Note that the pump is operate for 2 seconds to build up pressure when pre infusion is activate. It is true pre infusion and not just pre weating. It works on both water tank and direct water line connection.
Just bought the Magica and we absolutely love it. Extremely well made and great features. I highly recommend any Bezzera machine! Also, great video guys!
Hey R&M K, Thanks for the comment - Bezzera does make nice machines! Want to see inside the facility where yours was made? Check out my Bezzera factory tour here: ruclips.net/video/KY14ND7_Exs/видео.html Marc
Hey r, Thanks for the question. Typically you should not need to. Let's say you have a good extraction on a double shot from 18g of ground coffee that runs 25 seconds ending with 36g of espresso in your cup. If you make a single, use 9 grams and shoot for the same 25 second extraction time and finish at 18g in the cup. Singles and doubles should have the same timing. With far fewer holes, single baskets are designed to have about half the flow rate of double baskets. Of course there are lot's of variables involved beyond the baskets which can muck things up. If you find your single is running too fast or slow you can adjust the dose weight up to slow it down or adjust weight down to speed things up. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi, thanks for review. I'm considering DUO DE. I'm just curious about porta filter. Is it standard porta filter that would work also in other coffee machines or is this somehow special only for bezzera machines? If I want a bottomless shower is it possible to buy any? What size is that? Thanks
Hi LV, You are welcome. The portafilter in the Duo is not compatible with common E61 group machines. Must use a PF compatible with BZ groups like this bottomless one: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-bottomless-portafilter-for-matrix-and-duo-de Notice Lock in tabs are at roughly 2 and 7 o'clock. Tabs on E61 PFs are at 9 and 3 o'clock. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks! I wonder if the Bezzera Group is superior to the E61. I like the PID controlled heating of the group head and the volumetric, automatic extraction. Are there any disadvantages of the BZ group compared to the E61? I also heard that it takes only 10 minutes to heat up.
@@ED-sg2zg in this price class, I strongly recommend to invest in dual boiler machines. I use the BZ DUO DE every day to make Espresso and Cappuccino for me, my family and friends and I'm very happy with it 😊
I'm all for touchscreens in devices which get replaced without being repaired. Now this is a machine meant to be used for a decade at least, with appropriate service (and repair, if needed). I wonder if and how Bezzera is going to ensure they can supply same or compatible TS seven or twelve years from now. I don't pretend I know anything about manufacturing of electronics but to me they seem ever changing every couple years. How easy is to source such display in case it goes bad...OPV, solenoid, pump or boiler are more or less standardized parts (I assume) and are rather interchangeable (with exceptions, of course)....and call me lame, but I still get occasional coffee spurts using bottomless filter, that would be right around nice display. What do you think about long term serviceability of electronic part of these machines?
It’s not a proprietary controller but the newest gicar, we’ll probably see more manufacturers adopting this. Should be as easy as replacing a pid, only a little more expensive.
You're right, but then Gicar PID with oval screen and silver buttons on sides also gets phased out by newer models. If one buys decent machine with older PID model - interesting, for how long Gicar will keep producing it. Sure, for some time there's parts stock. As it depletes, one has almost working espresso machine. I agree things fail and buyers move on, but I wouldn't like to bin such machine because of unobtainable board or screen.
Firstly, I hope you are being sarcastic about being FOR throwing away touch screens that can be replaced instead of repaired. That's wasteful! But just to let you know, my 7 year old electric car's touch screen is faulty, and the replacement screen is available on Alibaba for £12... a lot of these screens are generic, made for many devices with the same size, so I don't think getting a replacement is too difficult.
Hi Marc, Can you comment on the longevity of the BZ group versus the E61 group heads? I have seen the ease with which the BZ group heads can be disassembled, and seemingly with less pieces may have less points of failure. Aside from the obvious difference of faster, direct electrical heating with the BZ group head and the component difference which you have already detailed well, is there any comparison of taste profiles on the different group heads? There seems to be limited information comparing shot outcomes in the cup when using the BZ vs the E61.
Awesome review, thank you very much for sharing. What kind of material is used for the boiler inside the Bezzera Duo DE? Which machine would you take if you would have to choose and why, the Bezzera Duo DE or the ECM Technica V Profi PID? Would be very happy about your feedback. Thank you very much in advance. Cheers Mark
Hi MarkD, Sorry for the delayed response. Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison of those machines including boiler material type and a whole latte more info: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NjAwNDEzNTk5NSwyMjIzNzQzNTMzMTEw Personally I'd go with the ECM. I prefer manual control of the brewing process. At it's core the ECM is a much simpler machine. I appreciate the KISS design principle which IMO results in a more reliable machine. ECM is known for using high quality components. Hope that helps! Marc
Possible confusion/correction for new viewers not familiar with this series of machines. As you know point of this video is to discuss the features on the DE version. As you also know, the Matrix DE and Duo DE are essentially the same with the exception of the side panel lighting on the Matrix versus the back panel logo lighting on the Duo. Also… both of these DE units use the Bezzera Group, and (from watching your other videos on these units) both have LED lights in the Bezzera group head that illuminate the brewing area. As to the confusion issue in this video: When demonstrating operation of the Gicar touchscreen - specifically in relation to the "Lights" function - starting at 8:08. Todd states: "If you have the other version, this is the Matrix we’re doing this on, ... the other version ... the Duo... it will turn a light on the back of the machine, it WILL NOT HAVE THE BREW LIGHTS THERE" and he points to the LED brew group lights! NET: This could confuse people doing research to believe the Duo DE does not have the LED brew group lighting and the only way to get them is to get the Matrix De with lighted side panels that they may or may not want. NET: I believe Todd meant to say “the Duo MN” at 8:13 p.s. Since this was a comparison video, it would have been nice to include a shot of the back of the Duo DE with the logo lit up. I have yet to see any videos, from anyone, show that bit of bling.
Hi Elton, Thanks for taking the time to clarify - it's appreciated. We do our best to be as thorough as possible without making excessively long videos. Marc
I understand the Bezzera Matrix and Duo machines need to be shipped on a pallet, however, there isn't an explanation as to why (unless I missed it). Are they not as solidly constructed as similar sized ECM, Rocket, etc. machines, or is there some other reason?
Hi Dave, Thanks for a great question. Bezzera has made the choice to ship the machines on a pallet. Some manufacturers do. For instance Rocket Espresso ships their R60 and R Nine One on a pallet. It provides more protection for the machine and in some cases it may add to a customers premium product perception on delivery. For instance the R Nine One pallet/crate has the Rocket logo routed into the wood! It's also a bit of insurance for the manufacturer. If machines are damaged in transport they end up with unhappy customers. More protection during shipping lowers the risk. Marc
So the written description of the boiler heating logic indicated that there are options for steam or brew boiler priority but your video indicates that they heat simultaneously. Please clarify.
Hi r, Thanks for the question. One can set either boiler to get priority and the selected boiler will heat first. One can also set boiler priority to "none". In that case boilers will heat simultaneously. More info on page 44 of the manual here: wiki.wholelattelove.com/images/7/78/Matrix-Duo-Matrix-manual.pdf Marc
nice video. the de has triple pid. is the pid on the group head programable and does it show on the lcd screen. if so does that mean there is no pid offset since you get the exact temp on the group head.
Hi L, Thanks for the comment and question. To the best of my knowledge the PID group heating is not programmable. PID control of group heating makes it more accurate with less swing in temp between element on/off in the group. Marc
What are your guys' thoughts on these machines compared to the ECM Synchronika, the Rocket R58, and the Expobar Brewtus? Do you think the build quality is worse, similar, or possibly even better? I love many of the amenities on these Bezzera DE machines, but I'd also love to have a machine that'll last over a decade with proper care.
Hi Michael, Thanks for the question. In general all the machines are built well and should have no problem running for a decade with proper care. Single most important thing is supplying the machine with water of good quality to prevent scaling. We always recommend an inline water filter on plumbed dual boiler machines like this one: www.wholelattelove.com/bwt-bestmax-premium-filter-package-w-besthead-flex Thoughts... The Bezzera and Rocket are a little more complex than the Synchronika and Brewtus. The ECM Synchronika (and Profitec Pro 700) are IMO two of the best and most reliable machines in terms of internal design. Quality components with K.I.S.S. engineering. Synchronika is by far the easiest machine to work on. As a bonus, the Synchronika and Pro 700 can do line pressure pre-infusion and you can control the pre-infusion pressure via the regulator that's part of the BWT filter package. Hope that helps! Marc
How much grams of coffee do you put in the filter basket with the BZ group? It has 16g printed on it, but it seems that 16g is not enough. Greetings from Germany!
Hi BA, Your timing is perfect. I have the machine out for a shoot in the studio at the moment with thee stock basket with 16g imprint. I just put 19.5g in the basket and that tamped to a level below the indent of the basket. So You should be able to use more than 16g in the stock double basket. If you see an imprint from the shower screen in the puck after an extraction that indicates too much coffee in the basket. But IMO you can go over the 16g for sure! Marc
Another question, if i may ask here. I have a siemens eq6 now and planning to go for a half automated next year. But i like the DE version of the Bezzera, or the Elektronica from ECM. Also i like cappuchino so i need HX machines (i guess). I dont have unlimited budget, but can you recommend on a programmable dosing piston machine like the bz10de or bz13de or a e61 variant, with rotary pump and watertank+external water connection?
Hi PR, Thanks for the questions. The Bezzera DE machines and the ECM Elektronica fit your requirements. I tend to prefer the analog gauges of the Electronika and overall it's a simpler machine internally. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage but the DE are not all rotary right? The duo and the matrix are, but these have dual boiler and no hx. So elektronika is maybe better, but way more expensive. And the Bezzeras have faster brewhead heating... so still not an easy pick for me haha...😉
@@PhilippeCJR what did you end up picking? I'm debating between the same two!! And I'm having s hard time choosing for the same reasons you mentioned. I'd love to hear what you picked and your thoughts on it!😊 thanks!
@@Wholelattelovepage OK cool, thanks... so from my limited understanding, the only ones that do, are the Crem One, ACS Vesuvius, Decent, and Domobar super... any others you know of ? (in that price range)
Hi a, Thanks for the question. Personally I prefer E61 group. I get to use the lever to start and stop an extraction. To me it gives deeper connection to the coffee than pushing a button and it simplifies the machine. But, that's my preference. If you want to push a button, walk away and have the shot stop on it's own the BZ group is the way to go. The BZ group is electrically heated so it's up to temp and ready to brew ~10 minutes faster than an E61 group which heats via thermosiphon from boiler. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you for answering !!🙏🙏 so there is no difference in keeping the temprature constant between the head group and boiler in these two models ?
In addition to espresso, I am black coffee drinker (Long Black/Americano). There is very little information on your site, or videos that talk about the tap on the right hand side, by contrast to all the information about the steamer. Is the hot water protected by PID devices as well in this machine (and others), as I understand Long Blacks and Americano's can all be ruined by hot water that scorches the espresso shot. I've certainly experienced that in coffee shops, especially with an Americano where the boiling water is added on top of the shot(s). Keep up the top work guys.
Hi PG, Great question. So the water coming out of the tap is likely 212F/100C. It comes from the steam boiler which is running ~250F so that water is near or at boiling. There are machines which do water mixing to bring the temp down but it's a feature generally not found until you get into full commercial machines with prices >$5K. The save yourself $3K work around is to draw water into a separate vessel and allow it to cool a bit. I've experienced it as well! Marc
What about descaling? First, could you do it and secondly what does the manufacturer say regarding warranty. For example ECM/Profitec officially allow preventive descaling, rocket does not. (I guess if you descale and something goes wrong you’re on your own) A rocket rep told me it’s because of boiler material, stainless takes descaling better than copper. Where does bezzera stand on descaling?
Hi MF, Thanks for the question. The best way to deal with scale is to prevent it in the first place by using good water with low calcium hardness. Our favorite solution is the BWT Bestmax Premium filter system: www.wholelattelove.com/bwt-bestmax-premium-filter-package It uses patented ion-exchange technology which exchanges calcium for magnesium. Doing this prevents scale formation by reducing calcium hardness but maintains the mineral level (with magnesium) in brew water needed for proper espresso extraction and flavor. As a bonus, the pressure regulator on the system allows for adjustment of line pressure pre-infusion pressure when the machine is plumbed. Machines like Matrix and Duo and plumbable ECM/Profitec machines are open to line pressure even when the rotary pump is not running. FYI this is not the case in plumbable rotary pump machines from Rocket and Expobar. Those machines only open the plumbed water supply solenoid valve when the pump is running so line pressure pre-infusion is not possible. Here's what the Matrix/Duo manual says about descaling: "The introduction into the tank of chemicals, descaling agents, vinegar and/or citric acid, even if diluted, compromises the life of machine components. Any product that is used that is not fresh water will automatically void any warranty. Use ideal hardness drinking water, in French degrees approximately 6, never use hot water."
Hi ws, Thanks for the question. Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NjAwMzk3MjE1NSwyMTY3NjI4NDMxNDE0 Notable differences: Synchronika (Pro 700 is nearly identical internally to the Synchronika) is available from us with Flow Control on the E61. Synchronika has larger stainless steel boilers. The DE uses copper boilers. Synchronika/700 can do true line pressure pre-infusion when plumbed to waterline. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage A few things are to add: The Matrix/Duo DE do have the BZ group, which actually make more sense since we are talking dual boiler machines. An E61 group by design induces temperature fluctuations to an - in this case - otherwise very stable system, since the water off the brew boiler gets cooled down constantly by the group head. The BZ group head with the heating elements (which actually are controlled by a dedicated PID) will provide easier service (and less need for, since there are a lot less moving parts) and better thermal stability. Also, the Matrix/Duo DE are volumetic and will provide superior repeatbilty of your shots. Teh E61 variants of the Matrix/Duo will also do line pressure preinfusion, but they CAN do preinfusion without line pressure. The BZ group will also provide LED lighting so you can enjoy your shots. Seems like a little thing, but since brewing espresso is a sensory thing, it's more than that. Not to forget the funky side panels of the Matrix and the LED sign of the DUO on the back, which make the machines look a lot more modern. This is of course a matter of taste and personal preferance. Concerning stainless steel vs. copper, it has to be said that contrary to popular belief, copper is actually the better suited material for boilers. It is even less corrosive than stainless when in contact with water (there is a reason why water lines are made out of copper) and has significantly better thermal conductivity (there is a reason why heatsinks are made out of coppper). Also, with dual boilers, the question really is if bigger boilers are better. All they have to be is "big enough". Everything above that will only consume more energy than necessary, prolong heat up times and make the boiler less responsive to PID/heating inputs while making your water stale from sitting around in a big boiler. The Matrix/Duo with SCAE approved temperature stability of 0.7 degrees over the brew process and tons of steaming power is a very good example of that. This is especially true in the states and other countries where you only have 110 volts. What good does a large boiler do if its not heating sind the other big boiler is getting heated? Last but not least does the Matrix/Duo provide a stainless steel chassis vs the powder coated one of the Synchronica. And Matrix/Duo provide a lot (and in comparison more) of usefull comfort functions like automatic backflush cycle, shot counter, water filter counter, on/off timer etc. etc..
The date and time is not accurate it keep changing after couple of days......I have Bezzera Matrix MN I bought in August 2018 when it first come out and now the steam and hot water is not working it doesn't heat up
@@ED-sg2zg I don't have any issue with touch screen, but the date and time will be off after one day. After three years my steam boiler is not heating up i am trying to fix it I bought the machine because I loved the LED light panels
@@redcanon8384 the machine looks amazing but 3 years is like a bit early for giving these faults for a machine at this price point and quality. l am planning to buy one machine but read that this one is vulnarable because it is on electronic more than mechanic. l do not know how much true is this infornation. l hope you may fix it soon and enjoy!
Note that the pump is operate for 2 seconds to build up pressure when pre infusion is activate. It is true pre infusion and not just pre weating. It works on both water tank and direct water line connection.
Hi SB, Thanks for that!
Marc
Just bought the Magica and we absolutely love it. Extremely well made and great features. I highly recommend any Bezzera machine! Also, great video guys!
Hey R&M K, Thanks for the comment - Bezzera does make nice machines! Want to see inside the facility where yours was made? Check out my Bezzera factory tour here: ruclips.net/video/KY14ND7_Exs/видео.html
Marc
Hi Marc. Is this the best non-manual machine that you have tested? And what is the difference between these two models? And which do you prefer?
Does the grind typically need to be adjusted when switching from the double portafilter to the single? I have a Duo DE.
Hey r, Thanks for the question. Typically you should not need to. Let's say you have a good extraction on a double shot from 18g of ground coffee that runs 25 seconds ending with 36g of espresso in your cup. If you make a single, use 9 grams and shoot for the same 25 second extraction time and finish at 18g in the cup. Singles and doubles should have the same timing. With far fewer holes, single baskets are designed to have about half the flow rate of double baskets. Of course there are lot's of variables involved beyond the baskets which can muck things up.
If you find your single is running too fast or slow you can adjust the dose weight up to slow it down or adjust weight down to speed things up.
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@WholelattelovepageThank you!
Hi tod and mark. i have the expobar barista Minore IV. do you think this is a good upgrade? Or my current machine good enough. :)
Hi, thanks for review. I'm considering DUO DE. I'm just curious about porta filter. Is it standard porta filter that would work also in other coffee machines or is this somehow special only for bezzera machines? If I want a bottomless shower is it possible to buy any? What size is that? Thanks
Hi LV, You are welcome. The portafilter in the Duo is not compatible with common E61 group machines. Must use a PF compatible with BZ groups like this bottomless one: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-bottomless-portafilter-for-matrix-and-duo-de Notice Lock in tabs are at roughly 2 and 7 o'clock. Tabs on E61 PFs are at 9 and 3 o'clock.
Marc
I just ordered a Bezzera Duo DE and I can't wait for it 😅 coming from a thermoblock machine and I expect a totally new Espresso experience 🧐
Hi MS, Congrats on your new machine! You will most definitely have a new experience!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks! I wonder if the Bezzera Group is superior to the E61. I like the PID controlled heating of the group head and the volumetric, automatic extraction. Are there any disadvantages of the BZ group compared to the E61? I also heard that it takes only 10 minutes to heat up.
@@martins8486 BZ group does heat up faster. No inherent disadvantages.
heyyy, are you happy with it? planning to buy one but l am between rocket mozzafiato cronometro and Bezzera dou. can not decide:(
@@ED-sg2zg in this price class, I strongly recommend to invest in dual boiler machines. I use the BZ DUO DE every day to make Espresso and Cappuccino for me, my family and friends and I'm very happy with it 😊
Would've been nice to do a scace test for consecutive shots on the Bz group since there are reports of iffy stability.
I'm all for touchscreens in devices which get replaced without being repaired. Now this is a machine meant to be used for a decade at least, with appropriate service (and repair, if needed). I wonder if and how Bezzera is going to ensure they can supply same or compatible TS seven or twelve years from now. I don't pretend I know anything about manufacturing of electronics but to me they seem ever changing every couple years. How easy is to source such display in case it goes bad...OPV, solenoid, pump or boiler are more or less standardized parts (I assume) and are rather interchangeable (with exceptions, of course)....and call me lame, but I still get occasional coffee spurts using bottomless filter, that would be right around nice display. What do you think about long term serviceability of electronic part of these machines?
It’s not a proprietary controller but the newest gicar, we’ll probably see more manufacturers adopting this. Should be as easy as replacing a pid, only a little more expensive.
You're right, but then Gicar PID with oval screen and silver buttons on sides also gets phased out by newer models. If one buys decent machine with older PID model - interesting, for how long Gicar will keep producing it. Sure, for some time there's parts stock. As it depletes, one has almost working espresso machine. I agree things fail and buyers move on, but I wouldn't like to bin such machine because of unobtainable board or screen.
Firstly, I hope you are being sarcastic about being FOR throwing away touch screens that can be replaced instead of repaired. That's wasteful! But just to let you know, my 7 year old electric car's touch screen is faulty, and the replacement screen is available on Alibaba for £12... a lot of these screens are generic, made for many devices with the same size, so I don't think getting a replacement is too difficult.
Hi Marc,
Can you comment on the longevity of the BZ group versus the E61 group heads? I have seen the ease with which the BZ group heads can be disassembled, and seemingly with less pieces may have less points of failure.
Aside from the obvious difference of faster, direct electrical heating with the BZ group head and the component difference which you have already detailed well, is there any comparison of taste profiles on the different group heads? There seems to be limited information comparing shot outcomes in the cup when using the BZ vs the E61.
Awesome review, thank you very much for sharing. What kind of material is used for the boiler inside the Bezzera Duo DE? Which machine would you take if you would have to choose and why, the Bezzera Duo DE or the ECM Technica V Profi PID? Would be very happy about your feedback. Thank you very much in advance. Cheers Mark
Hi MarkD, Sorry for the delayed response. Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison of those machines including boiler material type and a whole latte more info: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NjAwNDEzNTk5NSwyMjIzNzQzNTMzMTEw
Personally I'd go with the ECM. I prefer manual control of the brewing process. At it's core the ECM is a much simpler machine. I appreciate the KISS design principle which IMO results in a more reliable machine. ECM is known for using high quality components. Hope that helps!
Marc
Possible confusion/correction for new viewers not familiar with this series of machines. As you know point of this video is to discuss the features on the DE version. As you also know, the Matrix DE and Duo DE are essentially the same with the exception of the side panel lighting on the Matrix versus the back panel logo lighting on the Duo. Also… both of these DE units use the Bezzera Group, and (from watching your other videos on these units) both have LED lights in the Bezzera group head that illuminate the brewing area. As to the confusion issue in this video:
When demonstrating operation of the Gicar touchscreen - specifically in relation to the "Lights" function - starting at 8:08. Todd states: "If you have the other version, this is the Matrix we’re doing this on, ... the other version ... the Duo... it will turn a light on the back of the machine, it WILL NOT HAVE THE BREW LIGHTS THERE" and he points to the LED brew group lights! NET: This could confuse people doing research to believe the Duo DE does not have the LED brew group lighting and the only way to get them is to get the Matrix De with lighted side panels that they may or may not want. NET: I believe Todd meant to say “the Duo MN” at 8:13
p.s. Since this was a comparison video, it would have been nice to include a shot of the back of the Duo DE with the logo lit up. I have yet to see any videos, from anyone, show that bit of bling.
Hi Elton, Thanks for taking the time to clarify - it's appreciated. We do our best to be as thorough as possible without making excessively long videos.
Marc
i didn't catch the difference between the two of them, aside from the color , what is it ?
I understand the Bezzera Matrix and Duo machines need to be shipped on a pallet, however, there isn't an explanation as to why (unless I missed it). Are they not as solidly constructed as similar sized ECM, Rocket, etc. machines, or is there some other reason?
Hi Dave, Thanks for a great question. Bezzera has made the choice to ship the machines on a pallet. Some manufacturers do. For instance Rocket Espresso ships their R60 and R Nine One on a pallet. It provides more protection for the machine and in some cases it may add to a customers premium product perception on delivery. For instance the R Nine One pallet/crate has the Rocket logo routed into the wood! It's also a bit of insurance for the manufacturer. If machines are damaged in transport they end up with unhappy customers. More protection during shipping lowers the risk.
Marc
Thanks Marc!
Dave Stewart my pleasure!
So the written description of the boiler heating logic indicated that there are options for steam or brew boiler priority but your video indicates that they heat simultaneously. Please clarify.
Hi r, Thanks for the question. One can set either boiler to get priority and the selected boiler will heat first. One can also set boiler priority to "none". In that case boilers will heat simultaneously. More info on page 44 of the manual here: wiki.wholelattelove.com/images/7/78/Matrix-Duo-Matrix-manual.pdf
Marc
Is both the left and right arms for steaming?
hey user, No. Right arm is for hot water. Left is steam.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage beauty thankyou, currently using a Breville Barista touch and looking for a good upgrade is its super inconsistent.
nice video. the de has triple pid. is the pid on the group head programable and does it show on the lcd screen. if so does that mean there is no pid offset since you get the exact temp on the group head.
Hi L, Thanks for the comment and question. To the best of my knowledge the PID group heating is not programmable. PID control of group heating makes it more accurate with less swing in temp between element on/off in the group.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank u Marc.
I just got one ☝️ lol 😝 from you guys and ceda grinder 37s
Hey m, that's awesome. Great combo! Thanks for your patronage.
Marc
What are your guys' thoughts on these machines compared to the ECM Synchronika, the Rocket R58, and the Expobar Brewtus? Do you think the build quality is worse, similar, or possibly even better? I love many of the amenities on these Bezzera DE machines, but I'd also love to have a machine that'll last over a decade with proper care.
Hi Michael, Thanks for the question. In general all the machines are built well and should have no problem running for a decade with proper care. Single most important thing is supplying the machine with water of good quality to prevent scaling. We always recommend an inline water filter on plumbed dual boiler machines like this one: www.wholelattelove.com/bwt-bestmax-premium-filter-package-w-besthead-flex
Thoughts... The Bezzera and Rocket are a little more complex than the Synchronika and Brewtus. The ECM Synchronika (and Profitec Pro 700) are IMO two of the best and most reliable machines in terms of internal design. Quality components with K.I.S.S. engineering. Synchronika is by far the easiest machine to work on. As a bonus, the Synchronika and Pro 700 can do line pressure pre-infusion and you can control the pre-infusion pressure via the regulator that's part of the BWT filter package. Hope that helps!
Marc
How much grams of coffee do you put in the filter basket with the BZ group? It has 16g printed on it, but it seems that 16g is not enough.
Greetings from Germany!
Hi BA, Your timing is perfect. I have the machine out for a shoot in the studio at the moment with thee stock basket with 16g imprint. I just put 19.5g in the basket and that tamped to a level below the indent of the basket. So You should be able to use more than 16g in the stock double basket. If you see an imprint from the shower screen in the puck after an extraction that indicates too much coffee in the basket. But IMO you can go over the 16g for sure!
Marc
Another question, if i may ask here. I have a siemens eq6 now and planning to go for a half automated next year. But i like the DE version of the Bezzera, or the Elektronica from ECM. Also i like cappuchino so i need HX machines (i guess). I dont have unlimited budget, but can you recommend on a programmable dosing piston machine like the bz10de or bz13de or a e61 variant, with rotary pump and watertank+external water connection?
Hi PR, Thanks for the questions. The Bezzera DE machines and the ECM Elektronica fit your requirements. I tend to prefer the analog gauges of the Electronika and overall it's a simpler machine internally. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage but the DE are not all rotary right? The duo and the matrix are, but these have dual boiler and no hx. So elektronika is maybe better, but way more expensive. And the Bezzeras have faster brewhead heating... so still not an easy pick for me haha...😉
@@PhilippeCJR what did you end up picking? I'm debating between the same two!! And I'm having s hard time choosing for the same reasons you mentioned. I'd love to hear what you picked and your thoughts on it!😊 thanks!
Question - is it true to say there is no pressure profiling on the Matrix/Duo DE (I mean the kind you can do on the Crem One Profiler)
Correct - no pressure profiling on the Matrix/Duo DE
@@Wholelattelovepage OK cool, thanks... so from my limited understanding, the only ones that do, are the Crem One, ACS Vesuvius, Decent, and Domobar super... any others you know of ? (in that price range)
Hello, bezzera head group or e61 ? Which one do you recommend ? Help me plz ..
Hi a, Thanks for the question. Personally I prefer E61 group. I get to use the lever to start and stop an extraction. To me it gives deeper connection to the coffee than pushing a button and it simplifies the machine. But, that's my preference. If you want to push a button, walk away and have the shot stop on it's own the BZ group is the way to go. The BZ group is electrically heated so it's up to temp and ready to brew ~10 minutes faster than an E61 group which heats via thermosiphon from boiler.
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you for answering !!🙏🙏 so there is no difference in keeping the temprature constant between the head group and boiler in these two models ?
Is it possible to change those joystick valves to knob valves? I really like this machine but that's about the only issue I have with it, ha.
Hi TP, Valves a fairly standard so probably could. Not a replacement part we stock so you'd likely be on your own to find.
Marc
Nice Video, gut never touch die Spout from the pitcher with your fingers!
In addition to espresso, I am black coffee drinker (Long Black/Americano). There is very little information on your site, or videos that talk about the tap on the right hand side, by contrast to all the information about the steamer. Is the hot water protected by PID devices as well in this machine (and others), as I understand Long Blacks and Americano's can all be ruined by hot water that scorches the espresso shot. I've certainly experienced that in coffee shops, especially with an Americano where the boiling water is added on top of the shot(s). Keep up the top work guys.
Hi PG, Great question. So the water coming out of the tap is likely 212F/100C. It comes from the steam boiler which is running ~250F so that water is near or at boiling. There are machines which do water mixing to bring the temp down but it's a feature generally not found until you get into full commercial machines with prices >$5K. The save yourself $3K work around is to draw water into a separate vessel and allow it to cool a bit. I've experienced it as well! Marc
What about descaling? First, could you do it and secondly what does the manufacturer say regarding warranty. For example ECM/Profitec officially allow preventive descaling, rocket does not. (I guess if you descale and something goes wrong you’re on your own) A rocket rep told me it’s because of boiler material, stainless takes descaling better than copper. Where does bezzera stand on descaling?
Hi MF, Thanks for the question. The best way to deal with scale is to prevent it in the first place by using good water with low calcium hardness. Our favorite solution is the BWT Bestmax Premium filter system: www.wholelattelove.com/bwt-bestmax-premium-filter-package It uses patented ion-exchange technology which exchanges calcium for magnesium. Doing this prevents scale formation by reducing calcium hardness but maintains the mineral level (with magnesium) in brew water needed for proper espresso extraction and flavor. As a bonus, the pressure regulator on the system allows for adjustment of line pressure pre-infusion pressure when the machine is plumbed. Machines like Matrix and Duo and plumbable ECM/Profitec machines are open to line pressure even when the rotary pump is not running. FYI this is not the case in plumbable rotary pump machines from Rocket and Expobar. Those machines only open the plumbed water supply solenoid valve when the pump is running so line pressure pre-infusion is not possible.
Here's what the Matrix/Duo manual says about descaling: "The introduction into the tank of chemicals, descaling agents, vinegar and/or citric acid, even if diluted, compromises the life of machine components. Any product that is used that is not fresh water will automatically void any warranty. Use ideal hardness drinking water, in French degrees approximately 6, never use hot water."
How does the matrix DE compare to the ECM Synchronika?
Hi ws, Thanks for the question. Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NjAwMzk3MjE1NSwyMTY3NjI4NDMxNDE0
Notable differences: Synchronika (Pro 700 is nearly identical internally to the Synchronika) is available from us with Flow Control on the E61. Synchronika has larger stainless steel boilers. The DE uses copper boilers. Synchronika/700 can do true line pressure pre-infusion when plumbed to waterline. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage A few things are to add:
The Matrix/Duo DE do have the BZ group, which actually make more sense since we are talking dual boiler machines. An E61 group by design induces temperature fluctuations to an - in this case - otherwise very stable system, since the water off the brew boiler gets cooled down constantly by the group head. The BZ group head with the heating elements (which actually are controlled by a dedicated PID) will provide easier service (and less need for, since there are a lot less moving parts) and better thermal stability. Also, the Matrix/Duo DE are volumetic and will provide superior repeatbilty of your shots.
Teh E61 variants of the Matrix/Duo will also do line pressure preinfusion, but they CAN do preinfusion without line pressure. The BZ group will also provide LED lighting so you can enjoy your shots. Seems like a little thing, but since brewing espresso is a sensory thing, it's more than that. Not to forget the funky side panels of the Matrix and the LED sign of the DUO on the back, which make the machines look a lot more modern. This is of course a matter of taste and personal preferance.
Concerning stainless steel vs. copper, it has to be said that contrary to popular belief, copper is actually the better suited material for boilers. It is even less corrosive than stainless when in contact with water (there is a reason why water lines are made out of copper) and has significantly better thermal conductivity (there is a reason why heatsinks are made out of coppper).
Also, with dual boilers, the question really is if bigger boilers are better. All they have to be is "big enough". Everything above that will only consume more energy than necessary, prolong heat up times and make the boiler less responsive to PID/heating inputs while making your water stale from sitting around in a big boiler. The Matrix/Duo with SCAE approved temperature stability of 0.7 degrees over the brew process and tons of steaming power is a very good example of that. This is especially true in the states and other countries where you only have 110 volts. What good does a large boiler do if its not heating sind the other big boiler is getting heated?
Last but not least does the Matrix/Duo provide a stainless steel chassis vs the powder coated one of the Synchronica. And Matrix/Duo provide a lot (and in comparison more) of usefull comfort functions like automatic backflush cycle, shot counter, water filter counter, on/off timer etc. etc..
The date and time is not accurate it keep changing after couple of days......I have Bezzera Matrix MN I bought in August 2018 when it first come out and now the steam and hot water is not working it doesn't heat up
heyy l plan to buy Bezzera MN but honestly the touchscreen seems vulnarable and easy to be broken. What have you done with your problem?
@@ED-sg2zg I don't have any issue with touch screen, but the date and time will be off after one day. After three years my steam boiler is not heating up i am trying to fix it I bought the machine because I loved the LED light panels
@@redcanon8384 the machine looks amazing but 3 years is like a bit early for giving these faults for a machine at this price point and quality. l am planning to buy one machine but read that this one is vulnarable because it is on electronic more than mechanic. l do not know how much true is this infornation. l hope you may fix it soon and enjoy!
What is the maximum steaming pressure for milk frothing?
Hi Eric, Thanks for the question it's about 1.4 bar as I recall.
Whole Latte Love not too shabby.
Cool
Hi Dan, Thanks for the comment!
There is no way we can contact your store...can not believe...only a bit answering, saying random things...
Hi CG, Not sure I fully understand but you can contact us here: via chat, email or phone www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us
pallet.....wtf
Lol, Small pallet!