Just a reminder: 1. Illegal things like assault, indecent exposure etc., are already illegal 2. Biological and masculine presenting men can be victims too 3. Biological and feminine presenting women can be perpetrators too 4. If the manliest man is intent on doing something illegal, a "biological women in skirts only" sign will not stop him from entering a room where he intends to do that.
Really glad you made this point, because I was on the other side of the arguement before. I wanted trans-people to have a seperate space for them in places like changing rooms, bathrooms, and prisons. But, we already have laws about assult and indecent exposure and should just apply them appropriately and that would solve these issues. My only remaining reservation is sport, but that isn't a legal matter it's a matter of fairness in competition
@@ight001 yeah sport (or competitions like best actress or business women awards) are the only area I think are up for depate. On balance I'm in favour of every discipline's governing body deciding on their own criteria based on some empirical evidence of what gives people an advantage and what doesn't.
My friend is a F to M trans. He has a low masculine voice a beard and is impossible to mistake. Is he going to be banned from the male bathroom? And if so will his presence in the female bathroom cause security to rush in and arrest him and will be then be taken to a police station and have to be biologically verified both documented and physically and then released. Until he wishes to go to the toilet again? It's a vacuous issue that has been manufactured by the Tory right of the right wing to be a shiny object to distract for their own misdeeds. And sorry James you dropped down one number on my speed dial.
I'd be surprised if any males using the changing room would be bothered or threatened, unless they we're the brainwashed religious type. Women on the other hand, Not sure - I mean they may feel threatened but technically there wouldn't be any grounds for their complaints, You can't ban people for how they look.
I looked after a trans woman on a hospital ward designated for female patients 20 years ago. This was not an individual that 'passed', particularly once they were in their hospital gown, but nevertheless their identity was respected and not one person complained. Everyone's dignity and privacy was respected, as should be the case with everyone in a hospital regardless of gender or location. The other ladies in the room did not express feeling frightened or threatened in any way. It seems odd that a couple of decades ago seems like a more enlightened time! Nowadays this craven and disgusting moral panic would lead to that blameless individual being treated with fear and suspicion simply for existing and being in need of medical care.
From experience fear comes from being the minority in a greater population for it to stand if any fear was experienced, it was quite likely your transgender patient was more frightened of the majority than the majority was of the minority. Not all males in fact I would suggest the majority are not a threat to women regardless as to whether they transition or not.
@@Coelacanth1 I think it’s a safe bet that any trans woman in this position these days would be considerably more scared than the cis women around them!
And women in the same situation have been graped on wards by the delusional man in a dress. More important to make sure that doesn’t happen than hurting someones precious fee fees.
I’ve lived and worked in SE Asia for many years. Attitudes to trans people are very different there. You soon learn not to care if the person serving you in Boots is trans. Regardless, the percentage of people with actual gender dysphoria is tiny. And the percentage of those who somehow exploit this situation is again tiny. A tiny percentage of a tiny percentage. Yet, somehow this has been made a burning issue. Methinks this is political misdirection - oh look! A squirrel!
O this chimes - I was born and raised in SE Asia, thankfully. When my (adult) child transitioned, people kept assuming it must have been difficult for me. It really wasn't, aside the raging prurience and ignorance of supposedly nice-normal people. It was a massive relief to see my lovely kid grow into themself.
I understand the trans woman population in the UK amounts to 0.1% to in effect describe a few thousand being perceived as a threat to 34 million natal females.
I found this segment very thought provoking. I'm a transwoman and it's actually quite frightening to think that at the start of the year, the main news coverage was just about scotlands push to make it easier to change your birth certificates gender marker. Now I'm in danger of having human rights removed from me because of the tory parties draconian ideas about gender. What I do find truly ironic is kemi badenoch. A black woman of African descent who 100 years ago wouldn't have held rights due to her race and gender and would have been segregated; is now trying to push a different kind of segregation on a different minority. It's Conservative irony at its worst.
It is a truly frightening world with far right voices such as Ms Rowling wading in and shaping political debates and even government policy ideas. She claims to be left leaning though, maybe so ultra left he is far right- George Galloway’s Respect is her party of calling then 🤔 Oh, the Respect and Reform manifestos have many similarities. Sorry for the Freudian slip of misgendering Ms Rowling, like she does to publicly known trans women.
I always say, how would those women who are complaining feel if a trans man with a beard walked into the ladies toilets wearing jeans, a tee shirt? Or if a trans man with a beard demanded a place in a women’s refuge because they’ve been attacked? In their definition they would be entitled to both, and James is right, who will check
@@LG-cz6lsyou're welcome to join us here. Trans men exist, you're lack of knowing this speaks bounds about your lived experiences. Which is to say, sheltered.
@@flandersnatch2285 What are you on about? Most of the trans folk I know are men. Just because they needed medical assistance to _be_ at peace with their bodies, doesn't make them any less so.
as a trans woman if i was to be forced to be in a male ward in hospital then i wouldnt go in to hospital and many other trans women would probably feel the same we have used female facillities for decades already and all the fearmongering hasnt happened despite it being LEGAL for trans women to use female facilities.
@@casperwallace9685 Many of us have been sharing space with trans women for years (often unknowingly) and it wasn't an issue. Same applies to some of the most vocal anti-trans ppl online. Culture wars are there to distract you from the shitshow that is bad governance, as a belter of a Tory admitted openly a few weeks ago.
@Casper Wallace OK, so where would a woman who had transitioned into a man, has muscles, has a beard, has had bottom surgery, going to go in this hypothetical? Surely not on the same ward with all these hypothetical women who don't want to be in a room with a man? Or do transmen not exist in your universe?
I have just been reading your explanation of this issue in your book on how not to be wrong. I find it difficult as a cis male to have any internal guidance as to what it means to be trans. Even as an elderly person I rejoice in learning knowing that my ignorance is infinite, and I will never have to stop. Without any internal grounding for this issue, I am forced to rely on outside information. It is a bit helpful that the anti-trans faction has consistently shown themselves to be wrong about mostly everything. As I continue with life's journey, I need to remember that others are not here to please me but to be themselves and should always be treated fairly. Easier said than done sometimes.
@@alanhat5252 I fully agree that this issue is being used to justify bigotry. My point is that it is difficult for a cis person to understand what it is to be trans and to decide what is right and wrong with positions on versions issues.
Men should not be in women's spaces and transgender women should seek to have their own category of facilities. I am not happy to see young 13 year old girls, or myself, having to dress in changing rooms or use public toilets with men as it is upsetting and indecent.
Just for clarity. A non transgender woman can be born with a pp this is known as intersex when someone is born with characteristics within both genders. Intersex people are not (necessarily but can be) transgender. another issue with this new law would mean that transgender men will be forced to use the ladies bathroom and transmen can be extremely masculine and will always present masculine, this has the unintended effect that all the transwoman you just banned will be replaced with transmen who are actually men and will present male only now the transwoman forced to share spaces with men will be at risk of SH or SA or just regular old harassment or assault from cis men. Pointless policy designed to make Transpeople's lives more difficult.
There are also more intersex people in the world than Gingers. Also the reason they *stopped* doing chromosomal in sports is because they kept finding people who thought they were biological women were actually intersex.
For some people, it all comes down to there are only two sexes. Therefore, when it comes to laws, "there are two boxes on the form: man, woman. that's it." But to me, that leaves intersex people, who are actual living citizens, having to decide which box to mis-describe themselves. The whole point of claiming there are only two boxes is because the boxes are supposed to describe *everyone*. "so now there are three boxes" yes - so the whole facade of "there are only two sexes" breaks down in the face of reality and we need to examine why it is sooooo important to certain people that we ignore reality. I never really liked being in the bathroom with other people :). Doesn't matter what they identify as or how they were born or anything. I just prefer to be alone. I honestly don't care about what is in so many other peoples' pants because it has absolutely no bearing on my life.
Have to say that I think this has been a most thoughtful segment. Thoroughly agree with everything you said. It's straight out of the Conservative playbook these days. Deflect attention away from the mess we've made of the country by starting culture wars that anger the public. Well done once again on pointing out this craziness James. 👏
@@yt.personal.identification Indeed, a global autocracy as to understand Murdoch is controlling national democracies. But this particular issue originated with a different autocracy ; the US Christian right oft referred to as the Christian Taliban, whose stated goal is to at least turn the US into a theocracy. And it's not just Trans rights this extremely powerful crowd have in their sights it's also women's rights for they wish to promote a return to the biblical ideal of women as chattel.
Yes it's now a tool to get working people get angry at 'the left' . There was a election in the Netherlands, and I see ' reporters' ( mostly local media, social media, or making campaign adds, ) pushing a microphone in someone's face with questions like : ' What do you think about Transgenders demanding their own toilet ?' or ' they want all children to be gender neutral at schools ' ( or something similar ). No nuances or explanations, just red meat baiting.
*Sidenote:* It is no accident that this culture war nonsense is word-for-word straight out of the USA. The GOP has its tentacles in UK politics. Trans men are men. Trans women are women. "I find trans people icky" is NOT a political argument or reason enough to give a section of society fewer rights than everyone else.
Yes, in life in general, BUT women's sport is protected for a reason and it is not fair in many cases to allow tans women to compete against people born as women. Serina Williams, in my opinion the greatest female tennis player of all time, could not compete with a men's county player. Allowing a talented trans woman tennis player, who transitioned at 16, to compete against Serina would have diminished the sport of women's tennis. If we want to push it to an argument between which is more important, allowing a trans woman to still compete or destroying the protection of women's sport, I would personally say that women's sport has to be protected. Transitioning like everything in life is going to have to come with some compromises and disappointments.
@@markhickson9087 the sports can sort that out themselves, it's not like the biggest issue in the uk and can easy be run by the sports association themselves
The idea is that no one is going to check, but simply trans people will become so afraid of being harassed in public spaces that they will be effectively excluded from society. If you are the theoretical perfectly passing trans women with a beautiful figure, are you going to go into the men's toilet, or go into a men's ward, or the men's changing room? No, you will avoid going to shops, restaurants, avoid the doctor, fear needing to stop at a motorway service station because you drank too much water, so end up you never leaving your house. This is actually the existing reality for many trans people already, far from the stereotype that we are all dying for any chance to saunter round the dingy public loos in the city centre, and this rhetoric only makes this worse. These places are genuinely terrifying for trans people. At the moment we at least know that most service providers are aware of their duty under the law. If we have an issue, we might at least be able to site the Equalities Act and get someone off our backs long enough to get out of there. With that gone it becomes a complete gamble as to whether someone will just decide to take their bad day out on us. It's often forgotten, but the UK has had legal protection for trans people for nearly 20 years, first with Gender Recognition Act in 2004, then with the Equalities Act in 2010. The UK was pioneering in Europe, and the law was set to be further improved and updated as recently as a few years ago. And yet women's sports have not been overrun, toilets are not full of leery men clutching Gender Recognition Certificates, the apocalypse has not happened. Instead, trans people have started to assert their dignity, become part of society, be more visible and feel less afraid of the mob. That is too much for the tory party. We must be put back in our place.
Actually the further improvement you mention was in 2018, very much a Tory proposition. Much as I loathe the Torys they started out right on this one, what happened was the TERFs latched onto the consultation & haven't let it go since. I blame Brexit & the mind-warping Cambridge Analytica campaign before it. Since then bigots have appeared in loud swarms ranting about every subject.
And ARE BY LAW NOW!!!!! I know one company that installed a cat tray because one of the workers identified as a CAT! I would have made sure they used it, or they would be on their way to the job centre.
What about Transmen? Surely what we need is more privacy for all. Many people because of their religion want privacy as do many people of shy disposition. As a woman I hate women shared changing rooms. I don't want other women staring at me undressed.
This is what I've always thought. Lots of small businesses have private, single-occupant bathrooms that are gender neutral. I don't know much about plumbing, but hopefully it could be possible for a business to have several private, gender-neutral toilets, each with their own sink and locked door.
@@lunaangeleclipse9745 we mostly all have private single occupant bathrooms in our homes. It is normal. So I agree, just make public facilities that way too. Problem over.
@@lindyashford7744 In practice, it doesn’t work out like that. In the home, it’s family and guests : behaviour is pretty much guaranteed. In public facilities, there are no safeguards. And what about the problems of a single mother with a 5 year-old son?
And of course transgender men are completely ignored in the conversation. Does she really want a transman, who for all intents and purposes looks very male in 'women only spaces'?
One of the biggest issues is that we are highlighting people’s differences rather than similarities. Does the way someone look determine how they will interact with someone?
I think that is THE questions - although there is mentality behind it. Tattoos etc used to be banned in some 'official' bodies and still in many must ne hidden/nto visible. I iagree with you that we should seek to find that which we share rather than that which divides us. I love your comment.
The issue with the phrasing of the question “who is going to check?” is that it implies a need to check, which only exists because a few people have loudly declared there’s a need to check when there isn’t.
I like James, one of the very few commentators who conducts debate in an adult grown up fashion, not resorting to tropes or populism like a lot of others.
We need to protect children, especially those with autism, from transgender ideology grooming which can lead to irreversible mutilation surgery of perfectly functioning bodies, and hormone treatment.
Imagine the same question, but apply it to schoolchildren. That's what's happening in the US. They literally want to force children to undergo genital examinations just to play on a school sports team or use the toilets. Who's going to check that? And importantly, who would most want that job?
@Spencer Johnson: Umm how about a licensed medical professional? I have a question for you. Why do you think it's okay for biological men to compete against biological women? Is it because you secretly a misognystic bigot. Sounds like it to me. I'll take your silence as proving my point. 🤡
When have Tories worried about details, or actually making their plans work? Total lack of planning hadn't stopped them in the past, why would they start now?
This policy discussed for 6 yrs in Scotland yet the little englander thinks he can up with something new when their obvious intellectual superiors, the Scots, haven't. Hmm!
Transphobes absolutely do realise that, they simply don't care. And most of them openly admit to that. It's funny how often I see the word "narcissist" thrown around by transphobes, when thei level of narcissism is off the scale.
The debate supposedly centres around changing the Gender Recognition Act not the Equality Act. I say supposedly because it's not about that at all, it's about rousing *_any_* fear or bigotry in order to take over political debate.
Given that trans men are often ignored in all these conversations, I'm presuming - as a cis woman who personally has no problems sharing space with anyone - that these safe spaces for "people born as biological women" will be open to trans men too, right?
The biggest problem with this whole argument is not actually about trans women. It's more about "biological" men that would "pretend" to be trans to prey on women. Trans women on HRT have no action down there, so actual trans women who are undertaking HRT are not a threat in anyway. The assumption that a predator would go through all that effort to assault a woman is incredibly farfetched and ridiculous. So let's say they make everyone download an app or something that has their birth gender, and everyone was forced to use it when they enter a space, what about the trans people that have a grc and have legally changed their birth certificate (which is a very freaking long and hard process) how would that come into play? What about the trans people that have had srs and no longer have their boy bits? There's too many levels to this and they are all dumb.
The assumption that a predator would go through all that effort to assault a woman is incredibly farfetched and ridiculous. --> exactly. If they had to do it, we wouldn't have as many random assaults on women as we do already and the whole issue of bathrooms being unsafe wouldn't even exist. If a man wants to assault a woman in a bathroom, he just waits for the coast to be clear and walks in. It's as simple as that.
@@AW-uv3cb exactly, and the cases of "trans women" assaulting "biological women" are like so little. Infact studies show that trans women are 4 times more likely to be assaulted than cis women.
trans women been using womens wards of hospitals and as far as we know not a single negative occurence has occurred, Actual progress for women might come if the government actually made sure actual male rapists were jailed, while doing practically nothing for women this government pretends these new laws will actually make things better. O brien asks a very important question
I listened to you on the show growing up and always respected you're debating skills and openness, now seeing the 'trans issues' come up relentlessly with attacks from all sides, it brings me joy that you actually care about people's lives and experiences☺️
I remember going to a gym in central London where a transgender woman came to the women's only sauna. Ironically, not one of us were attacked or felt threatened. She was obviously post op but if they are going with 'born a woman', then was she not allowed to use the sauna? Physically she looked female so who was gonna do the biological tests? This is madness I have used gender neutral bathrooms/ toilets worldwide and have never had any problems. I have only ever been sexually threatened by a man coming out of the male toilets whom I showed how to use the hand washing facilities. It's not trans women that scare us.
I've come across women in ladies toilets who probably didn't start life as females but I can't be certain. Some women don't look very feminine, just as some men don't look very masculine. It has never bothered me but it clearly bothers some people to the point of hysteria. It takes all sorts!
Well James, over here in the USA, in Florida and Ohio and other right-wing states, male legislators have proposed authorizing school administrators (or themselves, I presume...) to conduct "mandatory genital inspections" of all the kids just to be sure. You know- like Rep.Jim Jordan helped do at Ohio State...
This whole problem we now have in the UK suddenly came to us on the tail of the North Carolina bathroom bill of 2016 for the astute to at least know the sudden concern was imported from the US. And yes we also do know the US religious right has been pouring vast sums of money into the UK to promote their agenda of which has become the UK government agenda. But that astute also know it's not just transwomen of whom are under the cosh, it's also abortion rights and I at least do expect if the incumbent party wins another term of office abortion rights will be squarely up there front and center as the trans issue is now...
We ask who will check, knowing there would be plenty of volunteers self declaring as some kind of "sovereign citizen protection & inspection force", filming an inch away from the faces of anyone they deemed unworthy & hoping for a reaction while they live stream it saying they are a citizen journalist for example.
Unisex single person bathrooms eliminate all this bathroom panic. Very simple solution that works perfectly on that issue. At least in my state in the USA even public venues have handicap restrooms that are single person and can be used by trans people. Obviously, some other issues are a lot more difficult such as women's sports.
@@celeste1421 certain events don't have gender divisions and it's fine. Ultra distance cycling for one, women win these events competing against men. It's perhaps worth checking if these distinctions are applicable everywhere.
@@chetmanley1885 To ultra cycling I would also add the ultra running and equestrian events, where women may stand a chance of outcompeting men. But these few categories are outliers, and in absolutely every other sporting arena, men have the physical advantage.
Why is this discussion ONLY ABOUT TRANS WOMEN!? Why is there no discussion around TRANS MEN?! Why do we care, why do we frame this convo around just the male to female trans?
Remember that this discussion is specifically focused on the perceived notion that trans woman are a significant danger to cis women. The statistics do suggest that trans woman are more likely to commit violence against cis women than violence caused by trans men. This is obvious cherry picking figures though and both pale in comparison to the violence perpetrated by cis men, especially when you include violence against both cis and trans women.
@@greamespens1460 Voter ID isn't a bad thing if issued automatically by the state. Here in NZ you are automatically enrolled to vote, and are automatically sent your voting papers and credentials for each general election... Requiring someone show any other form of ID is voter suppression, that typically and intentionally targets groups that don't tend to support conservative politics
I think that the biggest problem in this issue is that people don't clearly define what they mean by 'transgender'. The rightists will always use terminology to confuse the issue and jump on the 'redmeat' bandwagon. Same with terms like 'woke' and 'politically correct'. JOB is absolutely correct in identifying the issues here. Instead of wading in and taking up a tribal stance, we need to clarify what we mean by the term under discussion. It seems that nuance is no longer understood or accepted. Everything needs to be black/white; yes/no; this/that. Many people taking up these issues can't countenance the 'grey areas'.
@Alan hat if you are answering my point, I think you must have misunderstood my meaning. Are you being critical of both my point and that of JOB? If so, you really have missed the point. This lack of clarity is the problem.
The two people walking towards the door are not really a problem unless the door potentially excludes one of them. Make loos all private non sexed/gendered spaces. Clean and usable by anyone, and private. If that means queues so be it. Just like it would be on a mixed ward. No need for checking because everyone uses the same loo. As to sports events create three types of event as part of a transitioning process for everyone. Women’s, men’s, and all comers events. Sportspeople already have to do checking anyway. The vast majority of people have no criminal intent at all. Those that commit crimes can go through the legal process. Prisons too could be mixed, it might help solve some other issues too, make the authorities think harder about how criminality should be managed, how it should be humanised. For violent criminal the penalties should be greater in terms of access to others anyway. But at least start to think about this whole issue in a way that is not head in the sand stuff. Or a bunch of ideologues imposing things top down.
it's been stirring & building for a few years, mostly since the 2018 consultation on removal of the medical diagnosis for the GRC but TERFs had appeared long before that though they generally stayed in protected spaces like academia because their attitude is unwelcome
I really don't get how or why people are triggered so much by trans people, or treating people as human beings. I was always under the impression that what in is your pants is "private" and there are laws to make it "private" they could change the law so that everyone has to have their privates on show all the time, that would solve the issue, but I'm sure that would then have it's own set of handbag and pearls clutching. the main one being "but that affects me, I want it to only affect them" the argument about "Biological women" is still a bad argument, you can still have "Biological women" that present as male, does he mean "identified by sight at birth as female"?
Imagine the following: a 200+ pound steroidusing male, all clad in jeans and leather, shaved head and full beard, looking like he may have sinister intentions, demands entrance to a womens locker room because he claims he was born female. Ask the same question: Who will check? And to follow up: Who will stop him?
If you always get called transphobic and misogynistic whenever you talk about this then maybe that’s something you should spend some time thinking about.
Here's a radical idea.... instead of making toilets a cultural battleground... why not remove gender from toilets entirely? a local bar i know just has "toilets" that anyone can use. wow. removes the issue entirely. pretty small loos and not very amazing, not exactly where you'd hangout exactly. i blame the pictures above the door, not the people needing to empty their bladders!
The weird thing is if you google muscular trans-men, you will see men who present a traditional physical form of masculinity more effective than a lot of men. Now once this change is enacted, are they honestly going to allow those men into those biological women only spaces?
There's also the dimension to this with the GRC and clinical transitioning process where pychiatrists and related professionals gatekeep/vet who can be the exception to those rules. One thing the more radical people on both the left and right have in common is they want to invalidate that process, for different reasons and outcomes of course, but it was a big step forward for trans people when it happened in 2004. Having been involved in the trans community and wider lgbt communities for along time I'm certain that gender non-conforming "assigned female at birth" women end up being challenged a lot more by these transphobic people because there are so few people who actually transition by comparison. As such the net effect is an enforcement of gender stereotype confirmation onto women. I've thought about this whole "who checks?" thing a lot and it seems like it would be impractical to police it. It's just political noise to sate a certain group of people and I feel like the climate has moved on a bit from where it was in the mid 2010s but the tories are grasping at straws because they've failed on what should be their main thing i.e economics.
It's very important for those of us who may not know how to talk about trans issues as appropriately or sensitively as we'd like to be able to explore our ignorance and learn through discussion with trans people or activists. The difficulty of that is, we don't know on an individual basis the level of trauma (and often there is trauma of some kind, whether that's the feeling of your body not matching your identity or direct abuse) that an individual has gone through and just how an innocent but insensitive comment from someone like me who doesn't know better can factor into all of that trauma. The upset response someone gives to your comment isn't so much an expression of anger against you as it is just all that bottled up tension looking for an outlet. My approach is to try and be as upfront as possible about my lack of understanding and nature of my curiosity, and also to try to not react defensively if I'm called out for holding an opinion that I may need to think about again. It won't prevent the conversation from being difficult, but if having these conversations about identity were easy they'd probably not be that interesting, or important.
One of the best comments I've read. Nobody wants people to bottle stuff up and be quieted away from saying anything, and everyone is a human with humanly emotional reactions to things. You take the right approach, for sure. Hope it's reassuring to be told so. Language is important and can be nuanced but it's also a very crude means to an end of understanding. The only time I care about someone getting something wrong is when they keep doing it enough despite being told otherwise that it evidently must be intentional. If you mean well then you mean well and most people even within heated arguments can grasp that. I've taken the same approach with things I've not understood because I didn't experience them directly, and found it useful. It's never not useful to actually ask people. I learned a few words popularized as "widely accepted" aren't actually. That's not always as obvious and seldom as universal as it tends to get presented as. Social research is often my preference over academic research, as a result (but of course, both is still best).
My experience is that if you're straight & open with your question most people are straight & open with their answer. However, location & environment can make a huge difference so it's best to pick your moment sensitively.
The threat is mostly the fear and not the reality imo. It is in the interests of disruptors like tories, republicans, fascists etc to create fear, hate and division. It is in the interests of humanity, of men and women including all who identify in whatever way is what they need to for themselves which doesn't necessarily fit in with what bigotry and "convention" dictates, to create understanding, love and cooperation.
Out of curiosity, who is checking the British public toilets now if you are in the correct one? Or that you don't have a hidden illegal gun? Most of the time noone, but if you cause trouble it is one of the charges you can get if you cause law enforcement to look better at who you are, where and what you are doing.
absolutelky the volice of measured common sense so absent from the political or onliine debate. Bottom line? How many men would be comfortable with People who look and behave and feel as women in their spaces? Maybe Transwomen should now demand access to male only clubs and spaces to highlight how utterly ridiculous this debate has become.
i'm 36 years old and i've only just now, this second, learned that hospital wards are seperated by gender. can't believe i never knew that. ive been in hospital 4 times too, and it just never occurred to me that my ward-mates were all blokes haha
The norm (?) is that people know which gender they are and they know which gender they are sexually attracted to. Few would find that controversial. Now think about the person who knows their gender but it is not the one they see in the mirror.
I imagine the current government would much rather spend money trying to implement some kind of checks at public toilets/ leisure centres etc than they would on trying to feed or fix the nation they have broken.
I think that there has to be a lot more research into this area of medicine. I have both Transgender men and women as friends. some go for both "top" and "bottom" surgery. to some, seeing the genitalia that they were born with and they don't identify with is too much and they have to have that corrected. to others, the area of the bottom surgery can be, to them too much of a risk from infection and they won't proceed with that.
@@Peter-oe2fe :Common sense' has to be created by knowledge. You will be informed by familiarity with soccer. I would give way to your 'common sense' on that subject. It doesn't bother me at all. But why are you so obsessed with psychology?
The only way UK to deals with a problem is by slightly shifting attention to something that seems relevant that isn't and avoiding and addressing facing the problem at hand. Country is in complete shambles.
Biological women? Trans women aren't robots, James. The word cis exists, it's just the opposite of trans. Its not insulting, it's not othering (unlike your well-meaning use of 'biological women').
Lots of women don’t like the word “cis” being used to describe them. It’s a label which nobody asked for. Women don’t need a prefix or a descriptor. The word “women” on its own is just fine. Nothing changed for them. It’s biological males who want to be women who need to use the word trans. That is it.
@@jak9410 Those people are A, Insulted because the point of the term is to put trans people on an equal level as them. B, lying. Or C, have been lied to about what it means. Guessing you're referring to a bunch of solid As.
@@jak9410 Trans people didn't choose to be called trans, cis people decided that. Cis people also coined cis as the opposite of trans, so go yell at them. Or work out that you also didn't choose the terms right-handed or heterosexual and complain about that. Or don't because terms get coined without our consent all the f-ing time.
I’ve been to plenty of public toilets that were shared, I don’t see the issue… You have a door and don’t care who is behind it or are people afraid women and men washing hands next to each other, then we have a different problem
Hya James I was born in the wrong body but what can I do. My whole life I have been discriminated against trying to be something I’m not!! No easy answer I’m in my mid 60s. All I can hope for is that younger people get a better life and are treated equally Dave
Such a simplistic monologue. I think I'm safe in saying a small proportion of the male populationen have always tried to get into women only spaces, so not sure why O'Brien thinks he's being so clever in reducing the conversation down to "who's going to check?".
And what’s wrong with that? Discrimination is perfectly fine and legal when it’s to protect people. Thats why the blind, deaf, mentally ill e.t.c. aren’t allowed to work on railway maintenance for example.
Bit odd that you've said all the other arguments are reductionist and go on to do the same yourself. This is like asking 'who is going to check that my wife consents? Do I get fifty goes and on the fifty first a copper turns up to ask her?' Law is by consent and punished when not followed. That's how it would work.
LBC started to lose my respect. You can lose your faith (UK is now a non Christian country) but don't lose your morality & common sense. Society is so diluted now, wrong becomes right. It is not Russian or Chinese who will destroy West, a lack of common sense and morality will. Let's hope, i am wrong.
Just watched the interview from 2 years ago with Piers and James, where James is asking for examples of “woke” cancel culture… right as I start this video, James states how he is being called “transphobic” when he discusses these issues. James, pal, you’re proving the point piers was making! They don’t want you to speak about things unless you agree with their position. That is the problem! You don’t talk about it because you know you run the risk of being labeled as transphobic and losing your audience.
While James' comment about ID was meant to be sarcastic, it's obviously where things will end up. If the bar to self ID is continuously lowered then the counterweight will be documentation to support your status. Which is all a bit depressing, but if there are to be any "safe spaces" for anyone, what's the alternative?
"what's the alternative?" A Police Service which solves crimes rather than committing them, a service not a force & an adequately-funded Court service which can judge crimes in a timely manner.
Thank you James for being brave enough to pose this question in a common sense, centrist manner. It's a difficult topic to broach, given the extremes on both sides demanding that they are right without any area for wiggle room. You nailed it mate.
Maybe the issue is less around categorising people and more about making traditionally seperate spaces safe to now be shared spaces. It's already happening all over the place I.e swimming pool changing rooms, shared toilets etc. There is a bigger and far more nuanced discussion around sport that needs to happen though.
The only space I think restrictions should be applied is in womens sports high level competions due to the early testosterone affect on the body growth. In all the other areas it basically comes down to if a person is a decent human being who is respectful of others. With this in mind I have no problem with mixed areas, maybe decent men would be given the opportunity to show how respectful they really are and be able to keep others in their place just by their mere presence.
Completely agree, though it frustrates me that transphobes want to ban access to puberty blockers which would allow trans girls to compete against other girls in a fair way.
@@Angelic_Storm Do puberty blockers have other lasting secondary effects? Can they easily be stopped if the person so wishes? I would like to have more information as I know that prepuberty a person can seem to have a totally diferent out look on the world compared to after puberty.
@@bartrebe Seems like my detailed reply was blocked by youtube.... So the short answer is, as far as the medical community in general is concerned, puberty blockers are safe. Of course, I don't think any medication is 100% safe, as even over the counter medications like Paracetemol are not risk-free. But generally, they are safe. Look up information from actual medical establishments about them to learn more.
We desperately need policy for access to therapy for all, including for transphobes to process the trauma that the enforcement of the gender binary did unto them, and how to break that cycle. Society's commitment to the bit is holding us all back, and has been hurting us for generations. Create things that actually accommodate for the people (accessible toilets, single cubicles etc) rather than perpetual division along constructed lines. "Being is not a competitive enterprise" - Alok Menon
Just remember, the Tories need us to keep busy with culture wars so they don't come under scrutiny for what they've done.
It's ok, we can multi task.....😅
@@casperwallace9685 Yeah, I can carry a pitchfork AND a flaming torch.
Terrifying
@@casperwallace9685 They are like a very bad plate spinning act.
Keep shining the light!
Just a reminder:
1. Illegal things like assault, indecent exposure etc., are already illegal
2. Biological and masculine presenting men can be victims too
3. Biological and feminine presenting women can be perpetrators too
4. If the manliest man is intent on doing something illegal, a "biological women in skirts only" sign will not stop him from entering a room where he intends to do that.
Smashed the nail right on the head!
Amen to that.
Do not worry. I am the manliest man, and as of right now, I do not intend on doing anything illegal!
Really glad you made this point, because I was on the other side of the arguement before. I wanted trans-people to have a seperate space for them in places like changing rooms, bathrooms, and prisons. But, we already have laws about assult and indecent exposure and should just apply them appropriately and that would solve these issues.
My only remaining reservation is sport, but that isn't a legal matter it's a matter of fairness in competition
@@ight001 yeah sport (or competitions like best actress or business women awards) are the only area I think are up for depate. On balance I'm in favour of every discipline's governing body deciding on their own criteria based on some empirical evidence of what gives people an advantage and what doesn't.
My friend is a F to M trans. He has a low masculine voice a beard and is impossible to mistake. Is he going to be banned from the male bathroom? And if so will his presence in the female bathroom cause security to rush in and arrest him and will be then be taken to a police station and have to be biologically verified both documented and physically and then released. Until he wishes to go to the toilet again? It's a vacuous issue that has been manufactured by the Tory right of the right wing to be a shiny object to distract for their own misdeeds. And sorry James you dropped down one number on my speed dial.
He'll be welcome in either bathroom I'd say.
Serious comments welcome !
I'd be surprised if any males using the changing room would be bothered or threatened, unless they we're the brainwashed religious type.
Women on the other hand, Not sure - I mean they may feel threatened but technically there wouldn't be any grounds for their complaints, You can't ban people for how they look.
I completely agree.
I looked after a trans woman on a hospital ward designated for female patients 20 years ago. This was not an individual that 'passed', particularly once they were in their hospital gown, but nevertheless their identity was respected and not one person complained. Everyone's dignity and privacy was respected, as should be the case with everyone in a hospital regardless of gender or location. The other ladies in the room did not express feeling frightened or threatened in any way. It seems odd that a couple of decades ago seems like a more enlightened time! Nowadays this craven and disgusting moral panic would lead to that blameless individual being treated with fear and suspicion simply for existing and being in need of medical care.
From experience fear comes from being the minority in a greater population for it to stand if any fear was experienced, it was quite likely your transgender patient was more frightened of the majority than the majority was of the minority. Not all males in fact I would suggest the majority are not a threat to women regardless as to whether they transition or not.
@@Coelacanth1 I think it’s a safe bet that any trans woman in this position these days would be considerably more scared than the cis women around them!
It’s true we were more enlightened 20 years ago sadly
And women in the same situation have been graped on wards by the delusional man in a dress. More important to make sure that doesn’t happen than hurting someones precious fee fees.
@@steveo4991 why were you wearing a dress?
I’ve lived and worked in SE Asia for many years. Attitudes to trans people are very different there. You soon learn not to care if the person serving you in Boots is trans.
Regardless, the percentage of people with actual gender dysphoria is tiny. And the percentage of those who somehow exploit this situation is again tiny. A tiny percentage of a tiny percentage. Yet, somehow this has been made a burning issue. Methinks this is political misdirection - oh look! A squirrel!
Yes . We English love it apparently ! TERF Island we are called. The other countries laugh at us about this too
O this chimes - I was born and raised in SE Asia, thankfully. When my (adult) child transitioned, people kept assuming it must have been difficult for me. It really wasn't, aside the raging prurience and ignorance of supposedly nice-normal people. It was a massive relief to see my lovely kid grow into themself.
@Pale Rider O but they do
I understand the trans woman population in the UK amounts to 0.1% to in effect describe a few thousand being perceived as a threat to 34 million natal females.
@Pale Rider Yes they do...
I found this segment very thought provoking.
I'm a transwoman and it's actually quite frightening to think that at the start of the year, the main news coverage was just about scotlands push to make it easier to change your birth certificates gender marker.
Now I'm in danger of having human rights removed from me because of the tory parties draconian ideas about gender.
What I do find truly ironic is kemi badenoch. A black woman of African descent who 100 years ago wouldn't have held rights due to her race and gender and would have been segregated; is now trying to push a different kind of segregation on a different minority.
It's Conservative irony at its worst.
🫂 I hope it gets better for you folks over there. Here in the states we (at least democrats) are trying to help lgbt folks here
@@Bored_Barbarian Pretty sure it's worse for Trans people in the US than the UK...
Ours don't have to worry about being shot at least.
@@tomwithey711 To be fair though over here even our kids fear being shot in schools. We all kind of live with that as an everyday fact of life.
It is a truly frightening world with far right voices such as Ms Rowling wading in and shaping political debates and even government policy ideas. She claims to be left leaning though, maybe so ultra left he is far right- George Galloway’s Respect is her party of calling then 🤔
Oh, the Respect and Reform manifestos have many similarities.
Sorry for the Freudian slip of misgendering Ms Rowling, like she does to publicly known trans women.
Ive never understood why a minority who have been discrimated against also discriminate.
I always say, how would those women who are complaining feel if a trans man with a beard walked into the ladies toilets wearing jeans, a tee shirt? Or if a trans man with a beard demanded a place in a women’s refuge because they’ve been attacked? In their definition they would be entitled to both, and James is right, who will check
It obfuscates the line. Both sides ignore this reality. If trans men are allowed refuge in such a place, why not a trans woman or man?
Meanwhile...back on planet Earth...
@@LG-cz6lsyou're welcome to join us here. Trans men exist, you're lack of knowing this speaks bounds about your lived experiences. Which is to say, sheltered.
@@flandersnatch2285 What are you on about? Most of the trans folk I know are men. Just because they needed medical assistance to _be_ at peace with their bodies, doesn't make them any less so.
as a trans woman if i was to be forced to be in a male ward in hospital then i wouldnt go in to hospital and many other trans women would probably feel the same we have used female facillities for decades already and all the fearmongering hasnt happened despite it being LEGAL for trans women to use female facilities.
Yes, Carrie, you just don't care that the presence of a male intact body changes the safe space for a women.
@@casperwallace9685 but what if the women in those safe spaces don't know the person is trans. Who's going to check?
As a trans woman you are in fact a man.
@@casperwallace9685 Many of us have been sharing space with trans women for years (often unknowingly) and it wasn't an issue. Same applies to some of the most vocal anti-trans ppl online. Culture wars are there to distract you from the shitshow that is bad governance, as a belter of a Tory admitted openly a few weeks ago.
@Casper Wallace OK, so where would a woman who had transitioned into a man, has muscles, has a beard, has had bottom surgery, going to go in this hypothetical? Surely not on the same ward with all these hypothetical women who don't want to be in a room with a man? Or do transmen not exist in your universe?
I have just been reading your explanation of this issue in your book on how not to be wrong. I find it difficult as a cis male to have any internal guidance as to what it means to be trans. Even as an elderly person I rejoice in learning knowing that my ignorance is infinite, and I will never have to stop. Without any internal grounding for this issue, I am forced to rely on outside information. It is a bit helpful that the anti-trans faction has consistently shown themselves to be wrong about mostly everything. As I continue with life's journey, I need to remember that others are not here to please me but to be themselves and should always be treated fairly. Easier said than done sometimes.
This isn't about trans people, it's about attempting to legitimise bigotry.
@@alanhat5252 I fully agree that this issue is being used to justify bigotry. My point is that it is difficult for a cis person to understand what it is to be trans and to decide what is right and wrong with positions on versions issues.
@@alanhat5252 no you're wrong.
What a heartening comment.
Men should not be in women's spaces and transgender women should seek to have their own category of facilities. I am not happy to see young 13 year old girls, or myself, having to dress in changing rooms or use public toilets with men as it is upsetting and indecent.
As a former Police Officer, the actual application of a law is something that people frequently forget about.
Especially police officers 😢
Neil, you’re not by any chance from Edinburgh are you?
@@djpandsmm no west midlands Irish;)
You say _forget_ like as if many ever have it in mind to begin with
You mean the police forget about it.
Just for clarity. A non transgender woman can be born with a pp this is known as intersex when someone is born with characteristics within both genders. Intersex people are not (necessarily but can be) transgender. another issue with this new law would mean that transgender men will be forced to use the ladies bathroom and transmen can be extremely masculine and will always present masculine, this has the unintended effect that all the transwoman you just banned will be replaced with transmen who are actually men and will present male only now the transwoman forced to share spaces with men will be at risk of SH or SA or just regular old harassment or assault from cis men. Pointless policy designed to make Transpeople's lives more difficult.
There are also more intersex people in the world than Gingers. Also the reason they *stopped* doing chromosomal in sports is because they kept finding people who thought they were biological women were actually intersex.
A hermaphrodite isn't a trans person or a women
pp 🤣
Exactly. And how would Cis women feel about that turn around. Let's ask Posie, she the one with orange hair.......
For some people, it all comes down to there are only two sexes. Therefore, when it comes to laws, "there are two boxes on the form: man, woman. that's it."
But to me, that leaves intersex people, who are actual living citizens, having to decide which box to mis-describe themselves. The whole point of claiming there are only two boxes is because the boxes are supposed to describe *everyone*.
"so now there are three boxes"
yes - so the whole facade of "there are only two sexes" breaks down in the face of reality and we need to examine why it is sooooo important to certain people that we ignore reality. I never really liked being in the bathroom with other people :). Doesn't matter what they identify as or how they were born or anything. I just prefer to be alone. I honestly don't care about what is in so many other peoples' pants because it has absolutely no bearing on my life.
Have to say that I think this has been a most thoughtful segment. Thoroughly agree with everything you said. It's straight out of the Conservative playbook these days. Deflect attention away from the mess we've made of the country by starting culture wars that anger the public. Well done once again on pointing out this craziness James. 👏
However this isn't conservative, it's US Republican. Observe the US to understand where all this furore we never had before 2016 came from.
@@Coelacanth1 Murdoch is global
Agreed, 100%.
@@yt.personal.identification Indeed, a global autocracy as to understand Murdoch is controlling national democracies. But this particular issue originated with a different autocracy ; the US Christian right oft referred to as the Christian Taliban, whose stated goal is to at least turn the US into a theocracy. And it's not just Trans rights this extremely powerful crowd have in their sights it's also women's rights for they wish to promote a return to the biblical ideal of women as chattel.
Yes it's now a tool to get working people get angry at 'the left' . There was a election in the Netherlands, and I see ' reporters' ( mostly local media, social media, or making campaign adds, ) pushing a microphone in someone's face with questions like : ' What do you think about Transgenders demanding their own toilet ?' or ' they want all children to be gender neutral at schools ' ( or something similar ). No nuances or explanations, just red meat baiting.
*Sidenote:* It is no accident that this culture war nonsense is word-for-word straight out of the USA. The GOP has its tentacles in UK politics.
Trans men are men. Trans women are women. "I find trans people icky" is NOT a political argument or reason enough to give a section of society fewer rights than everyone else.
Trans men are men, trans women are women, and trans people are people. Advocating against their dignity and rights is unacceptable, end of.
Or when they allude that all Transgender people are pedophiles
Yes, in life in general, BUT women's sport is protected for a reason and it is not fair in many cases to allow tans women to compete against people born as women. Serina Williams, in my opinion the greatest female tennis player of all time, could not compete with a men's county player. Allowing a talented trans woman tennis player, who transitioned at 16, to compete against Serina would have diminished the sport of women's tennis. If we want to push it to an argument between which is more important, allowing a trans woman to still compete or destroying the protection of women's sport, I would personally say that women's sport has to be protected. Transitioning like everything in life is going to have to come with some compromises and disappointments.
@@markhickson9087 the sports can sort that out themselves, it's not like the biggest issue in the uk and can easy be run by the sports association themselves
@@markhickson9087 Google "Rene Richards" then get back to me.
Edit:
Then look up "Caster Semenya"
The idea is that no one is going to check, but simply trans people will become so afraid of being harassed in public spaces that they will be effectively excluded from society.
If you are the theoretical perfectly passing trans women with a beautiful figure, are you going to go into the men's toilet, or go into a men's ward, or the men's changing room? No, you will avoid going to shops, restaurants, avoid the doctor, fear needing to stop at a motorway service station because you drank too much water, so end up you never leaving your house. This is actually the existing reality for many trans people already, far from the stereotype that we are all dying for any chance to saunter round the dingy public loos in the city centre, and this rhetoric only makes this worse. These places are genuinely terrifying for trans people.
At the moment we at least know that most service providers are aware of their duty under the law. If we have an issue, we might at least be able to site the Equalities Act and get someone off our backs long enough to get out of there. With that gone it becomes a complete gamble as to whether someone will just decide to take their bad day out on us.
It's often forgotten, but the UK has had legal protection for trans people for nearly 20 years, first with Gender Recognition Act in 2004, then with the Equalities Act in 2010. The UK was pioneering in Europe, and the law was set to be further improved and updated as recently as a few years ago. And yet women's sports have not been overrun, toilets are not full of leery men clutching Gender Recognition Certificates, the apocalypse has not happened.
Instead, trans people have started to assert their dignity, become part of society, be more visible and feel less afraid of the mob. That is too much for the tory party. We must be put back in our place.
Well said 👏
Actually the further improvement you mention was in 2018, very much a Tory proposition.
Much as I loathe the Torys they started out right on this one, what happened was the TERFs latched onto the consultation & haven't let it go since.
I blame Brexit & the mind-warping Cambridge Analytica campaign before it. Since then bigots have appeared in loud swarms ranting about every subject.
Lots of spaces could be made gender neutral
A lot of toilets aren't gendered and never have been because they are single toilets.
But kimi does not want gender-neutral toilets when she went for leadership she made the venue's make all non gendered toilets gendered
Gender neutral toileting facilities are in fact cheaper to construct and work well in smaller spaces.
My non binary mate ( a girl ) still uses the female toilet at work
And ARE BY LAW NOW!!!!! I know one company that installed a cat tray because one of the workers identified as a CAT! I would have made sure they used it, or they would be on their way to the job centre.
Such a great take. My respect for James continues to grow with each opinion I hear
What about Transmen? Surely what we need is more privacy for all. Many people because of their religion want privacy as do many people of shy disposition. As a woman I hate women shared changing rooms. I don't want other women staring at me undressed.
They never care about trans men because there’s no inbuilt fear response
This is what I've always thought. Lots of small businesses have private, single-occupant bathrooms that are gender neutral. I don't know much about plumbing, but hopefully it could be possible for a business to have several private, gender-neutral toilets, each with their own sink and locked door.
@@lunaangeleclipse9745 we mostly all have private single occupant bathrooms in our homes. It is normal. So I agree, just make public facilities that way too. Problem over.
@@lindyashford7744 In practice, it doesn’t work out like that. In the home, it’s family and guests : behaviour is pretty much guaranteed. In public facilities, there are no safeguards. And what about the problems of a single mother with a 5 year-old son?
Yeah, I've always hated the communal changing rooms, I also am not keen on the ones with curtains. I prefer cubicles with doors.
And of course transgender men are completely ignored in the conversation. Does she really want a transman, who for all intents and purposes looks very male in 'women only spaces'?
One of the biggest issues is that we are highlighting people’s differences rather than similarities. Does the way someone look determine how they will interact with someone?
I think that is THE questions - although there is mentality behind it. Tattoos etc used to be banned in some 'official' bodies and still in many must ne hidden/nto visible. I iagree with you that we should seek to find that which we share rather than that which divides us. I love your comment.
The issue with the phrasing of the question “who is going to check?” is that it implies a need to check, which only exists because a few people have loudly declared there’s a need to check when there isn’t.
that's the point he's making
James you're not transphobic nor misogynistic ✌
Well he is if he allows biological males to compete against biological women in sports. Then he is a misogynist.
Yesterday Trump was arrested. Main news on FOX was rainbow flag on Bud Light beer can.
I like James, one of the very few commentators who conducts debate in an adult grown up fashion, not resorting to tropes or populism like a lot of others.
The Tories have simply run out of ideas.
Don't need them when they have culture wars given how useful culture wars are in winning general elections.
Ignore the culture wars: We need to protect trans kids from bigots
Brianna Gheys RIP. We are all still heartbroken
@@jaderington that was just terrible what happened and very little reporting on it!
The Tory party is the party for bigots.
We need to protect children, especially those with autism, from transgender ideology grooming which can lead to irreversible mutilation surgery of perfectly functioning bodies, and hormone treatment.
@@bereal6590
The sad death was widely reported from different angles depending on the type of media.
Imagine the same question, but apply it to schoolchildren. That's what's happening in the US. They literally want to force children to undergo genital examinations just to play on a school sports team or use the toilets. Who's going to check that? And importantly, who would most want that job?
@Spencer Johnson: Umm how about a licensed medical professional? I have a question for you. Why do you think it's okay for biological men to compete against biological women? Is it because you secretly a misognystic bigot. Sounds like it to me. I'll take your silence as proving my point. 🤡
Donald Trump, obviously.
A thought provoking monologue James, nice one.
If the safety of women is of any interest to these people maybe the tens of thousands of unpunished rapists might be a better target
When have Tories worried about details, or actually making their plans work?
Total lack of planning hadn't stopped them in the past, why would they start now?
They don't need to plan when they have their media to blow everything out of proportion
This policy discussed for 6 yrs in Scotland yet the little englander thinks he can up with something new when their obvious intellectual superiors, the Scots, haven't. Hmm!
It makes me really happy to hear someone saying logical and emapthetic things like this, thank you
A trans woman would have difficulty going into men's toilets. Has nobody thought this through?
Transphobes absolutely do realise that, they simply don't care. And most of them openly admit to that. It's funny how often I see the word "narcissist" thrown around by transphobes, when thei level of narcissism is off the scale.
Trans women’s rights are women rights
The equality act does not need changing
The debate supposedly centres around changing the Gender Recognition Act not the Equality Act.
I say supposedly because it's not about that at all, it's about rousing *_any_* fear or bigotry in order to take over political debate.
Great respect for you James
Given that trans men are often ignored in all these conversations, I'm presuming - as a cis woman who personally has no problems sharing space with anyone - that these safe spaces for "people born as biological women" will be open to trans men too, right?
The biggest problem with this whole argument is not actually about trans women. It's more about "biological" men that would "pretend" to be trans to prey on women.
Trans women on HRT have no action down there, so actual trans women who are undertaking HRT are not a threat in anyway.
The assumption that a predator would go through all that effort to assault a woman is incredibly farfetched and ridiculous.
So let's say they make everyone download an app or something that has their birth gender, and everyone was forced to use it when they enter a space, what about the trans people that have a grc and have legally changed their birth certificate (which is a very freaking long and hard process) how would that come into play?
What about the trans people that have had srs and no longer have their boy bits?
There's too many levels to this and they are all dumb.
Plenty of men have assaulted /violated women in women’s only spaces without the need to go through hormones or even just wearing a dress
The assumption that a predator would go through all that effort to assault a woman is incredibly farfetched and ridiculous. --> exactly. If they had to do it, we wouldn't have as many random assaults on women as we do already and the whole issue of bathrooms being unsafe wouldn't even exist. If a man wants to assault a woman in a bathroom, he just waits for the coast to be clear and walks in. It's as simple as that.
@@AW-uv3cb exactly, and the cases of "trans women" assaulting "biological women" are like so little. Infact studies show that trans women are 4 times more likely to be assaulted than cis women.
trans women been using womens wards of hospitals and as far as we know not a single negative occurence has occurred, Actual progress for women might come if the government actually made sure actual male rapists were jailed, while doing practically nothing for women this government pretends these new laws will actually make things better. O brien asks a very important question
@@AW-uv3cbeah it’s not like women ever get assaulted by cis men in public places. It’s definitely just trans women in women’s bathrooms.
ps. i work with a trans women on a construction/ engineering site. she is one of the most grounded, likeable people i have ever worked with
yes, years of self-analysis does that to a person.
I listened to you on the show growing up and always respected you're debating skills and openness, now seeing the 'trans issues' come up relentlessly with attacks from all sides, it brings me joy that you actually care about people's lives and experiences☺️
Annoying culture war distraction. Tories love this obfuscation. Side issue..It affects 0.1 per cent of us. Important issues abound.. Let's get on.
You are 1 of Greats without a doubt and not alone
I remember going to a gym in central London where a transgender woman came to the women's only sauna.
Ironically, not one of us were attacked or felt threatened.
She was obviously post op but if they are going with 'born a woman', then was she not allowed to use the sauna?
Physically she looked female so who was gonna do the biological tests?
This is madness
I have used gender neutral bathrooms/ toilets worldwide and have never had any problems. I have only ever been sexually threatened by a man coming out of the male toilets whom I showed how to use the hand washing facilities.
It's not trans women that scare us.
I've come across women in ladies toilets who probably didn't start life as females but I can't be certain. Some women don't look very feminine, just as some men don't look very masculine. It has never bothered me but it clearly bothers some people to the point of hysteria. It takes all sorts!
Other way round? - some people are hysterical & are looking for something to latch that hysteria on to.
@@alanhat5252 Possibly.
Very true, we need policy makers who are focused on solutions and empirical evidence, not far stretched unrealistic situations
yes we need to be more selective in who we vote for, tie colour is not an indicator of competence, honour or decency.
People seem to be really obsessed with penises these days
If you are male, this is not a new phenomena 😂
Not penises in general, specifically _other people's_ penises.
Well James, over here in the USA, in Florida and Ohio and other right-wing states, male legislators have proposed authorizing school administrators (or themselves, I presume...) to conduct "mandatory genital inspections" of all the kids just to be sure. You know- like Rep.Jim Jordan helped do at Ohio State...
This whole problem we now have in the UK suddenly came to us on the tail of the North Carolina bathroom bill of 2016 for the astute to at least know the sudden concern was imported from the US. And yes we also do know the US religious right has been pouring vast sums of money into the UK to promote their agenda of which has become the UK government agenda. But that astute also know it's not just transwomen of whom are under the cosh, it's also abortion rights and I at least do expect if the incumbent party wins another term of office abortion rights will be squarely up there front and center as the trans issue is now...
Nah, you can't rely on Jordan as he has this really bad habit of looking the other way!
Omg that is horrendous a teacher can be a predator.
I believe Gym Jordan looked the other way....
Yes the USA is insane
Ricky Gervais either knowingly or unknowingly stoking the culture war is dangerous
We ask who will check, knowing there would be plenty of volunteers self declaring as some kind of "sovereign citizen protection & inspection force", filming an inch away from the faces of anyone they deemed unworthy & hoping for a reaction while they live stream it saying they are a citizen journalist for example.
A deeply disturbing authoritarian dystopia.
it won't be just faces they intend to film...
Unisex single person bathrooms eliminate all this bathroom panic. Very simple solution that works perfectly on that issue. At least in my state in the USA even public venues have handicap restrooms that are single person and can be used by trans people.
Obviously, some other issues are a lot more difficult such as women's sports.
The sports thing I think could be solved by eliminating gender division in sports altogether
A troll speaks…
Or at the least, someone who has no understanding of the difference between men and women’s bodies at all.
@@celeste1421 certain events don't have gender divisions and it's fine. Ultra distance cycling for one, women win these events competing against men.
It's perhaps worth checking if these distinctions are applicable everywhere.
@@chetmanley1885 To ultra cycling I would also add the ultra running and equestrian events, where women may stand a chance of outcompeting men. But these few categories are outliers, and in absolutely every other sporting arena, men have the physical advantage.
I believe Priest should be banned from using the mens room if child is in there.
😄 spot on
Why is this discussion ONLY ABOUT TRANS WOMEN!? Why is there no discussion around TRANS MEN?! Why do we care, why do we frame this convo around just the male to female trans?
Remember that this discussion is specifically focused on the perceived notion that trans woman are a significant danger to cis women. The statistics do suggest that trans woman are more likely to commit violence against cis women than violence caused by trans men. This is obvious cherry picking figures though and both pale in comparison to the violence perpetrated by cis men, especially when you include violence against both cis and trans women.
Maybe it's something else the tories want photo id for. Maybe not as it might widen the people who have photo id for voting.
They have it elections in most countries in europe
A photo of what you have between the legs?
@@greamespens1460 if you meant 🆔 for elections it would also be worth baring in mind that most of Europe also issue state id to all citizens
@@shaunhouse8469 yes
@@greamespens1460 Voter ID isn't a bad thing if issued automatically by the state. Here in NZ you are automatically enrolled to vote, and are automatically sent your voting papers and credentials for each general election... Requiring someone show any other form of ID is voter suppression, that typically and intentionally targets groups that don't tend to support conservative politics
I think that the biggest problem in this issue is that people don't clearly define what they mean by 'transgender'. The rightists will always use terminology to confuse the issue and jump on the 'redmeat' bandwagon. Same with terms like 'woke' and 'politically correct'. JOB is absolutely correct in identifying the issues here. Instead of wading in and taking up a tribal stance, we need to clarify what we mean by the term under discussion. It seems that nuance is no longer understood or accepted. Everything needs to be black/white; yes/no; this/that. Many people taking up these issues can't countenance the 'grey areas'.
No, people don't need to define 'transgender' 1) it's defined in law & 2) the *actual* debate is pro- or anti-bigotry.
@Alan hat if you are answering my point, I think you must have misunderstood my meaning. Are you being critical of both my point and that of JOB? If so, you really have missed the point. This lack of clarity is the problem.
Exactly.
The two people walking towards the door are not really a problem unless the door potentially excludes one of them. Make loos all private non sexed/gendered spaces. Clean and usable by anyone, and private. If that means queues so be it. Just like it would be on a mixed ward. No need for checking because everyone uses the same loo. As to sports events create three types of event as part of a transitioning process for everyone. Women’s, men’s, and all comers events. Sportspeople already have to do checking anyway. The vast majority of people have no criminal intent at all. Those that commit crimes can go through the legal process. Prisons too could be mixed, it might help solve some other issues too, make the authorities think harder about how criminality should be managed, how it should be humanised. For violent criminal the penalties should be greater in terms of access to others anyway. But at least start to think about this whole issue in a way that is not head in the sand stuff. Or a bunch of ideologues imposing things top down.
Interesting ideas. But for mixed prisons you're going to need a huge increase in staffing levels.
"P-dolts" (PDLT - People who Don't Like Thinking)
Smoke and Mirrors. Strange how this raises its head now of all times
it's been stirring & building for a few years, mostly since the 2018 consultation on removal of the medical diagnosis for the GRC but TERFs had appeared long before that though they generally stayed in protected spaces like academia because their attitude is unwelcome
Thanks so much for this.
I really don't get how or why people are triggered so much by trans people, or treating people as human beings.
I was always under the impression that what in is your pants is "private" and there are laws to make it "private"
they could change the law so that everyone has to have their privates on show all the time, that would solve the issue, but I'm sure that would then have it's own set of handbag and pearls clutching. the main one being "but that affects me, I want it to only affect them"
the argument about "Biological women" is still a bad argument, you can still have "Biological women" that present as male, does he mean "identified by sight at birth as female"?
Imagine the following: a 200+ pound steroidusing male, all clad in jeans and leather, shaved head and full beard, looking like he may have sinister intentions, demands entrance to a womens locker room because he claims he was born female.
Ask the same question: Who will check?
And to follow up: Who will stop him?
If you always get called transphobic and misogynistic whenever you talk about this then maybe that’s something you should spend some time thinking about.
I applaud you, your honesty and fairness.
Here's a radical idea.... instead of making toilets a cultural battleground... why not remove gender from toilets entirely? a local bar i know just has "toilets" that anyone can use. wow. removes the issue entirely. pretty small loos and not very amazing, not exactly where you'd hangout exactly. i blame the pictures above the door, not the people needing to empty their bladders!
The weird thing is if you google muscular trans-men, you will see men who present a traditional physical form of masculinity more effective than a lot of men. Now once this change is enacted, are they honestly going to allow those men into those biological women only spaces?
They may look masculine but usually the voice, and lack of adams apple give them away 😂
I wonder if this will cause our first openly trans MP Jamie Wallis to step down so much for the Tories planning to make lives better for them
Hasn't he loss the party whip after crashing his car and doing a runner to avoid being breathalysed?
There's also the dimension to this with the GRC and clinical transitioning process where pychiatrists and related professionals gatekeep/vet who can be the exception to those rules. One thing the more radical people on both the left and right have in common is they want to invalidate that process, for different reasons and outcomes of course, but it was a big step forward for trans people when it happened in 2004.
Having been involved in the trans community and wider lgbt communities for along time I'm certain that gender non-conforming "assigned female at birth" women end up being challenged a lot more by these transphobic people because there are so few people who actually transition by comparison. As such the net effect is an enforcement of gender stereotype confirmation onto women.
I've thought about this whole "who checks?" thing a lot and it seems like it would be impractical to police it. It's just political noise to sate a certain group of people and I feel like the climate has moved on a bit from where it was in the mid 2010s but the tories are grasping at straws because they've failed on what should be their main thing i.e economics.
"Who's gonna check?"
- the perfect question. 👏
How about the police?
@@jaws392 and when a copper says i dont believe you are a man drop your trousers whould you be fine with that ?
@@vincentvangogh8092 No! but if a woman reports a man in the Women's locker room, then the police should be involved.
It's very important for those of us who may not know how to talk about trans issues as appropriately or sensitively as we'd like to be able to explore our ignorance and learn through discussion with trans people or activists.
The difficulty of that is, we don't know on an individual basis the level of trauma (and often there is trauma of some kind, whether that's the feeling of your body not matching your identity or direct abuse) that an individual has gone through and just how an innocent but insensitive comment from someone like me who doesn't know better can factor into all of that trauma. The upset response someone gives to your comment isn't so much an expression of anger against you as it is just all that bottled up tension looking for an outlet.
My approach is to try and be as upfront as possible about my lack of understanding and nature of my curiosity, and also to try to not react defensively if I'm called out for holding an opinion that I may need to think about again. It won't prevent the conversation from being difficult, but if having these conversations about identity were easy they'd probably not be that interesting, or important.
One of the best comments I've read. Nobody wants people to bottle stuff up and be quieted away from saying anything, and everyone is a human with humanly emotional reactions to things. You take the right approach, for sure. Hope it's reassuring to be told so. Language is important and can be nuanced but it's also a very crude means to an end of understanding. The only time I care about someone getting something wrong is when they keep doing it enough despite being told otherwise that it evidently must be intentional. If you mean well then you mean well and most people even within heated arguments can grasp that.
I've taken the same approach with things I've not understood because I didn't experience them directly, and found it useful. It's never not useful to actually ask people. I learned a few words popularized as "widely accepted" aren't actually. That's not always as obvious and seldom as universal as it tends to get presented as. Social research is often my preference over academic research, as a result (but of course, both is still best).
My experience is that if you're straight & open with your question most people are straight & open with their answer.
However, location & environment can make a huge difference so it's best to pick your moment sensitively.
While we're all philosophising over which bits and bobs should be allowed into which loo, people in line are still dying for a wee.
The threat is mostly the fear and not the reality imo.
It is in the interests of disruptors like tories, republicans, fascists etc to create fear, hate and division.
It is in the interests of humanity, of men and women including all who identify in whatever way is what they need to for themselves which doesn't necessarily fit in with what bigotry and "convention" dictates, to create understanding, love and cooperation.
Graham Linehan puts his hand up.
Out of curiosity, who is checking the British public toilets now if you are in the correct one? Or that you don't have a hidden illegal gun? Most of the time noone, but if you cause trouble it is one of the charges you can get if you cause law enforcement to look better at who you are, where and what you are doing.
Maybe all public toilets should be set up like they do at big outdoor events and have individual units with seating room only.!!!!
absolutelky the volice of measured common sense so absent from the political or onliine debate. Bottom line? How many men would be comfortable with People who look and behave and feel as women in their spaces? Maybe Transwomen should now demand access to male only clubs and spaces to highlight how utterly ridiculous this debate has become.
i'm 36 years old and i've only just now, this second, learned that hospital wards are seperated by gender. can't believe i never knew that. ive been in hospital 4 times too, and it just never occurred to me that my ward-mates were all blokes haha
It was not a clue that they only talked about Arsenal?
Exactly! Who cares?
they aren't always, but how nice you had that experience.
Is blokes a gender ?
@@time4change878 Genetic males who identify with a specific sports team
At last some common sense spoken on this issue. Thank you James.
The norm (?) is that people know which gender they are and they know which gender they are sexually attracted to. Few would find that controversial. Now think about the person who knows their gender but it is not the one they see in the mirror.
I imagine the current government would much rather spend money trying to implement some kind of checks at public toilets/ leisure centres etc than they would on trying to feed or fix the nation they have broken.
Trans Rights are Human Rights...Glad you're giving The Trans Community a platform Thanks James.
Well , as a Conservative, " Let the Free market decide that point Sir "
I think that there has to be a lot more research into this area of medicine. I have both Transgender men and women as friends. some go for both "top" and "bottom" surgery. to some, seeing the genitalia that they were born with and they don't identify with is too much and they have to have that corrected. to others, the area of the bottom surgery can be, to them too much of a risk from infection and they won't proceed with that.
A fantastic comment
I don't know what I don't know.
Happy to accept other folk as they are.
Simple...
It's not medicine, it's mutilation!
@@Peter-oe2fe
What is, Peter? Do you have experience of this - or are you fortified by the Daily Mail?
@@robertcottam8824 No, I am informed by common sense. Oh, and biology!
@@Peter-oe2fe
:Common sense' has to be created by knowledge.
You will be informed by familiarity with soccer. I would give way to your 'common sense' on that subject. It doesn't bother me at all.
But why are you so obsessed with psychology?
I don't have any issue withixed weds, u get mixed nurses. Anything needing privacy goes on behind closed curtains. This is nuts.
Great conversation James.
We can all wear symbols on our jackets… you know, like the jews in ww2. We all know what’s coming next if we go down this rabbit hole don’t we?
Unsurprisingly, trans people were also targeted in that period. They're an easy go-to for the fash-minded.
The only way UK to deals with a problem is by slightly shifting attention to something that seems relevant that isn't and avoiding and addressing facing the problem at hand. Country is in complete shambles.
Biological women? Trans women aren't robots, James. The word cis exists, it's just the opposite of trans. Its not insulting, it's not othering (unlike your well-meaning use of 'biological women').
Lots of women don’t like the word “cis” being used to describe them. It’s a label which nobody asked for. Women don’t need a prefix or a descriptor. The word “women” on its own is just fine. Nothing changed for them.
It’s biological males who want to be women who need to use the word trans. That is it.
@@jak9410 Those people are A, Insulted because the point of the term is to put trans people on an equal level as them. B, lying. Or C, have been lied to about what it means.
Guessing you're referring to a bunch of solid As.
@@jak9410 Trans people didn't choose to be called trans, cis people decided that. Cis people also coined cis as the opposite of trans, so go yell at them. Or work out that you also didn't choose the terms right-handed or heterosexual and complain about that. Or don't because terms get coined without our consent all the f-ing time.
I’ve been to plenty of public toilets that were shared, I don’t see the issue… You have a door and don’t care who is behind it or are people afraid women and men washing hands next to each other, then we have a different problem
Hya James I was born in the wrong body but what can I do. My whole life I have been discriminated against trying to be something I’m not!!
No easy answer I’m in my mid 60s. All I can hope for is that younger people get a better life and are treated equally Dave
Such a simplistic monologue. I think I'm safe in saying a small proportion of the male populationen have always tried to get into women only spaces, so not sure why O'Brien thinks he's being so clever in reducing the conversation down to "who's going to check?".
@@assses-3216 I'm not taking aim at anyone, unless it's O'Brien for being so simplistic.
Isn't this change discriminatory?
And what’s wrong with that? Discrimination is perfectly fine and legal when it’s to protect people. Thats why the blind, deaf, mentally ill e.t.c. aren’t allowed to work on railway maintenance for example.
@@steveo4991 keep digging a hole for yourself
@@stephrichards4611 Project and cope harder.
My word , what a load of guff.
Bit odd that you've said all the other arguments are reductionist and go on to do the same yourself.
This is like asking 'who is going to check that my wife consents? Do I get fifty goes and on the fifty first a copper turns up to ask her?'
Law is by consent and punished when not followed. That's how it would work.
LBC started to lose my respect. You can lose your faith (UK is now a non Christian country) but don't lose your morality & common sense. Society is so diluted now, wrong becomes right. It is not Russian or Chinese who will destroy West, a lack of common sense and morality will. Let's hope, i am wrong.
Always remember, whoever someone wants to be is none of your fooking business 😂
What if they want to be protective of their own ideas?
@@davidatkinson5858 it’s none of your business David.
my elderly mother doesn't want to get changed at a swimming pool changing rooms in front of a bloke, what's wrong with that? Have some empathy.
@@stevenicol1 wondering how a transgender person gets changed is none of your business.
@@jafboxed It's not your business if a women doesn't want a man in the changing room. Stop being a misogynist, it's 2023.
Just watched the interview from 2 years ago with Piers and James, where James is asking for examples of “woke” cancel culture… right as I start this video, James states how he is being called “transphobic” when he discusses these issues. James, pal, you’re proving the point piers was making! They don’t want you to speak about things unless you agree with their position. That is the problem! You don’t talk about it because you know you run the risk of being labeled as transphobic and losing your audience.
While James' comment about ID was meant to be sarcastic, it's obviously where things will end up. If the bar to self ID is continuously lowered then the counterweight will be documentation to support your status. Which is all a bit depressing, but if there are to be any "safe spaces" for anyone, what's the alternative?
"what's the alternative?"
A Police Service which solves crimes rather than committing them, a service not a force & an adequately-funded Court service which can judge crimes in a timely manner.
absolutely brilliant
Thank you James for being brave enough to pose this question in a common sense, centrist manner. It's a difficult topic to broach, given the extremes on both sides demanding that they are right without any area for wiggle room. You nailed it mate.
Maybe the issue is less around categorising people and more about making traditionally seperate spaces safe to now be shared spaces. It's already happening all over the place I.e swimming pool changing rooms, shared toilets etc. There is a bigger and far more nuanced discussion around sport that needs to happen though.
The only space I think restrictions should be applied is in womens sports high level competions due to the early testosterone affect on the body growth. In all the other areas it basically comes down to if a person is a decent human being who is respectful of others. With this in mind I have no problem with mixed areas, maybe decent men would be given the opportunity to show how respectful they really are and be able to keep others in their place just by their mere presence.
Completely agree, though it frustrates me that transphobes want to ban access to puberty blockers which would allow trans girls to compete against other girls in a fair way.
@@Angelic_Storm Do puberty blockers have other lasting secondary effects? Can they easily be stopped if the person so wishes? I would like to have more information as I know that prepuberty a person can seem to have a totally diferent out look on the world compared to after puberty.
@@bartrebe Seems like my detailed reply was blocked by youtube.... So the short answer is, as far as the medical community in general is concerned, puberty blockers are safe. Of course, I don't think any medication is 100% safe, as even over the counter medications like Paracetemol are not risk-free. But generally, they are safe. Look up information from actual medical establishments about them to learn more.
I agree.
I'm gonna check. Problem solved.
We desperately need policy for access to therapy for all, including for transphobes to process the trauma that the enforcement of the gender binary did unto them, and how to break that cycle. Society's commitment to the bit is holding us all back, and has been hurting us for generations. Create things that actually accommodate for the people (accessible toilets, single cubicles etc) rather than perpetual division along constructed lines.
"Being is not a competitive enterprise" - Alok Menon
Trans is such BS quicker the govt get rid of it the better