Fear the Old Lore - The Sealing of Destined Death
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- Опубликовано: 1 фев 2024
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The sealing of Destined Death is perhaps one of the most taken for granted pieces of information in the lore of Elden Ring. Between the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince and the Remembrance of the Black Blade, it's easy to assume Destined Death was sealed when Maliketh took the blade into himself, creating the Golden Order, but this isn't the full picture.
In this episode of Fear the Old Lore, we'll challenge the notion that the "sealing" of Destined Death created the Golden Order by comparing the English and Japanese text of the game.
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Игры
My personal thought is that Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, which "disabled" its effect of True Death being an inevitability for all beings, and this new Deathless reality is the founding of the Golden Order, like a reversal of our use of Mending Runes to create a new Order. Additionally, this likely caused the Black Flame to lose its potency, since it seems to be a derivative of the Rune of Death's power. Marika then gave the Rune to Maliketh to seal it in his sword, because as we see with its fragments later on, as well as those of the shattered Elden Ring, Great Runes can still be used by the individual who possesses it even when it's disconnected from the main Ring, it just is no longer an omnipresent "passive" effect. This is how the Rune of Death was "sealed," because it meant that only Maliketh could make use of it. So the only difference between Maliketh having the Black Blade vs it being sealed inside himself is that not even he himself could access its power anymore.
Oooooooh this is good. The wielding of the great rune is a great example of how it would have worked
yeah this explains it neatly. when it was a sword, nox illusions could allow ranni to take a piece without being detected to use. after this happened maliketh realized this was a problem and put it out of immediate reach of anyone. and I think he greatly regretted ever having it in his control bc he feels guilty for failing marika so badly. Maliketh was known and feared as the death of the demigods and wielder of destined death before the night of the black knives; maybe he was quite proud of his grim reaper role and regretted that that pride resulted in overconfidence and common knowledge of the location of the rune of death, making it easy to subvert the golden order and steal destined death.
Similarly I think the foundation of the specifically golden order was at some point early on but not at the immediate beginning of marika's reign after the war with the giants; personally I think the key reason she plucked destined death was that the erdtree's blessings had run out and her society could no longer persist indefinitely off of them; a natural endpoint of leyndell's dominance in the world. Indeed if that's the case would make sense that around that time another empyrean would make a play for the elden ring, the gloam eyed queen, at marika's weakest point. but maliketh defeated her and destined death was sealed in his blade, and a new era began, where those who were raised on the blessings of the erdtree would persist more or less indefinitely in one form or another, in their souls.
Yes, exactly my thoughts!
I feel like Marika removing the Elden Ring was literally her plucking it out and having malikath seal it.
I feel as though the removal of the rune of death and it’s confinement within maliketh’s blade happened consecutively, that is to say: one happened immediately after the other, Just like the shattering of the Elden ring, and the shattering war which presumably followed in quick succession.
That can't be true, as Maliketh sealed it in his body only after it was stolen in the first place, meaning only after Ranni stole it used it to kill Godwin and her body
@@cipher48 I said Blade, please read in the future.
@@MoreLoreThenThereSeems no need to be rude but all right. my mistake
@@cipher48 I had just woken up
agree with this idea and was my personal thought as well, namely on the basis of recognizing that maliketh putting the blade inside himself and in the blade were different events, and that it had to be stealable before the night of black knives. indeed while destined death was not normal, maliketh was known as the death of the demigods and feared as something of a grim reaper maybe, so it was still possible to use just not normal in people's lives.
now some speculation that might be proven wrong or might not be the most likely:
I think a key moment in the chronology and rise of the golden order is the end of the age of plenty. It fundamentally reshaped the Leyndell society. Beforehand the blessings of the erdtree were assumed infinite and there didn't need to be manipulation of death, etc, to maintain erdtree society. Champions would fall dead once their duty was done, and perhaps this was not true destined death actually but still it could be a reflection of fate/destined death. At this time the erdtree was the center of worship as the giver of life. After it ran out along its natural course as a natural part of the world, however, without a change Marika's erdtree/leyndell society would have declined like those before. Instead she removed the rune of death from the elden ring, the religion became more focused on marika as the one true god and the erdtree as a symbol, and marika herself tried to alter the doctrine from more miraculous-blessing/pure-faith type to fundamentalism, that is rational investigation of the depths of the mechanics of the elden ring and the world itself. (This also relates to some of the points about how sexual reproduction more or less came to a halt in golden order society, maybe gradually; I remember this from the video on it but I don't remember how much of that content is cut).
So the golden order began with the sealing of destined death after the end of the age of plenty as a way to stave off the natural decline of the erdtree civilization by preserving it indefinitely. around the time of the end of the age of plenty may also have been the time when the gloam-eyed queen attacked the erdtree civilization, seeing an opportunity as an empyrean to take control of the elden ring, but was defeated; and perhaps the queen's use of destined death inspired/gave marika the idea of sealing destined death as a way to preserve her rule.
Probably worth noting that the God-slaying black flame is not necessarily god-slaying. The JP text uses 神狩り, which would more literally be god-hunting or god-harvesting. Additionally, 神 doesn't necessarily always mean god. Besides god, deity, or divinity, it can also mean spirit, psyche, or soul.
I wouldn't be surprised if "spirit-reaping" or "soul-reaping" black flame was a more accurate translation.
I'd say this is just a case of the Japanese text being a bit more loose than English. -狩り *gari* is pretty well known colloquially for being akin to "-slaying," and a successful "hunt" usually ends with slaying one's prey. It might be more relevant to prefer the "hunting" reading later on though, but for now it's a big shrug out of ten.
The way I see it, Destined Death was part of the previous political regime of the Gloomed eyed queen, Death was a natural part and the basis of the religion at the time. Once Marika overthrow her, and, wanting a kingdom eternal, removed the rune of death from the Elden Ring. She gave it to Maliketh who became it's guardian, placing it inside his blade. The Golden Order is born, not being a political institution but a religious and philosophical one.
Overtime, the age of plenty is over. Godfrey Grace was taken away from him, Radagon became Elden Lord, and the Golden Order became the political institution. Just before the night of black knifes, a fragment of Destined Death was successfully stolen. Maliketh saw the consequences and sealed the rune within himself. Doing so, the black flame and it's users lost a part of their powers. Then, Marika shattered the Elden Ring.
About the Black Flame at the time, it's indeed a good question. I think there is two options :
-First one, it had the power of Destined Death before, but once the rune was removed from the Elden Ring and placed inside Maliketh's Blade, it wasn't a part of natural order anymore, and so lost a big parts of its powers, not being enough to kill the Demi Gods.
-Second one : once the rune of Death was removed, the Black Flame completely lost its powers. Once the night of the black knifes happened, the Apostles tried to find the corpses of the Demi Gods to imbue their weapon with death, igniting the Black Flame again, even if it's not at its full power like before, because Maliketh realized what happened and immediately sealed the Rune of Destined Death within himself. That's why we had to fight a Noble before finding Ranni's body.
I'm not 100% sure about the second one, I prefer the first one.
The Gloam Eyed Queen is only ever called an empyrean, never a god, so I don't think Marika overthrew her. Either the GEQ tried to overthrow Marika or both competed for the Elden Ring during a power vacuum.
@@michaelhenry3234 It's possible yes, it was also my first idea a long time ago, that she was an self proclaimed queen who intended a putsch against Marika. But thinking about Farum Azula, especially the city ties to death, the death birds rituals on the forbidden lands, the fact that Marika removed the rune of Death from the Elden Ring without suffering any consequences from the dominant Outer God, made me think that the story shown is about two Out Gods fighting each other, with the Elden Ring at its center as the ultimate price to enforce their vision on the world. I think the gloomed eyes queen was the Queen of that time (she is an Empyrean just like Marika), Placidusax was her Elden Lord, and there is their Elder God, who I think was not the Greater Will (the Outer God of Order) at that time, but the Out God of Death. To me it's the only logical explanation for such an important change of view toward Death and why Marika could removed it.
@@bluewings2 Why would Marika suffer consequences for removing the Rune of Death? There's no indication the Greater Will cares how exactly Order is manifested, just that a chosen empyrean does it. It considered Malenia to be an empyrean, even though she's the most intensely inhabited by an Outer God of perhaps anyone in the game. If the Greater Will is fine with a puppet of the Outer God of Rot creating an Order of Rot, why would it fight over the Elden Ring with the Outer God of Death? An Order of Death is still an Order.
To believe Farum Azula was the vassal of an Outer God that the Greater Will took over, you have to justify ignoring two major things: 1) The Greater Will sent the Elden Ring to the Lands Between and Farum Azula had the Elden Ring and an Elden Lord. In your scenario, the Greater Will sent the Elden Ring, the Elden Ring was usurped by an Outer God, and then the Greater Will got it back? That's a little convoluted imo. 2) The Gloam Eyed Queen was an empyrean "chosen by the Two Fingers." There's no maneuvering around this, for your theory to be correct, you have to ignore this. The Two Fingers are agents of the Greater Will and they chose their rival's puppet? That doesn't make sense to me.
Consider, the Greater Will made the Elden Ring, so death and its rune is within the purview of Order. The GEQ was empowered specifically by the Rune of Death, not by the power of an Outer God like Malenia, the Fire Giant, Shabriri, etc. She was empowered by a rune, by the Elden Ring, by the grace of gold. Order. Why would worship of the ancient dragons not conflict with Marika's religion if they were of her enemy's regime? The 1.0 version of the game even clarifies in Cinquedea that the beasts were granted intelligence by the _Greater Will._ Why would the Greater Will be granting intelligence to its enemy's servants? Of course, that text was changed so it can't be uncritically taken as canon, but it shows what the writers were thinking close to release. And it lines up with the modern beasts all serving the Greater Will.
Personally, I think the removal of Destined Death delineates the end of the Crucible and the beginning of the Golden Order, both eras of gold and both under the Greater Will, but the latter Marika's attempt at preserving her reign. (Which we know the Greater Will didn't care about, since it chose empyreans to replace her) The Crucible is both a manifestation of the Elden Ring's gold, the physical predecessor to the Erdtree, and representative of that era's Order. It is described as chaotic, uncivilized, and associated with competition. Things related to the Crucible sprout growths, feathers, claws, etc. I think the Crucible represents evolution. It was the era in which the Greater Will's project of life evolved. It was brutal, tough, and a survival of the fittest, ruled by prehistoric (this is literally what they are called) dragons. Beasts developed opposable thumbs (five fingers) and gained intelligence. It was an era defined by death because only through death can the fittest outlive the weak and genes compete. The Ancient Dragons wielded red lightning because of the Rune of Death, the Crucible was of red gold because of the Rune of Death. Marika's removal of Destined Death effectively put the world in stasis, with her at the top, and thus evolution (both literal and figurative) could not occur. The Golden Order are like us, we don't really consider evolution to affect us, we're beyond all that, we're civilized... right?
Were you sealing the rune Of destined death inside the neighbor's dog at the end there😂😂
Gotta catch him first.
Gotta admit i dont see any difference between either translation of your opening statement.
ED: took me 5x to understand. I guess I just consider anything not in the order as confined. Removing the rune of death IS confining it outside conventional existence imo.
Destined Death gives a true death. The GEQ and her Godskins used DD until it was sealed by Maliketh. This was a big turning point in the battle between Marika and the GEQ.
So I'm assuming black flame can still just BARELY kill Demigods but maybe not a full-on God.
Or maybe black flame CAN give a true death but only to mortals and didn't affect Demigods at all
Miquella is Mycelia, Helphen's Steeple is Hyphae's Shelter which are Trees, Hyphae (Mycelium threads/fingers) comes from Hephaestus who is a god of fire and our gods of fire are water, plants, and fungi.
My guess is that Melina got the rune of death for safekeeping from Marika after the war against the giants, after Marika removed death from the elden ring. After Melina thought about this entire "deathless golden order with a god tyrant" thing, she rebelled and founded the fodskin apostles along with some fire monks. After that, she got beaten by Maliketh, he absorbed the greatrune and Melina got reincarnated, but reshaped, into who we see now. For Maliketh to absorb death, death already had to be a removed rune from the elden ring, he was not Marikas first choice as a vessel for the rune of death. Possibly because shadowbound beasts can be influenced by the greater will, making such a dog the grim reaper, the only being able to actually end even demigods, would be a bad idea. Melina has a whole phrophecy attached to her, Marika could have interpreted that as "someone with a connection to fire can be used to store death", but she guessed wrong.
I feel like this one is alot of semantics, the golden order could have begun at both points as they couldve happened literally seconds after eachother. marika could have just removed the rune of death and handed it to maliketh who was right beside her. This has no effect on the story of the golden order if youre asking if it was created literal seconds apart from when the rune was removed, or the seconds after when he sealed it. It also makes no difference on the power of the black flame, as both things happening relatively at the same time either one could be an excuse for it losing its power.
First