If you enjoyed this video, you'll probably enjoy Reece Martin's interesting series comparing transit in the two cities: reecemartin.substack.com/p/table-of-contents
@@OhTheUrbanity Make sense. Well you Canadian should switch back to the imperial system -lol. 😉 The British are starting to use the imperial system again.
@@P-el4zdthe British never stopped using imperial. We adopted metric because it makes more sense & is easier to use. The rest of the world uses metric why should we switch away?
I dream of the day that Chicago and Toronto are connected via high speed rail (with Detroit serving as the midpoint). Maybe when I’m 80 they’ll get started on that. EDIT: Me: *ends post with joke about how it’s never going to happen* Comments: “pfft, like that will ever happen. Keep dreaming, bozo!” Guys, reading comprehension is essential.
@@dennyc9159I think you missed the words HIGH SPEED rail, which means it’ll be as fast as flying, even faster if you compare boarding times, border checks, etf
@@dennyc9159 you’re correct that hardly anyone would take the entire route from Chicago to Toronto, but that’s fine because there are enough mid-sized population centers between them to warrant improved services along the route. Connecting Chicago to Detroit and Detroit to Toronto, and putting stops in the small to mid-sized cities like Ann Arbor and London ON, would be the primary goal, but having some trains run the entire route would provide a good alternative to driving or flying, especially if your start point or destination doesn’t have international flights. We did a research project in grad school on potential HSR mainline corridors (not including spurs) in the US and Canada. We only found a few that were viable, ie the Acela corridor, SF to LA. Chicago-Detroit-Toronto was next, with improved efficiency if branch lines to Montreal, Buffalo, Milwaukee etc were eventually built. Texas Central, which is more likely to actually happen over the next couple decades, was ranked lower than that corridor because there are so few dense population centers on the route between Houston and Dallas that could feed into the system, and also because both of those cities have abysmal local transit services, which makes getting around after your train ride a complete pain. Not to say that one isn’t worth building, but Texas needs to stop screwing around and densify their cities if rail is going to work there.
@@dennyc9159 Not really! high speed rails are much faster than you may think, going up to 300km/h or 200mph, covering the 800km or 400 miles in around 3 hours. Also, Booking, commute to the airport and luggage bleed hours for planes, while rail can come more frequently and board on and off more efficiently. Though, Funkenstein's sarcasm does remark the obvious, we won't see any of this infrastructure soon. High speed rail is very expensive and this route is only going to serve a very specific demographic.
According to India , Toornto is the best city . According to Tom TOm traffic index 2023 Toronto ranked the 3 worst traffic and polluted city in the world . Toronto subway is old, noisy and falling apart like all the roads. Toornto has a blend architecture , no identity, high crimes, homeless and drugs everywhere . Chicago is the most sustaianble city and the best architectureand culture ( Identity )
@@Swiss2025 This bot is making up some bullshit. Can't even spell lol. Toronto is superior in quite literally every way. Fastest growing city in NA for a reason
I cannot emphasize enough how much Chicago needs to fix the smoking on trains issue. I absolutely hate how city leadership has been failing for years in that regard
Hey a lot of folks are doing what they can, they recently blocked the appointment of a completely unqualified director for CTA. Once Dorval is ousted I think things will improve. We had peak ridership since COVID last month. Get involved in local politics and make your voice heard.
Smoking on the trains wouldn't be so bad if you knew another one was coming in a few minutes. It's not uncommon to see 20-45 minute waits for some train lines on the weekend. I'm livid our current mayor finds this acceptable
@@AlexGetsAroundTO I'm not going to defend Doug's actions, but he didn't even come close to "killing it", the greenbelt plan involved removing at most a subdivision worth of greenbelt. It was like, .01% of all designated greenbelt (and even that might be an overestimate).
@@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 Thankfully the contract is set to run out in the next few years. Since it did cause Chicagoans to become accustomed to much more expensive parking fees, that may have helped aspects of developing alternative modes of transportation in Chicago, at least long term. But the deal itself had a lot of problems.
@@unconventionalideas5683 true. Frustration with parking can lead to some seeking alternative modes of travel, and that in of itself isn't bad. The more who choose to utilize mass transit the better. But the method is wrong. All because the scum who always manage to worm their way into public office are so morally bankrupt inside they steadfastly WILL NOT TAX WHERE THE MONEY IS- AT THE TOP!!! BECAUSE THEY'RE ORDERED NOT TO BUY THE FILTH WHO OWN THEM- that being big business and very high-income private households; because if they did why TF would they need to be betraying the public trust by selling off public assets!?! And it is a betrayal, it should be seen as a corrupt and criminal act and not only should it utterly deep-six any future chances of election any of them seek to have, they should be criminally charged with serious fraud and corruption. IF YOU SELL OFF PUBLIC GOODS AND SERVICES YOU SHOULD BE SEEN AS A CRIMINAL, FULL STOP! In essence you are destroying and throwing away what isn't yours to give!! It's not private property are go to me the crime is beyond dispute! Of course they won't be tho. Every big city is a cesspool of scum all greasing each other's palms and protecting each other. We keep electing the same amoral corrupt easily bought political scum and then we wonder why things don't change. I desperately wish there was an alternative. If only there a way to get rid of politicians altogether, because in this country I don't care if they come red or blue, I believe they are all at their core absolute trash. They're all destructive and they're ALL malignant narcissists. The exist to serve themselves at everyone else's expense & they do not care about the harm they cause. They're there to serve the elites and they could give a flying fig if the rest of us drop dead. I know that's a little melodramatic but I believe it's true.
@@unconventionalideas5683 true. Frustration with parking can lead to some seeking alternative modes of travel, and that in of itself isn't bad. The more who choose to utilize mass transit the better. But the method is wrong. All because the scum who always manage to worm their way into public office are so morally bankrupt inside they steadfastly WILL NOT TAX WHERE THE MONEY IS- AT THE FKG TOP!!! BECAUSE THEY'RE ORDERED NOT TO BUY THE FILTH WHO OWN THEM- that being big business and very high-income private households; because if they did (tax) why TF would they need to be betraying the public trust by selling off public assets!?! And it is a betrayal, it should be seen as a corrupt and criminal act and not only should it absolutely deep-six any future chances of election any of them seek to have, they should be criminally charged with serious fraud and corruption. IF YOU SELL OFF PUBLIC GOODS AND SERVICES YOU SHOULD BE SEEN AS A CRIMINAL, FULL STOP! In essence you are destroying and throwing away what isn't yours to give!! It's not private property, it's the public's, which IS *THEIR* JOB TO SAFEGUARD, ergo to me the crime is beyond dispute. Of course they won't tho. Every big city is a cesspool of scum all greasing each other's palms and protecting each other. We keep electing the same amoral corrupt easily bought political scum and then we wonder why things don't change. I desperately wish there was an alternative. If only there a way to get rid of politicians altogether, because in this country I don't care if they come red or blue, I believe they are all at their core absolute trash. They're all destructive and they're ALL malignant narcissists. The exist to serve themselves at everyone else's expense & they do not care about the harm they cause. They're there to serve the elites and they could give a flying fig if the rest of us drop dead. I know that's a little melodramatic but I believe it's true.
@unconventionalideas5683 true. Frustration with parking can lead to some seeking alternative modes of travel, and that in of itself isn't bad. The more who choose to utilize mass transit the better. But the method is wrong. All because the scum who always manage to worm their way into public office are so morally bankrupt inside they steadfastly WILL NOT TAX WHERE THE MONEY IS- AT THE FKG TOP!!! BECAUSE THEY'RE ORDERED NOT TO BUY THE FILTH WHO OWN THEM- that being big business and very high-income private households; because if they did (tax) why TF would they need to be betraying the public trust by selling off public assets!?! And it is a betrayal, it should be seen as a corrupt and criminal act and not only should it absolutely deep-six any future chances of election any of them seek to have, they should be criminally charged with serious fraud and corruption. IF YOU SELL OFF PUBLIC GOODS AND SERVICES YOU SHOULD BE SEEN AS A CRIMINAL, FULL STOP! In essence you are destroying and throwing away what isn't yours to give!! It's not private property, it's the public's, which IS *THEIR* JOB TO SAFEGUARD, ergo to me the crime is beyond dispute. Of course they won't tho. Every big city is a cesspool of scum all greasing each other's palms and protecting each other. We keep electing the same amoral corrupt easily bought political scum and then we wonder why things don't change. I desperately wish there was an alternative. If only there a way to get rid of politicians altogether, because in this country I don't care if they come red or blue, I believe they are all at their core absolute trash. They're all destructive and they're ALL malignant narcissists. The exist to serve themselves at everyone else's expense & they do not care about the harm they cause. They're there to serve the elites and they could give a flying fig if the rest of us drop dead. I know that's a little melodramatic but I believe it's true.
Amazing video, I've been saying for years that Toronto and Chicago should have a closer sister city/twin city relationship because we can both learn so much from each other. Imagine if politicians from Toronto met with politicians from Chicago and exchanged ideas and discussed problems and how they solved them on a regular basis, both cities could become the best versions of themselves! GO and Metra would also really benefit from some kind of an exchange like that as both operate in similar contexts (although with some important differences). The chicagoland vs. GTA comparison was also a good one. I like the way you ended up summarising it with the note about the golden horseshoe having more distinct centres.
Omgosh, when you mentioned many Torontonian’s inability to accept itself as a big city, still stuck in a provincialism backwater mentality, and waxing nostalgia about the good ole days of a surface parking lot littered downtown, those are the exact things I get flamed for on just about every “Old Vancouver” Facebook page! Is it a Canadian thing, where we are so identified with natural beauty, picture perfect shimmering lakes, and snow capped mountains, that we’re a little embarrassed to have a bunch of cities spoil it? I knew it wasn’t going to work out years ago with a girlfriend when I took her to my favourite lookout/viewpoint of Vancouver. High on an urban hill I proudly pointed out the city skyline looking crisp and organized against the mountains, and surrounded by water, and her response was, “Beautiful, too bad there’s a city there!” The beginning of the end of that romance. For too many people, the worst thing Vancouver ever did was to become a city. Expo ruined it, and the Olympics finished the job. To read some people’s assessment of the hell waiting for us all, you would think Vancouver was the first urban area to approach 3 million people, with Armageddon just waiting for that to happen. Every single world city a Canadian tourist wants to visit breached 3 million years ago, and yet......it makes me crazy, and the fact that we share some of that with Toronto is quite fascinating. Hey Montreal, are you cool being a big city, or is it something you’re always apologizing for?
I agree. People need to accept Toronto's growing prominence as a global city as well as the people in Vancouver and many othet Canadian cities. This NIMBYism is what stunts growth in our cities. Go Canada! 🇨🇦
Because Toronto’s growth is complete unnatural and unsustainable. 2 million non permanent residents since Covid and the countries systems and economy are collapsing the job market here is completely filled with immigrants and born Canadians are not able to get a job. Toronto was never supposed to be a huge global population centre like it has become. This country was sold out to corporations and politicians and Canadians are tremendously suffering because of it
I think it's attitude is realistic. Chicago is a well established world renowned city while Toronto has not really found itself. It is a work in progress. I don't think despite the beliefs of some in the west, it thinks of itself as a major city. Toronto has many great things going for it such as it is ranked fourth in the world for live theatre but in many ways it has not developed a mature personality. it is an adulescent.
I mean you definitely get that sort of sentiment in a lot of cities in North America. San Francisco really gets that feeling. The weirdest phenomenon you see in a lot of cities in the US is a romanticism for like the “bad times.” Like I know a ton of NYers who “miss the 70s.”
EXCELLENT video! It provides detailed and timely information and relevant videos. It is well-written, well-edited, concise, and educational. Wow, this is a rare find among chat-GPT-written drivel, with irrelevant stock footage being standard these days. BRAVO!!
I'm so glad you captured all of the brand new cycling infrastructure in Chicago! it's crazy how much cycling has improved in the city in literally just the last five years - we are lucky to have a few aldermen that are passionate about supporting biking in their neighborhoods, as well as a ton of community bike advocacy organizations!
We have lived here for almost 4 years, and every year I see more and more families biking in our neighborhood (including us!). Chicago still has a long way to go but it gets so much better every single year. I’m excited to see what it looks like in 10 years if this pace keeps up
I heard talk of an extension of the Dickens Greenway to the 606 trail. I hope it happens because that would make for an awesome east-west bridge. Much better than any of the options I've encountered so far for getting across the river
@@charlienyc1 Yeah I think a decent chunk of people started biking as a response to poor CTA service these days. I wish we were making progress on biking AND transit
@@LoveToday8 Indeed. At least minor improvements are being made. The new bike lane on Milwaukee between Diversey & Addison is something I'll use daily, for example.
Don't forget the Ludwig Meis van der Rohe connection. He designed several notable buildings in Chicago, including the Chicago Federal Complex and 860 - 880 Lake Shore Drive. His last project was Toronto's iconic Toronto - Dominion Centre, which was a huge part of Toronto's progress from "Hogtown" to an internationally prominent megacity.
Toronto still was a created city by 2-amalgamations. The second one forced by your gov when if voted never would have occurred. It was creating a much larger city in a day twice. Chicago did have one massive annexation in like the 1880s of areas around it as early townships and suburbs needing Chicago water, sewer lines installed etc. Chicago had after its Great Fire of 1871 many Architects contributing to a new city not built of as much wood, but brick and steel and massive growth as the fastest growing city in the world for some years. Mies less-is-more gave us glass boxes. Just Chicago had many decades of other eras of architects that left their mark creating a core of a variety of all of them as not to be all blue-glass or boxes. It has its share. Mies liked the black box. Other eras gave Chicago green to blue boxes that also at least break things up over so many that same blue glass. Post-Modernism also was a superior era vs Mies boxes that was 1980s 90s. That also gave more variety to Chicago over continued all boxes. Sadly, it can get boxes today though its superior larger ones do better. Chicago also chose the PODIUM high-rise to skyscraper. That has parking lower levels but newer post mid-90s ones still got retail street-level the city basically required. Toronto chose all parking must be underground in a high-rise to skyscraper. Still street-level can be banal anyway. Good podiums at least hide that parking.... not all. Just so many differences by legacy, history, being in different nations, governments, money's cities get from their federal governments is HUGLY DIFFERENT. Toronto metro gets many multiple Billions $$$ from Canada's vs Chicago lucky to get 1-Billion when Obama left office in matching funds by raising taxes of those living near lines to get upgrades. Chicago could do a lot more with many Billions for new subways Toronto can and does get. JUST SO MANY DIFFERENCES in LEGACY architecture to all the damage the US north saw from de-industrialization, massive interstate/expressways thru its cities destroying neighborhoods. Redlining by the US gov for FHA low interest loans in the 1930s to post WW2 GI loans where minority neighborhoods WOULD NOT see approved loans banks were given redlined maps of areas to loan and those to avoid where 1-2% went to minorities even. SO THE US GOV policies even did so much damage. Add Blockbusting pushing White-flight that lead to areas declining by taking wealth and retail with them. At least Chicago in the 50s early 60s still had areas of the city to grow into besides just suburbs and a very diversified economy vs a Detroit that helped it with a downtown already with key Corporate might.
If you’d like that sort of architecture, you should come over to Detroit to Lafayette Park, which is abundantly full of his architecture actually, it has the only ground level townhouse development that was ever designed along with several high-rise Towers downtown. It’s called Lafayette Park and it’s beautiful.
Native Chicagoan here. When I went to Toronto for the first time for ~5 days last summer the thing that stuck out to me was precisely how *unlike* each other the two cities are, especially considering how often they’re compared. At a really nuts-and-bolts level-and you guys did speak to some of this-very few major components of the built environment, demographics, planning philosophies or history of the two metropolises really share much common DNA. To the degree there are parallels, they’re mostly pretty cosmetic. The scale and depth of segregation and inequality in Chicago, which it’s fine that you guys didn’t dwell on too much, would be shocking to any Canadian, from any city, even if they knew to expect it. And I think conversely, the scale and depth of upward pressure on housing costs in Toronto and the unaffordability it’s resulted in, despite some localized problems in Chicago in this realm, would be shocking to anyone from Chicago or any other part of the U.S. Midwest. And I wish that aspect of the contrast between these cities-which you guys do a really good job on in general-had been highlighted a bit more. The other big Chicago thing immediately comes to mind which would’ve warranted at least a mention is our notorious history with high-rise public housing and the careless and destructive manner in which that flawed 1960s-era phenomenon was dismantled, mostly in the 2000s, and what that has all wrought for the city. You can’t talk about everything, but I think these are some elements that a full discussion, even with obvious time constraints, probably should have included. Don’t get me wrong, though: You guys did a great overall job here and I can tell that you got around to many parts of the city-including hands-down, indisputably, its best neighborhood: Rogers Park! I hope you stopped at R Public House and/or Jarvis Tavern when you were at the Jarvis Red Line stop!
There is no comparison with regard to segregation and income inequality as Toronto does not have the unfortunate demographic problem that most cities in the US have, at least not even remotely at the same scale. For this, Canadian cities are very fortunate, despite other issues they may have.
@@jayhpaq I disagree. Toronto DOES have a HUGE problem with the same demographic of people that Chicago does. Luckily that population is much smaller here than it is there otherwise Toronto would be truly doomed and be Chicago 2.0 when it comes to crime and violence. Even now with their relative small numbers we have massive crime problems and its disheartened to hear about a shooting or stabbing going on EVERY SINGLE DAY in the GTA when this wasn't the case even 15-20 years ago. Also I WISH Toronto/GTA population wouldn't be growing so quickly when unless you have an awesome paying job then good luck trying to buy a home in Toronto and even in the greater GTA these days. And to top it off the Canadian government seems hell bent on making these issues 100x worse with allow 1+ MILLION people into the country every year when we don't have the housing, healthcare, infrastructure to support even our existing population let alone hundreds of thousands of new people each year.
Rogers Park always makes me sad when I visit it. Not because it’s bad, actually so far from it. It makes me sad because it’s a stark reminder of what Chicago could be and what it really isn’t. It’s the only diverse neighborhood in the whole that isn’t just a university. It’s not some trendy community of suburbanites to be. It’s a real living place with life and identity that’s all its own. It was one of the only neighborhoods in Chicago that I spent time in that didn’t fill me with revulsion.
@@UzumakiNaruto_good point - if we had more criminals there would be more crime. Chicago's demographic is largely people born in Chicago or the USA, bringing in 10% of the amount of newcomers than Toronto brings in from overseas and from moving within Canada. Chicago's shewtings per year are also nearly 10x more than in Toronto. Your idea that more foriegners means more criime is entirely false and Chicago was probably the worst example you could've used.
@@jonjonson5730 *Your idea that more foriegners means more criime is entirely false and Chicago was probably the worst example you could've used.* I never said that ALL foreigners cause crime and violence in Canada, but rather that some minorities cause much, MUCH more crime than other groups of minorities. This is an indisputable fact that there are a couple of demographics of people who cause the bulk of violent crimes in Canada and that if you could magically make them disappear Canada's crime and violence rates would drop to historic low levels overnight. That's how many problems these specific groups cause because we allowed them to get out of control and were too afraid to hold them accountable for their actions for fear of being called 'racist'. Whether these few demographics have been here for generations or they have only arrived in Canada for a few years they all mostly have their origins from the same regions of the world. This is fact and all you have to do is look at most wanted lists photos in Canada and see that its no different to many most wanted lists in the US. Also ask yourself why do you think that the Canadian government absolutely refuses to gather and release race based crime data even after all this time? The FBI does it and we've seen the results of the data they've gathered and I'm 100% sure that the Canadian government doesn't want to do it because they're afraid that the data they gather will also return the same results. Namely that not all diversity 'is our strength' or is good for our nation and for a country that has built its reputation as being the most diverse and multicultural in the world that's not a good look.
As a native Torontonian (East Yorker) now living in Chicago, I've thought about this for ages -- congratulations. But you downplay the importance of the 26 miles of accessible lakefront in Chicago. The Toronto Islands and the other beach you mention are hardly comparable.
@@ianstuart5660Essentially, Yes. Where the Chicago river crosses, you can take a bridge that has separat pedestrian & bike lanes, both protected from car traffic. The Lakefront path is pretty sweet, actually!
Please tell me that Chicago is not as crappy as Toronto. Toronto is a disaster with nut jobs everywhere in the city. Not to mention the cost of living and passive aggressive culture.
Great comparison between the two cities. It seems Toronto's equivalent to the 606 Trail is the West Toronto Railpath which is planned to be extended southeast to Abell Street and eventually connect to the Douro-Wellington bikeway. As for housing, Toronto has been making several bold moves including fourplexes citywide and allowing up to six storeys and 60-unit apartment buildings; the latter of which happened this past week.
I think a better comparison would be the humber river trail if you wanna beat out chicago for the best multi use path. It runs nearly uninterrupted for 10km from the northwesternmost point of the city ALL the way south to the waterfront trail.
I really wish Toronto would find a way to open up its waterfront areas more, maybe even build outward to add more park space if possible. My favorite thing about Chicago is the waterfront and the skyscrapers that flow along the Chicago river.
The Toronto waterfront truly leaves a lot to be desired compared to the rest of the city. The majority of it functions purely as road connections, so the few attractions along the water feel isolated. I spoke to a New Yorker who said he visited the city several times for conferences before realizing that downtown is walking distance from the lake. I understand why, most of the interesting stuff in the city is concentrated out of sight of the water.
Agree with you 100%, Chicago has a far superior waterfront. Always thought they should shutdown the Toronto Islands Airport and convert to a park connected by walk/bike bridges to the city. It could be converted to a beautiful parkland with a state of the art open air entertainment center.
@@jeffneptune2922 It's the 9th busiest airport in Canada, brings in a shit ton of money and employ quite a lot of people. Toronto has a ton of parkland, people just don't bother looking it up.
In re: wealth and segregation. A Vancouverite friend once said to me, "Canadians are generally poorer than Americans, but American poor people are much worse off than Canadian poor people," and I think that's borne out in these data. As far as demand pressure goes: something it's hard to realize until you leave Chicago is how lucky we are for not missing the "missing middle". It remains easy to build mid-rise, mid-size apartment buildings in Chicago, from 2-4 unit "two-flats/three-flats" and 6-8 unit "six-flats" to 48-75 unit blocks, which generally aren't of the oversized, prefabricated variety one sees in Houston or Seattle. Developers in Toronto seem to go straight for building a 60-storey tower everywhere, and I do think a lot of neighbourhoods could benefit from small/medium blocks that aren't directly on Bloor or whatever; they can even have street-level retail of the convenience store, dry cleaner variety. Goes a long way toward making things walkable. We're trying to get parking minimums reduced here in CHI to induce more transit demand, and that's proven tough. But I'm really enjoying the new bike infrastructure.
Chicago doesn’t really build new homes though. You occasionally see new five-over-ones in trendy neighborhoods but like what major city in America can’t say that about itself lol. It’s a city that was already built for being 2x the size that it currently is and remains affordable because of that mostly. Chicago YIMBYs like to act like it’s a well run city but it’s affordable precisely because it isn’t lol. Trust me, I worked for a Chicago real estate law firm assisting developers and the city government kept us busy lmao
One interesting thing with Toronto is a lot of those dense, detached homes somewhat close to downtown are converted into 2-3 unit walk-ups - each with their own separate kitchen and multiple rooms. I have a few friends that live in or have lived in them, and they can be pretty nice and quite spacious! Others are small businesses. Like my partner's therapist's office is on the first floor of what used to be a detached home, which is interesting. It would be nice to have more mid-dense buildings though - the issue is once a developer gets their hands on a plot of land they want to build up on it as much as possible to maximize their return on investment. I'm starting to see at least some new builds be 8-12 stories and those tend to have plans for more spacious units. The issue is a lot of Toronto's new build, high-rise condos are small studios and 1-bedrooms, and we're seeing the market for those (that was once red hot) cool off lately. So hopefully that leads to more larger units being built in the new build condos, as those continue to be desirable.
Toronto does have a reclaimed railway beltway park and also reclaiming the lakefront for parks and boardwalks (sugar beach). And no mention of in-city airports (Billy Bishop and Midway). While subway in Toronto covers less distance, two new LRT routes are soon to open adding about 20 miles of “subway/el” transit.
Toronto even has normal beaches on the waterfront too, like Woodbine. It just has fewer things directly on the waterfront than Chicago. As for airports, there's a limit to how many things we want to mention in a video.
I really want to see the urbanity showdown between Seattle and Vancouver. There is a wacky confusion that makes people flustered: Washington state also has Vancouver city which is just across the river from Portland Oregon.
And there would be some similarities in comparing the two West Coast giants. Vancouver while "technically" smaller, feels bigger given its density. If Canada would do a US CSA style, Vancouver would be more than 3.5 million residents in a much smaller area than Seattle-Tacoma CSAs roughly 4 million. And while Seattle has taller buildings, Vancouver has much more filling a peninsula and more. Transit is the huge edge to Vancouver, with actual proper subways while Seattle has better Commuter Rail. Vancouver is more on the Pacific Ocean than Seattle. Vancovuer is much more ethnically diverse. Vancouver city area is half the area of Seattle yet just as populated. Anyway, would be a great comparison of two cities, largest in the Pac NW and very similar but different at the same time.
@@rchilde1 "Vancouver is much more ethnically diverse" not true at all. Seattle metro area is diverse asf nowadays. also I feel like I actually see more 'diverse' population more than Chinese or Indians in Seattle than lower mainland.
@@rchilde1this is generally correct - I’m surprised at the population drop off when taking a train or bus out of Vancouver. But it’s not like say Amsterdam where you go from farmland to their central rail station in 10 minutes. Driving the nearest cornfield in from Chicago’s loop is much longer, Chicago land goes on forever
I'm glad you explained greater Toronto's population and how you added to that by adding cities. I tell people that both greater Toronto and greater Chicago are about the same in population, if you use the same land area for both.
Excellent comparison of two of the biggest cities in the great lakes area! I like the way you detailed everything from urbanism, to road and transit infrastructure. Chicago looks super interesting and I hope to go soon!
Living in Chicago for 8 years now, and just recently spent a week in Toronto. Chicago can be cool from the aerial shots but in Toronto, I used public transit without fearing for my life for a week. In Chicago that seems impossible to me
@@daniellat5763 You sound stubborn & lacking in intellectual curiosity. Typical of Torontonians. For starters, Montreal is a much more interesting & older city than Toronto with a better & vastly more interesting transit system. You don't find anything "boring" about the sea of grey commie blocks & generic glass condos that make up 2/3's of Toronto?
There is no comparison in what a Chicago gets for transit from the US vs Toronto by Canadian feds. Chicago gets bits and pieces and was lucky to get matching funds for improvements along a line by a exiting Obama Admin. It was 1.1 Billion $$. Toronto already had 4 large transit projects going in 2021 when the Canadian Gov gave another massive 12-Billion $$$ for Toronto/Hamilton Transit for new lines and improvements. HUGE GAP. Chicago has parts of its system back to the 1800s. Many still used from the early 20th century. Its subway portions in the core was early 1940s and that was fed money for WW2 project. All its previous ones were PRIVATE COMPANIES BUILDING MANY LINES OVER DECADES with their own divisions of getting along and ultimately becoming one line as the CTA that even closed some lines in the past. Its last big extension to O'Hare airport using the media of a expressway was in the very early 1980s. The US has only basically LA getting a new or extended suburb currently and not much in federal funds to to so many of our larger cities to utilize vs a Toronto metro from just your Federal Gov. Washington DC got its transit lines as a 1970s Fed project that gave Fed employees free transit vouchers they still get as nearly 20% of its ridership that also surpassed Chicago, yet it is subsidised vs Chicago's and federally build as a new system. Chicago has full alleyways throughout the city lined with garages. That gives less incentive to us transit also to have more than street-parking and of course so many high-rises and skyscrapers are podium ones with parking lower levels that since the late 90s at least gets retail surrounding the base. Toronto requires parking underground if it is built into a building. Still it did not create a better streetscape look IMO. Chicago's mix of older buildings of every era give it just so much more diversity of styles.
@@davidw7 Small correction is a lot of Toronto transit projects are paid for by the provincial government, not federal for the most part. I think another part of the funding issue difference is just the use, more people use Toronto transit and pay the fares, which in turn gives it more funding. Toronto's traffic can be so bad it forces people to use transit because it's just faster and less frustrating. Funnily enough some of the latest traffic bottlenecks and issues to come about is because of a lot of construction, including the construction of the new subway lines. The first one - that started construction in I think 2011-2012 - has been a bit of a shitshow. It was supposed to open in 2020 and still isn't open yet. There's so many rumours and theories about why this line is still not open. There is finally evidence that they have begun training operators though, so I'm hopeful we're under a year away for the new line.
@@Vanessa-vz5cw I believe my comment as a American and vs what US cities get is that Toronto and its region get many many billions $$$ from your feds OFFICIALLY. I went by a 2021 CBC link that said this (links usually get delete if pasted). The federal government will spend more than $12 billion on transit projects in Toronto and Hamilton. Title: Federal government to spend $12B on Toronto, Hamilton transit. 4 Toronto transit projects already underway will receive more funding. Infrastructure Minister Catherine McKenna said Tuesday that $10.4 billion in funding will go toward four "shovel ready" transit projects in Toronto - the Ontario Line, the Scarborough Rapid Transit replacement, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT and the Yonge-North subway extension. This funding will cover about 40 per cent of each project. However, none of these transit lines will be completed until at least 2029, said Ontario's Transportation Minister Caroline Mulrone. My point was not negative... just Toronto in another nation is under totally different laws and funding policies and we need to realize it is not THE SAME PLAYING FIELD. Can you imagine if Toronto was in the US Rustbelt/Midwest? It would be in the same boat, had the same dis-investment, same racial change/white-flight over the decades and lost so much to just suburbs, then Asia in so much lost jobs for the cheap and STILL NOW... a region that our Sunbelt cites can drain with their state incentives and claims of lower taxes.... that all was real. It restricts population growth going elsewhere. Toronto was as having a not silver or gold but platinum spoon. A created large city by 2 amalgamations the second one totally FORCED and not wanted by those in other cities... and how the Quebec Separatist movement had TORONTO MADE THE MOVE TO FOR ALL OF Montreal's banks to national key powers.... ENDING MONTREAL's choice as Canada's Premiere city and Toronto conditioned fully to be the poster boy since.... Canada has not Sunbelt region to take from Toronto as it is immigrant central to the Queen city of Canada's main industries that others cannot steal or lure from in reality as how US northern cities have and been so damaged by it for decades.
This was really fun. As a Toronto resident, I definitely thought I envied Chicago’s CTA + METRA - until I saw their headways. While our subway is lacking in length, the GO system is being rapidly expanded with 15-30 min headways and new inner city shoulder stations being added along with electrification in the coming years.
now to be fair to metra, they are taking massive strides in improving themselves and have recently begun to improve frequencies on some of their lines, especially on weekends. their goals now are to scrap their identity as a commuter rail system and to become a proper regional rail
Regional transit is definitely something where Toronto has improved in. And they needed to improve it, because the traffic you hit trying to get into downtown can be insane.
Your voice makes me feel happiness and keeps me focused, like on track! See what I did there. Oh shit. Laundry time! Happy Saturday y’all! Take trains and never buy a car ever!
Great video, great comparison! I think Chicago parks along the Lake are much better then Toronto overall, and the Chicago downtown river walk is beautiful, Toronto has no street or waterfront as nice as that Chicago river walk. Also I agree it felt strange to me that the Subway L in Chicago was coming every 10 mins when im use to it running every 2-4 mins...but Chicago L has some 24/7 train service, that is pretty awesome. Toronto does have 24/7 bus routes and Streetcar Routes...but the entire Subway ends around 1:30am everyday...a 24/7 subway route would be nice to have!!....but Toronto currently has a lot of public transportation under construction today....the Finch West LRT line...18-stops, 6.4 miles long. The Eglington LRT...32 stations, 17 miles long. The Hurontario LRT Line....18 stops, 11.1 km long. And lastly the Ontario Subway Line....15 stops, 9.7 miles long. Thats 4 different rail projects being built right now, and i believe 3 of them will be completed in the next few years. I dont think anywhere else in USA or Canada has this many transit projects in 1 city being currently built.
Great overview! The only thing that I would add is Toronto’s unusual above ground Streetcar network which carries a lot of people. There is also a ton of transit expansion underway in Toronto which isn’t mentioned. Not sure about Chicago in this regard.
Great point. Toronto's streetcars are unique, although I wish they only had dedicated lanes. Having drivers from out of town can be deadly when exiting a streetcar that is sharing the road with cars.
The town I live in outside of Toronto was a tiny hamlet 25 years ago when I was born. I think part of Canada's problem is we never planned for the massive amount of growth that has come in the last few decades, and the suddenness of it all is why so many older Canadians speak fondly about how nice Toronto was in the 80s. My father, a very blunt man and lifelong Torontonian, has always said just the opposite "Toronto was a dump before 2000." Our challenge now is figuring out how to combine transit, affordability, right-sized housing, in a way that doesn't require paving the Greenbelt, but also recognizes that change has to happen and that neighbourhoods aren't museums of childhood to be preserved forever the same way. And our politicians need to learn that if you save a nickel today but it costs you a dollar tomorrow, you're not doing anybody any favours but screwing the future.
Well said, Toronto just not planned to be this populous. Chicago was planned to be a great metropolis but social economic issues are limiting it's growth
*My father, a very blunt man and lifelong Torontonian, has always said just the opposite "Toronto was a dump before 2000." * I think a vast majority of people who lived in Toronto in the 80s and 90s would heartily disagree with your father. Sure it had its dingy parts, but Toronto back then had its own vibe and a soul. So many unique mom and pop stores and small businesses that made downtown Toronto so fun to visit and to spend time at are now mostly wiped out for a neverending line of glass condos and chain stores. Also if 80s/90s Toronto was a 'dump' then what does it say for today's Toronto that averages a shooting/stabbing every single day? All the homeless, mentally ill, drug addicts hanging around in parks and on the streets being a threat to the general public. It wasn't nearly this bad 20-30 years ago that's for sure.
@@TheEnderPearl What are you smoking that you believe crime is actually lower now than 20-30 years ago? There's never been more shootings, stabbings, armed car jackings, car thefts, random assaults and other violent crimes as there has been now in Toronto and surrounding areas.
I'm excited to see what will happen in Toronto in the coming decades. City council just approved zoning for a massive area for mid-density housing by-right along major streets all over the city, as well as allowing quad-plexes in nearly all residential zoning areas. Once the current batch of condo projects wraps up I hope to see more developers tackling infill development. I expect it to be the smarter investment option in an era of higher interest rates. Only time will tell.
They need to stop building endless condos in downtown, especially along the lakeshore, then letting foreign investors buy up all the units to price out the local Torontonians who end up renting them for much higher prices. The endless land development is also pushing out traditional and cultural pockets of the city like the Kensington Market area.
A few others. Until 20 years ago, Chicago also had a small dt island airport until the mayor overnight destroyed it while Toronto's developed into a real city-centre airport. Also, some bank towers of Toronto to save costs of new designs are copies of or inspired by Chicago buildings from famous architects. BMO First Canadian Place is an actual copy of Aon Center, Chicago with the stripes running horizontally instead of vertically. TD Centre is by the famous architect of Chicago, Mies Van Der Rohe. With TD Centre, he took his style from his own Chicago projects and turned it into a tower complex. Commerce Court integrating 1930s CIBC tower with 1970s CIBC Tower was done by IM Pei who has several Chicago projects.
If you had to live somewhere in the states, where would it be? I actually think Chicago might be the best option. Of course there's New York but it also seems a bit overwhelming, and is much more expensive. Washington DC might be the most pleasant, but it's also extremely expensive. The other East Coast cities - Philly, Baltimore - seem less green and more depressing on street view. Chicago seems to have a good balance of size, cost of living, beauty, urbanism, diversified economy, kind of something for everyone. Maybe Boston...
Back in the 60s in engineering class we were told at the time Chicago was developing its major road system, there was a question about cost and safety. It was decided to go by the cost of life insurance which is reletively low so the system saved cost by having low safety.
Toronto does have several light rapid transit projects under construction and there are dozens of new skyscrapers (including supertalls of over 300 metres) either planned or under construction. This goes as well for several suburbs, such as Mississauga and Vaughan. In addition, rezoning to allow for greater density in the more suburban parts of Toronto and some of the suburbs have also been passed. I think these current develops should also be mentioned because they would certainly change the resume of this video.
An interesting video~Comparatively. Chicago for me stands out because of its architecture & public spaces downtown. The aesthetics of the city are top notch. Freshly scrubbed & prettier. But Toronto, a wealthy city too, a safer city, has some very attractive areas also, many affluent residential areas near downtown & good looking streets in the core that the video didn’t quite capture. But so much less dense than Chi-outside of the core. Chicago def scores higher points in more impressive city category right now, but Toronto is no slouch either, it’s got a cool aesthetic vibe in some of its neighbourhoods & downtown areas. Like Yorkville ~Chill & relaxed. Also, Massive New Waterfront revitalization & Portlands project are happening now.. Toronto is a chaotic construction mess as I post this. A lot of new building of housing & transit is happening now. City will look a lot different in 5-10 yrs. Should re-visit the 2 towns then.
This was great! I was pleasantly surprised to be reminded of all the three story walkups of Chicago and the density they provide. In that sense the city is more comparable to Montreal. If I could quibble, it would have been helpful to discuss the place of the new LRTs in Toronto and how they will contribute to the discussion of which city has more mass transit, to say nothing about the street car system in Toronto that has no real comparison in Chicago that I know of.
Great video! I have always felt that Toronto would kill to have Chicago's infrastructure, Chicago would kill to have Toronto's population growth. When I first visited Chicago from Toronto I was struck by how great and extensive their Transit and general infratstrture systems were, but also by how few people were downtown as compared to Toronto. While both are great Cities, as demographics is destiny, I think the future belongs to Toronto.
That’s quite interesting, having lived in both, I’ve always thought that downtown Toronto had noticeably less foot traffic than Chicago. Both have huge numbers of office workers, but downtown Chicago seems like of a destination to eat and drink, whereas in Toronto the most popular places from my experience are a bit outside the core, e.g. King West, Queen West, and Ossington. Also, Chicago gets absurd numbers of tourists anywhere near the Mag Mile.
@@Lukasz-nw2pb I lived in Chicago for many years and I’ve never heard anyone describe the Loop as a destination for eating and drinking lmao. Mag Mile and State Street are tourists traps that are almost never visited by locals.
What always surprised me was just how few people took transit in Chicago but tbh it’s not surprising when you actually talk to Chicagoans. Living there for so long I have discovered that it’s not a city. It looks like a city. It has a city layout. But Chicago isn’t a city anymore. It’s an incubator for future suburbanites and the culture and identity of its people reflect that. People on the Northside will openly brag to you about never going south of Roosevelt like it makes them better people. I’ve had a dozen people tell me they do not take the Red Line because “it goes through the Southside and so those people tend to stay on the train.” In the same conversation I’ve dozens of times heard Chicagoans mock outsiders who think the city is dangerous but then say the Southside is a hellhole. They would tell you this even if you’re from the Southside (which i am). Most of the permanent residents who are not black Southsiders or Mexicans in the West side, are just suburban born Illinoisans or Kansas farm girls who come here post grad to post cute brunch photos before shacking up with some other suburban born Greek life graduate. They’ll maybe try to be cool and hip and not move to the suburbs before their first kid is born, but as soon as that baby can read he’s being shipped off to some town ending in Park, Grove, or Heights to be in “a good school district.”
@@Lukasz-nw2pb That’s an interesting point. I think this gets a little bit into the semantics of what “downtown” is. It’s true, while pre pandemic Toronto’s downtown core was a little busier, our downtown core (where the tall office towers are) is relatively small compared to the entirety of downtown (depending on definition). The downtown core tends to be very busy during the day but a little dead after working hours. The areas that flank the Downtown core in Toronto you mentioned are very busy. So are a number of other areas which flank the downtown core that are still technically downtown: the Waterfront, Yonge Street, Yorkville (Bloor-Yonge), the Annex, King Street, Queen Street, College Street. I could be wrong about Chicago, it was my observation when I visited. I was surprised to see so few people throughout many parts of Downtown.
@@patrickboldea599 Maybe I’m wrong but I feel like many US cities seem to follow this trend. Downtown is a place to come into, see a sporting event or a show and then drive back to your large suburban home where it’s “safe.” I guess Chicago used to be different?
So nice to see a video that gets it right about Toronto. I've lived here a long time as a transplanted American...it's not perfect and has some huge problems, but the comparison with Chicago is apt. When I'm in Chicago, I like it much more than Toronto, but that's more about new, different and older. On balance I think that Toronto is an easier place to live, especially downtown and if you aren't car-reliant for a commute or lifestyle. If you are an "urbanist", you may see more hope for a car-free central district in Toronto, but it will involve a more progressive provincial politician, and, frankly, greater WFH. You're right to quote Reece Martin's videos to help understand the complexity of the problem, but I'd also suggest City Nerd and Not Just Bikes for additional takes, particularly that having successful regional rail that largely drives to the train station is not necessarily a "win" in that it just makes the suburbs and ex-burbs more car-reliant and "stroad" filled, kinds of places that totally miss the point of improved lives and not enslavement to 4 hr round trip commutes daily. Toronto's reputation as having the worst traffic in North America is well earned (though Chicago can't be far behind), but it may accidentally be an indication of getting some things right in terms of less highway access to downtown. The traffic is partially due to an underbuilt transit system for city size -- Toronto has grown like no other city in North America in the last 20 years, and a population that is very car = freedom-oriented. It's a state of mind thing that is slowly changing, but after embarking on a decades-long infrastructure improvement needed to deal with a city this size. Not just transit, but all infrastructure. It is going to be worse for so long before it gets better, and sadly much will not be improved in my lifetime. I'm of the generation that cries the most about this, but I understand that we must accept all inconveniences to create a great city for generations to come. It's no accident that some of the most popular urbanists call or called Toronto home. We see what unanticipated population explosion does when it's not a part of a cities planning. Toronto is Jane Jacob's home of choice, though I wonder what she'd think if she was around now. Much of what she loved about the city is still here, but also much of what she hated about other cities is also here too.
The province and the city dropped the ball after they cancelled the Spadina Expressway. We got the promise of "transit, transit, transit" as the consolation prize, but after 1974, that practically ended. New subway stations? Oh, maybe after the next elections. New subway _lines?_ Maybe next century. Literally! The Sheppard Line didn't open until 2002, and it's a stub that does little but get people out of their cars at Fairview Mall before they have to cross the 401 and head downtown. At least there's _that._ It's only been in the last ten years that Toronto's actually started really building new transit that doesn't look and smell like yet another bus route, and even then, it's ridiculous. NASA _literally_ took less time from JFK's promise to actually putting Apollo 11 on the moon than Metrolinx has taken to build and open the Eglinton LRT! 1961-1969 vs. 2010-...whenever!
Thanks for the video. Love both these cities. Big shout out to the ravines and beltline trail in To! You mentioned the ravines, but they probably deserve an entire video just for them. I get the feeling that people who don’t live in Toronto have no idea that there is this incredible network of what is essentially wilderness trails through various parts of the city, and they also connect to the beltline trail which is similar to Chicago’s Bloomingdale Trail in that it is an old railway converted to a linear park. having lived in Toronto, I feel like any residential location close to the ravines or beltline is a solid 15% more desirable, and that’s a lot of the city. In what other city can you go on a legitimate wilderness hike from one neighbourhood to another?
I'm a Hawks fan who would love to go to Chicago and my mother is a Leafs fan who would love to go to Toronto. Maybe some day we'll get to visit them both!? Who knows...
I lived in Toronto for 35 years (and I don't live that far from it now). You captured the texture of the city very well. I've always been curious how it compares to Chicago.
This is one of the biggest cultural differences between Canadians and Americans: the size of suburban lots. American like huge expanses of grass, and spend a lot of time mowing it, but seem to do very little with their land other than grow grass. Canadians seems to prefer smaller lots, but seem to do much more with it, and hate mowing lawns.
one thing for Toronto transit is the extensive streetcar system! I don’t know about Chicago, but in Toronto a lot of people only need to take streetcars to get around
The difference is because a lot of Chicago was developing more quickly pre- and beginning of car, whereas Toronto has really expanded post-car .Toronto also had a massive fire that burned down a large amount of the older city. Montreal was the largest city until the 70s.
Chicago native here, my father was Canadian. My father grew up out in Chatham, but my cousins all live in or around Toronto. I always loved visiting Toronto, I just felt very "at home" there because of the similarities. The neighborhoods, shopping, transit, all felt very familiar. The other thing that I loved about Toronto was that when speaking to local area folks, they noticed that I would pronounce the name of the city more like a native: "Turano" (leaving the second "T" out and pretty much pronouncing the first "o" more like a soft "u"). I always found that charming and ironic. In Chicago, we have an Italian bread company named "Turano Bread" which sounds like how Toronto residents say the name of their city. Ahhh...Midwestern accents are awesome! "Semi-Rural" suburbs are technically called "Ex-Urbs." I actually grew up out in one of the Chicago Ex-urbs: St. Charles, IL. Granted, now with so much urban sprawl my hometown is technically now an official "Suburb" and also a small City on it's own. As far as Transit, Toronto beats Chicago because it was better planned out because public transportation was built into the city planning. While with Chicago, public transit came much later as most traffic into the city initially was by wagons and interstate train cars bringing in livestock. Chicago's public transit has to compete with it's extensive surface roads and highways.
I live in Mississauga, there is a mayoral election coming in up and it kinda seems like a lot of people here seem to think that this is just farmland outside of Toronto and not an actual city of more than 700 thousand people.
I have varied interests and follow a lot of RUclips channels. I have to say, the comments here are some of the most intelligent takes I have seen on YT. I’m from Toronto and go to Chicago about once a year, and agree with so many of the insights here.
I'm originally from Toronto but have lived for several years in Los Angeles. IMO Chicago is a far more beautiful and grandeur city than Toronto. The architecture in Chicago is stunning, where in Toronto it is bland, and cheap looking. The main street in Chicago is the very grand Michigan Avenue (The Magnificent Mile) where in Toronto it is the shabby looking Yonge Street. The lakefront in Chicago blows the lakefront in Toronto away. I always found the lakefront in Toronto depressing, where in Chicago it is beautiful. As a visitor Chicago has much more interesting things to do. Also, Chicago has 2 world class universities, The University of Chicago and Northwestern University. Where Toronto has just one, The University of Toronto, where my father graduated in 1956.
Toronto has 3 universities: U of T, Toronto Metropolitan (formerly Ryerson) and York. They are all excellent universities. Metro focuses on practical, applied and polytechnic type stuff that will definitely get you a job while York concentrates on Fine Arts, philosophy and the things that are the spice of life.
@@sorrywrongplanet8873I only listed Universities that were world ranked in the top 100, which Chicago has 2 and Toronto 1. Now according to Wikipedia Chicago has a total of 28 Universities to Toronto 3.
@@adorabell4253 The main shopping street of a city should be more like New York City’s 5th Avenue or Madison Avenue not Yonge Street. I also don’t find University that grand, certainly no comparison to Chicago’s Michigan Avenue.
6:31 I would say the anti-social behaviour of playing music out loud and even smoking (or at least vaping) is increasingly common on the Montreal Metro too, it's not just a Chicago thing
The refusal to accept "big city" status seems like a pretty broad North American issue. Lots of places would be more thriving if they'd accepted that lots of people want to live and work there, earlier in their histories. I don't know if it's a relic of historical racism--and racial segregation of white suburbs, black downtowns--but anti-urbanism in North America is well past its sell-by date.
Toronto does not even remotely follow the "white suburbs and black downtown" layout of Midwest cities like Chicago. If anything it's the opposite with the suburbs having a lower percentage of white people
Can’t compare Canada and the United States in terms of race relations in cities tbh. In the U.S. white flight led to white wealthy suburbs and poor minority cities while Canada’s population and its immigrants have all been moving into cities for the past 50 years (the same timespan that Americans have been leaving cities). Canada’s mix of demographics and urbanity are far more comparable to Australia and New Zealand while I think the U.S. is most similar to Brazil in this aspect
It's not only a component of racism, but coldwar thinking In prioritizing single family homes over apartment blocs. So it's basically not only racism, but anti-socialism as well.
Chicago looks iconic.. what a breath taking architecture mann!! And then there are people who say the two cities look alike I have trust issues now lol
As stated, Chicago’s growth is much older, but the fact it has more of a gradual density drop off is not a positive. Toronto’s density up the Yonge Street corridor and dropping off quickly on both sides was by design and planning that was done by examining world class cities including Chicago and understanding that they were shortsighted in that regard. A dense corridor vs growth in all directions gives more people over a longer distance access to urban amenities while preserving more green space and reducing commute times.
While I'm not a professional planner, I know that maintenance concerns usually get underestimated. Any Data on the costs of such big and heavy buildings right next to such a humid environment? I know the Champlain towers was because of Florida floriding, but all projects cut corners in some fashion, And that's a lot of people in a small area. You don't just have analyze by what you have to gain, but also what you have to lose.
I like that you showed the metro areas & how they can vary depending on how you measure it. So often I see people say Chicago is way bigger with 9.5 million in its Metro population vs Toronto as 6 million without realizing the Toronto metro population is far greater if you account further distanced towns & cities as well like Chicago does, then you see a closer comparison.
I live in Toronto and I've been to Chicago a few times. Aesthetically speaking I prefer Chicago especially the downtown area. Toronto can't compete here. Downtown Toronto is chaotic with boring architecture. Chicago has that WOW factor.
Agreed I think downtown Chicago is way more impressive than downtown Toronto but on the flip side, the non-downtown parts of Toronto are much nicer and safer than the non-downtown parts of Chicago proper
@@Entername-md1ev Agree and disagree. Chicago has some very nice non downtown parts like Logan Square, Wrigleyville and Lincoln Park etc.....but i know what you're getting at.
I'm excited to see Chicago this year. I've lived in most of Canada's big cities: Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton, but now live in Northern BC, in the Rockies. I rarely get to a city much larger than Prince George, BC (80,000 people) so Chicago will be an interesting adventure.
Live in Chicago, love Toronto. They really are so similar. Tip for Chicago though is for crosswalks without lights or stop signs, you have to just start walking into the street. The cars will stop for you
you didn't mention Toronto's streetcar system which has almost 250k passengers per day on weekdays. They operate 5 car long trains which makes them function almost as a street-level subway system. The TTC also offers a 2-h free transfer window, someone who hops on a bus could get off and get on a streetcar or subway without having to pay again.
@@OhTheUrbanity they're closer to busses in real function but they feel like a subway or train when you ride them. There is no bus engine noise or bounce in the ride
I'm from Chicago, and when I visited Toronto, I was shocked at how similar it is. It's basically Chicago drawn from memory. What we do have is an accessible lakefront full of trails, parks, and beaches for recreation that Toronto lacks.
I dunno, I tend to disagree. While you do have the lakefront, I find that Toronto dwarfs Chicago when it comes to parks & trails. Never saw that much greenery in the inner city that equates to Toronto's ravine system.
@moho472 I prefer our 15 miles of natural lakefront parks. If you want nature, the suburbs have forest preserves. Having forests breaking up a city creates dead zones
@@berrylarry20 To each their own. Personally, it's nice to have the ravines integrated with the city. It allows people to have long hikes and see much of the untouched system connect with the lake front and other parts without having to rely on commuting in a car.
Thank you so much for making this video. Your avant guard sensibility on cities and urbanism as a whole seems unmatched, IMHO. I'm a San Franciscan who counts myself a Chicagophile through and through, but Toronto has been on top of my travel list and I agree that Chicago could learn a lot from the newer shinier "upstart" on its fellow Great Lakes.
the note on limited density reminds me a lot of Milwaukee as well. Lots of neighborhoods pretty close to downtown that feel like nice transit-accessible 'burbs instead of being more walk-up like, despite having decent density because the houses are close together and 90% duplexes.
I love these city comparisons, & of course your channel, but I feel that a few wins for Toronto were overlooked. Statcan's new population estimates have the city of Toronto at over 3.1 million as of July 2023, which given their similar area, makes it denser overall than the city of Chicago. Far more people in Toronto live in hi-rise buildings throughout the entire city than in Chicago (Toronto has twice as many hi-rises as Chicago), and even the old victorian rowhouse & semi-detached neighbourhoods in Toronto have higher densities than Chicago's old walk-up areas. There are also 3 new supertall skyscrapers under construction in downtown Toronto now, with several more approved or proposed. Unlike Chicago, Toronto is currently building several new rapid transit lines, & the commuter rail system will be on another level with GO RER in development. The Greater Toronto-Hamilton area grew by about 250,000 people since last year (more than any other North American metro area), Chicago's metro area can only dream of that kind of growth.
1. I used 2021 data from Canada to more closely match the 2020 US census. I didn't want to use more recent US population data because that means relying on the ACS which, from what I understand, can be a little wonky with population estimates. 2. Toronto's older semi-detached neighbourhoods are decently dense but, from my analyses, not as dense as Chicago's neighbourhoods (unless maybe we're counting the areas that have problems with vacant lots). 3. The points about future improvements are all true (although I think GO RER is a lot more exciting than the LRTs) but we intentionally avoided spending too much time talking about future trajectories due to time constraints. This video was already longer than normal for us.
Very nice video, thanks for the insights! I've visited both cities and found a lot to like. Some of my close friends have lived in Chicago in really nice older midrise apts, so the observation about housing diversity is definitely borne out in my experience!
chicago has so much transit potential. i can only imagine what the city could become if the L and regional network were modernized, expanded, and improved with better service and infrastructure.
Good to see you guys posting again! Love your videos, and style. Once again, thank you for the great content! I would be interested to see if you guys have a video in the works about how the midwest might experience huge urban improvement over the next 25-40 years due to climate change and those models.
Ravines are awesome! I guess if you like nature, and you're an urbanist channel, ok I got it now. I used to live very close to the Humber River ravine and loved biking there recreationally. Funny, never occurred to me to bike to work, I did walk tho, 30 minutes each way, but I am from Etobicoke, so...
Obviously, a lot of the differences between Toronto and Chicago are due to the eras of their main developments - Chicago growing very big earlier than Toronto. The differences shoe what was considered ideal at the times. I am sure that will continue as long as both cities grow in the future.
As an American who watches a lot of urbanism related videos on youtube, I've been learning a lot more about the built environment in Canada, but I must say that this is the first video that really highlighted the history of those places. I honestly am shocked to hear that Toronto was historically a much smaller city than Chicago and they only recently find themselves as peers. I would have previously assumed that urban trends that affected cities in the United States would have similar affects on cities in Canada, yet I now understand how incorrect that was. I'm now much more curious about how Canada's historical differences from the United States might have manifested in different growth patterns. Did the waves of immigration that had such an impact on American cities bypass Canada due to different immigration policies? Did Canada's place in the British commonwealth bring European style architecture and planning techniques that it's southern neighbors rejected? I'd love to see more video essays on how history has impacted urban development outside of the United States, and would also welcome any other online resources people might suggest on the subject.
The channel "Geography by Geoff" has some videos that address the subject of that history. One in particular discusses why eastern Canada is relatively unpopulated compared to the eastern US, and the historical reasons for that.
Something else that is interesting is that the suburbs of Chicago typically have a historic denser core that you can clearly see got just sprawled out, most commonly around Metra stops.Toronto's suburbs are interesting in the sense where that sort of historical core does not exist. Also a lot of what's considered to be a suburb of Chicago are also clearly some small towns that just got roped into the sprawl of Chicago's suburbs like Joliet, Elgin, and Aurora. That isn't really the case in Toronto due to the fact that its a newer city.
I live on the outskirts of Chicagoland, and I'm planning my move to Chicago. We have a Metra train that goes directly to Downtown , and I love taking it anytime I go to the city. Driving on the Kennedy tollway makes me so nervous, so being able to ride the train is nice. The only problem I have with it is frequency, especially on weekends. Metra needs to increase frequency and stop catering to the old 9-5 commuter crowd.
It's this hostile behavior, more than anything, that has stunted the low post-pandemic ridership on the Chicago Transit Authority. This is why I've started biking to work instead of riding the 'L'. It's why a few of my female coworkers have started car-pooling. Some might attribute it to the homeless people on the ''L". I attribute it to self indulgent pinheads who don't believe that the rules apply to them and they know they won't get caught.
great video. I love living in Toronto but you let us off easy on traffic and the waterfront. We (Toronto) completely f'd up the waterfront when we allowed private developers to build condos instead of making it the public space it should have (like Chicago).
Well researched video, the density in Toronto might be one of the reasons we have an extreme housing crisis at the moment, while afaik chicago prices are still fairly affordable.
Chicago has been losing population for several years, which is why prices have more or less plateaued as compared to Toronto. The inflows of population into Toronto is the cause of the stratospheric prices, and housing starts can’t keep up with population growth.
@@oldschoolben438 exactly you can’t compare these two cities without mentioning how their population growth is going in opposite directions. Chicago city proper’s population peaked in the 1950s during a time when Toronto still had less than 1 million people. Chicago has had a declining population for nearly 7 decades now while Toronto’s population has grown almost too fast in the past 20-30 years
Chicago is also extremely sprawling while the GTA ecosystem is protected by the greenbelt. It's easy to be "affordable" when you can build out endlessly
NIMBY's are killing Toronto. Those ppl still think it's about them and they still think they live in a small town. It's honestly annoying that they're the reason for not making Toronto have more mid rises in where there's single family homes. It's ridiculous.
Suburbs in the GTA are much denser than your average US suburb. There tends be a lot more mixed home types as well with single homes, duplexes and townhomes all the in same subdivision. The lot sizes are significantly smaller too with many newer builds barely having a backyard and the front yards adhering to minimums.
If you enjoyed this video, you'll probably enjoy Reece Martin's interesting series comparing transit in the two cities: reecemartin.substack.com/p/table-of-contents
Meters? Are you Canadian?
@@P-el4zd Yes, we live in Montreal.
@@OhTheUrbanity Make sense. Well you Canadian should switch back to the imperial system -lol. 😉 The British are starting to use the imperial system again.
@@P-el4zdthe British never stopped using imperial. We adopted metric because it makes more sense & is easier to use. The rest of the world uses metric why should we switch away?
Toronto is seeing a super tower boom, and will best Chicago very soon in the tall building department.
Montreal Vs Boston urbanity showdown would be super interesting!
We visited Boston a few years ago and enjoyed it. Would be fun to get back sometime.
@@OhTheUrbanity we beg you to not do seatle/portland vs vancouver, because the us side will be absolutely crushed and lose in every single category.
Montreal would win that hands down
Would be more interesting honestly. Chicago and Toronto are both pretty mid when it comes to urbanism but Montreal and Boston are actually top tier
@@sjasonwang7384 Yeah, Boston is just...an endless source of frustration these days.
I dream of the day that Chicago and Toronto are connected via high speed rail (with Detroit serving as the midpoint). Maybe when I’m 80 they’ll get started on that.
EDIT:
Me: *ends post with joke about how it’s never going to happen*
Comments: “pfft, like that will ever happen. Keep dreaming, bozo!”
Guys, reading comprehension is essential.
Why...? The train journey would maybe take 8 hours or even more and flight would take less than 2 hours.
So you will be born in 2034! 🎉
@@dennyc9159I think you missed the words HIGH SPEED rail, which means it’ll be as fast as flying, even faster if you compare boarding times, border checks, etf
@@dennyc9159 you’re correct that hardly anyone would take the entire route from Chicago to Toronto, but that’s fine because there are enough mid-sized population centers between them to warrant improved services along the route. Connecting Chicago to Detroit and Detroit to Toronto, and putting stops in the small to mid-sized cities like Ann Arbor and London ON, would be the primary goal, but having some trains run the entire route would provide a good alternative to driving or flying, especially if your start point or destination doesn’t have international flights.
We did a research project in grad school on potential HSR mainline corridors (not including spurs) in the US and Canada. We only found a few that were viable, ie the Acela corridor, SF to LA. Chicago-Detroit-Toronto was next, with improved efficiency if branch lines to Montreal, Buffalo, Milwaukee etc were eventually built. Texas Central, which is more likely to actually happen over the next couple decades, was ranked lower than that corridor because there are so few dense population centers on the route between Houston and Dallas that could feed into the system, and also because both of those cities have abysmal local transit services, which makes getting around after your train ride a complete pain. Not to say that one isn’t worth building, but Texas needs to stop screwing around and densify their cities if rail is going to work there.
@@dennyc9159 Not really! high speed rails are much faster than you may think, going up to 300km/h or 200mph, covering the 800km or 400 miles in around 3 hours. Also, Booking, commute to the airport and luggage bleed hours for planes, while rail can come more frequently and board on and off more efficiently. Though, Funkenstein's sarcasm does remark the obvious, we won't see any of this infrastructure soon. High speed rail is very expensive and this route is only going to serve a very specific demographic.
not just two of the biggest great lake cities. Two of the biggest and best in North America. I really like them both.
LOL!!
Toronto is a dysfunctional dump.
I hate them both! Gross! Oceans are where it’s at bruv
@@iamzuckerburgerwhat did the great lakes do to bro
According to India , Toornto is the best city . According to Tom TOm traffic index 2023 Toronto ranked the 3 worst traffic and polluted city in the world . Toronto subway is old, noisy and falling apart like all the roads. Toornto has a blend architecture , no identity, high crimes, homeless and drugs everywhere . Chicago is the most sustaianble city and the best architectureand culture ( Identity )
@@Swiss2025 This bot is making up some bullshit. Can't even spell lol. Toronto is superior in quite literally every way. Fastest growing city in NA for a reason
I cannot emphasize enough how much Chicago needs to fix the smoking on trains issue. I absolutely hate how city leadership has been failing for years in that regard
Oh yes... But, you know, it can get a lot worse than just smoking lol
Hey a lot of folks are doing what they can, they recently blocked the appointment of a completely unqualified director for CTA. Once Dorval is ousted I think things will improve. We had peak ridership since COVID last month. Get involved in local politics and make your voice heard.
@@jesusmahman Don’t worry, I absolutely am. I just don’t live in Chicago anymore, so I can’t really participate in local politics there
@@xilingsinqueso A better question is what is being smoked.
Smoking on the trains wouldn't be so bad if you knew another one was coming in a few minutes. It's not uncommon to see 20-45 minute waits for some train lines on the weekend. I'm livid our current mayor finds this acceptable
Very happy you mentioned Toronto’s Greenbelt, it is never mentioned in videos about the city. (Would have been nice to show a graphic though)
Our idiot premier almost killed it
@@AlexGetsAroundTObe grateful you didn’t have our idiot premier, who would have probably opened up a bunch of coal mines in it or something.
Toronto always had a hard edge between urban and rural even before the greenbelt.
RCMP is investigating our Premier for that.
@@AlexGetsAroundTO I'm not going to defend Doug's actions, but he didn't even come close to "killing it", the greenbelt plan involved removing at most a subdivision worth of greenbelt. It was like, .01% of all designated greenbelt (and even that might be an overestimate).
Sadly Chicago could be more ahead had it not sold its on-street parking to private investors. Now it's difficult to change many streets
Every councillor who agreed to that deserves jail time.
@@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999 Thankfully the contract is set to run out in the next few years. Since it did cause Chicagoans to become accustomed to much more expensive parking fees, that may have helped aspects of developing alternative modes of transportation in Chicago, at least long term. But the deal itself had a lot of problems.
@@unconventionalideas5683 true. Frustration with parking can lead to some seeking alternative modes of travel, and that in of itself isn't bad. The more who choose to utilize mass transit the better. But the method is wrong.
All because the scum who always manage to worm their way into public office are so morally bankrupt inside they steadfastly WILL NOT TAX WHERE THE MONEY IS- AT THE TOP!!! BECAUSE THEY'RE ORDERED NOT TO BUY THE FILTH WHO OWN THEM- that being big business and very high-income private households; because if they did why TF would they need to be betraying the public trust by selling off public assets!?!
And it is a betrayal, it should be seen as a corrupt and criminal act and not only should it utterly deep-six any future chances of election any of them seek to have, they should be criminally charged with serious fraud and corruption. IF YOU SELL OFF PUBLIC GOODS AND SERVICES YOU SHOULD BE SEEN AS A CRIMINAL, FULL STOP! In essence you are destroying and throwing away what isn't yours to give!! It's not private property are go to me the crime is beyond dispute!
Of course they won't be tho. Every big city is a cesspool of scum all greasing each other's palms and protecting each other.
We keep electing the same amoral corrupt easily bought political scum and then we wonder why things don't change. I desperately wish there was an alternative.
If only there a way to get rid of politicians altogether, because in this country I don't care if they come red or blue, I believe they are all at their core absolute trash. They're all destructive and they're ALL malignant narcissists. The exist to serve themselves at everyone else's expense & they do not care about the harm they cause. They're there to serve the elites and they could give a flying fig if the rest of us drop dead.
I know that's a little melodramatic but I believe it's true.
@@unconventionalideas5683 true. Frustration with parking can lead to some seeking alternative modes of travel, and that in of itself isn't bad. The more who choose to utilize mass transit the better. But the method is wrong.
All because the scum who always manage to worm their way into public office are so morally bankrupt inside they steadfastly WILL NOT TAX WHERE THE MONEY IS- AT THE FKG TOP!!! BECAUSE THEY'RE ORDERED NOT TO BUY THE FILTH WHO OWN THEM- that being big business and very high-income private households; because if they did (tax) why TF would they need to be betraying the public trust by selling off public assets!?!
And it is a betrayal, it should be seen as a corrupt and criminal act and not only should it absolutely deep-six any future chances of election any of them seek to have, they should be criminally charged with serious fraud and corruption. IF YOU SELL OFF PUBLIC GOODS AND SERVICES YOU SHOULD BE SEEN AS A CRIMINAL, FULL STOP! In essence you are destroying and throwing away what isn't yours to give!! It's not private property, it's the public's, which IS *THEIR* JOB TO SAFEGUARD, ergo to me the crime is beyond dispute.
Of course they won't tho. Every big city is a cesspool of scum all greasing each other's palms and protecting each other.
We keep electing the same amoral corrupt easily bought political scum and then we wonder why things don't change. I desperately wish there was an alternative.
If only there a way to get rid of politicians altogether, because in this country I don't care if they come red or blue, I believe they are all at their core absolute trash. They're all destructive and they're ALL malignant narcissists. The exist to serve themselves at everyone else's expense & they do not care about the harm they cause. They're there to serve the elites and they could give a flying fig if the rest of us drop dead.
I know that's a little melodramatic but I believe it's true.
@unconventionalideas5683 true. Frustration with parking can lead to some seeking alternative modes of travel, and that in of itself isn't bad. The more who choose to utilize mass transit the better. But the method is wrong.
All because the scum who always manage to worm their way into public office are so morally bankrupt inside they steadfastly WILL NOT TAX WHERE THE MONEY IS- AT THE FKG TOP!!! BECAUSE THEY'RE ORDERED NOT TO BUY THE FILTH WHO OWN THEM- that being big business and very high-income private households; because if they did (tax) why TF would they need to be betraying the public trust by selling off public assets!?!
And it is a betrayal, it should be seen as a corrupt and criminal act and not only should it absolutely deep-six any future chances of election any of them seek to have, they should be criminally charged with serious fraud and corruption. IF YOU SELL OFF PUBLIC GOODS AND SERVICES YOU SHOULD BE SEEN AS A CRIMINAL, FULL STOP! In essence you are destroying and throwing away what isn't yours to give!! It's not private property, it's the public's, which IS *THEIR* JOB TO SAFEGUARD, ergo to me the crime is beyond dispute.
Of course they won't tho. Every big city is a cesspool of scum all greasing each other's palms and protecting each other.
We keep electing the same amoral corrupt easily bought political scum and then we wonder why things don't change. I desperately wish there was an alternative.
If only there a way to get rid of politicians altogether, because in this country I don't care if they come red or blue, I believe they are all at their core absolute trash. They're all destructive and they're ALL malignant narcissists. The exist to serve themselves at everyone else's expense & they do not care about the harm they cause. They're there to serve the elites and they could give a flying fig if the rest of us drop dead.
I know that's a little melodramatic but I believe it's true.
Amazing video, I've been saying for years that Toronto and Chicago should have a closer sister city/twin city relationship because we can both learn so much from each other. Imagine if politicians from Toronto met with politicians from Chicago and exchanged ideas and discussed problems and how they solved them on a regular basis, both cities could become the best versions of themselves! GO and Metra would also really benefit from some kind of an exchange like that as both operate in similar contexts (although with some important differences).
The chicagoland vs. GTA comparison was also a good one. I like the way you ended up summarising it with the note about the golden horseshoe having more distinct centres.
Politicians don’t care about people
Toronto has no identity , no soul, no creativity, horrible subway falling apart and has more in commun with India .
They do exchange ideas, we have had a signed sister city agreement since 1991. Toronto Mayor Rob Ford had quite a famous trip to Chicago in 2012.
Sure, Chicago can teach Toronto a thing or two about crime
@@Coltoidwhat happened on the trip ? Lol
Omgosh, when you mentioned many Torontonian’s inability to accept itself as a big city, still stuck in a provincialism backwater mentality, and waxing nostalgia about the good ole days of a surface parking lot littered downtown, those are the exact things I get flamed for on just about every “Old Vancouver” Facebook page! Is it a Canadian thing, where we are so identified with natural beauty, picture perfect shimmering lakes, and snow capped mountains, that we’re a little embarrassed to have a bunch of cities spoil it?
I knew it wasn’t going to work out years ago with a girlfriend when I took her to my favourite lookout/viewpoint of Vancouver. High on an urban hill I proudly pointed out the city skyline looking crisp and organized against the mountains, and surrounded by water, and her response was, “Beautiful, too bad there’s a city there!” The beginning of the end of that romance. For too many people, the worst thing Vancouver ever did was to become a city. Expo ruined it, and the Olympics finished the job. To read some people’s assessment of the hell waiting for us all, you would think Vancouver was the first urban area to approach 3 million people, with Armageddon just waiting for that to happen.
Every single world city a Canadian tourist wants to visit breached 3 million years ago, and yet......it makes me crazy, and the fact that we share some of that with Toronto is quite fascinating. Hey Montreal, are you cool being a big city, or is it something you’re always apologizing for?
I agree. People need to accept Toronto's growing prominence as a global city as well as the people in Vancouver and many othet Canadian cities. This NIMBYism is what stunts growth in our cities. Go Canada! 🇨🇦
Because Toronto’s growth is complete unnatural and unsustainable. 2 million non permanent residents since Covid and the countries systems and economy are collapsing the job market here is completely filled with immigrants and born Canadians are not able to get a job. Toronto was never supposed to be a huge global population centre like it has become. This country was sold out to corporations and politicians and Canadians are tremendously suffering because of it
I think it's attitude is realistic. Chicago is a well established world renowned city while Toronto has not really found itself. It is a work in progress. I don't think despite the beliefs of some in the west, it thinks of itself as a major city. Toronto has many great things going for it such as it is ranked fourth in the world for live theatre but in many ways it has not developed a mature personality. it is an adulescent.
@@jonmce1 which is why we need to accept it as a growing city, finding its identity
I mean you definitely get that sort of sentiment in a lot of cities in North America. San Francisco really gets that feeling.
The weirdest phenomenon you see in a lot of cities in the US is a romanticism for like the “bad times.” Like I know a ton of NYers who “miss the 70s.”
EXCELLENT video! It provides detailed and timely information and relevant videos. It is well-written, well-edited, concise, and educational. Wow, this is a rare find among chat-GPT-written drivel, with irrelevant stock footage being standard these days. BRAVO!!
I'm so glad you captured all of the brand new cycling infrastructure in Chicago! it's crazy how much cycling has improved in the city in literally just the last five years - we are lucky to have a few aldermen that are passionate about supporting biking in their neighborhoods, as well as a ton of community bike advocacy organizations!
We have lived here for almost 4 years, and every year I see more and more families biking in our neighborhood (including us!). Chicago still has a long way to go but it gets so much better every single year. I’m excited to see what it looks like in 10 years if this pace keeps up
I heard talk of an extension of the Dickens Greenway to the 606 trail. I hope it happens because that would make for an awesome east-west bridge. Much better than any of the options I've encountered so far for getting across the river
Agreed. I think the post-pandemic lockdown transit numbers are down between bike commuters (yay), WFH, and drivers (boo).
@@charlienyc1 Yeah I think a decent chunk of people started biking as a response to poor CTA service these days. I wish we were making progress on biking AND transit
@@LoveToday8 Indeed. At least minor improvements are being made. The new bike lane on Milwaukee between Diversey & Addison is something I'll use daily, for example.
Don't forget the Ludwig Meis van der Rohe connection. He designed several notable buildings in Chicago, including the Chicago Federal Complex and 860 - 880 Lake Shore Drive. His last project was Toronto's iconic Toronto - Dominion Centre, which was a huge part of Toronto's progress from "Hogtown" to an internationally prominent megacity.
Toronto still was a created city by 2-amalgamations. The second one forced by your gov when if voted never would have occurred. It was creating a much larger city in a day twice. Chicago did have one massive annexation in like the 1880s of areas around it as early townships and suburbs needing Chicago water, sewer lines installed etc.
Chicago had after its Great Fire of 1871 many Architects contributing to a new city not built of as much wood, but brick and steel and massive growth as the fastest growing city in the world for some years.
Mies less-is-more gave us glass boxes. Just Chicago had many decades of other eras of architects that left their mark creating a core of a variety of all of them as not to be all blue-glass or boxes. It has its share.
Mies liked the black box. Other eras gave Chicago green to blue boxes that also at least break things up over so many that same blue glass. Post-Modernism also was a superior era vs Mies boxes that was 1980s 90s. That also gave more variety to Chicago over continued all boxes.
Sadly, it can get boxes today though its superior larger ones do better. Chicago also chose the PODIUM high-rise to skyscraper. That has parking lower levels but newer post mid-90s ones still got retail street-level the city basically required.
Toronto chose all parking must be underground in a high-rise to skyscraper. Still street-level can be banal anyway. Good podiums at least hide that parking.... not all.
Just so many differences by legacy, history, being in different nations, governments, money's cities get from their federal governments is HUGLY DIFFERENT. Toronto metro gets many multiple Billions $$$ from Canada's vs Chicago lucky to get 1-Billion when Obama left office in matching funds by raising taxes of those living near lines to get upgrades.
Chicago could do a lot more with many Billions for new subways Toronto can and does get. JUST SO MANY DIFFERENCES in LEGACY architecture to all the damage the US north saw from de-industrialization, massive interstate/expressways thru its cities destroying neighborhoods. Redlining by the US gov for FHA low interest loans in the 1930s to post WW2 GI loans where minority neighborhoods WOULD NOT see approved loans banks were given redlined maps of areas to loan and those to avoid where 1-2% went to minorities even. SO THE US GOV policies even did so much damage.
Add Blockbusting pushing White-flight that lead to areas declining by taking wealth and retail with them. At least Chicago in the 50s early 60s still had areas of the city to grow into besides just suburbs and a very diversified economy vs a Detroit that helped it with a downtown already with key Corporate might.
If you’d like that sort of architecture, you should come over to Detroit to Lafayette Park, which is abundantly full of his architecture actually, it has the only ground level townhouse development that was ever designed along with several high-rise Towers downtown. It’s called Lafayette Park and it’s beautiful.
Native Chicagoan here. When I went to Toronto for the first time for ~5 days last summer the thing that stuck out to me was precisely how *unlike* each other the two cities are, especially considering how often they’re compared. At a really nuts-and-bolts level-and you guys did speak to some of this-very few major components of the built environment, demographics, planning philosophies or history of the two metropolises really share much common DNA. To the degree there are parallels, they’re mostly pretty cosmetic. The scale and depth of segregation and inequality in Chicago, which it’s fine that you guys didn’t dwell on too much, would be shocking to any Canadian, from any city, even if they knew to expect it. And I think conversely, the scale and depth of upward pressure on housing costs in Toronto and the unaffordability it’s resulted in, despite some localized problems in Chicago in this realm, would be shocking to anyone from Chicago or any other part of the U.S. Midwest. And I wish that aspect of the contrast between these cities-which you guys do a really good job on in general-had been highlighted a bit more. The other big Chicago thing immediately comes to mind which would’ve warranted at least a mention is our notorious history with high-rise public housing and the careless and destructive manner in which that flawed 1960s-era phenomenon was dismantled, mostly in the 2000s, and what that has all wrought for the city. You can’t talk about everything, but I think these are some elements that a full discussion, even with obvious time constraints, probably should have included. Don’t get me wrong, though: You guys did a great overall job here and I can tell that you got around to many parts of the city-including hands-down, indisputably, its best neighborhood: Rogers Park! I hope you stopped at R Public House and/or Jarvis Tavern when you were at the Jarvis Red Line stop!
There is no comparison with regard to segregation and income inequality as Toronto does not have the unfortunate demographic problem that most cities in the US have, at least not even remotely at the same scale. For this, Canadian cities are very fortunate, despite other issues they may have.
@@jayhpaq
I disagree. Toronto DOES have a HUGE problem with the same demographic of people that Chicago does. Luckily that population is much smaller here than it is there otherwise Toronto would be truly doomed and be Chicago 2.0 when it comes to crime and violence.
Even now with their relative small numbers we have massive crime problems and its disheartened to hear about a shooting or stabbing going on EVERY SINGLE DAY in the GTA when this wasn't the case even 15-20 years ago.
Also I WISH Toronto/GTA population wouldn't be growing so quickly when unless you have an awesome paying job then good luck trying to buy a home in Toronto and even in the greater GTA these days. And to top it off the Canadian government seems hell bent on making these issues 100x worse with allow 1+ MILLION people into the country every year when we don't have the housing, healthcare, infrastructure to support even our existing population let alone hundreds of thousands of new people each year.
Rogers Park always makes me sad when I visit it. Not because it’s bad, actually so far from it. It makes me sad because it’s a stark reminder of what Chicago could be and what it really isn’t. It’s the only diverse neighborhood in the whole that isn’t just a university. It’s not some trendy community of suburbanites to be. It’s a real living place with life and identity that’s all its own. It was one of the only neighborhoods in Chicago that I spent time in that didn’t fill me with revulsion.
@@UzumakiNaruto_good point - if we had more criminals there would be more crime. Chicago's demographic is largely people born in Chicago or the USA, bringing in 10% of the amount of newcomers than Toronto brings in from overseas and from moving within Canada. Chicago's shewtings per year are also nearly 10x more than in Toronto. Your idea that more foriegners means more criime is entirely false and Chicago was probably the worst example you could've used.
@@jonjonson5730
*Your idea that more foriegners means more criime is entirely false and Chicago was probably the worst example you could've used.*
I never said that ALL foreigners cause crime and violence in Canada, but rather that some minorities cause much, MUCH more crime than other groups of minorities. This is an indisputable fact that there are a couple of demographics of people who cause the bulk of violent crimes in Canada and that if you could magically make them disappear Canada's crime and violence rates would drop to historic low levels overnight. That's how many problems these specific groups cause because we allowed them to get out of control and were too afraid to hold them accountable for their actions for fear of being called 'racist'.
Whether these few demographics have been here for generations or they have only arrived in Canada for a few years they all mostly have their origins from the same regions of the world. This is fact and all you have to do is look at most wanted lists photos in Canada and see that its no different to many most wanted lists in the US.
Also ask yourself why do you think that the Canadian government absolutely refuses to gather and release race based crime data even after all this time? The FBI does it and we've seen the results of the data they've gathered and I'm 100% sure that the Canadian government doesn't want to do it because they're afraid that the data they gather will also return the same results. Namely that not all diversity 'is our strength' or is good for our nation and for a country that has built its reputation as being the most diverse and multicultural in the world that's not a good look.
As a native Torontonian (East Yorker) now living in Chicago, I've thought about this for ages -- congratulations. But you downplay the importance of the 26 miles of accessible lakefront in Chicago. The Toronto Islands and the other beach you mention are hardly comparable.
Is it 26 uninterrupted miles?
@@ianstuart5660Essentially, Yes. Where the Chicago river crosses, you can take a bridge that has separat pedestrian & bike lanes, both protected from car traffic. The Lakefront path is pretty sweet, actually!
Please tell me that Chicago is not as crappy as Toronto. Toronto is a disaster with nut jobs everywhere in the city. Not to mention the cost of living and passive aggressive culture.
Skipeed right over the traffic in Toronto as well. Oh well
@@SMOOVKILL1in that part Chicago would be worse. 2 hours for 5-7 miles? Let’s go
Great comparison between the two cities. It seems Toronto's equivalent to the 606 Trail is the West Toronto Railpath which is planned to be extended southeast to Abell Street and eventually connect to the Douro-Wellington bikeway. As for housing, Toronto has been making several bold moves including fourplexes citywide and allowing up to six storeys and 60-unit apartment buildings; the latter of which happened this past week.
I can't wait for the Rail Trail to extend south of Dundas!
Toronto is copying Montreal .
I think a better comparison would be the humber river trail if you wanna beat out chicago for the best multi use path. It runs nearly uninterrupted for 10km from the northwesternmost point of the city ALL the way south to the waterfront trail.
@@Aimaiai We also have the Don trail system and the Beltline. Scarborough has the meadow way
I really wish Toronto would find a way to open up its waterfront areas more, maybe even build outward to add more park space if possible. My favorite thing about Chicago is the waterfront and the skyscrapers that flow along the Chicago river.
The Toronto waterfront truly leaves a lot to be desired compared to the rest of the city. The majority of it functions purely as road connections, so the few attractions along the water feel isolated. I spoke to a New Yorker who said he visited the city several times for conferences before realizing that downtown is walking distance from the lake. I understand why, most of the interesting stuff in the city is concentrated out of sight of the water.
Agree with you 100%, Chicago has a far superior waterfront. Always thought they should shutdown the Toronto Islands Airport and convert to a park connected by walk/bike bridges to the city. It could be converted to a beautiful parkland with a state of the art open air entertainment center.
aren't they building a massive new neighborhood on the waterfront with a big new park?
@@jeffneptune2922 It's the 9th busiest airport in Canada, brings in a shit ton of money and employ quite a lot of people. Toronto has a ton of parkland, people just don't bother looking it up.
In re: wealth and segregation. A Vancouverite friend once said to me, "Canadians are generally poorer than Americans, but American poor people are much worse off than Canadian poor people," and I think that's borne out in these data.
As far as demand pressure goes: something it's hard to realize until you leave Chicago is how lucky we are for not missing the "missing middle". It remains easy to build mid-rise, mid-size apartment buildings in Chicago, from 2-4 unit "two-flats/three-flats" and 6-8 unit "six-flats" to 48-75 unit blocks, which generally aren't of the oversized, prefabricated variety one sees in Houston or Seattle. Developers in Toronto seem to go straight for building a 60-storey tower everywhere, and I do think a lot of neighbourhoods could benefit from small/medium blocks that aren't directly on Bloor or whatever; they can even have street-level retail of the convenience store, dry cleaner variety. Goes a long way toward making things walkable.
We're trying to get parking minimums reduced here in CHI to induce more transit demand, and that's proven tough. But I'm really enjoying the new bike infrastructure.
Chicago doesn’t really build new homes though. You occasionally see new five-over-ones in trendy neighborhoods but like what major city in America can’t say that about itself lol. It’s a city that was already built for being 2x the size that it currently is and remains affordable because of that mostly. Chicago YIMBYs like to act like it’s a well run city but it’s affordable precisely because it isn’t lol. Trust me, I worked for a Chicago real estate law firm assisting developers and the city government kept us busy lmao
One interesting thing with Toronto is a lot of those dense, detached homes somewhat close to downtown are converted into 2-3 unit walk-ups - each with their own separate kitchen and multiple rooms. I have a few friends that live in or have lived in them, and they can be pretty nice and quite spacious! Others are small businesses. Like my partner's therapist's office is on the first floor of what used to be a detached home, which is interesting.
It would be nice to have more mid-dense buildings though - the issue is once a developer gets their hands on a plot of land they want to build up on it as much as possible to maximize their return on investment. I'm starting to see at least some new builds be 8-12 stories and those tend to have plans for more spacious units. The issue is a lot of Toronto's new build, high-rise condos are small studios and 1-bedrooms, and we're seeing the market for those (that was once red hot) cool off lately. So hopefully that leads to more larger units being built in the new build condos, as those continue to be desirable.
That was the best video I've seen comparing these 2 cities. Keep up the good work!
Toronto does have a reclaimed railway beltway park and also reclaiming the lakefront for parks and boardwalks (sugar beach). And no mention of in-city airports (Billy Bishop and Midway). While subway in Toronto covers less distance, two new LRT routes are soon to open adding about 20 miles of “subway/el” transit.
Toronto even has normal beaches on the waterfront too, like Woodbine. It just has fewer things directly on the waterfront than Chicago. As for airports, there's a limit to how many things we want to mention in a video.
I really want to see the urbanity showdown between Seattle and Vancouver. There is a wacky confusion that makes people flustered: Washington state also has Vancouver city which is just across the river from Portland Oregon.
And there would be some similarities in comparing the two West Coast giants. Vancouver while "technically" smaller, feels bigger given its density. If Canada would do a US CSA style, Vancouver would be more than 3.5 million residents in a much smaller area than Seattle-Tacoma CSAs roughly 4 million. And while Seattle has taller buildings, Vancouver has much more filling a peninsula and more. Transit is the huge edge to Vancouver, with actual proper subways while Seattle has better Commuter Rail. Vancouver is more on the Pacific Ocean than Seattle. Vancovuer is much more ethnically diverse. Vancouver city area is half the area of Seattle yet just as populated. Anyway, would be a great comparison of two cities, largest in the Pac NW and very similar but different at the same time.
@@rchilde1 "Vancouver is much more ethnically diverse" not true at all. Seattle metro area is diverse asf nowadays. also I feel like I actually see more 'diverse' population more than Chinese or Indians in Seattle than lower mainland.
@@rchilde1this is generally correct - I’m surprised at the population drop off when taking a train or bus out of Vancouver. But it’s not like say Amsterdam where you go from farmland to their central rail station in 10 minutes.
Driving the nearest cornfield in from Chicago’s loop is much longer, Chicago land goes on forever
I'm glad you explained greater Toronto's population and how you added to that by adding cities. I tell people that both greater Toronto and greater Chicago are about the same in population, if you use the same land area for both.
They are similar at the moment but Toronto will have 40%-60% more people in the coming years.
Glad you enjoyed your time in Chicago! You got some footage 5 minutes from my building, wonder if we saw each other lol. Great video as always.
Best Chicago vs Toronto I’ve seen yet! Well done.
Excellent comparison of two of the biggest cities in the great lakes area! I like the way you detailed everything from urbanism, to road and transit infrastructure. Chicago looks super interesting and I hope to go soon!
Hopefully you'll manage to get around Chicago soon!
Living in Chicago for 8 years now, and just recently spent a week in Toronto. Chicago can be cool from the aerial shots but in Toronto, I used public transit without fearing for my life for a week. In Chicago that seems impossible to me
I had the opportunity to visit both. Toronto and Chicago are great cities there's a lot to do.
Toronto and every other Canadian city is truly underrated for transit among American urbanists!
Every other Canadian city? Such as? As a Canadian from Toronto I barely even bother to check out other Canadian cities. Seems boring to me.
@@daniellat5763 You sound stubborn & lacking in intellectual curiosity. Typical of Torontonians. For starters, Montreal is a much more interesting & older city than Toronto with a better & vastly more interesting transit system. You don't find anything "boring" about the sea of grey commie blocks & generic glass condos that make up 2/3's of Toronto?
There is no comparison in what a Chicago gets for transit from the US vs Toronto by Canadian feds. Chicago gets bits and pieces and was lucky to get matching funds for improvements along a line by a exiting Obama Admin. It was 1.1 Billion $$. Toronto already had 4 large transit projects going in 2021 when the Canadian Gov gave another massive 12-Billion $$$ for Toronto/Hamilton Transit for new lines and improvements. HUGE GAP.
Chicago has parts of its system back to the 1800s. Many still used from the early 20th century. Its subway portions in the core was early 1940s and that was fed money for WW2 project. All its previous ones were PRIVATE COMPANIES BUILDING MANY LINES OVER DECADES with their own divisions of getting along and ultimately becoming one line as the CTA that even closed some lines in the past. Its last big extension to O'Hare airport using the media of a expressway was in the very early 1980s.
The US has only basically LA getting a new or extended suburb currently and not much in federal funds to to so many of our larger cities to utilize vs a Toronto metro from just your Federal Gov.
Washington DC got its transit lines as a 1970s Fed project that gave Fed employees free transit vouchers they still get as nearly 20% of its ridership that also surpassed Chicago, yet it is subsidised vs Chicago's and federally build as a new system.
Chicago has full alleyways throughout the city lined with garages. That gives less incentive to us transit also to have more than street-parking and of course so many high-rises and skyscrapers are podium ones with parking lower levels that since the late 90s at least gets retail surrounding the base. Toronto requires parking underground if it is built into a building. Still it did not create a better streetscape look IMO. Chicago's mix of older buildings of every era give it just so much more diversity of styles.
@@davidw7 Small correction is a lot of Toronto transit projects are paid for by the provincial government, not federal for the most part. I think another part of the funding issue difference is just the use, more people use Toronto transit and pay the fares, which in turn gives it more funding.
Toronto's traffic can be so bad it forces people to use transit because it's just faster and less frustrating. Funnily enough some of the latest traffic bottlenecks and issues to come about is because of a lot of construction, including the construction of the new subway lines. The first one - that started construction in I think 2011-2012 - has been a bit of a shitshow. It was supposed to open in 2020 and still isn't open yet. There's so many rumours and theories about why this line is still not open. There is finally evidence that they have begun training operators though, so I'm hopeful we're under a year away for the new line.
@@Vanessa-vz5cw I believe my comment as a American and vs what US cities get is that Toronto and its region get many many billions $$$ from your feds OFFICIALLY. I went by a 2021 CBC link that said this (links usually get delete if pasted).
The federal government will spend more than $12 billion on transit projects in Toronto and Hamilton.
Title: Federal government to spend $12B on Toronto, Hamilton transit. 4 Toronto transit projects already underway will receive more funding.
Infrastructure Minister Catherine McKenna said Tuesday that $10.4 billion in funding will go toward four "shovel ready" transit projects in Toronto - the Ontario Line, the Scarborough Rapid Transit replacement, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT and the Yonge-North subway extension. This funding will cover about 40 per cent of each project.
However, none of these transit lines will be completed until at least 2029, said Ontario's Transportation Minister Caroline Mulrone.
My point was not negative... just Toronto in another nation is under totally different laws and funding policies and we need to realize it is not THE SAME PLAYING FIELD.
Can you imagine if Toronto was in the US Rustbelt/Midwest? It would be in the same boat, had the same dis-investment, same racial change/white-flight over the decades and lost so much to just suburbs, then Asia in so much lost jobs for the cheap and STILL NOW... a region that our Sunbelt cites can drain with their state incentives and claims of lower taxes.... that all was real. It restricts population growth going elsewhere.
Toronto was as having a not silver or gold but platinum spoon. A created large city by 2 amalgamations the second one totally FORCED and not wanted by those in other cities... and how the Quebec Separatist movement had TORONTO MADE THE MOVE TO FOR ALL OF Montreal's banks to national key powers.... ENDING MONTREAL's choice as Canada's Premiere city and Toronto conditioned fully to be the poster boy since....
Canada has not Sunbelt region to take from Toronto as it is immigrant central to the Queen city of Canada's main industries that others cannot steal or lure from in reality as how US northern cities have and been so damaged by it for decades.
This was really fun. As a Toronto resident, I definitely thought I envied Chicago’s CTA + METRA - until I saw their headways. While our subway is lacking in length, the GO system is being rapidly expanded with 15-30 min headways and new inner city shoulder stations being added along with electrification in the coming years.
now to be fair to metra, they are taking massive strides in improving themselves and have recently begun to improve frequencies on some of their lines, especially on weekends.
their goals now are to scrap their identity as a commuter rail system and to become a proper regional rail
Regional transit is definitely something where Toronto has improved in. And they needed to improve it, because the traffic you hit trying to get into downtown can be insane.
Your voice makes me feel happiness and keeps me focused, like on track! See what I did there. Oh shit. Laundry time! Happy Saturday y’all! Take trains and never buy a car ever!
This was a great watch! Would love more urbanism showdowns
I like these city comparison videos, interesting to see how similar they are despite being in 2 seperate countries.
Great video, great comparison!
I think Chicago parks along the Lake are much better then Toronto overall, and the Chicago downtown river walk is beautiful, Toronto has no street or waterfront as nice as that Chicago river walk.
Also I agree it felt strange to me that the Subway L in Chicago was coming every 10 mins when im use to it running every 2-4 mins...but Chicago L has some 24/7 train service, that is pretty awesome. Toronto does have 24/7 bus routes and Streetcar Routes...but the entire Subway ends around 1:30am everyday...a 24/7 subway route would be nice to have!!....but Toronto currently has a lot of public transportation under construction today....the Finch West LRT line...18-stops, 6.4 miles long. The Eglington LRT...32 stations, 17 miles long. The Hurontario LRT Line....18 stops, 11.1 km long. And lastly the Ontario Subway Line....15 stops, 9.7 miles long. Thats 4 different rail projects being built right now, and i believe 3 of them will be completed in the next few years. I dont think anywhere else in USA or Canada has this many transit projects in 1 city being currently built.
Really enjoyed this as someone who was born in Chicagoland and who now lives in downtown Toronto.
Great overview! The only thing that I would add is Toronto’s unusual above ground Streetcar network which carries a lot of people. There is also a ton of transit expansion underway in Toronto which isn’t mentioned. Not sure about Chicago in this regard.
Great point. Toronto's streetcars are unique, although I wish they only had dedicated lanes. Having drivers from out of town can be deadly when exiting a streetcar that is sharing the road with cars.
The town I live in outside of Toronto was a tiny hamlet 25 years ago when I was born. I think part of Canada's problem is we never planned for the massive amount of growth that has come in the last few decades, and the suddenness of it all is why so many older Canadians speak fondly about how nice Toronto was in the 80s. My father, a very blunt man and lifelong Torontonian, has always said just the opposite "Toronto was a dump before 2000." Our challenge now is figuring out how to combine transit, affordability, right-sized housing, in a way that doesn't require paving the Greenbelt, but also recognizes that change has to happen and that neighbourhoods aren't museums of childhood to be preserved forever the same way. And our politicians need to learn that if you save a nickel today but it costs you a dollar tomorrow, you're not doing anybody any favours but screwing the future.
Well said, Toronto just not planned to be this populous.
Chicago was planned to be a great metropolis but social economic issues are limiting it's growth
*My father, a very blunt man and lifelong Torontonian, has always said just the opposite "Toronto was a dump before 2000." *
I think a vast majority of people who lived in Toronto in the 80s and 90s would heartily disagree with your father. Sure it had its dingy parts, but Toronto back then had its own vibe and a soul. So many unique mom and pop stores and small businesses that made downtown Toronto so fun to visit and to spend time at are now mostly wiped out for a neverending line of glass condos and chain stores.
Also if 80s/90s Toronto was a 'dump' then what does it say for today's Toronto that averages a shooting/stabbing every single day? All the homeless, mentally ill, drug addicts hanging around in parks and on the streets being a threat to the general public. It wasn't nearly this bad 20-30 years ago that's for sure.
Your dad is spot on. I share his opinion mostly!
its just nostalgia, toronto is a much better city now, lower crimes better economy
@@TheEnderPearl
What are you smoking that you believe crime is actually lower now than 20-30 years ago? There's never been more shootings, stabbings, armed car jackings, car thefts, random assaults and other violent crimes as there has been now in Toronto and surrounding areas.
Nice video! We used to live in Chicago and think your thoughts and criticisms are accurate and fair. We love visiting Toronto too! :-)
I'm excited to see what will happen in Toronto in the coming decades. City council just approved zoning for a massive area for mid-density housing by-right along major streets all over the city, as well as allowing quad-plexes in nearly all residential zoning areas. Once the current batch of condo projects wraps up I hope to see more developers tackling infill development. I expect it to be the smarter investment option in an era of higher interest rates. Only time will tell.
It will look like New Delhi.
Im excited too! You should check out the downsview airport redevelopment project in Toronto too
@@goldenretriever6261New Delhi isn’t the insult you think it is.
They need to stop building endless condos in downtown, especially along the lakeshore, then letting foreign investors buy up all the units to price out the local Torontonians who end up renting them for much higher prices.
The endless land development is also pushing out traditional and cultural pockets of the city like the Kensington Market area.
@@_Just_Another_GuyThe large Condos being built are a symptom of horrible zoning in Ontario.
Both are great North American cities with amazing skylines on the Great Lakes.
Chicago Mentioned! Woo!
🤬🤬🤬🤬
"Ghost trains" are part of the reason I stopped using the L, sadly.
Contact your alder and get them to sign the resolution calling for CTA President Dorval Carter's dismissal!
Need more workers
Divvy was cheaper and faster than the L for literally everything when I was there. In Toronto the TTC beats bikeshare pretty handily past St. Clair
A few others. Until 20 years ago, Chicago also had a small dt island airport until the mayor overnight destroyed it while Toronto's developed into a real city-centre airport. Also, some bank towers of Toronto to save costs of new designs are copies of or inspired by Chicago buildings from famous architects. BMO First Canadian Place is an actual copy of Aon Center, Chicago with the stripes running horizontally instead of vertically. TD Centre is by the famous architect of Chicago, Mies Van Der Rohe. With TD Centre, he took his style from his own Chicago projects and turned it into a tower complex. Commerce Court integrating 1930s CIBC tower with 1970s CIBC Tower was done by IM Pei who has several Chicago projects.
If you had to live somewhere in the states, where would it be? I actually think Chicago might be the best option. Of course there's New York but it also seems a bit overwhelming, and is much more expensive. Washington DC might be the most pleasant, but it's also extremely expensive. The other East Coast cities - Philly, Baltimore - seem less green and more depressing on street view. Chicago seems to have a good balance of size, cost of living, beauty, urbanism, diversified economy, kind of something for everyone. Maybe Boston...
On the less expensive side, Pittsburgh offers a lot of bang for the buck when it comes to urbanism.
3:07 That is a really nice looking building. I love how those balconies are more like porches, with those intermittent brick walls.
Back in the 60s in engineering class we were told at the time Chicago was developing its major road system, there was a question about cost and safety. It was decided to go by the cost of life insurance which is reletively low so the system saved cost by having low safety.
What a great video! You captured Chicago perfectly!
Toronto does have several light rapid transit projects under construction and there are dozens of new skyscrapers (including supertalls of over 300 metres) either planned or under construction. This goes as well for several suburbs, such as Mississauga and Vaughan. In addition, rezoning to allow for greater density in the more suburban parts of Toronto and some of the suburbs have also been passed. I think these current develops should also be mentioned because they would certainly change the resume of this video.
An interesting video~Comparatively. Chicago for me stands out because of its architecture & public spaces downtown. The aesthetics of the city are top notch. Freshly scrubbed & prettier. But Toronto, a wealthy city too, a safer city, has some very attractive areas also, many affluent residential areas near downtown & good looking streets in the core that the video didn’t quite capture. But so much less dense than Chi-outside of the core. Chicago def scores higher points in more impressive city category right now, but Toronto is no slouch either, it’s got a cool aesthetic vibe in some of its neighbourhoods & downtown areas. Like Yorkville ~Chill & relaxed. Also, Massive New Waterfront revitalization & Portlands project are happening now.. Toronto is a chaotic construction mess as I post this. A lot of new building of housing & transit is happening now. City will look a lot different in 5-10 yrs. Should re-visit the 2 towns then.
This was great! I was pleasantly surprised to be reminded of all the three story walkups of Chicago and the density they provide. In that sense the city is more comparable to Montreal. If I could quibble, it would have been helpful to discuss the place of the new LRTs in Toronto and how they will contribute to the discussion of which city has more mass transit, to say nothing about the street car system in Toronto that has no real comparison in Chicago that I know of.
ya very surprised there was no mention of streetcars. those are as iconic to Toronto as the L is to Chicago imo
I view Montréal as a mix of Chicago, Boston, & New Orleans
I'm glad there are no streetcars in Chicago... having parking & bike lanes on main streets contributed enough to traffic congestion
@@Heyu7her3 I'm glad too. It's good to have a cool urban feature that you have to go to Toronto to experience.
Great video! I have always felt that Toronto would kill to have Chicago's infrastructure, Chicago would kill to have Toronto's population growth.
When I first visited Chicago from Toronto I was struck by how great and extensive their Transit and general infratstrture systems were, but also by how few people were downtown as compared to Toronto.
While both are great Cities, as demographics is destiny, I think the future belongs to Toronto.
That’s quite interesting, having lived in both, I’ve always thought that downtown Toronto had noticeably less foot traffic than Chicago.
Both have huge numbers of office workers, but downtown Chicago seems like of a destination to eat and drink, whereas in Toronto the most popular places from my experience are a bit outside the core, e.g. King West, Queen West, and Ossington.
Also, Chicago gets absurd numbers of tourists anywhere near the Mag Mile.
@@Lukasz-nw2pb I lived in Chicago for many years and I’ve never heard anyone describe the Loop as a destination for eating and drinking lmao. Mag Mile and State Street are tourists traps that are almost never visited by locals.
What always surprised me was just how few people took transit in Chicago but tbh it’s not surprising when you actually talk to Chicagoans.
Living there for so long I have discovered that it’s not a city. It looks like a city. It has a city layout. But Chicago isn’t a city anymore. It’s an incubator for future suburbanites and the culture and identity of its people reflect that. People on the Northside will openly brag to you about never going south of Roosevelt like it makes them better people. I’ve had a dozen people tell me they do not take the Red Line because “it goes through the Southside and so those people tend to stay on the train.” In the same conversation I’ve dozens of times heard Chicagoans mock outsiders who think the city is dangerous but then say the Southside is a hellhole. They would tell you this even if you’re from the Southside (which i am).
Most of the permanent residents who are not black Southsiders or Mexicans in the West side, are just suburban born Illinoisans or Kansas farm girls who come here post grad to post cute brunch photos before shacking up with some other suburban born Greek life graduate. They’ll maybe try to be cool and hip and not move to the suburbs before their first kid is born, but as soon as that baby can read he’s being shipped off to some town ending in Park, Grove, or Heights to be in “a good school district.”
@@Lukasz-nw2pb That’s an interesting point. I think this gets a little bit into the semantics of what “downtown” is. It’s true, while pre pandemic Toronto’s downtown core was a little busier, our downtown core (where the tall office towers are) is relatively small compared to the entirety of downtown (depending on definition). The downtown core tends to be very busy during the day but a little dead after working hours. The areas that flank the Downtown core in Toronto you mentioned are very busy. So are a number of other areas which flank the downtown core that are still technically downtown: the Waterfront, Yonge Street, Yorkville (Bloor-Yonge), the Annex, King Street, Queen Street, College Street.
I could be wrong about Chicago, it was my observation when I visited. I was surprised to see so few people throughout many parts of Downtown.
@@patrickboldea599 Maybe I’m wrong but I feel like many US cities seem to follow this trend.
Downtown is a place to come into, see a sporting event or a show and then drive back to your large suburban home where it’s “safe.”
I guess Chicago used to be different?
So nice to see a video that gets it right about Toronto. I've lived here a long time as a transplanted American...it's not perfect and has some huge problems, but the comparison with Chicago is apt. When I'm in Chicago, I like it much more than Toronto, but that's more about new, different and older. On balance I think that Toronto is an easier place to live, especially downtown and if you aren't car-reliant for a commute or lifestyle.
If you are an "urbanist", you may see more hope for a car-free central district in Toronto, but it will involve a more progressive provincial politician, and, frankly, greater WFH. You're right to quote Reece Martin's videos to help understand the complexity of the problem, but I'd also suggest City Nerd and Not Just Bikes for additional takes, particularly that having successful regional rail that largely drives to the train station is not necessarily a "win" in that it just makes the suburbs and ex-burbs more car-reliant and "stroad" filled, kinds of places that totally miss the point of improved lives and not enslavement to 4 hr round trip commutes daily.
Toronto's reputation as having the worst traffic in North America is well earned (though Chicago can't be far behind), but it may accidentally be an indication of getting some things right in terms of less highway access to downtown. The traffic is partially due to an underbuilt transit system for city size -- Toronto has grown like no other city in North America in the last 20 years, and a population that is very car = freedom-oriented. It's a state of mind thing that is slowly changing, but after embarking on a decades-long infrastructure improvement needed to deal with a city this size.
Not just transit, but all infrastructure. It is going to be worse for so long before it gets better, and sadly much will not be improved in my lifetime. I'm of the generation that cries the most about this, but I understand that we must accept all inconveniences to create a great city for generations to come.
It's no accident that some of the most popular urbanists call or called Toronto home. We see what unanticipated population explosion does when it's not a part of a cities planning. Toronto is Jane Jacob's home of choice, though I wonder what she'd think if she was around now. Much of what she loved about the city is still here, but also much of what she hated about other cities is also here too.
The province and the city dropped the ball after they cancelled the Spadina Expressway. We got the promise of "transit, transit, transit" as the consolation prize, but after 1974, that practically ended. New subway stations? Oh, maybe after the next elections. New subway _lines?_ Maybe next century. Literally! The Sheppard Line didn't open until 2002, and it's a stub that does little but get people out of their cars at Fairview Mall before they have to cross the 401 and head downtown. At least there's _that._ It's only been in the last ten years that Toronto's actually started really building new transit that doesn't look and smell like yet another bus route, and even then, it's ridiculous. NASA _literally_ took less time from JFK's promise to actually putting Apollo 11 on the moon than Metrolinx has taken to build and open the Eglinton LRT! 1961-1969 vs. 2010-...whenever!
Chicago is thegreenst and most sustainable with a better architecture . Toronto has no soul, no identity .
@AChapstickOrange
Very true the Eglinton LRT still has no firm opening date after 14 years of construction! What a farce!
Thanks for the video. Love both these cities. Big shout out to the ravines and beltline trail in To! You mentioned the ravines, but they probably deserve an entire video just for them. I get the feeling that people who don’t live in Toronto have no idea that there is this incredible network of what is essentially wilderness trails through various parts of the city, and they also connect to the beltline trail which is similar to Chicago’s Bloomingdale Trail in that it is an old railway converted to a linear park. having lived in Toronto, I feel like any residential location close to the ravines or beltline is a solid 15% more desirable, and that’s a lot of the city. In what other city can you go on a legitimate wilderness hike from one neighbourhood to another?
Each respective city is also relatively close to Ottawa, Ontario and Ottawa, Illinois.
The Chicago area does have a bus system for the suburbs called Pace that connects to the CTA
See Reece’s article for how it compares to Toronto
I've ridden it. Lol back in the day when they still used tokens. It worked well for me.
I'm a Hawks fan who would love to go to Chicago and my mother is a Leafs fan who would love to go to Toronto. Maybe some day we'll get to visit them both!? Who knows...
I lived in Toronto for 35 years (and I don't live that far from it now). You captured the texture of the city very well. I've always been curious how it compares to Chicago.
All I can tell from this video is that Chicagos architecture is way more interesting and more beautiful compared to Torontos.
This is one of the biggest cultural differences between Canadians and Americans: the size of suburban lots. American like huge expanses of grass, and spend a lot of time mowing it, but seem to do very little with their land other than grow grass. Canadians seems to prefer smaller lots, but seem to do much more with it, and hate mowing lawns.
one thing for Toronto transit is the extensive streetcar system! I don’t know about Chicago, but in Toronto a lot of people only need to take streetcars to get around
This is the perfect type of video for me. Love this comparison. Really interesting perspective and comparison
The difference is because a lot of Chicago was developing more quickly pre- and beginning of car, whereas Toronto has really expanded post-car .Toronto also had a massive fire that burned down a large amount of the older city. Montreal was the largest city until the 70s.
Chicago native here, my father was Canadian. My father grew up out in Chatham, but my cousins all live in or around Toronto. I always loved visiting Toronto, I just felt very "at home" there because of the similarities. The neighborhoods, shopping, transit, all felt very familiar. The other thing that I loved about Toronto was that when speaking to local area folks, they noticed that I would pronounce the name of the city more like a native: "Turano" (leaving the second "T" out and pretty much pronouncing the first "o" more like a soft "u").
I always found that charming and ironic. In Chicago, we have an Italian bread company named "Turano Bread" which sounds like how Toronto residents say the name of their city.
Ahhh...Midwestern accents are awesome!
"Semi-Rural" suburbs are technically called "Ex-Urbs." I actually grew up out in one of the Chicago Ex-urbs: St. Charles, IL. Granted, now with so much urban sprawl my hometown is technically now an official "Suburb" and also a small City on it's own.
As far as Transit, Toronto beats Chicago because it was better planned out because public transportation was built into the city planning. While with Chicago, public transit came much later as most traffic into the city initially was by wagons and interstate train cars bringing in livestock. Chicago's public transit has to compete with it's extensive surface roads and highways.
I live in Mississauga, there is a mayoral election coming in up and it kinda seems like a lot of people here seem to think that this is just farmland outside of Toronto and not an actual city of more than 700 thousand people.
I have varied interests and follow a lot of RUclips channels. I have to say, the comments here are some of the most intelligent takes I have seen on YT. I’m from Toronto and go to Chicago about once a year, and agree with so many of the insights here.
I'm originally from Toronto but have lived for several years in Los Angeles. IMO Chicago is a far more beautiful and grandeur city than Toronto. The architecture in Chicago is stunning, where in Toronto it is bland, and cheap looking. The main street in Chicago is the very grand Michigan Avenue (The Magnificent Mile) where in Toronto it is the shabby looking Yonge Street. The lakefront in Chicago blows the lakefront in Toronto away. I always found the lakefront in Toronto depressing, where in Chicago it is beautiful. As a visitor Chicago has much more interesting things to do. Also, Chicago has 2 world class universities, The University of Chicago and Northwestern University. Where Toronto has just one, The University of Toronto, where my father graduated in 1956.
Toronto has 3 universities: U of T, Toronto Metropolitan (formerly Ryerson) and York. They are all excellent universities. Metro focuses on practical, applied and polytechnic type stuff that will definitely get you a job while York concentrates on Fine Arts, philosophy and the things that are the spice of life.
@@sorrywrongplanet8873I only listed Universities that were world ranked in the top 100, which Chicago has 2 and Toronto 1. Now according to Wikipedia Chicago has a total of 28 Universities to Toronto 3.
Yonge street's seediness is a large part of its appeal. If you want something grand go to University.
@@adorabell4253 The main shopping street of a city should be more like New York City’s 5th Avenue or Madison Avenue not Yonge Street. I also don’t find University that grand, certainly no comparison to Chicago’s Michigan Avenue.
@@gracedagostino5231 the main shopping street isn’t Yonge, it’s Bloor. And I agree,University isn’t very grand but we have other interesting streets.
6:31 I would say the anti-social behaviour of playing music out loud and even smoking (or at least vaping) is increasingly common on the Montreal Metro too, it's not just a Chicago thing
The refusal to accept "big city" status seems like a pretty broad North American issue. Lots of places would be more thriving if they'd accepted that lots of people want to live and work there, earlier in their histories. I don't know if it's a relic of historical racism--and racial segregation of white suburbs, black downtowns--but anti-urbanism in North America is well past its sell-by date.
Toronto does not even remotely follow the "white suburbs and black downtown" layout of Midwest cities like Chicago. If anything it's the opposite with the suburbs having a lower percentage of white people
Can’t compare Canada and the United States in terms of race relations in cities tbh. In the U.S. white flight led to white wealthy suburbs and poor minority cities while Canada’s population and its immigrants have all been moving into cities for the past 50 years (the same timespan that Americans have been leaving cities). Canada’s mix of demographics and urbanity are far more comparable to Australia and New Zealand while I think the U.S. is most similar to Brazil in this aspect
@@Entername-md1ev Toronto is the reverse. White inner city and racial minorities in the suburbs, especially newer suburbs.
It's not only a component of racism, but coldwar thinking In prioritizing single family homes over apartment blocs.
So it's basically not only racism, but anti-socialism as well.
A very well done comparison!
Seattle vs Vancouver?
Vancouver is the nicer city but Seattle is the much wealthier city in my opinion
Chicago looks iconic.. what a breath taking architecture mann!!
And then there are people who say the two cities look alike
I have trust issues now lol
As stated, Chicago’s growth is much older, but the fact it has more of a gradual density drop off is not a positive. Toronto’s density up the Yonge Street corridor and dropping off quickly on both sides was by design and planning that was done by examining world class cities including Chicago and understanding that they were shortsighted in that regard. A dense corridor vs growth in all directions gives more people over a longer distance access to urban amenities while preserving more green space and reducing commute times.
While I'm not a professional planner, I know that maintenance concerns usually get underestimated. Any Data on the costs of such big and heavy buildings right next to such a humid environment? I know the Champlain towers was because of Florida floriding, but all projects cut corners in some fashion, And that's a lot of people in a small area.
You don't just have analyze by what you have to gain, but also what you have to lose.
I like that you showed the metro areas & how they can vary depending on how you measure it. So often I see people say Chicago is way bigger with 9.5 million in its Metro population vs Toronto as 6 million without realizing the Toronto metro population is far greater if you account further distanced towns & cities as well like Chicago does, then you see a closer comparison.
I live in Toronto and I've been to Chicago a few times. Aesthetically speaking I prefer Chicago especially the downtown area. Toronto can't compete here. Downtown Toronto is chaotic with boring architecture. Chicago has that WOW factor.
Agreed I think downtown Chicago is way more impressive than downtown Toronto but on the flip side, the non-downtown parts of Toronto are much nicer and safer than the non-downtown parts of Chicago proper
@@Entername-md1ev
Agree and disagree. Chicago has some very nice non downtown parts like Logan Square, Wrigleyville and Lincoln Park etc.....but i know what you're getting at.
I'm excited to see Chicago this year. I've lived in most of Canada's big cities: Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton, but now live in Northern BC, in the Rockies.
I rarely get to a city much larger than Prince George, BC (80,000 people) so Chicago will be an interesting adventure.
@@jumbothompson Chicago is dangerous everywhere, crime is even in the suburbs. In Toronto, you are pretty much safe everywhere.
@@HeatherLewis213😂 cars are getting stolen from the richest parts of Toronto; don't know how you call Toronto safe for living.
Live in Chicago, love Toronto. They really are so similar. Tip for Chicago though is for crosswalks without lights or stop signs, you have to just start walking into the street. The cars will stop for you
you didn't mention Toronto's streetcar system which has almost 250k passengers per day on weekdays. They operate 5 car long trains which makes them function almost as a street-level subway system. The TTC also offers a 2-h free transfer window, someone who hops on a bus could get off and get on a streetcar or subway without having to pay again.
I don't think the comparison to subways is accurate. The streetcars are much slower.
@@OhTheUrbanity they're closer to busses in real function but they feel like a subway or train when you ride them. There is no bus engine noise or bounce in the ride
I'm from Chicago, and when I visited Toronto, I was shocked at how similar it is. It's basically Chicago drawn from memory. What we do have is an accessible lakefront full of trails, parks, and beaches for recreation that Toronto lacks.
I dunno, I tend to disagree. While you do have the lakefront, I find that Toronto dwarfs Chicago when it comes to parks & trails.
Never saw that much greenery in the inner city that equates to Toronto's ravine system.
@moho472 I prefer our 15 miles of natural lakefront parks. If you want nature, the suburbs have forest preserves. Having forests breaking up a city creates dead zones
@@berrylarry20 To each their own. Personally, it's nice to have the ravines integrated with the city. It allows people to have long hikes and see much of the untouched system connect with the lake front and other parts without having to rely on commuting in a car.
Thank you so much for making this video. Your avant guard sensibility on cities and urbanism as a whole seems unmatched, IMHO. I'm a San Franciscan who counts myself a Chicagophile through and through, but Toronto has been on top of my travel list and I agree that Chicago could learn a lot from the newer shinier "upstart" on its fellow Great Lakes.
Chicago’s downtown is much larger, more beautiful and exciting. It’s a world class city. Toronto belongs to a lower tier honestly.
Fantastic video! I always thought about this stuff when I lived in Toronto. Now I live in Vancouver and I do the same with Seattle lol
I’ve never felt comfortable in Chicago, due to the vibe it has with overhead train tracks
However the suburbs of Chicago are so beautiful
I was in Chicago last week. Great town
the note on limited density reminds me a lot of Milwaukee as well. Lots of neighborhoods pretty close to downtown that feel like nice transit-accessible 'burbs instead of being more walk-up like, despite having decent density because the houses are close together and 90% duplexes.
I love these city comparisons, & of course your channel, but I feel that a few wins for Toronto were overlooked. Statcan's new population estimates have the city of Toronto at over 3.1 million as of July 2023, which given their similar area, makes it denser overall than the city of Chicago. Far more people in Toronto live in hi-rise buildings throughout the entire city than in Chicago (Toronto has twice as many hi-rises as Chicago), and even the old victorian rowhouse & semi-detached neighbourhoods in Toronto have higher densities than Chicago's old walk-up areas. There are also 3 new supertall skyscrapers under construction in downtown Toronto now, with several more approved or proposed. Unlike Chicago, Toronto is currently building several new rapid transit lines, & the commuter rail system will be on another level with GO RER in development. The Greater Toronto-Hamilton area grew by about 250,000 people since last year (more than any other North American metro area), Chicago's metro area can only dream of that kind of growth.
1. I used 2021 data from Canada to more closely match the 2020 US census. I didn't want to use more recent US population data because that means relying on the ACS which, from what I understand, can be a little wonky with population estimates.
2. Toronto's older semi-detached neighbourhoods are decently dense but, from my analyses, not as dense as Chicago's neighbourhoods (unless maybe we're counting the areas that have problems with vacant lots).
3. The points about future improvements are all true (although I think GO RER is a lot more exciting than the LRTs) but we intentionally avoided spending too much time talking about future trajectories due to time constraints. This video was already longer than normal for us.
Ken, fancy seeing you here! Well spoken!
Very nice video, thanks for the insights! I've visited both cities and found a lot to like. Some of my close friends have lived in Chicago in really nice older midrise apts, so the observation about housing diversity is definitely borne out in my experience!
chicago has so much transit potential. i can only imagine what the city could become if the L and regional network were modernized, expanded, and improved with better service and infrastructure.
Good to see you guys posting again! Love your videos, and style. Once again, thank you for the great content! I would be interested to see if you guys have a video in the works about how the midwest might experience huge urban improvement over the next 25-40 years due to climate change and those models.
I always thought Toronto and Chicago had a similar feel, but Chicago has way, way better architecture and access to the lake and river.
Very informative and fun video. I agree, I’ve always seen Toronto and Chicago as Very similar cities in almost every thing. Keep up the good work 🔥
Ravines are awesome! I guess if you like nature, and you're an urbanist channel, ok I got it now. I used to live very close to the Humber River ravine and loved biking there recreationally. Funny, never occurred to me to bike to work, I did walk tho, 30 minutes each way, but I am from Etobicoke, so...
It's rare I get through videos like these without 1 or many points I take issue with but everything said was accurate, fair, and considered.
Obviously, a lot of the differences between Toronto and Chicago are due to the eras of their main developments - Chicago growing very big earlier than Toronto. The differences shoe what was considered ideal at the times. I am sure that will continue as long as both cities grow in the future.
Hamilton beats Gary, I know that much.
I saw my apartment in Chicago in this video haha :) so cool
As an American who watches a lot of urbanism related videos on youtube, I've been learning a lot more about the built environment in Canada, but I must say that this is the first video that really highlighted the history of those places. I honestly am shocked to hear that Toronto was historically a much smaller city than Chicago and they only recently find themselves as peers. I would have previously assumed that urban trends that affected cities in the United States would have similar affects on cities in Canada, yet I now understand how incorrect that was. I'm now much more curious about how Canada's historical differences from the United States might have manifested in different growth patterns. Did the waves of immigration that had such an impact on American cities bypass Canada due to different immigration policies? Did Canada's place in the British commonwealth bring European style architecture and planning techniques that it's southern neighbors rejected? I'd love to see more video essays on how history has impacted urban development outside of the United States, and would also welcome any other online resources people might suggest on the subject.
ruclips.net/video/G3lRp-67z5U/видео.htmlsi=G8l0SqD2GkpOem3_
ruclips.net/video/bLs4hLIuHVY/видео.htmlsi=hbUCbx5YVpTdlZnV
ruclips.net/video/48sQedAp0ME/видео.htmlsi=Oru2f5J1TWV4pxNk
The channel "Geography by Geoff" has some videos that address the subject of that history. One in particular discusses why eastern Canada is relatively unpopulated compared to the eastern US, and the historical reasons for that.
@@mushroomsteve That sounds like a perfect resource to answer my questions! I appreciate you taking the time to recommend such a relevant channel.
Something else that is interesting is that the suburbs of Chicago typically have a historic denser core that you can clearly see got just sprawled out, most commonly around Metra stops.Toronto's suburbs are interesting in the sense where that sort of historical core does not exist. Also a lot of what's considered to be a suburb of Chicago are also clearly some small towns that just got roped into the sprawl of Chicago's suburbs like Joliet, Elgin, and Aurora. That isn't really the case in Toronto due to the fact that its a newer city.
The four most densely populated municipalities in Illinois are all western suburbs (Chicago is #5).
Toronto's suburbs have historic core areas to but most are parts of amalgamated cities.
I live on the outskirts of Chicagoland, and I'm planning my move to Chicago. We have a Metra train that goes directly to Downtown , and I love taking it anytime I go to the city. Driving on the Kennedy tollway makes me so nervous, so being able to ride the train is nice. The only problem I have with it is frequency, especially on weekends. Metra needs to increase frequency and stop catering to the old 9-5 commuter crowd.
It's this hostile behavior, more than anything, that has stunted the low post-pandemic ridership on the Chicago Transit Authority. This is why I've started biking to work instead of riding the 'L'. It's why a few of my female coworkers have started car-pooling. Some might attribute it to the homeless people on the ''L". I attribute it to self indulgent pinheads who don't believe that the rules apply to them and they know they won't get caught.
great video. I love living in Toronto but you let us off easy on traffic and the waterfront. We (Toronto) completely f'd up the waterfront when we allowed private developers to build condos instead of making it the public space it should have (like Chicago).
I'm Japanese
I waaaaay prefer Chicago to Toronto.
Well researched video, the density in Toronto might be one of the reasons we have an extreme housing crisis at the moment, while afaik chicago prices are still fairly affordable.
Chicago has been losing population for several years, which is why prices have more or less plateaued as compared to Toronto. The inflows of population into Toronto is the cause of the stratospheric prices, and housing starts can’t keep up with population growth.
@@oldschoolben438 exactly you can’t compare these two cities without mentioning how their population growth is going in opposite directions. Chicago city proper’s population peaked in the 1950s during a time when Toronto still had less than 1 million people. Chicago has had a declining population for nearly 7 decades now while Toronto’s population has grown almost too fast in the past 20-30 years
Chicago is also extremely sprawling while the GTA ecosystem is protected by the greenbelt. It's easy to be "affordable" when you can build out endlessly
NIMBY's are killing Toronto. Those ppl still think it's about them and they still think they live in a small town. It's honestly annoying that they're the reason for not making Toronto have more mid rises in where there's single family homes. It's ridiculous.
I am always amazed at how similar both cities are. I could easily be happy to work and live in Chicago just as the same with Toronto.
Suburbs in the GTA are much denser than your average US suburb. There tends be a lot more mixed home types as well with single homes, duplexes and townhomes all the in same subdivision. The lot sizes are significantly smaller too with many newer builds barely having a backyard and the front yards adhering to minimums.