I agree. It reminds me of the issue people have with kids media. Just because it's made for kids doesn't mean the media must be simplistic, boring, or low quality. Romantasy can still be engaging and well-made without sacrificing creativity or quality outside of the romance portions. It just means that some effort and thought should be put into the work.
True, my issue with the romance genre in general is that there’s so much sludge that ruins the genre for me. I plan on making a video about romance as a whole in the future. Thanks for commenting!🖤
I think The Princess Bribe can be an example of a better Romanctasy. It balances the romance well with fanatic elements, adventure, and humor. Maybe not, but that is my guess.
The thing that annoys me the most about fourth wing is how it just openly steals from Anne McCaffrey, whilst completely ignoring what made her novels good, and people act like its this whole new thing
I actually have heard that quite a bit and that’s really annoying to hear. Reading fourth wing, I thought it was not good at all and had no idea why people actually enjoyed it
I found this video because I’m reading 4th wing and needed to hear someone else vent. Its an ok fantasy book (not good, but almost good) with an absolute trash romance stretching out the page count and making the book objectively worse.
Robin Hobb did a really good job about organically developing romance in The Liveship Traders. Not too much to take over. Just enough spice. And just insignificant enough with a slow enough burn to really feel cathartic when it finally happens.
I’ve heard a lot of good things about hobb. I thought starting her series next year, but I did a poll on my channel to see what I should read next year. Thanks for the comment!
"Just smut in a castle" - LOL. The market dominance of 'romantasy' might make publishers less willing to publish more traditional fantasy, but given how much mediocre fantasy gets into print, I don't think it's going to 'hurt' the genre overall, any more than new wave or cyberpunk hurt SF. New subgenres generally expand the genre, not shrink it. My biggest problem with romantasy is how formulaic and stereotyped the characters and relationships are - they seem to all be stuck in the same tropes and cliches.
As a woman who mostly reads traditional fantasy and a big hater of most romantasy, maybe I can give a different perspective on this. I still think it has an important role to play in the fantasy literature space. Tradtionally fantasy used to be a genre where women felt unwelcomed and/or really were. There are a lot of big name classic fantasy series that have really bad characterisation of women and their largely male based fandoms were harsh to female fans, just look at how the LOTR and WoF fandom treats female fans. So it used to be, (and sometimes still is) very hard to find women in these stories that other women can relate to. Romantasy is kind of meant to be the female wishfulfillment fantasy equivalent of the same thing men get in tradfantasy I think. Sexuality in women tends to get villified a lot in our society and romantasy kinda allows women who read it to explore their sexuality in a non-judgemental and safe kind of way. As much as porn is frowned upon people dont judge men for watching it but a woman reading a smutty novel (which is nowhere as bad as watch porn) is very scandalous and frowned upon. IMO a lot of romantasy popular on tiktok and youtube tends to be simplistic and its not my cup of tea but I understand women who enjoy it because at its core it is wish fulfillment with a fantasy element. Its a romantic story with the backdrop of magic. Its like fantasy fanfic if that makes sense? I also blame tiktok for the type of simplistic stories that are getting published today because tiktok made them popular and publishers would rather have a best seller than a well written story. There is a lot of anti-intellectualism going on on tiktok right now and yes a lot of the books these people read are romantasy but I feel that is a people issue and not a genre issue. Dumb people want to read dumb books. There is a lot of good romantasy out there with good characterisation and world building its just not very popular because a lot of readers on tiktok want stories that dont make them think too much. Fourth Wing, ACOTAR, FBAA, etc are bad cuz they're badly written not because its romantasy. Im a big hater of romantasy books made popular by tiktok and one of my guilty pleasures is watching people roast them on youtube. But I will still defend romantasy in that the smut is not the problem as much as much society judging women for exploring their sexuality is. Hope this helps give a better understanding to why romantasy is so popular!
It definitely has. I agree and that’s why I think it’s a pro for romantasy to help introduce new readers into the fantasy genre because I think modern fantasy has done a much better job writing women. I do agree that TikTok has ruined the publishing industry though. It annoys me a lot. I have plenty of books I plan on talking about that became popular on TikTok. Thanks for the comment!
I honestly wouldn’t call ACOTAR bad. Its decently well written and the first few books are solid fantasy. Its appeals to a female fantasy, and puts that before the worldbuilding, but not in a way that it damaged the story to any significant degree. Sure, its got its weird quirks (I want to call it campy bit thats not the right word) but its a solid fantasy story. I’ve started thinking of romantasy as the female equivalent to the 80s action movie. Its not super realistic, the main character is over the top, but as long as you understand that its not supposed to be realistic, and don’t take it too seriously, it can be a fun ride. Some are good, some are bad, but the goal is fun rather than literary mastery.
I think it’s unfair to judge an entire subgenre based on reading one book. No matter how popular it is. No matter how much booktok is talking spice. There are plenty of romantasy books that have better world building and better relationship building. I also think that assuming that people who read romantasy will then go on to read “real” fantasy is slightly optimistic. Sure, some will. But a lot of readers are here for the romance, and a lot for the smut. Writing romance in a fantasy world allows you to play with parameters of the relationship that couldn’t be done in contemporary romance. I also take exception to this idea that good writing and good world building are more important than representation. It’s easy when you are a person who is represented in a lot of books on the shelves to be able to be picky. But a reader who is less represented may just be happy to read a book with a character that they can relate to, a book where they feel seen. Why did I like Fourth Wing? Because there is a female main character who has a best friend relationship on page and there is disability rep. Would I like to read similar books that have better world building? Sure, please give me your recs (if you can find any).
I wanted to speak on the matter for a while and after I read fourth wing, I decided to do some research on other romantasy books and everything I found, it was the same formula, which made me sad to hear. I love branching out and dipping my toes in everything. I think readers who like a genre would like to see how other ones might be written as well. That’s why I dipped my toes into romantasy and will probably read more of it to really feel it out. I also think modern fantasy has grown a lot over the last ten years, it focuses a lot on mental health, strong female characters and just relationships in general. Not all of them are great, but it’s nice to see how “fresh” fantasy have come forward and I think romantasy has done a great job at pushing the boundaries of things fantasy didn’t do before. Besides the smut stuff, I’m not a fan of it. I’m honestly happy to hear that you loved fourth wing, I am. All I want is for people to read at the end of the day and I think it’s great we can share our experiences about books. Some books I can recommend is anything Brandon Sanderson writes, bloodsworn saga and symphony of ages. I’m unsure if you’re into manga, but I can recommend some of those too.
@@zakskiver romance, like horror, is very formulaic. Most stories will have the same plot. 1. Meet cute 2. Forced to work together 3. Start to like each other 4. Relationship obstacle 5. Perceived betrayal 6. End up together. Its slightly different for series, but a stand alone romance genre book is going to differ from a hallmark movie only in levels of sexual content and camp. I think romantasy gives the author the freedom to explore other plot points and intertwine them into the above structure. But the romance formula is not going to change drastically. The formula is why the readers keep coming back. Its like comfort food. So to find better romantasy you aren’t so much looking for something that does not fit the formula, but better handling of the various plot threads, better characters and etc. Romance novels are the female book version of harem anime. They don’t have to be good, they just need to do what the audience wants. Some people only pay attention to the good ones, but the masses want low common denominators. The fantasy aspects can also be used to get around the problematic aspects of the female fantasies involved. A lot of these books are about being ravaged by a hot man and having some supernatural reason that excuses his actions or takes the responsibility away from the characters can be really useful in distancing the characters from inconvenient truths about consent. Meaning, the author does not want the male lead to be an outright rapist, but the female lead wants to have unconsensual sex with him, be mad at him for it and then forgive him. This is a very popular dynamic. That scene in 4th wing where the male lead stops the female lead from having sex while the dragons are boning is fairly progressive in that it portrays responsible consent, but fairly typical in that its a plot contrivance to take the responsibility of consent away from the female lead. Thats because the fantasy is about degrees of control, or lack of control. (You may notice that a lot of female leads are really controlling or neurotic and this releasing of control is an aspect of their fantasy. Its not always sexual, one of the things women admire about men is their ability to let things go. Source was a survey mentioned in another RUclips video so I don’t have the data on me.)
I think one thing that people miss about Lord of The Rings is that its built more on ancient literary styles than current styles of its age. Tolkien was a linguist and a scholar and reading LotR you can absolutely see that his inspiration was historical. Beowulf and the song of Roland rather than contemporary fiction. At least, from my limited knowledge of it. I could be wrong, but LotR feels more like he slightly modernized the style used in Beowolf. Thats were the long list of family names and excessive worldbuilding came in. His setting was actually designed more as internal lore for the languages he was making up as a hobby, and only became books because his kids needed bed time stories and his friends said he should refine and publish the one(s) they heard.
Only romantasy I loved was Wraith Kings series by Grace Draven. I hate romantasy with a passion, as a fan of epic fantasy or grimdark fantasy but I admit that I really enjoyed all three Wraith Kings books. It had the most non-toxic relationship i ever seen, where two matured people truly respect each other and has excellent communication skills. Even in "spicy" scenes, there is no questionable stuff but intimate and comfortably romantic. Unlike other romantasy books. There was also light-hearted humor, interesting worldbuilding through a couple's exploration of each other's completely different culture and politics through forced marriage's lens. It was a good reading experience. Unfortunately, it's also super underrated in the romantasy fandom because they seem to gravitate towards simplistic plotlines. I've seen other 2 Wraith Kings books got complains from romantasy fandom for "not having enough romance and spiciness" which is odd. Even though, it lacked conventional romance in 2nd/3rd book (they were heavily focused on plot, action and politics) but it was still romantic. Really beautiful. The way the couple communicate with each other, their trust, their sacrifices and their support. Some people said it was too slow and boring 😕 Seems like they prefer toxic romance with super spicy scenes and absolutely plain plots.
It’s a shame that people will complain about not having enough “spice” in the book. Like that’s not the main focus of the books at all and it’s driven to that point and everything else is a second thought. It’s a shame. I will have to check out wraith kings in the new year. Thanks for commenting!🖤
2 weeks late to the party but my algo just introduced us. Subscribed to hear more. I quit wheel of time after Rand x Min and Lord of Chaos. The after encounter was cringe.
It's funny because technically, I am supposed to be the target audience for romantasy, but so far all the books I've read are horrible and huge disappointments. The worldbuilding, plot and characters are all sacrificed for the sake of a romance, but even that romance who is the main selling point of the book fails to deliver because it mainly relies on tropes and smut to make it work. Even worst, the male love interest is often a douchebag whose horrible actions are forgiven because he is hot. Huh. If I ever come across a romantasy where the characters actually have depth, it's not an insta love, the writing is not cringy, and there are some interesting plot points + good worldbuilding, I would happily read it.
How do people feel about fire emblem type jrpg stuff? With hard violence? Curious. I do wonder about romantasy as well. And I do enjoy seeing high reading interest
I never heard of fire emblem ever lol. I’m 50/50 with harsh violence in books. I think grim dark is a lot like romantasy in a way where they sorta push the limits just because they can lol.
@zakskiver sorry. Tactic based strat jrpg series. Tbh I write but really don't read fantasy and have been curious if I focus too much on the grind of war etc. So I've been trying to understand what my genre spot is you know.
of course romantasy isn’t going to ruin fantasy. It’s a completely different genre. U read it for the romance not the plot. U read fantasy for the plot not the romance. Makes sense
I just read 4th wing and am reading book 4 now. Its frustrating because it is so close to being good. Its basically a 3 star fantasy mashed with a 2.5 star romance. It could easily be 3.5 stars if they removed a lot of the annoying romance themed whinging. With a little refinement it could have been good. First off, the trope of the fake bad boy. The dangerous man who is absolutely no threat to the female lead but is designed to feel like he is kind of dangerous to hit that fantasy. ACOTAR had this and made it work ok because that author actual made the dangerous male potentially dangerous to the female lead at times. 4th wings dangerous male was just a puppy. He clearly had motive, opportunity, right and even a need to kill the female lead and just did not, for no apparent reason very early on. But the book tries to pretend that he could be dangerous… and failed at it. There were other obvious plot holes that felt similar to that. Not quite impossible but unrealistic for certain characters. That main issue was that the main character was emotionally immature and the pining was un-bearable. The female lead was so obnoxiously horny that even other book characters were annoyed and were telling her to just get laid already. That actually happened. She would just whine for pages on end, wasting my time with a problem she literally only needed to provide consent for the male lead to fix. (The problem being her constant horniness and pining). I guess some women like it because it is relatable but the only thing holding the character back romantically was herself, and it was painful to watch. It honestly felt like red pill propaganda about how stupid women are. On tip of that, the smut scenes were not terrible, and there were some interesting ideas and even dialogue around them but the actual smut writing was amatuerish and kind of bland and repetitive. And to top it all off, the author could not seem to decide whether the dragons were people or not. They would be treated like dangerous animals, just another obstacle to overcome for some scenes, and then have witty banter with their riders in other scenes. Made them feel very underdeveloped, and any dragon not in the main cast felt a bit less than sapient at times. At least it was set in a college instead of a highschool and the characters were 20+.
I will say that I understand what the appeal is. The relationship between the characters is important to the larger plot. Thats what a lot of fantasy series are missing- meaningful romance and sometimes the focus on character relationship dynamics. Urban fantasy has this dynamic and thats why the back of the books often read the same as a romance novel. The draw of something like this would be that the characters have to work through difficult relationship drama while also working through danger. This intertwines the stakes. Someone could die if they don’t figure out how to work together, etc. Turns petty characters drama moments into live and death stakes, which if done right is usually just called “good character writing”. The first book doesn’t even have that much sex. The lead is just horny all the time and edging herself. Oh, maybe thats the fetish the people that love it don’t realize they have.
I personally found Fourth Wing to be okay. It's fun with the vibes, if you don't think too hard. 😂 But in a nutshell I could not stop comparing it to the dragon riders of pern. This series is hella old, but it has extremely sassy dragons, at least one good female character at the start and the pacing is comparable to getting whiplash with what is happening in just a couple hundred pages. Have you read them?
I am the target audience for this genre and I very rarely enjoy any of it. The book market is being over saturated with it because smut sells. Tell me a story. A good story. Please. A good story doesn't need the descriptors used in romantasy to convey passion. And, for the love of all things sacred can we please stop making everyone mates and giving them the super exaggerated sense of smell? Iykyk. My metric is if it can be removed without effecting the story, then it's unnecessary. If you remove it and half of your story is gone, you're relying too much on the smut as a draw and you should start over. But that's just my opinion on a topic I'm very opinionated about.
I feel like the most popular romantasy books do a disservice to the entire subgenre. I found the Shepherd King duology highly enjoyable, even though it's very romance-centered (there's some spice, but, like, it's not super explicit). Holly Black's The Folk of the Air books I'd been very biased against turned out to have a colorful and interesting Faerie world. Meanwhile nothing I've heard about SJM's books enticed me to check them out. That being said, even good examples are nothing like Tolkien and I feel like this shouldn't be expected. Even if you take the romance out of the equation, it's just a very different type of fantasy.
Yeah, that’s the problem. The more popular ones sorta make the genre look bad, it’s the same way with lord of the rings for fantasy. Everyone thinks fantasy is just like lord of the rings, but it’s not lol. Thanks for the comment!
I haven’t tried reading any romantasy because I’m afraid of how bad it will be. Fantasy is by far my favorite genre, and I don’t want to read anything that diminishes the genre itself. Sorry I don’t wanna offend anybody if you really like romantasy.
All opinions are valid. I think the only thing it does is it makes the romance better, but I think modern fantasy has done such a great job at romance.
@@zakskiver in my opinion, creativity is the biggest problem plaguing the genre. I don't think I've stumbled across a book marketed as romantasy that does things differently quite yet.
Hello Friend. Don't see the link to the video you referenced at the start. I think I saw the thumbnail for it a few weeks ago, and now want to go back and listen to their take to compare. Have you had any luck finding that link? If so, could you put it somewhere?
Just to warn you, you would probably like the Throne of Glass more than the A Court of Thorns and Roses. ToG focus much more on the fantasy side of romantsy compared to ACOTAR which focuses more on the romance. Not to scare you, but just to let you know.
Yeah, that’s what my girlfriend has told me. I’m not allowed to read throne of glass though, she thinks I’ll be too mean about it and it’s her favorite series. So, currently will be reading acotar and eventually ToG if she lets me🤣.
They are totally different genres and why cant people enjoy smut in a fantasy setting if they want to? I read them both and enjoy them both for really different reasons. I also think as the genre grows, the fantasy side of the story will improve IF the audience demands it. A lot of the writing is romance based and the setting is secondary which reflects a romance readers preference. The romance in Wheel of Time is definitely awful. It was written by a fantay writer. The fantasy in Fourth Wing is garbage. The writer is a contemporary romance author. I do enjoy SJM. Throne of Glass is more fantasy, ACOTAR is more romance.
I think there’s nothing with smut on fantasy, but when it’s the main focus it strips away the fantasy and becomes porn. That’s the thing. I think you can write a good balance of both of them, plenty of indie writers who do romantasy does a good blend of both. Modern fantasy writers write very well romances in their books now. Back in the 90s the world building was much more important over anything else. Everyone keeps commenting SJM🤣. Its great.
@zakskiver I guess it just depends on what kind of smut you want to read. This same "spice level" spectrum exists in contemporary romance so it's not surprising to see it in romantasy. Some people do not need or want the world building. So the demand is being met for them too. Good romance plotlines within more traditional fantasy is still within the fantasy genre and separate from romantasy. Romance is a unique genre with particular tropes and has very clear formulas. Reader demand for fantasy settings and the freedom that allows for new directions to take romance tropes within the formula is what you're observing. If it's not for you, don't expect to enjoy reading it. Just like any other genre you don't prefer.
This romantasy & "spicy romance" slop really bothers me, and it's not me speaking as a man being annoyed by the amount of romance books being produced, it's their quality. Why isn't the stuff at the top of the heap well-written, actually mature romance instead of incredibly subpar YA-level storytelling that seems to just be a vehicle for romantic wish fulfilment (or often just smut) and nothing else? Start with a good idea for a book, then add all the sex and love triangles (assuming they're well written and not cringe-inducing) you'd like, not the other way around. It feels like the literary equivalent of mainstream p0rn, where the "story" is an afterthought and the acting is god awful because they all know what people are really there for lol.
I’ve been wanting to make a video about this. Ever since I read Colleen Hoover books, it bothers me so much that some of these books are written as romance, but it’s about emotional abuse or p0rn and it’s wrong. I couldn’t imagine my daughter reading one of these books and being okay with it. Your points are all valid and I agree with you on every level. It’s a shame this is the garbage we get for romance.
Romantasy is just trash YA with smut. It's basically what women that read YA when they were younger are now reading now that they're older. It has all the same old YA tropes, the same reading level of prose, the same damn characters, just now there's smut. If you like YA tropes you'll probably love Romantasy. If you've moved on from YA you'll probably won't be a fan of the genre.
@ oh if you mean they’re really angsty then I agree 100%. Lan and Nynaeve just went all in with the arguing to loving. I wouldn’t say that it happens with any of the ta’veren though. Not even Perrin.
Not really. Constantly yelling at one another to show affection is really annoying when every character does it. He’s extremely repetitive when it comes to characters showing affection.
@@zakskiver just gonna have to agree to disagree. I dont think almost any of the characters do that. It doesn’t apply to any of Rand’s love interests or Mat’s. The only one that I see as arguable is Perrin and then it’s done in an exclusive way because it’s a direct reference to her (Saldaean) culture.
I can think of several examples off the top of my head: Rand and Aviendha, Siuan Sanche and Gareth Bryne, Elaine's mom and that one guard (sorry, forgot their names). And I remember that when others noticed the last two arguing a lot, someone said that they should get married since it was so obvious they were in love. Um... what? And if it isn't "argue>date", they're just sort of together. I remember seeing Elaine and Rand and being like "when did that happen and why?" None of the romance in the series was interesting to me and very, very repetitive, if not downright annoying. I really don't understand why most fans of the series find it (the romance) believable or even enjoyable. So I admit I was pretty happy to hear someone else say it lol
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I agree. It reminds me of the issue people have with kids media. Just because it's made for kids doesn't mean the media must be simplistic, boring, or low quality.
Romantasy can still be engaging and well-made without sacrificing creativity or quality outside of the romance portions. It just means that some effort and thought should be put into the work.
True, my issue with the romance genre in general is that there’s so much sludge that ruins the genre for me. I plan on making a video about romance as a whole in the future.
Thanks for commenting!🖤
I don't know if they're the problem but they aren't the solution.
Totally agree. I think there’s a lot of great elements for it, but it’s also not the greatest either.
I think The Princess Bribe can be an example of a better Romanctasy. It balances the romance well with fanatic elements, adventure, and humor. Maybe not, but that is my guess.
I totally forgot about princess bride!
The thing that annoys me the most about fourth wing is how it just openly steals from Anne McCaffrey, whilst completely ignoring what made her novels good, and people act like its this whole new thing
I actually have heard that quite a bit and that’s really annoying to hear. Reading fourth wing, I thought it was not good at all and had no idea why people actually enjoyed it
@zakskiver do you mean McCaffrey not being good?
No, I’m talking about fourth wing not being good. I never read McCaffrey yet.
I found this video because I’m reading 4th wing and needed to hear someone else vent. Its an ok fantasy book (not good, but almost good) with an absolute trash romance stretching out the page count and making the book objectively worse.
Robin Hobb did a really good job about organically developing romance in The Liveship Traders. Not too much to take over. Just enough spice. And just insignificant enough with a slow enough burn to really feel cathartic when it finally happens.
I’ve heard a lot of good things about hobb. I thought starting her series next year, but I did a poll on my channel to see what I should read next year. Thanks for the comment!
There’s romance in Liveship books?
@09cutie0pie there's a couple of relationships that are very well done.
"Just smut in a castle" - LOL. The market dominance of 'romantasy' might make publishers less willing to publish more traditional fantasy, but given how much mediocre fantasy gets into print, I don't think it's going to 'hurt' the genre overall, any more than new wave or cyberpunk hurt SF. New subgenres generally expand the genre, not shrink it. My biggest problem with romantasy is how formulaic and stereotyped the characters and relationships are - they seem to all be stuck in the same tropes and cliches.
Totally agree. I think it helps fantasy as a whole, but it doesn’t do too much once you get a little deeper with romantasy.
As a woman who mostly reads traditional fantasy and a big hater of most romantasy, maybe I can give a different perspective on this. I still think it has an important role to play in the fantasy literature space. Tradtionally fantasy used to be a genre where women felt unwelcomed and/or really were. There are a lot of big name classic fantasy series that have really bad characterisation of women and their largely male based fandoms were harsh to female fans, just look at how the LOTR and WoF fandom treats female fans. So it used to be, (and sometimes still is) very hard to find women in these stories that other women can relate to. Romantasy is kind of meant to be the female wishfulfillment fantasy equivalent of the same thing men get in tradfantasy I think. Sexuality in women tends to get villified a lot in our society and romantasy kinda allows women who read it to explore their sexuality in a non-judgemental and safe kind of way. As much as porn is frowned upon people dont judge men for watching it but a woman reading a smutty novel (which is nowhere as bad as watch porn) is very scandalous and frowned upon. IMO a lot of romantasy popular on tiktok and youtube tends to be simplistic and its not my cup of tea but I understand women who enjoy it because at its core it is wish fulfillment with a fantasy element. Its a romantic story with the backdrop of magic. Its like fantasy fanfic if that makes sense? I also blame tiktok for the type of simplistic stories that are getting published today because tiktok made them popular and publishers would rather have a best seller than a well written story. There is a lot of anti-intellectualism going on on tiktok right now and yes a lot of the books these people read are romantasy but I feel that is a people issue and not a genre issue. Dumb people want to read dumb books. There is a lot of good romantasy out there with good characterisation and world building its just not very popular because a lot of readers on tiktok want stories that dont make them think too much. Fourth Wing, ACOTAR, FBAA, etc are bad cuz they're badly written not because its romantasy. Im a big hater of romantasy books made popular by tiktok and one of my guilty pleasures is watching people roast them on youtube. But I will still defend romantasy in that the smut is not the problem as much as much society judging women for exploring their sexuality is. Hope this helps give a better understanding to why romantasy is so popular!
It definitely has. I agree and that’s why I think it’s a pro for romantasy to help introduce new readers into the fantasy genre because I think modern fantasy has done a much better job writing women. I do agree that TikTok has ruined the publishing industry though. It annoys me a lot. I have plenty of books I plan on talking about that became popular on TikTok. Thanks for the comment!
I honestly wouldn’t call ACOTAR bad. Its decently well written and the first few books are solid fantasy. Its appeals to a female fantasy, and puts that before the worldbuilding, but not in a way that it damaged the story to any significant degree. Sure, its got its weird quirks (I want to call it campy bit thats not the right word) but its a solid fantasy story.
I’ve started thinking of romantasy as the female equivalent to the 80s action movie. Its not super realistic, the main character is over the top, but as long as you understand that its not supposed to be realistic, and don’t take it too seriously, it can be a fun ride. Some are good, some are bad, but the goal is fun rather than literary mastery.
I think it’s unfair to judge an entire subgenre based on reading one book. No matter how popular it is. No matter how much booktok is talking spice. There are plenty of romantasy books that have better world building and better relationship building.
I also think that assuming that people who read romantasy will then go on to read “real” fantasy is slightly optimistic. Sure, some will. But a lot of readers are here for the romance, and a lot for the smut. Writing romance in a fantasy world allows you to play with parameters of the relationship that couldn’t be done in contemporary romance.
I also take exception to this idea that good writing and good world building are more important than representation. It’s easy when you are a person who is represented in a lot of books on the shelves to be able to be picky. But a reader who is less represented may just be happy to read a book with a character that they can relate to, a book where they feel seen. Why did I like Fourth Wing? Because there is a female main character who has a best friend relationship on page and there is disability rep. Would I like to read similar books that have better world building? Sure, please give me your recs (if you can find any).
I wanted to speak on the matter for a while and after I read fourth wing, I decided to do some research on other romantasy books and everything I found, it was the same formula, which made me sad to hear. I love branching out and dipping my toes in everything.
I think readers who like a genre would like to see how other ones might be written as well. That’s why I dipped my toes into romantasy and will probably read more of it to really feel it out. I also think modern fantasy has grown a lot over the last ten years, it focuses a lot on mental health, strong female characters and just relationships in general. Not all of them are great, but it’s nice to see how “fresh” fantasy have come forward and I think romantasy has done a great job at pushing the boundaries of things fantasy didn’t do before. Besides the smut stuff, I’m not a fan of it.
I’m honestly happy to hear that you loved fourth wing, I am. All I want is for people to read at the end of the day and I think it’s great we can share our experiences about books.
Some books I can recommend is anything Brandon Sanderson writes, bloodsworn saga and symphony of ages. I’m unsure if you’re into manga, but I can recommend some of those too.
@@zakskiver romance, like horror, is very formulaic. Most stories will have the same plot.
1. Meet cute
2. Forced to work together
3. Start to like each other
4. Relationship obstacle
5. Perceived betrayal
6. End up together.
Its slightly different for series, but a stand alone romance genre book is going to differ from a hallmark movie only in levels of sexual content and camp.
I think romantasy gives the author the freedom to explore other plot points and intertwine them into the above structure. But the romance formula is not going to change drastically.
The formula is why the readers keep coming back. Its like comfort food.
So to find better romantasy you aren’t so much looking for something that does not fit the formula, but better handling of the various plot threads, better characters and etc.
Romance novels are the female book version of harem anime. They don’t have to be good, they just need to do what the audience wants. Some people only pay attention to the good ones, but the masses want low common denominators.
The fantasy aspects can also be used to get around the problematic aspects of the female fantasies involved.
A lot of these books are about being ravaged by a hot man and having some supernatural reason that excuses his actions or takes the responsibility away from the characters can be really useful in distancing the characters from inconvenient truths about consent.
Meaning, the author does not want the male lead to be an outright rapist, but the female lead wants to have unconsensual sex with him, be mad at him for it and then forgive him. This is a very popular dynamic. That scene in 4th wing where the male lead stops the female lead from having sex while the dragons are boning is fairly progressive in that it portrays responsible consent, but fairly typical in that its a plot contrivance to take the responsibility of consent away from the female lead.
Thats because the fantasy is about degrees of control, or lack of control. (You may notice that a lot of female leads are really controlling or neurotic and this releasing of control is an aspect of their fantasy. Its not always sexual, one of the things women admire about men is their ability to let things go. Source was a survey mentioned in another RUclips video so I don’t have the data on me.)
I think one thing that people miss about Lord of The Rings is that its built more on ancient literary styles than current styles of its age.
Tolkien was a linguist and a scholar and reading LotR you can absolutely see that his inspiration was historical. Beowulf and the song of Roland rather than contemporary fiction.
At least, from my limited knowledge of it. I could be wrong, but LotR feels more like he slightly modernized the style used in Beowolf. Thats were the long list of family names and excessive worldbuilding came in.
His setting was actually designed more as internal lore for the languages he was making up as a hobby, and only became books because his kids needed bed time stories and his friends said he should refine and publish the one(s) they heard.
You’re absolutely correct on what Tolkien was aiming for and I think that’s why everyone loves fantasy in this style.
Only romantasy I loved was Wraith Kings series by Grace Draven. I hate romantasy with a passion, as a fan of epic fantasy or grimdark fantasy but I admit that I really enjoyed all three Wraith Kings books. It had the most non-toxic relationship i ever seen, where two matured people truly respect each other and has excellent communication skills. Even in "spicy" scenes, there is no questionable stuff but intimate and comfortably romantic. Unlike other romantasy books. There was also light-hearted humor, interesting worldbuilding through a couple's exploration of each other's completely different culture and politics through forced marriage's lens. It was a good reading experience. Unfortunately, it's also super underrated in the romantasy fandom because they seem to gravitate towards simplistic plotlines. I've seen other 2 Wraith Kings books got complains from romantasy fandom for "not having enough romance and spiciness" which is odd. Even though, it lacked conventional romance in 2nd/3rd book (they were heavily focused on plot, action and politics) but it was still romantic. Really beautiful. The way the couple communicate with each other, their trust, their sacrifices and their support. Some people said it was too slow and boring 😕 Seems like they prefer toxic romance with super spicy scenes and absolutely plain plots.
It’s a shame that people will complain about not having enough “spice” in the book. Like that’s not the main focus of the books at all and it’s driven to that point and everything else is a second thought. It’s a shame.
I will have to check out wraith kings in the new year.
Thanks for commenting!🖤
2 weeks late to the party but my algo just introduced us.
Subscribed to hear more.
I quit wheel of time after Rand x Min and Lord of Chaos. The after encounter was cringe.
Welcome and thank you! January I have a big video for wheel of time with my full and HONEST thoughts on the series. Lol.
It's funny because technically, I am supposed to be the target audience for romantasy, but so far all the books I've read are horrible and huge disappointments. The worldbuilding, plot and characters are all sacrificed for the sake of a romance, but even that romance who is the main selling point of the book fails to deliver because it mainly relies on tropes and smut to make it work. Even worst, the male love interest is often a douchebag whose horrible actions are forgiven because he is hot. Huh.
If I ever come across a romantasy where the characters actually have depth, it's not an insta love, the writing is not cringy, and there are some interesting plot points + good worldbuilding, I would happily read it.
You are spot on. I’m currently reading acotar and the first book is pretty weak to me, but oh well. Lol
@@zakskiver oh, good luck with your reading. I dnf'ed the first book after 50%. Maybe you'll be stronger than me haha
lol, thanks! I do have some thoughts on the book and plan to upload my review of it later in January.
How do people feel about fire emblem type jrpg stuff? With hard violence? Curious. I do wonder about romantasy as well. And I do enjoy seeing high reading interest
I never heard of fire emblem ever lol. I’m 50/50 with harsh violence in books. I think grim dark is a lot like romantasy in a way where they sorta push the limits just because they can lol.
@zakskiver sorry. Tactic based strat jrpg series. Tbh I write but really don't read fantasy and have been curious if I focus too much on the grind of war etc. So I've been trying to understand what my genre spot is you know.
Yeah, i totally understand that. Just takes time to figure out what you want to write and read.
Holy hell the music at the end is three times as loud as the rest of the video.
I’m sorry, I thought I edited it to be the same volume
@@zakskiver The rest of the content was really good though. :)
Thank you! I’ll keep that noted in the future videos of mine🖤
of course romantasy isn’t going to ruin fantasy. It’s a completely different genre. U read it for the romance not the plot. U read fantasy for the plot not the romance. Makes sense
True, just seeing a lot of people thinking it’ll ruin fantasy and wanted to speak my opinion of it.
I just read 4th wing and am reading book 4 now. Its frustrating because it is so close to being good.
Its basically a 3 star fantasy mashed with a 2.5 star romance. It could easily be 3.5 stars if they removed a lot of the annoying romance themed whinging.
With a little refinement it could have been good.
First off, the trope of the fake bad boy. The dangerous man who is absolutely no threat to the female lead but is designed to feel like he is kind of dangerous to hit that fantasy. ACOTAR had this and made it work ok because that author actual made the dangerous male potentially dangerous to the female lead at times. 4th wings dangerous male was just a puppy. He clearly had motive, opportunity, right and even a need to kill the female lead and just did not, for no apparent reason very early on. But the book tries to pretend that he could be dangerous… and failed at it.
There were other obvious plot holes that felt similar to that. Not quite impossible but unrealistic for certain characters.
That main issue was that the main character was emotionally immature and the pining was un-bearable. The female lead was so obnoxiously horny that even other book characters were annoyed and were telling her to just get laid already. That actually happened.
She would just whine for pages on end, wasting my time with a problem she literally only needed to provide consent for the male lead to fix. (The problem being her constant horniness and pining).
I guess some women like it because it is relatable but the only thing holding the character back romantically was herself, and it was painful to watch. It honestly felt like red pill propaganda about how stupid women are.
On tip of that, the smut scenes were not terrible, and there were some interesting ideas and even dialogue around them but the actual smut writing was amatuerish and kind of bland and repetitive.
And to top it all off, the author could not seem to decide whether the dragons were people or not. They would be treated like dangerous animals, just another obstacle to overcome for some scenes, and then have witty banter with their riders in other scenes. Made them feel very underdeveloped, and any dragon not in the main cast felt a bit less than sapient at times.
At least it was set in a college instead of a highschool and the characters were 20+.
Facts with fourth wing lol
I will say that I understand what the appeal is.
The relationship between the characters is important to the larger plot. Thats what a lot of fantasy series are missing- meaningful romance and sometimes the focus on character relationship dynamics. Urban fantasy has this dynamic and thats why the back of the books often read the same as a romance novel.
The draw of something like this would be that the characters have to work through difficult relationship drama while also working through danger. This intertwines the stakes. Someone could die if they don’t figure out how to work together, etc.
Turns petty characters drama moments into live and death stakes, which if done right is usually just called “good character writing”.
The first book doesn’t even have that much sex. The lead is just horny all the time and edging herself. Oh, maybe thats the fetish the people that love it don’t realize they have.
I personally found Fourth Wing to be okay. It's fun with the vibes, if you don't think too hard. 😂
But in a nutshell I could not stop comparing it to the dragon riders of pern. This series is hella old, but it has extremely sassy dragons, at least one good female character at the start and the pacing is comparable to getting whiplash with what is happening in just a couple hundred pages.
Have you read them?
You’re not the first person who told me about this series, I’ll have to move it up on my tbr and read them for myself.
I am the target audience for this genre and I very rarely enjoy any of it. The book market is being over saturated with it because smut sells. Tell me a story. A good story. Please. A good story doesn't need the descriptors used in romantasy to convey passion. And, for the love of all things sacred can we please stop making everyone mates and giving them the super exaggerated sense of smell? Iykyk. My metric is if it can be removed without effecting the story, then it's unnecessary. If you remove it and half of your story is gone, you're relying too much on the smut as a draw and you should start over. But that's just my opinion on a topic I'm very opinionated about.
Totally agree. When I hear people talk about romantasy and all they talk about is the spice, I lose interest in it.
I feel like the most popular romantasy books do a disservice to the entire subgenre. I found the Shepherd King duology highly enjoyable, even though it's very romance-centered (there's some spice, but, like, it's not super explicit). Holly Black's The Folk of the Air books I'd been very biased against turned out to have a colorful and interesting Faerie world. Meanwhile nothing I've heard about SJM's books enticed me to check them out. That being said, even good examples are nothing like Tolkien and I feel like this shouldn't be expected. Even if you take the romance out of the equation, it's just a very different type of fantasy.
Yeah, that’s the problem. The more popular ones sorta make the genre look bad, it’s the same way with lord of the rings for fantasy. Everyone thinks fantasy is just like lord of the rings, but it’s not lol. Thanks for the comment!
Hot topic these days! Good video, dude.
Yeah, it really is. Thank you for the comment!❤️
I haven’t tried reading any romantasy because I’m afraid of how bad it will be. Fantasy is by far my favorite genre, and I don’t want to read anything that diminishes the genre itself. Sorry I don’t wanna offend anybody if you really like romantasy.
All opinions are valid. I think the only thing it does is it makes the romance better, but I think modern fantasy has done such a great job at romance.
Most of romantasy is just recycled sarah j maas slop
So I’ve been told. I’ll be reading some of her work starting in January, not sure how I feel about that yet. Lol
@@zakskiver in my opinion, creativity is the biggest problem plaguing the genre. I don't think I've stumbled across a book marketed as romantasy that does things differently quite yet.
Those are facts and when they market something as “romance” it’s not even romance. Just straight up p0rn.
@@zakskiver lol true
Hello Friend. Don't see the link to the video you referenced at the start. I think I saw the thumbnail for it a few weeks ago, and now want to go back and listen to their take to compare. Have you had any luck finding that link? If so, could you put it somewhere?
Thank you for letting me know. I thought it added it in the video itself, but I’ll add it to the description when I get home. Thank you!
Just wanting to give an update, it’s now in the description
Just to warn you, you would probably like the Throne of Glass more than the A Court of Thorns and Roses. ToG focus much more on the fantasy side of romantsy compared to ACOTAR which focuses more on the romance. Not to scare you, but just to let you know.
Yeah, that’s what my girlfriend has told me. I’m not allowed to read throne of glass though, she thinks I’ll be too mean about it and it’s her favorite series. So, currently will be reading acotar and eventually ToG if she lets me🤣.
This makes me think of Fourth Wing, I like the dragons and mage but when the “spice” happens I just skip the chapter. It was so pointless to the plot
Yeah, fourth wing is one of the reasons why I decided to make this video. It’s all about the spice and the rest of the plot is just bad.
They are totally different genres and why cant people enjoy smut in a fantasy setting if they want to? I read them both and enjoy them both for really different reasons.
I also think as the genre grows, the fantasy side of the story will improve IF the audience demands it. A lot of the writing is romance based and the setting is secondary which reflects a romance readers preference.
The romance in Wheel of Time is definitely awful. It was written by a fantay writer. The fantasy in Fourth Wing is garbage. The writer is a contemporary romance author.
I do enjoy SJM. Throne of Glass is more fantasy, ACOTAR is more romance.
I think there’s nothing with smut on fantasy, but when it’s the main focus it strips away the fantasy and becomes porn. That’s the thing.
I think you can write a good balance of both of them, plenty of indie writers who do romantasy does a good blend of both.
Modern fantasy writers write very well romances in their books now. Back in the 90s the world building was much more important over anything else.
Everyone keeps commenting SJM🤣. Its great.
@zakskiver I guess it just depends on what kind of smut you want to read. This same "spice level" spectrum exists in contemporary romance so it's not surprising to see it in romantasy. Some people do not need or want the world building. So the demand is being met for them too.
Good romance plotlines within more traditional fantasy is still within the fantasy genre and separate from romantasy. Romance is a unique genre with particular tropes and has very clear formulas. Reader demand for fantasy settings and the freedom that allows for new directions to take romance tropes within the formula is what you're observing.
If it's not for you, don't expect to enjoy reading it. Just like any other genre you don't prefer.
This romantasy & "spicy romance" slop really bothers me, and it's not me speaking as a man being annoyed by the amount of romance books being produced, it's their quality. Why isn't the stuff at the top of the heap well-written, actually mature romance instead of incredibly subpar YA-level storytelling that seems to just be a vehicle for romantic wish fulfilment (or often just smut) and nothing else?
Start with a good idea for a book, then add all the sex and love triangles (assuming they're well written and not cringe-inducing) you'd like, not the other way around. It feels like the literary equivalent of mainstream p0rn, where the "story" is an afterthought and the acting is god awful because they all know what people are really there for lol.
I’ve been wanting to make a video about this. Ever since I read Colleen Hoover books, it bothers me so much that some of these books are written as romance, but it’s about emotional abuse or p0rn and it’s wrong. I couldn’t imagine my daughter reading one of these books and being okay with it.
Your points are all valid and I agree with you on every level. It’s a shame this is the garbage we get for romance.
Romantasy is just trash YA with smut. It's basically what women that read YA when they were younger are now reading now that they're older. It has all the same old YA tropes, the same reading level of prose, the same damn characters, just now there's smut. If you like YA tropes you'll probably love Romantasy. If you've moved on from YA you'll probably won't be a fan of the genre.
Facts
I disagree with the WoT romantic criticisms tbh. The only one that fits the “argue then date” is Lan and Nynaeve.
I’m pretty almost every character who ends up together will be cut throat and the next chapter they will be together lol.
@ oh if you mean they’re really angsty then I agree 100%. Lan and Nynaeve just went all in with the arguing to loving. I wouldn’t say that it happens with any of the ta’veren though. Not even Perrin.
Not really. Constantly yelling at one another to show affection is really annoying when every character does it. He’s extremely repetitive when it comes to characters showing affection.
@@zakskiver just gonna have to agree to disagree. I dont think almost any of the characters do that. It doesn’t apply to any of Rand’s love interests or Mat’s. The only one that I see as arguable is Perrin and then it’s done in an exclusive way because it’s a direct reference to her (Saldaean) culture.
I can think of several examples off the top of my head: Rand and Aviendha, Siuan Sanche and Gareth Bryne, Elaine's mom and that one guard (sorry, forgot their names). And I remember that when others noticed the last two arguing a lot, someone said that they should get married since it was so obvious they were in love. Um... what?
And if it isn't "argue>date", they're just sort of together. I remember seeing Elaine and Rand and being like "when did that happen and why?" None of the romance in the series was interesting to me and very, very repetitive, if not downright annoying.
I really don't understand why most fans of the series find it (the romance) believable or even enjoyable. So I admit I was pretty happy to hear someone else say it lol