Stockfish used a few pawns, a Queen, some knights and bishops and a rook to checkmate you, everything else was in its deep reserve. So when you took out a pawn or rook or knight it used what was left to launch its standard attack, but when you removed its Queen you effected its core attacking forces, (I.E., removing forces it had no indention of using had no effect on its attack.)
AI knowledgeable is arguably more useful than being good at chess if your only goal is to beat engines. The technical restrictions are the real bottleneck of engines skill.
Brilliant, that’s how I used to handicap the mixed levels of tennis players on some ‘match play’ training nights… if someone lost a game they start the next at fifteen love up, and if they lost the next game they’re thirty love up, or they drop back by one spot if they won. Kept everyone competitive.
To be fair stockfish level 8 on lichess is also not even close to the full power of stockfish 15. I think it's like 400-600 points lower? That tells you how crazy strong we've made engines lol
@@scoutbane1651 Hi Scout.I never played an "engine", but it occurred 2 Me what if a weaker engine had been given the advantage of "more points. Not that I'd learn -just a curiosity of it's method.
Haha I really felt that one! You could try the same challenge but with increment, I reckon you could shave a couple of points off then. Or, you could steadily add points of material to your side, converting pieces to better pieces etc until you could win and see how that compared to deducting points from SF.
@@ChessVibesOfficial can you do this with stockfish 16 where stockfish 16 has 10 mins thinking in total time? Has any human in the world succeded with that
I'm not a fan of 1-minute games. I don't think they're good for learning. I would try the same format but in a 3-minute game with increment so there's no flagging. And to save time, just start with a +5 point advantage.
How about beating Stockfish in correspondence chess, that is limitless time control? It usually moves pretty fast anyway, so you could walk us through the thought process, and see how much handicap that would take. I think it would be easier.
How he says "good luck Stockfish" dead serious in the very first game with the 3000 elo engine and no changes this confidence is refreshing lmao. Must be a masochistic experience
Absolutely loved this video, a really interesting exercise! The 1mn time limit does make it super hard, I’m sure a 10mn time would give you more wriggle room. I’m the old days of computer chess, I found I would outperform the computer at longer times, but I’ve no idea whether that would still apply. Anyway, we’ll done!!
Basically the only thing that prevent stockfish from crushing you even 20 points of material behind is that he is considering you as his equivalent. He is only playing lines that he can't refute himself. But if he "know" that your not able to calculate any of those lines he would spend ~100ms per move and proceed to demolish you or Magnus Carlsen. All he has to do is avoid complications and play instantly. Stockfish is a 3900+ ELO bullet player (according to CCRL 40/2 format which is comparable to bullet) and crush all the other engines with a large margin in this time control. I'm pretty sure no human would never beat him if an adaptive strategy depending on the opponent estimated strength was implemented in stockfish.
As an example Hikaru Nakamura made a RUclips series where he casually crush 2300+ rated player sacrificing his queen against a piece, in 3+0 time control. But he know the good stategy like not exchanging too much etc. So imagine what an engine would do in bullet. He would smash the piss out of us
Guess before watching the video: I've beaten stockfish with the queen removed before and I'm around 1600 rating so I'd say you can do it with a 5 point lead, definitely with a queen though. Edit: Oh wait it's bullet, I'm changing my guess to you being a queen up. EditEdit: Yup, removing the queen makes Stockfish really docile, always ok with trading pieces for some reason.
Idea for future video: Try to beat Stockfish with unlimited number of take backs. EDIT: I.e. no time control. No nothing. Just try to beat the engine (at a really high level) and do whatever it takes (except using another engine of course).
My idea too. Try thousand of different things and if that's not enough, then exploit that Stockfish will sometimes pick worse moves just to be less predictable.
I'm not sure if there are any known lines where Stockfish loses when playing from turn 1 with any sort of reasonable time control. There are a few where Stockfish loses from a forced opening.
I did that as a child multiple times with Chessmaster 2100 (?). Today when you try, you just instantly realize how vast of a game chess is and how little you know about it…
@@G.Aaron.Fishersometimes (not often) there are openings were stockfish things that the wrong player is better. (I don't know if there are any known in current stockfish)
I actually did predict that it would take a queen missing for you to win. I think your strategy of using every opportunity to exchange pieces was a good idea and makes good chess sense. I also think that playing only a 1 minute game, particularly with no increment, was really a disadvantage for you... Maybe try 1 minute with a small increment instead?
I think you should play classical against Stockfish and play as long as you win, not taking away any material. That way your content problems would disappear =)
Try beating Stockfish 8 on even material in one single game but you undo thousands of moves trying different things or maybe even trying to make him do something stupid if he decides 10 times on the same decision (there's some RNG in which move he chooses because otherwise you could just let him play itself and learn his one line and then you could beat him without outside help).
It'd be cool to see the same type of video, but with increasing time odds instead of piece odds. For example, the first game you play Stockfish in a 10 minute vs 10 minute game, then if you lose play a 10 minute vs 5 minute game, then 10 minute vs 3 minute, 10 vs 1 minute, 10 vs 30 seconds, then 10 minutes vs 15 seconds.
Play Stockfish over and over until you win again, but instead of removing 1 point of Stockfish's material for each lose, add 1 point of material to your pieces
Your thumbnail makes it appear that you played more games than is material on the board to remove from stockfish. My guest is 0-2, advantage stockfish, 3 even odds, 4 or more advantage Nelson. For me, you would need to double those numbers.
This is a fun one because you basically put youtself into the Martin chair, makes me wonder how you'd do against stockfish in the kind of advantages you gave martin.
Remake the video but it’s you vs stockfish with just a king , keep playing until you lose, add 1 piece of material every time you win until stockfish has enough material to win
This is actually possible without talking material from Stockfish. Level 8 Stockfish is designed to blunder once in a while. That wouldn't be possible against actual max stockfish.
Day 11 or something (idk at this point) of posting my chess puzzle: The FEN: 2K5/PP6/pk1p4/npb2n2/2rpb2p/4ppp1/8/6rq w - - 0 1 Its white to play and win. I'm not giving in until this puzzle gets featured lol
Can you manually limit Stockfish's calculation time, or depth? See how shallow a depth you have to take it to before you can win, or how many milliseconds of thought time it needs to still beat you.
Try to beat Stockfisch in a 20 minute game with a knight handicap! That would be fun and educational! It’s nice to keep pawns intact, also bishops are too essential for attacks. The knight handicap is just perfect.
@@tomriddle2257 he is an NM, he for sure can do it…while GM and super GM can win with a two pawn handicap Did u not see the main factor causing him not to beat sf even with knights handicap? It was the time… but with 20min, he can for sure win as he doesn’t seem like a very fast player
A GM can win with a pawn advantage? Can, sure, but won’t. Even if you keep the 1 pawn advantage until the endgame, it’s often a draw. Stockfisch itself can’t safely convert the pawn advantage into a win, but you claim a GM can. Maybe if the GM uses some beads.
@@umershaikh7179 I tried now: SF 14.1 NUE against itself. One side had pawn handicap. Result: Draw. Ok it’s just 1 game. Still, SF should always take the win, if a GM can do sometimes.
Maybe instead of removing stockfish's pieces, you can add more pieces for yourself. It would put up for a bigger challenge because you'd have to trade more when you're up material.
The ELO score is configured such that for every 400 points of separation between the ELO ratings of any two competitors, the lesser ranked one will statistically have a 10% chance of victory. As you´ve played near enough to 100 games, meaning a 1% win-to-loss ratio, and _Stockfish_ has a rating (you said) of 3000, that means that your rating is about 2200. Seems low, and I think the discrepancy is the crucial competitive attribute that computers do not get distracted or fatigued; however, because you are handicapping _Stockfish_ each time, the gap in ELO should be even greater.
You should play stockfish right up until the moment where you think the game is hopelessly irretrievable, and then switch sides. Just to see if stockfish can get itself out of the mess it created.
Level 8 is not max Stockfish; it's made to make mistakes. Plus, no browser based Stockfish will ever be good. For best results, you should use profile built Stockfish on fancy CPU with AVX 512 support in a minimalistic browser. If you don't have the hardware, borrow it from a friend (you probably do).
You want ideas against Stockfish? Try playing Stockfish, but Stockfish has no pawns! It's 8 points of material, instead of 9. Are pawns truly the soul of chess?
How well did you do, guys? I'm hopeless. I drew wtih queen, knight and pawn ahead and won with a queen and two knights up. That's how much material I needed to beat Stockfish. My FIDE rating is currently 1892.
@@brianbuckman6908 I beat Stockfish in my first ever game, so I had to start giving it material. I lost when he was up 12 queens. (I'm 100 rated on Lichess)
10:04 im not a im, nm, gm, fm or anything else i literally have 500 elo but couldnt you go to Re1 with any rook to protect both rooks? or is it pinned or sum
I did it without a queen for a stockfish, was pretty easy, just trading down and down. The hardest part was not blundering anything in a stupid way :) update: obviously not in a 1 minute game
Iirc Hikaru could do it with 2 points, but one hour game and he lost most and only won a few (also he managed to draw a few against Komodo with just 1 point advamtage which was impressive), so I assume Nelson can do it with 4 or 5 and if more than 5, then Stockfish 8 is probably harder to beat on 1 minute vs on 1 hour.
Dude I'm beating Komodo max on com without odds every second or third game if I make him play sth just very, very slightly off like Caro or Scandi ;p Hikaru only drawing Komodo with pawn odds in multiple games is actually pathethic unless it was bullet :D
Chess Vibes: I remove Pawn to weaken Stockfish, so I can win
Stockfish: So you help me to develop?
free gambit
@@BigDBrian yessir
and he sacrificed THE GAAAMMMMEEEEE
Game 97 is just Nelson vs a King and a pawn 😆 🤣 😂
Actually that would be game 38 🤓
And he has a long grey beard....🤣
@@JimmyBoosterCrate
I'm gonna out-actually you, fellow nerd.
It would be game 39, since game 1 is even and game 2 is -1, 3 is -2 etc.. 😉
Omg... even after the war ends, Nelson and Stockfish are still playing!
@@JimmyBoosterCrate r/woooosh
You should challenge stockfish on a longer time control (maybe blitz?) - start with a 9 point advantage and work your way back 0 until you lose
"What can stockfish possibly do without a queen?"
Hikaru:
Hikaru was playing against 3700 rated stockfish (15)
For those wondering, the big vase filled with pawns from earlier videos were all pawns taken from stockfish.
ha ha ha
Stockfish used a few pawns, a Queen, some knights and bishops and a rook to checkmate you, everything else was in its deep reserve. So when you took out a pawn or rook or knight it used what was left to launch its standard attack, but when you removed its Queen you effected its core attacking forces, (I.E., removing forces it had no indention of using had no effect on its attack.)
AI knowledgeable is arguably more useful than being good at chess if your only goal is to beat engines. The technical restrictions are the real bottleneck of engines skill.
You should do this again but remove everything on the king side.
Brilliant, that’s how I used to handicap the mixed levels of tennis players on some ‘match play’ training nights… if someone lost a game they start the next at fifteen love up, and if they lost the next game they’re thirty love up, or they drop back by one spot if they won. Kept everyone competitive.
2 wins, 1 draw, 7 losses. That's not a bad record against Stockfish
This is fun 4 Us. Oh Nels, U need more time to cogitate.
To be fair stockfish level 8 on lichess is also not even close to the full power of stockfish 15. I think it's like 400-600 points lower? That tells you how crazy strong we've made engines lol
@@scoutbane1651 Hi Scout.I never played an "engine", but it occurred 2 Me what if a weaker engine had been given the advantage of "more points. Not that I'd learn -just a curiosity of it's method.
The last one wasn't a win.
@@robertakerman3570 stockfish 8 will lose to stockfish 15 nnue even up a queen
Haha I really felt that one! You could try the same challenge but with increment, I reckon you could shave a couple of points off then.
Or, you could steadily add points of material to your side, converting pieces to better pieces etc until you could win and see how that compared to deducting points from SF.
Good idea, Rob!
@@ChessVibesOfficial can you do this with stockfish 16 where stockfish 16 has 10 mins thinking in total time?
Has any human in the world succeded with that
He would play until he removes Stockfish's king
I love his optimism every game, yeah I’m up 2 pawns I’ll trade to an endgame and win, like dude you’re screwed.
Same experiment, but Stockfish always 1 minute, you 5 minutes.
Based on the title I take it Nelson discovered time travel ?
I'm not a fan of 1-minute games. I don't think they're good for learning. I would try the same format but in a 3-minute game with increment so there's no flagging. And to save time, just start with a +5 point advantage.
How about beating Stockfish in correspondence chess, that is limitless time control? It usually moves pretty fast anyway, so you could walk us through the thought process, and see how much handicap that would take. I think it would be easier.
Would love to see unlimited time vs against SF8. Start with a pawn odds though as the even match should be pointless.
If I tried this challenge, even against Level 1 Stockfish, I'd end up drawing against a bare King and losing all the games leading up to that one.
For some reason, Lichess Stockfish 1 is super strong at short time controls.
Interesting! Would you play better in this situation with a two-minute time control? Or would Stockfish play that much better also, with extra time?
Play Stockfish with 5 minutes and Stockfish has 1 minute.
Nelson: goodluck stockfish
Stockfish: no good luck to you
🤣🤣
How he says "good luck Stockfish" dead serious in the very first game with the 3000 elo engine and no changes this confidence is refreshing lmao. Must be a masochistic experience
Absolutely loved this video, a really interesting exercise! The 1mn time limit does make it super hard, I’m sure a 10mn time would give you more wriggle room. I’m the old days of computer chess, I found I would outperform the computer at longer times, but I’ve no idea whether that would still apply. Anyway, we’ll done!!
Well, I have an idea whether that still applies. Lol
It definitely still applies. Computer running on a fast computer destroys humans at blitz
No one can beat the engines anymore
I was quite proud when I defeated Stockfish with only a queen and a king haha
I’m guessing you need 7 points of material, but seeing 97 games makes me think it’s more
Basically the only thing that prevent stockfish from crushing you even 20 points of material behind is that he is considering you as his equivalent. He is only playing lines that he can't refute himself. But if he "know" that your not able to calculate any of those lines he would spend ~100ms per move and proceed to demolish you or Magnus Carlsen. All he has to do is avoid complications and play instantly.
Stockfish is a 3900+ ELO bullet player (according to CCRL 40/2 format which is comparable to bullet) and crush all the other engines with a large margin in this time control. I'm pretty sure no human would never beat him if an adaptive strategy depending on the opponent estimated strength was implemented in stockfish.
As an example Hikaru Nakamura made a RUclips series where he casually crush 2300+ rated player sacrificing his queen against a piece, in 3+0 time control. But he know the good stategy like not exchanging too much etc. So imagine what an engine would do in bullet.
He would smash the piss out of us
Beautiful performance with a great idea. You had me laughing several times. My bet was -8 would do the trick. Anyway, thanks for the show!
This was really fun to watch 👍
Guess before watching the video: I've beaten stockfish with the queen removed before and I'm around 1600 rating so I'd say you can do it with a 5 point lead, definitely with a queen though.
Edit: Oh wait it's bullet, I'm changing my guess to you being a queen up.
EditEdit: Yup, removing the queen makes Stockfish really docile, always ok with trading pieces for some reason.
Alternative title: I Played Hans Niemann Over and Over Until I Won
Correction: I Played Hans Niemann Over And Over Until I Overcame His Cheating
Nelson the goat: It's not over until I win
Idea for future video: Try to beat Stockfish with unlimited number of take backs.
EDIT: I.e. no time control. No nothing. Just try to beat the engine (at a really high level) and do whatever it takes (except using another engine of course).
My idea too. Try thousand of different things and if that's not enough, then exploit that Stockfish will sometimes pick worse moves just to be less predictable.
Would like to see this too, but I doubt takebacks would really help enough that there would be any chance.
I'm not sure if there are any known lines where Stockfish loses when playing from turn 1 with any sort of reasonable time control. There are a few where Stockfish loses from a forced opening.
I did that as a child multiple times with Chessmaster 2100 (?). Today when you try, you just instantly realize how vast of a game chess is and how little you know about it…
@@G.Aaron.Fishersometimes (not often) there are openings were stockfish things that the wrong player is better. (I don't know if there are any known in current stockfish)
I actually did predict that it would take a queen missing for you to win. I think your strategy of using every opportunity to exchange pieces was a good idea and makes good chess sense.
I also think that playing only a 1 minute game, particularly with no increment, was really a disadvantage for you... Maybe try 1 minute with a small increment instead?
I love your videos they really help me to get better at chess
I thought you would win with a 3 point advantage but I guess I underestimated how much time was going to be a factor
Not really fair because the clock is much more of a handicap for a human player than stockfish
He did not go against stockfish, he became stockfish
Chess Vibes:I get more points to win
Stockfish:I can still win tho
I think you should play classical against Stockfish and play as long as you win, not taking away any material. That way your content problems would disappear =)
Try beating Stockfish 8 on even material in one single game but you undo thousands of moves trying different things or maybe even trying to make him do something stupid if he decides 10 times on the same decision (there's some RNG in which move he chooses because otherwise you could just let him play itself and learn his one line and then you could beat him without outside help).
It'd be cool to see the same type of video, but with increasing time odds instead of piece odds. For example, the first game you play Stockfish in a 10 minute vs 10 minute game, then if you lose play a 10 minute vs 5 minute game, then 10 minute vs 3 minute, 10 vs 1 minute, 10 vs 30 seconds, then 10 minutes vs 15 seconds.
After infinite games, you should theoretically be able to remove Stockfish’s king from the board.
I love the happiness when he won
now i realize aman's queenless speedrun's difficulty.. pretty tough tbh
Play Stockfish over and over until you win again, but instead of removing 1 point of Stockfish's material for each lose, add 1 point of material to your pieces
U vs stock fish with no pawn at all
I think Nelson wins when Stockfish's King is removed before the start of the game
Your thumbnail makes it appear that you played more games than is material on the board to remove from stockfish. My guest is 0-2, advantage stockfish, 3 even odds, 4 or more advantage Nelson. For me, you would need to double those numbers.
That 1 minute blitz is a huge advantage for stockfish. I think if Nelson were not under such time pressure my prediction would have been good.
Great job. That looked tough. Had to laugh at the last game
This is a fun one because you basically put youtself into the Martin chair, makes me wonder how you'd do against stockfish in the kind of advantages you gave martin.
“Things are looking great”
3 moves later
“I’m screwed” 😂
Remake the video but it’s you vs stockfish with just a king , keep playing until you lose, add 1 piece of material every time you win until stockfish has enough material to win
Idea: Stockfish plays the white side and if white wins, black looses a point of material for the next game.
This is actually possible without talking material from Stockfish. Level 8 Stockfish is designed to blunder once in a while. That wouldn't be possible against actual max stockfish.
Day 11 or something (idk at this point) of posting my chess puzzle:
The FEN: 2K5/PP6/pk1p4/npb2n2/2rpb2p/4ppp1/8/6rq w - - 0 1
Its white to play and win.
I'm not giving in until this puzzle gets featured lol
Can you manually limit Stockfish's calculation time, or depth? See how shallow a depth you have to take it to before you can win, or how many milliseconds of thought time it needs to still beat you.
Game one with Stockfish: 8 pawns, two bishops, two knights, two rooks, a king, ad a queen. game 100 with Stockfish: A king.
Try to beat Stockfisch in a 20 minute game with a knight handicap! That would be fun and educational!
It’s nice to keep pawns intact, also bishops are too essential for attacks. The knight handicap is just perfect.
Knight handicap in 20min game should be very easy for him …
@@umershaikh7179 Very easy? Do you know how painful it is to play against sf? Sure, it’s not hard to at least draw, but to win? For sure not easy.
@@tomriddle2257 he is an NM, he for sure can do it…while GM and super GM can win with a two pawn handicap
Did u not see the main factor causing him not to beat sf even with knights handicap? It was the time… but with 20min, he can for sure win as he doesn’t seem like a very fast player
A GM can win with a pawn advantage? Can, sure, but won’t.
Even if you keep the 1 pawn advantage until the endgame, it’s often a draw. Stockfisch itself can’t safely convert the pawn advantage into a win, but you claim a GM can. Maybe if the GM uses some beads.
@@umershaikh7179 I tried now: SF 14.1 NUE against itself. One side had pawn handicap. Result: Draw.
Ok it’s just 1 game. Still, SF should always take the win, if a GM can do sometimes.
Maybe instead of removing stockfish's pieces, you can add more pieces for yourself. It would put up for a bigger challenge because you'd have to trade more when you're up material.
The ELO score is configured such that for every 400 points of separation between the ELO ratings of any two competitors, the lesser ranked one will statistically have a 10% chance of victory.
As you´ve played near enough to 100 games, meaning a 1% win-to-loss ratio, and _Stockfish_ has a rating (you said) of 3000, that means that your rating is about 2200.
Seems low, and I think the discrepancy is the crucial competitive attribute that computers do not get distracted or fatigued; however, because you are handicapping _Stockfish_ each time, the gap in ELO should be even greater.
me still cant beat stockfish when he is down a queen and a rook:
instead of rook+knight: take away all their pawns :D
Isn't stockfish 15 the latest version?
You should play stockfish right up until the moment where you think the game is hopelessly irretrievable, and then switch sides.
Just to see if stockfish can get itself out of the mess it created.
This is how I feel playing the Kasparov chess mate bot on airplanes lol
"I don't like this on my queen..."
> Proceeds to literally lose queen because of that
7:29 why does queen to D8 not checkmate black????
Qe7 or bf8
Nakmeson gambit computers have a hard time evaluating this opening
Try the reverse approach.
Playing Stockwish until you win, but you add a point of material to your starting position when you lose.
What a brave man (my condolences in advance)
Yeah, that made me sad. 10 min games would be more interesting. You can probably win at +3 or even +2.
18:50 it's not a draw? if he just moves the left d7 rook to d8 it's mate right?
Level 8 is not max Stockfish; it's made to make mistakes. Plus, no browser based Stockfish will ever be good. For best results, you should use profile built Stockfish on fancy CPU with AVX 512 support in a minimalistic browser. If you don't have the hardware, borrow it from a friend (you probably do).
My guess is an even game is about rook odds, but as far as just winning perhaps a knight.
I’m guessing 11 points of material
that smile is so wholesome
Me who can beat Stockfish 1: Why is bro struggling
I think you could move with less "points of material" removed if you removed pawns only and not single pieces that are "worth more".
Have always wondered about this!
You want ideas against Stockfish?
Try playing Stockfish, but Stockfish has no pawns!
It's 8 points of material, instead of 9.
Are pawns truly the soul of chess?
I was able to win stockfish with knight and bishop against king so I guess taking away pieces from Stockfisch actually helps you win
i wonder why Stockfish keep trading his pieces like Queen despite having a huge material disadvantage
How well did you do, guys? I'm hopeless. I drew wtih queen, knight and pawn ahead and won with a queen and two knights up. That's how much material I needed to beat Stockfish. My FIDE rating is currently 1892.
@@brianbuckman6908 I beat Stockfish in my first ever game, so I had to start giving it material. I lost when he was up 12 queens. (I'm 100 rated on Lichess)
@@quarterzillion 😂😂😂
You should team up with Martin against Stockfish. Or let Stockfish team up with Martin
I think 3 points if he pits back two pawns and removes a minor piece.
If game 3 is down 3 pawns he doesn't have a chance.
great vid!!
I think you can win up a rook or 2 pieces
computer REALLY likes the french
I thought the pawn removal was a wonderful tactic, but I would've removed the f pawn, since that would significantly weaken the queen side.
cant wait for a part two!
lol
10:04 im not a im, nm, gm, fm or anything else i literally have 500 elo but couldnt you go to Re1 with any rook to protect both rooks? or is it pinned or sum
you had a backrank mate on 7:34?
nice thumbnail
he can do it easilly this guys insane at chess
This is perfect timing because I've been trying to convert elo advantage to material
Perhaps try the same format but remove only pawns. since removing pawns gives also the advantage of open lines for the
fish
I did it without a queen for a stockfish, was pretty easy, just trading down and down. The hardest part was not blundering anything in a stupid way :)
update: obviously not in a 1 minute game
My geuss was 10 but i'd brobably wouldn't be able to win even if stockfish just had a king.
Great video
Every time you lose against Stockfish you change a Bishop or a Rook to a Queen and if you still can't win, change your Knights to Amazons.
It's interesting. I'm gonna try it.
Iirc Hikaru could do it with 2 points, but one hour game and he lost most and only won a few (also he managed to draw a few against Komodo with just 1 point advamtage which was impressive), so I assume Nelson can do it with 4 or 5 and if more than 5, then Stockfish 8 is probably harder to beat on 1 minute vs on 1 hour.
Dude I'm beating Komodo max on com without odds every second or third game if I make him play sth just very, very slightly off like Caro or Scandi ;p Hikaru only drawing Komodo with pawn odds in multiple games is actually pathethic unless it was bullet :D