Let them pay taxes like the corporation they are. There's no fixing the deeply engrained misogyny racism and homophobia in the church. It's best to just let it all go. Everything that is wrong with the church is what makes it uniquely mormon. For example, women can't get into heaven without a husband to give them the special handshake to pull them through the veil. No other Christian church demeans women in such a way. Take that out of you might as well just be Lutheran or another Protestan denomination.
Best interview I have ever seen of John Dehlin and I have seen many! Not really caffeinated, just some real passion. Real and powerful and from the heart. Amen
What a great episode! Thank you both for speaking up! My faith crisis truly is a gift! Short of marrying my wife, leaving Mormonism was the best decision of my entire life. No joke. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
I mentioned to my Dad (who is still Mormon) yesterday that I was never taught at church growing up that Joseph Smith had plural wives. I actually specifically remember being told he was married to ONLY Emma. My dad swore up and down that I was misremembering because “everyone knows Joseph Smith had more than one wife”. The gaslighting is real and something’s I don’t think members even realize they are doing it, because they are so deep in the group.
A point of order related to "what would the church need to do to get you (John Dehlin) back?" ... he never left them ... they forced him out against his will. ... its an important background point that underlines his responses. When he says "I have no hate or malice toward the church" that is legit ... he never left ... he spoke up about problems (going back as far as his mission) ... and they purged him for it. John is as "straight up" of a guy as the church could ever hope to have as a critic. They honestly don't deserve him.
A major problem people talk about is a lack of transparency. This includes finances, controversial history, doctrinal changes, gaslighting, and social issues including LGBTQ and feminism.
All you say is true times 100. But we will never hear it from the 15 Apostles. I look to Europe where people are exhausted from 2,000 plus years of Christianity (where church & state were merged & church was enormously wealthy). Statistically, even U.S. is slowly moving to majority nonreligious belief. Non-belief offers much more freedom particularly for women.
IMHO John & others in this niche are helping social evolution. Why not free ourselves to face our actual existence & problems rather than joust with horribly limited belief systems masking powerful, enormously wealthy corporatists who answer to nothing & noone? The admission that death is our literal end is the price for a lifetime of freedom. Any psychic pain that ensues is best discussed with mental health professionals rather than predatory religious adherents.
Well, I've seen many, many of John's podcasts over the years, and this one tops them all. Dehlin nails it on everything, point by point. And Shelise Ann Sola is superb as well. I will keep this one in a safe place in my bookmarks.
I removed my own records from the Mormon Church, it was the most healing process for myself. Thank you for putting out all this eye opening content! ❤️
As I'm sitting her watching this great podcast, I'd like o say that during the LGBTQ+ Policy discussion, I felt physically sick. Not only sick at the great explanation John was giving, but sick that I was supportive of the policies when they came out. I, seriously, want to cry and throw up that the church made these policies and that I thought this was okay. Excuse me while I go puke and repent, whichever comes first. The best I can do is to say I'm sorry for who I use to be.
Hi Connie! Thanks for sharing. I think all we can do is the best we can with the information we have at the time. Thankfully, now you can recognize the harm and that means everything! ❤️
The comments about the age for baptism really struck a nerve for me. I will never forget the time ran across my baptismal certificate while visiting my mother. I was in my thirties by then and a decade into my de-conversion process. Any feelings of nostalgia evaporated immediately when I saw (and recognized) my own barely legible signature. It dawned on me then that I had not only been indoctrinated by the church, I had also been coerced into signing a covenant with god before I even had the ability to write my own name, let alone having a clue what a covenant actually is.
I think the closest thing to an apology the public is ever going to get was Uchtdorf's talk in which he said, some mistakes were made. I have always wondered what exactly that meant.
i really loved the section "a woman's role" because it mirrors my education in such an interesting way imo. i just got my bachelor's in international affairs and my senior seminar was all about women in war and violent extremism. one thing we covered near the end of the course was women's roles in peacemaking. studies have shown that peace agreements that involve women are more likely to last longer than 15 years and often more adequately address the needs of the affected groups because of the roles women play in community building. if mormons involved more women in conversations about administration, leadership, family, etc., i think it would only make them stronger 🤷♀ also this may just be me, i think that we as nonmormons/nevermormons should be allowed to see our loved ones do things in the temple like get married. from the outside, the secrecy and exclusion is really offputting, and since the mormon church emphasizes family so much, this would end so much pain in interfaith families and communities. and let's be real, those "secret" rituals were ripped from the masons and have been posted on the internet lolol
People can get married outside of the temple with their family now and then be sealed in the temple without having to wait a year. "“Where possible, leaders should encourage couples to be both married and sealed in the temple,” says a First Presidency letter to Church leaders around the world. “Where a licensed marriage is not permitted in the temple, or when a temple marriage would cause parents or immediate family members to feel excluded, a civil ceremony followed by a temple sealing is authorized.”"
Unitarian Universalist and former Our Whole Lives instructor here. Thank you, John, for the shout-out to OWL, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that the Unitarian Universalist Association developed the curriculum in partnership with the United Church of Christ. What's really amazing is various progressive Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc. churches are starting to come to us to adapt the curriculum to their faiths as they find there are too many gaps in school sex education. Also, OWL doesn't only teach sex education. It also teaches what healthy relationships look like, and I think that's something almost everyone could get behind, regardless of their beliefs about sex. I'd love to see schools teach healthy relationships.
@@CultstoConsciousness Could be true. (The internet can be used for both good & bad). It definitely helps with Genealogy - which all faiths have been using. I will say though that thanks to the LDS faith they have really pushed this to the forefront. Okay God bless :)
I remember the 2015 thing. I woke up on my birthday having to defend that policy... ...or not. It started to unravel for me that day. It took 5 more years, but I found my out.
About "the church used to do polygamy, but you can get ex'd if you do that today" ... imagine a timeline where the mormon church moved this aggressively off of its past racism ... imagine people being excommunicated if they were found out as racists ... LOL 😆 🤣 😂
I’ve been watching your episodes since you interviewed True Mormon Quotes (he’s my best friend). I agree with John’s assessments, you’re doing a great job and I enjoy your videos a lot.
I excommunicated myself in the late 90s and one of my biggest fears is a family member baptizing me after I die. I feel like even if I put it in my will, it wont be respected for my good and the good of that whole family forever. thing. Also the whole family forever... which family? How much of the tree before it gets cut off? Aunts, uncles? Great great cousins??
Yes! I always brought this up, even as a kid. I was like.....If I will be together forever with my mom and siblings, and they are together forever with their siblings and I'm also with my husband and kids but he's with HIS immediate family.....how does this work exactly? haha
Same. My parents were in a mixed faith marriage and my dad was extremely clear that he had no interest in joining mormonism. My brother and I both quit as soon as we reached age 18 and removed our memberships in the 80's. I recently learned my LDS relatives baptized both my brother and father after they died. I'm furious all over again. Yeah, there's probably no way we can stop them from re-baptizing us. Absolutely no integrity.
The thing about baptisms for the dead is that the deceased have a choice. If, after you die, your family baptizes you, you are free to reject it. We all still have agency. The goal is to give people the choice. What if, on the off chance, you change your mind after you die and would like to be rebaptized after all? But your family doesn't do it because you said you didn't want it. Where would that leave you? Now, we are still ourselves in the next life and you might very well not change your mind. But it does give you one last chance, after you die and perhaps gain a new or different perspective, to decide for certain.
If there is such a thing as Universal Law, which I believe there is, I believe the one guiding tenet would be the autonomy of the individual soul. Thus the actions of Baptism after death, of an soul who expressly did not wish it, would be without substance or power. After my father died, a person who never expressed an interest in the LDS church, and actively rejected it wholeheartedly, my LDS cousin asked for permission to do whatever they do. I declined her offer, based on his position. It is truly the height of arrogance, and I would say it is well intentioned, except for the essential arrogance of believing that one person has such a right over another. This arrogance is at the heart of many belief systems, both religious and non religious, it is responsible for immeasurable suffering.
The only way I would ever go back (and even then it would take a lot of convincing) is if they would give up on the truth claims and decide they would be a strictly humanist organization. If they could keep up on things like home teaching, but have people do it because they truly care about the community - not because it's a virtue signal or because people are afraid of hell if they don't. If they could use the billion dollar investments to provide for people without holding anything over them, I could be down with that. No authority, no worthiness interviews, just people getting together and figuring out how to help each other out - I'd consider it. But as long as the truth claims and hierarchy keep the church bound to the racism, homophobia, and misogyny - there's no amount of fixing that can make it something I want a part of.
I have found that it has been pretty rewarding to work with my local Socialist Alternative chapter. Most of the people I have met in that organization embody all of the "Christian" traits that were so absent in the NIFB community, despite the fact that many of them are atheist.
I believe the Mormon Church has cornered the market on the strategy of keeping its members too busy to reflect, over any institution of which I am aware. And the amount of happiness and connection families experience at the extensive selection of activities keep them in such a dependence that they are acutely aware of what they will lose if they walk away. I live in Western Washington, and the church is quite influential here, though much less than in Utah and Idaho. My children had numerous close friends who are/were Mormon. I watched the struggle of various young people who tried to leave the church, but got drawn back in, the ones who left altogether, and the ones who seemed happy to stay. The sexual criminality within the people who oversee missions must be frighteningly pervasive, simply based on the number of young people I personally know who were (allegedly) (really happened) assaulted while on mission. My position is to beware all systems, but particularly churches, where you think you should feel safe. That is where the predators go. And every system will protect itself, at the cost of the individual.
Sexual shame at 1:10:09. John is spot on with his comments about sexual shame. Sexuality is never discussed in any context in the church. The only mention may be briefly when discussing temple marriage and the law of chastity. I have found the majority of Christian churches are very effective at shaming people based on negative sexual behavior. This is listed as one of the reasons people leave the church based on ex-mormon research. A related issue with women in the church is body shaming. Women are told from an early age a righteous woman is modest in dress. Revealing clothing is shunned for youth activities like dances. and in relief society.
I was taught the laminate thing in primary. I was so young and that was one of the first times I started doubting the church. I was smart enough that young to know wrong ideas. That's when I started questioning everything which eventually lead to my departure of the church.
I thoroughly enjoyed every word in this podcast. I hung on every word. So enlightening and fascinating. I really enjoyed your guest John. Thanks Shelise.
Fabulous interview Shelise! The end result turned into a concise point by point list of the main problematic areas of The Church. The one point I would disagree with John on is that The Church is a net benefit. Any time you base your life and decisions in your life on misinformation and lies it can't be beneficial to you and those around you.
Thank you Evelyn! A lot of people missed the point of this, but not you! Thanks for pointing it out! I do agree that even if these things were changed, it’s still based on lies and deception which is unhealthy for anyone to dedicate their life to. Thanks for watching!
@@CultstoConsciousness Thanks Shelise... I enjoy watching. I agree with John, you're a great talent! Have you thought about doing a show on the power of manifesting? I've heard you mention it multiple times and believe in the principle too. I'd be interested in a discussion on the topic and how it's worked in your life.
I was raised in Arkansas in a Christian family. Remember occasionally seeing a few Mormon male missionaries with their white shirts, ties and black pants either walking or riding their bikes around neighborhoods, but had no idea what their theology were other than a basis on Christ. After listening to both of your channels out of curiosity I am astonished by some of the issues you’ve discussed. Issues that make me wonder why anyone would have ever believed. But more importantly- I Absolutely 💯 could never have become a Mormon simply based on my coffee consumption alone!! 😂🤣 The thought of a religion prohibiting caffeine is still crazy to me!! Love listening and learning about the various atrocities that have resulted from all of there different damaging cults!! ❤
Please remember that you are listening to the opinions of jaded ex-Mormons who have a biased opinion of the Church. There is always more than one side to a story and different perspectives. There is a lot of good in the Church, a lot of love, service, humanitarian efforts, faith in Christ, and even acceptance and love for LGBTQ members. Please don't form your opinions based only on the words of those with an ax to grind.
I agree with most of John’s comprehensive list of changes. My priority would be: 1. issue apologies for its well documented discrimination. 2. Implement a mandatory emeritus status for all leaderships at age 80. 3. Allow a seamless way for any “member” to resign without a single hoop to jump through. 4. Dismantle kitten and mcconkie. Bravo John for all the others you mention. I totally respect you and the entire MS hosts and staff.
In my experience being in a different high demand religious cult growing up, and seeing the way evangelicals act in other denominations, all Christianity as whole (every single denomination and off shoot) is built on the backs of women. Women are used as servants, which gives the men the time and freedom to focus on non-home-labor things and build up the churches. Women's ideas and talents are just taken and men make them their ideas. All of conservativism is fearful of feminism because they fear losing their power and their built in servants. As women more and more are empowered to not need men, the more and more effort men have to put into being good humans that treat people with respect and earn their place at our sides. They fear that work. Edit: I am not saying all men fear that work, I am saying the men who hold conservative and religious ideals that subjugate women fear that work.
i love love loved this interview. when john talked about how much pressure and manipulation there is for people to ostracize and judge family and friends and others that have left the church, it just made me want to add on: those who have family and friends that have left the church and still love and accept and welcome those people just as much as they did before, thank you. they deserve extra love as well. though out listening to this, i was overwhelmingly grateful for my parents and family who went through the mental gymnastics and introspection and everything else that goes along with it, so that they could be supportive and wonderful and loving. that is not an easy thing to do. so thank you. if you are someone like my parents, thank you. i guarantee the person in your life that has left the church is incredibly grateful for you
John speaks more truth-than any of these supposed “prophets” who lie to us and manipulate us. “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.” -Jeremiah 23:21
Many members of the LDS Church are aware of everything in the video and have a different perspective. Remember, the people you are listening to, even though they have some valid points, are coming from a different (jaded? disillusioned?) place and so, to members of the Church, it is a skewed perspective. Perhaps your Mormon family would be willing to discuss things with you from their point of view.
John is amazing. Could the LDS church own its past since they claim to value honesty? Make systemic change to protect children? This seems so obvious to anyone who isn't drinking the coolaid.
I was told that it was Ham that saw Noah drunk and passed out naked and laughed about it with his brothers who was cursed. And that it was black skin that was his curse. In that story, God gave him the mark to keep him safe because he was afraid that him and his children would be persecuted and killed.. God gave him the mark to point to protecting them. So I asked my Dad why don't they protect them then, not give them a humble b.s. charge because they displayed some dignity when speaking to a police officer. How do white people ever use that to justify why they discriminate against black people, even if they do believe the added black skin to be the curse Ham got.
Informed consent at 16:29. I think the fear in the past was that members could not handle the truth. They can handle the truth. In fact, if they know the truth they will probably stay active in the church. What people want is more transparency and informed consent re. doctrine, history, priesthood ban, plural marriage, Book of Mormon issues, and other controversies.
What a great discussion with John. As an administrator for a group of "exvangelicals" who see themselves as "cult survivors", the talk from 1:03:10 through a key point at 1:04:24 hits home. Thank you...
*TL;DR:* Great interview, enjoyable listening to, I 100% agree. The deep-seated feeling of something being "not right" or defective inside of you is very real, and can even last for decades after you leave the religion. I'm still battling with it. That part about being indoctrinated with a sense of shame around leaving is also spot on. Thank you both for helping share the truth in such well thought out and articulated ways. Hopefully it'll help more and more people. *Story Time:* Excellent interview, I've never actually heard of Mormon Stories. In fact, your channel, Shelise, is the first mormon centered channel that I've started following. Pretty much just you, Telltale, and occasionally Genetically Modified Skeptic (he's the one that I happened to stumble across originally just a few years ago), plus some random thing if happens to catch my eye. I'd already left before RUclips and these resources even existed, since I came to the realization that it was false and harmful on my own terms. So for me, watching these is just interesting, given my history, and just nice to see others speaking the same truths that I've known for myself, and enjoying seeing you helping others who might still be unsure. All that said, even though I know that the religion is false and unhealthy, to this day I'm still challenged with a deep seated core feeling that I'm somehow not right inside and defective. The programming runs so deep. I'm still working on it in therapy. My therapist and I have talked about my inner disconnect several times, but where all of my cognition around it is spot on yet I can't let go of the low self-esteem and negative feelings toward myself. He said that usually when people have the level of cognition that I have around it, it connects for them but I've still got something deeper in me that we're trying to figure out. I was thinking about it 2 days ago after my last session, trying to find what other commonalities might be within all of the instances of feeling negative toward myself and maybe that might precede the negative thoughts. I was having a mild form of those feelings at the time (triggered by my therapist saying something positive about me, and my automatic kick back feeling and brief thought were to negate it, which I told him about). So after the session I was using that current moment to examine what feeling was deeper down that preceded my mental push back. Feeling defective inside is something we've talked about before a bit, and I realized that that was the deeper feeling underneath my resistance to something positive being said about me. So I thought about it in relation to other times that I've had negative self thoughts and feelings, and I believe that feeling of being "not right", defective, or broken inside is a core commonality. That feeling very often precedes my negative self-talk. I know that this came from my extreme religious upbringing, in conjunction with my own personal wiring, and indirectly learned traits from others. I've said many times that I can't blame my parents or the people in the church, they were just trying to do what they thought was right with the tools they had, and they didn't realize the damage that it does. I do blame the church teachings though, and it's those destructive teachings that need to change. Speaking out against it is how we break the generational trauma. My dad and stepmom were very devout (and my mom), regular temple work and everything. When my dad was bedridden much of the time in his last days, I had visited him and I needed to help my stepmom pull him up in the bed a bit to sit up, and his garment bottoms had pulled down for just a moment as we helped slide him up in the bed and he was mortified. He moaned about us seeing "his shame". Just his wife and his own son who he helped create with that. Yet he was so deeply ashamed of his own reproductive organ that he literally called it his shame. This is a man who was in the army before he joined the church, he not only bathed with me as a kid (so not only did he help make me, I'd seen it before anyway), but he had to shower with many adult men in his army life, so you'd think he wouldn't have had that deep feeling of shame from it. But no, even people who think they don't have any trauma from it often do and they don't even realize it, as can be seen from what my dad thought about his own body in his final days when he was weaker and more tired, and so those deep feelings bubbled to the surface more than they would have in the past. Mormons like to say that the human body isn't shameful, it's just "sacred" and that's why we keep it hidden and only show to a spouse. On the surface it seems like a much better message than the direct shame that some other sects teach. But our brains are smarter than that, you can dress it up in pretty speech like that all you want, but underneath it is absolutely still 100% about shame and it affects us just the same. Especially when paired with the fact that it's considered sin, if you do show your body. It teaches us to be ashamed of our own bodies; our own selves. I've been told that it's just me overreacting and the religion doesn't cause any harm. It's all just me "not understanding" and taking things "out of context" and being too "black & white" and "just not wanting to be held accountable" (despite still following many of the healthy parts of the moral teachings and being very conscientious) and "I know deep down you still believe"... etc. I even keep thinking about getting my name officially removed from the rosters, I mentioned it in another video's comment. One aspect I didn't mention there was that there's always a part of me that doesn't want my mom or sisters to feel bad if I did it because then they'll think that our "seal" is broken. When I think about it, it also triggers a feeling in the kind of like not wanting to let my parents down by making it truly official. On one hand, since I don't believe the religion anyway, it doesn't actually matter to just leave my name there and let my family be happy--no skin off my back. But on the other hand, the church is based on harmful untruths, so every name we take off their roles is one less name that they can use to boost their membership numbers. We all know that they include inactive members in their advertising numbers. But point being, that part about leaving still has an effect on you, even when you know your family won't judge or distance from you for it, and you yourself are perfectly comfortable with officially being removed and wants to be. ... Oi, I had not thought I was going to write even a fifth of that much! I'll go put a TL;DR at the top! I just meant to write briefly about the deep seated feeling of being not right inside. It's something that I have to dig farther into, because honestly I still feel and believe it down. Though I recognize where the tendency to have that feeling originated from, I don't believe that that's still the current underlying cause of the feeling--that I have to figure out (though I believe that it's likely associated with my long standing emotional suppression since I was a child for why I feel defective inside).
There are more parallels then you might think. When John got excommunicated, he published the audio of his trial. When Luther got interrogated for heresy, he published the interrogation protocols in printed form, and they went viral. Viral in the 16th century meant that for short prints such as leaflets, printing companies would reprint these things without explicit permission to make money, and so these prints could literally spread across the country without the author's consent. This was the case with Luther's ideas, including his 95 theses. So the act of leaking trial protocols is an interesting parallel between John Fehling and Martin Luther.
Again, it is so shocking to me how much the Mormon church parallels the way the Catholic Church. I totally agree that most large institutions cause harm, sadly.
The POX started out as a policy they quietly snuck into the Chuch Handbook of Instructions. It wasn't announced as a revelation until RMN gave a speech at BYU Hawaii.l explaining it in great detail. Well worth listening to the full audio.
I 100 percent agree with John about your talent. You embody grace, strength, compassion and so much more. The world is becoming a better place because of your voice and the voices of your guests . You are able to create space for guests that allows them to tell their stories without judgment but with a unique gentle-powerfulness. (if that makes sense)
What a great question! And it was wonderful hearing John's answers, along with his reasons why. I particularly liked his perspective about transforming missions. Though (on the topic of Chastity, for instance), one would be better served to recognize the truth behind fallen doctrines, than to throw them out altogether. Wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Incidentally, when my husband turned this question back onto me... I realized there _is_ a way the church could be transformed into something truly healthy. _If_ carefully guided by the genuine intent and prophetic awareness of honest lovingness for everyone involved, the needed enlightenment, transparency, and paradigm shift _could_ allow its transformation into quite an inspiring Zion community. Returning to the authentic purpose for which all churches were created. That way we wouldn't have to lose the empowering community factor we all miss the most outside of it. It's a fascinating question!! :) Thank you!
@@susanhaney3437 Unitarian Universalists are not a sect or denomination, but an Association where people from any religious practice can be part of. There might be some Christian, Muslim, or Jewish people that go to the same church, but to be considered a sect oe denomination of them means they have a central doctrine that they all believe in and follow. Getting a bunch of people together that don't have the same central doctrine that they all believe in and follow, is why it's an Association and not a sect or denomination. The sad truth is nobody can say they are a Christian, a Muslim, or are Jewish if they don't believe in the principles and doctrines of the Abrahamic traditions they're all based from, and those traditions teach that women are subservient to men.
Wow, I don't know what to say! John's brought up excellent points! If I got to be prophet, I'd have more inclusion. I don't understand being excluded from the temple. There's all these rules to be mormon!
The Worldwide Church of God repudiated much of it's doctrine after it's founder Herbert Armstrong died. Several groups seceded from that church and returned to Armstrong beliefs.
When the host said she only found out in 2020 that the Lamanites were cursed with dark skin, what that told me was that she never read The Book of Mormon. While the Church doesn't get up at the pulpit to talk about that specifically (they are too busy talking about what truly matters, salvation for all through the blood of Christ) the members ARE encouraged to read The Book of Mormon. If we want to know what the scriptures say, we have to read them. We can't rely on a 10 minute talk or 45 minute lesson to learn about our scriptures and Church history. We are encouraged to study and learn for ourselves as well. I knew about the curse at 14 years old because I READ The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. People complain about the curse, but what they don't realize is that later in the book, it is the Lamanites who are righteous and shine with the light of Christ and the Nephites become wicked and loathsome. It is the spirit that makes us fair and sin that makes us dark regardless of our actual skin color.
My main reason to run away from this church was the racism, reinforced by being considered a second-class citizen, and the stupidity they told me when I asked why a woman must wear a skirt and men must have their hair short. And then, on my way out, I knew being gay was condemned, which made me run faster. This happened years ago, and I am glad I found you guys, so people get to know the reality behind the storytellers in the back of the temples.
a side note that has been bugging me is actually eternal marriage. There seems to be no possibility for divorce in the eternities. What if I get 100 years into eternity and realize I don't want to be with this guy forever? What? Then I gotta spend the next hundred thousand million years with someone I resent? Forever? The Terrestrial kingdom is the one that I'll be going to, as a good person who isn't "Valiant." And in that kingdom God doesn't get to choose my life plan. I can just do what I want forever. Sounds like the best option by far. Of course, I don't believe any of that, but I draw comfort in the fact that even if I'm somehow wrong, I'm still going to the place I most want to go. And my husband and children will also go there, so I guess we get to be a family, even if we aren't sealed. And my family who are one level up will get to visit me.
While in good heart to change the Mormons church in good ways, unfortunately cults can never do more goods than harms. This is the definition of cult, a religion does harms to people. All the tactics, all the manipulations, at the end, are doing harms to people one way or the other, and get people further away from the reality, and all the criteria defining a cult, just a measure how damaging a cult is. Unfortunately, cults coexist with humanity. It’s cults define cultures. Maybe the best thing to do is actually regulate cults, limit their influences and damages. If John is a prophet, he won’t be John today anymore. We all can be prophets after the facts. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Hi! I agree that A LOT would have to change to make the church a place where people aren't being actively harmed. As you can see our list was very long and definitely not even the full list of grievances we both had. I think it would have to lean more towards a relaxed community of worship than an actual religion for this to happen. Totally wishful thinking, but that was the point of the fun exercise :)
You do realize all the things a cult does that defines it as a cult, have also been done by every orgazized religion in human history, and are still done by most of them to this day, right? The only difference between a cult and a religion (using modern definitions) is society says cult=bad; religion=good. Both are a group of people that share the same beliefs regarding a divine being, and the dictrines each preaches is for the sole purpose of controlling the masses by a few, power hungry clergy.
@@CultstoConsciousness I think you don’t understand my point. Cults are the mainstream, cults control everything in the society, not logical people who actively pursuit goods for the society. Cults are called cults because people are actively harmed in the cults. You don’t call a religion a cult if no one is harmed. Anyway, you are definitely constructive in the thinking of changing the “bad” things in the Mormons church. It’s just changing one thing always change everything. Changing one doctrine will change the whole religion.
@@gothicbagheera There is no such thing called “good” religion. Religion itself is based on false foundation, any current and past and future religions, and by this understanding, religions can only give false promises false hopes, and only going downhill after this. Many can benefit from religions, but only the minority, but never truly beneficial to majority. Unfortunately religions are necessary for many people even it’s damaging. The existence of religion can be justified, but the damage needs to be limited.
My daughter that got married in the temple in 2002 wouldn't believe me when I told her about the penalties. And even though she is divorcing her eternal companion she married that day she still believes in eternal marriage. 🤔 So hard to break the brainwashing. She helps the missionaries with their contacts in her ward in South Carolina. I don't think she really even knows what the Church really believes. She loves the culture like my mom who had never read the scriptures according to my dad but loved the culture and could not understand how I could leave the FAMILY church. She walked out of the room when I asked her if she loved Jesus.
Hi Polly! That’s heartbreaking. There is something I heard from one of my recent guests @altworldly who is ex Jehovah’s Witness that resonated. Everything good about the church isn’t unique and everything unique isn’t good. Community can be found in less abusive places. I wish more people could see that. Thanks for sharing!
I appreciate the shout out to Unitarian Universalists and the “Our Whole Lives” sex education program ❤. I believe the UCC (United Church of Christ) also developed that program/runs it in conjunction with UUs.
Listening to you all I just remembered being part of a Unity Church and a Morman man showed up who had gotten in trouble due to sexual perversion of some sort. I remember being creeped out and kept my kids super close to me and away from him. I totally forgot about that but it all makes sense now.
Oh my gosh! The Gay stance given from the church explains why a loved one of mine and his stance on Gay supporters!! He found out I liked John Dehlin and he had some very strong offensive words about him 😢. It made me really sad because I feel the same way and he doesn’t know. So I’m concerned to let him know because he might just hate me… idk 🤷♀️ But he also thinks the church is corrupted but “true” and that we need worthy men in these offices. He and his wife also think that JS never practiced polygamy but that it started with Brigham Young (Brighamites). Also that journals were changed to taint JS. That’s what he believes. Crazy!
Religion is a personal choice through prayer faith and your personal progression as you learn by your mistakes we all make mistakes the greatest commandment is to love one another
21:21 I would think that if this happened to all churches, they would go away but then again seeing how many people don’t believe in facts, they probably would still be around.
One of the things I would do is give every single living people back their tithing money, current and former members, including babies. Every living person. The church keeps such good records, that should be no problem. The church would keep the money from people now deceased and all of the interest on the whole shebang as well as their investments. That would still leave the church well off. Then they switch over to telling people to share whatever they want directly to wherever they see need.
Love this! I've heard of people suing the church to get their thousands in tithing back based on fraudulent claims. I wonder how many people win. They definitely deserve to get their money back.
No? I figured their parents did it for them for any gifts the babies received, the way they whisper to wee ones to say I know the church is true. But thank you for clarifying this for me. @@sarahh.8579
If YOU had the power and authority to affect real change in the LDS church, what would you do?
remove their tax exemption...
@@tucuxi70 Oh please, is that the best you could come up with?
Let them pay taxes like the corporation they are. There's no fixing the deeply engrained misogyny racism and homophobia in the church. It's best to just let it all go.
Everything that is wrong with the church is what makes it uniquely mormon. For example, women can't get into heaven without a husband to give them the special handshake to pull them through the veil. No other Christian church demeans women in such a way. Take that out of you might as well just be Lutheran or another Protestan denomination.
Make it more inclusive like Community of Christ (old RLDS).
Replace the culture of blind obedience with one of thoughtful questioning.
Best interview I have ever seen of John Dehlin and I have seen many! Not really caffeinated, just some real passion. Real and powerful and from the heart. Amen
Aww thank you so much!
What a great episode! Thank you both for speaking up!
My faith crisis truly is a gift! Short of marrying my wife, leaving Mormonism was the best decision of my entire life. No joke. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Hi Ryan! Thanks for sharing that! 🙌
I mentioned to my Dad (who is still Mormon) yesterday that I was never taught at church growing up that Joseph Smith had plural wives. I actually specifically remember being told he was married to ONLY Emma.
My dad swore up and down that I was misremembering because “everyone knows Joseph Smith had more than one wife”. The gaslighting is real and something’s I don’t think members even realize they are doing it, because they are so deep in the group.
Just conferred with my cousin (she went on her mission in 2014-ish) and she also was specifically taught Joseph Smith was only ever married to Emma.
A point of order related to "what would the church need to do to get you (John Dehlin) back?" ... he never left them ... they forced him out against his will. ... its an important background point that underlines his responses.
When he says "I have no hate or malice toward the church" that is legit ... he never left ... he spoke up about problems (going back as far as his mission) ... and they purged him for it.
John is as "straight up" of a guy as the church could ever hope to have as a critic. They honestly don't deserve him.
Great deal of chemistry between these two. If Shelise wasn’t already busy with her own programme, she’d be a great candidate to cohost MS.
Aww thank you, Salvatore! You are too kind! It was definitely a fun conversation.
I'm a fan of Margie Co-hosting, she does a great job with John.
Sheliseis such a treasure. I learn such a lot listening to John and her on their own podcasts. Most grateful for them both.
I love her!@@sjordan7085
A major problem people talk about is a lack of transparency. This includes finances, controversial history, doctrinal changes, gaslighting, and social issues including LGBTQ and feminism.
All you say is true times 100. But we will never hear it from the 15 Apostles. I look to Europe where people are exhausted from 2,000 plus years of Christianity (where church & state were merged & church was enormously wealthy). Statistically, even U.S. is slowly moving to majority nonreligious belief. Non-belief offers much more freedom particularly for women.
IMHO John & others in this niche are helping social evolution. Why not free ourselves to face our actual existence & problems rather than joust with horribly limited belief systems masking powerful, enormously wealthy corporatists who answer to nothing & noone? The admission that death is our literal end is the price for a lifetime of freedom. Any psychic pain that ensues is best discussed with mental health professionals rather than predatory religious adherents.
Well, I've seen many, many of John's podcasts over the years, and this one tops them all. Dehlin nails it on everything, point by point. And Shelise Ann Sola is superb as well. I will keep this one in a safe place in my bookmarks.
Thank you, Donald!! Made my day 🥰🙏
I removed my own records from the Mormon Church, it was the most healing process for myself. Thank you for putting out all this eye opening content! ❤️
Right on!
So did I. Had so much help in my healing from MS. (◍•ᴗ•◍)❤
This episode was so healing! Thank you!
Hi Elaine! I'm so happy to hear that!
As I'm sitting her watching this great podcast, I'd like o say that during the LGBTQ+ Policy discussion, I felt physically sick. Not only sick at the great explanation John was giving, but sick that I was supportive of the policies when they came out. I, seriously, want to cry and throw up that the church made these policies and that I thought this was okay. Excuse me while I go puke and repent, whichever comes first. The best I can do is to say I'm sorry for who I use to be.
Hi Connie! Thanks for sharing. I think all we can do is the best we can with the information we have at the time. Thankfully, now you can recognize the harm and that means everything! ❤️
YAS!!!! Raise the baptism age to 18!!!!
Agree
The comments about the age for baptism really struck a nerve for me.
I will never forget the time ran across my baptismal certificate while visiting my mother. I was in my thirties by then and a decade into my de-conversion process. Any feelings of nostalgia evaporated immediately when I saw (and recognized) my own barely legible signature.
It dawned on me then that I had not only been indoctrinated by the church, I had also been coerced into signing a covenant with god before I even had the ability to write my own name, let alone having a clue what a covenant actually is.
I think the closest thing to an apology the public is ever going to get was Uchtdorf's talk in which he said, some mistakes were made. I have always wondered what exactly that meant.
I felt kind of sad when Elder U was unofficially demoted. He wasn’t able to keep talking about what mistakes were made.
@@2022Coopersmomcan't help but assume that was the reason why
@@2022Coopersmomwait what? Uchtdorf was my favorite!!! 🥺 look how they massacred my boy…
i really loved the section "a woman's role" because it mirrors my education in such an interesting way imo. i just got my bachelor's in international affairs and my senior seminar was all about women in war and violent extremism. one thing we covered near the end of the course was women's roles in peacemaking. studies have shown that peace agreements that involve women are more likely to last longer than 15 years and often more adequately address the needs of the affected groups because of the roles women play in community building. if mormons involved more women in conversations about administration, leadership, family, etc., i think it would only make them stronger 🤷♀
also this may just be me, i think that we as nonmormons/nevermormons should be allowed to see our loved ones do things in the temple like get married. from the outside, the secrecy and exclusion is really offputting, and since the mormon church emphasizes family so much, this would end so much pain in interfaith families and communities. and let's be real, those "secret" rituals were ripped from the masons and have been posted on the internet lolol
People can get married outside of the temple with their family now and then be sealed in the temple without having to wait a year.
"“Where possible, leaders should encourage couples to be both married and sealed in the temple,” says a First Presidency letter to Church leaders around the world. “Where a licensed marriage is not permitted in the temple, or when a temple marriage would cause parents or immediate family members to feel excluded, a civil ceremony followed by a temple sealing is authorized.”"
Well that is great news!
Unitarian Universalist and former Our Whole Lives instructor here. Thank you, John, for the shout-out to OWL, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that the Unitarian Universalist Association developed the curriculum in partnership with the United Church of Christ. What's really amazing is various progressive Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc. churches are starting to come to us to adapt the curriculum to their faiths as they find there are too many gaps in school sex education.
Also, OWL doesn't only teach sex education. It also teaches what healthy relationships look like, and I think that's something almost everyone could get behind, regardless of their beliefs about sex. I'd love to see schools teach healthy relationships.
People’s memories might be short but the internet lasts forever.
absolutely! I think the internet is the #1 thing hurting the church right now.
@@CultstoConsciousness that, and the truth...
@@CultstoConsciousness Could be true. (The internet can be used for both good & bad). It definitely helps with Genealogy - which all faiths have been using. I will say though that thanks to the LDS faith they have really pushed this to the forefront. Okay God bless :)
I remember the 2015 thing. I woke up on my birthday having to defend that policy...
...or not.
It started to unravel for me that day. It took 5 more years, but I found my out.
So glad you did!
About "the church used to do polygamy, but you can get ex'd if you do that today" ... imagine a timeline where the mormon church moved this aggressively off of its past racism ... imagine people being excommunicated if they were found out as racists ... LOL 😆 🤣 😂
I’ve been watching your episodes since you interviewed True Mormon Quotes (he’s my best friend). I agree with John’s assessments, you’re doing a great job and I enjoy your videos a lot.
Hi Kolby!! Yes he told me about you and I appreciate your support more than you know! Thanks so much! 😊🙏
John is correct. She does an incredible job with these interviews 👏🏼 👏🏼
I excommunicated myself in the late 90s and one of my biggest fears is a family member baptizing me after I die. I feel like even if I put it in my will, it wont be respected for my good and the good of that whole family forever. thing. Also the whole family forever... which family? How much of the tree before it gets cut off? Aunts, uncles? Great great cousins??
Yes! I always brought this up, even as a kid. I was like.....If I will be together forever with my mom and siblings, and they are together forever with their siblings and I'm also with my husband and kids but he's with HIS immediate family.....how does this work exactly? haha
Same. My parents were in a mixed faith marriage and my dad was extremely clear that he had no interest in joining mormonism. My brother and I both quit as soon as we reached age 18 and removed our memberships in the 80's. I recently learned my LDS relatives baptized both my brother and father after they died. I'm furious all over again. Yeah, there's probably no way we can stop them from re-baptizing us. Absolutely no integrity.
The thing about baptisms for the dead is that the deceased have a choice. If, after you die, your family baptizes you, you are free to reject it. We all still have agency. The goal is to give people the choice. What if, on the off chance, you change your mind after you die and would like to be rebaptized after all? But your family doesn't do it because you said you didn't want it. Where would that leave you? Now, we are still ourselves in the next life and you might very well not change your mind. But it does give you one last chance, after you die and perhaps gain a new or different perspective, to decide for certain.
If there is such a thing as Universal Law, which I believe there is, I believe the one guiding tenet would be the autonomy of the individual soul. Thus the actions of Baptism after death, of an soul who expressly did not wish it, would be without substance or power. After my father died, a person who never expressed an interest in the LDS church, and actively rejected it wholeheartedly, my LDS cousin asked for permission to do whatever they do. I declined her offer, based on his position. It is truly the height of arrogance, and I would say it is well intentioned, except for the essential arrogance of believing that one person has such a right over another. This arrogance is at the heart of many belief systems, both religious and non religious, it is responsible for immeasurable suffering.
The only way I would ever go back (and even then it would take a lot of convincing) is if they would give up on the truth claims and decide they would be a strictly humanist organization. If they could keep up on things like home teaching, but have people do it because they truly care about the community - not because it's a virtue signal or because people are afraid of hell if they don't. If they could use the billion dollar investments to provide for people without holding anything over them, I could be down with that. No authority, no worthiness interviews, just people getting together and figuring out how to help each other out - I'd consider it. But as long as the truth claims and hierarchy keep the church bound to the racism, homophobia, and misogyny - there's no amount of fixing that can make it something I want a part of.
Great comment!
I have found that it has been pretty rewarding to work with my local Socialist Alternative chapter. Most of the people I have met in that organization embody all of the "Christian" traits that were so absent in the NIFB community, despite the fact that many of them are atheist.
I believe the Mormon Church has cornered the market on the strategy of keeping its members too busy to reflect, over any institution of which I am aware. And the amount of happiness and connection families experience at the extensive selection of activities keep them in such a dependence that they are acutely aware of what they will lose if they walk away. I live in Western Washington, and the church is quite influential here, though much less than in Utah and Idaho. My children had numerous close friends who are/were Mormon. I watched the struggle of various young people who tried to leave the church, but got drawn back in, the ones who left altogether, and the ones who seemed happy to stay. The sexual criminality within the people who oversee missions must be frighteningly pervasive, simply based on the number of young people I personally know who were (allegedly) (really happened) assaulted while on mission. My position is to beware all systems, but particularly churches, where you think you should feel safe. That is where the predators go. And every system will protect itself, at the cost of the individual.
Sexual shame at 1:10:09. John is spot on with his comments about sexual shame. Sexuality is never discussed in any context in the church. The only mention may be briefly when discussing temple marriage and the law of chastity. I have found the majority of Christian churches are very effective at shaming people based on negative sexual behavior. This is listed as one of the reasons people leave the church based on ex-mormon research. A related issue with women in the church is body shaming. Women are told from an early age a righteous woman is modest in dress. Revealing clothing is shunned for youth activities like dances. and in relief society.
Great interview. Informed consent is important as well as not gaslighting members or those who choose to leave. Love John’s ideas and fairness.
Thank you! I agree. Members should know what they "believe" and the history of their church.
The way JD articulates informed consent is one of his biggest contributions to Mormonism.
Thank you! You are two are doing so much good for people in or coming out of high control groups. Your work is so much appreciated.
Thank you Stefanie! I appreciate YOU! :)
I was taught the laminate thing in primary. I was so young and that was one of the first times I started doubting the church. I was smart enough that young to know wrong ideas. That's when I started questioning everything which eventually lead to my departure of the church.
I thoroughly enjoyed every word in this podcast. I hung on every word. So enlightening and fascinating. I really enjoyed your guest John. Thanks Shelise.
Fabulous interview Shelise! The end result turned into a concise point by point list of the main problematic areas of The Church. The one point I would disagree with John on is that The Church is a net benefit. Any time you base your life and decisions in your life on misinformation and lies it can't be beneficial to you and those around you.
Thank you Evelyn! A lot of people missed the point of this, but not you! Thanks for pointing it out! I do agree that even if these things were changed, it’s still based on lies and deception which is unhealthy for anyone to dedicate their life to. Thanks for watching!
@@CultstoConsciousness Thanks Shelise... I enjoy watching. I agree with John, you're a great talent!
Have you thought about doing a show on the power of manifesting? I've heard you mention it multiple times and believe in the principle too. I'd be interested in a discussion on the topic and how it's worked in your life.
If the roots are unhealthy so will the tree be. @@CultstoConsciousness
If it wasn't for the doctrine of Baptism for the Dead, I would never have found out I'm a descendant of King Edward I of England... Thanks Mormons!
Congratulations on getting this opportunity to work with John
Thanks, Rhonda! I was very excited to interview him!
I was raised in Arkansas in a Christian family. Remember occasionally seeing a few Mormon male missionaries with their white shirts, ties and black pants either walking or riding their bikes around neighborhoods, but had no idea what their theology were other than a basis on Christ. After listening to both of your channels out of curiosity I am astonished by some of the issues you’ve discussed. Issues that make me wonder why anyone would have ever believed. But more importantly- I Absolutely 💯 could never have become a Mormon simply based on my coffee consumption alone!! 😂🤣 The thought of a religion prohibiting caffeine is still crazy to me!! Love listening and learning about the various atrocities that have resulted from all of there different damaging cults!! ❤
Please remember that you are listening to the opinions of jaded ex-Mormons who have a biased opinion of the Church. There is always more than one side to a story and different perspectives. There is a lot of good in the Church, a lot of love, service, humanitarian efforts, faith in Christ, and even acceptance and love for LGBTQ members. Please don't form your opinions based only on the words of those with an ax to grind.
@@sarahh.8579good in the church? There's still stuff like r@c!$m in it. Let me know when there's apologies issued for that
I agree with most of John’s comprehensive list of changes. My priority would be: 1. issue apologies for its well documented discrimination. 2. Implement a mandatory emeritus status for all leaderships at age 80. 3. Allow a seamless way for any “member” to resign without a single hoop to jump through. 4. Dismantle kitten and mcconkie.
Bravo John for all the others you mention. I totally respect you and the entire MS hosts and staff.
I really loved this! Thanks CTC! 😄
Happy to hear that! 🥰
Thanks for another excellent show. I love seeing you at the MS studio! Hello John 💕
In my experience being in a different high demand religious cult growing up, and seeing the way evangelicals act in other denominations, all Christianity as whole (every single denomination and off shoot) is built on the backs of women. Women are used as servants, which gives the men the time and freedom to focus on non-home-labor things and build up the churches. Women's ideas and talents are just taken and men make them their ideas. All of conservativism is fearful of feminism because they fear losing their power and their built in servants. As women more and more are empowered to not need men, the more and more effort men have to put into being good humans that treat people with respect and earn their place at our sides. They fear that work.
Edit: I am not saying all men fear that work, I am saying the men who hold conservative and religious ideals that subjugate women fear that work.
Hi Kat! I agree, there is certainly a lack of balance.
i love love loved this interview. when john talked about how much pressure and manipulation there is for people to ostracize and judge family and friends and others that have left the church, it just made me want to add on: those who have family and friends that have left the church and still love and accept and welcome those people just as much as they did before, thank you. they deserve extra love as well. though out listening to this, i was overwhelmingly grateful for my parents and family who went through the mental gymnastics and introspection and everything else that goes along with it, so that they could be supportive and wonderful and loving. that is not an easy thing to do. so thank you. if you are someone like my parents, thank you. i guarantee the person in your life that has left the church is incredibly grateful for you
🎶🎵“Next to murder!” 🎶🎵 lmao that cracked me up
John speaks more truth-than any of these supposed “prophets” who lie to us and manipulate us. “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.” -Jeremiah 23:21
Great interview and talk
I have family that are Mormon and it is really sad to learn all of the ways that they have been deceived.
Knowledge is power. Knowing all of this can allow you to plant a seed if/when it’s a good time
Many members of the LDS Church are aware of everything in the video and have a different perspective. Remember, the people you are listening to, even though they have some valid points, are coming from a different (jaded? disillusioned?) place and so, to members of the Church, it is a skewed perspective. Perhaps your Mormon family would be willing to discuss things with you from their point of view.
Another great one in the books! And I wholeheartedly agree with John about what an amazing interviewer you are! 💖
Aww thank you Laycie! He also made it super easy to interview him with all the great things he had to say!
John is amazing. Could the LDS church own its past since they claim to value honesty? Make systemic change to protect children? This seems so obvious to anyone who isn't drinking the coolaid.
what a lovely man John is.
great discussion.
Really loved this episode. Thank you to both of you for sharing your thoughts and talents!
Thanks so much for listening!
Delightful. Insightful. Thank God for the rapidly growing ex-Mormon community. Outer darkness is way cool!
Unbelievably great session.
Thanks so much, Kent!
I was told that it was Ham that saw Noah drunk and passed out naked and laughed about it with his brothers who was cursed. And that it was black skin that was his curse. In that story, God gave him the mark to keep him safe because he was afraid that him and his children would be persecuted and killed..
God gave him the mark to point to protecting them. So I asked my Dad why don't they protect them then, not give them a humble b.s. charge because they displayed some dignity when speaking to a police officer. How do white people ever use that to justify why they discriminate against black people, even if they do believe the added black skin to be the curse Ham got.
I think I really enjoyed this guest more than any others, so far,…. He is incredibly well researched and presents it in a clear yet articulate way.
He’s a huge powerhouse and OG ex Mormon content creator! He’s been doing it over 20 years. He’s great.
Such an important interview!
Informed consent at 16:29. I think the fear in the past was that members could not handle the truth. They can handle the truth. In fact, if they know the truth they will probably stay active in the church. What people want is more transparency and informed consent re. doctrine, history, priesthood ban, plural marriage, Book of Mormon issues, and other controversies.
What a great discussion with John. As an administrator for a group of "exvangelicals" who see themselves as "cult survivors", the talk from 1:03:10 through a key point at 1:04:24 hits home. Thank you...
*TL;DR:*
Great interview, enjoyable listening to, I 100% agree.
The deep-seated feeling of something being "not right" or defective inside of you is very real, and can even last for decades after you leave the religion. I'm still battling with it.
That part about being indoctrinated with a sense of shame around leaving is also spot on.
Thank you both for helping share the truth in such well thought out and articulated ways. Hopefully it'll help more and more people.
*Story Time:*
Excellent interview, I've never actually heard of Mormon Stories. In fact, your channel, Shelise, is the first mormon centered channel that I've started following. Pretty much just you, Telltale, and occasionally Genetically Modified Skeptic (he's the one that I happened to stumble across originally just a few years ago), plus some random thing if happens to catch my eye.
I'd already left before RUclips and these resources even existed, since I came to the realization that it was false and harmful on my own terms. So for me, watching these is just interesting, given my history, and just nice to see others speaking the same truths that I've known for myself, and enjoying seeing you helping others who might still be unsure.
All that said, even though I know that the religion is false and unhealthy, to this day I'm still challenged with a deep seated core feeling that I'm somehow not right inside and defective. The programming runs so deep.
I'm still working on it in therapy. My therapist and I have talked about my inner disconnect several times, but where all of my cognition around it is spot on yet I can't let go of the low self-esteem and negative feelings toward myself.
He said that usually when people have the level of cognition that I have around it, it connects for them but I've still got something deeper in me that we're trying to figure out.
I was thinking about it 2 days ago after my last session, trying to find what other commonalities might be within all of the instances of feeling negative toward myself and maybe that might precede the negative thoughts.
I was having a mild form of those feelings at the time (triggered by my therapist saying something positive about me, and my automatic kick back feeling and brief thought were to negate it, which I told him about). So after the session I was using that current moment to examine what feeling was deeper down that preceded my mental push back.
Feeling defective inside is something we've talked about before a bit, and I realized that that was the deeper feeling underneath my resistance to something positive being said about me. So I thought about it in relation to other times that I've had negative self thoughts and feelings, and I believe that feeling of being "not right", defective, or broken inside is a core commonality. That feeling very often precedes my negative self-talk.
I know that this came from my extreme religious upbringing, in conjunction with my own personal wiring, and indirectly learned traits from others.
I've said many times that I can't blame my parents or the people in the church, they were just trying to do what they thought was right with the tools they had, and they didn't realize the damage that it does.
I do blame the church teachings though, and it's those destructive teachings that need to change.
Speaking out against it is how we break the generational trauma.
My dad and stepmom were very devout (and my mom), regular temple work and everything. When my dad was bedridden much of the time in his last days, I had visited him and I needed to help my stepmom pull him up in the bed a bit to sit up, and his garment bottoms had pulled down for just a moment as we helped slide him up in the bed and he was mortified. He moaned about us seeing "his shame". Just his wife and his own son who he helped create with that. Yet he was so deeply ashamed of his own reproductive organ that he literally called it his shame.
This is a man who was in the army before he joined the church, he not only bathed with me as a kid (so not only did he help make me, I'd seen it before anyway), but he had to shower with many adult men in his army life, so you'd think he wouldn't have had that deep feeling of shame from it.
But no, even people who think they don't have any trauma from it often do and they don't even realize it, as can be seen from what my dad thought about his own body in his final days when he was weaker and more tired, and so those deep feelings bubbled to the surface more than they would have in the past.
Mormons like to say that the human body isn't shameful, it's just "sacred" and that's why we keep it hidden and only show to a spouse. On the surface it seems like a much better message than the direct shame that some other sects teach. But our brains are smarter than that, you can dress it up in pretty speech like that all you want, but underneath it is absolutely still 100% about shame and it affects us just the same. Especially when paired with the fact that it's considered sin, if you do show your body. It teaches us to be ashamed of our own bodies; our own selves.
I've been told that it's just me overreacting and the religion doesn't cause any harm. It's all just me "not understanding" and taking things "out of context" and being too "black & white" and "just not wanting to be held accountable" (despite still following many of the healthy parts of the moral teachings and being very conscientious) and "I know deep down you still believe"... etc.
I even keep thinking about getting my name officially removed from the rosters, I mentioned it in another video's comment. One aspect I didn't mention there was that there's always a part of me that doesn't want my mom or sisters to feel bad if I did it because then they'll think that our "seal" is broken. When I think about it, it also triggers a feeling in the kind of like not wanting to let my parents down by making it truly official.
On one hand, since I don't believe the religion anyway, it doesn't actually matter to just leave my name there and let my family be happy--no skin off my back. But on the other hand, the church is based on harmful untruths, so every name we take off their roles is one less name that they can use to boost their membership numbers. We all know that they include inactive members in their advertising numbers.
But point being, that part about leaving still has an effect on you, even when you know your family won't judge or distance from you for it, and you yourself are perfectly comfortable with officially being removed and wants to be.
... Oi, I had not thought I was going to write even a fifth of that much! I'll go put a TL;DR at the top!
I just meant to write briefly about the deep seated feeling of being not right inside. It's something that I have to dig farther into, because honestly I still feel and believe it down. Though I recognize where the tendency to have that feeling originated from, I don't believe that that's still the current underlying cause of the feeling--that I have to figure out (though I believe that it's likely associated with my long standing emotional suppression since I was a child for why I feel defective inside).
Wow, loving the energy of you two! ❤
Who needs that kind of God?
John Dehlin, the Martin Luther of the LDS church!
LOL 😆 he doesn't even know if God exists or not !
There are more parallels then you might think. When John got excommunicated, he published the audio of his trial. When Luther got interrogated for heresy, he published the interrogation protocols in printed form, and they went viral. Viral in the 16th century meant that for short prints such as leaflets, printing companies would reprint these things without explicit permission to make money, and so these prints could literally spread across the country without the author's consent. This was the case with Luther's ideas, including his 95 theses.
So the act of leaking trial protocols is an interesting parallel between John Fehling and Martin Luther.
What an epic collaboration!
Thank you Matthew! :D It was a lot of fun!
What can I do to make sure John Dehlin is the new prophet???
all in favor? haha
Nice interview.
Again, it is so shocking to me how much the Mormon church parallels the way the Catholic Church. I totally agree that most large institutions cause harm, sadly.
The POX started out as a policy they quietly snuck into the Chuch Handbook of Instructions. It wasn't announced as a revelation until RMN gave a speech at BYU Hawaii.l explaining it in great detail. Well worth listening to the full audio.
AND nobody else ever claimed it to be a revelation I don't think.
Thank you for such clarity
That was great!
I 100 percent agree with John about your talent. You embody grace, strength, compassion and so much more. The world is becoming a better place because of your voice and the voices of your guests . You are able to create space for guests that allows them to tell their stories without judgment but with a unique gentle-powerfulness. (if that makes sense)
That means a lot. Thank you for saying that ❤️🙏
I so, so, so much agree.
What a great question! And it was wonderful hearing John's answers, along with his reasons why. I particularly liked his perspective about transforming missions. Though (on the topic of Chastity, for instance), one would be better served to recognize the truth behind fallen doctrines, than to throw them out altogether. Wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Incidentally, when my husband turned this question back onto me... I realized there _is_ a way the church could be transformed into something truly healthy. _If_ carefully guided by the genuine intent and prophetic awareness of honest lovingness for everyone involved, the needed enlightenment, transparency, and paradigm shift _could_ allow its transformation into quite an inspiring Zion community. Returning to the authentic purpose for which all churches were created. That way we wouldn't have to lose the empowering community factor we all miss the most outside of it.
It's a fascinating question!! :) Thank you!
That's been my question for a long time. "Why are men so afraid of women?"
The interview we needed! This was great. Thanks! 😊
Thank you, Jenn!
Another thing we need is the return of Jenn's videos to RUclips!
@@mylesmarkson1686 Aww thanks Myles! That day may come. I miss it! ☺️
Oh this is going to be good. My two favorite channels! Ex JW here.
Name a single Jewish, Christian, or Muslim sect/denomination that doesn't preach women are less than men?
It's a problem
Unitarian Universalists
@@susanhaney3437 Unitarian Universalists are not a sect or denomination, but an Association where people from any religious practice can be part of. There might be some Christian, Muslim, or Jewish people that go to the same church, but to be considered a sect oe denomination of them means they have a central doctrine that they all believe in and follow. Getting a bunch of people together that don't have the same central doctrine that they all believe in and follow, is why it's an Association and not a sect or denomination.
The sad truth is nobody can say they are a Christian, a Muslim, or are Jewish if they don't believe in the principles and doctrines of the Abrahamic traditions they're all based from, and those traditions teach that women are subservient to men.
There are many sects of Judaism where women are equal to men.
All Abrahamic religions. The Iron Age.
Today, for the first time ever, I pity the Mormon leaders. In 2023 they each will be fully exposed as having no clothes.
10/23 - not yet, sadly.
Wow, I don't know what to say! John's brought up excellent points! If I got to be prophet, I'd have more inclusion. I don't understand being excluded from the temple. There's all these rules to be mormon!
Had John stayed in the church, he would have made a great bishop.
The church doesn't want bishops that are good in any measure beyond if they will obey higher-ups no matter what.
The legend and the acolyte 👍🏼
John at his BEST,
I am SOOOOO looking forward to this episode!
Wow! I’m wondering why anyone is in the Mormon church!! It is BONKERS!
Haha most are born into it. Those who are converted are never given the full information before they join
The Worldwide Church of God repudiated much of it's doctrine after it's founder Herbert Armstrong died. Several groups seceded from that church and returned to Armstrong beliefs.
When the host said she only found out in 2020 that the Lamanites were cursed with dark skin, what that told me was that she never read The Book of Mormon. While the Church doesn't get up at the pulpit to talk about that specifically (they are too busy talking about what truly matters, salvation for all through the blood of Christ) the members ARE encouraged to read The Book of Mormon. If we want to know what the scriptures say, we have to read them. We can't rely on a 10 minute talk or 45 minute lesson to learn about our scriptures and Church history. We are encouraged to study and learn for ourselves as well. I knew about the curse at 14 years old because I READ The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. People complain about the curse, but what they don't realize is that later in the book, it is the Lamanites who are righteous and shine with the light of Christ and the Nephites become wicked and loathsome. It is the spirit that makes us fair and sin that makes us dark regardless of our actual skin color.
Besides persecution LBTQ children kicked out of thier homes are also in grave danger, subject to things like sex trafficking. It's very dangerous.
My main reason to run away from this church was the racism, reinforced by being considered a second-class citizen, and the stupidity they told me when I asked why a woman must wear a skirt and men must have their hair short. And then, on my way out, I knew being gay was condemned, which made me run faster. This happened years ago, and I am glad I found you guys, so people get to know the reality behind the storytellers in the back of the temples.
By far BEST episode ever!! Thank you John. Your the Best!
Love hearing that! Thanks for watching!
What a great interview! Gained a new subscriber :)
Awesome, thank you!
JS had Napoleonic complex. LDS church has God complex...
a side note that has been bugging me is actually eternal marriage. There seems to be no possibility for divorce in the eternities. What if I get 100 years into eternity and realize I don't want to be with this guy forever? What? Then I gotta spend the next hundred thousand million years with someone I resent? Forever?
The Terrestrial kingdom is the one that I'll be going to, as a good person who isn't "Valiant." And in that kingdom God doesn't get to choose my life plan. I can just do what I want forever. Sounds like the best option by far.
Of course, I don't believe any of that, but I draw comfort in the fact that even if I'm somehow wrong, I'm still going to the place I most want to go. And my husband and children will also go there, so I guess we get to be a family, even if we aren't sealed. And my family who are one level up will get to visit me.
The Peace Corp or American Corp can be good options instead of missionary work
Great comment!!
I totally agree you are an amazing young woman. ❤❤❤❤❤❤
How many Lamanites are there now?
Zero. Since the church has secretly said the BOM is not historical but a spiritual document ***eye roll*** thanks for all your comments!
While in good heart to change the Mormons church in good ways, unfortunately cults can never do more goods than harms. This is the definition of cult, a religion does harms to people. All the tactics, all the manipulations, at the end, are doing harms to people one way or the other, and get people further away from the reality, and all the criteria defining a cult, just a measure how damaging a cult is.
Unfortunately, cults coexist with humanity. It’s cults define cultures. Maybe the best thing to do is actually regulate cults, limit their influences and damages.
If John is a prophet, he won’t be John today anymore. We all can be prophets after the facts. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Hi! I agree that A LOT would have to change to make the church a place where people aren't being actively harmed. As you can see our list was very long and definitely not even the full list of grievances we both had. I think it would have to lean more towards a relaxed community of worship than an actual religion for this to happen. Totally wishful thinking, but that was the point of the fun exercise :)
You do realize all the things a cult does that defines it as a cult, have also been done by every orgazized religion in human history, and are still done by most of them to this day, right?
The only difference between a cult and a religion (using modern definitions) is society says cult=bad; religion=good. Both are a group of people that share the same beliefs regarding a divine being, and the dictrines each preaches is for the sole purpose of controlling the masses by a few, power hungry clergy.
@@CultstoConsciousness I think you don’t understand my point. Cults are the mainstream, cults control everything in the society, not logical people who actively pursuit goods for the society. Cults are called cults because people are actively harmed in the cults. You don’t call a religion a cult if no one is harmed.
Anyway, you are definitely constructive in the thinking of changing the “bad” things in the Mormons church. It’s just changing one thing always change everything. Changing one doctrine will change the whole religion.
@@gothicbagheera There is no such thing called “good” religion. Religion itself is based on false foundation, any current and past and future religions, and by this understanding, religions can only give false promises false hopes, and only going downhill after this. Many can benefit from religions, but only the minority, but never truly beneficial to majority. Unfortunately religions are necessary for many people even it’s damaging. The existence of religion can be justified, but the damage needs to be limited.
@@LittleRadicalThinker sounds like you've been emotionally scarred pretty severely by religious institutions.
John! Im a straight 73 year old lady but you sure are looking young. Sat hi to Margie! We love ya'll!
My daughter that got married in the temple in 2002 wouldn't believe me when I told her about the penalties. And even though she is divorcing her eternal companion she married that day she still believes in eternal marriage. 🤔 So hard to break the brainwashing. She helps the missionaries with their contacts in her ward in South Carolina. I don't think she really even knows what the Church really believes. She loves the culture like my mom who had never read the scriptures according to my dad but loved the culture and could not understand how I could leave the FAMILY church. She walked out of the room when I asked her if she loved Jesus.
Hi Polly! That’s heartbreaking. There is something I heard from one of my recent guests @altworldly who is ex Jehovah’s Witness that resonated. Everything good about the church isn’t unique and everything unique isn’t good. Community can be found in less abusive places. I wish more people could see that. Thanks for sharing!
I appreciate the shout out to Unitarian Universalists and the “Our Whole Lives” sex education program ❤. I believe the UCC (United Church of Christ) also developed that program/runs it in conjunction with UUs.
Listening to you all I just remembered being part of a Unity Church and a Morman man showed up who had gotten in trouble due to sexual perversion of some sort. I remember being creeped out and kept my kids super close to me and away from him. I totally forgot about that but it all makes sense now.
Oh my gosh! The Gay stance given from the church explains why a loved one of mine and his stance on Gay supporters!! He found out I liked John Dehlin and he had some very strong offensive words about him 😢. It made me really sad because I feel the same way and he doesn’t know. So I’m concerned to let him know because he might just hate me… idk 🤷♀️ But he also thinks the church is corrupted but “true” and that we need worthy men in these offices. He and his wife also think that JS never practiced polygamy but that it started with Brigham Young (Brighamites). Also that journals were changed to taint JS. That’s what he believes. Crazy!
Seriously! We thank thee oh God for a Johnphette to guide us in these battered says. GO John Dalin(sp?)
Religion is a personal choice through prayer faith and your personal progression as you learn by your mistakes we all make mistakes the greatest commandment is to love one another
21:21 I would think that if this happened to all churches, they would go away but then again seeing how many people don’t believe in facts, they probably would still be around.
Great point. I think a lot of times faith pervades fact, which is why a lot of them still exist.
One of the things I would do is give every single living people back their tithing money, current and former members, including babies. Every living person. The church keeps such good records, that should be no problem. The church would keep the money from people now deceased and all of the interest on the whole shebang as well as their investments. That would still leave the church well off. Then they switch over to telling people to share whatever they want directly to wherever they see need.
Love this! I've heard of people suing the church to get their thousands in tithing back based on fraudulent claims. I wonder how many people win. They definitely deserve to get their money back.
Babies don't pay tithing, so how can you give them their money back?
No? I figured their parents did it for them for any gifts the babies received, the way they whisper to wee ones to say I know the church is true. But thank you for clarifying this for me. @@sarahh.8579