Related Stallman quote: "Computers need to be defenestrated, which means either throw Windows out of the computer, or throw the computer out the window."
When Linus says he was joking, he doesn't mean he didn't believe what he was saying. He absolutely did. He just means he tried to phrase his thoughts in the funniest way he could think of.
Right. He really thought the persons code submission was stupid. The EPIC insult was the funny hyperbole. It's like back in the 80s how people (mostly young ones obviously) would have insult competitions with each other to see who could be the most savage.
Being 'civilised' has it's price. When everyone is expected to act politely you inevitably develop paranoia. A person acting weirdly towards you, because they hate you and would gladly drown you in a nearest puddle, given a chance, or are they just absentminded worrying about something personal? You'll never be sure.
@@AntiCookieMonster This 100%. I have a friend who expressed this sentiment very well. He's incredibly rude with close coworkers all the time. But that rudeness acts like a barrier against serious harm-intended insults because they must reach a very personal level and the tone must be precise to actually harm. So the conversations are more relaxed even if they're often appearing more negative. I'm not that rude with my coworkers but I had the exact opposite kind of person where they take everything very seriously and trigger on the slightest things. And it's a massive pain to not be sure how to phrase yourself without hurting someone. As an example I got complained at for not inviting him to speak on something in a meeting "I knew" he would have something to say about. He could have raised his hand, and of corse I knew he has strong opinions but I didn't know that the expectation was on me to make him talk. Frankly it's childlike but I can't pick who I work with. Edit: To be clear: I'm stepping on eggshells around him and he's not often offended because of that. But this is just a clear example of how I know it's necessary to be stepping on eggshells around him and it's a burden.
I will say, when Linus said "he was being honest", he wasn't backpedaling, it's just how it is. In Finland, unless you're in a formal setting, if you do a shit job, be prepared for your job to be cursed at.
The "critizized" person screwed up big time and probably not the first time. Linus fired a broad salve of sarcasm. That's his appraoch to criticism. I like it!
There are two respects here. Respect as a person, and respect as a software developer. You can absolutely tell someone their code sucks ass and needs to be fixed without saying you're surprised they made it to adulthood.
This exactly. And I think this sometimes misses the mark when it comes to how devs deal with each others work. I feel like in this video prime really jumped around the idea of respect. It's not as complicated as he's making it. Instead of thinking in the sense of giving/getting respect, how about the idea of not giving/getting disrespect. I actually side with the asker in this case. Linus was just jumping around this blanket idea Instead of saying just straight up owning it. People get a little too comfortable behind a keyboard and monitor sometimes.
Linux would never be what it is without him being honest and ruthless. It was the same with apple. They had good products when jobs was I've. Now it's downhill, every day products are worse. Linus steps down and need to find other way to run our modern world.
@@adriankalyou can be honest and ruthless about code changes without telling the person who made it that they’re a failure of a person who should have been killed.
@@emmetallen5685 also, insulting people isn't "doing the world a favor", in reality people don't get humbled by being insulted, they get pissed and more egotistical, it's even worse if they feel like it's not fair, which lets be real it's what happens in almost every situation. torvalds is saying "if you're not deem of my respect i'm going to treat you like trash", which i hear often, but i wonder how torvalds reacts when it happens to him in real life, when he messes something up and gets mocked.
"In Open Source just find [other] people you like [to work with]". And that's the story of how we got 56 different projects that all try to do the same thing and do it all badly.
My default is that disrespect should be earned. By default, I treat everyone with respect and they have to do something to change that. I feel that the whole idea of "people need to earn my respect" is immature and a way to hide behind being a jerk.
There's two kinds of respect. Basic respect, which I give by default, and "true" respect which is earned. When I say I really respect someone it means I hold them in high regard. Another commenter used the word dignity for basic respect which I think is more apt. Treat everyone with dignity unless they refuse to do the same for you.
Usually when coders say such things which were brought up in the video for Linus saying to others, that happens when there is already enough history and problems with the coder who is being critizised. So it's not fair at all to condemn Linus for what he said without understanding the actual context where and when it happened.
@@krakulandia this, I think for him to get to that point he already noticed that the person who is standing in front of him has doubtful credentials. Or in other words plainly lied about their capabilities. You won't call that to a person who you already knew was inexperienced, you will just do it to someone who claimed was among the best or at least very good at something to then turn out to be mediocre, a "bluffer" you would say.
100% agree - but within the context of the video its fair to give a little criticism while remaining open to the possibility that a larger context may change that perspective
I think there is a cultural component missed here. It's about how humor is used in Scandinavia (and Finland), where you don't joke about real problems, but you joke about trends that might become a problem. That is to say, if I think a friend is really fat, I will not comment on his weight, but if a normally sized friend is gaining weight, I'll tell him he's one sandwich away from his own event horizon. That way he gets a chuckle from the absurdity and a small nudge. I think Linus is using humor in the same way. He expects the recipient to know that, of course, he does not wish him wiped from existence, but to still convey that a particular patch was a stupid idea. And yes, this use of humor with hyperbole is far from universal.
As a Norwegian I agree to an extent. Also having lived in Italy not for almost 8 years, in a culture that is far less direct than the Norwegian one, I certainly think the Scandinavian directness and sometimes dark humor is a part of it, however, there is being direct, and saying things as they are, and then there is pure bullying and just mean spiritedness. You can say someone isn't very good at their job, or suck at it even, but the whole retroactively aborted remark, that's just him being an asshole. So yeah, he is direct, but he is also a rude asshole that seems full of himself at times.
And it's not just scandinavia, it's central europe too (Germany, Switzerland etc.). This kind of humor is an european thing and it might not be obvious to foreigners.
The comedy you just described doesn't extend to saying colleagues are incompetent. You can diss your closest friend but a NORMAL Scandinavian wouldn't think of making an exaggerated joke to someone they just met who's submitting a PR.
@@mikinovak7019as a Swiss person hard disagree. Being direct to someone (not in a rude or insulting way) is a big nogo here. People here hate face to face confrontation a lot and they'd rather just shit talk you a ton as soon as you turn your back. Germany though (well depending on the region) can be very direct (example would be the Ruhrgebiet)
.. and look where that's gotten him. I don't get how a ponytail w-nker looks at the most successful open source project and has the balls to say "you built it wrong". I'm the same way as Linus (acquired partially from him, in fact) and it's not that we have no filters, it's that we can't be bothered with it. Filtering is not worth the effort and the reduced efficiency of communicating exactly what you mean.
@@paulie-gwhat is even the logic here? Do you believe Linus wants people to die (since he supposedly communicates exactly what he means)? Reduced efficiency.. as in, potentially losing people and creating a toxic environment because you can't be bothered to behave decently (or rather actively go out of your way to be abrasive)? Is that your idea of productivity and efficiency? And you pride yourself on adopting his arguably weakest character traits? Can you provide any evidence that suggests this actually helped in any way with where he is now?
@@SimonVaIe No, he communicated that he thought the interlocutor was a) being stupid and b) he was p-ssed. Doing so publicly also stimulates the sort of people who strive for peer validation in a social hierarchy (who also happen to be the majority in large open source projects, since there's no pay). The sort of people you would be 'losing' are not worth having as they don't fit the culture. You know full well that history has no subjunctive mood and running a decades-long test on something like this is untenable. But here's an example that's as close as you're going to get: BSD. It was already mature and popular when Linux first started and had a lot of cache and tradition. FreeBSD, the variant that strives for wide adoption, is nowhere near the size of Linux. It's difficult to control for the effects of their respective licenses, but if the assertion that Linus' work environment was so toxic it would drive away a lot of valuable contributors were true, we'd see them driving progress in FreeBSD. Surprise, we didn't and we don't. FreeBSD even has a CoC now and is actively recruiting the many kernel developers who identify as attack helicopters and demand an 'inclusive environment'. Strangely, they only seem to be interested in working on the CoC, not on the actual kernel.
8:26 in college a member of a semester project burst into lab and berated me about how he just spent the last 6 hours debugging my stupid code. It was a real eye opener that I still think about 4 years later. It was just enough public shame to make me realize I needed to be more thorough and be able to learn my tools so I would never be shamed like that again. He apologized later for the outburst and all was well, but it scared me to death in the moment.
I've been on the other side... its pretty triggering ngl, its good that he told you because it really takes some effort to actually go and tell someone this
I actually think this weird "respect must be given" culture causes outbursts like that. If you keep holding shit in out of societal pressure then when you finally do decide to cut your losses and speak your mind you're gonna have a lot more to say. It's a similar thing with most parts of life honestly. Just a few decades ago you taught your kids that it was better to have a broken nose and put an asshole in their place then let them go on unimpeeded, now you teach your kids to keep defaulting to authority. That's all well and good, until you actually need to deal with a *_real_* problem. When every second is life and death, police are mere minutes away. This is bad for the person refusing to take action or anyone who they might have taken action to help (for obvious reasons) but it's also bad for the person who would have action taken against too. (not in all cases obviously, but as a rule of thumb) There is a quote that has always stuck with me, "you can always tell whether or not someone has been punched in the jaw by how much shit comes out when they open it". Talking shit, and subsequently getting hit, doesn't just tell you "hey yeah I didn't appreciate that comment you made" it also tells you "not fun is it? Maybe don't talk shit and be a bit more civil next time". In other words, this obsession over civility has a cobra-effect of prompting people towards incivility since otherwise civil people will be pushed and pushed until their breaking point, and otherwise incivil people won't ever have their trajectory corrected and be given a stark reminder that "oh shit, yeah, I actually live in a society with like, other people, and consequences for my actions". This isn't just faux-psychology either, there are a few schools where the worst-of-the-worst kids go and they have no rules. And, despite having no rules and being filled with all of the worst students who have already been expelled time and time again, those kids get their fucking act together. Why? Simple, they actually were allowed to live with the consequences of their actions. Tehy did talk shit, they did get hit, and after enough times they realized getting hit fucking hurts. Again, to be clear, not all forms of violence or insults or whatever else is/are acceptable, two highschoolers getting in a fight isn't the same as a mafia member curbstomping someone's skull into the pavement, but it is to say that an obscession with civility can frequently lead to the opposite result. While insults, fights, etc. are distasteful and not the best solution, they are an intrinsic component of social interactions. When you take away tools from those otherwisde willing to be civil, you only give an advantage to those with no concerns as to their civility. World peace sounds good, until you realize North Korea, China, Russia, etc. exist. Dictators won't be voted out of power, so do you really want to stop all coups, wars, etc.? Well great in favour of your cushy fantasy now millions or even billions of people will be born and die under tyrannically oppresive regiemes where even the concept of a human right has never touched their malnourished brains. TLDR: Conflict is an intrinsic component of any large scale human interaction. It may be an ugly component that we'd like to ignore and demonize so we don't have to accept it, but the reality is it's part of human nature and the more you suppress it the more it will fester. There will always be unacceptable examples of it that should be treated with the condemnation they deserve, but if two drunk fucktards in a bar want to knock a few teeth out that's up to them, and hopefully they'll both learn dentist apointments are cheaper than hospital visits next time they notice a cavity.
I was kind of that guy. Someone sent in his part last minute and it barely hit outdated requirements. I spent the whole night rewriting all the stuff until it worked. He started a heated discussion afterward about why I removed some of his genius coding ideas. I don`t have a problem if someone isn`t perfect with his tools. We all learn every day. But you need to know and communicate when you have a problem and better deliver the first buggy work early so others can build on it. In my case, I could have told him weeks before that part of what he is spending a lot of time with is kind of neat but unnecessary.
What Linus is doing is how basically Finnish work culture dynamics work in general, but in somewhat exaggerated way. I've seen countless of times when people from USA were visiting Finland for work related things and were scared during meetings when Finnish people were so direct and "brutally honest" (as they said) when discussing topics with their superiors and peers. The USA people said that they would be fired on the spot if they interacted like that with their bosses or peers. It's normal in Finland to discuss the topic directly without sugarcoating it, so we get quickly to the real issues and get them fixed. And usually no-one gets offended in the process. It's just that people from other countries aren't used to such directness and not self censoring the discussions. In my experience that is exactly the reason why Finland is so good at cutting edge technology development.
The distinction between this two is not clear--this is an oxymoron in fact. Dignity implies respect, it's in most definitions of the word. What would approaching someone with dignity lack as compared to approaching someone with respect? Semantically not clear.
@@plsreleasethekraken actually... both are respect; But the target of them is different: one is the person, the other is their skills. You can say someone is bad at programming... or coded something badly... without saying they should be retroactively aborted.
@@plsreleasethekraken The constitution of the current German state starts with the line: Human dignity is untouchable. Nowadays, the definition of respect is a bit blurry, but I like the distinction made here. Treating someone with dignity means acknowledging their worth, not as an individual but as a human being. Sticking to a certain baseline that you simply don't violate. Treating someone with respect means treating them better than necessary, because you believe in their particular worth as an individual.
@@plsreleasethekraken imo it's different between respect and dignity, respect is privilege, dignity is right. that's why you can respect someone's dignity since it's not the same thing. the confusion is there when disrespecting someone is viewed as violating a person's dignity. this is usually happen in the scene of royalty back then, and enforcing respect is the sign of tyrant. when in reality it depends on the ego of the person getting the disrespect. is your self-worth that small/ fragile that the words from people reduce it? also getting their dignity violated will make people reduce their respect to them anymore. that holds true for like virginity and wealth. for example you got robbed and your house burnt down, now you are a homeless, you won't be as respected. the two correlate but not always in line due to circumstances.
Linus is a bully. He blocks anyone who gives him this kind of meanness in return. He can't take what he himself dishes out. He's weak, he's stupid, and he can't find teat. No respect for the Linusman
linus wasn't backpedaling...he was doubling down. by saying that 'some people would recognize that as hyperbole' he's saying the question is also stupid. hyperbole isn't "joking", it's just hyperbole.
In this context, credibility is earned Be assertive and polite As in the Ten Commandments of egoless programming: Critique code instead of people - be kind to the coder, not to the code.
If you live long enough and work on code all day, things can get personal. You can be machine-like and only judge code but I wouldn't do it and neither would Linus apparently. Also, if Linus saw my code, he'd think I should have been aborted as well and from the code perspective, he is probably right.
If the coder is the root cause of bad code and doesn't listen to criticism of the code, what else you have left other than just banishing that person from working with you?
a lot of people are pointing out that they'd rather have honest feedback than have low quality feedback which does not teach them anything. I agree with this. However: "Yeah I think you could write the code better" "That is some dumb code change it" "You should work on some other part of the project, I don't think you're a good fit for working on this specific part" is quite far from "I'm surprised you're capable of breathing without thinking about it. I didn't think your brain would be able to handle that" and while I'll admit that's kinda funny (and yeah, sorry not as funny as the one Linus came up with) it's not really constructive criticism. Now am I demanding people take time out of their day to be very constructive about every wittle thing I did wrong? No of course not. But one should also realize that not everyone appreciates their creative insults, especially if they're not close. Do I wish I could've told certain coworkers "your 'solution' is so bad, error prone, and easily breakable in a refactor it made me wanna jump off a bridge because then I'd be free from working in the same industry as you"? I'd be lying if I said I didn't. But I don't think that would've helped anyone.
they try to normalise throwing out frustration and sick overuse of hierarchy structures, it's a sick type of competition I'm against tolerating weakness, and using weakness to own adventage what is opposite to this civilization was placed between fascism and communism not preserved by taking less evil side 😂 such wording has always a goal, a psychological attack is used to win something in Japan you can't fire somebody from job so you move him to worse jobs and do everything so that he would resign himself not sure how competition works in USA but I see this country as a place of strong competition expecting you do give 100% everyday despite it being one of most physically unhealthy and drugged nations in the world so this guarantees incapability of many people to give 100% daily and small group feeling like Gods because of being in better position judging everyone with own standards thinking well I could so they could too that's why wokeness was born there as for many the barrier to cross to normalcy is enormous IT is seen as Olympus and it has it's sideeffects
@@szymonbaranowski8184 "despite it being one of most physically unhealthy and drugged nations in the world" indeed, along with China, and North Korea, and Iran, and the UK, and Ireland, and France, and most of Subsaharan Africa, and Afghanistan, and India, and frankly Japan (if you include mental heath). There is something about the USA's free flow of information that makes the bad as visible as the good, in the other countries I mentioned national face is strongly protected by restricted access to statistical data and low to no media coverage of culturally embarrassing events and trends. Moreover wokeness is just a new flavor of the same thing that was inside the soviet union, the ccp and the axis powers. The core of it wasn't born in the USA. It is a phase of a sweeping totalitarian paradigm. In America this phase is stretched out for a much longer period of time because individual freedom exists and sovereign states, counties and districts isolate the legal infection to mostly collectivist areas like large cities and high population states. Top down power which usually makes this infection rapid is actually quite difficult to obtain in the USA due to the intentional decentralized design described by the Constitution and authoritarian limits set in the Bill of Rights. I think you are mostly correct though.
You're missing the context. Linus doesn't do this in response to one bad patch. He's only ever done it in my time on LKML in response to an act of monumental stupidity (by kernel engineering standards) followed by refusal to acknowledge it.
@@paulie-g fair enough. I did not know that. Linux is his baby and if someone does something really stupid to it and then refuses to acknowledge what they did is stupid, I understand why he said what he said lol. Thanks for context :)
@@shakibrahman Exactly. If you take responsibility, it doesn't happen. If you fix your sh-t, it doesn't happen. If you understand you were wrong, it doesn't happen. It could happen because of a bad patch, but only if it's the last one of many f-ckups. It's a kernel. It's the kernel that runs the world. If it crashes, bad sh-t happens. People are expected to take their work on it seriously and bring competence. If you can't, you need to find a project that's more appropriate for your level. Not every coder can work on the Linux kernel. Not every kid who loved Lego can grow up to be a rocket engineer. The world isn't fair, I'm not pretty enough to be a model (not now anyway), someone else isn't good enough to work on hard/critical code.
That wasn't a childish insult. That was an EPIC insult. If I was on the receiving end of that one I'd think Damn I f*cked that one up and have a good laugh. But I'm one of those people that is immune to virtually any insult.
Agreed. Telling someone they should kill themselves because you think their code is bad is just 2 or 3 steps too far. I agree with Prime in that respect should be earned. But that doesn't mean you have a free pass to be disrepectful to other people. There should be a neutral level of respect for other people where you can give criticism without resorting to telling people to kill themselves or insult their intelligence If someone disrespects you, then sure. Insult them back. I doubt many people would disagree with that
@@ChrisP872 it is just childish. It basically paints the person as one lacking control or posture, like some deranged old man that is slowly losing their mind and can't help but piss themselves during a lecture.
@@BanAaronHmm, when did Linus say to someone to kill themselves? That's way too far Although I think insulting someone's intelligence in the most excessive way possible is fine, as it is often taken lighter, because you can't honestly believe that you are that stupid, but you did fuck up. All in all it depends on the tone as well, repeating words someone has said is meaningless to me without context.
I think of giving someone you're newly aquinted with the benefit of the doubt is a kind of respect. You're respecting their human dignity. From there, they can either lose that respect, or solidify it. Edit: continued watching, and this was said almost exactly.
11:40 But what do you understand by "respect"? I think the default state is - be kind and respectful towards people you don't know. And I think that constitutes a "respect". Then someone can : - gain your... I don't know, admiration? Extra respect? Not sure how to phrase it. - or on the other hand someone can loose your respect. But the default state is having a respect towards someone. Just as you said - you assume they are capable and you are treating them as such. You are respecting them until proven wrong.
Maybe the issue is with English language, because "being respectful" towards someone does not mean exactly the same thing as "having a respect". In my simple mind both of this things should have the same meaning, but I guess in reality it is something different.
Sorry that I have to say this openly. The world would be a lot better place if people said "sorry", "please", "kindly", and "thank you" more. 0:29 No bro. It simply shows that the person who is speaking has a functioning introspection.
Yeah. It is just a display of humility. It is not self-flagellation to admit one’s shortcomings and apologize in advance for how that might diminish the depth of interaction.
The discussion is about this: should people be hesitant at all? Like, one should not have such low self-esteem so that a joke would make him hesitant whatsoever. These people should learn how to relax socially, and learn how to feel intimacy with others on a level you can make fun without this unreasonable fear, you know? It looks like we are accepting this psychological illness as the normal, which is actually counter productive if we want a synergic team working together, where we need more intimacy so we can feel free to criticize and make fun, there's no need for fear, this is not like a war, it's just work, it's a safe place, you're not going to be hurt or killed
@@_Akhilleus_ But everyone's line is different. The markers your mind uses to characterize someone as confident could be the very same markers another might use to judge them arrogant. Because we are each just the accumulation of our previous social interactions which make us sensitive and blind to different things. So rather than coming up with an arbitrary standard, it's better to take people as they are which is much harder to do. Linus's behaviour is really just laziness. Different people respond to different things and learning who responds to what is much more difficult than just projecting your own views onto the world and expect others to abide.
@@_Akhilleus_ I believe everyone should exercise the stoic way of living. I see a lot of people being too sensitive about simple things. One should endure these displeasurable Linus' statements, but this fact doesn't matter for the matter of whether these insults should exist or not. I would endure them, but with displeasure; I "feel" way more than the majority of people, and I'm sure I'll be like that till my death, but I know what should be done even if I feel beaten in the head, I won't go "eye for an eye" (there's not point into following a thoughtless thought), I won't attack back; I'll try to manage the best course of action that should be taken, I'll feel the utter urge to disrespect whoever disrespected me, but I won't disrespect back. The most curious thing about Linux I've seen is the fact that the Linux kernel development started to adopt the conduct of not using the words "Master", "Slave" and "Black-list", "White-list"; I see a reason to disapprove an offense that was created for the purpose of inflicting damage, but not words that can be associated with something "offensive" and aren't themselves an offense.
@@unknown-qp8pk I see most people making confusion about what is an insult from what is unacceptable behavior. What Linus does is far from unacceptable behavior. It's like what Chris Rock does, and people tend to react like Will Smith. And this ends up trivializing real unacceptable behaviors like racism and prejudice for example, which is way different than joking around
The problem with the question of implicit respect is that everyone operates on different definitions of respect, as far as I've seen. I know of two definitions, the first: "a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements." The second: "due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others." I think the first OBVIOUSLY shouldn't be given implicitly. But the second is tougher. I think disregarding someones rights is criminal, and disregarding peoples feelings/wishes/traditions off the bat for no reason is not something I agree with. I think the second type of respect should be given immediately, but can be taken away just as quickly (except due regard for rights, of course). The first is earned, the second can be broken. I feel like your definition of respect is exclusively the first EDIT: I see you get into this at the end. I would say the second definition of respect IS the same as being courteous. The definitions of Courteous is: "Polite, RESPECTFUL, or considerate in matter"
"I think disregarding someones rights is criminal, and disregarding peoples feelings/wishes/traditions off the bat for no reason is not something I agree with." - I get that you may not agree with it but its an opt-in situation. I reserve the right to disregard anything I wish in my life's journey. I will choose what I interact with and regard at any moment. And, yes; it is criminal to remove someones rights. The law grants rights for people based on where you live.
Sorry guys, didn't want to interrupt, so I waited a couple of months to make sure I'm not gonna interrupt the flow of conversation. If I did - I'm sorry. But have you seen deez nuts 🥜🌰 lately? UPD: Ok, no worries, I've found them, sorry again for an intrusion.
There's a difference between "politically correct" and "good manners and a dash of empathy". No one is asking Linus to pretend men are women or whatever, but don't be a dick just because you can get away with it.
Arguing for telling someone they should be retroactively aborted because that's "honesty" or people are "too sensitive" isn't very mature, productive or professional. Why think it's okay to make people feel like shit? There's a difference between earned respect and just being respectful as a fellow human being. People used to know this.
Is not political correctness in this case. Just standard civic norms. It is unjustified and if you don't have patience to dealing with people when they don't understand or do something wrong, you are not fit to be a leader. People are not robots, feelings are not more important than facts, BUT, they are still important. This behavior has an unnecessary negative impact in the community. I stand with this guy on this one.
Totally agree about respect being earned.....but there's a big difference between not respecting someone and being cruel. Cruelty is just not necessary to get a point across and in my opinion is not deserving of respect itself
There will be extremely talented and brilliant engineers that will look at Linus and the stigma of his behavior and correctly say, "Hard Pass" and go and put their skills and knowledge to use in other areas supporting other platforms or companies and Linux will be less for it. That is ultimately the consequence of his behavior.
Sorry to disagree but you can absolutely pre-emptively apologize for something and still do it. For instance, say someone's leg or armed is pinned under something and you know that if they're going to survive you need to cut it off. You don't WANT to cut off their limb, you wouldn't in any other situaiton, and you're definitely not going to like doing it, but you need to. Sorry just expresses guilt or remorse, and there are plenty of actions which you could have either or both of those for and still do them again. I'm honestly not sure where he got this weird "I promise I'll never do X again" thing from it. Does Prime think that when someone says "I'm sorry for your loss" they're saying "I killed your mother, it was me Barry! ... ... but I won't do it again."? Like genuinely I'm not sure where he got this impression of sorry from. Even it's root is just "sorrow", the broad concept of sad/bad thing.
The word you're looking for is courtesy, as in common courtesy. A lot of people don't understand what respect is and say respect when they mean courtesy. Courtesy is being polite to strangers as a common default practice. Respect is holding someone in higher esteem for their achievments. It's a distinction that causes a lot of talking past each other.
No, respect has multiple definitions, one of which is similar to common courtesy (Google/Oxford defines it as "have due regard for"). The problem is that people hear respect and think of the definition you're talking of, and try to argue as if that's it's only meaning. But saying courtesy is definitely less confusing.
@@oldsoul3539 Sorry, I should have kept the entire quote: ``` have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights). "I respected his views" Similar: show consideration for show regard for take into consideration ``` It's not inherently tied to work, even if the context it's used to when talking about contributions is work.
@@ITR I meant "work" in the vaguest "you did something" sense, you don't get respect for doing nothing. Note in the examples there's an element of judgement or weighing value involved, you are deciding to respect their beliefs based on the merit of the beliefs even if you don't agree with them. Courtesy has no judgement involved, it's just having good manners.
9:49 So, what I'm seeing here, is that the people have done things worthy of the disrespect in Linus's opinion. That can't be overlooked. I think Linus is totally in the right here. But if they've done nothing, well then obviously they don't need the disrespect, and I don't think anyone is accusing Linus of going around disrespecting people undeservedly.
Respect is earned, decency should always be given! (not disagreeing with most of his stuff being yourself and honest to yourself enables the best of your and finding people that understand u and your weirdness is always the way)
8:32 my issue with this perception is it seems like simplifying into mocking extremes. It sounds to me like "OK, to be rude, because the only other option is to be super nice is calming and not saying hard things". I strongly disagree, we still can tell hard things to each other and at the same time not be rude nor insensitive.
8:46 There is a difference between "Your code sucks and you need to fix this" and "You should be retroactively aborted". A world of difference in fact.
It may be that people do or don't deserve respect, but the question is always, why should you be the one who can judge that? I find there's almost never good arguments for this. Also there's a difference between disresprect and respect. I'd appreciate if Linus just told the other person: "I'm fucking pissed off at you I don't want to work with you". That's honesty, but there isn't an insult in this. It is totally possible and valid to be angry without being hateful.
it's hilarious when people with poor social skills calls poor communication "honesty". No, it's just you suck at communication. Steve jobs made this popular. Most of this is comes from lack of self awareness and lashing out at others when something triggers negative emotions. It's all subconscious. So much of this is deep seeded insecurities. Even though Torvald doesn't need to prove anything, his subconscious still clings to it and lashes out when it gets triggered. Saying you don't care is just a defense mechanism to mask one's own insecurities. there's a conflation between respect and compassion. Respect means I hold a person's opinion in higher regard. Compassion means before I open my mouth, I take a few seconds to consider someone feelings first. They aren't mutually exclusive
you noted another definition of respect under different name and yes these two are contradictory and that's from where whole confusion comes from probably we always had opposite cultures competing most of time meeting in half but it's a great observation problem is most people hold only one definition more dear to them this discussion is exactly about making order in meanings and right proportions to things PS We became civilised by learning to keep feelings away from judgements expecting respecting feelings is as bad as using psychological attack directed at feelings
So people with poor social skills just shouldn’t be allowed to communicate? That doesn’t seem very practical. I would argue that it’s up to people with good social skills to do a better job at finding the intention/meaning of what was said rather than being distracted by how it was said. Part of good social skills is dealing well with people that have poor social skills. Genuine social conflict should really only happen when both parties have poor social skills.
he is as bad as that guy from Microsoft with talk how getting autist working his ass off unknowing how exploited he is is a perfect employee they look for 😂 it's this level of sociopathy except Linus do not hire anyone so it's voluntary while in corporation it's like officer in prison....
If you Google the definition for respect, you get two very distinct definitions, one in regards to politeness and another towards admiration. I think the core of the argument is that these two get confused quite easily lol The guy should have said "be considered and polite" just to be considered and polite towards those using the other definition.
polite can mean different things depending on culture as well in one culture it means to show good manners, basic civility in other it means obeying all written or unwritten customs and laws under threat of punishment, exclusion without exceptions admiration and envy are two sides of one coin depending on persons perception of the same thing constructive or destructive good will or bad will similar with respect for one person is something granted basic standard anyone has for other it's something elevating, sign of being higher expected, possessed, prohibited from taking away acknowledged in comparison, stating objective difference, dividing standard or achievement first perspective is against differentiating because it lowers value of standard in comparison, is offence to all lowered by claiming hierarchy so guess I guess another definition exists and it's contradictory
I had two tech leads when I first started in code, one was super nice and respectful.He took the time to explain and made sure everything was being made correctly. The other one was an abrasive dick who liked to make you feel like shit for a simple mistake. Both were good coders, but I consider the nice one as the best teacher I had and I still think about the things he taught me. The mean guy left the company short after and I was so relieved.
it's easy to wave the moral flag when you're not in the guy's shoes. linus is maintaining a piece of software that literally runs the internet. he can't afford lollygagging and stupidity
@psyjax2 you could call the way he was irritated about it professionalism. That's how much he cares about this stuff. Yet, yes, he probably shouldn't be so mean.
@@szymonbaranowski8184 Funny. Bavarians are said to have an anarchist streak. There once was the Bavarian Soviet Republic, you know? Only for a month, until it was demolished by fascists and social democrats, no less. But still, Bavarians don't like authority very much. Unless it's our dead king Ludwig II. Probably because he left us pretty much alone and was more concerned with building castles and listening to opera than with ruling.
@@pillmuncher67 Do Bavarians still speak in their own language or you get assimilated in German? I've heard your accent is completely different! Sorry I'm not European but once I saw a lot of negative comments from other Germans about your accent. Are they aggressive towards you?
@@sarfaraz73 No, aggressive is not a word I would use. Maybe bewildered is a better description. The Bavarian dialect is still spoken, in the rural areas more than in the cities. It's, in fact, not just one dialect, but a group of closely related and easily mutually understandable dialects, Im from south western Upper Bavaria, close to where the Bavarian Swabians live, and it shows in some of the words I use and how I pronounce certain things, In eastern or lower Bavaria people speak slightly but recognizably different. The Swabians dialect comes from the Alemanni, Germans who had their ancestral home at the mouth of the river Elbe (they're called Elbgermans) and who settled along the river Rhine. The Bavarians, OTOH, are a German tribe that emerged in the wider area of what today is Southern Bavaria, Austria and South Tyrol. Where the ancestors of the Bavarians came from is not clear, they may also be descendants of the Elbgermans, some East Germanic tribes, maybe the Boii from Bohemia , local Celtic tribes and Roman settlers, all mixed together. Both Bohemia and Bavaria have their name from the Boii. The original name of the Bavarians was Bajuvari, the men from Boio, today Bohemia in Czechia. "vari" is an old Germanic word that we still use in words like "werewolf", the wolf man. Also the Latin "vir", man, is a cognate. There are some remnants of Latin in the Bavarian dialect, but that may well be because Bavaria has always been deeply Catholic and Latin was an still is the language of the Roman Church. We have a lot of diphthongs that were lost in other Germanic dialects, and we also have a lot of words that other Germans don't recognize. What you have to understand is that it's not like the dialects are local aberrations from the German language, but that the High German language was created from a set of different dialects that already existed. High German, BTW, gets its name from the high places where it was spoken, in the center and south of Germany, as opposed to Lower German that was spoken in the low planes of the north, so it's a geographical marker and doesn't imply some social stratification. Through time, and through the more standardized written language (Thanks, Luther), the dialects became more similar to each other. But the Bavarians, obstinate as they are, still insist on keeping their dialect alive, other Germans be damned. Langfocus made a video on RUclips where he compared standard German and Bavarian. Look it up, it's not very long,
I agree that respect should be earned, but that does not mean you are a jackass to literally everyone else. It is just basic decency that if someone new to the project asks you a basic question you don't go out of your way to insult them.
when the one in the audience talked about respect, they were imprecise, but everyone knew what was being talked about, linus, consciously or not, moved the goalpost and instead of taking seriously about his verbal abuse, he reframed the conversation to focus on the kind of reverence/admiration that is also associated with the word respect if he treats politely and with human decency only people he reveres, there’s still no justification for being such an asshole to other people judge the actions, not the person, criticize the code, not the coder
Pretty much spot on. From what I read of his stuff, it isn't about earned respect, or not tolerating the ignorant, it was about how he acts so abusive it comes off as unprofessional and/or immature. It's almost like that petty coworker who calls you out over simple errors and acts like you nearly deleted the entire database. I genuinely believe he has developed a bit of narcissism due to his founding of Linux and Git, to the point he believes he can very harshly insult people for the sake of it.
Benefit of the doubt doesn't even mean that you must assume the person is capable. The rule is actually less strict: It means that until you are perfectly sure they're incapable(and the burden for proving this to yourself is on you) you should never assume they're not capable - so they may still be capable. So you could think: "This person still can be capable, although I'm tempted to judge quickly". This contrast between what's possible, and what we automatically expect really shows the value of the high standard of the benefit of the doubt. It is analogous to positive thinking, which can be criticized when done excessively, but contains the truth that you limit your perception of positive things if you're not open to their possibility.
I don't think respect is earned, I think trust is earned. I think the view that someone needs to earn your respect is a cheap excuse to be rude, selfish, or lazy. If you have a new intern, you should totally treat that person with respect for their humanity, their prior work experience, etc. But no, you shouldn't entrust them with the same information or responsibility as a senior engineer. Your respect for a person can certainly grow over time, but I don't think it should start at zero.
I agree everyone has a slightly different definition of respect, but mine is coming from the fact that I think most people would say that Linus was 'disrespectful' to the guy who he said should be dead.
there are two kinds of respect: - seeing somebody as a human person - thinking of somebody as being competent (this one is also required to be in a position of authority)
Respect - a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. So you first have to develop your abilities and achieve something - aka - earn.
And you simply don’t have any idea of what the word you use means. I’m currently not rude to you because I don’t respect you, I don’t but that’s not the reason why I’m speaking like that, but because you already showed you’re not worse anyone’s time. He addressed that point in the video, and you just have to look up the definition to understand where you’re wrong.
The scenario opened here is just wrong. Like bro, some people code worse than others, does it mean you gotta tell them they arent worth shit and hang themselfs for the shit they wrote or can you just tell them their code isnt good and you expect better even at their skilllevel. Everyone here is like "Respect should be earned" yeah real respect based on accoplishment should be earned nobody expects you to bow down to a junior, just dont be a shithead for your own amusement
I had a very hard time figuring out what respect meant growing up, because whenever I got in trouble my father would scold me for not respecting him or tools or the house, or whatever, and it seemed like a pretty blanket term for just not doing what he wanted. That being said I did eventually come to the conclusion that respect is a combination of polite, courteous, and attentive - also "right-action" but thats a whole thing in itself which changes its definition depending on your surroundings. Respecting authority for example, would be being polite, loyal, courteous, and attentive to the authority figure. You give them no offense, are attentive to their demands, and are courteous to their needs. respect can be very complicated.
> it seemed like a pretty blanket term for just not doing what he wanted That's how bullies and abusive individuals use respect. Linus says he comes from a troublesome family and I think that's perfectly reflected in his unhealthy stance on respect. He thinks it means submission, admiration and condescension. Anyone emotionally healthy can see that respect is not about political correctness, softness or going woke. Is baseline human decency. Be polite, see the human first, acknowledge no one is perfect, we can all make mistakes, and we all deserve dignity. For healthy people cruelty is unnecessary. For some emotionally traumatized or neglected people, cruelty is mandatory, to receive it or dish it to others, and they don't feel comfortable unless cruelty is present in all their social interactions. They're hurt and you can tell.
@@Leo0718 There is respect as in basic human decency (treating people with respect) but there's also respect as in valuing or thinking highly of someone or their actions or opinions. I think the first one you should just do by default when interacting with people you haven't met before. It's just being polite. The second one needs to be earned. And the fact that the same word is used for both is just really annoying.
Respect and mind-reading are not synonymous nor interchangeable. FK anyone who goes off because of being "disrespected", FK em and their fantastical delusions.
Respect has two meanings: #1. Treat someone politely as a human, #2. Submitting to someone as an authority. Your father and Linus use the second meaning. If you look the word up in any dictionary, you'll find they've separated the two meanings. So it's not complicated at all.
I don't really like the term respect for the same reason. I found myself in similar scenarios and they could never actually explain what respect is it just seems like an arbitrary list of rules that are made up on the spot so I don't "respect" the concept of respect. manners is in the same boat
You don't have to be respectful, just civil. The formal term is civil discourse. You can look it up. It can be argumentative, but it'll remain civil. It can include debate, but it has to be factual. It won't involve ad hominem attacks - this being something that Linus in the given example did fail. etc.
You misunderstand civility, it is not verbal politeness which is reserved for those for whom you hold intimate affection, it is the limitation of conflict to verbal harassment in place of true violence which is the natural course of correction. When social bullying is not employed a return to that natural order of violence is inevitable, for the simple reason that you have explicitly removed the only negative disincentive for bad behavior in a 'civil' aka non violent society. Common fault of modern aka retarded man, too divorced from the cultural context of society to understand how any of it fucking works and thus has no fucking clue why it doesn't fucking work.
There is literally no reason to tell someone to go kill themselves in a PR. I get that negative feedback is an aspect of development. I don't see a justification for this behavior. EDIT: fixed some Grammer and typos.
@@ChrisP872 what joke are you referring to? Linus back peddled on his "joke" so it wasn't really a joke after all. It's a PR. Why waste your time writing that extra comment. If Linus wants to keep it focused on the technology, then keep it about technology. This isn't even a PC thing. It's just a waste of time. Also, such a cowardly way out, "bro it's just a joke man. Can't you handle a prank." Same energy as those unfunny RUclips prank videos.
Attack the idea not the person. It's nothing to do with "respect must be earned" - that is a red herring to hide from the fact this was unacceptable behavior. I'd never work with someone who reduces themselves to a temper tantrum toddler whenever they encounter things they don't like. Simply close the PR. No comment even necessary. If a comment is necessary then explain why it is a bad idea or don't say anything.
I lean towards constructive language. Sometimes the most constructive language is the most shocking, and it kinda hurts. That might be why there are times when rude language is warranted, and isn't mutually exclusive to respect. However the vast majority of the time it seems that things are better communicated and understood through kind language. People get defensive and stop listening if they're constantly being bashed.
This is not technical at all but is crucial to its longer-term survival, that of Open-source & arguably it’s most illustrious proponent Linus. If I were him, I would lay off that damn piece of bottle that seems to follow him everywhere like a shadow: that bottle full of kilos of pure white refined sugar.
I think theres a difference between insulting a human and saying "ok this code is shit". Respect should be earned sure, but treating someone how you would want to be treated should be the norm.
You can never get people to work better or do better if you berate them. Sure, you are running a business, you need people who can do the job independently, but if they can't don't berate them. First off, you hired them, so think why you did that. Second, even the most clueless people (like myself), can grow in a short time to become competent and even brilliant developers. You have to help people grow, teach them, let them have the time to grow into the role, not break what little confidence they have in their skills and desire in working in that project. A good leader inspires passion in people, so that even if they are not paid, they would fight tooth and nail to do sth great for the project.
There is a middle ground between respect and contempt; you don't need to respect people unless they deserve it, agreed! but, you don't need treat people with contempt either. you can choose to ignore people who don't match with your level of intelligence or choose not to associate with them. disrespecting people for no reason is nothing but arrogance.
6:57 That could also be seen as gaslighting / invalidation. I dont think he is paddling back, it is more like "I am not sorry for my deeds, but your _perception_ of them". You know, he did nothing wrong - you just interpreted it wrong... Sure.
What if they're too self-important, and you need to knock them off of their high-horse? If you were building a software that literally operates on people, and then some idiot was repeatedly trying to make some changes to said software that you know would actually kill people, wouldn't you be angry? Linux is like that, in a metaphorical sense. Many things depend on it. When you're building something that important, you can't afford to care about anyone's feefees.
@@longlostwraith5106 You can just withhold power from someone that isn't ready. You can do that without doing maximum damage to their self esteem. And you cannot stop an idiot from forking the kernel anyway, and yet the world keeps spinning ;)
For me giving people respect is the number one way to move up through the world. Respect doesn't need to be earned but should be able to be lost very quickly.
There is respect and there is respect. The basic respect, i.e. the basic concession of dignity, is usually not something you have to earn. But then there is this "TOTAL respect" that some people confuse with the first thing, i.e. demanding that every crap that their "technically less skilled mind" (to say the least) comes up with has to be accepted as the greatest gift to the world. THAT last thing is what Linus refuses to offer. And he is right.
There are multiple facets of respect. You can respect someone's inexperience, or weaknesses, or situations or problems as a fellow human, without respecting the quality of their work. Linus is just incapable of separating those two things. His work defines his value as a human in his mind, and therefore anyone with subpar quality of work is an overall subpar human. As soon as you separate out respect into proper categories, you can build much healthier relationships with other humans.
He is not incapable. When he made the insult he was work linus, programmer linus. Working with other programmers. I agree with you though, a role is not the same as being a human. We can all play the pawn and king. Also culture's are different
Best bosses and coworkers I've ever had were like Linus. I think I'm also like Linus. Heres the best thing - the opening insult was fucking hilarious and if someone said that to me in a PR review I'd laugh my ass off and use it on my friends.
The intent and overall relationship with the said person matters. Also, it matters if you're willing to take insults and burns, not only give them. A boss who "roasts" people all the time and then gets mad and starts foaming whenever someone claps back is just an a**hole with a superiority complex.
There would be no problem is saying "your PR is bad", "you idea is terrible", "this code sucks". But I'm not sure in how mentioning retroactive abortion and not being able to find a tit would help in the linux development. If he's so stressed about it, he could do boxing or knitting to calm down, there's no need to throw his anger at others
@@itellyouforfree7238 not an excuse, It happened to me as tech lead to have to explain stuff to poeple that really do not understand what they are doing. but i stay courtois; Always.
I love how people sugarcoat stuff, Linus Torvalds Insults people because he is rude, period. I like his persona, I admire his achievements. but that doesn't mean I will look away from the cold hard truth he has no people skills and that's not something you should copy or admire...
Let's be honest he got annoyed and decided to offend the person, that's it. He could be brutally honest just saying: bro you're incompetent, go find another project to work in. That would be acceptable. Anyhow just one more Rhino in tech.
You're right. Saying "you're incompetent" would've been acceptable. (In private. Not something you normally do in text in public as a boss.) But to offend someone because they're not as good as you at programming is fucking low. Especially when done in public.
This "Rhino in tech" has done more and will continue to do more for the world's technology than you and a billion other soydevs will in your entire lifetime combined.
You need to take into account that the guy has been working in C for >40 years, where the compiler constantly tells you that you are a dumb to your face. He is desensitized.
Gosh, I kinda cringe at the way Linus is trying to justify himself in front of this audience. I find his arguments really sloppy. He should just say "I'm abrasive I know, and I can't be bothered" that's enough, but all the sugarcoat with "respect should be earned", "open source is a place when you can find people you like !" is cringey to me But anyways, who cares, there's even no context about to whom and where this was said
It was a pull request for code on the Linux kernel. He posted this answer as his code review, in a public place where everyone could read it. Real mature software developer right there. Mind you, this is not the first, the only nor even the worse thing that Linus has written about other fellow software developers. He is a very angry and sensitive man.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. If a police officer has to arrest someone who killed another person in order to defend an innocent person, they can say they are sorry they have to arrest them but they still have to do it because its the law.
I think we are talking about two different types of respect here. The first is basic human respect, which should be given to everyone initially, but can be deminished and the second is personal respect, which is always earned by the person.
5:15 , yeah you have all the power to choose who you want to work with. But you don't need to insult people just because you don't want to work with them. Criticize their code, or ignore them. Both options are better than choosing to spend your time writing a response that is 100% anti-productive.
13:00 Your PR is garbage, it's very different from saying that whoever wrote that code is. In that I think Linus is wrong, when he criticizes the person and not the technology or the code.
There is a basic "human respect" that should be given to everyone automatically (unless they do something which disqualifies them from it). By personally insulting people Linas is not giving them that "human respect". Linas is deliberately conflating "technical respect" with "human respect" because he's just a bit of an asshole and in a position where he doesn't have to change himself - that doesn't make him right, just powerful.
In the end, it was a good move from the guy, saying sorry beforehand, because it was connected to the discussing afterward. So he chooses a different way, to bring up and talk about controversial topics ...not being too offensive, but bringing them up, reflecting them, making a standpoint. It was a dialogue in the end somehow.
@@valmirius Depends on the corner of the internet. I know there's certain websites and forums where gratuitous insults are the norm, but open source software development? The fact that it is so public and that there is no way to indicate the exact tone over text make it worse than if it were said in person, at least to me. More likely to be taken as not a joke.
@@valmirius Corporate professionalism? My boss considers me sorely lacking in that respect, and everyone who knows me is not surprised by that fact. I like the idea of communicating directly and saying harsh truths when necessary, and I practice what I preach. I like crude humor too. It's just that in this concrete case, we're discussing sending death wishes over text on public channels. Trying to pass off such behavior as a joke, or necessary truth, or the people who don't like it as politically correct or corporate just isn't going to fly. There is room to not be politically correct or corporate, without being meanspirited and cruel. And I refuse to let meanspirited dickheads like Linus Torvalds hijack the notions of direct communication and dark humor as cover to be a nasty jerk to people.
I don't believe respect should be earned. I think respect should be fundamental to interaction until a point is reached where that respect should be withdrawn.
I can be sorry for something i willingly do. If me doing it is more important than making you feel good, i will do it, i will just feel bad about it. So apologizing for asking something you believe will inconvenience the other party is perfectly valid. It just means that you need the answer more than not hurting his feelings.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
My favorite Linus quote: „A computer is like air conditioning - it becomes useless when you open Windows“
💯
Related Stallman quote: "Computers need to be defenestrated, which means either throw Windows out of the computer, or throw the computer out the window."
Cap
Pathetic take, the bios is more than sufficient.
German quotes
When Linus says he was joking, he doesn't mean he didn't believe what he was saying. He absolutely did. He just means he tried to phrase his thoughts in the funniest way he could think of.
Right. He really thought the persons code submission was stupid. The EPIC insult was the funny hyperbole. It's like back in the 80s how people (mostly young ones obviously) would have insult competitions with each other to see who could be the most savage.
@@ChrisP872 There is no specific period for that kind of behaviour. It still happens today and am certain it begun when man became "civilized"!
@@ChrisP872 Rule of thumb: before competing make sure your opponent is aware of the cage match unfolding around them.
Being 'civilised' has it's price.
When everyone is expected to act politely you inevitably develop paranoia.
A person acting weirdly towards you, because they hate you and would gladly drown you in a nearest puddle, given a chance, or are they just absentminded worrying about something personal? You'll never be sure.
@@AntiCookieMonster This 100%. I have a friend who expressed this sentiment very well. He's incredibly rude with close coworkers all the time. But that rudeness acts like a barrier against serious harm-intended insults because they must reach a very personal level and the tone must be precise to actually harm. So the conversations are more relaxed even if they're often appearing more negative.
I'm not that rude with my coworkers but I had the exact opposite kind of person where they take everything very seriously and trigger on the slightest things. And it's a massive pain to not be sure how to phrase yourself without hurting someone. As an example I got complained at for not inviting him to speak on something in a meeting "I knew" he would have something to say about. He could have raised his hand, and of corse I knew he has strong opinions but I didn't know that the expectation was on me to make him talk. Frankly it's childlike but I can't pick who I work with.
Edit: To be clear: I'm stepping on eggshells around him and he's not often offended because of that. But this is just a clear example of how I know it's necessary to be stepping on eggshells around him and it's a burden.
Functional families are always preferred over families that treat people like objects.
functional families accumulate neither fame nor wealth because they lack inheritance.
underrated comment
ayy lmao
Family that treats you like objects are always after your inheritance. They lack class
So monads?
I will say, when Linus said "he was being honest", he wasn't backpedaling, it's just how it is.
In Finland, unless you're in a formal setting, if you do a shit job, be prepared for your job to be cursed at.
Linus is a guy who expects a trade of insults.
I'm not his dad to provide them.
This is an old interview, in the mean time he has changed his mind about this kind of behavior and tries to not react like this anymore.
@@frydacI mean it's kinda mandatory with these days cancel culture, he was lowkey describing the premises in this 10+ years old interview
@@heroe1486 heh I don't think that being a dick and insulting people has anything to do with cancel culture
@@heroe1486 no one is "cancelling" him he's just getting called out for being a dickhead spastic to what are mostly minor infractions.
does a functional family implies the existence of a oop familiy?
yes
@@ThePrimeTimeagen my family is imperative
@@CEOofCulturalMarxismmy family is procedural
Bwhahahaha
🤣 that is the scary thing is raisaing an oop family
"Respect should be earned" does not mean "disrespect should start first".
The "critizized" person screwed up big time and probably not the first time. Linus fired a broad salve of sarcasm. That's his appraoch to criticism. I like it!
There are two respects here. Respect as a person, and respect as a software developer. You can absolutely tell someone their code sucks ass and needs to be fixed without saying you're surprised they made it to adulthood.
This exactly. And I think this sometimes misses the mark when it comes to how devs deal with each others work.
I feel like in this video prime really jumped around the idea of respect. It's not as complicated as he's making it.
Instead of thinking in the sense of giving/getting respect, how about the idea of not giving/getting disrespect. I actually side with the asker in this case. Linus was just jumping around this blanket idea Instead of saying just straight up owning it. People get a little too comfortable behind a keyboard and monitor sometimes.
Linux would never be what it is without him being honest and ruthless. It was the same with apple. They had good products when jobs was I've. Now it's downhill, every day products are worse. Linus steps down and need to find other way to run our modern world.
@@adriankalyou can be honest and ruthless about code changes without telling the person who made it that they’re a failure of a person who should have been killed.
@@emmetallen5685 also, insulting people isn't "doing the world a favor", in reality people don't get humbled by being insulted, they get pissed and more egotistical, it's even worse if they feel like it's not fair, which lets be real it's what happens in almost every situation. torvalds is saying "if you're not deem of my respect i'm going to treat you like trash", which i hear often, but i wonder how torvalds reacts when it happens to him in real life, when he messes something up and gets mocked.
This! Saying this kind of stuff is just counterproductive and childish. Also, I think a lot of people mistakes being honest with impoliteness.
"In Open Source just find [other] people you like [to work with]". And that's the story of how we got 56 different projects that all try to do the same thing and do it all badly.
And it's okay, because you can use whatever open source software you prefer
That’s the funniest truth I’ve ever read
My default is that disrespect should be earned. By default, I treat everyone with respect and they have to do something to change that. I feel that the whole idea of "people need to earn my respect" is immature and a way to hide behind being a jerk.
I’m the opposite
Totally agree
In that case, the (btw. never named) person earned the disrespect by doing something really stupid.
There's two kinds of respect. Basic respect, which I give by default, and "true" respect which is earned. When I say I really respect someone it means I hold them in high regard.
Another commenter used the word dignity for basic respect which I think is more apt. Treat everyone with dignity unless they refuse to do the same for you.
@@robonator2945 My brain cells just diminished reading this. You must be a funny guy to work with.
Lack of respect is different from disrespect. You don’t have to respect someone, but that doesn’t mean they deserve active disrespect.
It's really pretty simple. Linus is a big shot with a big ego abusing people beneath him because he can. Story old as time.
Or that you would be somehow empowered to deliver it, as he presumes... lol
Usually when coders say such things which were brought up in the video for Linus saying to others, that happens when there is already enough history and problems with the coder who is being critizised. So it's not fair at all to condemn Linus for what he said without understanding the actual context where and when it happened.
@@krakulandia this, I think for him to get to that point he already noticed that the person who is standing in front of him has doubtful credentials. Or in other words plainly lied about their capabilities. You won't call that to a person who you already knew was inexperienced, you will just do it to someone who claimed was among the best or at least very good at something to then turn out to be mediocre, a "bluffer" you would say.
100% agree - but within the context of the video its fair to give a little criticism while remaining open to the possibility that a larger context may change that perspective
being insulted by linus would be like being featured on south park. kind of an honor at this point lol. dude is hilariously savage
Seems like you get railed by everyone
I think there is a cultural component missed here. It's about how humor is used in Scandinavia (and Finland), where you don't joke about real problems, but you joke about trends that might become a problem.
That is to say, if I think a friend is really fat, I will not comment on his weight, but if a normally sized friend is gaining weight, I'll tell him he's one sandwich away from his own event horizon. That way he gets a chuckle from the absurdity and a small nudge.
I think Linus is using humor in the same way. He expects the recipient to know that, of course, he does not wish him wiped from existence, but to still convey that a particular patch was a stupid idea.
And yes, this use of humor with hyperbole is far from universal.
As a Norwegian I agree to an extent. Also having lived in Italy not for almost 8 years, in a culture that is far less direct than the Norwegian one, I certainly think the Scandinavian directness and sometimes dark humor is a part of it, however, there is being direct, and saying things as they are, and then there is pure bullying and just mean spiritedness. You can say someone isn't very good at their job, or suck at it even, but the whole retroactively aborted remark, that's just him being an asshole.
So yeah, he is direct, but he is also a rude asshole that seems full of himself at times.
And it's not just scandinavia, it's central europe too (Germany, Switzerland etc.). This kind of humor is an european thing and it might not be obvious to foreigners.
One sandwich away from his own event horizon lmao, that was good.
The comedy you just described doesn't extend to saying colleagues are incompetent. You can diss your closest friend but a NORMAL Scandinavian wouldn't think of making an exaggerated joke to someone they just met who's submitting a PR.
@@mikinovak7019as a Swiss person hard disagree. Being direct to someone (not in a rude or insulting way) is a big nogo here. People here hate face to face confrontation a lot and they'd rather just shit talk you a ton as soon as you turn your back. Germany though (well depending on the region) can be very direct (example would be the Ruhrgebiet)
I began communicating with Linus in the VAX groups and on the BBS's way back in the early 90's. He's always had no filters.
silicon valley is full of assholes
.. and look where that's gotten him. I don't get how a ponytail w-nker looks at the most successful open source project and has the balls to say "you built it wrong". I'm the same way as Linus (acquired partially from him, in fact) and it's not that we have no filters, it's that we can't be bothered with it. Filtering is not worth the effort and the reduced efficiency of communicating exactly what you mean.
@@paulie-gwhat is even the logic here?
Do you believe Linus wants people to die (since he supposedly communicates exactly what he means)?
Reduced efficiency.. as in, potentially losing people and creating a toxic environment because you can't be bothered to behave decently (or rather actively go out of your way to be abrasive)? Is that your idea of productivity and efficiency?
And you pride yourself on adopting his arguably weakest character traits?
Can you provide any evidence that suggests this actually helped in any way with where he is now?
@@SimonVaIe No, he communicated that he thought the interlocutor was a) being stupid and b) he was p-ssed. Doing so publicly also stimulates the sort of people who strive for peer validation in a social hierarchy (who also happen to be the majority in large open source projects, since there's no pay). The sort of people you would be 'losing' are not worth having as they don't fit the culture.
You know full well that history has no subjunctive mood and running a decades-long test on something like this is untenable. But here's an example that's as close as you're going to get: BSD. It was already mature and popular when Linux first started and had a lot of cache and tradition. FreeBSD, the variant that strives for wide adoption, is nowhere near the size of Linux. It's difficult to control for the effects of their respective licenses, but if the assertion that Linus' work environment was so toxic it would drive away a lot of valuable contributors were true, we'd see them driving progress in FreeBSD. Surprise, we didn't and we don't. FreeBSD even has a CoC now and is actively recruiting the many kernel developers who identify as attack helicopters and demand an 'inclusive environment'. Strangely, they only seem to be interested in working on the CoC, not on the actual kernel.
What did you say to him?
8:26 in college a member of a semester project burst into lab and berated me about how he just spent the last 6 hours debugging my stupid code. It was a real eye opener that I still think about 4 years later. It was just enough public shame to make me realize I needed to be more thorough and be able to learn my tools so I would never be shamed like that again. He apologized later for the outburst and all was well, but it scared me to death in the moment.
I've been on the other side... its pretty triggering ngl, its good that he told you because it really takes some effort to actually go and tell someone this
@@Entropy67 LMAO. It takes real courage to be a bully
I actually think this weird "respect must be given" culture causes outbursts like that. If you keep holding shit in out of societal pressure then when you finally do decide to cut your losses and speak your mind you're gonna have a lot more to say.
It's a similar thing with most parts of life honestly. Just a few decades ago you taught your kids that it was better to have a broken nose and put an asshole in their place then let them go on unimpeeded, now you teach your kids to keep defaulting to authority. That's all well and good, until you actually need to deal with a *_real_* problem. When every second is life and death, police are mere minutes away. This is bad for the person refusing to take action or anyone who they might have taken action to help (for obvious reasons) but it's also bad for the person who would have action taken against too. (not in all cases obviously, but as a rule of thumb) There is a quote that has always stuck with me, "you can always tell whether or not someone has been punched in the jaw by how much shit comes out when they open it". Talking shit, and subsequently getting hit, doesn't just tell you "hey yeah I didn't appreciate that comment you made" it also tells you "not fun is it? Maybe don't talk shit and be a bit more civil next time". In other words, this obsession over civility has a cobra-effect of prompting people towards incivility since otherwise civil people will be pushed and pushed until their breaking point, and otherwise incivil people won't ever have their trajectory corrected and be given a stark reminder that "oh shit, yeah, I actually live in a society with like, other people, and consequences for my actions".
This isn't just faux-psychology either, there are a few schools where the worst-of-the-worst kids go and they have no rules. And, despite having no rules and being filled with all of the worst students who have already been expelled time and time again, those kids get their fucking act together. Why? Simple, they actually were allowed to live with the consequences of their actions. Tehy did talk shit, they did get hit, and after enough times they realized getting hit fucking hurts.
Again, to be clear, not all forms of violence or insults or whatever else is/are acceptable, two highschoolers getting in a fight isn't the same as a mafia member curbstomping someone's skull into the pavement, but it is to say that an obscession with civility can frequently lead to the opposite result. While insults, fights, etc. are distasteful and not the best solution, they are an intrinsic component of social interactions. When you take away tools from those otherwisde willing to be civil, you only give an advantage to those with no concerns as to their civility. World peace sounds good, until you realize North Korea, China, Russia, etc. exist. Dictators won't be voted out of power, so do you really want to stop all coups, wars, etc.? Well great in favour of your cushy fantasy now millions or even billions of people will be born and die under tyrannically oppresive regiemes where even the concept of a human right has never touched their malnourished brains.
TLDR: Conflict is an intrinsic component of any large scale human interaction. It may be an ugly component that we'd like to ignore and demonize so we don't have to accept it, but the reality is it's part of human nature and the more you suppress it the more it will fester. There will always be unacceptable examples of it that should be treated with the condemnation they deserve, but if two drunk fucktards in a bar want to knock a few teeth out that's up to them, and hopefully they'll both learn dentist apointments are cheaper than hospital visits next time they notice a cavity.
@@Entropy67hope you have gotten help. That’s crappy behaviour
I was kind of that guy. Someone sent in his part last minute and it barely hit outdated requirements. I spent the whole night rewriting all the stuff until it worked. He started a heated discussion afterward about why I removed some of his genius coding ideas.
I don`t have a problem if someone isn`t perfect with his tools. We all learn every day. But you need to know and communicate when you have a problem and better deliver the first buggy work early so others can build on it. In my case, I could have told him weeks before that part of what he is spending a lot of time with is kind of neat but unnecessary.
We need to rewrite "sorry" in Rust
Is there not a package already?
What Linus is doing is how basically Finnish work culture dynamics work in general, but in somewhat exaggerated way. I've seen countless of times when people from USA were visiting Finland for work related things and were scared during meetings when Finnish people were so direct and "brutally honest" (as they said) when discussing topics with their superiors and peers. The USA people said that they would be fired on the spot if they interacted like that with their bosses or peers. It's normal in Finland to discuss the topic directly without sugarcoating it, so we get quickly to the real issues and get them fixed. And usually no-one gets offended in the process. It's just that people from other countries aren't used to such directness and not self censoring the discussions. In my experience that is exactly the reason why Finland is so good at cutting edge technology development.
Finns should consider themselves lucky that not many Brazilians work for them. They would leave those meetings without any teeth
@@HitBoxMaster fighting someone over words is cringe lmao
@@KoopstaKlicca
It may be cringe, but it's the "brutal reality", unfiltered.
Really shows what cultures are civilized and what culture is poor
@@dallysinghson5569 glad I don't have to live in those hellholes
You nailed it with approaching everyone with dignity but leaving respect to be earned.
The distinction between this two is not clear--this is an oxymoron in fact. Dignity implies respect, it's in most definitions of the word. What would approaching someone with dignity lack as compared to approaching someone with respect? Semantically not clear.
@@plsreleasethekraken actually... both are respect;
But the target of them is different: one is the person, the other is their skills.
You can say someone is bad at programming... or coded something badly... without saying they should be retroactively aborted.
@@plsreleasethekraken The constitution of the current German state starts with the line: Human dignity is untouchable. Nowadays, the definition of respect is a bit blurry, but I like the distinction made here. Treating someone with dignity means acknowledging their worth, not as an individual but as a human being. Sticking to a certain baseline that you simply don't violate. Treating someone with respect means treating them better than necessary, because you believe in their particular worth as an individual.
@@plsreleasethekraken imo it's different between respect and dignity,
respect is privilege, dignity is right. that's why you can respect someone's dignity since it's not the same thing.
the confusion is there when disrespecting someone is viewed as violating a person's dignity. this is usually happen in the scene of royalty back then, and enforcing respect is the sign of tyrant. when in reality it depends on the ego of the person getting the disrespect. is your self-worth that small/ fragile that the words from people reduce it?
also getting their dignity violated will make people reduce their respect to them anymore. that holds true for like virginity and wealth. for example you got robbed and your house burnt down, now you are a homeless, you won't be as respected.
the two correlate but not always in line due to circumstances.
Linus is a bully. He blocks anyone who gives him this kind of meanness in return. He can't take what he himself dishes out. He's weak, he's stupid, and he can't find teat. No respect for the Linusman
linus wasn't backpedaling...he was doubling down. by saying that 'some people would recognize that as hyperbole' he's saying the question is also stupid. hyperbole isn't "joking", it's just hyperbole.
In this context, credibility is earned
Be assertive and polite
As in the Ten Commandments of egoless programming: Critique code instead of people - be kind to the coder, not to the code.
agreed with this take
@@ThePrimeTimeagenI’m out of energy trying explain bad code to so many…
If you live long enough and work on code all day, things can get personal. You can be machine-like and only judge code but I wouldn't do it and neither would Linus apparently. Also, if Linus saw my code, he'd think I should have been aborted as well and from the code perspective, he is probably right.
If the coder is the root cause of bad code and doesn't listen to criticism of the code, what else you have left other than just banishing that person from working with you?
@@Asto508 no, you write a salty blog post and move on with your life.
a lot of people are pointing out that they'd rather have honest feedback than have low quality feedback which does not teach them anything. I agree with this. However:
"Yeah I think you could write the code better"
"That is some dumb code change it"
"You should work on some other part of the project, I don't think you're a good fit for working on this specific part"
is quite far from
"I'm surprised you're capable of breathing without thinking about it. I didn't think your brain would be able to handle that" and while I'll admit that's kinda funny (and yeah, sorry not as funny as the one Linus came up with) it's not really constructive criticism.
Now am I demanding people take time out of their day to be very constructive about every wittle thing I did wrong? No of course not. But one should also realize that not everyone appreciates their creative insults, especially if they're not close.
Do I wish I could've told certain coworkers "your 'solution' is so bad, error prone, and easily breakable in a refactor it made me wanna jump off a bridge because then I'd be free from working in the same industry as you"? I'd be lying if I said I didn't. But I don't think that would've helped anyone.
they try to normalise throwing out frustration and sick overuse of hierarchy structures,
it's a sick type of competition
I'm against tolerating weakness, and using weakness to own adventage what is opposite to this
civilization was placed between fascism and communism not preserved by taking less evil side 😂
such wording has always a goal, a psychological attack is used to win something
in Japan you can't fire somebody from job
so you move him to worse jobs and do everything so that he would resign himself
not sure how competition works in USA but I see this country as a place of strong competition expecting you do give 100% everyday
despite it being one of most physically unhealthy and drugged nations in the world
so this guarantees incapability of many people to give 100% daily
and small group feeling like Gods because of being in better position
judging everyone with own standards thinking well I could so they could too
that's why wokeness was born there
as for many the barrier to cross to normalcy is enormous
IT is seen as Olympus and it has it's sideeffects
@@szymonbaranowski8184 "despite it being one of most physically unhealthy and drugged nations in the world" indeed, along with China, and North Korea, and Iran, and the UK, and Ireland, and France, and most of Subsaharan Africa, and Afghanistan, and India, and frankly Japan (if you include mental heath).
There is something about the USA's free flow of information that makes the bad as visible as the good, in the other countries I mentioned national face is strongly protected by restricted access to statistical data and low to no media coverage of culturally embarrassing events and trends.
Moreover wokeness is just a new flavor of the same thing that was inside the soviet union, the ccp and the axis powers. The core of it wasn't born in the USA.
It is a phase of a sweeping totalitarian paradigm. In America this phase is stretched out for a much longer period of time because individual freedom exists and sovereign states, counties and districts isolate the legal infection to mostly collectivist areas like large cities and high population states. Top down power which usually makes this infection rapid is actually quite difficult to obtain in the USA due to the intentional decentralized design described by the Constitution and authoritarian limits set in the Bill of Rights.
I think you are mostly correct though.
You're missing the context. Linus doesn't do this in response to one bad patch. He's only ever done it in my time on LKML in response to an act of monumental stupidity (by kernel engineering standards) followed by refusal to acknowledge it.
@@paulie-g fair enough. I did not know that. Linux is his baby and if someone does something really stupid to it and then refuses to acknowledge what they did is stupid, I understand why he said what he said lol.
Thanks for context :)
@@shakibrahman Exactly. If you take responsibility, it doesn't happen. If you fix your sh-t, it doesn't happen. If you understand you were wrong, it doesn't happen. It could happen because of a bad patch, but only if it's the last one of many f-ckups. It's a kernel. It's the kernel that runs the world. If it crashes, bad sh-t happens. People are expected to take their work on it seriously and bring competence. If you can't, you need to find a project that's more appropriate for your level. Not every coder can work on the Linux kernel. Not every kid who loved Lego can grow up to be a rocket engineer. The world isn't fair, I'm not pretty enough to be a model (not now anyway), someone else isn't good enough to work on hard/critical code.
Meh, I don't think there is any justification for being a prick. You can criticize someones work but childish insults aren't really ever called for.
That wasn't a childish insult. That was an EPIC insult. If I was on the receiving end of that one I'd think Damn I f*cked that one up and have a good laugh.
But I'm one of those people that is immune to virtually any insult.
Agreed. Telling someone they should kill themselves because you think their code is bad is just 2 or 3 steps too far.
I agree with Prime in that respect should be earned. But that doesn't mean you have a free pass to be disrepectful to other people. There should be a neutral level of respect for other people where you can give criticism without resorting to telling people to kill themselves or insult their intelligence
If someone disrespects you, then sure. Insult them back. I doubt many people would disagree with that
@@ChrisP872 it is just childish. It basically paints the person as one lacking control or posture, like some deranged old man that is slowly losing their mind and can't help but piss themselves during a lecture.
@@BanAaronHmm, when did Linus say to someone to kill themselves? That's way too far
Although I think insulting someone's intelligence in the most excessive way possible is fine, as it is often taken lighter, because you can't honestly believe that you are that stupid, but you did fuck up.
All in all it depends on the tone as well, repeating words someone has said is meaningless to me without context.
@@xSyn08 I believe people are interpreting linus' comment that the person should be retroactively aborted as a KYS.
I think of giving someone you're newly aquinted with the benefit of the doubt is a kind of respect. You're respecting their human dignity. From there, they can either lose that respect, or solidify it. Edit: continued watching, and this was said almost exactly.
11:40 But what do you understand by "respect"?
I think the default state is - be kind and respectful towards people you don't know. And I think that constitutes a "respect".
Then someone can :
- gain your... I don't know, admiration? Extra respect? Not sure how to phrase it.
- or on the other hand someone can loose your respect.
But the default state is having a respect towards someone. Just as you said - you assume they are capable and you are treating them as such. You are respecting them until proven wrong.
Maybe the issue is with English language, because "being respectful" towards someone does not mean exactly the same thing as "having a respect". In my simple mind both of this things should have the same meaning, but I guess in reality it is something different.
Sorry that I have to say this openly. The world would be a lot better place if people said "sorry", "please", "kindly", and "thank you" more.
0:29 No bro. It simply shows that the person who is speaking has a functioning introspection.
Yeah. It is just a display of humility. It is not self-flagellation to admit one’s shortcomings and apologize in advance for how that might diminish the depth of interaction.
Wouldn't insulting others even jokingly end up making people hesitant to expressing their thoughts?
Seems counter productive.
The discussion is about this: should people be hesitant at all? Like, one should not have such low self-esteem so that a joke would make him hesitant whatsoever. These people should learn how to relax socially, and learn how to feel intimacy with others on a level you can make fun without this unreasonable fear, you know? It looks like we are accepting this psychological illness as the normal, which is actually counter productive if we want a synergic team working together, where we need more intimacy so we can feel free to criticize and make fun, there's no need for fear, this is not like a war, it's just work, it's a safe place, you're not going to be hurt or killed
@@_Akhilleus_
But everyone's line is different.
The markers your mind uses to characterize someone as confident could be the very same markers another might use to judge them arrogant.
Because we are each just the accumulation of our previous social interactions which make us sensitive and blind to different things.
So rather than coming up with an arbitrary standard, it's better to take people as they are which is much harder to do.
Linus's behaviour is really just laziness.
Different people respond to different things and learning who responds to what is much more difficult than just projecting your own views onto the world and expect others to abide.
@@robrick9361 I just don't get why so much fear and insecurity
@@_Akhilleus_ I believe everyone should exercise the stoic way of living. I see a lot of people being too sensitive about simple things.
One should endure these displeasurable Linus' statements, but this fact doesn't matter for the matter of whether these insults should exist or not.
I would endure them, but with displeasure; I "feel" way more than the majority of people, and I'm sure I'll be like that till my death, but I know what should be done even if I feel beaten in the head, I won't go "eye for an eye" (there's not point into following a thoughtless thought), I won't attack back; I'll try to manage the best course of action that should be taken, I'll feel the utter urge to disrespect whoever disrespected me, but I won't disrespect back.
The most curious thing about Linux I've seen is the fact that the Linux kernel development started to adopt the conduct of not using the words "Master", "Slave" and "Black-list", "White-list"; I see a reason to disapprove an offense that was created for the purpose of inflicting damage, but not words that can be associated with something "offensive" and aren't themselves an offense.
@@unknown-qp8pk I see most people making confusion about what is an insult from what is unacceptable behavior. What Linus does is far from unacceptable behavior. It's like what Chris Rock does, and people tend to react like Will Smith. And this ends up trivializing real unacceptable behaviors like racism and prejudice for example, which is way different than joking around
The problem with the question of implicit respect is that everyone operates on different definitions of respect, as far as I've seen.
I know of two definitions, the first:
"a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements."
The second:
"due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others."
I think the first OBVIOUSLY shouldn't be given implicitly. But the second is tougher. I think disregarding someones rights is criminal, and disregarding peoples feelings/wishes/traditions off the bat for no reason is not something I agree with. I think the second type of respect should be given immediately, but can be taken away just as quickly (except due regard for rights, of course).
The first is earned, the second can be broken.
I feel like your definition of respect is exclusively the first
EDIT: I see you get into this at the end. I would say the second definition of respect IS the same as being courteous.
The definitions of Courteous is: "Polite, RESPECTFUL, or considerate in matter"
Acknowledgement vs Respect.
Not thought about at all vs Consideration.
"I think disregarding someones rights is criminal, and disregarding peoples feelings/wishes/traditions off the bat for no reason is not something I agree with." - I get that you may not agree with it but its an opt-in situation. I reserve the right to disregard anything I wish in my life's journey. I will choose what I interact with and regard at any moment. And, yes; it is criminal to remove someones rights. The law grants rights for people based on where you live.
i'm sorry for saying sorry so much, ok??
I-I'm sorry for saying sorry too much
Don't be sorry, I'm already sorry for you
@@itellyouforfree7238 were all saying sorry, lol (sorry)
Sorry guys, didn't want to interrupt, so I waited a couple of months to make sure I'm not gonna interrupt the flow of conversation.
If I did - I'm sorry.
But have you seen deez nuts 🥜🌰 lately?
UPD: Ok, no worries, I've found them, sorry again for an intrusion.
There's a difference between "politically correct" and "good manners and a dash of empathy". No one is asking Linus to pretend men are women or whatever, but don't be a dick just because you can get away with it.
Linus changed his tune over the last couple of years, I think he even went into anger management classes and has claimed to have reformed a bit..
yeah, i want to watch that next
i am trying to figure out if "reformed a bit" is a computer science joke.
Electroshock therapy to flip the assHole bit from 1 to 0 ?
adult autism diagnosis
@@myhops he did a refactor
"I'm sorry but" - the most British way to address someone
If a dude that looks like that taks to me in that way, simply because of a technical disgareement, he better be working remotely.
Decency and respect are not the same. Both can be earned or lost, but best not to default to extreme ends of either.
Arguing for telling someone they should be retroactively aborted because that's "honesty" or people are "too sensitive" isn't very mature, productive or professional. Why think it's okay to make people feel like shit?
There's a difference between earned respect and just being respectful as a fellow human being. People used to know this.
ironically the same immature individuals who find this kind of language acceptable will call you immature over raising an issue with it.
Is not political correctness in this case. Just standard civic norms. It is unjustified and if you don't have patience to dealing with people when they don't understand or do something wrong, you are not fit to be a leader. People are not robots, feelings are not more important than facts, BUT, they are still important. This behavior has an unnecessary negative impact in the community. I stand with this guy on this one.
Totally agree about respect being earned.....but there's a big difference between not respecting someone and being cruel. Cruelty is just not necessary to get a point across and in my opinion is not deserving of respect itself
There will be extremely talented and brilliant engineers that will look at Linus and the stigma of his behavior and correctly say, "Hard Pass" and go and put their skills and knowledge to use in other areas supporting other platforms or companies and Linux will be less for it. That is ultimately the consequence of his behavior.
Sorry to disagree but you can absolutely pre-emptively apologize for something and still do it. For instance, say someone's leg or armed is pinned under something and you know that if they're going to survive you need to cut it off. You don't WANT to cut off their limb, you wouldn't in any other situaiton, and you're definitely not going to like doing it, but you need to. Sorry just expresses guilt or remorse, and there are plenty of actions which you could have either or both of those for and still do them again. I'm honestly not sure where he got this weird "I promise I'll never do X again" thing from it. Does Prime think that when someone says "I'm sorry for your loss" they're saying "I killed your mother, it was me Barry! ... ... but I won't do it again."? Like genuinely I'm not sure where he got this impression of sorry from. Even it's root is just "sorrow", the broad concept of sad/bad thing.
Maybe he got gaslit in the past by someone weaponizing "sorry" against him
Funny how people who pride themselves on honesty are only honest about negative things...
The word you're looking for is courtesy, as in common courtesy. A lot of people don't understand what respect is and say respect when they mean courtesy. Courtesy is being polite to strangers as a common default practice. Respect is holding someone in higher esteem for their achievments. It's a distinction that causes a lot of talking past each other.
This.
No, respect has multiple definitions, one of which is similar to common courtesy (Google/Oxford defines it as "have due regard for"). The problem is that people hear respect and think of the definition you're talking of, and try to argue as if that's it's only meaning.
But saying courtesy is definitely less confusing.
@@ITR "Due" implies being is owed a return proportion to their work, which includes both being rewarded for work and being unrewarded for no work.
@@oldsoul3539 Sorry, I should have kept the entire quote:
```
have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights).
"I respected his views"
Similar:
show consideration for
show regard for
take into consideration
```
It's not inherently tied to work, even if the context it's used to when talking about contributions is work.
@@ITR I meant "work" in the vaguest "you did something" sense, you don't get respect for doing nothing. Note in the examples there's an element of judgement or weighing value involved, you are deciding to respect their beliefs based on the merit of the beliefs even if you don't agree with them. Courtesy has no judgement involved, it's just having good manners.
9:49 So, what I'm seeing here, is that the people have done things worthy of the disrespect in Linus's opinion. That can't be overlooked. I think Linus is totally in the right here. But if they've done nothing, well then obviously they don't need the disrespect, and I don't think anyone is accusing Linus of going around disrespecting people undeservedly.
Respect is earned, decency should always be given! (not disagreeing with most of his stuff being yourself and honest to yourself enables the best of your and finding people that understand u and your weirdness is always the way)
to be frank, both of those occasions the people who were given these insults, really worked on pissing Linus up.
8:32 my issue with this perception is it seems like simplifying into mocking extremes. It sounds to me like "OK, to be rude, because the only other option is to be super nice is calming and not saying hard things". I strongly disagree, we still can tell hard things to each other and at the same time not be rude nor insensitive.
8:46
There is a difference between "Your code sucks and you need to fix this" and "You should be retroactively aborted". A world of difference in fact.
It's the same 😂
@@Xarxes104nah
It may be that people do or don't deserve respect, but the question is always, why should you be the one who can judge that? I find there's almost never good arguments for this.
Also there's a difference between disresprect and respect.
I'd appreciate if Linus just told the other person: "I'm fucking pissed off at you I don't want to work with you". That's honesty, but there isn't an insult in this. It is totally possible and valid to be angry without being hateful.
it's hilarious when people with poor social skills calls poor communication "honesty". No, it's just you suck at communication. Steve jobs made this popular. Most of this is comes from lack of self awareness and lashing out at others when something triggers negative emotions. It's all subconscious.
So much of this is deep seeded insecurities. Even though Torvald doesn't need to prove anything, his subconscious still clings to it and lashes out when it gets triggered. Saying you don't care is just a defense mechanism to mask one's own insecurities.
there's a conflation between respect and compassion. Respect means I hold a person's opinion in higher regard. Compassion means before I open my mouth, I take a few seconds to consider someone feelings first. They aren't mutually exclusive
no, just no
you noted another definition of respect under different name
and yes these two are contradictory
and that's from where whole confusion comes from
probably we always had opposite cultures competing most of time meeting in half
but it's a great observation
problem is most people hold only one definition more dear to them
this discussion is exactly about making order in meanings and right proportions to things
PS We became civilised by learning to keep feelings away from judgements
expecting respecting feelings is as bad as using psychological attack directed at feelings
So people with poor social skills just shouldn’t be allowed to communicate? That doesn’t seem very practical. I would argue that it’s up to people with good social skills to do a better job at finding the intention/meaning of what was said rather than being distracted by how it was said.
Part of good social skills is dealing well with people that have poor social skills.
Genuine social conflict should really only happen when both parties have poor social skills.
If all software engineers were like you, we would have absolute trash because everyone would be focused on feelings.
You can stop the conversation at 4:20 when Linus admits to it all being daddy issues.
Linus seems to be one of those people where I would go out of my way to irritate them, just for the sake of it.
just write bad code. in C++. That would irritate him.
this is a bright red flag for identifying a gamma
How does that make your day/life better? I have never understood this argument
he is as bad as that guy from Microsoft with talk how getting autist working his ass off unknowing how exploited he is is a perfect employee they look for 😂
it's this level of sociopathy
except Linus do not hire anyone so it's voluntary while in corporation it's like officer in prison....
@@Jeppelelle Some people are really amusing when they go all tilty.
If you Google the definition for respect, you get two very distinct definitions, one in regards to politeness and another towards admiration. I think the core of the argument is that these two get confused quite easily lol
The guy should have said "be considered and polite" just to be considered and polite towards those using the other definition.
polite can mean different things depending on culture as well
in one culture it means to show good manners, basic civility
in other it means obeying all written or unwritten customs and laws under threat
of punishment, exclusion
without exceptions
admiration and envy are two sides of one coin depending on persons perception of the
same thing constructive or destructive
good will or bad will
similar with respect
for one person is something granted basic
standard anyone has
for other it's something elevating, sign of being higher
expected, possessed, prohibited from taking away
acknowledged in comparison, stating objective difference, dividing
standard or achievement
first perspective is against differentiating because it lowers value of standard in
comparison, is offence to all lowered by
claiming hierarchy
so guess I guess another definition exists and it's contradictory
There's also the meaning "to fear", which is kind of an offshoot to "admiration" or feeling awe.
I had two tech leads when I first started in code, one was super nice and respectful.He took the time to explain and made sure everything was being made correctly. The other one was an abrasive dick who liked to make you feel like shit for a simple mistake. Both were good coders, but I consider the nice one as the best teacher I had and I still think about the things he taught me. The mean guy left the company short after and I was so relieved.
it's easy to wave the moral flag when you're not in the guy's shoes. linus is maintaining a piece of software that literally runs the internet. he can't afford lollygagging and stupidity
All the more reason to have some professionalism.
@@psyjax2- Professionalism... I think it's also professionalism to listen to substance over tone when someone communicates.
@psyjax2 you could call the way he was irritated about it professionalism. That's how much he cares about this stuff. Yet, yes, he probably shouldn't be so mean.
@@fullserstorm83 You can be irritated, and call someones work out as being sub-par, without resorting to school yard nonsense.
@@Omnifarious0 Nah. There is nothing high-minded here. Just a guy who's got a giant ego being an edgy jerk cuz' he can get away with it.
In Bavaria we have a saying: Not being scolded is praise enough.
poor Bavarian kids
raised for perfect workers but not parents
@@szymonbaranowski8184 Funny. Bavarians are said to have an anarchist streak. There once was the Bavarian Soviet Republic, you know? Only for a month, until it was demolished by fascists and social democrats, no less. But still, Bavarians don't like authority very much. Unless it's our dead king Ludwig II. Probably because he left us pretty much alone and was more concerned with building castles and listening to opera than with ruling.
@@pillmuncher67 Do Bavarians still speak in their own language or you get assimilated in German? I've heard your accent is completely different!
Sorry I'm not European but once I saw a lot of negative comments from other Germans about your accent. Are they aggressive towards you?
Only a German from Bavaria would phrase it like that. To every other non-bavarian german it's simply a common german phrase...
@@sarfaraz73 No, aggressive is not a word I would use. Maybe bewildered is a better description.
The Bavarian dialect is still spoken, in the rural areas more than in the cities. It's, in fact, not just one dialect, but a group of closely related and easily mutually understandable dialects, Im from south western Upper Bavaria, close to where the Bavarian Swabians live, and it shows in some of the words I use and how I pronounce certain things, In eastern or lower Bavaria people speak slightly but recognizably different.
The Swabians dialect comes from the Alemanni, Germans who had their ancestral home at the mouth of the river Elbe (they're called Elbgermans) and who settled along the river Rhine. The Bavarians, OTOH, are a German tribe that emerged in the wider area of what today is Southern Bavaria, Austria and South Tyrol. Where the ancestors of the Bavarians came from is not clear, they may also be descendants of the Elbgermans, some East Germanic tribes, maybe the Boii from Bohemia , local Celtic tribes and Roman settlers, all mixed together. Both Bohemia and Bavaria have their name from the Boii. The original name of the Bavarians was Bajuvari, the men from Boio, today Bohemia in Czechia. "vari" is an old Germanic word that we still use in words like "werewolf", the wolf man. Also the Latin "vir", man, is a cognate. There are some remnants of Latin in the Bavarian dialect, but that may well be because Bavaria has always been deeply Catholic and Latin was an still is the language of the Roman Church.
We have a lot of diphthongs that were lost in other Germanic dialects, and we also have a lot of words that other Germans don't recognize. What you have to understand is that it's not like the dialects are local aberrations from the German language, but that the High German language was created from a set of different dialects that already existed. High German, BTW, gets its name from the high places where it was spoken, in the center and south of Germany, as opposed to Lower German that was spoken in the low planes of the north, so it's a geographical marker and doesn't imply some social stratification.
Through time, and through the more standardized written language (Thanks, Luther), the dialects became more similar to each other. But the Bavarians, obstinate as they are, still insist on keeping their dialect alive, other Germans be damned. Langfocus made a video on RUclips where he compared standard German and Bavarian. Look it up, it's not very long,
one time my english teacher was like "you aren't sorry! did it make you feel sorrow??" I think about it all the time
That is a grade A take, and the best one I've ever heard: "Sorry" = "made to feel sorrow". Brilliant.
Not giving respect doesn't mean insults are in order.
I agree that respect should be earned, but that does not mean you are a jackass to literally everyone else.
It is just basic decency that if someone new to the project asks you a basic question you don't go out of your way to insult them.
when the one in the audience talked about respect, they were imprecise, but everyone knew what was being talked about, linus, consciously or not, moved the goalpost and instead of taking seriously about his verbal abuse, he reframed the conversation to focus on the kind of reverence/admiration that is also associated with the word respect
if he treats politely and with human decency only people he reveres, there’s still no justification for being such an asshole to other people
judge the actions, not the person, criticize the code, not the coder
Pretty much spot on. From what I read of his stuff, it isn't about earned respect, or not tolerating the ignorant, it was about how he acts so abusive it comes off as unprofessional and/or immature. It's almost like that petty coworker who calls you out over simple errors and acts like you nearly deleted the entire database.
I genuinely believe he has developed a bit of narcissism due to his founding of Linux and Git, to the point he believes he can very harshly insult people for the sake of it.
Procedural programming vs object oriented programming amirite
Benefit of the doubt doesn't even mean that you must assume the person is capable. The rule is actually less strict:
It means that until you are perfectly sure they're incapable(and the burden for proving this to yourself is on you) you should never assume they're not capable - so they may still be capable.
So you could think: "This person still can be capable, although I'm tempted to judge quickly".
This contrast between what's possible, and what we automatically expect really shows the value of the high standard of the benefit of the doubt.
It is analogous to positive thinking, which can be criticized when done excessively, but contains the truth that you limit your perception of positive things if you're not open to their possibility.
I don't think respect is earned, I think trust is earned. I think the view that someone needs to earn your respect is a cheap excuse to be rude, selfish, or lazy. If you have a new intern, you should totally treat that person with respect for their humanity, their prior work experience, etc. But no, you shouldn't entrust them with the same information or responsibility as a senior engineer. Your respect for a person can certainly grow over time, but I don't think it should start at zero.
I agree everyone has a slightly different definition of respect, but mine is coming from the fact that I think most people would say that Linus was 'disrespectful' to the guy who he said should be dead.
It should definitely start at zero - not above it, not below it, but at it. A really horrible PR earns negative respect
there are two kinds of respect:
- seeing somebody as a human person
- thinking of somebody as being competent (this one is also required to be in a position of authority)
Respect - a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. So you first have to develop your abilities and achieve something - aka - earn.
And you simply don’t have any idea of what the word you use means.
I’m currently not rude to you because I don’t respect you, I don’t but that’s not the reason why I’m speaking like that, but because you already showed you’re not worse anyone’s time.
He addressed that point in the video, and you just have to look up the definition to understand where you’re wrong.
The scenario opened here is just wrong. Like bro, some people code worse than others, does it mean you gotta tell them they arent worth shit and hang themselfs for the shit they wrote or can you just tell them their code isnt good and you expect better even at their skilllevel.
Everyone here is like "Respect should be earned" yeah real respect based on accoplishment should be earned nobody expects you to bow down to a junior, just dont be a shithead for your own amusement
I had a very hard time figuring out what respect meant growing up, because whenever I got in trouble my father would scold me for not respecting him or tools or the house, or whatever, and it seemed like a pretty blanket term for just not doing what he wanted.
That being said I did eventually come to the conclusion that respect is a combination of polite, courteous, and attentive - also "right-action" but thats a whole thing in itself which changes its definition depending on your surroundings. Respecting authority for example, would be being polite, loyal, courteous, and attentive to the authority figure. You give them no offense, are attentive to their demands, and are courteous to their needs.
respect can be very complicated.
> it seemed like a pretty blanket term for just not doing what he wanted
That's how bullies and abusive individuals use respect. Linus says he comes from a troublesome family and I think that's perfectly reflected in his unhealthy stance on respect. He thinks it means submission, admiration and condescension. Anyone emotionally healthy can see that respect is not about political correctness, softness or going woke. Is baseline human decency. Be polite, see the human first, acknowledge no one is perfect, we can all make mistakes, and we all deserve dignity. For healthy people cruelty is unnecessary. For some emotionally traumatized or neglected people, cruelty is mandatory, to receive it or dish it to others, and they don't feel comfortable unless cruelty is present in all their social interactions. They're hurt and you can tell.
@@Leo0718 There is respect as in basic human decency (treating people with respect) but there's also respect as in valuing or thinking highly of someone or their actions or opinions. I think the first one you should just do by default when interacting with people you haven't met before. It's just being polite. The second one needs to be earned.
And the fact that the same word is used for both is just really annoying.
Respect and mind-reading are not synonymous nor interchangeable. FK anyone who goes off because of being "disrespected", FK em and their fantastical delusions.
Respect has two meanings: #1. Treat someone politely as a human, #2. Submitting to someone as an authority.
Your father and Linus use the second meaning. If you look the word up in any dictionary, you'll find they've separated the two meanings.
So it's not complicated at all.
I don't really like the term respect for the same reason. I found myself in similar scenarios and they could never actually explain what respect is
it just seems like an arbitrary list of rules that are made up on the spot so I don't "respect" the concept of respect. manners is in the same boat
You don't have to be respectful, just civil. The formal term is civil discourse. You can look it up. It can be argumentative, but it'll remain civil. It can include debate, but it has to be factual. It won't involve ad hominem attacks - this being something that Linus in the given example did fail. etc.
You misunderstand civility, it is not verbal politeness which is reserved for those for whom you hold intimate affection, it is the limitation of conflict to verbal harassment in place of true violence which is the natural course of correction. When social bullying is not employed a return to that natural order of violence is inevitable, for the simple reason that you have explicitly removed the only negative disincentive for bad behavior in a 'civil' aka non violent society.
Common fault of modern aka retarded man, too divorced from the cultural context of society to understand how any of it fucking works and thus has no fucking clue why it doesn't fucking work.
There is literally no reason to tell someone to go kill themselves in a PR. I get that negative feedback is an aspect of development. I don't see a justification for this behavior.
EDIT: fixed some Grammer and typos.
Do you tend to take most jokes literally?
@@ChrisP872 what joke are you referring to? Linus back peddled on his "joke" so it wasn't really a joke after all. It's a PR. Why waste your time writing that extra comment. If Linus wants to keep it focused on the technology, then keep it about technology. This isn't even a PC thing. It's just a waste of time.
Also, such a cowardly way out, "bro it's just a joke man. Can't you handle a prank." Same energy as those unfunny RUclips prank videos.
maybe because he wasted several hours discussing with an idiot about some stupid subject?
Attack the idea not the person. It's nothing to do with "respect must be earned" - that is a red herring to hide from the fact this was unacceptable behavior.
I'd never work with someone who reduces themselves to a temper tantrum toddler whenever they encounter things they don't like.
Simply close the PR. No comment even necessary. If a comment is necessary then explain why it is a bad idea or don't say anything.
I lean towards constructive language. Sometimes the most constructive language is the most shocking, and it kinda hurts. That might be why there are times when rude language is warranted, and isn't mutually exclusive to respect. However the vast majority of the time it seems that things are better communicated and understood through kind language. People get defensive and stop listening if they're constantly being bashed.
This is not technical at all but is crucial to its longer-term survival, that of Open-source & arguably it’s most illustrious proponent Linus. If I were him, I would lay off that damn piece of bottle that seems to follow him everywhere like a shadow: that bottle full of kilos of pure white refined sugar.
I think theres a difference between insulting a human and saying "ok this code is shit". Respect should be earned sure, but treating someone how you would want to be treated should be the norm.
You can never get people to work better or do better if you berate them. Sure, you are running a business, you need people who can do the job independently, but if they can't don't berate them. First off, you hired them, so think why you did that. Second, even the most clueless people (like myself), can grow in a short time to become competent and even brilliant developers.
You have to help people grow, teach them, let them have the time to grow into the role, not break what little confidence they have in their skills and desire in working in that project. A good leader inspires passion in people, so that even if they are not paid, they would fight tooth and nail to do sth great for the project.
There is a middle ground between respect and contempt; you don't need to respect people unless they deserve it, agreed! but, you don't need treat people with contempt either. you can choose to ignore people who don't match with your level of intelligence or choose not to associate with them. disrespecting people for no reason is nothing but arrogance.
No, you can be sorry to hurt someone in their feelings though it is the right thing to do.
6:57 That could also be seen as gaslighting / invalidation. I dont think he is paddling back, it is more like "I am not sorry for my deeds, but your _perception_ of them". You know, he did nothing wrong - you just interpreted it wrong... Sure.
no he did not say that /s
There is still absolutely no need to be a complete sack of excrement... You can be direct and honest without destroying someone's self esteem.
What if they're too self-important, and you need to knock them off of their high-horse?
If you were building a software that literally operates on people, and then some idiot was repeatedly trying to make some changes to said software that you know would actually kill people, wouldn't you be angry? Linux is like that, in a metaphorical sense. Many things depend on it. When you're building something that important, you can't afford to care about anyone's feefees.
@@longlostwraith5106 You can just withhold power from someone that isn't ready. You can do that without doing maximum damage to their self esteem. And you cannot stop an idiot from forking the kernel anyway, and yet the world keeps spinning ;)
For me giving people respect is the number one way to move up through the world. Respect doesn't need to be earned but should be able to be lost very quickly.
That sounds a lot like kissing ass.
There is respect and there is respect. The basic respect, i.e. the basic concession of dignity, is usually not something you have to earn.
But then there is this "TOTAL respect" that some people confuse with the first thing, i.e. demanding that every crap that their "technically less skilled mind" (to say the least) comes up with has to be accepted as the greatest gift to the world. THAT last thing is what Linus refuses to offer. And he is right.
There are multiple facets of respect. You can respect someone's inexperience, or weaknesses, or situations or problems as a fellow human, without respecting the quality of their work. Linus is just incapable of separating those two things. His work defines his value as a human in his mind, and therefore anyone with subpar quality of work is an overall subpar human. As soon as you separate out respect into proper categories, you can build much healthier relationships with other humans.
He is not incapable. When he made the insult he was work linus, programmer linus. Working with other programmers. I agree with you though, a role is not the same as being a human. We can all play the pawn and king. Also culture's are different
Best bosses and coworkers I've ever had were like Linus. I think I'm also like Linus. Heres the best thing - the opening insult was fucking hilarious and if someone said that to me in a PR review I'd laugh my ass off and use it on my friends.
100%
The intent and overall relationship with the said person matters. Also, it matters if you're willing to take insults and burns, not only give them. A boss who "roasts" people all the time and then gets mad and starts foaming whenever someone claps back is just an a**hole with a superiority complex.
> and use it on my friends.
Why not your coworkers and subordinates?
@@bobbycrosby9765 oh I do.
i don't know if telling someone their family should have died in a house fire has anything to do with political correctness
There would be no problem is saying "your PR is bad", "you idea is terrible", "this code sucks".
But I'm not sure in how mentioning retroactive abortion and not being able to find a tit would help in the linux development. If he's so stressed about it, he could do boxing or knitting to calm down, there's no need to throw his anger at others
i'm sure it wasnt the first time he had to explain the same damn thing to such "idiot"
@@itellyouforfree7238 not an excuse, It happened to me as tech lead to have to explain stuff to poeple that really do not understand what they are doing.
but i stay courtois; Always.
Courteous literally means: "polite, respectful, or considerate in manner."
I think Linus (and Prime) is (are) conflating respecting someone, with Treating someone With respect.
I love how people sugarcoat stuff, Linus Torvalds Insults people because he is rude, period. I like his persona, I admire his achievements. but that doesn't mean I will look away from the cold hard truth he has no people skills and that's not something you should copy or admire...
Let's be honest he got annoyed and decided to offend the person, that's it. He could be brutally honest just saying: bro you're incompetent, go find another project to work in. That would be acceptable. Anyhow just one more Rhino in tech.
You're right. Saying "you're incompetent" would've been acceptable. (In private. Not something you normally do in text in public as a boss.)
But to offend someone because they're not as good as you at programming is fucking low. Especially when done in public.
@@BenRangel Nothing low about it. Maybe his insult helped that person grow some character.
This "Rhino in tech" has done more and will continue to do more for the world's technology than you and a billion other soydevs will in your entire lifetime combined.
Linus forgets life might be a bit harder for others than for him. He is a bit of a prima dona.
You need to take into account that the guy has been working in C for >40 years, where the compiler constantly tells you that you are a dumb to your face.
He is desensitized.
And some times it doesn't even tell you that and proceeds to fuck you in the ass during runtime...
You're confusing C with Rust. In C, segfaults tell you that you're dumb.
Common decency is different to respect.
You can be decent to a person without respecting their skills.
Gosh, I kinda cringe at the way Linus is trying to justify himself in front of this audience. I find his arguments really sloppy. He should just say "I'm abrasive I know, and I can't be bothered" that's enough, but all the sugarcoat with "respect should be earned", "open source is a place when you can find people you like !" is cringey to me
But anyways, who cares, there's even no context about to whom and where this was said
It was a pull request for code on the Linux kernel. He posted this answer as his code review, in a public place where everyone could read it. Real mature software developer right there. Mind you, this is not the first, the only nor even the worse thing that Linus has written about other fellow software developers. He is a very angry and sensitive man.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. If a police officer has to arrest someone who killed another person in order to defend an innocent person, they can say they are sorry they have to arrest them but they still have to do it because its the law.
I think we are talking about two different types of respect here. The first is basic human respect, which should be given to everyone initially, but can be deminished and the second is personal respect, which is always earned by the person.
5:15 , yeah you have all the power to choose who you want to work with. But you don't need to insult people just because you don't want to work with them. Criticize their code, or ignore them. Both options are better than choosing to spend your time writing a response that is 100% anti-productive.
Linus has the perfect perfume against incompetence: Eau d'Abrasif.
Good one 😂
13:00 Your PR is garbage, it's very different from saying that whoever wrote that code is. In that I think Linus is wrong, when he criticizes the person and not the technology or the code.
There is a basic "human respect" that should be given to everyone automatically (unless they do something which disqualifies them from it). By personally insulting people Linas is not giving them that "human respect". Linas is deliberately conflating "technical respect" with "human respect" because he's just a bit of an asshole and in a position where he doesn't have to change himself - that doesn't make him right, just powerful.
I very much agree.
Yet you're insulting him saying he's an asshole
This is why duels need to be brought back. You can only make those insults when you expect others won't do something about it.
I really wish he would have just said "because I'm an egotistical prick but I'm working on it".
I'm not sure if he likes to receive this kind of joke. I agree on respect should be earn, but it doesn't mean disrespect is free.
In the end, it was a good move from the guy, saying sorry beforehand, because it was connected to the discussing afterward.
So he chooses a different way, to bring up and talk about controversial topics ...not being too offensive, but bringing them up, reflecting them, making a standpoint. It was a dialogue in the end somehow.
Not gonna lie Linus is a savage beast for that insult lmfao.
Being honest and not politically correct is still quite a few steps removed from publicly telling people you'd prefer they die.
@@valmirius Depends on the corner of the internet. I know there's certain websites and forums where gratuitous insults are the norm, but open source software development? The fact that it is so public and that there is no way to indicate the exact tone over text make it worse than if it were said in person, at least to me. More likely to be taken as not a joke.
@@valmirius Corporate professionalism? My boss considers me sorely lacking in that respect, and everyone who knows me is not surprised by that fact. I like the idea of communicating directly and saying harsh truths when necessary, and I practice what I preach. I like crude humor too. It's just that in this concrete case, we're discussing sending death wishes over text on public channels. Trying to pass off such behavior as a joke, or necessary truth, or the people who don't like it as politically correct or corporate just isn't going to fly.
There is room to not be politically correct or corporate, without being meanspirited and cruel. And I refuse to let meanspirited dickheads like Linus Torvalds hijack the notions of direct communication and dark humor as cover to be a nasty jerk to people.
I don't believe respect should be earned. I think respect should be fundamental to interaction until a point is reached where that respect should be withdrawn.
At which point you excuse yourself out of the interaction like a normal human would
I can be sorry for something i willingly do. If me doing it is more important than making you feel good, i will do it, i will just feel bad about it. So apologizing for asking something you believe will inconvenience the other party is perfectly valid. It just means that you need the answer more than not hurting his feelings.
I don't think this is political correctness, I think it's just regular correctness.