Thomas Sowell Dismantles Egalitarianism (Frances Fox Piven Edition)
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- In this clip from the 1980 Free To Choose, socialist Frances Fox Piven tangles with Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell. Sowell, in particular, is incisive with his discussion of "process" versus aspiration -- concluding that whatever the purported social goals, liberty suffers.
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A free people will never be equal, and a people ( made) equal will never be free. It's really that simple.
John Amidon amen
Thus the bait for willing slaves is set.
True
People "made" equal, will also never be equal.
Interesting
3 important questions I learned to ask because I listened to Thomas Sowell:
Compared to what?
At what cost?
What hard evidence do you have?
Sihing Pierre He uses reason, not emotions and rhetoric. This is the source of seeking truth.
Yes, he said that arguments from the left usually don't live up to those three questions
It's funny because no one is asking those questions when revering capitalism :) And no, comparing performance of a capitalist system to totalitarian socialist systems is a proof of high-IQ retardation rather than a valid argument :)
It is simply amazing how much BS you can cut through using three simple questions.
@@Tome4kkkk well you have to compare to real stuff you know?
The older I get, the more I enjoy a black person berating a white liberal for deciding to speak and think for black people.
Tomas Sowell is just incredible.
Absolutely, it's one thing to have compassion and attempt to see things from the perspective of another race beyond our own, but another to downright pretend we've somehow also lived as another. In respect for accuracy, everyone should tactfully lead the sharing of the most genuine experiences of their own race to help society most accurately understand. Sowell is the black man here, let him represent his people lady! Also not to obsess too much, risk of polarizing everything into race (ala Twitter tirades today, etc).
A white liberal is the most racist. They spout this crap and then go home to their nice neighborhood with white faces
And Sowell acting as though he speaks for all black people implies that blacks are to some degree a monolith. Sowell speaks for a minority of the black community.
Only an old white man would find Sowell's ideas 'just incredible.'
@Ken Wells he berates her for saying something correct. she’s not speaking for black people, she’s simply stating a fact: inequality in education was a significant issue of concern for the black civil rights movement in the 60s. sowell indicates very firmly that this is incorrect, but it is indeed correct, historical, factual, even widely accepted.
"Like most people, I've never seen a pollster."
omgutubeismylife I love that
Amen!
Like most people I've never seen a Pollster.
Even today...That statement wins the internet...
She says, "Black Leaders", you mean like Martin Luther King, Jr? Like Malcolm X? They spoke out against the very crap she was promoting. Which is probably why they died so early on, am I right?
No, she's referring to the sell outs like Reverend Jackson and Al Sharpton.
"Like most people I have never seen a pollster!" - Sowell
What an awesome true statement! Sowell is the sage of our age.
"You get greater equality of actual results by a system under which people are free to achieve unequal results" - Friedman
Friedman is possibly the wisest man to live in the 20th century. He is truly missed.
What does Sowell mean by that?
what do you think of Ludvig von Mises?
I'd give that label to Mises or Rothbard
Polls were taken which asked a sample of black people if they supported affirmative action, most said no. She says randomly without any evidence that Thomas Sowell puts the ideas into the pollsters heads that black people don't support affirmative action, he responds that he has never even met a pollster which highlights how ridiculous her assertion is.
@EthanNoble Me too. Friedman trusted government and politicians too much, thats why Mises said: "You're all a bunch of socialists".
Imagine trying to win a debate when you're up against Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell. Good luck.
were can i get d full debate
And you have a dumb premise to defend like socialism
Simply they will win because they are speaking the truth. There is only one truth. The rest is just opinions
Depends what you're debating. If it were say, which types of ground you need toothed buckets for, or whether you can weld gray cast with a 7018, I'd probably be at an advantage
@@avonflex5031 To me, this looks like a series Milton Friedman has done. They are called Free to Choose. After some explanations in form of a movie, a debate is held at the end of each part. There are 10 in total but I don't know from which this clip is.
Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman in the same room....I wish I could have been there. God bless both of them.
You can add Carl Sagan in there too.
God was probably in the audience (in disguise).
Friedman was an evil man who caused the death of thousands of people due to his economic experiments especially in South America.
@@samoralink8952 What is your evidence to support this claim?
@@samoralink8952 WTF are you talking about?
Why don't we have shows like this on television anymore?! Screw Keeping Up With the Kardashians, that's GARBAGE! THIS!! This is what we NEED! Education!
+varanidguy Supply flows to where the demand is, its what the people want
+Claudius Odermatt - Not exactly. It's what the people are FED.
Lisa T No one is forcing you to consume
Lisa T You're consuming on your freedom of choice and free will
Claudius Odermatt - I don't watch the trash on TV. It's boring. There are very few programs on today's TV that are intellectual or educational. Most are with a leftist slant and predictable. Thanks, but no thanks. I prefer to live in reality because I don't believe in unicorns and pixie dust.
Ahhh, the good ol’ days. Remember when our public debates used to sound like that? Remember when left and right robustly debated facts and philosophies? What a joke we’ve become.
Ken MacDonald
Delusional i see
I miss these times. People discussed ideas and policies rather than just call each other names..
jawhitak once someone starts calling names, the other has won the argument
now the answer would be YOU RACIST KRAKKA
"If you dont want to trade freedom for welfare, you aint black" - JB
I thought of the same exact thing! it's infuriating how long this idea has persisted, especially in the presence of such brilliant minds as Thomas Sowell's
Wow, never seen Sowell lose his patience like that.
I'm against getting anger in debates but can't blame him listening to that manipulative hag.
He did kind of.lose it
It took me a minute to understand why
What she said was so radically racist
He was unwilling to go backwards
Even this he does well - what a great guy!
mdjcsmith, he wants to distract you with his anger so you don’t notice that he is lying. Consistently the polls show that 69-84% of black people surveyed agree with affirmative action. Today 63% of white people do. He lies!
I thought egalitarianism was just that everyone had equal rights and opportunities, not equal outcome
We've had equal rights and opportunities for decades. The results are not what the leftists wanted to see so now they want to control the outcomes by restricting rights and opportunities to the races and genders of people that did well with their opportunities in life... I.E white and Asian men. They have become authoritarian and truly believe their discrimination is just and right.
no
Sadly most modern people think that egalitarianism is equal outcome.
It's exactly that. He is making a strawman, but people are too sentimental with their own dogmas to even notice.
It's communism now. They are trying to control speech too
Thomas Sowell is the most bad ass black man to ever walk the face of this earth ...the most Under rated Scholar as well !
He sure is!
He might be one of them
...MLK Jr
...Dr. Ben Carson
...I don't necessarily agree with Islam but cassius clay/Ali was pretty brilliant TBH
I could go on with a few more
Honestly I doubt there has ever been anyone SMARTER than Ben Carson
He is an equal among the most high intellects that have ever lived
George Washington Carver
.. George Washington
pat saultz ....I respect his iconoclastic mannerisms. Even though I respect the Ne Deal and Great Society
How about Huey Lewis
I think I actually saw Thomas roll his eyes.....and I love it
Honestly he totally lost it for almost a minute
It took me a minute or five to understand why tho
That’s the closest I’ve ever seen him come to losing his cool. He was right, too.
He was younger.
milton friedman and Thomas Sowell are together ♥ :O
Thomas Sowell is still alive.
Milton Friedman is in the video
Abdul Gemayyel this is from free to choose series by milt it was a great series
There's an awesome debate for privatizing schools that has William f Buckley, Thomas Sowell, and Milton Friedman all on one side. Amazon has it and I think youtube has parts of it for free if you look hard enough.
thats because milton was his mentor
My babies' intellects are increasing just by my playing this in the background of their playtime.
I know it is true.
😂yas!!!!!
u can never start Good habits or discourse too early in a child's life.
were can i watch full debate
@@avonflex5031 I'm looking for that too.
It is true
they are becoming more equal
It must of been a pleasure in going to school everyday to be able to listen Thomas Sowell lecture about economics. I almost envy those students that had the privilege to hear this brilliant man speak.
You can still have that same privileges.. pretty much every talk they've done is available on youtube. You have it better than they did actually back then
Dylan Stewart God bless the free-market!
"almost"
Thomas Sowell should be the hero of the black community, he's a brillant mind!
Unfortunately black community call him all degrading names because he speak the truth.
You guys need to stop this identity politics.
He should be the hero of all communities.
when he finally passes on (and he getting quite old) nyt will give him brief mention somewhere in the corner of some nondescript page
Sammy's Cello Journey , I've heard he has to live in seclusion because of death threats by the black community.
Sowell nails it in his first sentence: talking at cross purposes. Sowell is talking from quantifiable fact and Piven is talking from rhetoric. The difference is substantive, especially as Sowell knows he is arguing from fact, and Piven does not seem to know that she is only arguing from rhetoric.
This is the seminal problem of public discourse in our times. Never mind Social Media whipping up the mid-wits on any or all given sides. You cannot have any agreement when one side always argues in what is de facto bad faith. It has only gotten worse in 40 years.
Thomas Sowell is a frigg'n genius. He's written several books, some of which I've read and heartily recommend.
+Walter Strong Which book would you recommend?
+Walter Strong So completely agree. One gains IQ points simply by reading Sowell's work.
+Walter Strong Yup, he's written forty books.
+Walter Strong recommend just one?
Yes.
I love Thomas Sowell so much. Wish he'd live forever.
“Like most people I have never seen a pollster.” Same Thomas, same. Sill relevant today in 2020
Love Sowell. I have also loved Milton Friedman. Takes me back to better days when facts and logic could be heard.
You're such a stereotype
"Like most people I have never seen a pollster!" - true then and true today. Love Thomas Sowell.
Sowell’s reasoning is always powerful and compelling. I wish he had a more prominent role today - his wisdom is sorely needed.
Great quote from Thomas Sowell later on. "we live in a anointed state where the anointed decide how you should feel." Fits well here when he talks about black people not polling on affirmative action, the anointed polled for affirmative action putting affirmative action in the black peoples mouth.
Where can I watch the entire debate?
Tom's just too good. The smartest guy in the room every single time.
Percy Bolondo That would surely be Friedman.
Not when Freidman is there
Watching these videos makes me depressed at how :
We knew all this decades ago.
Our society is even less intelligent now than it was then.
At least you can say some of the liberals on here couldn't know the net result of how every one of these policies would fail. Now we do know this and people want to keep doubling down on something which not only doesn't work but it has counterproductive results.
read letters written by the average Joe in WW1 and WW2. You can clearly see how much dumber we are. the proficiency of language use has plummeted
dcgregorya the leftist imbeciles who killed Classical liberalism cling to the futile hope that their ideas - much like a 35 year old who lives in a basement smoking pot and playing video games - will some day work.
america let us down. kill it before it breeds
You win the top comment award for this video. Well stated.
dcgregorya so true.
Notice how Sowell is an economist, the opponent is in political science. One is a useful occupation.
Economists - the clergy class of today.
It's more like political science has been subverted by a league interested in advancing its goals rather than pursuing truth.
Economics have been politicized to cheerlead capitalist economic logic and values.
Economics is theory based. Civilizations existed and thrive for thousands of years without Economists.
@Dr. Georgio Yakatura
Not nearly as useful as Cicero.
I find it funny that she essentially asserted that you first need equality of outcome to achieve equality of opportunity.
“A lot of people are born at the bottom of the society.” Girl please. It’s all a mindset. Do u think poor Asians come to America say aw I wish I somebody gave me money while i do nothing? No
Its amazing that even today 'equality of opportunity' is derided and 'equality of outcome' is considered morally superior by the Progressives. I shudder to think what would I have been if I had not known of Sowell and Milton. For sure, I'd have been a progressive as that's the 'factory setting' for most urban IT professional like myself.
I'm not sure who's more awesome: Thomas Sowell or Milton Friedman? Piven is a microbe amongst intellectual giants.
+David Pearson piven is a virus among aliens heheheh
Just like Yoda and Obi-Wan. Can't choose!
Fred Pearson I love them both to death. But Thomas lays down the absolute FIRE on race issues. It's so cathartic... and I'm a Korean man living in South Korea.
Fred Pearson I don't compare them. They're both great 👍.
@@veryliberalprogressiveathe6117 I agree
This mans should have been president instead of Obama
Sowell is a BOSS ... I wish everyone could think so logically and truthfully
Milton Friedman was like 'Man I could really use some popcorn right now'
"You expressed it dammit!!!"
Love this moment
When Sowell gets mad lol
That was great.
I could listen to Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell all day.
Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman top 10 anime collaborations
Friedman should be required reading for everyone.
As well as his son.
Economics in one lesson should as should the problem with socialism
Wanna have a bad day? Include in it a debate with Thomas Sowell. He will wipe up the floor with you.
/\ There are no three sentences which better sum up the talents of Mr. Sowell.
Maybe
I would debate anyone on almost anything
It's fun
:)
He is one of the most brutal debaters I’ve ever seen. He talks with such vigour and confidence. He provides facts and a rational explanation to every claim put informant of him.
"Like most people I have never seen a pollster"
"get wealthy with a permit to set up a television station"
Such gratitude towards Mr Sowell and Mr Friedman for fighting the good fight and setting such powerful examples and education so that we may carry that torch for the next generation. I love reading and watching videos of them. Their worlds are just as true, if not more so, today.
I've always considered myself an egalitarian but for equality of opportunity. These folks are arguing for equality of outcome. Less government intervention and more personal freedom is all the equality we need.
Love me some Thomas Sowell.
Equality is great, but equity is a race to the bottom.
Intellectual MMA. I love it. Friedman, Sowell - heavyweight champions of Freedom.
I love hearing Sowell say "damn it."
Never saw Sowell get riled up before!
Dammit, woman! Lol
Never enter a battle of wits with Thomas Sowell unarmed.
"They expressed it"
Sowell is sitting there like: I'm sitting right in front of you... no I didn't...
This man’s message has depth and weight. Thank you
Dr. Sowell is truly brilliant.
"People should be FREE to achieve unequal results." Milton Friedman
One of the smartest men I've ever listened to. A real American. God Bless TS
One of my favorite speakers, Thomas Sowell, he is a fine American and a brilliant man.
There is no such thing as equality between people. Equality is a mathematical
term that is used to describe a relationship between abstract quantities. What
people who use the term "equality" really mean to say is, "People are alike.".
2:15 Sowell goes intellectual commando on the white liberal woman explaining a black person's perspective like she magically just knows wtf.
Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell in the same panel together.... Im so joyful.
I wrote Dr. Sowell, about 2 yrs. into Obama's first term, when I had given up, counting communist Obama's actual crimes at 67, and when some of the laws he broke, were laws HE HAD SIGNED into law. I asked him to run for president, that I voted for 'content of character', NOT the color of skin, and we needed a man of integrity, a brave person who was a truth teller. To my shock, I learned his age, and that he had been asked to run, but figured, probably correctly, that he could do more, writing articles and books. You have my total respect, Sir, I just wish those in the 'black community' AND the white liberals, all of whom are brainwashed by the Marxists, would LISTEN to the truths you speak.
Dr. Sowell has achieved greatness 10 times over!
The greatest cause of inequality is government programs. Mind blown.
Love it all. I wish we had more debates like these in today's world 🌏.
Friedman is always so clear and concise, so easy to listen to
Sowell: "Like most people, I have never met a Pollster"
Epic..
Thomas Sowell is my hero. An honest thinking man.
"Intellectuals were not in that protest movement, black people were in that protest movement" Okay, girl. Tell me how you really feel.
Brilliant! What a duo! The master and his protegé
I have followed Dr. Friedman and Dr. Sowell during my college days. Very impressive men to say the least.. I really had to pay attention to what Dr. Sowell was saying, as it was thought provoking and took a little longer to sink in. Dr. Friedman to me was a little more easier to understanding as he tenderd to use easily understood examples to make his point.
Just to let you know, I had purchased Basic Economics a few days after your comment. It came in eBay a week or so ago. Been busy with school, but I'll go through it soon. Thanks for your help!
I love Sowell’s hand swipe at 2:32
Then Piven gives him the stink-eye, LOL.
off topic: Is Sowell 50 in this video? I can't belive he is, bt Wikipedia says he was born in 1930.
Crazy, he looks about 35 haha
He's 89 now
Can we talk about his hair for a second? Modern black women are supposed to be celebrated for flaunting their natrual curls in the face of racist buainess standards. Thomas Sowell rocked the fro during some of the most influential intellectual conversations of our time. 50+years ago!
"You get greater equality of actual results by a system under which people are free to obtain unequal results."
Criticize all you want but the fact is, this program had successfully brought on people from two sides of the argument who are well read, and well spoken to have a productive and intellectually enriching debate.
Fast forward to Today. We have Twitter.
2:26 - Two things stand out to me here. First, This is the only time I have ever seen Tom Sowell lose his cool, and that man is the epitome of cool.
Second, while Dr. Sowell is trying hard not to detonate, Friedman, the economists economist and Sowell’s sensei, is sitting just as relaxed as can be with a smirk on his face because he can see several minutes into the future and knows that he’s about to mop the floor with Fran Piven’s perm.
Man, he demolished that Karen. "Like most people, I've never met a pollster." HA!
I saw this in 1980, but time has passed I just don't remember if it was before or after I Graduated from Parris Island.
These are the ones we should have more on TV. Thomas Sowell and Friedman on one stage. Wow, nice!
Removing any barrier to advancement not giving any sector a special privileged
wow that was so simple and hit the point right on the spot
egalitarianism sounds a lot like everyone gets a trophy
"These 2 have never admitted to being wrong on a single point of their philosophy."
Actually, Sowell used to be a Marxist.
The final choice, as taught by history, is very clear: Do you want more wealth for yourself or do you want equalized distribution of poverty?
“After the fall of communism, everyone in the world agreed that socialism was a failure, and everyone in the world agreed that capitalism was a success, but what the capitalists deduced from that, was that what the West needed was more socialism”. Milton Friedman
These Communists were not only wrong, but they were so wrong that we are seeing the collapse of nations as a result of communism all over again.
Tom is one of the most underrated minds of our time. He is a wise man far beyond the goofballs he is arguing against here.
Can you imagine Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, and Jordan Peterson together fighting all this nonsense
Damn this dude is smart
hes another in a long line of right wing nuts wanting small government nothing particularly brilliant about his stance ! he lives in the same fantasy as Milton Freidman where everything will run great if government almost disappears ! time has proven that wrong everywhere including here
thegreatonecometh200 you are correct to say he is a nut according to those who want others to control their mind for them. I will govern my own mind thank you.
thegreatonecometh200 where exactly has that been proven?
The best way to achieve equality is to treat everyone equally.
Great idea!
Why can't we have programs like this today?
Anyone have the full video of this debate? I'd love to be able to watch it in its entirety.
Thomas Sowell makes me ache for the rest of humanity to have his capacity for intellectual thought and ability to have constructive argument.
There is nothing special about his arguement, he just takes economics on a surface level
I love Milton and Thomas equally. :)
I love Tom Sowell. A true thinker, and asset to a free nation.
"Freedom to achieve unequally." What a great concept.
Thomas S is what a creative mind produces . Cherish him
It's makes me so angry tht ppl don't get what Thomas sowell is talking about
Piven gets owned. Period.
A gov ascribing people to certain groups or categories creates an administrative system that fixes people into those categories and then leaves them there.
That's not freedom. That is a way for some people to get wealthy off of social programs while the ones meant to benefit from them remain poor.
Where is this nowadays... My generation needs to hear this
He was a great voice for such a time. Would like to see more of him nowadays on TV!