entry, exit or both holes would happen below waterline this would be the case. however there are real life examples that this doesn't have to be the case. again - see Battle of Samar. in reality AP rounds could cause flooding, torpedoes could cause fires. near misses could cause structural damage. this however isn't how the game works. in this game a glancing hit (or an "over-penetration") at a rangefinder at the top of a mast will sink your ship if you're on low enough HP.
@@klegdixal3529 ....Something tells me that I don't want to hear what your definition of "so called real life" is, but give it a shot. While you are at it include what sources you are referring to when you say "see Battle of Samar" so I don't have to invent a time machine to see it for myself. I was discussing physics, not WG's creation.
@@truthsRsung i wasn't planning discussing ontology either. stuff you'll find online about the Battle of Samar is referencing either Hornfischer's Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors or Lundgren's World Wonder'd: What Really Happened Off Samar. tho' i seem to remember reading about this battle and that Japanese BBs used AP before realizing the mistake and switching to HE years before these books came out.
You should read "Japanese Destroyer Captain" - something along the lines you described did happen to one of his ships. There were holes in it you could throw a sofa through,.
I’ve said what you said so many times ...if your a cruiser and get hit with 9 (457) guns from 12 km and I get 6 over pens and cruisers just sail away and is like no biggie .... how do so many broadside cruisers survive that 85% of the time ... I almost never get the dev strike I deserve when a cruiser makes a mistake and go full broad In front of me ... I blap him dead Nuts center hull waterline and get no damage 6 k in over pens .... lovely lol
I’m guessing your playing Kremlin in which case. Kremlin’s accuracy decreases rapidly past like 11.5km and Kremlin’s shells have a incredibly high over pen chance because of its insane Penetration. It’s the trade off for actually being able to citadel another Kremlin’s belt.
The Azur Lane Belfast captain on console has a skill that reduces the smoke firing penalty. It's pretty nice. I can't remember what her camp looks like, though.
So, let’s use graf spee as an example. In the first engagement with two British cruiser she was hit 70 times. Overpens maybe seem unreal but in the grand scheme of thing... those ships can take a battering
The fatal damage to the Graf Spee was the food storage and the fuel purification plant. When you can't reliably feed your crew or your engines during a long voyage, you're stuffed.
@@nk_3332 right but the point I was trying to make is being shot a hundred times and still being afloat is a real thing. You’re totally right in your statement in every way don’t get me wrong
I don't necessarily agree with all your criticism of the overpen mechanic. If you put a shell into the hull and it overpens without knocking anything out, it usually means you hit either above the citadel or too far fore or aft. In real life if that happened, it would generally have the effects you described as well as possibly causing flooding if one or both of the holes is at or below the waterline (didn't WOWS have that happen early on but got rid of it because it was excessive?). I have had situations when firing battleship AP at lightly armored cruisers or destroyers where it caused overpen damage but still disabled the engines. As far as the effect of overpenning the power plant, I think that's the effect that makes the most sense as far as the game is concerned.
You can actually get a pretty nice standing desk for around 200 bucks, and amazon delivers where you at for about that price. Going by the amount of donations I see in an average stream, you should be able to easily absorb that cost. Having the option to stand when you want and sit when you want in a convenient way would be good for your health, as well.
IMO, Overpens should have a chance to cause flooding. Have it be a short flood or whatever, but ships don't like having holes in them. It wouldn't be devasting like a torpedo but it still needs to be a thing. AA should be repaired over time as well in my opinion. A second Belfast? Nice. Can't wait for the second Black, Smolensk, etc etc. Realistic? Not even close. Maybe the ship designs but that's it. It's an arcade game.
People quoting realism is so frustrating. If you wanted a realistic game. A destroyer would be visible across the map. And ships don't dissapear at a specific distance. I love warships and have played it since it was first released. But not once have I considered it realistic.
@@PolarisIII Shell impact could cause enough displacement in the water to rock smaller DDS and break their hull. Thats also only if the shell doesn't detonate under the destroy which could also be very fatal.
Hopefully War Thunder catches up soon. They are finally releasing BBs so that's something. You can also play Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts which is a single player game but far more realistic than WoWs.
I put my perm camo from the Halloween event on my BB Mass. Don't regret it, it looks great. IDK why anyone would put a perm camo on a non-premium ship though.
I have the original and I don`t think I will be getting the 43 unless it comes in a crate or something. I imagine folks will do ok in the 43 but even with torps that ship is underpowered for tier 10 engagements. I have engaged several of these while in a BB and once pushed they have to run or die. The torpedo threat is not enough, the 43 lacks the alpha strike to be scary. I have yet to engage one in a gun boat DD but I imagine the 43 will have circles ran around it with the nerfed reload and slow shells.
I am not going to go on about all the overpens that people are bringing up historically but as can be seen by those examples but I will say WoWS is rather generous with where it allows overpens, for example if you go through the historical examples there are none of BB vs BB upper belt overpens which the game allows, same for CR vs CR. The second is the game doesn't simulate a large number of the things that would get damaged by an overpen, such a fuel tanks or allow overpens that exit below the waterline (mainly bow and stern hits where the all or nothing armour scheme is in place) to cause flooding.
Having just "WON" a Belfast 43 in a loot crate instead of the Maya I wanted, I'm leaving this comment 2 years on. Thanks, and a Merry Christmas, Flambass.
The French Song? Does it start out like... "SURRENDER, SURRENDER, SURRENDER! Mon amis we must surrender! Quickly before they can hurt us! For all of us are in grave danger! Quickly now we must capitulate!
Here I am trying to get 2000 base XP per battle. Flambass gets 2800 base xp and its only OK? Stop making the rest of us look bad. Keep up the great work.
If this game was realistic battleships wouldn’t hit the broadside of a barn at anything past 15km Same kinda goes for cruisers Not to mention the infinity torpedos dds carry and aircraft cvs carry Didn’t know they had small manufacturing plants on ships
When in a carrier Match first thing you have to ASK is : who has the BOT/NOOB carrier . Watch the carriers who playing to win and who playing FOR HIS SCORE
Yeah but a ship can have 5hp left and STILL have all main guns ok and deal full damage output. They should take it down as damage increases. So lose 25% hp your damage drops by 25% and so on.
reasons I quit. 1. the wiki mentions that View is based on Line of sight, but its not. They can be viewed if your team mate see's them, Which, IMO, should be a Shadow display until you have true visual. 2. Over pen? is when an object passes thru in such a way it causes Little to no Major damage. There was an old myth, passed around about HOW a bullet did not travel very far in water. THAT IS BS. It can travel pretty well. Even your own ammo should be able to pass thru a good amount of water and IMPACT Under the water line and cause damage. And DD love to Aim like this as its the only way to get Much damage INSIDE the ship, other wise Run away. It would be interesting to have a line of TANKS Shoot at a Ship and see how and where they need to hit to cause damage. Tanks have interesting ammo compared to ships(at least in the beginning) And the numbers WOWS gives for ship armor, is Scary as just about Any tank with high velocity ammo could put hole all over it.
Yep, can confirm: games that are a bit more realistic in certain mechanics can't exist - you have to make a radical life choice to have any chance of experiencing something in a slightly realistic way
World of Warships is an arcade game... It'll do things that don't realistically make sense for gameplay reasons. Soz Flambino, I hate the overpen mechanic as much as anyone but that would be the 'why'
WG were so terrified of bringing Belfast back into the game that they nerfed her T8 version pretty damn hard. In all honesty, I think simply grabbing the T7 Belfast as is and then dropping her into T8 would have been fine. The smoke radar combo is nowhere near as strong at T8 as the enemy team will also have a ton of radar ... and with poor armor and no heal, she's really very dead if caught in her smoke. Not like EZ mode T7 Belfast. By the way, do you think you'll ever do a Z-35 video or review? I think you are strongest at playing DDs, so your opinion would matter a lot.
Exactly, and considering that Russian ships and their bullshit 12km radar range are everywhere makes the Belfast's gimmick even weaker. Also, why the hell is Belfast 43's modernized AA weaker than the OG Belfast?
Unfortunately I'm watching this video now, but but it's maybe a best time now, because I'm pissed off by that rng now... Few days I've been hitting overpens to Iowa Musashi GK !!!! WG is really trying hard to chase us of the game after god knows how many hours of playing it.
so its not bad but not very good either. In other words it is balanced. I dont get why this time people are complaining about not getting another OP smoke HE spammer.
When people complain about something being dumb and unrealistic in this game I'm almost just like, "what about literally everything else...?" lol. The closest this game gets to realism is that things that look like ships move on something that looks like water and they shoot things, but after that it's pretty much wargamemoo improv :^) Plenty of the concessions to realism are understandable so they can make a fun game, but a fuck load of it seems really arbitrary
Well, regarding this realism / effects of overpen mechanics.....if you call it questionable regarding the effects on a ship, speaking about damaging engines, turrets, and so on , and you want more realism....you also consider that the numbers of hits in a battle is far from realism as well, right? Then this also needs to be adjusted. Otherwise, with this unrealistic high number of hits per salvos, after a few minutes, every ship is about to be totally incapacitated and we have a harmless fleet everywhere? ....for me...yeah it is still a mixed bag of a small portion realism ( quite small) and a hughe chunk of Arcade.....and it is ok. Regarding overpen mechanics....not speaking about CV mechanics, submarines,......but well...this gets boring to talk about. - Hamster Wheel -
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Overpen just reminds me of the USS Johnston, a DD which took heavy shelling, some battleship shells from the Yamato, and still managed to maintain most of it's functionality for hours afterward. Makes them seem more believable in game.
This. It’s no less believable than having unlimited ammo, being able to repair ship-wide fires and flooding within seconds, several times in less than 20 minutes, or reloading hundreds of shells into, say, Italian guns without them blowing up. :D
As a counterpoint, consider the time when HMS Warspite basically skewered a German DD at point-blank range, at Narvik. Granted, that particular DD had been "softened up" by a withering barrage from a brace of Tribals that preceded it around the headland. The whole squadron had been warned of the DD's presence by Warspite's floatplane, which had just returned from sinking a U-boat.
@@Kromaatikse Apparently the battle went like "three British ships were able to use their light automatic weapons to silence Erich Koellner's guns and they set her on fire as well as blowing off her bow with a torpedo. The 15-inch (380 mm) semi-armor-piercing shells from Warspite went through the ship without detonating, but visibly tilted her over each time" which may not be a counterpoint, but a point for overpens doing not much damage.
This was all due to overpenetration of AP shells. The Japanese had misidentified the charging destroyer as a cruiser, and this error was not corrected until much later, when the gunners switched to contact fuse HE. The only AP shell that devastated Her struck Her engine and was able to arm and detonate as a result.
The difference in if you get shot through the engine block or turret mounts in WoWs it's still an overpen in the same sense as being shot through the tip of the bow or the superstructure. In real life if you get shot in the engine your done fucked.
omg those torps, that face and the "nailed it" had me crying
I bet n
I dont mean to be off topic but does someone know of a tool to log back into an Instagram account?
I was dumb lost my password. I appreciate any tricks you can give me.
@Miles Ty instablaster :)
Not a yolo on that Roon, that was a "Get down Mr. President" for the DD in the cap
I'm on the Roon right now and it absolutely pisses me off that the rear turrets aren't 360 degrees like it's T5/6 predecessors.
I think realism in wows went out the door ever since radar went through islands
Realism in WOWS? It was never even remotely realistic. It was always an arcade game (like need for speed and such) with arcade arbitrary characteristics that are inspired by real world. I'd liken it to comparing anime and real world. Complaining about it not being realistic is moot, since it was never one of the goals.
@@janhulek785 moreover, not every game has to be realistic. As long is it's fun, I'm cool. WOWs nowadays doesn't seem fun because I've been getting double CV games even at T8 :(
@@janhulek785 it is about suspension of disbelief. Too much shit makes a fantasy movie into a b series horror
Radar? Hydro has been working through islands before radar was even conceived.
armour scheme or penetration is just a game play mechanism that can be related with reality to provide depth, not to simulate reality. its to give every player a fighting chance. reality would be more like hours of spamming shells and not many of them hitting. or maybe try spin around a few dozens of times before each game to simulate seasickness to boost level of reality of navel combat experience.
No one:
Literally, literally no one:
Belfast: *Good morning, Miss Enterprise*
Enterprise: Oh no........
@@Dcarp7 "here we go again..."
We know from the battler of Samar (re Johnson) mentioned by others here included 3 light AC, 2 dd and 3 dd escorts. In this case even the 18" Ap from the Yamoto, went through the DD and AC with, as you note, little damage. The Japanese did not realize the light armor of the ships they were fighting and continue for most of the battler using AP. In this case the ships were riddled with 8" and 18" shell holes, including below the water line but they had little functional effect on the fighting ability of the ships. It was only when some of the Japanese cruisers switched to HE did the Johnson get blown to pieces.
From analysis of the US ships that survived, there were a great many AP holes, and even where they ripped through boilers, the lack of shell explosion would not fatally damage the ship (though it would be a shit day for any crew).
We also know from this battle that the DD were too low for gun elevation down on some of hte Japanese ships to target, and the large armament could not be used at close range.
As an alternative point, the UK used the Tsetse mosquito variant aircraft that had a 6" field gun mounted and was used principally for anti-submarine warfare, though shipping was also a target. In this case the AP shells were principally design to create holes to prevent the submarine from submerging. The pilots would aim for the engine area as this would create a large exit hole as bits of engine would exit the submarine.
I want to add that the damage they did receive other than the gaping holes was overcome because only the automated systems were damaged they were still manually able to steer the rudder, pass powder and shell, etc...
How does a boiler maintain pressure with AP shells holes? I mean sure you could hammer some wedges in but 8" and 18" would be harder to fix as the boiler would be pressurized.
@@mirasolovklose3888 It doesn't maintain pressure. What he's saying is that the damage was localised to knocking out that particular boiler, rather than blowing up the entire midsection of the ship.
@@mirasolovklose3888 It does not, but all military ships have multiple boilers since people keep shooting at them. That is why you see multiple funnels on military ships, they serve different independent propulsion systems. We know the USS Johnson during the battel of Samar was a sitting duck at one point as all its propulsion was knocked out, it the got one boiler working again, and was able to rejoin the fight at reduced power.
@@mirasolovklose3888 when a steam line is severed there isn't much you can do. In The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors they even talk about some of guys that got steamed to death when a line severed that they were standing next to.
From what I read, they could manually close steam lines, it was unclear if the steam could be redirected to other lines though.
Aaaaand Flambass needs to read about war on Pacific, where Yamato hit a lot of US cruisers, but there were no explosions due to fact that shells would overpenetrate, come out of a ship and explode somewhere 2 km away. And flooding on ships is a design feature, i mean, the things were designed to stay afloat while flooding. IN FACT! during the battle of Falklands, Sharnhorst ( the og cruiser ) could not raise its turrets high enough and flooded one side to help ( not sure if Falkland, but that time period )
USS Texas did that during the Normandy invasion, when the front lines exceeded the normal gunnery range inland.
Tier8 belfast is a hunk of junk. If it was russian, it would have 4 torps each side, longer lasting smoke, better acceleration, and better rate of fire, like 7 and a half seconds reload.
.. uh ... and a heal!
Can't forget thicker armour and and faster (900m/s+) shell ballistics.
Icebreaker bow!
#BringBackTheKutuzov
3:07 to give you an idea of what an Overpen from a 15" gun is you can check the footage of the battle of Punta Stilo available on you tube: 14 dead sailors, a fire and a speed decrease for several minutes necesary to shut down all the steam lines, and this was a chimneys overpen on a decantly sized BB like Cesare... Now immagine what would be like to get 4 large caliber hull overpen on a cruiser 😳
It would annihilate the poor ship.
"If this game were realistic, a BB overpen on a DD would be almost catastrophic." BBs firing AP at DDs and a DDE at Samar is why those DDs and DDE kept fighting as long as they did.
Yeah, but a 16" AP shell crashing through your destroyer and leaving 2 great big holes in your ship would probably cause flooding if near the waterline, yet in WoWs an over-pen has almost no effect on your health whatsoever
@@davidandmartinealbon3155 didn’t WOWS have underwater shell hits cause flooding early on? I thought it did, but it was removed because it happened way too often.
@@Metal_Auditor Hmm, I don't know, it might have done
is this now a "stand up comedy show"? :o)))
Overpens might suck as a game mechanic, they are however a real phenomenon. I remember watching some history documentary about WW2 Tanks with interviews of two sherman tankers and one of them described a severe brown/yellow alert when a Tiger (said the Veteran, I'm fully aware that many Panzer IVs have been misidentified as Tigers and there were also other platforms that sported the dreaded 88 Flak-Cannon) fired at them, hit them and all that happened was that the Tank had now 2 additional ventilation holes, so (iirc) they stopped their Sherman, got out, puked as per regulations, smoked and went on. While I'm almost certain there was some embellishment, I believe the overpen of the german shell (there have been examples of this preserved in some museum or other).
So, having a 2 ton battleship shell punching more or less harmlessly through the comparatively flimsy armour of a destroyer, yeah, I think its possible. Is it possible 20 times in a row? Mehhhhh, not so much, even if the shells all punch through, some are bound to take something important with them, even if they do not detonate, not to mention that no matter how good your damage control teams were, a swiss cheese does not ward of water all that well. So I think overpens should stay, but maybe give them a miniscule chance to cause a flood.
To be fair, dds are meant to be overpenned. My father served on a Friesland class dd, and they just had heaps of wood and canvas on board to fix holes. So yes there's some damage, but a lot less than when the fuse sets off. So in my mind that checks out with the wows mechanics of it
If you want to see a historical example of overpens not doing damage to DDs, check out the battle off Samar in which Japanese battleships (including the Yamato) and cruisers kept using armor piercing shells against American DDs and were unable to sink them despite numerous hits. It was only after the Japanese switched to high explosive shells, that they became effective.
@Flambass believe me, irl there were overpens through the whole hull without doing any damage which would have decreased the combat-capability of the ship.
Yamato overpenned Japanese CVs without doing sh*t to them, cruisers overpenned DDs, BBs overpenned each other - happened.
Just as some shells started fires without exploding or even hitting the said ship (like happened to Graf Spee by the Leander).
No matter how ridiculous all that seems, after reading 100s of naval books I can confirm that it makes sense.
EDIT: look also the comment from @Serdalis which i somehow overlooked
The over pen just took out 50 feet of lunch line.
ooooooh I saw that choker on the camo and I knew exactly where it was from, lol
that roon was streaming with stremloots (or however that site is called) and someone in his stream played the card he can´t touch his keyboard for 2 minutes......... is the best explanation i can come up with
02:00 a hole of caliber diameter can be fixed by a pot or frying pan and a guy who holds it there. For a Yamato shell overpen the cook is needed to place his rear over it.
Laughed a little harder than expected at “ Nailed it”.
27:30 is gold
"Do it again, resub 3 more times, I'll give you the money, just give me the map."
flambass in the second match: do not question the elevated one
Talking about overpens being "unrealistic"....read a bit about Taffy 3 and the number of hits (overpens) the 3 Fletcher class DD took from IJN BB and cruisers that for whatever odd reason of perspective thought they were shooting at fleet carriers and cruisers and fired AP instead of HE. Cut those ships into swiss cheese, but without catastrophic damage. Johnston took several hits from BB caliber guns and kept going.
that guy calling the "hacks" has 1600pr and 54% winrate at 4k+ games. wtf is wrong with people?
imho there are a lot of viewers "accidently" join the game. Some are jsut trolling cause they wanna hear Flambino rage^^
Changing position works. Also, get up and do a few laps of the apt occasionally.
Stand up desks can adjust to sitting easily and are not super expensive
Been playing PC games for over 20 years lol. 12-hour army vs army BF2 battles were a little crazy with 21CW
1. you're playing an arcade game where ships have health bars. over-penetration is just a game mechanic, if you want more realistic damage modeling then i believe competition has that.
2. as mentioned, during battle of Samar DDs were "over-penetrated" by BB main batteries. DD hulls weren't able to arm AP fuses, so the rounds just went through.
So you are saying an over -pen from a BB is JUST a 14 to 20" hole completely thru the vessel at sea spewing seawater back in like a slit artery?
@@truthsRsung
in so called real life if entry, exit or both holes would happen below waterline this would be the case. however there are real life examples that this doesn't have to be the case. again - see Battle of Samar.
in reality AP rounds could cause flooding, torpedoes could cause fires. near misses could cause structural damage. this however isn't how the game works.
in this game a glancing hit (or an "over-penetration") at a rangefinder at the top of a mast will sink your ship if you're on low enough HP.
@@klegdixal3529 ....Something tells me that I don't want to hear what your definition of "so called real life" is, but give it a shot.
While you are at it include what sources you are referring to when you say "see Battle of Samar" so I don't have to invent a time machine to see it for myself.
I was discussing physics, not WG's creation.
@@truthsRsung i wasn't planning discussing ontology either.
stuff you'll find online about the Battle of Samar is referencing either Hornfischer's Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors or Lundgren's World Wonder'd: What Really Happened Off Samar.
tho' i seem to remember reading about this battle and that Japanese BBs used AP before realizing the mistake and switching to HE years before these books came out.
You should read "Japanese Destroyer Captain" - something along the lines you described did happen to one of his ships. There were holes in it you could throw a sofa through,.
I’ve said what you said so many times ...if your a cruiser and get hit with 9 (457) guns from 12 km and I get 6 over pens and cruisers just sail away and is like no biggie .... how do so many broadside cruisers survive that 85% of the time ... I almost never get the dev strike I deserve when a cruiser makes a mistake and go full broad In front of me ... I blap him dead Nuts center hull waterline and get no damage 6 k in over pens .... lovely lol
I’m guessing your playing Kremlin in which case. Kremlin’s accuracy decreases rapidly past like 11.5km and Kremlin’s shells have a incredibly high over pen chance because of its insane Penetration. It’s the trade off for actually being able to citadel another Kremlin’s belt.
Yes overpens below the waterline should have a chance to flood I thought I was the only one
The Azur Lane Belfast captain on console has a skill that reduces the smoke firing penalty. It's pretty nice. I can't remember what her camp looks like, though.
Wargaming:Belfast 43 is not to OP ! Look at this armor !
Flambass: *sips tea* « Hold my torp »
So, let’s use graf spee as an example. In the first engagement with two British cruiser she was hit 70 times. Overpens maybe seem unreal but in the grand scheme of thing... those ships can take a battering
The fatal damage to the Graf Spee was the food storage and the fuel purification plant. When you can't reliably feed your crew or your engines during a long voyage, you're stuffed.
@@nk_3332 right but the point I was trying to make is being shot a hundred times and still being afloat is a real thing. You’re totally right in your statement in every way don’t get me wrong
I don't necessarily agree with all your criticism of the overpen mechanic. If you put a shell into the hull and it overpens without knocking anything out, it usually means you hit either above the citadel or too far fore or aft. In real life if that happened, it would generally have the effects you described as well as possibly causing flooding if one or both of the holes is at or below the waterline (didn't WOWS have that happen early on but got rid of it because it was excessive?).
I have had situations when firing battleship AP at lightly armored cruisers or destroyers where it caused overpen damage but still disabled the engines. As far as the effect of overpenning the power plant, I think that's the effect that makes the most sense as far as the game is concerned.
You can actually get a pretty nice standing desk for around 200 bucks, and amazon delivers where you at for about that price. Going by the amount of donations I see in an average stream, you should be able to easily absorb that cost. Having the option to stand when you want and sit when you want in a convenient way would be good for your health, as well.
Read Neptune's Inferno and The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors for some shell damage descriptions. The carnage described is almost unbelievable.
Flambass, they do make standing desks. For your health, look into it.
IMO,
Overpens should have a chance to cause flooding. Have it be a short flood or whatever, but ships don't like having holes in them. It wouldn't be devasting like a torpedo but it still needs to be a thing.
AA should be repaired over time as well in my opinion.
A second Belfast? Nice. Can't wait for the second Black, Smolensk, etc etc.
Realistic? Not even close. Maybe the ship designs but that's it. It's an arcade game.
Just great your videos, Greetz from Germany!
People quoting realism is so frustrating. If you wanted a realistic game. A destroyer would be visible across the map. And ships don't dissapear at a specific distance. I love warships and have played it since it was first released. But not once have I considered it realistic.
Armor should really reduced the shell velocity while in the ship. The shells would realistically slow down when hitting armor
Most battleship calibres, and especially 16inch+ have enough velocity that even a near miss could be devastating to a destroyer.
????
That doesn't even sound remotely reasonable
@@PolarisIII Shell impact could cause enough displacement in the water to rock smaller DDS and break their hull. Thats also only if the shell doesn't detonate under the destroy which could also be very fatal.
It’s an arcade game I don’t expect anything from wg but if you want the closest thing to what your talking about war thunder your game my friend
Hopefully War Thunder catches up soon. They are finally releasing BBs so that's something. You can also play Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts which is a single player game but far more realistic than WoWs.
I put my perm camo from the Halloween event on my BB Mass. Don't regret it, it looks great. IDK why anyone would put a perm camo on a non-premium ship though.
Unless you REALLY like that non-premium ship and are going to play it a lot.
Over Pens. Read the WWII story of the Battle of Samar and Taffy 3. Lots of over pens from big guns and real recounts of what that did
I have the original and I don`t think I will be getting the 43 unless it comes in a crate or something. I imagine folks will do ok in the 43 but even with torps that ship is underpowered for tier 10 engagements. I have engaged several of these while in a BB and once pushed they have to run or die. The torpedo threat is not enough, the 43 lacks the alpha strike to be scary. I have yet to engage one in a gun boat DD but I imagine the 43 will have circles ran around it with the nerfed reload and slow shells.
I am not going to go on about all the overpens that people are bringing up historically but as can be seen by those examples but I will say WoWS is rather generous with where it allows overpens, for example if you go through the historical examples there are none of BB vs BB upper belt overpens which the game allows, same for CR vs CR. The second is the game doesn't simulate a large number of the things that would get damaged by an overpen, such a fuel tanks or allow overpens that exit below the waterline (mainly bow and stern hits where the all or nothing armour scheme is in place) to cause flooding.
Having just "WON" a Belfast 43 in a loot crate instead of the Maya I wanted, I'm leaving this comment 2 years on. Thanks, and a Merry Christmas, Flambass.
About the problem sitting for too long, Flambino, you could ask Circonflexes (wot youtuber) cause he had the same problem, apparently resolved
In reality, Yes, overpens may lead to flooding like what Prince of Whales did to Bismark.
The French Song? Does it start out like... "SURRENDER, SURRENDER, SURRENDER! Mon amis we must surrender! Quickly before they can hurt us! For all of us are in grave danger! Quickly now we must capitulate!
i have an adjustable desk. cost a lot but worth every penny. i hardly ever sit any more
I definitely agree ref the overpen.
Azur lane jumps in says: JUST A MAID PASSING BY
That moment when you gut punch an asshole and realize your chick swung her purse at his head. Freindly torp dilemma.....
Review underwater photos of ships sunk by shell fire. How many over-pen exit holes do you see?
Here I am trying to get 2000 base XP per battle.
Flambass gets 2800 base xp and its only OK?
Stop making the rest of us look bad.
Keep up the great work.
0:00 let's be reasonable: overpens suck, but at least they do it for free
If this game was realistic battleships wouldn’t hit the broadside of a barn at anything past 15km
Same kinda goes for cruisers
Not to mention the infinity torpedos dds carry and aircraft cvs carry
Didn’t know they had small manufacturing plants on ships
AGAIN.. about to finally go to bed and you just HAVE to upload a video... guess im not sleeping yet lol
09:52 He "surely DO" knew their range
Standing desks that sits on your desk. Also is that a Dell keyboard?
When in a carrier Match first thing you have to ASK is : who has the BOT/NOOB carrier . Watch the carriers who playing to win and who playing FOR HIS SCORE
Ah man, I was hoping Belfast 43 was going to be a good boat.
But, dang, Belfast's Azur Lane camo looks good. But, not as good my Hipper's camo.😁
There are kneeling chairs you can get.
hmm, like flambass couldn't afford a standing desk, they start at around £180 going up to around £500
Yeah but a ship can have 5hp left and STILL have all main guns ok and deal full damage output. They should take it down as damage increases. So lose 25% hp your damage drops by 25% and so on.
I am excited, finally got my Agir!
The only realistic thing in wow is that CVS and submarines are op
reasons I quit.
1. the wiki mentions that View is based on Line of sight, but its not. They can be viewed if your team mate see's them, Which, IMO, should be a Shadow display until you have true visual.
2. Over pen? is when an object passes thru in such a way it causes Little to no Major damage. There was an old myth, passed around about HOW a bullet did not travel very far in water. THAT IS BS. It can travel pretty well. Even your own ammo should be able to pass thru a good amount of water and IMPACT Under the water line and cause damage. And DD love to Aim like this as its the only way to get Much damage INSIDE the ship, other wise Run away.
It would be interesting to have a line of TANKS Shoot at a Ship and see how and where they need to hit to cause damage. Tanks have interesting ammo compared to ships(at least in the beginning) And the numbers WOWS gives for ship armor, is Scary as just about Any tank with high velocity ammo could put hole all over it.
Dropping into the top deck, and getting an over pen, is abit stupid.
With the bullet and water, they are talking about subsonic speed. Subsonic bullets fragments after 2-3 feet (about 90cm)
Mythbusters did a whole thing about bullets underwater. They dont travel very far before fragmenting
@@icemanpain part of that problem is Lead bullets, they Shatter, Flatted, do lots of thigs that dont keep their shapes.
Diff from a 30-06 and a 30-30
Dude, I wish people played this bad when facing me.
Its a game...you want realism? Join the navy
Yep, can confirm: games that are a bit more realistic in certain mechanics can't exist - you have to make a radical life choice to have any chance of experiencing something in a slightly realistic way
World of Warships is an arcade game...
It'll do things that don't realistically make sense for gameplay reasons.
Soz Flambino, I hate the overpen mechanic as much as anyone but that would be the 'why'
Overpens are real. Do you even ship ? Also it's not like they do no damage. They do 10% of what shell exploding inside would do.
WG were so terrified of bringing Belfast back into the game that they nerfed her T8 version pretty damn hard. In all honesty, I think simply grabbing the T7 Belfast as is and then dropping her into T8 would have been fine. The smoke radar combo is nowhere near as strong at T8 as the enemy team will also have a ton of radar ... and with poor armor and no heal, she's really very dead if caught in her smoke. Not like EZ mode T7 Belfast.
By the way, do you think you'll ever do a Z-35 video or review? I think you are strongest at playing DDs, so your opinion would matter a lot.
Exactly, and considering that Russian ships and their bullshit 12km radar range are everywhere makes the Belfast's gimmick even weaker. Also, why the hell is Belfast 43's modernized AA weaker than the OG Belfast?
@@ryanbrochu3336 OG Belfast is the 1957 version. The one we just got is the 1943 version.
@@Jackie_Hiero Then that makes the Belfast 43 an even bigger POS.
If you know what is your roll with the B43, is a good ship. (Yes i'm saying good, not the best)
I made a standup desk from ikea parts for $22AUD, yeah it sits on the table, and I now only eat horse meatballs...
Damn I love being early. Love your content Flambino, keep that up!
Is IFHE still worth it on the Tier 7 Belfast?
If you want what Flambass misses, go and play War Grinder.
Flambass get a stand up desk!
How about your battleship get its historical 5% hit rate back, since we really want to argue "realism" in a game where ships have hp bars
Get a massage table so you can play lying on your belly.
Unfortunately I'm watching this video now, but but it's maybe a best time now, because I'm pissed off by that rng now... Few days I've been hitting overpens to Iowa Musashi GK !!!! WG is really trying hard to chase us of the game after god knows how many hours of playing it.
-Realism
-weegee
Pick one
hey buddy check out a Kinn chair from Autonomous. edit: after watching for a bit longer may I also suggest a standing desk from Autonomous lolol.
May I request you to play Roon?
Overpens need to do something more
Hello, Twitch! :)
so its not bad but not very good either. In other words it is balanced. I dont get why this time people are complaining about not getting another OP smoke HE spammer.
belfast t7 camo is from azur lane
it took you 1 minute to do the dmg it took you almost 7 toget in the 43 lol yeah there clearly is no difference between the two :)
3.6 of 5 is not mediocre ;)
When people complain about something being dumb and unrealistic in this game I'm almost just like, "what about literally everything else...?" lol. The closest this game gets to realism is that things that look like ships move on something that looks like water and they shoot things, but after that it's pretty much wargamemoo improv :^) Plenty of the concessions to realism are understandable so they can make a fun game, but a fuck load of it seems really arbitrary
Personally I will stick to Edinburgh
Well, regarding this realism / effects of overpen mechanics.....if you call it questionable regarding the effects on a ship, speaking about damaging engines, turrets, and so on , and you want more realism....you also consider that the numbers of hits in a battle is far from realism as well, right? Then this also needs to be adjusted. Otherwise, with this unrealistic high number of hits per salvos, after a few minutes, every ship is about to be totally incapacitated and we have a harmless fleet everywhere? ....for me...yeah it is still a mixed bag of a small portion realism ( quite small) and a hughe chunk of Arcade.....and it is ok. Regarding overpen mechanics....not speaking about CV mechanics, submarines,......but well...this gets boring to talk about. - Hamster Wheel -
Time to play war thunder then. 🙃
Are both belfasts at the wrong tier??
Just say git gud to hacker baby
It's a game ffs, pen, non pen !!!! really.....GAME