I'm Canadian. Rouge is not just a leisure airline. AC has Rouge flying a lot of domestic routes, too. Very often, you will book a ticket on AC, only for the flight to be changed to "operated by Rouge" a few days before departure. In my opinion, this is done on purpose, so AC can charge extraordinarily high prices, only to then pull a bait on switch on customers. Rouge aircraft have more rows and practically non existent legroom.
Agreed! I have always contested the term "low cost," as I have yet to see a difference in fares, be it a dollar value or by Aeroplan points. Our regular route to St. Lucia was switched to Rouge many years back. Almost always an archaic A319, with zero legroom, extremely uncomfortable seating and sub par service. And guess what it costs? The same as AC proper. Rouge is and always will be a scam.
1. It modernized Rouge's fleet on paper 2. It makes maintenance easier because one airframe and its common 3. Air Canda can move the Rogue 321's into their mainline fleet. 4. Air Canda can take the Rouge 767's out of the boneyard to fill in the gaps until their other 55 aircraft on order come in. Assessment: Smart decision
@@vapenaysh5087 In that case,the move might be related to two things: it could give AC time to ponder their next purchase, waiting to see where the manufacturers will be a bit down the line; it could also make it slightly more appealing for a potential buyer to take over Rouge, or its assets, should the low-cost airline be in as much trouble as many others.
@@vapenaysh5087 yes but the books are different, so the numbers are separated. They can allocate less money for rouge maintenance, allowing them to move money on paper somewhere else. These are mostly fiscal changes.
Plane swap between Rouge and Air Canada is my guess Rouge gets the 737 Maxes and Air Canada gets the A321s with them retiring the A319s My hunch is that the 3 year timeline gives Air Canada time to wait a bit and see the state of manufacturing before they need to make a decision. Letting the supply chain issues sort out for both makers and see what happens next between Boeing and Airbus.
agreed it also gives time for airbus to decide if they are going to stretch the a220 as they are also looking pondering to do a new narrow body to beat Boeing to it.
I feel like Air Canada is preparing to order the A320. Air Canada still operates a lot of narrow-body routes, and there is no reason for them to give up these routes. Since they have transferred all the Boeing 737 Max, they are most likely preparing to supplement them with the new A320 neo.
@David-XWB makes total sense to me. They just recently got 6 second hand A320 from Alaska Airlines. I doubt they're keeping them only for a couple of years since these planes aren't that old either. Also, AC invested in an extensive avionics upgrade for their Airbus Fleet
The only reason this is happening is that it was negotiated in the AC pilots' new contract. There is a clause that AC cannot operate the same aircraft type at both Mainline and Rouge. So, the decision has been made to move the 737 to Rouge and all the airbus 32x fleet back to mainline.
They didn’t really have a choice. This was negotiated on in the new pilot contract that took effect recently. Mainline and Rouge aren’t allowed to operate the same aircraft (by type rating)
I think many people will get ripped off from buying tickets that will be switched from AC mainline to Rouge due to "unavoidable aircraft availability" issues. They already do it, but now it'll get worse.
Air Canada was one of the first major customers of Airbus narrow body A320 jets in late 1980s to early 1990s. When this first batch of narrow bodies were due for replacement, Air Canada standardized on Boeing 737Max. It seems it is having a second thought on this decision, likely due to changing fortunes of A320Neo vs B737Max.
It was a horrible decision but since the narrow body market is essentially a giant futures market they probably had little choice given wait times for delivery.
@@ronparrish6666 the second prototype A319 is still flying for AC and they have the 2 of the oldest flying A320's in the world just behind South Africa's "Lift" C-GPWG and C-FPWE being delivered in Feb 1991 almost 34 years old
the vast majority of Air Canada's fleet form the 90's comes from Canadian, alot of the oldest a319/20s and in the past 767s were ex-Canadian. Canadian (and CP air) were the originators
As a long time customer of Air Canada and a hater of the 737max I am pleased to hear this change. I avoid Rouge as much as I completely avoid the 737max, so it works for me. I did love those a319,s and will be sorry to see those little rockets go away.
Why do you even hate the 737max? Also the Air Canada Rouge A320 and associated variants are uncomfortable, while older Air Canada mainline ones are more spacious and comfy although dated. This depends heavily on the airline rather than plane.
It does streamline MRO, and crew training for the mainline and Rouge airlines. So cost savings on that side. However, as stated in the video, it does limit Flexibility in Rouge, and the ability to tailor aircraft usage according to capacity. It really depends on what Air Canada plans to do with Rouge in the long run.
Interesting choice.. Honestly I think they should go with A220..My opinion its a much nicer more modern airplane than the MAX..Im not sure about capacity but given the option just my opinion flying in US I try to and am usually able to book on A220s and absolutely love them. Boeing really has some work to do and regain trust with not just passengers but their partners or customers.
Highly unlikely considering the A220s size, plus they have such few of them and they are already allocated towards shorter routes such as Toronto to Montreal. I imagine Rouge is not an extremely compelling option due to its limited legroom and interior space for customers and thus why they are switching to more modern and spacious aircraft.
Also Air Canada got a bunch of newer 10 year old A320s this year. My guess is AC Rouge gets the 737 MAX 8s and Air Canada will refurbish the AC Rouge A319s, A320s and A321s for the main land fleet
@@SubaruSakamak1 Max 8 got grounded all over the world for approximately 20 months after the Ethiopian 737 crash in 2019. Then the Max 9 got grounded in the United States for 20 days after the Alaska airline incident.
@@thecomedypilot5894 I'm pretty sure its one of the reason, if not the only one. The amount of revenue airlines lost during the grounding is no joke. You only understand this if you know how ground technicians work their a** off to minimize the time an airplane is staying on the ground.
Boeing has an order book that will keep them busy for 10 years, even if they never get another order. They'll come back from the incompetent management of the last 20 years.
They have to clean out the corporate boardrooms of all the shady stock manipulator types, who are only interested in dividends & PR - put engineers back in charge and focus on quality & safety above all.
I liked the comfort of the Max on mainline AC. I wonder if AC has finally had enough of Boeing and want an Airbus mainline fleet? The 777s are also aging. Maybe an A320/A350 order is in the works?
They already ordered the A321XLR. I can see them ordering standard A321NEO or LR, but not the smaller A320NEO because that variant is less efficient than a MAX8 in the current AC config. Maybe the mainline is betting on fewer planes with more capacity per plane. Their 777s still have some life left in them, they use the 1.5 gen of 777s
I did too, I actually thought they did a great job with the cabin and the IFE and everything worked great. Might not be as comfy as the older A320 seats but that’s just the thing with new seats. Air Canada Rouge A320 series cabins aren’t so comfortable.
Also I don’t see them replacing the 777 anytime soon, it’s still considered the flagship of the airline, although maybe the 787 might take that title. I don’t think they’re fed up with Boeing, they just want to split Airbus and Boeing between mainline and Rouge so crew training and maintenance is easier and cheaper.
So happy to hear this ... after my first and only flight on a 737 max 800 from vancouver to montreal, I swore off flying on one of these aircraft ever again: there was a line up for the bathroom for the entire 5 hours of the flight, and the flight attendant told me it was like that on every flight!!! Maybe I'll test customer experience standards on Air Canada one more time with this news.
Same thing on the transatlantic flights. The Max 8 is not ideal for long haul flights with its limited aisle widths and front and back toilets. The front toilets are off limits to economy pax when the curtains are drawn for business class and the line ups for the rear toilets are horrendous. Also, the actual toilets are ridiculously small - just awful.
I don’t mind this as long as the interiors don’t change too much in terms of legroom. The AC Rouge A320’s have very tight seats for some reason, although the older A320 series aircraft mainline aircraft have in the old layout are actually quite comfortable. The 737 Max 8 Air Canada has currently is pretty comfortable, they also have IFE so wonder what will happen because of that
It is an odd gap. Switching some A321XLR’s to A320neo’s could be their option but that might cramp their overseas expansion plans. Taking A321s from Rouge probably will happen and fill in the gap a little. I wouldn’t be surprised by an A320neo order soon. It could be they’re counting on an A220-500 development although I can’t imagine that will be available to completely fill in the gap in 2-3 years. I’m curious to see what happens if anything. Air France has the same gap issue too and they’ve done nothing to fill it in yet. They’re pushing for the A220-500.
The A220s will fill the gap in the domestic market. If Air Canada regularly puts A321XLRs on domestic routes, it'll be a waste. And I agree with your point that AC is holding out on the development of the A220-500.
@ XLR’s domestically would be a waste. I did read once they do want to send them from YYZ/YUL to LAX/SFO because of their premium cabins. It could also be a lot of MAX size routes will just move over to Rouge.
I feel like Air Canada is preparing to order the A320. Air Canada still operates a lot of narrow-body routes, and there is no reason for them to give up these routes. Since they have transferred all the Boeing 737 Max, they are most likely preparing to supplement them with the new A320 neo.
This makes sense because if 737 Max 8s swap to the Rouge Fleet but all the old A320 and A321 on both the Air Canada Fleet and Rouge Fleet need to replace them with the A320neo and A321neo and A321neoXLR and retire the older aircrafts
They also have a significant number of Airbus A220 on order, 200 and 300. In terms of capacity particularly the 300 version offers similar capacity to the max
@@orion45the engines are also used by the Embraer E2 and a lot of A320neo’s so I don’t think it will be much of an issue, the engine issues seemed to die down in frequency
The 737 is a frankenplane. It started out as a sleek, sharp-looking little regional jet, and they just kept on stretching it, slapping more and more crap on it, bending things to fit bigger and bigger engines, culminating in two of them crashing themselves - all to keep from having to design a modern plane. It's a 60-year-old design at its heart. It takes a lot of runway and needs to go damn near supersonic to get off the ground, and then lumbers like an old pickup truck up to cruising altitude. It's loud and uncomfortable, and some airlines even fly those heaps all the way across the US - a plane that was made for Denver to St. Louis. It was a great plane... in 1967.
737s are what they used to fly you between the islands in Hawaii. Now they fly you all the way *to* Hawaii on a 737. That used to be a 747 or DC-10. My only two flights on a 737-MAX were similarly long flights California -> Montreal and Toronto -> California, on Air Canada and Westjet. I didn't observe anything noteworthy, except that both were crazy crowded. Zero legroom, center seats, screaming kids, having to gate-check carry-on luggage, etc.
I'm an Airbus fan but that statement is a little disingenuous. Issues with the Max notwithstanding, previous versions of the B737 have proven to be reliable, comfortable workhorses. They are safe, and they are used economically for short and medium haul routes all over the world. Let's not forget the B737 uses the same fuselage dimensions of the B707, B727 and B757 which are/were used for longer routes - the 737 is a very versatile aircraft and competes well with the A320 family even though it's been around for almost 60 years in one form or another. Yes, the Max has well-documented issues and no need to rehash all of those but unfortunately the A320neo family isn't perfect either, although there have been no fatal crashes. Let's hope neither type has any further incidents.
I used to fly to work on a 737-200 combi with the gravel kit. I enjoyed every flight. Especially in the-30°C winter and those cigar engines just shredding air molecules! Impressive birds! 🛫😁
Not sure about the all-Airbus fleet, the widebody boeing jets have way less issues. 787, 777 (hell even the 767 in the near future and cargo) are still quite new. We will have to see what they replace the A330-300 with, as those are starting to get up there. 777x is my guess, they wouldve ordered the a350 if they weren't considering the new 777
Doubt it. The 777 is the flagship, to be succeeded by the 787. Air Canada haven’t had 737NG for a long time because they took over Canadian Airlines A320’s and it was just easier to keep loyal to Airbus for narrow bodies for that time period.
Si is AC phasing out the 737Max from their main fleet and replacing with Air Bus? Does this decision have anything to do with the Max's reputation or Boeing's failing reputation?
Probably not really, but maybe a little. This will help them create fleet commonality if they use airbus narrow bodies and boeing wide bodies for the mainline fleet. Also, they got incoming a321xlrs to cover for the loss of 737s on the main fleet.
not at all... in our new contract we asked for no type rating to be shared with mainline and rouge... its makes sense for pilot and its also a more profitable model for AC
Seems like their thinking was: "it works for the Southwest and Ryanair business models." Perhaps that's the direction they're going with rouge, with premium and service focus on the mainline airline. I'm also thinking they could alter the A321XLR order. But they're just my thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.
Canada always has this saga of "new budget air line makes a splash ---> budget airline goes bankrupt after 5-10 years". That includes budget vacation airlines like Air Transat and Sun Wing; they either go under or get bought up by the big two. AC and West Jet are the only two players of consequence. Porter is trying to make the Big 2 into the Big 3, but they are still a niche operator and AC and WJ will do what they usually do - run their discount proxy services (Rouge, Swoop) at a relative loss to out-compete the new entrant, until Porter runs out of cash and dies. The only reason WJ survived AC's onslaught was that inherent need in Canada for a not-AC option to keep AC honest.
That’s a shame cause inside they’re such an upgrade over the A320s they currently fly. Big bins, 21st-century IFE and the excellent low noise levels of the MAX. Maybe this is a sign that an A220-500 is just on the horizon and AC will gets its checkbook ready.
The A220 is an Airbus Canada plane. This means that any investment is a joint one between Airbus (75%) and Québec (25%). Québec and Airbus keep postponing the year when Québec will sell its shares to Airbus (goal is for Québec to recuperate all the billions in sunk into project, a value which was halved when half of project was DONATED to Airbus. I think 2030 is the current target for Airbus to buy QC's shares and until that time, don't expect any aircraft launch. They have yet to increase production levels of the 220-100 and 220-300 to make the Airbus Canada LLP profitable.
@@jfmezei Theyre trying to increase production levels though. They want to produce 14/month by 2026. Theyve just been struggling with supply chain and strikes the past couple years when trying to increase.
@@nickskier1 They still have to take the winglets down because the paint hall was built for CRJ and the A220 doesn't fit with full wings. It's going to be a big challenge to ramp up production.
Say what you will about the old A320’s and how they’re dated especially with the slow IFE, but the seats are by far the most comfortable and are wide. New aircraft seats just are too stiff nowadays. The 737 Max cabin is very nice though.
@@dehavillandcanadatwinotter9621 Air Canada does not want coach to be comfortable. They are on a mission to ruin travel for the 200 coach passengers to force 20 to pay for premium economy. If the old 320 seats are still comfortable, dont worry, when the planes get refurbished AC will change that. They'll probably put the narrower 737 seats to make wider aisle.
You can add this to the conversion. On a recent Air Canada flight from SFO to YVR. It was on a recently acquired of 5 A321's from another airline. The flight attentant apologized as the interiors hadn't been upgraded yet. Is this the start of going back to the A320's over the Max 8?
This, i had the exact same experience. I think they are trying to go all airbus on the mainline as its wider better and more comfortable. The max in rouge cabins will probably go to the basic set ups with no IFE and somewhat like flair. With where the max will fly i thin kthey have also better servicibility on the 37
If the Max does go over to Rouge it would be nice to keep the IFE as a bonus for those passengers. That A320 I referred to had no IFE, along with the smaller overhead storage. Once those 5 aircraft are upgraded with the larger overhead bins, lighting and seats with IFE. It will be the same as their Max 8's which I flown on several times with no hesitation.
@@SU95Xit has less to do with being wider, better or comfortable. Actually the 737 Max’s Air Canada has are very nice in terms of their cabin and seats. It has more to do with keeping the fleet consistent to help make crew training and maintenance simpler and cheaper.
Air Canada also has aging 777s do you think they might phase out those for possibly a350s since besides the 777 the largest plane they have is the a330 300 and the 787-10s on the way. But neither of those could replace the 777-300 only the 200
737Max are being replaced with A220s.. the 737s on mainline never flew at capacity so only makes sense to move them to Rouge and use the slightly smaller and cheaper to operate A220 on the old 737 routes.
I never understood why they went with the type in the first place. They had the A320 family already, the next logical step is to go for the NEO. Why add a brand new fleet type....
Did Air Canada have a bunch of older 737-800/900 planes they were also using? If they went from having zero 737 to 40 737 Max, that's a lot of pilot retraining. Or hiring new pilots that are 737 certified but might not be airbus certified. Complicates things from a maintenance perspective as well.
@@marcbilodeau6927 I love AC's A220 because of the seat width and layout. Having flown on both types, the 737 Max has more preferred seats than the A220. But they both have the same amount of legroom in the standard seats.
I like the idea but I don’t think they should move all of them to Rouge. I feel like 40 is a lot for Rouge. I’d put most of them to Rouge but not all. I’d keep some with the mainline fleet. This may end up being the case idk
There is a clause in the new AC Pilot contract that the company cannot operate the same aircraft type at both Mainline and Rouge. That's why this is happening at all. So it's all or nothing for the 737
AC will move the younger 321s from Rouge back to AC. I bet they will also convert more routes/flights within Canada to "Rouge" as well, they already do use Rouge-branded planes randomly on quite a few domestic routes and have for a long time.
Rouge’s domestic destinations are not random. They go to leisure destinations, places like Kelowna and Charlottetown and seasonally elsewhere in the maritimes.
One possibility is that Airbus will discontinue the production of the A-220- 100 and replace it with the 500 variant. The 100 variant is not popular. Only 67 units have been delivered. The current backlog has only 30 A-220 100 while the 300 variant has 489 on order.
This means that Air Canada has no intention of getting rid of Rouge, but in light of their announcement to start charging passengers for Carry-on luggage, there will be nothing to separate an Air Canada basic economy passenger from a Rouge customer. These don't sound like very clever moves. However it may be a smart move to have fleet commonality in narrowbody and fleet commonality in widebody fleets, which means that they will operate Airbus narrowbody aircraft and Boeing widebody aircraft, similar to Jet Star.
the max's are moving to rouge because our new contracts prohibits the same aircraft rating type to fly for both rouge and mainline.... heavies will remain both airbus and Boeing with new big order rumoured to be the airbus a350 after the Boeing 787-10's get delivered
@@sainnt not sure what you mean.... the only aircraft operating for rouge will be the 737 MAX family (currently only -8 but we have been told that we will likely acquire -10 & -9 to increase capacity) all a320 aircraft will leave rouge... a220's are only operated by mainline AC
@@ramennoodles2040 Ok. What I'm wondering is what aircraft Air Canada will use to fill the gap between the A220 and their widebody fleet. The only option will be the A320 series.
Air Canada might as well make all their domestic routes Rouge with the exception of major transcontinental routes such as Vancouver-Toronto/Montreal/Newark, San Francisco/Los Angeles-Toronto/Montreal and the odd repositioning flight for widebodies. The front cabin on Rouge would be sold as Premium Economy.
Initially I was thinking that the A321XLR order was to be used by both mainline and Rouge for thinner transatlantic routes. Now it seems that the 737MAX is going to do that for Rouge only. Looks like Rouge European destinations appear to be back.
As someone who works under contract for them, I agree. I've never seen a flagship airline blatantly scam passengers, make repeated poor management decision after poor management decision, and cost cut like Air Canada does. I've seen it first-hand working as a gate agent. It's honestly disgusting. They're a fraud airline and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a major lawsuit for some idiotic thing they do in the next few years.
My guess would be that they’re going to replace the 737 Max in the Mainline Fleet with the A320NEO and A321NEO. It would make since given they already operate the A320CEO Family and have the A321XLR incoming.
@@StormFanatic210 they will most likely use the A321NEO, LR, and XLR. But they are unlikely to use the A320NEO. They already have the MAX8 and it is more efficient than the A320NEO
Exciting news for Rouge and a lot more announcements to come starting next year! 🙌🏼🇨🇦 Rouge will be growing its Max fleet size and another aircraft type to join the Rouge family. Rouge will be how it was pre-pandemic and growing more to live up to the leisure title.
I don't think this is something that they wanted. I think, and I could be wrong, that there was certification issues. Such as that Rouge and AC could not have common fleet types. Much like Canada's own Porter Airlines. When they started jet operations with the 195-E2 jets, Transport Canada made them change their callsign as each fleet was under a different certificate. The Jet's fly with callsign, Porter### and the props fly as DashPort###.
AC will have to lease a320neos to fill the gap. Good luck with that as demand for leasing outweighs supply. Ordering new neos? Wait in line for over 6 years.
I am.shocked by this decision.i thought AC was on its way to be an all Boeing aircraft on its mainline operations. On the other ens of the spectrum i wonder what they will do on their 777LRs which they use on YYZ/YVR to SYD and YYZ/DEL.
Why would anyone want Boeing MAX on a reputable airline? Boeing MAX is at most for low cost carriers, but nothing else. At least until the next Boeing falls out of the sky due to missing documentation, failed production audits, faulty parts installed or even outright missing parts. And let's not forget, this is a Canadian airline, the country that wasn't very happy about what Boeing did.
Sounds like AC is consolidating all A321s under the AC banner; just looking at the ages of the planes, the A319s and A320s mentioned might end up sold off one by one as they age out first. The move of all 737 Max 8's to Rouge makes some sense in the context of whether they believe Boeing is actually capable of delivering those orders on time (and on-quality) or will continue to fumble any Max-related activities. If they think anything "Max" is a higher risk, then the decision can be seen as a move to place all that risk upon their Rouge operations rather than their mainline ones.
It has to do with the most recent pilots union contract, mainline and rouge can no longer share aircraft types, so in order to put the A320-series together, the 737 Max has to be reassigned.
and rouge was such a good airline before now... oh well becoming the single most dangerous canadian airline to fly (but aircraft safety averaged across fleet fleet size not taken into account) makes deciding which Canadian airline to fly easy and is quickly making Porter the only viable option
Very interesting. Didn’t know that Air Canada’s mainline a320/21 series was so old. Yes, what exactly will they do to cover for their missing aircraft? Surely they will go Airbus for their mainline fleet but unless they’ve got something up their sleeve the deliveries would be quite far off. Good for Rouge, I guess…
Since the scandalous crashes, I still avoid all B737 flights. I still feel uneasy. On the other hand, the old A319 and A320 on AC are so dated and uncomfortable.
The fear of safety is irrational, the 737 Max issues have been solved and also there hasn’t been a major crash in North America since 2009, which was pilot error. You’re right the A320’s are generally old in the fleet as they were inherited orders from defunct Canadian airlines, but their seats are more comfortable imo
I guess Air Canada is preparing to be the launch customer of the new A220-500 for the 140-180 seat capacity segment and may convert some of the A220-300 to A220-500.
Lots of people, including myself, are avoiding flying on the MAX. I never book a flight serviced by a MAX. Flew on a MAX twice as a result of re-routing after a flight cancellation. I'm sure that AC has noticed that the MAX is not the client's choice. The Rouge clients are different (unless you booked an AC flight that was handed-off to Rouge). Most of Rouge's flights are aimed to sun seekers. Most Rouge passengers don't care about the type of aircraft, as long as it bings them to destination. I agree with several other comments that AC is probably hoping for the A-200-500. But even though Airbus would announce it in a near future, we would be at least 4 to 6 years away from the inaugural flight. And Airbus is still unable to fill all the vacant positions to increase production of the A-220 in Mirabel. And I am not sure if the Pratt & Whitney PW1500G Turbofan engines would be powerful enough for the 500 variant
Keep in mind that once the fleet swap is done, AC mainline will have 19 A320ceos. Fins 235-242, 417-422, and 5 from Rouge (243-247). My guess is that the rest of the older A320s and all A319s will be retired. Manline already took one out I think (C-FYJI).
separate company on the paper, better for getting more government tax break, better for keeping the OTP stats on their mainline operation, and selling discount tickets and packages without involving their cross continent international flights.
It can help reduce costs for both the airline and passengers, it’s really meant as a “leisure airline” like Air Transat, Sunwing or those airlines where a lot of their flights are to tropical vacation destinations. But it’s kind of weird because they became kind of like Swoop, more of a budget airline offering Canadian domestic routes as well.
Although AC is most likely making room for the A321XLR, I wouldn't put it past them to order a few A220s, too. Obviously, AC put its MAXs on both domestic and international routes. However, in my opinion, if they replace them with only XLRs, a good chunk of those new planes won't be put to their intended use (thin demand, long-haul routes). In other words, AC will waste the A321XLR's potential if they regularly place them on domestic routes like YYZ-YYC and YYZ-YVR, routes that the A220 is meant to serve. While the MAX is a more flexible aircraft, in my opinion, both the A321XLR and A220 objectively outperform the MAX. However, those two planes are meant for two completely different market segments, and Airbus doesn't currently a plane that is a hybrid of the two. And with the MAXs gone, AC will need a plane that can fill the gap in the domestic market, which, again, is where the A220 comes in. Anyway, that's my opinion. Let me know your thoughts below.
As a tall person, Rouge is terrible. If it was at least cheaper and I had the option of booking it OR mainline AC, it would be fine. But AC usually runs Rouge-only routes so you don’t even have the choice. And the fares are pretty much the same as what you would pay on mainline AC. So it basically comes down to AC forcing you into a less comfortable plane at the same cost.
Air Canada is using 737 Max on intercontinental flights right now. I flew between London nd Halifax few times in those planes. Once they are moved to its subsidiary, let’s see which plane Air Canada will be using to replace Boeing 737 Max on those routes.
Having flown Air Canada Rouge and firmly stating that I would NEVER fly with them again, I guess I will never fly on Air Canada's 737 MAX planes. That being said, I am a WestJet fan and would fly them whenever I can as opposed to flying Air Canada.
Flew once on an AC Max and the seat was hard as a rock. I was twisting and turning in the seat and by the end of the flight, my bottom hurt. Never again.
All the Rouge Airbuses are even worse. At least the 737 Max cabins are nice and the IFE and seat material is nice and modern. I didn’t feel too uncomfortable on them.
They'll still use the Rouge 737's on domestic routes. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have insider information that Airbus is going to produce an A220-500. And they will order that as a gap filler between the A220-300 and the A321.
This saddens me alot! I love Air Canada's MAX, and for a person who HATES Rouge!! This means we'll be losing the nice interior. Let's just hope the A 321 retro fit is as nice as the MAX
This may be an odd one - but for me it is the toilets. On the latest A320 in BA service they have made the toilets so small that whichever way you enter you may have to maintain 😂 and i'm not especially large. The crew also seem to hate the plane as the loo has taken up hlf the galley space - sure they squeeze an extra row but gosh it's an odd experience going for a 'comfort break' on a neo.
Being a Canadian we know too well what will happen....AC will screw over smaller centres by cutting service and raising fares. If competition moves in the will raise service and cut fares until they have driven the late comer out,, then they will return to lousy service and high prices. The government is fine with this...AC has never ever been dealt with by "regulators" for their tactics.
@@gpaull2The government of Canada sold it’s stake last week at a huge profit. Let’s not forget the government of Canada as well as the Quebec government have been given $$ BILLIONS $$ to the Beaudoin family Bombardier over the last 20 years.
@@a.a.p1952 Would love to but they don't fly out of North Bay...they did until AC cut rates so low that Porter left, then our flights got reduced by 75% and the cost doubled.
With the MAX's moved to Rouge, AC won't have any suitable aircraft for not-as-popular long haul flights until the A321XLR gets delivered to them in 2025
After 50 years, still so many service bulletin for B737. Nothing right about these. After 50 years, people still find flaws in this plane that could be catastrophic. Do you see service bulletin on A320?
A220 also provide similar range with A320, thus Air Canada can use it for thinner route. While A321 XLR have flexibility for mid thicker routes and longer range thin routes. Don't think they need A320 neo, as there's potentially no gap with their fleet set up.
On the surface, this doesn't appear to make much sense. I think what it means is that more Rouge flights will be replacing what are today mainline flights. Using the MAX 8's to shave a couple dollars of the cost of Rouge fares is hardly worth the effort considering there is really no such thing as a low cost carrier in Canada.
Seems like Air Canada is maybe looking to shift most of their domestic operations to Rogue and focus the mainline on long haul oeprations, and that is mostly due to Canada's broken airport system where domestic flight slots cost a fortune and why Canadian domestic flights are so expensive. It's the main reason why Canadians usually travel abroad vs traveling within Canada.
They'll probably expand Rouge operations into routes that are currently being handled by mainline. Unfortunate, as Rouge cabins are somewhat uncomfortable by comparison. Further evidence though that Boeing continues to be in a world of hurt.
737 max needed to be a mostly carefully thinking and considering to being operated for 737 max bad reputation and why airliners stills orders 737 max and moving to other models likes a320 neo?
I'm Canadian. Rouge is not just a leisure airline. AC has Rouge flying a lot of domestic routes, too. Very often, you will book a ticket on AC, only for the flight to be changed to "operated by Rouge" a few days before departure. In my opinion, this is done on purpose, so AC can charge extraordinarily high prices, only to then pull a bait on switch on customers. Rouge aircraft have more rows and practically non existent legroom.
Very true. Rouge in. AC out.
That got me confused too, because I definitely flew Rouge many times on domestic routes
Agreed! I have always contested the term "low cost," as I have yet to see a difference in fares, be it a dollar value or by Aeroplan points. Our regular route to St. Lucia was switched to Rouge many years back. Almost always an archaic A319, with zero legroom, extremely uncomfortable seating and sub par service. And guess what it costs? The same as AC proper. Rouge is and always will be a scam.
No legroom? Sounds perfect for the 737max!
No entertainment system
1. It modernized Rouge's fleet on paper 2. It makes maintenance easier because one airframe and its common 3. Air Canda can move the Rogue 321's into their mainline fleet. 4. Air Canda can take the Rouge 767's out of the boneyard to fill in the gaps until their other 55 aircraft on order come in. Assessment: Smart decision
Also allows for more consistency with their product
bravo sir
maintenance of aircanada mainline and rouge are all done by the same maintenance department.
@@vapenaysh5087 In that case,the move might be related to two things: it could give AC time to ponder their next purchase, waiting to see where the manufacturers will be a bit down the line; it could also make it slightly more appealing for a potential buyer to take over Rouge, or its assets, should the low-cost airline be in as much trouble as many others.
@@vapenaysh5087 yes but the books are different, so the numbers are separated. They can allocate less money for rouge maintenance, allowing them to move money on paper somewhere else. These are mostly fiscal changes.
Plane swap between Rouge and Air Canada is my guess
Rouge gets the 737 Maxes and Air Canada gets the A321s with them retiring the A319s
My hunch is that the 3 year timeline gives Air Canada time to wait a bit and see the state of manufacturing before they need to make a decision. Letting the supply chain issues sort out for both makers and see what happens next between Boeing and Airbus.
agreed it also gives time for airbus to decide if they are going to stretch the a220 as they are also looking pondering to do a new narrow body to beat Boeing to it.
They're already actively taking Rouge A321s over to mainline
Also possible accounting gimmicks😉
I feel like Air Canada is preparing to order the A320. Air Canada still operates a lot of narrow-body routes, and there is no reason for them to give up these routes. Since they have transferred all the Boeing 737 Max, they are most likely preparing to supplement them with the new A320 neo.
@David-XWB makes total sense to me. They just recently got 6 second hand A320 from Alaska Airlines. I doubt they're keeping them only for a couple of years since these planes aren't that old either. Also, AC invested in an extensive avionics upgrade for their Airbus Fleet
The only reason this is happening is that it was negotiated in the AC pilots' new contract. There is a clause that AC cannot operate the same aircraft type at both Mainline and Rouge. So, the decision has been made to move the 737 to Rouge and all the airbus 32x fleet back to mainline.
Thereby opening up the NEO’s and XLR’s for mainline, eh?
Interesting
They didn’t really have a choice. This was negotiated on in the new pilot contract that took effect recently. Mainline and Rouge aren’t allowed to operate the same aircraft (by type rating)
I think many people will get ripped off from buying tickets that will be switched from AC mainline to Rouge due to "unavoidable aircraft availability" issues. They already do it, but now it'll get worse.
There's a reason that the verb "rouged" [to be screwed over] has entered the Canadian vocabulary.
Incoming A220-500 announcement with AC as the launch operator?
That's an intriguing possibility - unfortunately I don't think it the most likely, but I can hope!
I doubt that Airbus would be keen. The aircraft is just too different from the rest of its products.
Air Canada was one of the first major customers of Airbus narrow body A320 jets in late 1980s to early 1990s. When this first batch of narrow bodies were due for replacement, Air Canada standardized on Boeing 737Max. It seems it is having a second thought on this decision, likely due to changing fortunes of A320Neo vs B737Max.
Not a great choice in my opinion. I would prefer not flying on any Boeing planes.
@@iany2448 they actually have a Canadian Air Lines 320 in the Rouge fleet still flying from many years ago
It was a horrible decision but since the narrow body market is essentially a giant futures market they probably had little choice given wait times for delivery.
@@ronparrish6666 the second prototype A319 is still flying for AC and they have the 2 of the oldest flying A320's in the world just behind South Africa's "Lift" C-GPWG and C-FPWE being delivered in Feb 1991 almost 34 years old
the vast majority of Air Canada's fleet form the 90's comes from Canadian, alot of the oldest a319/20s and in the past 767s were ex-Canadian. Canadian (and CP air) were the originators
As a long time customer of Air Canada and a hater of the 737max I am pleased to hear this change. I avoid Rouge as much as I completely avoid the 737max, so it works for me. I did love those a319,s and will be sorry to see those little rockets go away.
Why do you even hate the 737max? Also the Air Canada Rouge A320 and associated variants are uncomfortable, while older Air Canada mainline ones are more spacious and comfy although dated. This depends heavily on the airline rather than plane.
It does streamline MRO, and crew training for the mainline and Rouge airlines. So cost savings on that side. However, as stated in the video, it does limit Flexibility in Rouge, and the ability to tailor aircraft usage according to capacity. It really depends on what Air Canada plans to do with Rouge in the long run.
Interesting choice.. Honestly I think they should go with A220..My opinion its a much nicer more modern airplane than the MAX..Im not sure about capacity but given the option just my opinion flying in US I try to and am usually able to book on A220s and absolutely love them. Boeing really has some work to do and regain trust with not just passengers but their partners or customers.
Highly unlikely considering the A220s size, plus they have such few of them and they are already allocated towards shorter routes such as Toronto to Montreal. I imagine Rouge is not an extremely compelling option due to its limited legroom and interior space for customers and thus why they are switching to more modern and spacious aircraft.
Imagine if AC started using A220s on certain transatlantic flights
What abt the transatlantic flights, like YHZ to LHR the xlrs aren’t gonna come till 2025, and I don’t think air canada will operate them in YHZ
@@EuropeanRailfanAlt Knowing AC, be patient.
@@dagoose. Probably an A321 for the time being
Would love this to be the beginning of the A220-500 story. I love the type! Time will tell I guess.
Also Air Canada got a bunch of newer 10 year old A320s this year. My guess is AC Rouge gets the 737 MAX 8s and Air Canada will refurbish the AC Rouge A319s, A320s and A321s for the main land fleet
Honestly a very interesting decision
I say its a good decision. The number of time this plane is getting grounded is just too much.
@@miki_9034 The max 8 didn't get grounded
@@SubaruSakamak1 Max 8 got grounded all over the world for approximately 20 months after the Ethiopian 737 crash in 2019. Then the Max 9 got grounded in the United States for 20 days after the Alaska airline incident.
@@miki_9034 i know that but that was 5 years ago
@@thecomedypilot5894 I'm pretty sure its one of the reason, if not the only one. The amount of revenue airlines lost during the grounding is no joke. You only understand this if you know how ground technicians work their a** off to minimize the time an airplane is staying on the ground.
Boeing had such an excellent reputation that I wish they can live up to that in the coming years by improving their next new models!
Uh, what are the "new" models? The 1966 circa 737MAX?!
@@robytar The first Max was delivered in 2017. Using your logic, the A321 is 40 years old.
Boeing has an order book that will keep them busy for 10 years, even if they never get another order. They'll come back from the incompetent management of the last 20 years.
They have to clean out the corporate boardrooms of all the shady stock manipulator types, who are only interested in dividends & PR - put engineers back in charge and focus on quality & safety above all.
@ excellent!
I liked the comfort of the Max on mainline AC. I wonder if AC has finally had enough of Boeing and want an Airbus mainline fleet? The 777s are also aging. Maybe an A320/A350 order is in the works?
They already ordered the A321XLR. I can see them ordering standard A321NEO or LR, but not the smaller A320NEO because that variant is less efficient than a MAX8 in the current AC config. Maybe the mainline is betting on fewer planes with more capacity per plane. Their 777s still have some life left in them, they use the 1.5 gen of 777s
I did too, I actually thought they did a great job with the cabin and the IFE and everything worked great. Might not be as comfy as the older A320 seats but that’s just the thing with new seats. Air Canada Rouge A320 series cabins aren’t so comfortable.
Also I don’t see them replacing the 777 anytime soon, it’s still considered the flagship of the airline, although maybe the 787 might take that title. I don’t think they’re fed up with Boeing, they just want to split Airbus and Boeing between mainline and Rouge so crew training and maintenance is easier and cheaper.
So happy to hear this ... after my first and only flight on a 737 max 800 from vancouver to montreal, I swore off flying on one of these aircraft ever again: there was a line up for the bathroom for the entire 5 hours of the flight, and the flight attendant told me it was like that on every flight!!! Maybe I'll test customer experience standards on Air Canada one more time with this news.
Same thing on the transatlantic flights. The Max 8 is not ideal for long haul flights with its limited aisle widths and front and back toilets. The front toilets are off limits to economy pax when the curtains are drawn for business class and the line ups for the rear toilets are horrendous. Also, the actual toilets are ridiculously small - just awful.
Get used to it, every plane will have small lavs if they don't already. When the A320s get their new cabin they will be the same, just 1 foot wider.
An interesting development. Thanks for bringing this analysis to your viewers/readers.
I don’t mind this as long as the interiors don’t change too much in terms of legroom. The AC Rouge A320’s have very tight seats for some reason, although the older A320 series aircraft mainline aircraft have in the old layout are actually quite comfortable. The 737 Max 8 Air Canada has currently is pretty comfortable, they also have IFE so wonder what will happen because of that
Rouge intentionally offers less legroom so they can get a few more passengers in and keep fares on leisure destinations lower.
Which aircraft will do the Halifax to London route ?
Probably a321xlr
@ I doubt it as it’ll be a waste of range…. The A319 did this previously
Probably the a220
I’ve definitely seen the Max 8 come in to LHR from Canada.
Doesn’t need an XLR, a regular 321 can do it easily. Jet Blue do it.
@@malvinuku7878could be the 767s, they’re returning to service, and this route used to be operated by a 767
Maybe they intend to move the youngest a321s to its main line fleet. but haven't made that choice public yet.
It is an odd gap. Switching some A321XLR’s to A320neo’s could be their option but that might cramp their overseas expansion plans. Taking A321s from Rouge probably will happen and fill in the gap a little. I wouldn’t be surprised by an A320neo order soon. It could be they’re counting on an A220-500 development although I can’t imagine that will be available to completely fill in the gap in 2-3 years. I’m curious to see what happens if anything. Air France has the same gap issue too and they’ve done nothing to fill it in yet. They’re pushing for the A220-500.
The A220s will fill the gap in the domestic market. If Air Canada regularly puts A321XLRs on domestic routes, it'll be a waste. And I agree with your point that AC is holding out on the development of the A220-500.
@ XLR’s domestically would be a waste. I did read once they do want to send them from YYZ/YUL to LAX/SFO because of their premium cabins. It could also be a lot of MAX size routes will just move over to Rouge.
I feel like Air Canada is preparing to order the A320. Air Canada still operates a lot of narrow-body routes, and there is no reason for them to give up these routes. Since they have transferred all the Boeing 737 Max, they are most likely preparing to supplement them with the new A320 neo.
They already have orders for the A321XLR
Either that or the A220. I strongly believe that they are holding out on the development of the A220-500.
They already have
So are they gonna get the neos?
Will AC swap the planes?Otherwise even more delays...Salary impact?
It was part of the latest contract they signed with the union, they have to do this
@orion45 ok.thx for info.appreciated
This makes sense because if 737 Max 8s swap to the Rouge Fleet but all the old A320 and A321 on both the Air Canada Fleet and Rouge Fleet need to replace them with the A320neo and A321neo and A321neoXLR and retire the older aircrafts
They also have a significant number of Airbus A220 on order, 200 and 300. In terms of capacity particularly the 300 version offers similar capacity to the max
They should buy as many as possible of these. Best narrow body passenger jet right now
A220-300 is 137 seats, the Max is 167 seats for air canada
@@dannysamimi954 great jet, crap engines. Some airlines have already given up on the A220 simply due to the engine reliability issues.
@@orion45the engines are also used by the Embraer E2 and a lot of A320neo’s so I don’t think it will be much of an issue, the engine issues seemed to die down in frequency
The 737 is a frankenplane. It started out as a sleek, sharp-looking little regional jet, and they just kept on stretching it, slapping more and more crap on it, bending things to fit bigger and bigger engines, culminating in two of them crashing themselves - all to keep from having to design a modern plane. It's a 60-year-old design at its heart. It takes a lot of runway and needs to go damn near supersonic to get off the ground, and then lumbers like an old pickup truck up to cruising altitude. It's loud and uncomfortable, and some airlines even fly those heaps all the way across the US - a plane that was made for Denver to St. Louis. It was a great plane... in 1967.
737s are what they used to fly you between the islands in Hawaii. Now they fly you all the way *to* Hawaii on a 737. That used to be a 747 or DC-10.
My only two flights on a 737-MAX were similarly long flights California -> Montreal and Toronto -> California, on Air Canada and Westjet. I didn't observe anything noteworthy, except that both were crazy crowded. Zero legroom, center seats, screaming kids, having to gate-check carry-on luggage, etc.
@@mattbartley2843 Island hoppers, exactly. They even had a gravel kit for unpaved runways early on. They were great for what they were made for.
I'm an Airbus fan but that statement is a little disingenuous. Issues with the Max notwithstanding, previous versions of the B737 have proven to be reliable, comfortable workhorses. They are safe, and they are used economically for short and medium haul routes all over the world. Let's not forget the B737 uses the same fuselage dimensions of the B707, B727 and B757 which are/were used for longer routes - the 737 is a very versatile aircraft and competes well with the A320 family even though it's been around for almost 60 years in one form or another. Yes, the Max has well-documented issues and no need to rehash all of those but unfortunately the A320neo family isn't perfect either, although there have been no fatal crashes. Let's hope neither type has any further incidents.
I used to fly to work on a 737-200 combi with the gravel kit. I enjoyed every flight. Especially in the-30°C winter and those cigar engines just shredding air molecules! Impressive birds! 🛫😁
I flew on a Max in 2018 when they were still compromised a few months before the first accident. 😬
Smart decision. I'm a former AC Captain. I think AC is gradually going to move to an all-Airbus fleet.
Same, retired. Airbus = Mercedez, Boeing = GM.
@@aluet30 No. Airbus = Toyota, Boeing = BMW
Not sure about the all-Airbus fleet, the widebody boeing jets have way less issues. 787, 777 (hell even the 767 in the near future and cargo) are still quite new. We will have to see what they replace the A330-300 with, as those are starting to get up there. 777x is my guess, they wouldve ordered the a350 if they weren't considering the new 777
@@orion45 Yeah you're probably right.
Doubt it. The 777 is the flagship, to be succeeded by the 787. Air Canada haven’t had 737NG for a long time because they took over Canadian Airlines A320’s and it was just easier to keep loyal to Airbus for narrow bodies for that time period.
Si is AC phasing out the 737Max from their main fleet and replacing with Air Bus? Does this decision have anything to do with the Max's reputation or Boeing's failing reputation?
Probably not really, but maybe a little. This will help them create fleet commonality if they use airbus narrow bodies and boeing wide bodies for the mainline fleet. Also, they got incoming a321xlrs to cover for the loss of 737s on the main fleet.
not at all... in our new contract we asked for no type rating to be shared with mainline and rouge... its makes sense for pilot and its also a more profitable model for AC
Seems like their thinking was: "it works for the Southwest and Ryanair business models."
Perhaps that's the direction they're going with rouge, with premium and service focus on the mainline airline. I'm also thinking they could alter the A321XLR order. But they're just my thoughts. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.
Canada always has this saga of "new budget air line makes a splash ---> budget airline goes bankrupt after 5-10 years". That includes budget vacation airlines like Air Transat and Sun Wing; they either go under or get bought up by the big two.
AC and West Jet are the only two players of consequence. Porter is trying to make the Big 2 into the Big 3, but they are still a niche operator and AC and WJ will do what they usually do - run their discount proxy services (Rouge, Swoop) at a relative loss to out-compete the new entrant, until Porter runs out of cash and dies.
The only reason WJ survived AC's onslaught was that inherent need in Canada for a not-AC option to keep AC honest.
That’s a shame cause inside they’re such an upgrade over the A320s they currently fly. Big bins, 21st-century IFE and the excellent low noise levels of the MAX. Maybe this is a sign that an A220-500 is just on the horizon and AC will gets its checkbook ready.
The A220 is an Airbus Canada plane. This means that any investment is a joint one between Airbus (75%) and Québec (25%). Québec and Airbus keep postponing the year when Québec will sell its shares to Airbus (goal is for Québec to recuperate all the billions in sunk into project, a value which was halved when half of project was DONATED to Airbus. I think 2030 is the current target for Airbus to buy QC's shares and until that time, don't expect any aircraft launch. They have yet to increase production levels of the 220-100 and 220-300 to make the Airbus Canada LLP profitable.
@@jfmezei Theyre trying to increase production levels though. They want to produce 14/month by 2026. Theyve just been struggling with supply chain and strikes the past couple years when trying to increase.
@@nickskier1 They still have to take the winglets down because the paint hall was built for CRJ and the A220 doesn't fit with full wings. It's going to be a big challenge to ramp up production.
Say what you will about the old A320’s and how they’re dated especially with the slow IFE, but the seats are by far the most comfortable and are wide. New aircraft seats just are too stiff nowadays. The 737 Max cabin is very nice though.
@@dehavillandcanadatwinotter9621 Air Canada does not want coach to be comfortable. They are on a mission to ruin travel for the 200 coach passengers to force 20 to pay for premium economy. If the old 320 seats are still comfortable, dont worry, when the planes get refurbished AC will change that. They'll probably put the narrower 737 seats to make wider aisle.
You can add this to the conversion. On a recent Air Canada flight from SFO to YVR. It was on a recently acquired of 5
A321's from another airline. The flight attentant apologized as the interiors hadn't been upgraded yet. Is this the start of going back to the A320's over the Max 8?
This, i had the exact same experience. I think they are trying to go all airbus on the mainline as its wider better and more comfortable. The max in rouge cabins will probably go to the basic set ups with no IFE and somewhat like flair. With where the max will fly i thin kthey have also better servicibility on the 37
If the Max does go over to Rouge it would be nice to keep the IFE as a bonus for those passengers.
That A320 I referred to had no IFE, along with the smaller overhead storage. Once those 5 aircraft are upgraded with the larger overhead bins, lighting and seats with IFE. It will be the same as their Max 8's which I flown on several times with no hesitation.
@@SU95Xit has less to do with being wider, better or comfortable. Actually the 737 Max’s Air Canada has are very nice in terms of their cabin and seats. It has more to do with keeping the fleet consistent to help make crew training and maintenance simpler and cheaper.
I’m hoping this will allow them to run more A330s on high-demand short haul routes currently using the 737s and A220s
I wish they used the A330 for longer Halifax routes like the one to Vancouver, Calgary or the transatlantic ones
Isn’t the Halifax-LHR flights 737max8, is that going to continue under another airliner
Good move by Air Canada
i'm guessing those routes will turn into rouge offerings. They already substitute mainline flights with rouge aircrafts
Air Canada also has aging 777s do you think they might phase out those for possibly a350s since besides the 777 the largest plane they have is the a330 300 and the 787-10s on the way. But neither of those could replace the 777-300 only the 200
The 777s still have alot of life left.
@ they are aging though, reaching 20 years. And many more modern, fuel efficient wide bodies are coming out
@frogjello0919 most of them are from 07, and a few are 10 years old
@@GAZZA888 yes but a lot are reaching 20 years and air canada already said within a few years they are going to phase out their 777-300s
i assume AC is also transfering their Airbus fleet from rouge to mainline soon
Nah, with an average age of 25+ years I believe they're done.
@@zacherius137the ex Air Berlin A321s Rouge has are not that old, they'll go mainline, everything else is probably scrap
Only the A321s, but not the smaller Airbuses
@@Blank00where do you need a321 on internal Canadian routes where MAX'S are used now ?
Makes the Rouge fleet mergeable with Flair, if either is up for sale.
Streamline mainline fleet ...AB narrowbodies, Boeing widebodies !!
Smart move.
737Max are being replaced with A220s.. the 737s on mainline never flew at capacity so only makes sense to move them to Rouge and use the slightly smaller and cheaper to operate A220 on the old 737 routes.
I never understood why they went with the type in the first place. They had the A320 family already, the next logical step is to go for the NEO. Why add a brand new fleet type....
They had an ex Continental executive for a while who had a hard-on for Boeing
The MAX8 is more efficient than the A320NEO (the variant)
Did Air Canada have a bunch of older 737-800/900 planes they were also using? If they went from having zero 737 to 40 737 Max, that's a lot of pilot retraining. Or hiring new pilots that are 737 certified but might not be airbus certified. Complicates things from a maintenance perspective as well.
@@AaronSmith-kr5yfAC actually never operated any variants of the 737NG, they did on rare occasions wet lease some for summer high season though.
@@Blank00 they are about the same
For sfo yul, looks like they will use the A220 if you try to book next November
Did YUL-SFO on AC with a 220 last February, most confort, will never fly 737 ever again, came back from that trip on AC 220 LAX-YUL.
@marcbilodeau6927 yes I believe you, took the max several times and I won't miss it.
@@marcbilodeau6927 I love AC's A220 because of the seat width and layout. Having flown on both types, the 737 Max has more preferred seats than the A220. But they both have the same amount of legroom in the standard seats.
But soooooo much quieter!
@@marcbilodeau6927 Yes, while both have quieter engines, the A220 is slightly more peaceful.
I like the idea but I don’t think they should move all of them to Rouge. I feel like 40 is a lot for Rouge. I’d put most of them to Rouge but not all. I’d keep some with the mainline fleet. This may end up being the case idk
There is a clause in the new AC Pilot contract that the company cannot operate the same aircraft type at both Mainline and Rouge. That's why this is happening at all. So it's all or nothing for the 737
@ interesting
AC will move the younger 321s from Rouge back to AC. I bet they will also convert more routes/flights within Canada to "Rouge" as well, they already do use Rouge-branded planes randomly on quite a few domestic routes and have for a long time.
Rouge’s domestic destinations are not random. They go to leisure destinations, places like Kelowna and Charlottetown and seasonally elsewhere in the maritimes.
One possibility is that Airbus will discontinue the production of the A-220- 100 and replace it with the 500 variant. The 100 variant is not popular. Only 67 units have been delivered. The current backlog has only 30 A-220 100 while the 300 variant has 489 on order.
Doesn‘t matter too much because they run off of the same production line. So a -500 would be additional, not a replacement
This means that Air Canada has no intention of getting rid of Rouge, but in light of their announcement to start charging passengers for Carry-on luggage, there will be nothing to separate an Air Canada basic economy passenger from a Rouge customer. These don't sound like very clever moves.
However it may be a smart move to have fleet commonality in narrowbody and fleet commonality in widebody fleets, which means that they will operate Airbus narrowbody aircraft and Boeing widebody aircraft, similar to Jet Star.
the max's are moving to rouge because our new contracts prohibits the same aircraft rating type to fly for both rouge and mainline.... heavies will remain both airbus and Boeing with new big order rumoured to be the airbus a350 after the Boeing 787-10's get delivered
@@ramennoodles2040Okay, they have to operate narrowbody aircraft too, and the A220 and A320 don't have the same type ratings. So what happens there?
@@sainnt not sure what you mean.... the only aircraft operating for rouge will be the 737 MAX family (currently only -8 but we have been told that we will likely acquire -10 & -9 to increase capacity) all a320 aircraft will leave rouge... a220's are only operated by mainline AC
@@ramennoodles2040 Ok. What I'm wondering is what aircraft Air Canada will use to fill the gap between the A220 and their widebody fleet. The only option will be the A320 series.
Air Canada might as well make all their domestic routes Rouge with the exception of major transcontinental routes such as Vancouver-Toronto/Montreal/Newark, San Francisco/Los Angeles-Toronto/Montreal and the odd repositioning flight for widebodies. The front cabin on Rouge would be sold as Premium Economy.
Nah, the A220 is perfect for the Canadian market and the A320 also has a stronghold on the region
Initially I was thinking that the A321XLR order was to be used by both mainline and Rouge for thinner transatlantic routes. Now it seems that the 737MAX is going to do that for Rouge only. Looks like Rouge European destinations appear to be back.
I think Air Canada management is driving the company into the ground and this move is no surprise.
As someone who works under contract for them, I agree. I've never seen a flagship airline blatantly scam passengers, make repeated poor management decision after poor management decision, and cost cut like Air Canada does. I've seen it first-hand working as a gate agent. It's honestly disgusting. They're a fraud airline and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a major lawsuit for some idiotic thing they do in the next few years.
just like every other flag carrying companies in this country, and eventually they always get bailed out by the government with your tax money.
How so?
How so? This move makes sense.
Seems like a very strange decision by Air Canada. What will happen to Rouge’s current A319/20/21s? Some seem too young to be retired
My guess would be that they’re going to replace the 737 Max in the Mainline Fleet with the A320NEO and A321NEO. It would make since given they already operate the A320CEO Family and have the A321XLR incoming.
@@StormFanatic210 they will most likely use the A321NEO, LR, and XLR. But they are unlikely to use the A320NEO. They already have the MAX8 and it is more efficient than the A320NEO
Exciting news for Rouge and a lot more announcements to come starting next year! 🙌🏼🇨🇦 Rouge will be growing its Max fleet size and another aircraft type to join the Rouge family. Rouge will be how it was pre-pandemic and growing more to live up to the leisure title.
I don't think this is something that they wanted. I think, and I could be wrong, that there was certification issues. Such as that Rouge and AC could not have common fleet types. Much like Canada's own Porter Airlines. When they started jet operations with the 195-E2 jets, Transport Canada made them change their callsign as each fleet was under a different certificate. The Jet's fly with callsign, Porter### and the props fly as DashPort###.
AC will have to lease a320neos to fill the gap. Good luck with that as demand for leasing outweighs supply. Ordering new neos? Wait in line for over 6 years.
Surprised AC has such an old A319/20/21 fleet.
They were inherited from a few Canadian airlines that went bankrupt or merged into Air Canada in the 80/90’s.
Makes me want to fly Air Canada more!
I am.shocked by this decision.i thought AC was on its way to be an all Boeing aircraft on its mainline operations.
On the other ens of the spectrum i wonder what they will do on their 777LRs which they use on YYZ/YVR to SYD and YYZ/DEL.
Why would anyone want Boeing MAX on a reputable airline? Boeing MAX is at most for low cost carriers, but nothing else.
At least until the next Boeing falls out of the sky due to missing documentation, failed production audits, faulty parts installed or even outright missing parts.
And let's not forget, this is a Canadian airline, the country that wasn't very happy about what Boeing did.
Sounds like AC is consolidating all A321s under the AC banner; just looking at the ages of the planes, the A319s and A320s mentioned might end up sold off one by one as they age out first. The move of all 737 Max 8's to Rouge makes some sense in the context of whether they believe Boeing is actually capable of delivering those orders on time (and on-quality) or will continue to fumble any Max-related activities. If they think anything "Max" is a higher risk, then the decision can be seen as a move to place all that risk upon their Rouge operations rather than their mainline ones.
It has to do with the most recent pilots union contract, mainline and rouge can no longer share aircraft types, so in order to put the A320-series together, the 737 Max has to be reassigned.
@@sblack53 That makes sense; no longer a "one pilot flies all" world, definitely. Always something behind the scenes.
and rouge was such a good airline before now... oh well becoming the single most dangerous canadian airline to fly (but aircraft safety averaged across fleet fleet size not taken into account) makes deciding which Canadian airline to fly easy and is quickly making Porter the only viable option
Very interesting. Didn’t know that Air Canada’s mainline a320/21 series was so old. Yes, what exactly will they do to cover for their missing aircraft? Surely they will go Airbus for their mainline fleet but unless they’ve got something up their sleeve the deliveries would be quite far off. Good for Rouge, I guess…
Since the scandalous crashes, I still avoid all B737 flights. I still feel uneasy. On the other hand, the old A319 and A320 on AC are so dated and uncomfortable.
The 737NG are pretty much time tested. The MAX is doomed. One more crash/hiccup is all it will take.
The fear of safety is irrational, the 737 Max issues have been solved and also there hasn’t been a major crash in North America since 2009, which was pilot error. You’re right the A320’s are generally old in the fleet as they were inherited orders from defunct Canadian airlines, but their seats are more comfortable imo
Will they have rouge name in all their 737 max 8 aircrafts
Rouge operates all Airbus fleet, Flair is best for the MAXs
Room for the A220-500?
I guess Air Canada is preparing to be the launch customer of the new A220-500 for the 140-180 seat capacity segment and may convert some of the A220-300 to A220-500.
If there going to put the 737 over to Rouge this is going to be like flying on of West Jet's swoop planes since the 737 is more narrow then the 320
That’s definitely a big decision hope it works out for air Canada
A newer fleet might help AC to reduce delays, and stop cancelling flights!
Lots of people, including myself, are avoiding flying on the MAX. I never book a flight serviced by a MAX. Flew on a MAX twice as a result of re-routing after a flight cancellation. I'm sure that AC has noticed that the MAX is not the client's choice. The Rouge clients are different (unless you booked an AC flight that was handed-off to Rouge). Most of Rouge's flights are aimed to sun seekers. Most Rouge passengers don't care about the type of aircraft, as long as it bings them to destination. I agree with several other comments that AC is probably hoping for the A-200-500. But even though Airbus would announce it in a near future, we would be at least 4 to 6 years away from the inaugural flight. And Airbus is still unable to fill all the vacant positions to increase production of the A-220 in Mirabel. And I am not sure if the Pratt & Whitney PW1500G Turbofan engines would be powerful enough for the 500 variant
Keep in mind that once the fleet swap is done, AC mainline will have 19 A320ceos. Fins 235-242, 417-422, and 5 from Rouge (243-247). My guess is that the rest of the older A320s and all A319s will be retired. Manline already took one out I think (C-FYJI).
This segment should have stated the length of the Airbus queue for narrow-bodies for the size of the gap that the 737 MAX filled.
I would love to understand why Air Canada needs Rouge - to me it makes no sense
separate company on the paper, better for getting more government tax break, better for keeping the OTP stats on their mainline operation, and selling discount tickets and packages without involving their cross continent international flights.
It can help reduce costs for both the airline and passengers, it’s really meant as a “leisure airline” like Air Transat, Sunwing or those airlines where a lot of their flights are to tropical vacation destinations. But it’s kind of weird because they became kind of like Swoop, more of a budget airline offering Canadian domestic routes as well.
In a way isn't it aligning with a lot of low cost north American carriers that utilize max aircraft?
Good Decision.
There are 10 airlines lined up to buy those used 737's if they don't give them to their subsidiary.
Although AC is most likely making room for the A321XLR, I wouldn't put it past them to order a few A220s, too. Obviously, AC put its MAXs on both domestic and international routes. However, in my opinion, if they replace them with only XLRs, a good chunk of those new planes won't be put to their intended use (thin demand, long-haul routes). In other words, AC will waste the A321XLR's potential if they regularly place them on domestic routes like YYZ-YYC and YYZ-YVR, routes that the A220 is meant to serve. While the MAX is a more flexible aircraft, in my opinion, both the A321XLR and A220 objectively outperform the MAX. However, those two planes are meant for two completely different market segments, and Airbus doesn't currently a plane that is a hybrid of the two. And with the MAXs gone, AC will need a plane that can fill the gap in the domestic market, which, again, is where the A220 comes in.
Anyway, that's my opinion. Let me know your thoughts below.
@benhabot9526 they still have 25 A220 undelivered on their current order
@fuzzwork Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks!
I think they should order at least five more. That would fill the domestic gap completely.
As a tall person, Rouge is terrible. If it was at least cheaper and I had the option of booking it OR mainline AC, it would be fine. But AC usually runs Rouge-only routes so you don’t even have the choice. And the fares are pretty much the same as what you would pay on mainline AC. So it basically comes down to AC forcing you into a less comfortable plane at the same cost.
Air Canada is using 737 Max on intercontinental flights right now. I flew between London nd Halifax few times in those planes. Once they are moved to its subsidiary, let’s see which plane Air Canada will be using to replace Boeing 737 Max on those routes.
Mostly the A321XLR
Having flown Air Canada Rouge and firmly stating that I would NEVER fly with them again, I guess I will never fly on Air Canada's 737 MAX planes. That being said, I am a WestJet fan and would fly them whenever I can as opposed to flying Air Canada.
That’s a brand new aircraft!
Flew once on an AC Max and the seat was hard as a rock. I was twisting and turning in the seat and by the end of the flight, my bottom hurt. Never again.
All the Rouge Airbuses are even worse. At least the 737 Max cabins are nice and the IFE and seat material is nice and modern. I didn’t feel too uncomfortable on them.
They'll still use the Rouge 737's on domestic routes. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have insider information that Airbus is going to produce an A220-500. And they will order that as a gap filler between the A220-300 and the A321.
This saddens me alot! I love Air Canada's MAX, and for a person who HATES Rouge!! This means we'll be losing the nice interior. Let's just hope the A 321 retro fit is as nice as the MAX
This may be an odd one - but for me it is the toilets. On the latest A320 in BA service they have made the toilets so small that whichever way you enter you may have to maintain 😂 and i'm not especially large. The crew also seem to hate the plane as the loo has taken up hlf the galley space - sure they squeeze an extra row but gosh it's an odd experience going for a 'comfort break' on a neo.
Being a Canadian we know too well what will happen....AC will screw over smaller centres by cutting service and raising fares. If competition moves in the will raise service and cut fares until they have driven the late comer out,, then they will return to lousy service and high prices. The government is fine with this...AC has never ever been dealt with by "regulators" for their tactics.
You forgot about losing money, taking a tax payer funded bailout, then giving the CEOs a huge bonus for losing less money than they expected.
Classic.
One can always fly Porter Airlines it’s a excellent carrier. Based out of Billy Bishop Island airport in Toronto! Cheers 🇨🇦
@@gpaull2The government of Canada sold it’s stake last week at a huge profit. Let’s not forget the government of Canada as well as the Quebec government have been given $$ BILLIONS $$ to the Beaudoin family Bombardier over the last 20 years.
@@a.a.p1952 Would love to but they don't fly out of North Bay...they did until AC cut rates so low that Porter left, then our flights got reduced by 75% and the cost doubled.
With the MAX's moved to Rouge, AC won't have any suitable aircraft for not-as-popular long haul flights until the A321XLR gets delivered to them in 2025
That’s why the Max is transitionning in a period of 3 years
They aren't in a hurry. And to be honest, the MAX reputation is turning it into a plane for LC/LCCs only anyways.
Maybe they are working on a350’s and going after the long haul flights with the main carrier and do all the smaller stuff with rouge
Air Canada rouge should just faze out the a319 for the max and keep adding a321 and maybe bring back 767 and get a320 neo
Rouge operates all Airbus fleet, A320NEOs would be perfect for Rouge
You answered your own question. The transfer will occur over three years. That's a long time.
After 50 years, still so many service bulletin for B737. Nothing right about these. After 50 years, people still find flaws in this plane that could be catastrophic. Do you see service bulletin on A320?
Sure, comes with every software update
Service bulletins are a thing of every plane
A220 also provide similar range with A320, thus Air Canada can use it for thinner route. While A321 XLR have flexibility for mid thicker routes and longer range thin routes.
Don't think they need A320 neo, as there's potentially no gap with their fleet set up.
On the surface, this doesn't appear to make much sense. I think what it means is that more Rouge flights will be replacing what are today mainline flights. Using the MAX 8's to shave a couple dollars of the cost of Rouge fares is hardly worth the effort considering there is really no such thing as a low cost carrier in Canada.
Seems like Air Canada is maybe looking to shift most of their domestic operations to Rogue and focus the mainline on long haul oeprations, and that is mostly due to Canada's broken airport system where domestic flight slots cost a fortune and why Canadian domestic flights are so expensive. It's the main reason why Canadians usually travel abroad vs traveling within Canada.
I wonder if the Air Canada pilots follow their 737s to Rouge so there isn’t new training needed
Yes they do. At AC, Mainline and Rouge is the same entity for pilots.
They'll probably expand Rouge operations into routes that are currently being handled by mainline. Unfortunate, as Rouge cabins are somewhat uncomfortable by comparison. Further evidence though that Boeing continues to be in a world of hurt.
Must be getting more gently used leased A320 family jets as replacements in mainline.
737 max needed to be a mostly carefully thinking and considering to being operated for 737 max bad reputation and why airliners stills orders 737 max and moving to other models likes a320 neo?
Lead customer for 797 ?
never expected this
Good!