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Completely by accident I experienced very strong almost overwhelming pitti on my 1st silent retreat. I felt as though I was floating and every cell in my body was vibrating and ringing. I felt so refreshed and so happy for weeks after. It was mind blowing. The next retreat I went on I also experienced it but it wasn't overwhelming which was good as the previous experience was a bit too much and caused me insomnia. This was about 8 years ago. It was enough to cause me to commit to practising for life. Insight meditation and Buddhism is my life now. Recently I've been listening to Leigh Brassington and meditating 2-3 hours a day at home to try and bring about the conditions for the jhanas again. I am feeling some very mild buzzing sensation so far. It's very difficult to be aware of but not craving it too much. It seems that it's not about trying to get anything but more about completely letting go at which point you slip into it.
I had a similar situation, I achieved a state that was so pleasant, but like everything it was impermanent. If you want to be given everything, you have to give everything up. You can become attached to these states, and craving them is real, as these states are better than the strongest drugs, sweeter than the finest fruits, brighter than the nearest stars.
How deep? As deep as possible. Dont be afraid to let your mind keep sinking down into Samadhi; it cant drown down there in the deep, it can only rest.❤️
Great video and discussion! I have no strong opinion as to how important they are in ones buddhist practice but I will say from my personal experience that "entering" these states (at least I believe I did, but I found out afterwards reading buddhist litterature that they are Jhanas) was one of the most profound, you could even say life altering experiences in my practice. The pleasure/joy I experienced when in these states is really unmatched compared to physical or emotional pleasures or states I've encountered in the "normal world". Most importantly, what it did for me, was that it opened my mind to the fact that there are states of consciousness that I was completely ignorant of, and it taught me to be more humble in my practice and understand how much I have to learn and discover.
Regarding walking in jhana, the "glow" you mentioned is real, there is an after-state one has after leaving jhanas, it is a state of contentment and joy and clarity which lingers for some minutes or up to half an hour after leaving the jhanas. From the thumbnail - are jhanas easy? As someone who has entered the "light" jhanas, I would like give my opinion and an elaborate explanation of how long I think it could take to master the jhanas. I want to first point out that these "light" sutta jhanas are not "light" at all. As someone who has as a younger person taken MDMA several times, I can say jhanas are "stonger" even than that, they are certainly altered states of consciousness, and the rapture, joy and contentment I felt in them are of a certain kind that I never feel in daily life, these are noticeably "higher" versions of those feelings. I can't speak to the experience of "hard" / "heavy" / Visuddhimagga-style jhanas. What I would say time-wise is that jhanas can be mastered in less than a year, if one does regular practice, meaning meditating almost every day. Meditating for how long? Well at first it's short, several minutes, but at developed levels it means meditating for an hour and later two hours, or maybe even several hours. I would say practical steps would look like this: - At first one can spend a week or two or three mastering the relaxation of the body, this is a one, two, three or up to five minutes meditation, doesn't need to be longer. - Then one should practice for several weeks the meditation process itself (gently returning of the focus onto the breath when it wanders), one can start with doing this for one or two minutes, then slowly increasing until one does 10 - 15 minutes of meditation (after a 1 or 2 minute relaxation of the body). - It might take an additional month of practicing meditation for 10-15 minutes almost every day to start getting into access concentration, depending on how anxious the person is in general. - Then one should spend several weeks or a month mastering getting into access concentration and staying in it for 10, 20, 30 minutes. - Then one needs several weeks of training oneself in the 'gladdening the mind' step, which is trick to get into jhanas from access concentration. As one masters this step, the meditation sessions are hour long or more, like 10-15 meditation plus 20-40 minutes of access concentration plus 5-15 minutes for the gladdening to unfold and the 1st jhana to happen. - Then one needs several weeks in mastering the first jhana. Mastering it doesn't increase the meditation time, bc one can stay in it only for 10, 20, 30 seconds, bc it's a very intense and ecstatic state. - Then one spends several weeks mastering entering and staying in the 2nd jhana. This jhana is much calmer than the 1st one and one can stay in it for 10, 20 minutes for sure. - Then one spends several weeks mastering entering and staying the 3rd jhana. This one and the 4th one are the core of jhana practice. You get in them and stay in one of them for some time, half an hour, an hour, maybe even more, and then you get out of the jhanas. Then you have some time, 10, 20 minutes, there is a residual effects of the jhanas, where the mind is very calm and clear and one can think about various things. As far as I understand it, Buddha's point was that this time should be used to think about core Buddhist teachings. Tho a person can use it for whatever, like listening to music or going for a walk in a park, and this state of mind will make such experiences much more vibrant and impressive. - About the 4th jhana I don't know, I never mastered even entering it, let alone staying in it, I entered it only several times, I could almost say by chance. And I don't have time to practice jhana meditation any more, even this short version. The not short version would be to stay in access concentration for an hour and a half, or two or even three or more hours, before going into the jhanas, this makes the experience of the jhanas a bit different, they are more 'smooth' and 'wide', it takes less mental space to focus on them, IDK how to explain it really, tho I did it only a few times.. Regarding nimittas, yes, when approaching access consciousness if one is meditating with eyes closed - shapes and colors and lights start to appear, and then like a white circle or a tunnel starts to form as one gets into access concentration. When entering the 4th jhana there is a gentle spreading of white light all around, as if someone increased the brightness setting.
Hi, I want to ask you a couple of questions if that's alright. It sounds like this matches very closely to what's taught in the visuddhimagga. However I've read a few places that the instructions in there were originally geared towards meditation using a kasina specifically. That being said I have read the visuddhimagga and several early commentaries on the canon which do not corroborate very well with each other. My question is, have you trained using a kasina? Also, in my own experience, I hardly ever get visual effects resembling what I've heard described in the "light jhanas" but I too have done MDMA my fair share of times and my "nimitta-less" jhana is often more pleasurable and preferrable that those experiences as well. I think my point is is that I can't consider the light jhana wrong by any means as it obviously does the job, I just think the visuddhimagga's description of the nimitta does not match my own experience and seems to be Buddhagosa's attempt at applying the technique and expectations of kasina meditation to the practice of breath meditation. What do you think about this?
@@mackenlyparmelee5440 Afaik Visuddhimagga-style jhanas are entered by using mental images of a nimitta, and are allegedly much deeper states of concentration, where you lose your perception of the outside world and the intuitive sense of time. I've never used kasina purposefully, tho when I when I started meditating I would use visual focus, I would look at a chair, or shelf, or a wall, and the wall one was basically kasina. But I mostly used body relaxation and breath focus.
Doug, for those who are interested, just like to expand on what you are saying at ~18:45 with my own experience. In each Jhana there are 2 stages. first is the normal state and the second is the deep state this is also called jhana and jhana samapaththi in early text. In normal state, all your senses (5 + mind) are open, you can see, hear, smell, feel, taste and think. You can even walk and talk, but your mind is in such a state that it is bound by the boundaries of jhana state. Your senses do not give you same feelings as you would normally get when you are not in a jhana state, this is one of the things that is hard to explain in words. The second, or deep (samapaththi) state of jhana is where your external five senses get switched off. You won’t be able to see, hear, smell, feel or taste and you will lose the control to your body. You can stay hours and hours like this without even moving a single body part. The only sense available to you at that time is your mind but it very different to the mind you normally have. It is very sharp, fast and highly controllable. I will leave the rest for you to discover. 😊
Excellent discussion of a difficult subject! Thank you. It seems to me that much of the difference interpreting jhana as "deeper" or "lighter" only deals with the first jhana (Leigh Brasington notwithstanding). Specifically, whether any thought is possible in the 1st jhana. I think most of this difference can be explained if we just assume the "no thought" group are just mistaking the 2nd jhana for the 1st jhana. As Ajahn Chah said about samadhi, the books and scholars make it sound very organized and linear, but when you experience it, it is more like falling out of a tree with lots of things all seeming to happen at once or in random order. Achieving jhana is very much a threading the needle kind of thing - there are lots of almost-there ways, and a rather narrow but very real path to success, and different people will describe that path in different ways that make sense to them. However, it is a very real thing and very worthwhile, you just need to keep aiming the thread at the hole in the needle until you figure out what works and what doesn't.
Thank you. I agree with you. In my short experience I've gotten closer to pleasant body sensations by feeling my whole body and not just a small area of it where there are already some pleasant feelings as suggested by Basington and others. But Leigh Basington does mention that we need to find the exact method that will work for us individually
@Gideon Pioneer My experience is that many different practices lead to different places - most are nice places, but if Nibbana is the goal, there many practices which do no lead there and some even make you think there is no such thing because one seems to have reached the end but it's not Nibbana. I do agree that if you keep an open mind, always ready to let go of that which no longer works and move on, and keep the goal of ending suffering as the goal, then you will find the path that works.
In my experience, visions don't require very deep meditation, but focusing your awareness down to an infinitesimal point is extremely difficult, and only lasts for a moment. As soon as you become aware of what you're experiencing, your awareness is no longer narrowed down to a single point, so the experience ends.
The first few times i tried meditation i would see images pop out at me a few minutes in mainly people i had never met. They startled me every time so i could never meditate past 5 minutes.
My experience after a day of heavy meditation was that I had a weird body high of feeling very light. Only rivaled by the sensation what I felt when I got robbed one time. Heavy meditation for me always leads to extreme clarity of mind; easy focus, good temper, good mood, etc. And from my experience and the scientific literature I've read it seems that combining focused attention meditation and mindfulness meditation is more powerful, then one kind of practice on themselves.
@@DougsDharma I feel exercise to truly be the meditation of our age(as in lifestyle intervention you can use to reduce suffering/improve wellbeing). I believe there were some zen schools who used running to achieve meditative states( aka runners high). Meditation and exercise both simply modulate the nervous system. It's moving your brain function from lower order to higher order brain regions. I do meditation, aerobic and anaerobic exercise. The mental benefits are priceless! Fasting also is good for the body and mind.
Excellent video. I feel 1 out of 100 is a reasonable ratio. Its easy to achieve Jhana once training is completed. A city like Sacramento can easily have 5000 people who achieved Jhana. It takes me a few days of seclusion to get there.
Doug, thanks for contributions to understanding Buddhism. As a person who was brought up as a Buddhist I think long before medication, one needs to improve mindfulness, compassion and empathy and contentment. Then the practice of meditation will become easier. Having not perfected any of the above mentioned traits, I find it difficult to practice meditation. As a true Buddhist I stand to be corrected!
Fascinating - what’s really helpful for me as a relative newcomer, is the context setting and historical overviews- as you say in other videos too often things that developed over a 1000+ years are presented as a single amalgam, and controversial ideas are presented as fact without letting on things are contested.
Having worked as an academic psychologist for over 40 years I tend to treat the kinds of questions you discussed here as empirical issues. In other words, we need some data to decide between the alternative views, as you briefly hint at towards the end of the episode. And it is possible to get some insights into the states of mind of other people. For example, Steve Taylor of Leeds Becket University has been investigating the awakening process for years and has developed the Inventory of Secular/Spiritual Wakefulness (which he calls WAKE), as a measure of someone's degree of awakening or enlightenment.
Thanks Doug, for your fearless journey into what is an often fraught topic of discussion, even amongst those following The Lord Buddha's recommended path. The prefix Samma, as in Samma Samadhi, is the factor that imparts it's transformative "spin" upon the cultivation of what would otherwise be mere (micca)samadhi or Jhana, not conjoined with the Buddhist Path. As you mentioned, Alara Kalama, one of The Buddha's teachers, could reach some of the so called Arupa(formless) meditations. As I understand it, he could have only reached those lofty arupa meditations, having already achieved the four Jhanas and also been fairly adept at them as a prior attainment. I am happy to stand corrected upon that point, however, Alara Kalama's meditative attainments did not result in the end of suffering for him or the Bodhisattva following his instruction. The context that the prefix Samma establishes in the Buddhist practice, is indeed what brought The Lord Buddha to the overcoming of Dukkha(existential suffering). Samma Samadhi, Jhana, helps to glue, or unify all of The Noble Eightfold Path factors into a functioning lens that helps to clarify The Four Noble truths, anicca, anatta and dukkha. Doug, As you mentioned, This permeates the whole of one's existence, whether in Jhana or cooking a meal. This is it's purpose. The Wheel of Dharma set in motion by Buddhist practice, destroys the impediments to freedom.
You're very welcome John, thanks for your comment! Yes, the question as to whether Aḷāra Kālāma required jhāna for the formless attainments is another fraught topic. My own thought has been that perhaps he achieved them through something like the space kasiṇa rather than through jhāna, but there is no evidence in the texts one way or the other so all we have to go on is supposition. 🙏
@@DougsDharma Seems like a difficult topic given the lack of pre-buddhist texts regarding the subject. I would assume though that the technique of Jhana was likely already known before the Buddha's time. I'll give a couple of reasons for why I think so: First, it's definitely imaginable that the states can be "stumbled upon" by people already trying to meditate. If you're trying to focus on the breath as a meditation object, I think it's fairly natural that you will try to both make the act of breathing itself comfortable and realize that doing so strengthens the concentration. The samana movement was in full swing during the Buddha's time, so it's hard to imagine that someone didn't come accross it by accident at least once. Second is that in the canon, you don't really ever see the formless attainments mentioned apart from the fourth jhana specifically, which suggests that it was considered necessary for the formless attainments. Like I said before though, there are a couple of instances in which the formless attainments aren't mentioned alongside the Jhanas, most notable the culasunnata sutta, which descrbes very clearly the expansion of awareness but does not mention cultivating jhana prior to that specifically. This has a couple of implications logically but let me digress and speak from experience. The formless attainments can be had without the practice of Jhana. It's pretty easy to manipulate your awareness so that it's expansive. However, for it do be of real benefit, especially past the realm of infinite consciousness, your concentration has to already be strong enough to stay with an object despite it not being particularly pleasurable. At the level of nothingness and neither-perception nor non-perception, the object is too vague and refined for the unconcentrated mind to settle in. So I think Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramputta then must have developed their concentration to a very high degree and given my first point that jhana seems like a natural progression of breath meditation, it seems likely that the Buddha's teachers did indeed practice and teach jhana.
I've been meditating for the last 3 years. About 30 minutes to two hours daily. I find it quite hard to map the descriptions of the jhanas on my own experience. I feel very strongly that I have experienced everything up to the 7th Jhana (definitely up to the 4th) but the lines are kind of blurry. Anyways, I started getting into the first Jhana by week 2 of my meditation practice and from there it just went faster and faster. However, after achieving the most impressive (even though that may not be the highest) level I could manage (absolute bliss rushing up my spine, hot and wonderful, no body, only searing white light around me, no thoughts at all, just existence - in a nutshell), I guess I got scared. I had nobody to guide me. I literally just sat down with a meditation app (Waking up - by Sam Harris) and after sitting for about an hour crazy stuff started happening. It was overwhelming. So, in the following months (close to a year), I never got anywhere close again. Now, I am slowly building up to it again and there is steady progress. It was confusing for a while but I feel like I can balance it better now. Here's my theory of why this happened so quickly to me (PLEASE correct me if this is nonsense): I am a philosophy teacher and was very well grounded in materialism and science. At some point I had heard too much (or just enough) about that marvelous thing that is meditation. So I said: "Fuck it! I am going to give this nonsense a go!" Then all of the above happened to me and only after that I started reading up on it a little. I may get this totally wrong but from what I understand, you need to see the world in a certain light in order to enter the Jhanas. What I read was pretty much exactly my world view only worded strangely with a lot of foreign terms. It seemed to me that my education and personal research in the fields of philosophy and especially psychology shaped me into exactly what you need to be in order to be ready for entering the Jhanas. Things like "no free will", "a universe that just happens", "past, present and future existing all at once", "consciousness being fundamental to all of existence", just to name a few beliefs. Please respond if any of that rings true or even if it sounds like complete nonsense.
I had some experiences that match your descriptions pretty closely. My first heavy experiences almost came out of nowhere and left me pretty baffled for a while. I fell deeply in love with this state. But It was kind of unattainable. Only once in a while I went deep again. But it was never of the same quality. Still, I could say, that I am in the same phase of "slowly building up to it" , as you say it. I guess the ingredient to achieve this regularly is "right effort". Ajahn Maha bua of the thai forest tradition describes it as follows (from his Arahattamagga - path to arahantship):"At certain times it seems to progress smoothly, almost effortlessly, only to become suddenly and unexpectedly difficult. It falters, and all apparent progress disappears. With its confidence shaken, the mind is left floundering. However, if we use a meditation-word as an anchor to solidly ground our mindfulness, then the mind is sure to attain a state of meditative calm and concentration in the shortest possible time. It will also have the means to maintain that calm state with ease.[...]Due to the intense effort I exerted in the beginning, my mind succeeded in attaining a calm and concentrated state of samãdhi. It felt as substantial and stable as a mountain.[...]My practice began to deteriorate, but I didn’t know how to reverse the decline.[...]I lacked a meditation-word to act as a precise focus for my attention.[...]I focused on the mental repetition of buddho to the exclusion of everything else. Buddho became my sole objective even as I made sure that mindfulness was always in control to direct the effort." In short: his method was to repeat buddho in the mind from dawn till dusk without a break. This exertion of right effort creates the necessary conditions. You must have continuous mindfulness of your meditation object: the breath, the body, the mantra (e.g. buddho like above) or anything that suits you. The key is to be always aware of what the object does. Then your meditation will advance. A monastery is obviously a great place.
Jhana is not something to explain, or talk about or brag out about but to bee experienced. anyways, breathing and heartbeat stops at 4th jhana, that happened to you?
In at least one of your past lives, you might have attained jhana. Otherwise, it is impossible to get to jhana within a short time. Some monks need 12 years!
There’s only 4 stages, so if you got to 7 - then you are not only an enlightened, Nirvana attained Arhat, but an almighty über Buddha. Further, if you even got anywhere close to the 4th Jhana, you certainly wouldn’t be commenting about it (as said Huineng in the Platform Sutra)
@@aeopmusic Yeah, as I've said: it feels a little more like 4 to me but I have found categorizations that include 7 and these categorizations also kind of make sense. On that second part of your comment about not commenting on 4th Jhana... Oh man, I have to giggle right now. Believe me, I am super aware of the irony or even insanity of even attempting to talk about that. However, since the Jhanas are nowhere near a stable thing for me and since I have pretty much zero guidance in that area, I am kind of confused and still feel the need to talk about it. For guidance but also validation (hello Ego!). As I've said, it is not stable for me. I can get there but every time I get sucked back into ego-mode and that ego wants to express itself and be heard. It is extremely frustrating.
Buddha's original teachings were simple like follow your own path with the right intention and be truthful. It would be impossible to control a population that finds meaning only within themselves
It's interesting that I found this video. I recently read an article about someone that went to a retreat and was practicing jhana meditation. The article said that he experienced severe states of anxiety and ptsd. To be honest it was rather worry some.
Yes I've heard of a few such cases, though to my knowledge they are rare. That said, this is one good reason to practice jhāna with an experienced teacher.
I'm going to bring up a concept in lucid dreaming where you meditate "in dream" so then, you could be walking "in dream" while meditating "in dream" consciously but not in material reality. . I recently decided to experiment more with meditating after achieving lucidity. So many "states" have occured to me while lucid. Is Jana lucid states? not sure.
Jhāna isn't a dream state, it's a waking state of deep meditation. I imagine it might be possible to achieve jhāna while dreaming though, interesting thing to contemplate ...
9:51 Bikkhu Sujato: virtually nobody practices visuddhimagga-style jhanas 11:48 Buddha enters first jhana as a young boy (mythology says his father was participating in a plowing festival at the time) 14:23 the Buddha describes walking while in the fourth jhana 25:57 uppakilesa sutta MN 128: the Buddha had difficulty entering jhana 29:13 Bikkhu Brahmali on walking while in jhana
You skillfully handled this controversial topic Doug! And l liked you linked into the Suttas (although having recently read MN128 I can’t discern anything concrete from it that would suggest either argument). It’s difficult to interpret. I can only speak to having attained light Jhana’s 1-4. Those practise are undeniablly helpful - they teach you a progressive letting go of formations with regard to self. I cannot see how the practise isn’t helpful. They develop your factors of enlightenment. My friends who practise hard Jhana’s do not acknowledge my light Jhana’s. That’s okay - I don’t know. I would like to go to Pa Auk one day for 3-6 months so I can compare apples to oranges for myself - but that not available to me right now. I would recommend trying Brasington’s practise and ‘see for yourself’. And if you can and feel motivated - go practise hard Jhana too! Metta beings!
Thanks for this wide-ranging discussion of jhana, mentioning various relevant perspectives and texts. One small point I disagreed on was in your discussion of the Upakkilesa Sutta. In this, the light and forms that the Buddha referred to were not presented as things to overcome, but to stabilise, by overcoming a range of impediments that include the 5 hindrances but go beyond these too. They clearly deal with the same kind of thing as the 'nimittas' described in the Visuddhimagga, and which also arise to those, for example, practising the the Samatha Trust tradition of the UK (samatha.org) and beyond, based on a Thai tradition. I belong toand teach in this tradition and am familiar, in practice, with light arising when the mind becomes free of the hindrances and simple visual forms arising. I would not see these as 'visions', but mental impressions that arise from close attention to a focus of mindful concentration (usually the breath). As a scholar, I have written on jhana and issue of how deep it is:
Thanks much for that clarification, yes I guess I didn't say that very clearly. I didn't mean one should literally overcome them but rather that they weren't the aim of the meditation and the Buddha struggled with them. I think by "visions" I'm intending to mean what you're calling "mental impressions". Since they are in the visual field in this case I'd call them "visions", though I've been told nimittas don't always have to be visual. Perhaps you know more!
Interesting talk, thanks. Meditation practices or techniques are always facinating. Norman Fischer gave a talk at Tassajara on the Parinirvana Sutra, the occasion was the end of the winter practice period at that Soto Zen monastery. In that sutra, as Doug noted, the Buddha's disciples can't decide if the great teacher is dead or deep in some jhanic state of absorption. It's Norman F. belief that in the course of long sesshins, Zen students experience jhanic states but have no frame of reference or vocabulary to label them as such. Also Soto Zen students are taught not to engage or fixate on altered states or visions. What I wonder is how much of jhana is the power of suggestion. If you hang out with Zen types, on long retreats you experience "kensho" or satori. If you go on retreats with Leigh B. or other jhana teachets, you experience the 4 jhana stages. If you are in the world of Vipassana, then you achieve liberation through a deep intuition of anicca or impermanence. (Assuming that we are all accomplished meditators! ) I have no experience with jhana retreats myself, I did read Leigh's book and wrote him asking this very question. Very accessible nice guy.
Yes I do imagine some of it is the power of suggestion. How much, I don't know. At the end of the day, what counts is how the practice resolves itself internally and externally through one's calmness and behavior.
@@DougsDharma In zen the masters say you have to be in "dhyana" all the time. Shikantaza all the time.... while working, walking or sitting. That's is a way of life and a certain social organization (work , resources and so on). So I would like you to speak about the social organisation of the sangha and its relation to achieve dhyana. Budda was very concious of the "material reality" (material, law, power). In the urban zen temples is very difficult to achieve a continuous practice.... but there are "gold stantards" like Muho of Antai Ji.... Hacemos lo que podemos (we do what we could...)
I do think you have a great a point here. If I may give a little background: the light jhanas come from the visuddhimagga, which was written almost 1000 years after the Buddha died. The description found in here for breath meditation (i.e. seeing a visuall nimitta) seem to be much closer to what's described in the canon for kasina meditation. Buddhagosa does indeed describe the technique of kasina meditation and it is nearly identical to the description of breath meditation. However, the canon,s description of breath meditation is extremely dissimilar to the VM's. When I look at it in context, I have to conclude that Buddhagosa tried to ascribe the experience of kasina to the technique of breath meditation. Again, the canon does not corroborate the visuddhimagga with the exception of kasina meditation. The "nimitta" as described in the canon simply meant "sign" or "object of meditation". Now I want to stress this very much: the light jhanas as practiced by readers of the visuddhimagga are not wrong in any way, BUT if you want to practice breath meditation, you're better off sticking with the canon as your guide. What you've described as states that could be confused as death are way deeper than jhanic concentration, and fall into what's call nirodha samapatti, or cessation of perception and feeling. If you follow the canon's instructions, the only time you are focusing or paying any attention to a "light" would be practicing kasina meditation. It is mentioned nowhere in the context of anapanasati. It works, again it's not wrong, but in my opinion, expecting to see a nimitta like that is going to make things harder. Follow MN 119 for breath meditation. As far as vipassana-samatha, again this is something not found in the canon. When vipassana is mentioned, it is always paired with samatha. Trying to practice one without the other is like a bird trying to fly with one wing. This is not to step on practicioners of both, again all I'm saying is that if a vipassana meditator has acheived results, they have attained jhana, and if a samatha practicioner acheives results, they have gained insight into impermanence. You cannot seperate the two.
I have been meditating on and off most of my life, I recently decided to learn more to have a deeper practice. There are a lot of bad advice out there on meditation for sure. I have learned a lot of new things that didn't add much to the "just sitting" practice I learned in karate. Which is essentially meditation on emptiness. Recently I have started meditation on death, impermanence. As well as meditating while doing monotonous tasks that require little thought at work. I think it is complex, but it is automatic, it doesn't happen by much seeking, only by doing practice.
@@DougsDharma I think this is a great idea, thank you Doug. I have followed your advice and located a Sangha on Plum Village website. I was always intimidated by going to the local temple, although their statues are so beautiful.
Done meditation for years. Have no clue if I reach even the first Jhana to be true, but I’m a layman and not a monk. Reading the book ‘ A critical analysis of the Jhanas ’ chapter 4 goes into the first Jhana and it’s factors. I find it pretty challenging. Have a great day. 🙏🙏🙏
Yes it's hard to be sure, and anyway I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just practice. If you find a jhāna teacher they can guide you from their own perspective.
@@DougsDharma yes I will. My son is a monk. I discuss the dharma with him every so often.I gather in the end it doesn’t matter so much, as long as you just practice every day. The day I pass away I might be enlightened 😌 in the mean time I study the books of Jhana and other scriptures of Buddhism and practice yoga breathing techniques. Btw keep up the good work of information 👍🙏🙏🙏 and, have a great day.
Buddhaghosa was not a person who attained nirvana, not even a stream enterer for that matter according to his literature. Therefore, we can put aside whatever his claims on jhana (or Dhyana). I agree that achieving them are not easy, and some can’t even get to first jhana or get past a certain level of jhana no matter how much they meditate. This is particularly true when you are in third jhana, where your mind is in an extremely happy and satisfied state that no worldly matter can give you. When you are there, you don’t want to leave that place. Despite all that, you can complete all four jhana if you follow the steps described in early text. Not only that, you can experience all the road signs exactly as described in the text. Leigh Brasington was spot on when he said there are two types of jhana and those are suthra (early text) style and Buddhaghosa style (or worldly jhana). This was clearly mentioned in early text. Latter is not useful to achieve nirvana. You mentioned that you can have temporary liberation when you are in jhana, this statement is partially correct. You won’t experience the true liberation until fourth jhana, when you are there, you are out of time, out of space and out of world, the experience is difficult to explain in words and this is from my own experience.
Thanks Doug that's an interesting explanation of the debate between the 'deeper' and the 'lighter' folks. I wonder if you've considered doing a video on your own practice and describing your own experience of these matters?
You are correct, we don’t stop breathing in 4th Jhana. We stop being the body, we are no longer the experiencer, therefore we are not the breather, the body continues to breath and do whatever it does, while we beyond all things and completely equanimous, just neutrally aware. When becoming absorbed while walking, you will stop feeling footsteps, as a simple example.
Based on experience, deep jhana is preliminary for light jhana. By closing the eyes, still the body, etc. One can attain silence of body, mind emotion in some sense. After that, when we finish the practice. The jhana-state remain (not always, jhana is not easy stuff).... thats how one can walk, talk, eat in jhana. Just like the emphasis of Zen Buddhism. Bring meditativeness into daily activities. It remains for few minutes or few hours. In my case, it happened few hours. Then it is gone. I am back to usual state of mind. In that jhana state, when i talk, or walk i can clearly see the thoughts & emotional process happening inside. It come and goes. So it was very weird. As if there is two kinds of minds 'working simultanenously': one is the jhana-mind (the witnessing passive mind), and the second one is the normal mental mind (usual thoughts and emotional movement). And the most interesting thing is in jhana state, all negative emotion (fear, anger, doubts) can be seen at that time it started to bubbling up. When it seen directly, by awareness, it just gone. The bubbles busted before they become bigger. No need to think this is bad, this is negative. No... It just busted naturally, effortlessly. Plus in Light Jhana state, there is a natural calm-peace-blissfullness happening, like flowing out from inside, or showering oneself from somewhere. I think this Light Jhana vs Deep Jhana looks like a cardio workout. After doing 'right' cardio workout, our metabolism become faster, heart rate become faster. After we finished the workout, the heart rate is still high for minutes/hours. Proper cardio workout = deep jhana practice High heart rate state = state of light jhana Maybe some practice goes directly to Light Jhana. Maybe that also possible. No need to use Deep Jhana practice. But i never tried that. Once you have the taste of Light Jhana. You know what is it like to be in enlightened state, what kind of life you will live. Thats what i know so far.. How come the light jhana state gone? Why it gone? How to prevent it gone? How to remain in Light Jhana state for 24 hours a day, is still mystery for me.
Many thanks Doug, excellent discussion, very interesting and helpful. I would like to seek some clarifications if you please be able to help me. Early in your lecture, you mentioned that Buddhism refers to only 4 Jhana's. The 4 Jhana's you are referring to seem to linked with what are known as "Ruupawachara (form-aware) Jhana. As I have observed, some Theravadha Buddhist sermons refer to 4 more Jhana's which are called Arrupawachara (formless) Jhanas (Aakinchanyathana, Vinyathana, Aakasanyathana, and NevasanyaNasanyathana). It seems you are referring these to as Formless Attainments (but not Jhanas). Perhaps these Arrupawachara Jhanas (and ruupawachara as well?) stem from pre-Buddhism era (Hinduism?) Would you please be able to explain why do you think these would not be classified as Jhanas? Also, the later discourses and literature in Theravadha Buddhism seems to suggest there are distinct features of each of Jahana states that we can perhaps use to recognise the attainment of such states of mind while meditating (for example, the first Jahana is a state of mind with Vithakka-Vichara, Preetihi, Suka and Akagratha; whereas in second Jhana, there is no Vithakka-Vichara or Preethi). What are your thoughts on these distinct features? I am so sorry, I am new exploring these concepts, and from the top of my mind I cannot pinpoint where I have read / heard these concepts, hope you have come across these concepts in your research at some point. Many thanks.
I have a playlist where I go into the jhānas and formless attainments among other things, you can see it here: ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRiHHGTYuHmFs3pkjbpzzWtB
Results of Bhavana mind training practicing can be known from experiences of individuals at the time of Buddha. Because Buddha must had guided when individual shares his/her experiences and also to guide to go further in bhavana 🙏🏼
I used to experience first jhana without knowing what that was before starting a formal meditation practice. The more learned about the practice (TMI mostly), the less accessible the jhanas have become for me, even though I have progressed in all other areas. I will have to strengthen my attention (concentration) skill again probably. The past year my focus was more on wide awareness in order to stay as present and awake as possible. Now I need to bring both skills together without diminishing either of them. Jhanas are a powerful way of increasing mindfulness and their clarity makes life-altering insights accessible. I am not craving the jhanas anymore, like I did when they went away. But they sure would be welcome. And in my experience talking while in jhana would definitely be possible. Once the mind sinks into the flow state of jhana, concentration stabilizes effortlessly.
Thanks Marc. As for talking, I think it depends partly on which jhāna we're talking about. Given the definitions, speech would almost certainly be impossible from the second jhāna onwards.
I would say the only way one could hope to verify a certain degree or type of Jhana, would be if there were certain trials or tests associated with each stage. If you fail the test, then you have not attained the appropriate level of concentration. What these tests would entail and who decides there validity would be the next controversy, which would ultimately lead to an appeal to authority by one master or another. Unless, of course, we can agree upon tests which the Buddha himself recommended, but I'm not a scholar so I wouldn't know about that. Maybe Doug will do a Video about it in the future. As for this problem of Jhana depth, as it stands today, I really can't see a way to satisfyingly resolve the issue in an alternative way to testing. Maybe it's a mental impurity in itself, one of the comparing mind? Maybe we should never concern ourselves with the level of attainment of others? But this sounds impractical to me, for how would a meditation teacher train their Student? Fascinating topic as always, Thanks Doug.
Yes, thanks Tormunn. Having trials or tests is an interesting idea, though I don't know of any in the early texts, so the Buddha himself wouldn't be of much help I'm afraid.
If I may, it's pretty counterproductive to try and verify what level of jhana you're in while you're practicing. If you're wanting to judge progress and whether a meditation session is good or not, the main thing to look at is what you did and how well it worked. The point of the jhanas is to steady and concentrate the mind and the way the jhanas work, if you've ever taken a behavioral psychology class, is by giving you a reward for doing a specific action, it this case piti arises when the mind pays attention to its object. The breath is good because the chances are high that you can find a spot or way of breathing that's pleasurable and this creates a feedback loop> The more you pay attention to it, the better it feels. The better it feels, the more you pay attention to it. When you've completely absorbed yourself in that task, you're cooking. It takes care of itself more or less from there. The pleasure can become "loud" in a sense. I prefer the term "full" (the Buddha often referred to piti as a type of food). When you're mind is full of course pleasure, it naturally starts to tend towards what I could call peace and calm through to contentment through to solidity. Different meditation sessions will produce different amounts of pleasure, and how much is there is really proportional to how much the mind needs to calm down. Sometimes it takes a lot, sometimes hardly any. But again I want to be clear, the end goal of meditation is not pleasure, rather pleasure is the tool that we can use to satisfy and calm the mind down. I would recommend reading the Kayagatasati sutta, MN 119, for a description. Don't judge a meditation session by how much piti arises, but rather how contented you became by doing it. Pay attention to what your mind really needs and whether you can help it to wean off of constantly needing to feed. Jhana is a heck of a way to do that.
This is one of the best videos on the subject that I've ever watched! 🙏🏻 The general discussion (necessary for enlightenment or not, how deep, etc.) is very tiring and only proves one thing: Jhānas are not sufficient for enlightenment. If the respective practitioners were enlightened, they wouldn't cling so desperately to their own ideas/views... 🌊
Suffice it to say...You rise to the level of need....No more...No less. You don't under water a flower...anymore than you'd over water it. You do what you do to get the job done. Balance in all that you do.
Hi Doug, great exploration of the Jhanas here. I am wondering, to your knowledge, are you aware of any works in which there is a comparison between the deeper meditative states or the jhanas as they are described in Theravada Schools with the deeper meditative states as they are described in Mayahana Buddhism? I really enjoyed reading a book by a long term solitary Tibetan meditator named Gen Lamrimpa, but found they seem to employ different terminology and concepts to achieve these meditative states. For example, instead using the concept of the 5 Hinderences to address obstacles in meditation, they address these obstacles as the 5 Faults. The term jhanas also does not appear to be used in Mahayana commentaries. I feel there is a wealth of experiential commentaries on meditation in both Theravada & Mahayana Buddhism and I wonder of there is anyone who has really extracted the essence from both and been able to draw comparisons. Thanks for your videos, as always it was really informative
Thanks David! Yes, I'm not aware of a comparison between the deep mediative practices found in early Buddhism and those in Mahāyāna. (Theravāda is another thing, since Theravāda historically has been at times quite different in its practices from what we find in the early tradition). Some may simply be due to vagaries of translation. I'm not sure if the "5 faults" you mention is simply an issue of translation or not. My understanding has been that generally in Mahāyāna the jhānas have not been pursued to the extent they were in early Buddhism, but I don't remember where I heard this and it could be wrong.
I appreciate the response Doug. If anyone had made any comparisons, I figured you'd know about it. In 1988 Tibetan monk & contemplative Gen Lamrimpa led a one-year retreat at Cloud Center Retreat Center in Washington with a group of aspiring western meditators. The purpose of the retreat was to develope Calm Abiding. The book is a translation of talks given in the first two weeks of the retreat. Gen Lamrimpa doesn't mention the 5 Hindrances or the Jhanas as I am familiar with them. He details how to address the 5 Faults as 1) Laziness, 2)Forgetfulness (of the object of meditation), 3)Laxity & Excitement (as distractions), 4) Non-Application (of antidotes), 5) Application (over-application of antidotes). Again while he doesn't mention the Jhanas by name, he does describe a very similar state of pliancy which becomes available once the meditator develops very refined stability on an object of meditation. It was really a pleasure to read and I recommend this as supplementary reading to any aspiring meditator (Calming The Mind - Gen Lamrimpa). I appreciate your videos. You add much needed credibility and clarity to the subject of meditation and jhana in which there often isn't a consensus. I assume this lack of consensus indicates that as western meditators we still have a ways to go to develope our own understanding of meditation & you are leading the way! Keep up the great work! I will keep referring people to your channel every chance I get!
@@David-gv4fw Thanks much! There's a lot out there I don't know about so it may well be there is some paper that treats this in detail, if you find anything scholarly let me know!
In my experience, entering first jhana is like focusing your attention to an object of meditation manually. Entering second jhana is like stop thinking (being anxious) about whether the concentration is at your subject and just concentrating. Entering third jhana is like that not focusing the attachment of bliss or calmness achieved during earlier jhanas along with concentration. Entering the fourth, one only has achieved concentration alone, not the thought about concentration, not the feeling about concentration, not manually focusing your attention. During all of these, you can contemplate about your state without losing it. But too much wondering would you fall back from jhana. Deeper state of meditation such as meditation about nothingness. One is too absorbed in breathing that one forget to breath sometimes. This happens to me and I get heart shock everytime that happens. So I try not to enter such state. Anyway my interpretation about my experience can be wrong. Thanks for the video.
This is in regards to the "one in a billion" from the Visuddhimagga: In his German translation of the Visuddhimagga the Ven. Nyanatiloka makes it very clear - clearer than in Nanamoli's translation - that this "numbers game" applies only to someone with no previous experience with the jhanas at all. Previous here meaning previous lifetimes. Therefore one might enter those deep states fairly easy, if one has practiced them in the past. And the Buddha himself has labelled the jhanas as "superhuman states."
Yes, I think that makes more sense, and indeed they were considered "superhuman states" by the Buddha. Of course, what he meant by that is that they are literally extra-ordinary, not that they require some sort of superhero ability to achieve. (Which does though still leave it open that they could be quite difficult to achieve and take a great deal of time and effort).
@@DougsDharma To me two things stand out when it comes to jhana in the EBTs: (1) their designation as superhuman states and (2) lying about them as a monastic immediately cuts one off from being a bhikkhu. At least according to the Theravada interpretation. That puts the jhanas one par with killing a human (and also on par with stealing an apple). This leads me to think that if they are easy to attain the language would be different.
To my mind, the mystery is solved if we consider that the Jhana state is not defined by "depth". It can happen in a variety of levels of what we consider depth of meditation and its effect and importance is essentially independent of it. Jhanas are defined by the state of mind achieved in them, as you mention. On the other hand, the formless attainments are a different classification which is based on "depth" as we usually think of it. Both classifications are to some extent independent of each other, that is, you may or may not experience one or more of the attainments while in jhana. But whether or not that is the case, that doesn't add or detract much to the Jhana experience. Just my two cents. Great video anyway, Doug
My understanding is that sound is a thorn for the first jhana in the sense that it makes it much more difficult for the practitioner to achieve the first jhana if sound is present. It is not something that will take you out of the first jhana when achieved, when in that state.
Would you consider a compare and contrast of epicurean practice vs early Buddhism? I believe Epicurus lived similarly to the Buddha in some ways. Keep up the good work!
The real Jhanas are extremely difficult to attain and require parami and seclusion. I’ve seen people suffer or give up just because they are not able to get Jhana. I realize that we should practice for the sake of practicing and not be craving attainments . If it’s meant to be, it will happen. For me it has not happened and it’s ok 😀 Not this lifetime, next lifetime
No don't give up I've it's not easy as it says but if you get right kamatahan and karamasthana related to your meditation form a Buddhism monk it would be much easier so don't give up try I've also experienced going near to 1st Dyana an it's amazing. Bu
RE: Shariputra's ability to describe the qualities of the four Dhyanas. Hindu linguistic metaphysics might have an explanation for this. It would be described as the levels of Vak (Speech).The actual state of Dhyana might correspond to Pashyanti Vak which is non-verbal, self-certifying, transcendental. The transitional state from to Dhyana to full waking might correspond to Madhyama Vak--a type of pre-verbal download, perhaps accompanied by symbolic colors, sounds, or images. Return to the full waking state and restoration of the articulate, reflective mind would correspond to Vaikhari Vak. Most likely, as a dhyana master, Shariputra had rapid recovery and download into speech--and so he had an extraordinary ability to describe levels of Dhyana.
When it comes to the 4th jhana. I don't think its breathing but voluntary breathing would break the 4th jhana. When you are in that state you are so focused that you are no longer conscious that you are breathing. The minute you can be conscious of your own breathing you are already out of the 4th jhana. Just my uneducated guess.
We need to understand how literal “no effort” is required for jhanas. Therefore a child going into these states are more likely than an adult. Know that the idea behind Zen Buddhism tends to be associated with requiring so much effort so as to push the meditator to a point of exhaustion and complete surrender, this then provides the “no effort” opportunity. I have been in a state of pure equanimity, my consciousness had shifted beyond all things while walking to work, and persisted at work for a total of almost 3 hours. I came out of it when I had to prepare for a meeting, while trying to think at a planning level , I realised I couldn’t think, I then actively (volition, Will) forced the mind to restart, i observed the mind is a vortex which can be stopped and started at Will, but takes immense skill, which I don’t yet have, I fluked it this time. The fact I was aware throughout the experience of “no experiencer”, as the body continued to go about its activities, tells me everything is predetermined, only without this experience the ego is tightly bound to the activities which makes the individual think what they do is there choice.
I heard Ajahn Amaro tried the Tibetan method of concentration, that includes nine stages, and said that was fairly similar to the Theravadha method, leading to the same results.
Interesting Alicia. I don't know the Tibetan method of concentration, and wonder about its history. Was it derived from later Buddhist ideas that were themselves derived from jhāna and the formless attainments? Or does it have some other historical root?
@@DougsDharma I really do not know. I guess they would say they come from some Sutras. What It is different in the method is that they explicitly say that a lot of isolation and silence is needed to develop concentration and several months, about 9 or 12 months living quite secluded, not even having frequent interviews with the teacher. 🙏
@@DougsDharma There are various systems used in the Tibetan traditions. The nine stages comes from the abhidharmakosa-era Mahayana Indians, which of course emphasized the union of calm abiding and insight. Given the considerable emphasis on insight into emptiness as understood as the "freedom from conceptual extremes", they had little use for anything beyond the first dhyana (until actual path of seeing, then an Arya makes use of the higher dhyanas). The important point however with the Tibetan systems is that shamatha methods are virtually always in the context of Vajrayana and so empowerment, (implicitly) tantric anatomy, and emphasizing resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. As such there are major qualitative differences between how shamatha is understood and cultivated than in common Mahayana or Nikayana, and can include sadhana and mantra recitation. I think one of the most interesting Tibetan approaches to concentration are the nongradual semdes, where all four stages of the system are progressed through each session until one can instantly enter and remain in the fourth. This works with the understanding that samadhi is a natural mental factor.
Thorns only poke you if they have a surface to penetrate. Moving through a thorny patch in the woods, you can weave through softly, gliding by the thorns or maybe just gently be grabbed/scratched by them. So to say, sound being a thorn, may not entail it being a nail in a coffin. It may not totally prevent us from stepping into meditative states, if we don’t meet it with tension. See, if I brace against the thorn or pull away from it, well it hurts. I don’t have to always get stabbed by this thorn. Nor does sound or thinking prevent meditative states. Running through the woods, you learn to be soft and supple. If its not thorns, it may be a slick rock under your foot. Going barefoot, welll then, that only adds more fun! :) My take on thorns.
the arupa jhanas are mentioned in a Yogacharya text translated by Thomas Cleary. I don’t remember the name it’s been over 20 years since i read it. so that qualifies as a mahayana reference to them.
Is there an assumption that everyone should have the same jhana experience/practice in the path to enlightenment? If so, is this assumption testable? Given the fact that everyone's gene is slightly different (so their brain structures are slightly different from each other), everyone's past experiences which shape what they are now (karma?) are also different, is it possible that everyone's path is also different? If so, I'm afraid the real question is which way is best for an individual. It is likely that a person who could liberate following the "light jhana" path struggled his whole life in the "deep jhana" path instead, putting all his effort but got nowhere, or vice versa. The Budhha was a great teacher who could show people the way they were suited for. I wish everyone reading this can find the teacher who can show the right path for them and have the diligence/perseverance to walk along the path.
Yes I agree Howling Fjord. Some people may be better suited to light and others to deep jhāna practice. The argument from the deep jhāna folks is basically that if you never try it you'll never know. I think that's also a good point, in that if one has time and interest, there's no reason not to try for a deeper jhāna. Either way though it's good practice.
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In Mahayana scripture, the 6th patriarch tells Fada that there are not 3 vehicles (bodhisattva, pratyekabuddha, sravaka) but only one, which was divided into 3 “for the sake of deluded people”. Could it be the same with the Jhanas?
I have experienced a wide variation of body mind stillness with no directed thought and a neutral feeling tone. I think all were jhanic states based on the classic criteria. I think some people may be mistaking formless attainments for jhana or are limiting jhana to extreme body mind stillness states that go beyond the standard criteria. I think there is some ego puffery or whatever you called it going on where whatever level of body mind stillness I have achieved is the threshold for calling it jhana.
I think the first level of jhana is simply being able to maintain an anchor with mindfulness of the body, especially while going about your business. If you can’t take it off the cushion, it is of limited use.
Yes jhāna is a matter of great controversy among practitioners. The point though is to ease our tendency towards greed, hatred, and delusion. So that's what we should focus on.
Regarding the cessation of breathing, I have, on occasion gotten into such a deep session that I stopped breathing, which was fine until I was abruptly aroused from meditation due to my brain suddenly forcing me to breathe. I don't doubt that someone who trained properly for that particular state could actually accomplish many tens of minutes in it.
I'm not accomplished in jhana practice in any way, and even in rudimentary meditation my breathing stops when I start getting a little deep. Then my body forces me to breathe and thus my experience is not profound as there's discomfort and interruption. What does this indicate? And how do I go about this?
I'm not aware of anywhere where Jhana would be considered unnecessary, especially considering that it's one of the eight path factors and one of the seven factors of enlightenment. However, my hunch is that the practice of insight meditation and the practice of samatha meditation were originally both called "jhana" as they follow the same format and progression willed to effortless, from joyous to equanimous.
@@DougsDharma If we look in the visuddhimagga, the concentration gained by doing vipassana meditation is still called either access or first jhana. There are other places in the canon that detail how nibbana can be attained directly from any one of the jhanas. Some sort of concentration is necessary though, and the concentration gained by vipassana practice, even in the visuddhimagga, is called "right concentration".
I wish I could reach a jhana state so I can see my past lives. I need to go to a Buddhist monastery hosting a meditative retreat. Having a hard time doing it on my own.
I've listened to this or one of your related ones several times now, with something nagging about it, and that is the equation of difficulty, depth, and inability to hear or walk or whatever. There is a part of my practice for which these equate -- although since I do my meditation standing, I'm not sure that I would not be able to walk so much as not do it, I do another form as well which is more akin to saṃāveśa, which is a samadhi in Vajrayana but not probably in "early buddhism". After working on one of the states for quite a while, and it was only accessible to me after decades of daily (but not multi-hour per day daily) practice, seems more like it is "next to" the other states of consciousness, or "outside" of them or something, in that from it, I can check my watch, shut off the bell, etc. as if 'stepping out for a minute' and then rejoin the state, I can go another direction and have a dream and step back out, etc. I toy with calling it turiya, only because it isn't waking, it isn't dreaming, it isn't dreamless, but it doesn't really fit others' descriptions of turiya (which only means "fourth" anyway). As in your description of deep states there are visions, there is a 'glow' on leaving it, as in some of the descriptions of the four attainments there are "infinite" or "non-dual" perceptions. There are also sequences that seem like 'lived mythology' but are quite distinct from dreaming (which as I said, I can enter and return to this state in). There are, for lack of a better name, guru deities as well, they actually teach, but they do so by, as I said, more like āveśa. Is it dhyana/jhana? Maybe not, but I can get there from standard dhyana practice. My main point is that it does allow other things to be done, but on sort of parallel tracks. There is a stream of consciousness, I usually ignore it but don't actually have to, I can get up and walk around and stop and reenter, I can dream and return. It's a very "deep" state in that it's very "non-dual". I can and do stop breathing, but that has always been a defect, I specifically worked with a Zen master to stop doing that, it was not do to this, it was do to concentrating on a point and doing too good a job of it. Hope this helps. non-performance doesn't equal depth doesn't equal difficulty.
When one in these states it's impossible to think about anything. Only pure awareness remains. Then how vipassana can be applied when one can't think at all? Or maybe there is something else besides simply being pure awareness?
@@DougsDharma maybe. What I had afterwards is a feeling of peace with anything that appears. During jhanas my mind becomes single pointed - awareness doesn't jump from one object/feeling/thought to another. I think i need to continue looking deep into my own feeling of who I'm, or better yet - need to find experienced Theravada teacher.
You mention that the Buddha fell into the first Jhana almost effortlessly, which seems to imply that it's not so difficult to reach. However, doesn't this ignore the possibility that the Buddha had practiced meditation extensively in earlier lives and that the conditions for this first Jhana (the seeds of which had been planted in earlier lives) came together at that point? So, it would seem to me that this doesn't imply that the first Jhana is relatively easy to reach. In a similar way, the Vajrayana school asserts that it's possible to reach enlightenment in one lifetime. However, this also seems to gloss over the possibility that the Vajrayana practitioner in this life, has practiced meditation over many previous lives. One of my teachers suggested that the conditions for me having found the Vajrayana had been seeded over countless previous lifetimes and that I was simply experiencing the ripening of this karma in this life, and that i shouldn't waste this precious opportunity and continue to lay the karmic seeds for continued practice in my future lives.
Jhana is real and achievable to regular people if work is put into it.. I love Lee. Also a great book on jhana is FOCUS AND FEARLESS. by SHAILA CATHERINE. GOOD LUCK MY FRIENDS
I don't know what a jhana is and it sounds like noone does to me, but I've been in 2 or 3 distinct forms of meditation. I normally just fall into classic awareness meditation, but once or twice I got to that point where you see shapes. Also not sure if this counts, but when I got a bad cold as a child, I felt like I was doing the celestial walking thing. There where several hours there while I was more content than I had ever been before or since. No care for anything, just a mostly silent car ride to the doctor and back
This is a Buddhist practice, if you want to learn about it I have a playlist that includes videos on each of the four jhānas: ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRiHHGTYuHmFs3pkjbpzzWtB .
Ive been nervous to meditate since my first few times. I would see people try and pop out at me but not in a scary way. I'd still get startled cause its like i could hear what they were doing even if it was for a split second until i startled myself out to reality. Very strange
Results of Bhavana mind training practicing can be known from experiences of individuals at the time of Buddha. Because Buddha must had guided when individual shares his/her experiences and also to guide to go further in bhavana 🙏🏼. I am interested to know how many types of bhavana mind training meditation practices Buddha discovered? From which book I can find?🙏🏼 I have Vishuddhimaga, Majjimnikaya, and Satipatthan.
Well it depends how you count them. For example, if you look at the Eightfold Path, there are two: mindfulness and concentration. But one can also consider the Brahmavihāras as separate, not as part of concentration meditation. If you want to find the material from early Buddhism though you should not be looking at the Visuddhimagga, which is a millennium newer. Just look at the material from the four major Nikāyas to start with.
but he’a the buddha, a soul that is so advance in cultivation. while he takes flight, we are still figuring out how to crawl. i think it really boils down to the individual’s level of cultivation.
I wonder if the deeper jhanas were the types of jhana that Gotoma rejects having practiced them for years before creating mindfulness of breathing. Interesting is that, after breath mindfulness, jhana is the term for both techniques and states of concentrative absorption. Gotama's reference to his childhood is a reference to 1st jhana as state during his first experience of breath mindfulness. Reference to jhanas as states is central to understanding Destruction of the Taints which is integral to breath mindfulness as affect regulation. Core affect is different from cognition (sense consciousness) so thought and speech are impediments to the stabilization and regulation of core affect. It's not like cognition goes away because they're insights but breath mindfulness alters the relationship between core affect and implicit memory as they function during perception which gets you to Gotoma's take on nothing, imo, and abiding in it. Brasington, not focusing on DoT as part of right effort, interprets emptiness from a Mahayana perspective which I see as an error.
Just look around you. Out of 100 people, how many are interested in Buddhism. Out of those interested in Buddhism, how many are interested in meditation? Out of those interested in meditation, how many actually learn and practice meditation with the kind of commitment and dedication required to achieve jhana? I'm one of those interested in Buddhism and meditation, but don't put in the time and effort required to achieve jhana. And I would say that most Buddhists are like me. ❤😂🎉😢😮😅😊
My attitude with all of this talk is .... CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF! If "see for yourself" isn't a "Buddhist Teaching" then I don't know what is. Buddha broke from the pack by doing just THAT. There are ALWAYS teachers who "won't" or "can't" who are willing to warn everybody off from trying... saying that it is a waste of time or "harmful". It is ultimately up to each of US to decide what is "TRUTH" from everything else.... Ask yourself what you are afraid of by "going deep"... What exactly are you afraid of finding by exploring deep into your own being, in meditation? And, I'm not suggesting anybody abandon "common sense" either. Just saying. Thank you, and smooth sailing. 😺🕵♂🧘🦄
Very interesting this seemed to put terms to states I’ve experienced . The lighter or first states are as described euphoria , dreamy yet one can think and walk . It’s the same state Thai chi or yoga puts one in. Interestingly enough its endorphin (the bodies natural opiates) being released. I can now release my own endorphins any time I choose. The deeper states discussed I also experienced once. I was meditating and concentrating on slowing my breath while picturing incense smoke slowing drifting in this figure eight pattern . I became nothing. I was completely unaware of anything- for how long I’m not sure, it felt like I really wasn’t breathing ,but then this white light appeared out of the black nothing and I had a very strong feeling of something powerful was about to happen... I then got a bit worried and pulled my self out. Came back into regular consciousness still sitting in full lotus . My friend that was in the same tent camping with me was like I was trying to talk to you for a while and you weren’t responding lol
I’m not sure about that but I highly doubt they are correct , endorphin release is similar to what you’re talking about it’s more euphoric than even opiates themselves because endorphins are stronger and have more affinity to the receptor sites( they bind completely) . Endorphin are easily released using Thai chi , hot tub, sex, spicy chili/foods , meditation, jogging / running for extended Periods , yoga etc etc all those things ,so I’m guessing it’s not some kind of natural mdma they just didn’t know how to describe it.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but I believe there are 8 states? The last 4 are a lot subtler and really not necessary if you want to use them access insight work. The first four will suffice. Also I have no practical experience of this as I am still yet to hold a stable nimitta!! 😂 ….. but I will keep sitting ardently. Thanks as always Doug
Sure! There are only four jhānas. The other four states are known in the early texts as "formless attainments", plus there is a fifth additional state, the cessation of perception and feeling. I've done videos on these if you are interested, you can see them (and some other related discussions) in this playlist: ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRiHHGTYuHmFs3pkjbpzzWtB
@@DougsDharma thanks so much. What I like about you Doug is you don’t just have the knowledge (obviously you have a very strong academic background) but you have a lot of wisdom. Thanks for all you share regarding the Dhamma 🙏🏼
KISS .. just keep it simple. Follow the breath, get back to it if you lose it, do it for as long as possible. At least an hour/day. Ignore all else, all odd things. The mind plays lots of tricks, but what you want is beyond mind. When the day comes, if ever, where you are tired of average progress, and you really want to see if you can attain anything, set aside a day, and by any means necessary, follow each and every breath for 12 hours or so, and then sit for a few hours. It's critical to get locked in so you don't even miss one breath. If the breath, body, and mind vanish, keep going if you can. What you want is even beyond meditation space 🙂👍 when body+mind are gone, your going to have to investigate your way beyond meditation space. This is when you need to switch from Samatha to Vipassana meditation, or at least, because of the unclear usage of the latter, from concentration to investigation. You can't concentrate your way out of meditation space 🤔😁 so far as I know.
There seems to be a bit of ordinary elitism in the later description. It seems to be common among those who adopt pursuits as part of their need to feel exceptional. Oatmeal is good for the heart, but not if one eats quick oats, or uses sugar, and or butter. Only whole or steel cut oats without adornment 😉
Ultimately all practices including meditation are done for an idea of who you think you are, the thought, concept or object. So they lead nowhere other than right here. And without labouring the point there is no here, or there for that matter.
For anyone looking for an excellent book on the subject of jhanas and concentration states as well as morality and insight practice, check out mastering the core teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram or spend some time on the dharma overground forums.
You mention the Abhidhamma is added later. But let me suggest a practical reality. How easy is it to recite and memorize a speeches worth of a lifetime of a person? How easy is it to translate all of them? How easy is it to translate and memorize all of them. The loss of knowledge across translations and memorizing them are in exponential decay. It is not logical to assume they are added later only to pali text because they are not translated. Chinese are second order translations from Sanskrit and the higher chances are they did not translate everything from Pali to Sanskrit to Chinese.
Abhidhamma is of course seemingly complicated and difficult to understand. But it does not mean that it is "Unreliable". It is like Donald Trump saying election is unreliable just because he doesn't understand it. Instead i think it is better to study and practice what is logical and comprehensible for our own strengths. Afterall Abhidhamma is not essential for Nirvana and yet it is the tabulated and well-structured record of purest form of canonical knowledge out there. It is not meant for laypeople and it is not suppose to be in lay-man's terms because it is meant for god's. But it is the pinnacle of canonical expression of knowledge if somebody want to study it carefully. I haven't seen such a well structured and comprehensive thesis of knowledge even in today's standards. My observation is that it can only loose and misinterpreted increasingly rather than enhanced / further improved as of in theoretical sciences where you invent and experiment continuously. There is no more advance experiment to be performed after the Buddha. Every thing is impermanent so that it gradually become incomprehensible.
Hi, it's possible to not have breath ...you are underestimating. The body draws in very imperceptibly oxigen needed...prob is one looks and wants breath ...more practice ...the full potential of a human being is incredible...we haven't really touched on it ...🏵️
There can be many mistakes when interpreting jhana or nimitta. Mistakes of Pa Auk Meditation has more details about common mistakes for nimitta. Watch the first uploaded video
And have you considered a Buddhist/philosophy podcast in interview form? Endless opportunity with potent discussion. Tibetan, Theravada, Socratarian, Pope Francis style catholics, stoics, American mega church
It's possible, but my good friend Ted Meissner has been doing such an interview podcast for years now, he's much better at the format than I would be! 😀
“~24:52 Breathing seizes in 4th jhana” now you see why I kept saying in one of my earlier comments, that, there is no breath meditation in Buddhism. This is breathing has more metaphorical meaning than just breathing air in and out. There is a big difference in seize of breathing and subtle or quiet breathing, you can’t just make up things like that you know 😊.
@Neal Murfitt Exactly Neal, because at the deep state of 4th jhana, all your external sensors are off so you can’t feel anything external other than your thoughts, that includes breathing. Breathing meditation (or aanapana sathi) meditation in Bhuddhism has deeper meaning than just breath in and out.
@@VeritableVagabond Hi VeritableVagabond, thank you for asking the question. I explained that in one of my previous comments as well. Ānāpānasati or as many calls it, “the breath meditation” in Buddhism has nothing to do with breathing air in and out. In Pali Ānāpānasati sutta there are two important words, one is “assa” and the other is “passa” these two words are homonyms in Pali, they have meanings of breathing in and out as well as take something in to mind (adopt) and put something out from mind (let go). But in translation to Sanskrit these words translated as “Ashwaasa” and “Prashwasa” that has the exact meaning of breathing in and out. The reason for this is because the lay people who did this translation thought that buddha meant breathing in and out because the sutta has the name Ānāpānasati which is the breath meditation described in brahmin meditation practices. They never bothered to consider two important things. First is that why buddha introduce same breath meditation brahmins had after he explored these teachings for years and found out that was not the way to nibbana. Second, they totally disregarded Ven. Saariputta’s very detailed explanation of “assa” and “passa” in Seela sutta. So, what do we have to adopt and let go from our mind to attain nibbana according to Ven. Saariputta? He explains how to [adopt] non-lustful, non-hateful and non-delusional (alobha, adwesha, amoha) thoughts according to Thrilakshana and how to [let go] lustful, hateful and delusional (lobha, dwesha, moha) thoughts according to Thrilakshana by developing four jhana in detail.
@@VeritableVagabond Very high level, that’s correct VeritableVagabond, but Ven. Saariputta is very specific in how to do this in Seela sutra. It has to be done according to Thrilakshana, after someone adopted right view (samma dhitti) and it is difficult to explain in a RUclips comment. He explains how to practice this and go up to fourth jhana where your “assa” and “passa” stops because your mind now does not have unskillful tendencies anymore (temporarily of course). This has mistakenly taken as your breathing stops. How gullible people can be right? 😊. This is why fourth jhana is the place where you can truly experience the state of nirvana.
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Completely by accident I experienced very strong almost overwhelming pitti on my 1st silent retreat. I felt as though I was floating and every cell in my body was vibrating and ringing. I felt so refreshed and so happy for weeks after. It was mind blowing. The next retreat I went on I also experienced it but it wasn't overwhelming which was good as the previous experience was a bit too much and caused me insomnia. This was about 8 years ago. It was enough to cause me to commit to practising for life. Insight meditation and Buddhism is my life now. Recently I've been listening to Leigh Brassington and meditating 2-3 hours a day at home to try and bring about the conditions for the jhanas again. I am feeling some very mild buzzing sensation so far. It's very difficult to be aware of but not craving it too much. It seems that it's not about trying to get anything but more about completely letting go at which point you slip into it.
Exactly, it can feel so pleasant that we want it back immediately ... so it never arrives! 😄
I had a similar situation, I achieved a state that was so pleasant, but like everything it was impermanent. If you want to be given everything, you have to give everything up. You can become attached to these states, and craving them is real, as these states are better than the strongest drugs, sweeter than the finest fruits, brighter than the nearest stars.
How deep? As deep as possible. Dont be afraid to let your mind keep sinking down into Samadhi; it cant drown down there in the deep, it can only rest.❤️
🙏😊
I’m glad I’m seen this, I swear I be getting scared as shit when I can only feel my breath😂
Great video and discussion! I have no strong opinion as to how important they are in ones buddhist practice but I will say from my personal experience that "entering" these states (at least I believe I did, but I found out afterwards reading buddhist litterature that they are Jhanas) was one of the most profound, you could even say life altering experiences in my practice. The pleasure/joy I experienced when in these states is really unmatched compared to physical or emotional pleasures or states I've encountered in the "normal world". Most importantly, what it did for me, was that it opened my mind to the fact that there are states of consciousness that I was completely ignorant of, and it taught me to be more humble in my practice and understand how much I have to learn and discover.
Yes that makes a lot of sense Alexander, thanks!
Agreed. That and recognizing rigpa
Regarding walking in jhana, the "glow" you mentioned is real, there is an after-state one has after leaving jhanas, it is a state of contentment and joy and clarity which lingers for some minutes or up to half an hour after leaving the jhanas.
From the thumbnail - are jhanas easy? As someone who has entered the "light" jhanas, I would like give my opinion and an elaborate explanation of how long I think it could take to master the jhanas. I want to first point out that these "light" sutta jhanas are not "light" at all. As someone who has as a younger person taken MDMA several times, I can say jhanas are "stonger" even than that, they are certainly altered states of consciousness, and the rapture, joy and contentment I felt in them are of a certain kind that I never feel in daily life, these are noticeably "higher" versions of those feelings. I can't speak to the experience of "hard" / "heavy" / Visuddhimagga-style jhanas.
What I would say time-wise is that jhanas can be mastered in less than a year, if one does regular practice, meaning meditating almost every day. Meditating for how long? Well at first it's short, several minutes, but at developed levels it means meditating for an hour and later two hours, or maybe even several hours.
I would say practical steps would look like this:
- At first one can spend a week or two or three mastering the relaxation of the body, this is a one, two, three or up to five minutes meditation, doesn't need to be longer.
- Then one should practice for several weeks the meditation process itself (gently returning of the focus onto the breath when it wanders), one can start with doing this for one or two minutes, then slowly increasing until one does 10 - 15 minutes of meditation (after a 1 or 2 minute relaxation of the body).
- It might take an additional month of practicing meditation for 10-15 minutes almost every day to start getting into access concentration, depending on how anxious the person is in general.
- Then one should spend several weeks or a month mastering getting into access concentration and staying in it for 10, 20, 30 minutes.
- Then one needs several weeks of training oneself in the 'gladdening the mind' step, which is trick to get into jhanas from access concentration. As one masters this step, the meditation sessions are hour long or more, like 10-15 meditation plus 20-40 minutes of access concentration plus 5-15 minutes for the gladdening to unfold and the 1st jhana to happen.
- Then one needs several weeks in mastering the first jhana. Mastering it doesn't increase the meditation time, bc one can stay in it only for 10, 20, 30 seconds, bc it's a very intense and ecstatic state.
- Then one spends several weeks mastering entering and staying in the 2nd jhana. This jhana is much calmer than the 1st one and one can stay in it for 10, 20 minutes for sure.
- Then one spends several weeks mastering entering and staying the 3rd jhana. This one and the 4th one are the core of jhana practice. You get in them and stay in one of them for some time, half an hour, an hour, maybe even more, and then you get out of the jhanas. Then you have some time, 10, 20 minutes, there is a residual effects of the jhanas, where the mind is very calm and clear and one can think about various things. As far as I understand it, Buddha's point was that this time should be used to think about core Buddhist teachings. Tho a person can use it for whatever, like listening to music or going for a walk in a park, and this state of mind will make such experiences much more vibrant and impressive.
- About the 4th jhana I don't know, I never mastered even entering it, let alone staying in it, I entered it only several times, I could almost say by chance. And I don't have time to practice jhana meditation any more, even this short version. The not short version would be to stay in access concentration for an hour and a half, or two or even three or more hours, before going into the jhanas, this makes the experience of the jhanas a bit different, they are more 'smooth' and 'wide', it takes less mental space to focus on them, IDK how to explain it really, tho I did it only a few times..
Regarding nimittas, yes, when approaching access consciousness if one is meditating with eyes closed - shapes and colors and lights start to appear, and then like a white circle or a tunnel starts to form as one gets into access concentration. When entering the 4th jhana there is a gentle spreading of white light all around, as if someone increased the brightness setting.
Thanks for your experience Zeleni! 🙏
Hi, I want to ask you a couple of questions if that's alright. It sounds like this matches very closely to what's taught in the visuddhimagga. However I've read a few places that the instructions in there were originally geared towards meditation using a kasina specifically. That being said I have read the visuddhimagga and several early commentaries on the canon which do not corroborate very well with each other. My question is, have you trained using a kasina? Also, in my own experience, I hardly ever get visual effects resembling what I've heard described in the "light jhanas" but I too have done MDMA my fair share of times and my "nimitta-less" jhana is often more pleasurable and preferrable that those experiences as well. I think my point is is that I can't consider the light jhana wrong by any means as it obviously does the job, I just think the visuddhimagga's description of the nimitta does not match my own experience and seems to be Buddhagosa's attempt at applying the technique and expectations of kasina meditation to the practice of breath meditation. What do you think about this?
Thank you!
Did practice of the Jhana increased your lucidity in dreams or remove the need for dreams while sleeping?
@@mackenlyparmelee5440 Afaik Visuddhimagga-style jhanas are entered by using mental images of a nimitta, and are allegedly much deeper states of concentration, where you lose your perception of the outside world and the intuitive sense of time. I've never used kasina purposefully, tho when I when I started meditating I would use visual focus, I would look at a chair, or shelf, or a wall, and the wall one was basically kasina. But I mostly used body relaxation and breath focus.
Doug, for those who are interested, just like to expand on what you are saying at ~18:45 with my own experience. In each Jhana there are 2 stages. first is the normal state and the second is the deep state this is also called jhana and jhana samapaththi in early text. In normal state, all your senses (5 + mind) are open, you can see, hear, smell, feel, taste and think. You can even walk and talk, but your mind is in such a state that it is bound by the boundaries of jhana state. Your senses do not give you same feelings as you would normally get when you are not in a jhana state, this is one of the things that is hard to explain in words. The second, or deep (samapaththi) state of jhana is where your external five senses get switched off. You won’t be able to see, hear, smell, feel or taste and you will lose the control to your body. You can stay hours and hours like this without even moving a single body part. The only sense available to you at that time is your mind but it very different to the mind you normally have. It is very sharp, fast and highly controllable. I will leave the rest for you to discover. 😊
Thanks!
Excellent discussion of a difficult subject! Thank you. It seems to me that much of the difference interpreting jhana as "deeper" or "lighter" only deals with the first jhana (Leigh Brasington notwithstanding). Specifically, whether any thought is possible in the 1st jhana. I think most of this difference can be explained if we just assume the "no thought" group are just mistaking the 2nd jhana for the 1st jhana. As Ajahn Chah said about samadhi, the books and scholars make it sound very organized and linear, but when you experience it, it is more like falling out of a tree with lots of things all seeming to happen at once or in random order. Achieving jhana is very much a threading the needle kind of thing - there are lots of almost-there ways, and a rather narrow but very real path to success, and different people will describe that path in different ways that make sense to them. However, it is a very real thing and very worthwhile, you just need to keep aiming the thread at the hole in the needle until you figure out what works and what doesn't.
Thanks Brian! Good thoughts there.
Thank you. I agree with you. In my short experience I've gotten closer to pleasant body sensations by feeling my whole body and not just a small area of it where there are already some pleasant feelings as suggested by Basington and others. But Leigh Basington does mention that we need to find the exact method that will work for us individually
@Gideon Pioneer My experience is that many different practices lead to different places - most are nice places, but if Nibbana is the goal, there many practices which do no lead there and some even make you think there is no such thing because one seems to have reached the end but it's not Nibbana. I do agree that if you keep an open mind, always ready to let go of that which no longer works and move on, and keep the goal of ending suffering as the goal, then you will find the path that works.
In my experience, visions don't require very deep meditation, but focusing your awareness down to an infinitesimal point is extremely difficult, and only lasts for a moment. As soon as you become aware of what you're experiencing, your awareness is no longer narrowed down to a single point, so the experience ends.
Yes, though I don't know much about this from personal experience, I've heard others say that once the discursive mind steps in, the absorption ends.
@@DougsDharma why are non-dualists always so dualistic?
The first few times i tried meditation i would see images pop out at me a few minutes in mainly people i had never met. They startled me every time so i could never meditate past 5 minutes.
@@gunterappoldt3037 because non dualism does not exist
Mistakes of Pa Auk Meditation. Has details about nimitta and correct understanding
It seams to me that the question is whether it as helping you “See things as they really are”
Thank you for turning the wheel. ☸️
I do what I can! 🙂
My experience after a day of heavy meditation was that I had a weird body high of feeling very light. Only rivaled by the sensation what I felt when I got robbed one time. Heavy meditation for me always leads to extreme clarity of mind; easy focus, good temper, good mood, etc. And from my experience and the scientific literature I've read it seems that combining focused attention meditation and mindfulness meditation is more powerful, then one kind of practice on themselves.
Yes, if you do meditation for awhile the mind does clarify itself as you say. I find it can also help to do exercise and then meditation.
@@DougsDharma I feel exercise to truly be the meditation of our age(as in lifestyle intervention you can use to reduce suffering/improve wellbeing). I believe there were some zen schools who used running to achieve meditative states( aka runners high). Meditation and exercise both simply modulate the nervous system. It's moving your brain function from lower order to higher order brain regions. I do meditation, aerobic and anaerobic exercise. The mental benefits are priceless! Fasting also is good for the body and mind.
Excellent video. I feel 1 out of 100 is a reasonable ratio. Its easy to achieve Jhana once training is completed. A city like Sacramento can easily have 5000 people who achieved Jhana. It takes me a few days of seclusion to get there.
Yes, maybe so!
Doug, thanks for contributions to understanding Buddhism. As a person who was brought up as a Buddhist I think long before medication, one needs to improve mindfulness, compassion and empathy and contentment. Then the practice of meditation will become easier. Having not perfected any of the above mentioned traits, I find it difficult to practice meditation. As a true Buddhist I stand to be corrected!
It all goes hand-in-hand, improving one improves the others. At least that's been my experience! 🙏
11:55 - why was Gautama Buddha’s father “working out in the fields” when he was the ruler of the entire Shakyamuni clan?
This is one reason why scholars don't believe the Buddha's father was a "king". He was probably a relatively wealthy landowner.
Fascinating - what’s really helpful for me as a relative newcomer, is the context setting and historical overviews- as you say in other videos too often things that developed over a 1000+ years are presented as a single amalgam, and controversial ideas are presented as fact without letting on things are contested.
Glad the historical overview is helpful for you, Dave. Yes, it can be very confusing otherwise.
Thank you so much for such valuable information and study!
My pleasure! 🙏
Having worked as an academic psychologist for over 40 years I tend to treat the kinds of questions you discussed here as empirical issues. In other words, we need some data to decide between the alternative views, as you briefly hint at towards the end of the episode. And it is possible to get some insights into the states of mind of other people. For example, Steve Taylor of Leeds Becket University has been investigating the awakening process for years and has developed the Inventory of Secular/Spiritual Wakefulness (which he calls WAKE), as a measure of someone's degree of awakening or enlightenment.
Great, yes thanks!
Thanks Doug, for your fearless journey into what is an often fraught topic of discussion, even amongst those following The Lord Buddha's recommended path. The prefix Samma, as in Samma Samadhi, is the factor that imparts it's transformative "spin" upon the cultivation of what would otherwise be mere (micca)samadhi or Jhana, not conjoined with the Buddhist Path. As you mentioned, Alara Kalama, one of The Buddha's teachers, could reach some of the so called Arupa(formless) meditations. As I understand it, he could have only reached those lofty arupa meditations, having already achieved the four Jhanas and also been fairly adept at them as a prior attainment. I am happy to stand corrected upon that point, however, Alara Kalama's meditative attainments did not result in the end of suffering for him or the Bodhisattva following his instruction. The context that the prefix Samma establishes in the Buddhist practice, is indeed what brought The Lord Buddha to the overcoming of Dukkha(existential suffering). Samma Samadhi, Jhana, helps to glue, or unify all of The Noble Eightfold Path factors into a functioning lens that helps to clarify The Four Noble truths, anicca, anatta and dukkha. Doug, As you mentioned, This permeates the whole of one's existence, whether in Jhana or cooking a meal. This is it's purpose. The Wheel of Dharma set in motion by Buddhist practice, destroys the impediments to freedom.
You're very welcome John, thanks for your comment! Yes, the question as to whether Aḷāra Kālāma required jhāna for the formless attainments is another fraught topic. My own thought has been that perhaps he achieved them through something like the space kasiṇa rather than through jhāna, but there is no evidence in the texts one way or the other so all we have to go on is supposition. 🙏
@@DougsDharma Seems like a difficult topic given the lack of pre-buddhist texts regarding the subject. I would assume though that the technique of Jhana was likely already known before the Buddha's time. I'll give a couple of reasons for why I think so: First, it's definitely imaginable that the states can be "stumbled upon" by people already trying to meditate. If you're trying to focus on the breath as a meditation object, I think it's fairly natural that you will try to both make the act of breathing itself comfortable and realize that doing so strengthens the concentration. The samana movement was in full swing during the Buddha's time, so it's hard to imagine that someone didn't come accross it by accident at least once. Second is that in the canon, you don't really ever see the formless attainments mentioned apart from the fourth jhana specifically, which suggests that it was considered necessary for the formless attainments. Like I said before though, there are a couple of instances in which the formless attainments aren't mentioned alongside the Jhanas, most notable the culasunnata sutta, which descrbes very clearly the expansion of awareness but does not mention cultivating jhana prior to that specifically. This has a couple of implications logically but let me digress and speak from experience. The formless attainments can be had without the practice of Jhana. It's pretty easy to manipulate your awareness so that it's expansive. However, for it do be of real benefit, especially past the realm of infinite consciousness, your concentration has to already be strong enough to stay with an object despite it not being particularly pleasurable. At the level of nothingness and neither-perception nor non-perception, the object is too vague and refined for the unconcentrated mind to settle in. So I think Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramputta then must have developed their concentration to a very high degree and given my first point that jhana seems like a natural progression of breath meditation, it seems likely that the Buddha's teachers did indeed practice and teach jhana.
I've been meditating for the last 3 years. About 30 minutes to two hours daily. I find it quite hard to map the descriptions of the jhanas on my own experience. I feel very strongly that I have experienced everything up to the 7th Jhana (definitely up to the 4th) but the lines are kind of blurry. Anyways, I started getting into the first Jhana by week 2 of my meditation practice and from there it just went faster and faster. However, after achieving the most impressive (even though that may not be the highest) level I could manage (absolute bliss rushing up my spine, hot and wonderful, no body, only searing white light around me, no thoughts at all, just existence - in a nutshell), I guess I got scared. I had nobody to guide me. I literally just sat down with a meditation app (Waking up - by Sam Harris) and after sitting for about an hour crazy stuff started happening. It was overwhelming. So, in the following months (close to a year), I never got anywhere close again. Now, I am slowly building up to it again and there is steady progress. It was confusing for a while but I feel like I can balance it better now.
Here's my theory of why this happened so quickly to me (PLEASE correct me if this is nonsense): I am a philosophy teacher and was very well grounded in materialism and science. At some point I had heard too much (or just enough) about that marvelous thing that is meditation. So I said: "Fuck it! I am going to give this nonsense a go!" Then all of the above happened to me and only after that I started reading up on it a little. I may get this totally wrong but from what I understand, you need to see the world in a certain light in order to enter the Jhanas. What I read was pretty much exactly my world view only worded strangely with a lot of foreign terms. It seemed to me that my education and personal research in the fields of philosophy and especially psychology shaped me into exactly what you need to be in order to be ready for entering the Jhanas. Things like "no free will", "a universe that just happens", "past, present and future existing all at once", "consciousness being fundamental to all of existence", just to name a few beliefs. Please respond if any of that rings true or even if it sounds like complete nonsense.
I had some experiences that match your descriptions pretty closely. My first heavy experiences almost came out of nowhere and left me pretty baffled for a while. I fell deeply in love with this state. But It was kind of unattainable. Only once in a while I went deep again. But it was never of the same quality. Still, I could say, that I am in the same phase of "slowly building up to it" , as you say it. I guess the ingredient to achieve this regularly is "right effort". Ajahn Maha bua of the thai forest tradition describes it as follows (from his Arahattamagga - path to arahantship):"At certain times it seems to progress smoothly, almost effortlessly, only to become suddenly and unexpectedly difficult. It falters, and all apparent progress disappears. With its confidence shaken, the mind is left floundering. However, if we use a meditation-word as an anchor to solidly ground our mindfulness, then the mind is sure to attain a state of meditative calm and concentration in the shortest possible time. It will also have the means to maintain that calm state with ease.[...]Due to the intense effort I exerted in the beginning, my mind succeeded in attaining a calm and concentrated state of samãdhi. It felt as substantial and stable as a mountain.[...]My practice began to deteriorate, but I didn’t know how to reverse the decline.[...]I lacked a meditation-word to act as a precise focus for my attention.[...]I focused on the mental repetition of buddho to the exclusion of everything else. Buddho became my sole objective even as I made sure that mindfulness was always in control to direct the effort." In short: his method was to repeat buddho in the mind from dawn till dusk without a break. This exertion of right effort creates the necessary conditions. You must have continuous mindfulness of your meditation object: the breath, the body, the mantra (e.g. buddho like above) or anything that suits you. The key is to be always aware of what the object does. Then your meditation will advance. A monastery is obviously a great place.
Jhana is not something to explain, or talk about or brag out about but to bee experienced. anyways, breathing and heartbeat stops at 4th jhana, that happened to you?
In at least one of your past lives, you might have attained jhana. Otherwise, it is impossible to get to jhana within a short time.
Some monks need 12 years!
There’s only 4 stages, so if you got to 7 - then you are not only an enlightened, Nirvana attained Arhat, but an almighty über Buddha. Further, if you even got anywhere close to the 4th Jhana, you certainly wouldn’t be commenting about it (as said Huineng in the Platform Sutra)
@@aeopmusic Yeah, as I've said: it feels a little more like 4 to me but I have found categorizations that include 7 and these categorizations also kind of make sense. On that second part of your comment about not commenting on 4th Jhana... Oh man, I have to giggle right now. Believe me, I am super aware of the irony or even insanity of even attempting to talk about that. However, since the Jhanas are nowhere near a stable thing for me and since I have pretty much zero guidance in that area, I am kind of confused and still feel the need to talk about it. For guidance but also validation (hello Ego!). As I've said, it is not stable for me. I can get there but every time I get sucked back into ego-mode and that ego wants to express itself and be heard. It is extremely frustrating.
Do you think you could talk about how Buddhism went from more of a philosophy to a religion?
Buddha's original teachings were simple like follow your own path with the right intention and be truthful. It would be impossible to control a population that finds meaning only within themselves
Thanks for the suggestion Nathan, I'll put it on the list!
Buddha's teachings are just living life method and not religion.
@@scottkraft1062 with base of bhavana (mind training) practicing regularly 🙏🏼
@@scottkraft1062 with base of bhavana (mind training) practicing regularly 🙏🏼
It's interesting that I found this video. I recently read an article about someone that went to a retreat and was practicing jhana meditation. The article said that he experienced severe states of anxiety and ptsd. To be honest it was rather worry some.
Yes I've heard of a few such cases, though to my knowledge they are rare. That said, this is one good reason to practice jhāna with an experienced teacher.
I am a beginner and I have gone to the first jhana several times , it was not hard , just 30 m meditation before it, and the nimata was there.
That's great Mahammad. Good for you.
I'm going to bring up a concept in lucid dreaming where you meditate "in dream" so then, you could be walking "in dream" while meditating "in dream" consciously but not in material reality. . I recently decided to experiment more with meditating after achieving lucidity. So many "states" have occured to me while lucid. Is Jana lucid states? not sure.
Jhāna isn't a dream state, it's a waking state of deep meditation. I imagine it might be possible to achieve jhāna while dreaming though, interesting thing to contemplate ...
🙏
9:51 Bikkhu Sujato: virtually nobody practices visuddhimagga-style jhanas
11:48 Buddha enters first jhana as a young boy (mythology says his father was participating in a plowing festival at the time)
14:23 the Buddha describes walking while in the fourth jhana
25:57 uppakilesa sutta MN 128: the Buddha had difficulty entering jhana
29:13 Bikkhu Brahmali on walking while in jhana
You skillfully handled this controversial topic Doug! And l liked you linked into the Suttas (although having recently read MN128 I can’t discern anything concrete from it that would suggest either argument). It’s difficult to interpret.
I can only speak to having attained light Jhana’s 1-4. Those practise are undeniablly helpful - they teach you a progressive letting go of formations with regard to self. I cannot see how the practise isn’t helpful. They develop your factors of enlightenment.
My friends who practise hard Jhana’s do not acknowledge my light Jhana’s. That’s okay - I don’t know. I would like to go to Pa Auk one day for 3-6 months so I can compare apples to oranges for myself - but that not available to me right now.
I would recommend trying Brasington’s practise and ‘see for yourself’. And if you can and feel motivated - go practise hard Jhana too!
Metta beings!
Thanks so much, Brendan! 🙏
Very nice, indeed! Thank you, Doug.
You're very welcome photistyx! 🙏🙂
Thanks for this wide-ranging discussion of jhana, mentioning various relevant perspectives and texts. One small point I disagreed on was in your discussion of the Upakkilesa Sutta. In this, the light and forms that the Buddha referred to were not presented as things to overcome, but to stabilise, by overcoming a range of impediments that include the 5 hindrances but go beyond these too. They clearly deal with the same kind of thing as the 'nimittas' described in the Visuddhimagga, and which also arise to those, for example, practising the the Samatha Trust tradition of the UK (samatha.org) and beyond, based on a Thai tradition. I belong toand teach in this tradition and am familiar, in practice, with light arising when the mind becomes free of the hindrances and simple visual forms arising. I would not see these as 'visions', but mental impressions that arise from close attention to a focus of mindful concentration (usually the breath).
As a scholar, I have written on jhana and issue of how deep it is:
Thanks much for that clarification, yes I guess I didn't say that very clearly. I didn't mean one should literally overcome them but rather that they weren't the aim of the meditation and the Buddha struggled with them. I think by "visions" I'm intending to mean what you're calling "mental impressions". Since they are in the visual field in this case I'd call them "visions", though I've been told nimittas don't always have to be visual. Perhaps you know more!
Interesting talk, thanks. Meditation practices or techniques are always facinating. Norman Fischer gave a talk at Tassajara on the Parinirvana Sutra, the occasion was the end of the winter practice period at that Soto Zen monastery. In that sutra, as Doug noted, the Buddha's disciples can't decide if the great teacher is dead or deep in some jhanic state of absorption. It's Norman F. belief that in the course of long sesshins, Zen students experience jhanic states but have no frame of reference or vocabulary to label them as such. Also Soto Zen students are taught not to engage or fixate on altered states or visions. What I wonder is how much of jhana is the power of suggestion. If you hang out with Zen types, on long retreats you experience "kensho" or satori. If you go on retreats with Leigh B. or other jhana teachets, you experience the 4 jhana stages. If you are in the world of Vipassana, then you achieve liberation through a deep intuition of anicca or impermanence. (Assuming that we are all accomplished meditators! ) I have no experience with jhana retreats myself, I did read Leigh's book and wrote him asking this very question. Very accessible nice guy.
Yes I do imagine some of it is the power of suggestion. How much, I don't know. At the end of the day, what counts is how the practice resolves itself internally and externally through one's calmness and behavior.
@@DougsDharma In zen the masters say you have to be in "dhyana" all the time. Shikantaza all the time.... while working, walking or sitting. That's is a way of life and a certain social organization (work , resources and so on). So I would like you to speak about the social organisation of the sangha and its relation to achieve dhyana. Budda was very concious of the "material reality" (material, law, power). In the urban zen temples is very difficult to achieve a continuous practice.... but there are "gold stantards" like Muho of Antai Ji.... Hacemos lo que podemos (we do what we could...)
In my understanding, shikantaza is more akin to mindfulness (sati) than absorption (jhāna).
I do think you have a great a point here. If I may give a little background: the light jhanas come from the visuddhimagga, which was written almost 1000 years after the Buddha died. The description found in here for breath meditation (i.e. seeing a visuall nimitta) seem to be much closer to what's described in the canon for kasina meditation. Buddhagosa does indeed describe the technique of kasina meditation and it is nearly identical to the description of breath meditation. However, the canon,s description of breath meditation is extremely dissimilar to the VM's. When I look at it in context, I have to conclude that Buddhagosa tried to ascribe the experience of kasina to the technique of breath meditation. Again, the canon does not corroborate the visuddhimagga with the exception of kasina meditation. The "nimitta" as described in the canon simply meant "sign" or "object of meditation". Now I want to stress this very much: the light jhanas as practiced by readers of the visuddhimagga are not wrong in any way, BUT if you want to practice breath meditation, you're better off sticking with the canon as your guide. What you've described as states that could be confused as death are way deeper than jhanic concentration, and fall into what's call nirodha samapatti, or cessation of perception and feeling. If you follow the canon's instructions, the only time you are focusing or paying any attention to a "light" would be practicing kasina meditation. It is mentioned nowhere in the context of anapanasati. It works, again it's not wrong, but in my opinion, expecting to see a nimitta like that is going to make things harder. Follow MN 119 for breath meditation. As far as vipassana-samatha, again this is something not found in the canon. When vipassana is mentioned, it is always paired with samatha. Trying to practice one without the other is like a bird trying to fly with one wing. This is not to step on practicioners of both, again all I'm saying is that if a vipassana meditator has acheived results, they have attained jhana, and if a samatha practicioner acheives results, they have gained insight into impermanence. You cannot seperate the two.
I have been meditating on and off most of my life, I recently decided to learn more to have a deeper practice. There are a lot of bad advice out there on meditation for sure. I have learned a lot of new things that didn't add much to the "just sitting" practice I learned in karate. Which is essentially meditation on emptiness. Recently I have started meditation on death, impermanence. As well as meditating while doing monotonous tasks that require little thought at work. I think it is complex, but it is automatic, it doesn't happen by much seeking, only by doing practice.
That's good to hear. It might also help if you can find a local sangha to practice with, assuming their approach is congenial to you.
@@DougsDharma I think this is a great idea, thank you Doug. I have followed your advice and located a Sangha on Plum Village website. I was always intimidated by going to the local temple, although their statues are so beautiful.
@@hammersaw3135 Sounds great!
Done meditation for years. Have no clue if I reach even the first Jhana to be true, but I’m a layman and not a monk. Reading the book ‘ A critical analysis of the Jhanas ’ chapter 4 goes into the first Jhana and it’s factors. I find it pretty challenging. Have a great day. 🙏🙏🙏
Yes it's hard to be sure, and anyway I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just practice. If you find a jhāna teacher they can guide you from their own perspective.
@@DougsDharma yes I will. My son is a monk. I discuss the dharma with him every so often.I gather in the end it doesn’t matter so much, as long as you just practice every day. The day I pass away I might be enlightened 😌 in the mean time I study the books of Jhana and other scriptures of Buddhism and practice yoga breathing techniques. Btw keep up the good work of information 👍🙏🙏🙏 and, have a great day.
Buddhaghosa was not a person who attained nirvana, not even a stream enterer for that matter according to his literature. Therefore, we can put aside whatever his claims on jhana (or Dhyana). I agree that achieving them are not easy, and some can’t even get to first jhana or get past a certain level of jhana no matter how much they meditate. This is particularly true when you are in third jhana, where your mind is in an extremely happy and satisfied state that no worldly matter can give you. When you are there, you don’t want to leave that place.
Despite all that, you can complete all four jhana if you follow the steps described in early text. Not only that, you can experience all the road signs exactly as described in the text. Leigh Brasington was spot on when he said there are two types of jhana and those are suthra (early text) style and Buddhaghosa style (or worldly jhana). This was clearly mentioned in early text. Latter is not useful to achieve nirvana.
You mentioned that you can have temporary liberation when you are in jhana, this statement is partially correct. You won’t experience the true liberation until fourth jhana, when you are there, you are out of time, out of space and out of world, the experience is difficult to explain in words and this is from my own experience.
Thanks Doug that's an interesting explanation of the debate between the 'deeper' and the 'lighter' folks. I wonder if you've considered doing a video on your own practice and describing your own experience of these matters?
Well I have talked about it a little in the past, though my experience of jhāna is very rudimentary.
You are correct, we don’t stop breathing in 4th Jhana. We stop being the body, we are no longer the experiencer, therefore we are not the breather, the body continues to breath and do whatever it does, while we beyond all things and completely equanimous, just neutrally aware. When becoming absorbed while walking, you will stop feeling footsteps, as a simple example.
Based on experience, deep jhana is preliminary for light jhana.
By closing the eyes, still the body, etc. One can attain silence of body, mind emotion in some sense. After that, when we finish the practice. The jhana-state remain (not always, jhana is not easy stuff).... thats how one can walk, talk, eat in jhana. Just like the emphasis of Zen Buddhism. Bring meditativeness into daily activities. It remains for few minutes or few hours. In my case, it happened few hours. Then it is gone. I am back to usual state of mind.
In that jhana state, when i talk, or walk i can clearly see the thoughts & emotional process happening inside. It come and goes. So it was very weird. As if there is two kinds of minds 'working simultanenously': one is the jhana-mind (the witnessing passive mind), and the second one is the normal mental mind (usual thoughts and emotional movement).
And the most interesting thing is in jhana state, all negative emotion (fear, anger, doubts) can be seen at that time it started to bubbling up. When it seen directly, by awareness, it just gone. The bubbles busted before they become bigger. No need to think this is bad, this is negative. No... It just busted naturally, effortlessly. Plus in Light Jhana state, there is a natural calm-peace-blissfullness happening, like flowing out from inside, or showering oneself from somewhere.
I think this Light Jhana vs Deep Jhana looks like a cardio workout. After doing 'right' cardio workout, our metabolism become faster, heart rate become faster. After we finished the workout, the heart rate is still high for minutes/hours.
Proper cardio workout = deep jhana practice
High heart rate state = state of light jhana
Maybe some practice goes directly to Light Jhana. Maybe that also possible. No need to use Deep Jhana practice. But i never tried that.
Once you have the taste of Light Jhana. You know what is it like to be in enlightened state, what kind of life you will live.
Thats what i know so far.. How come the light jhana state gone? Why it gone? How to prevent it gone? How to remain in Light Jhana state for 24 hours a day, is still mystery for me.
Yes, deep questions Sadikin, thanks!
Many thanks Doug, excellent discussion, very interesting and helpful. I would like to seek some clarifications if you please be able to help me. Early in your lecture, you mentioned that Buddhism refers to only 4 Jhana's. The 4 Jhana's you are referring to seem to linked with what are known as "Ruupawachara (form-aware) Jhana. As I have observed, some Theravadha Buddhist sermons refer to 4 more Jhana's which are called Arrupawachara (formless) Jhanas (Aakinchanyathana, Vinyathana, Aakasanyathana, and NevasanyaNasanyathana). It seems you are referring these to as Formless Attainments (but not Jhanas). Perhaps these Arrupawachara Jhanas (and ruupawachara as well?) stem from pre-Buddhism era (Hinduism?) Would you please be able to explain why do you think these would not be classified as Jhanas? Also, the later discourses and literature in Theravadha Buddhism seems to suggest there are distinct features of each of Jahana states that we can perhaps use to recognise the attainment of such states of mind while meditating (for example, the first Jahana is a state of mind with Vithakka-Vichara, Preetihi, Suka and Akagratha; whereas in second Jhana, there is no Vithakka-Vichara or Preethi). What are your thoughts on these distinct features? I am so sorry, I am new exploring these concepts, and from the top of my mind I cannot pinpoint where I have read / heard these concepts, hope you have come across these concepts in your research at some point. Many thanks.
I have a playlist where I go into the jhānas and formless attainments among other things, you can see it here: ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRiHHGTYuHmFs3pkjbpzzWtB
Results of Bhavana mind training practicing can be known from experiences of individuals at the time of Buddha. Because Buddha must had guided when individual shares his/her experiences and also to guide to go further in bhavana 🙏🏼
Thank you for your insights on this Doug, this was super informative and really helped me gain a solid understanding of the concept of Jhana :)
Great, glad it was helpful to you!
Embellishments and amplified commentary/interpretation of texts are Major obstacles of simplicity of practice
I used to experience first jhana without knowing what that was before starting a formal meditation practice. The more learned about the practice (TMI mostly), the less accessible the jhanas have become for me, even though I have progressed in all other areas. I will have to strengthen my attention (concentration) skill again probably. The past year my focus was more on wide awareness in order to stay as present and awake as possible. Now I need to bring both skills together without diminishing either of them. Jhanas are a powerful way of increasing mindfulness and their clarity makes life-altering insights accessible. I am not craving the jhanas anymore, like I did when they went away. But they sure would be welcome.
And in my experience talking while in jhana would definitely be possible. Once the mind sinks into the flow state of jhana, concentration stabilizes effortlessly.
Thanks Marc. As for talking, I think it depends partly on which jhāna we're talking about. Given the definitions, speech would almost certainly be impossible from the second jhāna onwards.
I would say the only way one could hope to verify a certain degree or type of Jhana, would be if there were certain trials or tests associated with each stage. If you fail the test, then you have not attained the appropriate level of concentration. What these tests would entail and who decides there validity would be the next controversy, which would ultimately lead to an appeal to authority by one master or another. Unless, of course, we can agree upon tests which the Buddha himself recommended, but I'm not a scholar so I wouldn't know about that. Maybe Doug will do a Video about it in the future.
As for this problem of Jhana depth, as it stands today, I really can't see a way to satisfyingly resolve the issue in an alternative way to testing. Maybe it's a mental impurity in itself, one of the comparing mind? Maybe we should never concern ourselves with the level of attainment of others? But this sounds impractical to me, for how would a meditation teacher train their Student?
Fascinating topic as always, Thanks Doug.
Yes, thanks Tormunn. Having trials or tests is an interesting idea, though I don't know of any in the early texts, so the Buddha himself wouldn't be of much help I'm afraid.
If I may, it's pretty counterproductive to try and verify what level of jhana you're in while you're practicing. If you're wanting to judge progress and whether a meditation session is good or not, the main thing to look at is what you did and how well it worked. The point of the jhanas is to steady and concentrate the mind and the way the jhanas work, if you've ever taken a behavioral psychology class, is by giving you a reward for doing a specific action, it this case piti arises when the mind pays attention to its object. The breath is good because the chances are high that you can find a spot or way of breathing that's pleasurable and this creates a feedback loop> The more you pay attention to it, the better it feels. The better it feels, the more you pay attention to it. When you've completely absorbed yourself in that task, you're cooking. It takes care of itself more or less from there. The pleasure can become "loud" in a sense. I prefer the term "full" (the Buddha often referred to piti as a type of food). When you're mind is full of course pleasure, it naturally starts to tend towards what I could call peace and calm through to contentment through to solidity. Different meditation sessions will produce different amounts of pleasure, and how much is there is really proportional to how much the mind needs to calm down. Sometimes it takes a lot, sometimes hardly any. But again I want to be clear, the end goal of meditation is not pleasure, rather pleasure is the tool that we can use to satisfy and calm the mind down. I would recommend reading the Kayagatasati sutta, MN 119, for a description. Don't judge a meditation session by how much piti arises, but rather how contented you became by doing it. Pay attention to what your mind really needs and whether you can help it to wean off of constantly needing to feed. Jhana is a heck of a way to do that.
This is one of the best videos on the subject that I've ever watched! 🙏🏻
The general discussion (necessary for enlightenment or not, how deep, etc.) is very tiring and only proves one thing: Jhānas are not sufficient for enlightenment. If the respective practitioners were enlightened, they wouldn't cling so desperately to their own ideas/views... 🌊
Yes well it's interesting how controversial these topics have become! Anyway thanks for your comment xiao mao. 🙏
Suffice it to say...You rise to the level of need....No more...No less. You don't under water a flower...anymore than you'd over water it. You do what you do to get the job done. Balance in all that you do.
Yes very important but not as easy as it sounds! 😀
Hi Doug, great exploration of the Jhanas here. I am wondering, to your knowledge, are you aware of any works in which there is a comparison between the deeper meditative states or the jhanas as they are described in Theravada Schools with the deeper meditative states as they are described in Mayahana Buddhism? I really enjoyed reading a book by a long term solitary Tibetan meditator named Gen Lamrimpa, but found they seem to employ different terminology and concepts to achieve these meditative states. For example, instead using the concept of the 5 Hinderences to address obstacles in meditation, they address these obstacles as the 5 Faults. The term jhanas also does not appear to be used in Mahayana commentaries. I feel there is a wealth of experiential commentaries on meditation in both Theravada & Mahayana Buddhism and I wonder of there is anyone who has really extracted the essence from both and been able to draw comparisons. Thanks for your videos, as always it was really informative
Thanks David! Yes, I'm not aware of a comparison between the deep mediative practices found in early Buddhism and those in Mahāyāna. (Theravāda is another thing, since Theravāda historically has been at times quite different in its practices from what we find in the early tradition). Some may simply be due to vagaries of translation. I'm not sure if the "5 faults" you mention is simply an issue of translation or not. My understanding has been that generally in Mahāyāna the jhānas have not been pursued to the extent they were in early Buddhism, but I don't remember where I heard this and it could be wrong.
I appreciate the response Doug. If anyone had made any comparisons, I figured you'd know about it. In 1988 Tibetan monk & contemplative Gen Lamrimpa led a one-year retreat at Cloud Center Retreat Center in Washington with a group of aspiring western meditators. The purpose of the retreat was to develope Calm Abiding. The book is a translation of talks given in the first two weeks of the retreat. Gen Lamrimpa doesn't mention the 5 Hindrances or the Jhanas as I am familiar with them. He details how to address the 5 Faults as 1) Laziness, 2)Forgetfulness (of the object of meditation), 3)Laxity & Excitement (as distractions), 4) Non-Application (of antidotes), 5) Application (over-application of antidotes). Again while he doesn't mention the Jhanas by name, he does describe a very similar state of pliancy which becomes available once the meditator develops very refined stability on an object of meditation. It was really a pleasure to read and I recommend this as supplementary reading to any aspiring meditator (Calming The Mind - Gen Lamrimpa). I appreciate your videos. You add much needed credibility and clarity to the subject of meditation and jhana in which there often isn't a consensus. I assume this lack of consensus indicates that as western meditators we still have a ways to go to develope our own understanding of meditation & you are leading the way! Keep up the great work! I will keep referring people to your channel every chance I get!
@@David-gv4fw Thanks much! There's a lot out there I don't know about so it may well be there is some paper that treats this in detail, if you find anything scholarly let me know!
why was the buddha's father working in a field as a king?
This is one of the reasons that scholars don't believe he was a king. He was probably a wealthy landowner in a position of some political power.
@@DougsDharma interesting! thank you!
In my experience, entering first jhana is like focusing your attention to an object of meditation manually. Entering second jhana is like stop thinking (being anxious) about whether the concentration is at your subject and just concentrating. Entering third jhana is like that not focusing the attachment of bliss or calmness achieved during earlier jhanas along with concentration. Entering the fourth, one only has achieved concentration alone, not the thought about concentration, not the feeling about concentration, not manually focusing your attention.
During all of these, you can contemplate about your state without losing it. But too much wondering would you fall back from jhana.
Deeper state of meditation such as meditation about nothingness. One is too absorbed in breathing that one forget to breath sometimes. This happens to me and I get heart shock everytime that happens. So I try not to enter such state. Anyway my interpretation about my experience can be wrong.
Thanks for the video.
You're very welcome sour soup. Thanks for your input!
This sounds more like micro stages leading to access concentration to me
This is in regards to the "one in a billion" from the Visuddhimagga: In his German translation of the Visuddhimagga the Ven. Nyanatiloka makes it very clear - clearer than in Nanamoli's translation - that this "numbers game" applies only to someone with no previous experience with the jhanas at all. Previous here meaning previous lifetimes. Therefore one might enter those deep states fairly easy, if one has practiced them in the past. And the Buddha himself has labelled the jhanas as "superhuman states."
Yes, I think that makes more sense, and indeed they were considered "superhuman states" by the Buddha. Of course, what he meant by that is that they are literally extra-ordinary, not that they require some sort of superhero ability to achieve. (Which does though still leave it open that they could be quite difficult to achieve and take a great deal of time and effort).
@@DougsDharma To me two things stand out when it comes to jhana in the EBTs: (1) their designation as superhuman states and (2) lying about them as a monastic immediately cuts one off from being a bhikkhu. At least according to the Theravada interpretation. That puts the jhanas one par with killing a human (and also on par with stealing an apple). This leads me to think that if they are easy to attain the language would be different.
To my mind, the mystery is solved if we consider that the Jhana state is not defined by "depth". It can happen in a variety of levels of what we consider depth of meditation and its effect and importance is essentially independent of it. Jhanas are defined by the state of mind achieved in them, as you mention. On the other hand, the formless attainments are a different classification which is based on "depth" as we usually think of it. Both classifications are to some extent independent of each other, that is, you may or may not experience one or more of the attainments while in jhana. But whether or not that is the case, that doesn't add or detract much to the Jhana experience. Just my two cents. Great video anyway, Doug
Thanks Francisco, yes I do think it's possible jhānas are simply approachable at different depths.
My understanding is that sound is a thorn for the first jhana in the sense that it makes it much more difficult for the practitioner to achieve the first jhana if sound is present. It is not something that will take you out of the first jhana when achieved, when in that state.
Interesting, thanks for the information Gustavo.
Would you consider a compare and contrast of epicurean practice vs early Buddhism? I believe Epicurus lived similarly to the Buddha in some ways. Keep up the good work!
I have done a few videos on Stoic practice and how it's different from early Buddhism. I might get to Epicurus someday! 😄
The real Jhanas are extremely difficult to attain and require parami and seclusion.
I’ve seen people suffer or give up just because they are not able to get Jhana.
I realize that we should practice for the sake of practicing and not be craving attainments .
If it’s meant to be, it will happen.
For me it has not happened and it’s ok 😀
Not this lifetime, next lifetime
Good attitude! Yes, striving for them will only cause more dukkha.
No don't give up I've it's not easy as it says but if you get right kamatahan and karamasthana related to your meditation form a Buddhism monk it would be much easier so don't give up try I've also experienced going near to 1st Dyana an it's amazing. Bu
RE: Shariputra's ability to describe the qualities of the four Dhyanas. Hindu linguistic metaphysics might have an explanation for this. It would be described as the levels of Vak (Speech).The actual state of Dhyana might correspond to Pashyanti Vak which is non-verbal, self-certifying, transcendental. The transitional state from to Dhyana to full waking might correspond to Madhyama Vak--a type of pre-verbal download, perhaps accompanied by symbolic colors, sounds, or images. Return to the full waking state and restoration of the articulate, reflective mind would correspond to Vaikhari Vak. Most likely, as a dhyana master, Shariputra had rapid recovery and download into speech--and so he had an extraordinary ability to describe levels of Dhyana.
Possibly, it's hard to say for sure. Also that text is probably late, so may not be wholly credible anyway.
When it comes to the 4th jhana. I don't think its breathing but voluntary breathing would break the 4th jhana. When you are in that state you are so focused that you are no longer conscious that you are breathing. The minute you can be conscious of your own breathing you are already out of the 4th jhana. Just my uneducated guess.
Yes, I'd agree that interpretation makes more sense to me as well. It's hard to say for sure what was intended in the early texts though.
Dear Doug, is there any mention of the jhanas in the Vimuttimagga?
I haven't looked, but it would surprise me if there weren't.
We need to understand how literal “no effort” is required for jhanas. Therefore a child going into these states are more likely than an adult. Know that the idea behind Zen Buddhism tends to be associated with requiring so much effort so as to push the meditator to a point of exhaustion and complete surrender, this then provides the “no effort” opportunity.
I have been in a state of pure equanimity, my consciousness had shifted beyond all things while walking to work, and persisted at work for a total of almost 3 hours. I came out of it when I had to prepare for a meeting, while trying to think at a planning level , I realised I couldn’t think, I then actively (volition, Will) forced the mind to restart, i observed the mind is a vortex which can be stopped and started at Will, but takes immense skill, which I don’t yet have, I fluked it this time.
The fact I was aware throughout the experience of “no experiencer”, as the body continued to go about its activities, tells me everything is predetermined, only without this experience the ego is tightly bound to the activities which makes the individual think what they do is there choice.
I heard Ajahn Amaro tried the Tibetan method of concentration, that includes nine stages, and said that was fairly similar to the Theravadha method, leading to the same results.
Interesting Alicia. I don't know the Tibetan method of concentration, and wonder about its history. Was it derived from later Buddhist ideas that were themselves derived from jhāna and the formless attainments? Or does it have some other historical root?
@@DougsDharma I really do not know. I guess they would say they come from some Sutras. What It is different in the method is that they explicitly say that a lot of isolation and silence is needed to develop concentration and several months, about 9 or 12 months living quite secluded, not even having frequent interviews with the teacher. 🙏
@@DougsDharma There are various systems used in the Tibetan traditions. The nine stages comes from the abhidharmakosa-era Mahayana Indians, which of course emphasized the union of calm abiding and insight. Given the considerable emphasis on insight into emptiness as understood as the "freedom from conceptual extremes", they had little use for anything beyond the first dhyana (until actual path of seeing, then an Arya makes use of the higher dhyanas).
The important point however with the Tibetan systems is that shamatha methods are virtually always in the context of Vajrayana and so empowerment, (implicitly) tantric anatomy, and emphasizing resting in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. As such there are major qualitative differences between how shamatha is understood and cultivated than in common Mahayana or Nikayana, and can include sadhana and mantra recitation.
I think one of the most interesting Tibetan approaches to concentration are the nongradual semdes, where all four stages of the system are progressed through each session until one can instantly enter and remain in the fourth. This works with the understanding that samadhi is a natural mental factor.
Thorns only poke you if they have a surface to penetrate.
Moving through a thorny patch in the woods, you can weave through softly, gliding by the thorns or maybe just gently be grabbed/scratched by them.
So to say, sound being a thorn, may not entail it being a nail in a coffin. It may not totally prevent us from stepping into meditative states, if we don’t meet it with tension.
See, if I brace against the thorn or pull away from it, well it hurts. I don’t have to always get stabbed by this thorn. Nor does sound or thinking prevent meditative states.
Running through the woods, you learn to be soft and supple. If its not thorns, it may be a slick rock under your foot. Going barefoot, welll then, that only adds more fun! :)
My take on thorns.
Could be! Thanks Man.
the arupa jhanas are mentioned in a Yogacharya text translated by Thomas Cleary. I don’t remember the name it’s been over 20 years since i read it. so that qualifies as a mahayana reference to them.
Interesting, thanks May.
Is there an assumption that everyone should have the same jhana experience/practice in the path to enlightenment? If so, is this assumption testable? Given the fact that everyone's gene is slightly different (so their brain structures are slightly different from each other), everyone's past experiences which shape what they are now (karma?) are also different, is it possible that everyone's path is also different?
If so, I'm afraid the real question is which way is best for an individual. It is likely that a person who could liberate following the "light jhana" path struggled his whole life in the "deep jhana" path instead, putting all his effort but got nowhere, or vice versa.
The Budhha was a great teacher who could show people the way they were suited for. I wish everyone reading this can find the teacher who can show the right path for them and have the diligence/perseverance to walk along the path.
Yes I agree Howling Fjord. Some people may be better suited to light and others to deep jhāna practice. The argument from the deep jhāna folks is basically that if you never try it you'll never know. I think that's also a good point, in that if one has time and interest, there's no reason not to try for a deeper jhāna. Either way though it's good practice.
Sir have you check or collaborate with on buddhawajana from Thailand. The monk and his team gathered grateful amount of oldest buddhism text from around the world. If you did thank you! 🙏🙏🙏
Well I do know someone who worked on some of that, yes.
Is sutta another name for Sutra?
Yes, "sutta" is the Pāli term that in Sanskrit is "sutra".
Thank you
🙏😊
In Mahayana scripture, the 6th patriarch tells Fada that there are not 3 vehicles (bodhisattva, pratyekabuddha, sravaka) but only one, which was divided into 3 “for the sake of deluded people”. Could it be the same with the Jhanas?
Why would we think so?
I have experienced a wide variation of body mind stillness with no directed thought and a neutral feeling tone. I think all were jhanic states based on the classic criteria. I think some people may be mistaking formless attainments for jhana or are limiting jhana to extreme body mind stillness states that go beyond the standard criteria. I think there is some ego puffery or whatever you called it going on where whatever level of body mind stillness I have achieved is the threshold for calling it jhana.
I think the first level of jhana is simply being able to maintain an anchor with mindfulness of the body, especially while going about your business. If you can’t take it off the cushion, it is of limited use.
Yes jhāna is a matter of great controversy among practitioners. The point though is to ease our tendency towards greed, hatred, and delusion. So that's what we should focus on.
Regarding the cessation of breathing, I have, on occasion gotten into such a deep session that I stopped breathing, which was fine until I was abruptly aroused from meditation due to my brain suddenly forcing me to breathe. I don't doubt that someone who trained properly for that particular state could actually accomplish many tens of minutes in it.
Yes, agreed Alex.
I'm not accomplished in jhana practice in any way, and even in rudimentary meditation my breathing stops when I start getting a little deep. Then my body forces me to breathe and thus my experience is not profound as there's discomfort and interruption. What does this indicate? And how do I go about this?
Same and when I did breathe it was a gasp, it scared me the first time.
Just found your channel 👍
Welcome! Glad to have you aboard.
I'm not aware of anywhere where Jhana would be considered unnecessary, especially considering that it's one of the eight path factors and one of the seven factors of enlightenment. However, my hunch is that the practice of insight meditation and the practice of samatha meditation were originally both called "jhana" as they follow the same format and progression willed to effortless, from joyous to equanimous.
It's possible Mackenly, so much of the history and relevance of jhāna is contested now.
@@DougsDharma If we look in the visuddhimagga, the concentration gained by doing vipassana meditation is still called either access or first jhana. There are other places in the canon that detail how nibbana can be attained directly from any one of the jhanas. Some sort of concentration is necessary though, and the concentration gained by vipassana practice, even in the visuddhimagga, is called "right concentration".
I wish I could reach a jhana state so I can see my past lives. I need to go to a Buddhist monastery hosting a meditative retreat. Having a hard time doing it on my own.
Is it possible to assist in achieving Jhāna with certain psychedelic drugs such as DMT?
I can't say for sure, but I would doubt it.
I've listened to this or one of your related ones several times now, with something nagging about it, and that is the equation of difficulty, depth, and inability to hear or walk or whatever. There is a part of my practice for which these equate -- although since I do my meditation standing, I'm not sure that I would not be able to walk so much as not do it, I do another form as well which is more akin to saṃāveśa, which is a samadhi in Vajrayana but not probably in "early buddhism".
After working on one of the states for quite a while, and it was only accessible to me after decades of daily (but not multi-hour per day daily) practice, seems more like it is "next to" the other states of consciousness, or "outside" of them or something, in that from it, I can check my watch, shut off the bell, etc. as if 'stepping out for a minute' and then rejoin the state, I can go another direction and have a dream and step back out, etc.
I toy with calling it turiya, only because it isn't waking, it isn't dreaming, it isn't dreamless, but it doesn't really fit others' descriptions of turiya (which only means "fourth" anyway). As in your description of deep states there are visions, there is a 'glow' on leaving it, as in some of the descriptions of the four attainments there are "infinite" or "non-dual" perceptions. There are also sequences that seem like 'lived mythology' but are quite distinct from dreaming (which as I said, I can enter and return to this state in). There are, for lack of a better name, guru deities as well, they actually teach, but they do so by, as I said, more like āveśa.
Is it dhyana/jhana? Maybe not, but I can get there from standard dhyana practice. My main point is that it does allow other things to be done, but on sort of parallel tracks. There is a stream of consciousness, I usually ignore it but don't actually have to, I can get up and walk around and stop and reenter, I can dream and return. It's a very "deep" state in that it's very "non-dual". I can and do stop breathing, but that has always been a defect, I specifically worked with a Zen master to stop doing that, it was not do to this, it was do to concentrating on a point and doing too good a job of it.
Hope this helps. non-performance doesn't equal depth doesn't equal difficulty.
Thanks for your insights. 🙏
When one in these states it's impossible to think about anything. Only pure awareness remains. Then how vipassana can be applied when one can't think at all? Or maybe there is something else besides simply being pure awareness?
Well supposedly the insight comes as one exits the state and reflects back upon it.
@@DougsDharma maybe. What I had afterwards is a feeling of peace with anything that appears. During jhanas my mind becomes single pointed - awareness doesn't jump from one object/feeling/thought to another. I think i need to continue looking deep into my own feeling of who I'm, or better yet - need to find experienced Theravada teacher.
I accept Buddhaghosa and have happily practiced kasina meditation and also found more than enough references in the Canon.
what are your personal experiences with meditation?
Not something I can get across in a RUclips response I'm afraid! 😄
You mention that the Buddha fell into the first Jhana almost effortlessly, which seems to imply that it's not so difficult to reach. However, doesn't this ignore the possibility that the Buddha had practiced meditation extensively in earlier lives and that the conditions for this first Jhana (the seeds of which had been planted in earlier lives) came together at that point? So, it would seem to me that this doesn't imply that the first Jhana is relatively easy to reach.
In a similar way, the Vajrayana school asserts that it's possible to reach enlightenment in one lifetime. However, this also seems to gloss over the possibility that the Vajrayana practitioner in this life, has practiced meditation over many previous lives. One of my teachers suggested that the conditions for me having found the Vajrayana had been seeded over countless previous lifetimes and that I was simply experiencing the ripening of this karma in this life, and that i shouldn't waste this precious opportunity and continue to lay the karmic seeds for continued practice in my future lives.
Jhana is real and achievable to regular people if work is put into it.. I love Lee. Also a great book on jhana is FOCUS AND FEARLESS. by SHAILA CATHERINE. GOOD LUCK MY FRIENDS
That's right, Matt. Thanks for the comment!
I don't know what a jhana is and it sounds like noone does to me, but I've been in 2 or 3 distinct forms of meditation. I normally just fall into classic awareness meditation, but once or twice I got to that point where you see shapes. Also not sure if this counts, but when I got a bad cold as a child, I felt like I was doing the celestial walking thing. There where several hours there while I was more content than I had ever been before or since. No care for anything, just a mostly silent car ride to the doctor and back
when you say dhyana, are you referring to the Hindu samadhi?
This is a Buddhist practice, if you want to learn about it I have a playlist that includes videos on each of the four jhānas: ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRiHHGTYuHmFs3pkjbpzzWtB .
@@DougsDharmaOkay. I may have a look sometime.
Ive been nervous to meditate since my first few times. I would see people try and pop out at me but not in a scary way. I'd still get startled cause its like i could hear what they were doing even if it was for a split second until i startled myself out to reality. Very strange
Huh, that’s interesting to hear Joltar. Maybe you were falling asleep for a moment? That can happen.
Results of Bhavana mind training practicing can be known from experiences of individuals at the time of Buddha. Because Buddha must had guided when individual shares his/her experiences and also to guide to go further in bhavana 🙏🏼.
I am interested to know how many types of bhavana mind training meditation practices Buddha discovered? From which book I can find?🙏🏼
I have Vishuddhimaga, Majjimnikaya, and Satipatthan.
Well it depends how you count them. For example, if you look at the Eightfold Path, there are two: mindfulness and concentration. But one can also consider the Brahmavihāras as separate, not as part of concentration meditation. If you want to find the material from early Buddhism though you should not be looking at the Visuddhimagga, which is a millennium newer. Just look at the material from the four major Nikāyas to start with.
How deep is empty?
but he’a the buddha, a soul that is so advance in cultivation. while he takes flight, we are still figuring out how to crawl.
i think it really boils down to the individual’s level of cultivation.
True, there is a lot that advanced practitioners can achieve that those of us with less practice may not be able to.
I wonder if the deeper jhanas were the types of jhana that Gotoma rejects having practiced them for years before creating mindfulness of breathing. Interesting is that, after breath mindfulness, jhana is the term for both techniques and states of concentrative absorption. Gotama's reference to his childhood is a reference to 1st jhana as state during his first experience of breath mindfulness. Reference to jhanas as states is central to understanding Destruction of the Taints which is integral to breath mindfulness as affect regulation. Core affect is different from cognition (sense consciousness) so thought and speech are impediments to the stabilization and regulation of core affect. It's not like cognition goes away because they're insights but breath mindfulness alters the relationship between core affect and implicit memory as they function during perception which gets you to Gotoma's take on nothing, imo, and abiding in it. Brasington, not focusing on DoT as part of right effort, interprets emptiness from a Mahayana perspective which I see as an error.
4th jhana is the way to go > further i can t see how to practice vipassana anymore
Just look around you. Out of 100 people, how many are interested in Buddhism. Out of those interested in Buddhism, how many are interested in meditation? Out of those interested in meditation, how many actually learn and practice meditation with the kind of commitment and dedication required to achieve jhana?
I'm one of those interested in Buddhism and meditation, but don't put in the time and effort required to achieve jhana. And I would say that most Buddhists are like me.
❤😂🎉😢😮😅😊
Well I practiced meditation continuesly one time for 9 months...and i achieved nimitta....
My attitude with all of this talk is .... CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF! If "see for yourself" isn't a "Buddhist Teaching" then I don't know what is. Buddha broke from the pack by doing just THAT.
There are ALWAYS teachers who "won't" or "can't" who are willing to warn everybody off from trying... saying that it is a waste of time or "harmful".
It is ultimately up to each of US to decide what is "TRUTH" from everything else.... Ask yourself what you are afraid of by "going deep"... What exactly are you afraid of finding by exploring deep into your own being, in meditation? And, I'm not suggesting anybody abandon "common sense" either.
Just saying. Thank you, and smooth sailing. 😺🕵♂🧘🦄
Very interesting this seemed to put terms to states I’ve experienced . The lighter or first states are as described euphoria , dreamy yet one can think and walk . It’s the same state Thai chi or yoga puts one in. Interestingly enough its endorphin (the bodies natural opiates) being released. I can now release my own endorphins any time I choose. The deeper states discussed I also experienced once. I was meditating and concentrating on slowing my breath while picturing incense smoke slowing drifting in this figure eight pattern . I became nothing. I was completely unaware of anything- for how long I’m not sure, it felt like I really wasn’t breathing ,but then this white light appeared out of the black nothing and I had a very strong feeling of something powerful was about to happen... I then got a bit worried and pulled my self out. Came back into regular consciousness still sitting in full lotus . My friend that was in the same tent camping with me was like I was trying to talk to you for a while and you weren’t responding lol
Interesting, thanks Jason!
I’m not sure about that but I highly doubt they are correct , endorphin release is similar to what you’re talking about it’s more euphoric than even opiates themselves because endorphins are stronger and have more affinity to the receptor sites( they bind completely) . Endorphin are easily released using Thai chi , hot tub, sex, spicy chili/foods , meditation, jogging / running for extended Periods , yoga etc etc all those things ,so I’m guessing it’s not some kind of natural mdma they just didn’t know how to describe it.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but I believe there are 8 states? The last 4 are a lot subtler and really not necessary if you want to use them access insight work. The first four will suffice. Also I have no practical experience of this as I am still yet to hold a stable nimitta!! 😂 ….. but I will keep sitting ardently. Thanks as always Doug
Sure! There are only four jhānas. The other four states are known in the early texts as "formless attainments", plus there is a fifth additional state, the cessation of perception and feeling. I've done videos on these if you are interested, you can see them (and some other related discussions) in this playlist: ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRiHHGTYuHmFs3pkjbpzzWtB
@@DougsDharma thanks so much. What I like about you Doug is you don’t just have the knowledge (obviously you have a very strong academic background) but you have a lot of wisdom. Thanks for all you share regarding the Dhamma 🙏🏼
Interesting 🙏🏼.
Can you please give lecture on Jeevak Jīvaka-Komārabhacca. Vaidh in Bimbisar and Buddha period
It's something I might do, if I can find an interesting topic to discuss.
KISS .. just keep it simple. Follow the breath, get back to it if you lose it, do it for as long as possible. At least an hour/day. Ignore all else, all odd things. The mind plays lots of tricks, but what you want is beyond mind. When the day comes, if ever, where you are tired of average progress, and you really want to see if you can attain anything, set aside a day, and by any means necessary, follow each and every breath for 12 hours or so, and then sit for a few hours. It's critical to get locked in so you don't even miss one breath. If the breath, body, and mind vanish, keep going if you can. What you want is even beyond meditation space 🙂👍 when body+mind are gone, your going to have to investigate your way beyond meditation space. This is when you need to switch from Samatha to Vipassana meditation, or at least, because of the unclear usage of the latter, from concentration to investigation. You can't concentrate your way out of meditation space 🤔😁 so far as I know.
There seems to be a bit of ordinary elitism in the later description. It seems to be common among those who adopt pursuits as part of their need to feel exceptional. Oatmeal is good for the heart, but not if one eats quick oats, or uses sugar, and or butter. Only whole or steel cut oats without adornment 😉
😄
In the Middle Length Discourses it's a recurring theme, in Tibetan Buddhism it's less of a direct topic in my experience.
Yes, my understanding is that that's generally true of the Mahāyāna, and even much Theravāda nowadays.
Ultimately all practices including meditation are done for an idea of who you think you are, the thought, concept or object. So they lead nowhere other than right here. And without labouring the point there is no here, or there for that matter.
For anyone looking for an excellent book on the subject of jhanas and concentration states as well as morality and insight practice, check out mastering the core teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram or spend some time on the dharma overground forums.
Thanks for the recommendation, C P.
You mention the Abhidhamma is added later.
But let me suggest a practical reality. How easy is it to recite and memorize a speeches worth of a lifetime of a person? How easy is it to translate all of them? How easy is it to translate and memorize all of them.
The loss of knowledge across translations and memorizing them are in exponential decay. It is not logical to assume they are added later only to pali text because they are not translated. Chinese are second order translations from Sanskrit and the higher chances are they did not translate everything from Pali to Sanskrit to Chinese.
Abhidhamma is of course seemingly complicated and difficult to understand. But it does not mean that it is "Unreliable". It is like Donald Trump saying election is unreliable just because he doesn't understand it. Instead i think it is better to study and practice what is logical and comprehensible for our own strengths. Afterall Abhidhamma is not essential for Nirvana and yet it is the tabulated and well-structured record of purest form of canonical knowledge out there. It is not meant for laypeople and it is not suppose to be in lay-man's terms because it is meant for god's. But it is the pinnacle of canonical expression of knowledge if somebody want to study it carefully. I haven't seen such a well structured and comprehensive thesis of knowledge even in today's standards.
My observation is that it can only loose and misinterpreted increasingly rather than enhanced / further improved as of in theoretical sciences where you invent and experiment continuously. There is no more advance experiment to be performed after the Buddha. Every thing is impermanent so that it gradually become incomprehensible.
Hi, it's possible to not have breath ...you are underestimating. The body draws in very imperceptibly oxigen needed...prob is one looks and wants breath ...more practice ...the full potential of a human being is incredible...we haven't really touched on it ...🏵️
Vitakka is the single answer to the Emerald Tablet of Toth.
There can be many mistakes when interpreting jhana or nimitta. Mistakes of Pa Auk Meditation has more details about common mistakes for nimitta. Watch the first uploaded video
And have you considered a Buddhist/philosophy podcast in interview form? Endless opportunity with potent discussion. Tibetan, Theravada, Socratarian, Pope Francis style catholics, stoics, American mega church
It's possible, but my good friend Ted Meissner has been doing such an interview podcast for years now, he's much better at the format than I would be! 😀
“~24:52 Breathing seizes in 4th jhana” now you see why I kept saying in one of my earlier comments, that, there is no breath meditation in Buddhism. This is breathing has more metaphorical meaning than just breathing air in and out. There is a big difference in seize of breathing and subtle or quiet breathing, you can’t just make up things like that you know 😊.
@Neal Murfitt Exactly Neal, because at the deep state of 4th jhana, all your external sensors are off so you can’t feel anything external other than your thoughts, that includes breathing. Breathing meditation (or aanapana sathi) meditation in Bhuddhism has deeper meaning than just breath in and out.
@@nuwanperera1977 what's the metaphor?
@@VeritableVagabond Hi VeritableVagabond, thank you for asking the question. I explained that in one of my previous comments as well. Ānāpānasati or as many calls it, “the breath meditation” in Buddhism has nothing to do with breathing air in and out. In Pali Ānāpānasati sutta there are two important words, one is “assa” and the other is “passa” these two words are homonyms in Pali, they have meanings of breathing in and out as well as take something in to mind (adopt) and put something out from mind (let go). But in translation to Sanskrit these words translated as “Ashwaasa” and “Prashwasa” that has the exact meaning of breathing in and out.
The reason for this is because the lay people who did this translation thought that buddha meant breathing in and out because the sutta has the name Ānāpānasati which is the breath meditation described in brahmin meditation practices. They never bothered to consider two important things. First is that why buddha introduce same breath meditation brahmins had after he explored these teachings for years and found out that was not the way to nibbana. Second, they totally disregarded Ven. Saariputta’s very detailed explanation of “assa” and “passa” in Seela sutta.
So, what do we have to adopt and let go from our mind to attain nibbana according to Ven. Saariputta? He explains how to [adopt] non-lustful, non-hateful and non-delusional (alobha, adwesha, amoha) thoughts according to Thrilakshana and how to [let go] lustful, hateful and delusional (lobha, dwesha, moha) thoughts according to Thrilakshana by developing four jhana in detail.
@@nuwanperera1977 so bring in good thoughts and release bad thoughts? That's the practice?
@@VeritableVagabond Very high level, that’s correct VeritableVagabond, but Ven. Saariputta is very specific in how to do this in Seela sutra. It has to be done according to Thrilakshana, after someone adopted right view (samma dhitti) and it is difficult to explain in a RUclips comment. He explains how to practice this and go up to fourth jhana where your “assa” and “passa” stops because your mind now does not have unskillful tendencies anymore (temporarily of course). This has mistakenly taken as your breathing stops. How gullible people can be right? 😊. This is why fourth jhana is the place where you can truly experience the state of nirvana.