Why are subwoofers attacked?
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- Опубликовано: 11 ноя 2017
- Subwoofers are the missing link in high-end audio and one of the best-kept secrets that really need to be opened up. Why do you need a subwoofer if you're not playing bass? Find out why in this newest video. Have a question you'd like to ask Paul? Go to www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
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During late night low-level listening, a subwoofer as a footrest increases the visceral experience you would otherwise be missing at low decibels.
Zoidberg Tip #114
Great video, I immediately subscribed. I agree on your statement of the importance to have a subwoofer for listening music. I'm a musician & producer, and if you look at a acoustic piano, the lowest key is 25Hz. On a digital, 61 key, keyboard the lowest standard is 33Hz. Not even mentioning an acoustic drum. I've got an excellent audio set-up, with high quality hi-fi equipment. I do watch movies on DVD & Blu-ray, sounds great by the way, but the subwoofer I use is also active when I play an audio CD or a vinyl record. I've got lots of original music on CD & vinyl in all categories from music genres. Simply said: from classical music to electronic dance music from this era, and everything between it. You said it right on this particular video. It doesn't matter which kind of music you prefer, a subwoofer is necessary if you want to come the closet on the music you play to how the artist was recording it, and thus how it should actually sounded as intended with the original recording. It took me months to place and adjust my active subwoofer properly to sound as it bests. Now, I finally have a great bass response from my sub, and it doesn't sound boomy like cheap audio equipment. Not mentioning any brand here, I don't want to insult people for what that buy, but I've heard subwoofers in my lifetime from some famous brands that sounded like cheap crap. Okay, I'm a musician & producer, and I like excellent sound quality, but people who never used a proper subwoofer don't even know what they are missing. I'm going to check more of your video's on your channel. I simply love subwoofers & bass. Friendly regards, Emiel, The Netherlands
I have found that through experiment, that for me, as a way to tighten response, and to a certain extent, minimize room interaction, that stuffing the port was ideal. It worked like a charm. No more boom and a more coherent blend with my stand mounted bookshelf speakers.
I never thought about a sub but your videos convinced me. Now I added a sup and yes, it makes a big difference, I love it and would never listen without it. Thank you for your videos.
That and its the fact that a sub set up well puts the feeling back into music that most two channel speakers won't. There are many bass instruments being played in a performance the audience will feel as well as hear after all
Paul: "Floor" is defined as "Presence". The low frequency information defines All. "Musicality"! Love you're Videos!
Very very interesting and helpful! Thank you.
Hubert, Germany
Great Video! Well said.
The enhancement of realism . Fair point .
I have to fully agree with you Paul. Wolffer is definitely very crucial for the reproduction music. It doesn't have to be loud or overwhelming. I currently listen to paradigne 11seMk3 tower speakers. You would think alone they play low enough in which they do. I still use a subwoofer strategically placed in the room. I believe placement for the subwofer is absolutely crucial. Great topic stand your ground!
More sub talk is better than none.
Most folks aren't aware of, or, don't know,
about the physics/math of the cubic feet
of air to be moved by a subwoofer in a said space or room.
In other words...
the right size of sub for the right size room.
Subs in truck & cars come to mind.
Most of the energy aka sound, is delivered 100 feet outside
& down the street from the cab of the car/truck itself
as the cab doesn't have the mass area to support the air
being moved by the larger, hugely powered subs, many kids
today are running in their vehicles.
Same principles apply to the home.
Overkill, can kill the tactility & musicality of the material be played.
~ peace
> Most of the energy aka sound, is delivered 100 feet outside
I think that's the point xD
I'm only @ minute 2:30 and I'm already nodding and smiling. I completely agree with his opinion, I started my quest for better audio quality by researching and testing speakers. I however always wanted to have a home cinema speaker set that could fulfill both my musical and cinema passion. So, I started searching components and building my own speakers. Long story short, I now have a 7.1 build with four 3 way speakers (front and back which can go as low as 30Hz @ 85db). And before I made the subwoofer (my last piece of hardware), I really missed the smoothness and the agility of a sub. The low frequency audio spectrum needs its proper place for a proper audio image. My sub is a also a DIY, 15" sealed design (simple yet very good to music and movies) that weights ~68kg, and I can't not fathom the idea of not having it on while my music is playing on my set. After doing the "subwoofer crawl" I came out with only 2 ideal spots to put the sub, and it has been there ever since. A well made and well balanced subwoofer is a must have for everyone that enjoys audio, being music or cinema .
How true, Paul. Just listen to some piano music by Debussy with and without a sub and the difference is incredible with the sub. Thanks.
I believe one reason they are attacked is that most of the ones I've heard are played WAY TOO LOUD relative to the speakers! Also, most systems that I've seen, route BOTH channels' bass into ONE subwoofer. I guess they assume that low frequencies have no directionality?
True most people tend to set their sub woofers to +12 dB compared to the rest of the system.
Bass management fixes all the basic problems with subs. And don’t assume the sub has to go in a corner or the front of the room. Another trick that helps is the subwoofer crawl.
Good recordings usually have mono bass because bass loses weight when you make it stereo. More likely to have phase problems etc compared to mono.
LOL no listen to any rap track with stereo subs.
@@Ninja_Gaijin they have mono bass because their studio have only one position to listen to their mix. When you have multiple seating, you need multiple subwoofer to have an more even bass
Ive been using at least one sub(12" 75w) since 1979. And two or more since 2004. Got to have them for music as much as for movies. Depending on the room, I've had them in the corners, at the mid-points of the walls, and at the main L/R locations, with the 3-ways stacked on top of the subs.
And subs don't have to be pumping 110 dB to make a difference. Just up 5 dB above the mains works very well.
I love my Infinity IRS Beta, best bass I´ve ever heard, period!!!
I´m sure Paul agrees :-)
Splendid, thank you again, Paul!
(So you think I need to augment my Sprout with a SW? ;-)
Not only hear, you can feel it, I'm using 4 subwoofers, strategically placed, I have a real nice bass curve, I enjoy it nearly every day.
I use dual subs and I like music in surround and stereo. The 1812 cannon shots move around the room. But I still have a 4 channel 8 track deck in My system, So maybe I'm just nuts.
I have 2 15 inch Sundown Subwoofers in my car tuned at 35hz an I love it! My Mids an Highs are also up to par too so not just bass! But I think it's the rattling an loudness of a properly wired an boxed sub!
So you are the guy whose vehicle is thudding bass into everyone else’s car at the stop light?
@@scrambaba lol ya I upgraded after that system to one 15" DC audio level 5 subwoofer and it was alot louder!
I feel like my Polk Sda1's do go down that low. I have never felt the need for a sub and this coming from a guy that was a bass head in his teenage years. :)
what do you think of Pioneer's CS-99A?
Does your high end system reproduce the lows you are talking about without a separate subwoofer?
I prefer two sources of low tones and they are supposed to be located close to midrange for phase coherence in common range for adjacent channel. Not mention how carefully I align them to secure square signal perception It is not imaginable for subwoofer placed by judgement. . Also one source is like one center of rings on the water. Two make much more variety which may be still does'n make the game but is desired for equalized low/mid range .
A pair of subwoofers in your system not only enhance what you hear but also what you feel.
Could somebody please name some records where subway under Carnegie Hall is heard?
I my experience most subwoofer-situations are messed up.
They need to be chosen right(quality, power), placed right (phase, roommodes) and dialed in thoroughly (crosoverfrequency, level). If you measure at least with an app on the phone and a sweep and your music you can get it right. But it is not easy, but so rewarding
Since 1988 (when I bought a JBL Subcontrol 1G with my first self earned money) I cannot imagine HiFi- Reproduction without a "Specialist " for the low & lowest Frequencies. Afew month ago I built my actual SW whose specs were ruled by a very low budget. A 12" Mivoc AW 3000 in sealed 45 liters driven by two paralleled TDA7293 which got 80000µF per rail to suck some tasty current from. As Xover Frequencie I never go over 80Hz. This Speaker has to concentrate all on the very low ones. No need to let it play MidBass.
I have a 2.2 system and a seperate 4 speaker system in the same room and 2.2 can hold it's own against the 4 speaker system with no sub.
Bass is essential
you should create an computer program, that allows people reproduce their audio room and then calculate the best place to put the sub
There is a subwoofer from tekton has 3 drivers (2 8inch+ 1 18inch), its looks good, any idea ?
The 18 inch might be a passive radiator otherwise that would be a strange setup.
I wanted to get a subwoofer for my home theater system, but my wife wouldn't allow it. She said the bass would have the neighbors calling the police on us. She said it's too loud, too boomy and takes away from the rest of the music. She has a grudge against anything that produces too much bass, probably because of the many people who play it so loud that it disturbs people for blocks around, especially in cars.
The lowest octave provides an effective foundation for the rest of the frequency range. For music enthusiasts, subs have gotten a bad reputation due to poorly engineered subs not properly blended with the mains. Get it right, and it makes everything sound better.
One thing that I've noticed, no High End system that I've listened to can reproduce a taiko low frequency beat proper without a subwoofer. Go to a live taiko show and see for youself, every taiko beat coming from that HUGE taiko drum looks like your chest is gonna to explode.
Not to say other sound textures and nuances that only a subwoofer can reproduce.
Blue Man Group sometimes has a huge drum.
Journey’s drummer used a very deep floor Tom Tom.
Fairly easy answer here. We have far too many absolute/rigid thinking purists among our ranks which confuses me as to why the exact same bunch so accepts the use of tweeters so easily. So much of this market is "This is how we've always done it & that will never change" to even consider subs. Infrasonics & their practical application confuse the dickens out of them. Many of these same purists are a sad lot I've always contended with since my past years of Quadrophonic use. Thanx, 'Ole Audiophile/out.
I remember one customer has a Tannoy bookshelf pair, he ask me about subwoofer. I told him why not and I bring a Tannoy subwoofer to his room and let's him check it out. The sound is too good for the price...sure I show him how to adjust the subwoofer to match his need. In the end sound good or not is what you want to hear, the feel it give you...not the hi-end mark on the items.
Music doesn't magically end at 20Hz. I run a multi-channel living room setup with an insanely large multi-driver infinite baffle subwoofer. It is flat to 10Hz and extends down past 5Hz. The level is set differently for the source material. During movies, the sub is cranked. :) I've been an advocate of multiple subwoofers for years. It's a great way to combat room nulls. It's also easier to sell the wife on two smaller subwoofers than one big one.
Bigger size speakers matter for bass/air movement
It kind of surprises me that a small sub-woofer can produce sound that a much larger speaker, with a much larger bass driver, connected to an amp with more power than the plate amp on the sub has, can produce.
I wind up the bass control, give my big speaker 'heaps' yet not much happens, unlike my bargain basement sub.
Thank you Paul you explain to me why I don't want a subwoofer I don't want to hear all of the background noise. My infinity kappa 8s.my emotiva basx 300 Poweramp is sweet .
I have big floor-standing Focal speakers and still they do not do well below approx. 40 Hz. As soon as I added Sub-woofers it just completed the sound, but my biggest surprise is that I perceive midrange and high ranges differently too. It all just sounds better. This is probably psycho-acoustic effects, but I don't care. I will not remove my subs... :)
By using a crossover to split the sub bass and other signals, the other signals into the full range speakers DO sound better/clearer. Because they have more powered dedicated to the low, mid and highs by not having to work with the subs as well.
Possibly, but the sub gets it's own output from the pre-amp. And I set the sub to complement the Focal Speakers where they fade out in the bottom. I have not changed anything with the signal passing to the Focal Speakers. That is the surprising part.
We are mixing for kids cell phones now days or a set of head phones that make the bass extreme, so in reality no sub is required to mix or master a track. do a review your mix vs someone that uses 5inch speakers only. a good mix is a good mix
Paul, I thought about using two subs, one behind each loudspeaker to keep the stereo imaging pure... Is that overkill? Anyone try two subs?
Esoteric Audiophile twin subs are ace but not for the stereo just mainly to be able to counter room reflections
As the sub base is less directional then there isn’t as much need for them to be a perfect stereo position wise
There is such thing as overkill concerning subs! I use 2 x 21". No distortion , minimum membrane movement.
Thanks for that info... Appreciate it :)
Thanks for the reply! I appreciate your experience! makes sense, it doesnt hurt to add a second one to balance the sound, simply feed only the respective L R signals to each one...
Paul, Thank you for this series.
Very informative!
I run two REL subwoofers in each of my music rooms. No matter what anyone says, you can tell if only one is in play ( except when placing the speakers across a corner at 45° either side of the sub :)
The increase in "atmosphere " is palpable. Yes you can feel traffic noise and subway trains in Janos Starker's Mercury recodings - which I find annoying! What you missed out on is mentioning the increased MUSICAL REALISM!
Even with transmission line speakers which go down to 27hz, the subs restore body to double basses bass drums and pianoforte (!) Don't forget Organ bass notes and their effect on hall acoustics.
I don't think you should fool around with cables until you get the bass right ;-)
I am currently using a DSPeaker Dualcore 2.0 to control room modes. It works spectacularly well in removing the room. You hinted at this. Are you planning a similar product?
2 subs... Make it 4. I need BASS!!
So why you make full range speakers , but no subwoofer?
They make servo-controlled speaker systems, which do not require a subwoofer. I have a servo system that goes all the way down to 30 Hz (F3) with 5 1/4" woofers.
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subwoofers get attacked.
_subwoofers know what they did._
❤👍👍👍
i have a 2000 watt subwoofer system for my house
you dont use a bus to carry stones instead of a dumper
Is there a subwoofer for headphones? Probably tubes do that job
ernie g You don’t need a subwoofer for headphones. A good quality set of headphones should have all the qualities that you would desire. A good DAC will make em or break em too. As far as tubes go, I personally believe that they do add a bit of magic that can’t be necessarily achieved otherwise but sound is objective to each individual.
What Paul is talking about is for speakers. Optimal positioning for speakers a majority of the time is not optimal for the bass. On my setup I have subs built into the front three speakers. I set my speakers as full range but do not send LFE signals to them. I have two SVS PC-13 Ultras that I send the LFE signal to. My receiver has a function in which it will still send the full range to the speakers while still sending signals to the LFE channel.
I agree with Paul %100. No matter how fantastic the speakers are, getting the optimal sound is dependent on many things, positioning being as if not more important than the components you choose to begin with. Position the speakers in the optimal location/positioning and add subs in the ideal locations for your low end. The music comes to life when done properly.
Drummers who play with in ear monitors often use a Throne Thumper as a sub woofer replacement to "feel" the bass. So a subwoofer for headphones actually does exist. But of course it's not practical for home use.
Michel Roerdink That’s a bit different than what this video is about and what the question was probably referring to.... The same thing can be achieved with a silent subwoofer or a sub placed nearfield playing just midrange frequencies. The video was about audio quality. With headphones you have removed any room variables, you are in the sweet spot at all times. A proper set of headphones will be able to reproduce the low end. If you do miss the feeling of the bass than you are absolutely correct that there are those options.
There is no "essential or critical" need for a subwoofer...or that guy.
I'd agree with you, but there's no sense in both of us being wrong.
its no mistery why they have such a bad reputation, and its basically because of their owner's poor use. People mistake loudness with quality; that's why you everyone so hyped about the volume they can reach and how many windows can they explode. Never do they stop and actually realise that eveything sounds distorted; all new pop and techo music relies soley on that... If artists exploit the base, the crowds will try to exploit it even more. It's all an exageration now, its just midless low frecuency, high volume and punch...
Because subs only becoming popular to the mainstream in the era of home theater and thumbing car stereos. Ur friends knows nothing.