Analyzing the ISV Landing Sequence from Avatar 2
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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Spacedock delves into the ISV Landing Sequence from #Avatar 2
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If World of Warships is sponsoring you guys they must be working on some new Soviet tech tree.
No gushing over the radiators?
2 minutes of ads on 5 min videos are starting to be a bit much. Everyone gets that you need sponsors, but this is becoming umwatchable rapidly.
it is possible to skip past an ad...@@r.gletscher5162
@@r.gletscher5162 my beef is the "five classes" thing. There's either only three, Destroyers, Cruisers and BattleShips. Or two: Aircraft Carriers and Submarines.
I can imagine the meeting where the RDA decided to land ISV's
"Could we save money by landing an ISV so we don't have to use Valkyries?"
"It would annihilate the landing zone."
"That would save us even _more_ money!"
Another large reason is simply: we can't make a base slowly like last time because the Na'vi and Pandora would destroy it too quickly.
So creating a huge burned/radioactive wasteland to keep out the pandoran life is another bonus
@@viken3368 you'll be getting a bonus in your RDA monthly salary, keep the good ideas coming! 😂😂
Seriously, was there _any_ downside to this plan from a management perspective?
Make sense if you think about it
@@viken3368Engineer: "But that would make the area inhospitable for us as well!"
@@juimymary9951 dammit, who invited engineers to our corporate meeting? 😂
It's probably a good point, which some other comments have addressed with suggestions of burning an excessively hydrogen rich fuel mix during landing (I'm not an engineer, so I'm not sure that this would work, but it sounds great)
Leave those minor technical details to the boffins downstairs
any sense of morality leaving my body the moment the humans have cool spaceships
It's OK, the series never intended to have an honest and thought-provoking discussion anyway.
Humanity first!
Humanity first!
No gushing over the radiators?
When I saw this in the theater, the first thing that came to my mind, was feelings of absolute disgust, because you know it just showed that no matter what the RDA does not care about the planet itself.
But at the same time, I also felt that it was a great way of doing visual storytelling. In the first movie, we saw the giant open pit mines that were being created and then of course, there is the famous or infamous, depending on your way of thinking event, where they literally blew down home tree. And then, of course, the small little vineyard, where one of those robotic bulldozers trampled over a fairly Sacred Location.
And it just goes to show that the forces of the RDA literally have no regard for the planet. It’s self. But then again, if I remember correctly, Mr. Cameron essentially has modeled them after basically corporate greed.
@@ultrajdCameron basically wants you to hate the RDA, he doesn’t want an honest discussion or complex narrative with deep moral conundrums about taking the resources of a healthy fledgling species and using them to keep your own old and suffering species alive.
And if he doesn’t want that then I‘ll have to just disagree with him and side with the RDA regardless.
It's possible that the first modules are deliberately flying too low in order to save on munitions shipments- they have to clear the forest anyway, and an engines thrust output is proportional to it's effectiveness as a weapon. So drop the first one in hot, then crane down the second as they pull back up into orbit.
i thought they were clearing the forest on purpose when i first saw it ngl
That makes sense. No reason an engine that powerful can't hold the craft in an extremely low orbit for a short period. The payload is craned down to the surface. The payload module itself is equipped with small thrusters to keep it stable as it descends.
There's an Isaac Asimov story about a peaceful civilization that gets invaded by militant types only to fairly quickly win by pointing their powerful space engine technology at the enemy and turning it on. The point of the story was that in space, the difference between "propulsion" and "weapon" is mostly in the labeling.
@@michaelramon2411not really quites. It's not JUST a difference in labeling, it's also a difference in optimization of the hardware. You optimize a weapon for accuracy and muzzle velocity, maybe rate of fire. You optimize a drive system exclusively for maximum recoil at minimum payload.
@@michaelramon2411 I think you mean Larry Niven.
I audibly gasped in the theater during this scene, and my dad gave me a funny look. I'm a nerd okay, and a semi-realistic space landing gets me excited.
Same
I've waited so long for this scene to get uploaded here on RUclips yo I can watch it a 100times more.
I started shouting the second they looked up and saw the engines so yeah I know how you feel lol
Seconded, this was just jaw dropping in its execution.
Don't lose your nerd card when you get older. Believe me, whatever it is it's not worth losing your nerd card over.
This takes _clearing the L Z_ to a whole 'nother level.
Creating the LZ lmao
Pilot 1 : where do we drop , everything is crawling
General XYZ: Can’t you just Orbital bombardment it or launch Rocks or something from orbit or send in Valkyrie’s on bombing runs
Admiral : ISV 1 to ISV 5 delay braking burn till stratosphere and manoeuver to hover at 20 km altitude for about a 10 mins and detach the Landing forces Modules slings on my mark
General : what do ya mea… Holy Fuc, Sht sht sht . My eyes Aaaghh
"Oh Yeah! Did I mention that the lead ISV for the invasion was called the Manifest Destiny?"
James Cameron thinks that subtlety is for cowards.
Just waiting now for the S.S. Trail of Tears, the Last Ghost Dance, and the Yes We Know We Are The Bad Guys to touch down for Avatar 3.
The story would have been better if they had made both sides sympathetic (human colonists desperate for a new home vs Na'vi natives trying to hold onto it for themselves. More depth vs cartoon villains.
@@randlebrowne2048 Not every film has to have grey morality.
Also, he made cartoon villains and people still genuinely argue that they were totally in the right.
@@somdudewillson Because they are. Humanity first, forever and always
@@somdudewillson humanity first my guy, if it aint from Shit Outa Luck III it's game
Since you mentioned that the engines have a hydrogen afterburner I think they just turned down the power and started dumping as much hydrogen as possible into the engines to keep enough thrust while making the exhaust juuust cool enough not to weld the landing modules to the ground. That would of course make the engines very inefficient but thats ok since each ISV only has to do one landing/takeoff before getting refueled.
And even if it is10x less efficient compared to normal, if we say the landing takes 1 day of continous thrust that would add 10 days of "normal" runtime. when it already has fuel for ~180 days it's not too much weight to reduce to reach the required fuel savings
Aha, not bad
I'd like to point out that a LOT of science fiction franchises have explicit rules about using space based propulsion in a planetary atmosphere. Some universes out right state that using space based propulsion in atmosphere is war crime. I think this counts.
O yeah, Im certain this is illegal but looking at circumstances I dont know
Navi arent people so war crimes dont apply to them and frankly getting charged is only a concern if you lose
@@AlphaKnight-hg2jq even if they arent, you cant just burn up a planets atmosphere, climate, and environment just to land on the surface really cool.
@@ashleysmith9755 Yeah well uh who's gonna stop us lol?
get rekt ayys
"It's not a war crime the first time"
I may be on the other end of the spectrum, but I was honestly horrified when that scene took place.
Granted that’s how it would work, but understanding the whole process, they essentially glassed hectares of land in the process and left it irradiated for some time after from those exhaust plumes.
They knew what they where doing, and turned a spindly cargo transport vessel in to a horrifyingly effective beachhead vessel.
Horror + Time + Shiny toys = Coolness, it's just how it works.
If the blue monkeys didn't want their planet glassed they should have given us the rock we wanted!!! /s
@@josem.unzueta1452The monkeys should blame Jake for being a Simp and not telling them why they are chopping down trees.
thing of it is, I have my doubts RDA considered the consequences to the crew in the less shielded segments. If Cameron is planning well, the radiation injuries to this first wave of outright colonials is going to cause loyalty issues within RDAs rank and file.
Adapt and overcome.
What bothered me about the ISV skycrane landing scene is that it would definitely melt the engines. Realistic high-ISP engine concepts like the antimatter engines of the ISV rely on a vacuum gap between the exhaust and the components of the engine, usually maintained with powerful magnetic fields holding the exhaust plasma in place. A plume that hot would turn every material known to man to plasma instantaneously, but radiation is slow enough at transferring heat between the plume and the engine components that a cooling loop can handle the heat that does make it across the gap. Maintaining that vacuum gap is pretty simple in space since space is conveniently a vacuum. Not so on a planet like Pandora, that gap will fill with air and that air will conduct heat from the plume to the engine and it will explode.
I've thought a lot about how this can be avoided. The obvious possibility is that the ISV engines work at a lower temperature in atmosphere, but that would also reduce the specific impulse to be optimistically a few times better than a chemical rocket and I doubt the ISVs have the fuel for that. But the propellent need not be internally stored, maybe these next-gen ISV engines have air intakes and they just use the antimatter to heat the air before shooting it out as exhaust. That could be very efficient. Though neither of these options would cause the destruction seen in the movie, the ground destruction would be more comparable to that caused by the first Starship launch at worst.
A far more on-brand solution would be if they found some quasi-magical material on Pandora that can withstand comically absurd temperatures without melting, and they built the ISV combustion chambers and nozzles out of that. And to obtain it they had to genocide some cute intelligent creature that lives in a volcano, or something.
Even during normal operation, the ISV will consume all of it, leaving behind the return antihydrogen in order to reduce its mass as much as possible. Hydrogen that can be procured locally will be collected by descending to Polyphemus with the Valkyrie Shuttle, so there is no problem even if the hydrogen in the tank is used up.
They do have such a « magical material », and that is unobtainium. It is said that it could solve the energy crisis on earth but since no specific explaination is given, we can reasonably think it has several « amazing » properties.
@@andreameertAlthough unobtanium is a room-temperature superconducting material, it loses its magnetism when exposed to high temperatures, so it is actively cooled with liquid helium. The gist of this story is to lower the plume temperature by increasing the mixture ratio of hydrogen reacting with antihydrogen in order to protect the ship from the heat transfer of the insane plume temperature during atmospheric descent. If that happens, the fuel efficiency will be as bad as that of a chemical rocket, so he is concerned about the amount of hydrogen remaining.
This is the equivalent of when Amos friend light up the epstein drive during atmospheric launch and the whole place got completely wipe by the sheer might of the drive plume
# Starship B7 S24 Start in this Year, with the Crater under the Startpad 😉
I've heard of scorched land tactics, but ain't that supposed to be done on retreat and not arrival?
Well, the point of those is to deny your enemy resources, and if the RDA isn't using the forests for resources and the Na'vi are, then I think it still makes sense. (You were probably joking though)
When you gotta set a _tone._ 😉
You can see something similsr for some Vietnam era US FOBs
@@nahuelleandroarroyo Daisy Cutters FTW. 😁
@@nahuelleandroarroyo I remember a history class talking about how a young George Washington messed up by making a hasty fort without cutting down enough of the surrounding forests, so clearing the area around a fortress/castle/base to provide better visibility/eliminate cover has definitely been standard protocol for centuries if not millenia.
Morality and realism aside the RDA’s machinery and equipment and architecture is some of the most badass I’ve seen in fiction
Yeah James Cameron is many things, but subtle isn't one of them.
Regarding the landing though: I've seen it mentioned that if the ISVs can adjust the ratio for the afterburners, which seems reasonable, then for those few moments in the actual atmosphere (and since they're going straight down and up they'll be in the atmosphere for the shortest possible time) they can push the thrust mass to as hydrogen-rich as it'll go and minimize both the radiation and the heat at the momentary cost of engine efficiency. Still more than enough to glass the landing zone.
Sully must regret not hiding a bomb on the shuttle that he allowed to leave at the end of the first movie.
Give it a timer to go off while the ISV is leaving the system or even approaching relativistic velocities to ensure a kill. Or just when it's first docked with the ISV to hopefully prevent a message getting back to Earth.
Without any warning the ship will be assumed lost and the next ship arriving will be off guard and land it's shuttle as usual, as long as the charade can be maintained by the mining site.
Nah, they‘d know something was off.
It takes days to weeks for the ISV to get from the edge of the solar system to Pandora.
They‘d be close enough for delayed radio communication or even delayed laser communication.
If they got 0 signs of life from RDA HQ on Pandora they‘d find that incredibly suspicious.
Well if you ask me the only logical premise for a sequal to the original movie was one where the Pandorans are desperatly reverse enginering Human technology and trying to negotiate control of the mining on Pandora and an export agreement with Humans in exhcange for yet more technology. You know the thing that any sensible civilization would do to try to preserve itself in the face of a rapacious and technologically advanced power and what Native Tribes actually did because they weren't ignorant Blue monekys that dance in trees and refuse to so much as touch the superior technology being weilded against them as they sit just wishing that the enemy will never come back after he's been given a mere bloody nose by throwing wave after wave of your best warriors at them in victory so bloody that it should be called Phyric. I don't know what Avatar insults more, native peoples or the audiances inteligence.
I can’t wait to see the RDA in Avatar 3. They are my favourite faction
Your favorites are the borderline fascist, colonizing imperialists? What are you, american?
Yea, the humans are just way cooler and are definitely the heroes in my imagination.
RDA all the way!
Wait until Sigourney Weaver's character uses one of the Crab Mechs
fuck the natives. RDA all the way!
Cameron may be rumored to be a difficult person to work with, and there was room for Jack on the door, but one thing his movies always nail is little details like this that look awesome.
Jack tried to get on, and the door nearly sank, so he decided not to try again. Mythbusters and Cameron tested it, and it would've worked if they had stuck her life vest underneath.
If, y'know, either of them had been capable of thinking of that while soaked in icewater and freezing to death. Much less executing the plan.
They nail the little details like phones to a wall
One thing I will always stand by was that both Jack and Rose could not have survived on the board.
While there was room on the board, if both of them had gotten on the board would have been partially submerged into water and killed both of them with Hypothermia.
@@EGRJ I will never understand the "Jack would have fit" crowd. *The film establishes that the door will not support both people* ! What other film history do we want to revise for no reason? How about "Rick could have gotten on the plane, because Laszlo was polyamorous", or "The Man with No Name was actually named Clarence"?
I love the detail that Cameron put in explaining why the humans can’t use fixed wing aircraft. Because a single bomber would be capable of forcing the Navi to surrender in less than a week.
Besides the obvious fact that the landing zone looked to 'solid' (should be melted like you said and not with still visible tree stumps), I found it incredibly ridiculous that amongst the mechs, there were guys on foot!
I really love it when media doesn't shy away from how absolutely bonkers the energy levels of space flight, and combat are, especially when they have established lore (or on screen presentation) describing said energy.
It was always such a let down when Star Trek ships blast away at each other with apocalyptic level weapons, only to fly away without a scratch. Sure shields can hand wave away damage, but I lost count of the number of times that torpedoes with antimatter warheads, more powerful than the most powerful nukes of today impacted unshielded ships and did not completely obliterate them. Star Wars too, a star destroyer's turbo lasers are shown instantly vaporizing asteroids of various sizes, but the beat up hunk of rust and dreams that is the Millennium Falcon eats at least half a dozen shots directly to the hull before being mildly inconvenienced and forced to try something else.
The Expanse does a pretty good job of depicting their weapons realistically, at least in terms of the damage that could be done to a space vehicle, if not the exact physics of high velocity impacts and nuclear detonations, but outside of that it is super rare for weapons to be displayed actually doing the damage that they are purportedly able to do, let alone drives systems being given any thought at all. I do love the chase scene between the Roci and the Azure Dragon where the Dragon crew tries to use their drive plume as a weapon though.
Makes the whole premise that Earth is uninhabitable a bit ridiculous.
When I first saw them decelerating I internally burst in joy, because it was the first time we’ve seen somewhat realistic depiction of near lightspeed travel. In order to go fast you need to accelerate a lot and then brake a lot - and you do the braking by reversing acceleration - something we don’t really see in most blockbuster sci-fis.
Then the landing part kinda felt kinda off, because as mentioned, the destruction of the planets surface would be incomprehensible.
4:40 if pandora is tidally locked (which is most likely is) then it is possible to construct a space elevator to a lagrange point rather than geostationairy orbit. this is also how we can make a space elevator on earth's moon
Somewhere in some when the God Emperor smiled on this day.
I can see how this makes sense, since the pandoran jungle is so thick with huge (way bigger) trees than here on Earth, it's only natural that they use the engine plume as an incineration device, since they would have to clear out the forests anyway, why not using the massive matter-antimatter engine? It saves other resources that can be used for base building and construction, also ammunition and weapons, i also like how they depicted the firestorm as an equivalent to a nuclear bomb.
The "Manifest Destiny"? Was it's sistership "White man's burden"?
"Kill de Boer"
Might as well have named one of them the Jebediah Springfield at this point.
Don't be ridiculous... the company is speciesist not racist.
Nah, its "Art of the Deal"
@@adambielen8996 You're absolutely right. It would have to be "Humanity's Burden" or something like that.
The "Visual Dictionary" on Way of Water has a large, detailed view of that landing module. It mentions "radiation shielding to protect the crew during travel as well as the engines radiation on entry"! You are not the first having thought of that potential problem :) And they even mention and show heat radiators to regulate temperature.
I would suggest that the ISVs arriving simultaneously can probably be explained by accounting for the likelyhood that RDA A) has more than one laser to propel them with, B) they could have used their antimatter engines to boost them along, and C) it’s highly likely that they weren’t launched from Earth. Probably they were launched from the Moon or Mars, enabling them to use gravity assists to accelerate onto the proper trajectory before the lasers (probably positioned in the outer solar system) had to be used.
Regarding the waves bit. I imagine the first landings are the impressive ISV drops, which also clear (by way of glassing, effectively) where Bridgehead will be, and the follow-on construction stuff is brought down more conventionally.
The scene looks nice, but the destruction is nowhere near of what it should be, i think book INVINCIBLE by Stanisław Lem encapsulates such orbital landing sequence of a gigantic ship perfectly, where he describes the complete obliteration of considerable portion of the land around the ship and complete glassing and turning it to magma. The book in general i think would be an amazing topic for one of your vids regarding space tech, there is an amazing visual novel for it too which creates a really nice setting appropriate designs for the lead ship and overall tech portrayed.
It seems hard to judge what destruction engines actually cause. I remember that the moon lander engineers had concerns like that as well, but eventually it was determined that it would not be problematic.
They are making that into a game. Invincible, that is. My favorite book, where everybody is profesional, responsible adult, like the crew of such a Behemot should be. It was such a fresh air, after usual Hollywood nonsense.
@@deejay554 they are making it into a game that doesn’t seem to have much in common with the book aside the setting, it won’t be a book adaptation and I’m not entirely convinced it will stand up to amazing scrutiny of Lem’s visions.
@@Volke_ invincible and Expanse books ruined sf for me :) cant stand space magic Hollywood stupidity anymore :)
@@deejay554 space magic still has its own charm, but Yeah, realistic sci-fi is so much better, when it is grounded, but properly grounded, not just pretending to be.
Everyone in the Cinema was cheering during this scene.
On them arriving at the same time, they were repelled once, so they want to bring in a larger force. So they just have the ones further ahead burn early on the trip, so they all arrive at almost the same time, ensuring that they have the number that they need
I completely missed that the things holding the cables up were the actual ISVs when watching the movie (twice), thought it was just some sub-craft. I guess it didn't enter my mind precisely because of the reasons mentioned in the video - the landings were brutal, but not quite brutal enough for what interstellar drives should do to the planet.
Maybe those ISV's were designed specifically for planetary entry.
Definitely the scene that got my ears to prick up the most. Seening the ships causing down towards the planet I straight sat up and yelled "are they landing!?"
I mean... couldnt they just slow down at different rates? One start their break burn at lets say 50% early, next craft 60% etc. And end up in a nice group? Would ofcourse mean the crew would not be at 1g but... its a thought
The crew would be in cryosleep.
So, doesn’t really matter too much.
@@AnonD38 no not the crew. The ISVs had, as i recall, 3 crew rotations that would stay awake during flight. They live in the habs with artificial gravity and would take care of maintenence and waking up the passenger once the tour is over.
@@Ph33NIXx Would they go in and out of cryo-sleep?
@@AnonD38 yeah i think its one shift awake at the time.. but one would be awake. Its been a while since i read the lorebook. I can go dig it up if you want?
@@Ph33NIXx I‘d imagine it works
like:
shift 1 - shift 2 - shift 3
work - sleep - sleep
sleep - work - sleep
sleep - sleep - work
I absolutely *adore* these ship designs, but i hate the people who are like "humans have cool ship designs, therefore I'm gonna root for the humans"
Like, you know you can find the ship designs cool while also realizingb what the humans are doing is wrong, right?
Cool technology is cool no matter what, but it *can* be used for malicious means
I know, right? Like, I thought the mech suits in the first movie were bad-ass, but that did not stop me from rooting against the characters piloting them.
I genuinely think the people who un-ironicly think that the RDA are supposed to be the good guys are either contrarians or are using this franchise to vent some "unsettling" beliefs...
Coolness of technology = morality. The na'vi could get something really cool and bio-mechanical going but they're too busy saving the whales
I saw these small tubes protruding from the Valkyrie boarding shafts. Those are probably the cockpits since there's no rotating axle and no corridor connecting the Valkyries to the landing module, just the winch. The shuttles were probably mainly cargo, with the pilots being waking crew since the cryosleep bunks are probably in the landing module as well. It also explains how the ship goes back to orbit after detaching the landing module.
This is the planet where they mine unobtainium, which floats mountains in the air. Any reason they couldn't refine enough of the stuff to make an anti-weight for a _short_ space elevator to a station in low Pandora orbit?
Stop asking logical questions!
James Cameron isn't the only one working on this movie, if 100 other experts working on the movie decided to make it this way, it's probably intended to be this way.
And that was only the initial landing, burning everything to assert dominance to establish a ground for base, surely they dont use ISVs after that to burn everything just to deliver some building materials, staff members, supplies.
@@revolverswitch It wasn't a critique, just an idea for a feature in the _next_ movie.
Say what you will about the movies and their plots, I absolutely love the worldbuilding and props from the rifles to the spaceships.
Reminds me of a meme I saw recently.
Devil: "you must consider collateral damage and plan accordingly"
Douglas MacArthur: "Sea of irradiated cobalt"
The stupidity of this scene is insane. The ship would have completly destroyed themselves trying to do this.
Can't wait for more videos around the tech of Avatar 2!
Yeah, plot armour was really strong in that movie.
Great video by the way. I thoroughly enjoyed it. 👍💪
Considering what happened last time, if RDA chooses to nuke first, it would not surprise me at all.
What little information, all theoretical since we don’t have one, is that the radiation being lost in mater anti mater reaction are Neutrinos and the rest are photos. Since the photos are being absorbed in the hydrogen after burners then the radiation these things are giving off is primarily leftover photos(which gamma will not last longer then 10^-12 seconds),hydrogen, and what ever atoms get kicked up from the exhaust plume.
So it’s probably not actually that radioactive, but as hot as fresh cooled lava.
My favourite cinema moment of all time. Shock and awe describes it perfectly.
I feel like thrust from craft that are landing/taking off is one of those things that Sci fi is particularly prone to ignore.
Other than direct anti-gravity technology I'm not really clear on how you ever have landing craft bouncing up and down to planets so easily.
Although I suppose mass effect gets a bit of a pass because if you can reduce something's mass then presumably you need only very small engines.
@@BigFormula93 *Isaac Arthur has entered the chat*
@@BigFormula93
They're underused because they're extremely vulnerable. Space elevator can't move out of the way of an orbital debree, or imagine its land part being hit by a hurricane?
@@BigFormula93
1. Maybe you could enlighten me then how, say, a space elevator will move out of the way of a hurricane? Or how it would be immune to it, if even ordinary tiny skyscrappers need to account for the wind pressure in the arrea?
2. They aren't used in fiction because it's easier to throw in magic technology that allows you to get up in your small sleek spaceship and dart for the stars from the landing pad in one continous cinematic shot. There's no mystery here.
3. yeah, and those other structures are either even less possible than a space elevator, or, like the Lofstrom's loop, aren't immune to extreme weather either.
I kinda Imagine that is the way they set up a new city on Pandora, That big cargo module probably contains everything needed to setup a new city and the powerful engines of the ships make sure that the area around it is clear. City gets build by robots in the landed modules and recoirces of pandora. Later supplies from earth to the city will be done by shuttles
please make some avatar 2 vehicle breakdowns
The humans almost went full 40K EXTERMINATUS - for a LANDING OP!!!
THE EMPEROR PROTECTS!!!! 😆
Is this the most prominent media example of space engines just getting raw deliberate weaponized use?
In the words of a payday character
We said we’d be back and now we’re back
I mean if you want to ensure the locals won't be messing with your landing troopers that is definitely one way to handle them. And giving them a larger area to work with.
As on the nose and unsubtle as those movies are (plz take our whale analogy very seriously, i swear they're like 200 times more sensible than humans are whatever that means!), the techs and visuals are just god tier. It's realistic enough to make you go "yeah i could see that" and whimsical enough that it looks like proper sci fi awesomeness.
I still love them
Nobody has given a believable enough reason as to why the humans can’t just clone the whale brains. The entire plot of the first movie is about how the humans can clone the bodies and brains of pandoran life, (brains that are larger and just as complicated as human ones)
@@AnthemAnimationshh don't put transfer logic into this franchise, it will only ruin the enjoyers' enjoyment of it
@@AnthemAnimation i know right? you reaaaaaly need to lock your brain into "i see boom me happy" before watching both of them. The humans are treated as bad guys, not because they are but because they are presented as such.
Jake sully is a traitor who got away with a multi milion dollar flesh suit (tax payer money) because he is horny for Pocahontas
@@AnthemAnimationthe explanation would be that it's more expensive, and therefore just easier to murder sentient, intelligent beings to get it instead. Which is exactly what a capitalist venture *would* do if there weren't pesky regulations stopping it here on Earth.
Also, apparently the movies aren't unsubtle enough when a huge chunk of people *still* think the genocide of a native population, including sentient people, is justifiable because "humans fucked up Earth so we have the right to fuck up everything else too and take what we want".
Like, Cameron shoves all this down your throat, the obvious analogies that what humanity does to Pandora is what it does to Earth today, and people *still* can't get it.
I love it when the good guys show up
The dozers coming out gets me every time
Who needs Agent Orange when you have anti-protons!
The RDA out there teaching the planetary ecosystem the Kinzi lesson from Ringworld XD
I love it when the heroes make an epic entrance.
James Cameron makes a movie about humanity being the good guys inadvertently again
No...
@@omegaprime9794 Yes ...
I wonder how much power the engines are capable of outputting. For a starship torch drive, it's gotta be at hundreds of terawatts at the very minimum.
The movie makers are smart enough to not give us any numbers so we can't calculate it and whine about its realism 😂
The wiki states that the ISV "Venture Star" is carrying 350 tons of cargo as well as 200 crew members in cryo-sleep. If we assume 150kg/crew member and their gear, that's an extra 30 tons for a total capacity of 380. The ships look to be about half cargo space by volume in the films, so doubling that to 760 tons should get us an estimate of the lower bound on the mass.
From there pandora has a gravity of 0.8G, so the engines must exert 5964.5 tons of thrust, or 2'982.25 tons of thrust each. If we take thrust to be in kg*m/s, we get a total output of 58'491'763.925W to maintain a hover, or 29'245'881.9625W per engine.
This is also how much power the engines would need to push the craft up to speed at 0.8G in a vacuum, and knowing that they are capable of 1.5G gives us a maximum output of 109'672'057.35937W for the combined engines. A little over 54MW per engine.
That mass seems really low, but a simple proportion for any other mass value you want will get you the new power output.
@@DigitalJedi That can't be right. The cargo and the rest of the ship is only dry mass. You haven't factored the propellant mass and exhaust velocity, which I'll just peg it at 200,000 km/s (70%c).
Okay, how about this? If we use 760 tons for baseline mass, accelerating that at 1.5 g would require 1,140,000 N. Now we have both thrust and exhaust velocity numbers. Multiply both numbers and divide it by two, we get..... 114 trillion watts, or 114 TW. There's two engines, so 57 TW each. I think that looks more appropriate.
"Manifest Destiny" is pretty on the nose, huh?
i always thought the plums sterilized the area for the building to instantly be started after the ship leaves the atmosphere. This also gives a deadzone perimeter much like you see in Bridgehead city. looks like was built directly where a landing was.
Arlecchino side eyes.
Furina: (Folds like an omelette)
I don't care what people say about the films. It's things like this that make them worth watching, it's just so pretty.
In Nivens books the fusion exhaust is used as a weapons along with gravity control .
Really Great cgi 😊
James Cameron: “We called the ship destroying the environment the ISV Manifest Destiny. I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards”
Now they are going to have a hard time explaining how a hoard of Navie win against the sky people when we know if they have an ISV in orbit then they have a WMD. Would you like your exo-planet well done, or extra crispy?
Honestly, I know the RDA are supposed to be villains, but I really don't see why they can't co-exist with the indigenous Na'vi, all plot aside.
With the avatar technology from the first film, they could have easily set up an ambassador program instead of an invasion. Damn greedy RDA.
(This comment turned out much longer than I intended lol)
If I remember correctly, isn't that exactly the plot of the first film? They had a research team and stuff, but the Na'vi, primitive as they are, were uncooperative, forcing the RDA to also have an armed defensive force. "Defensive" because clearly the RDA didn't even have any intent on breaking the status-quo, letting the Na'vi do their stuff (even while they harassed the mining pits) while they harvested the resources.
It was only after they discovered the huge deposit of unobtainium below the Na'vi Home Tree that things started to escalate - And again, the RDA first tried to sent Jack and the other researchers to reason with the Na'vi to persuade them to leave Home Tree. Instead, the Na'vi *capture them* and intend to kill them. Only a small squadron of helicopters and their dragon gunship are dispatched to intimidate the Na'vi after RDA gets no response from the diplomacy team, and even with their incendiary missiles below their wings, the RDA craft first try to smoke the Na'vi so they _leave._ Instead, the Na'vi fire back with their arrows, endangering the RDA craft. So they level Home Tree and everything around it - _As they could have done from the start,_ but they *didn't* because their goal never was to kill the natives, this again being shown when none of the helicopters actually break formation to hunt down the fleeing, disorganized Na'vi after they destroyed the Home Tree.
So RDA now has the perimeter around home tree, everything is well, right? *No,* the Na'vi gather around Eywa and try to muster for a revenge attack on Hell's Gate - Which is a command hub, not a military installation. They have no heavy weaponry at the base, no missile silos, no chemical or microwave weapons. They only have a few gun towers, general purpose suits and the airfield. They _know_ that they don't stand a chance against all of the Na'vi gathering around Eywa - So if they want to survive, they *have to launch a preemptive strike.* The RDA people are driven into a corner at this point - They had so many chances to destroy the local Na'vi, and they chose mercy. A mercy which was then answered by lust for revenge and aggression by the natives. And now they launch a last desperate attack at Eywa with improvised weapons - They intended to let bombs they put inside their shuttle to carry out the attack.
If they were a military base and had a ballistic missile, the story would have been over then and there - instead, they have to use their lightly armed and armored helicopters to fly inside the magnetic field of the floating islands, leaving the protection of their targeting radars and guided missiles, so they can escort the civilian shuttle which is supposed to drop a bomb on Eywa, to make clear how desperate they were - Neither the bomb, nor the shuttle, were made for military usage.
And the Na'vi once again ruthlessly exploit the vulnerability of the humans and annihilate their helicopters, their gunship and the shuttle, then force the remaining colonists to retreat from Hell's Gate. (Credit where credit is due, they atleast sent back the colonists instead of murdering them, but then again if they did that no one would still say that they're the good guys)
I feel like after Avatar 1 was released, the film makers realized that RDA wasn't evil enough, and paired with all their cool stuff, too many people actually rooted for them over the Na'vi, so for the second movie they decided to make them a lot more evil.
(I don't even know if anyone will read this lol, anyways, have a nice day :) )
@@scifidino5022 The main problem I have with this is the fact that they were going after **HOME TREE.** They were literally trying to ask the Na'vi to LEAVE THEIR HOMES so they could bulldoze them, then turn the tree into a new pit mine and stinking hole in the ground.
**OF COURSE that is unacceptable to the Na'Vi, hell it would be unacceptable to us in the real-world! And in many cases it was, to the people we did it to. Only they weren't called Na'Vi, they were called Native Americans.**
Put yourself in the Na'Vi position here - you've lived your entire lives in that one spot and then a bunch of high-tech IDIOTS with no brains for diplomacy and culture, along with a whole bunch of firepower instead comes down from on high and asks you to just up-and-move?!
**Of course the NaVi are going to be angered by that! It's the obvious result!**
Yes, they're primitive but that doesn't mean they don't have intelligence or culture. And that means humans could have found a way to get what they wanted respectfully.
Instead they resorted to war and barbarism because of course, diplomacy - aka idle chatter - doesn't make for a good movie according to modern James Cameron. You've got to have chaos, violence, destruction and pew! pew! pew!
*We could have gotten Space Titanic. Or Space Pocahontas, which was an absolutely beautiful tribute to both Native American culture and the beauty of nature. Instead, we got Custer's Last Stand in Space.*
@@TheOneTrueDragonKing Yeah, seriously, the fact that the RDA initially asked politely for the Na'vi to leave their homes and accept the destruction of sacred land so they could take their minerals doesn't mean the RDA had a right to ask the Na'vi to accept the destruction of their home.
@@RorikH Exactly. They didn't have to ask for that either. They could have found a way to get what they needed without destroying said homes and sacred land.
I mean, seriously: Has nobody in that time period heard of tunneling? What's the problem of going under the Home Tree instead of through it?
*There were a few dozen ways to get the unobtanium they needed without destroying the environment and upsetting the Na'vi.*
They would still have had to endure a few raids from time to time from extremists who still saw the relatively tiny holes they would be drilling as too much, but nothing on the scale of what happened in the movie.
*We could have had a happy ending for both parties. But no, people just had to die.*
I haven't seen the sequel yet. But I love the concept design. The special effects were of course very impressive but I could never get over the fact that Avatar is basically. Dances with Wolves in space.
The only unrealistic part I found was the idea that a 50,000 ton vehicle could hover with those engines all the while not cooking the Hab they dropped.
If there is one thing our history has taught us, it's that our species really excels at destroying things efficiently.
I suppose it might have been possible to retrofit the ships to be able to be able to bypass the main engines and activate the hydrogen afterburner on its own. That way they could have the exhaust plumes to clear an LZ without irradiating everything.
I got an idea for a video. How about breaking down the RDA vehicles from avatar the way of water
A space elevator in Avatar 3 would be INSANE, the fact it's 2 more years before the movie is released is soul crushing
Manifest Destiny….. subtle 😅
[Handwaving] They might be landing just using the fusion-hydrogen engines without the antimatter boost engines. They're just lowering the massive cargo pods, not escaping the gravity well.
1 Ships primed for interstellar travel would need a lot of reaction mass and an insignificant amount of matter-antimatter fuel measured in kilograms. I find that since the movies don't explain how the engines work and the "manuals" are a bit inconsistent, it's fair to speculate. Conservative estimates for fusion engines using He3+deuterium fuel and H2 or H2O as reaction mass would provide many times more power than the Valkyrie shuttle is described as capable of producing. Valkyrie shuttles should have delta V in low 10s and should be able to ferry deliver HUNDREDS of tons to Pandora, then load up HUNDREDS of tons and immediately carry it back to orbit all on one tank. Fusion engines are no joke. I think they were too conservative for the sake of hyperrealism?
If in Avatar universe humanity has figured out magnetic containment and funneling for antimatter, working fusion reactors and engines would be immensely powerful. I would theorize that ISVs engines are hybrid fusion/antimatter using H2 as reaction mass injecting small amounts of antimatter and they can probably vary how much of the engine output is matter-antimatter annihilation. Upon arrival of Pandora, ISVs probably burn off most of their reaction mass, so they are much lighter. The power required to levitate the mostly empty ISV in lower atmosphere is probably many orders of magnitude less than what is required to achieve 0.7 of lightspeed. Perhaps radiation levels are acceptable. They might also just be using H2 to land without the matter-antimatter annihilation process. Given the size of the engines on the ISV, fusion engines would still be plenty powerful to suspend the spacecraft and conveniently obliterate everything at the landing site. They can't make more antimatter on Pandora, but they can get more H2 on Polyphemus. It would make sense to use more reaction mass, although antimatter would still be an insignificant portion of total mass of the ship.
2 Multiple ISVs are shown landing at separate locations in multiple shots, it's hard to miss unless you're willingly ignoring it. Construction equipment is not delivered in separate modules, they're seen rolling out behind troops and APE suits. I think it's safe to assume ISVs only landed once to drop off the modules and then pulled back into orbit.
Somebody got taught the Kzinti Lesson.
Landing, AND THE BIGGEST FU to any enemy near. 10/10 style points.
“Kill ‘em with fire!”
-RDA
If you look in the background at 3:20. You can see other ISV touching down. So obviously each ISV had its own landing zone or several touched down. Dropped their cargo. And once the LZ was clear of friendlies. The next wave touched down in the same spots.
As far as the radiation being a concern. It's very possible by this time of humanity. Radiation isn't as big of a problem. In the anime Ghost In The Shell. It's spoken of radiation scrubbers. And I believe such technology is currently being developed in our reality.
So maybe after the first touch down. Some radiation scrubbing technology was deployed by the first wave. And subsequently after each landing. I mean in this film, we are a space faring species.
Now you may ask why not utilize that technology in the design of the ISV?
Maybe it's just more cost effective to design the ship as it is. As radiation isn't as much of a concern in space.
In a way the huge radiation and destruction is a plus for the RDA. the nature is connected to some sentience that's trying to kill them at all times which is why they have a huge zone around bridgehead where they use chemicals to kill all the plants and guns to kill all the animals. so to be able to sterilize an entire area really quickly is a huge bonus. Saves a lot of time, resources and manpower.
Good to see the good guys come to rescue
I was like OMG in the cinema specially with it in 4DX as my chair was literally shaking! 😄
When i saw this i was just wondering how could these ships have the structural integrity to complete such a maneuver. The mass on those ships must be insane and with gravity that would create a huge downward force at thr bottom of the ship, and these massive engines creating a huge upward force at the top of the ship.
Unobtanium, surely.
"LZ is hot!" takes on a completely different meaning here.
Ships could regroup on their way to Pandora by having the former ship burn heavier than the latter during the decelerating phase of the trip (Which last about 6 months). For example (And this is just an example: Ship 1 burns at 1.0 G, Ship 2 burns at 0.9 G, Ship 3 burns at 0.8 G...etc) Until they are very close to each other and then they can all burn at the same rate. Another alternative is to have ship 1 in the formation start decelerating early until it catches up to ship 2, then those 2 ships can decelerate together until they catch up to ship 3, and so on until all ships are together. Someone would have to sit down and figure out how this can work with the fuel supply available. Perhaps ship 1 in that case will need to carry extra fuel for the rest of the fleet. If this was my fleet, I would not mind having one of my ships in the fleet be a "replenishment oiler" anyway. It will be able to carry a lot of fuel back home which = more profits.
Imagine how many marshmallows one could toast on those bad boys
This only reinforces my belief that the Humans are the good guys in Avatar
Such an awesome scene... humans, destructive no matter where we go.
👎space elevator 👍orbital ring (with 1+ mini-elevator spokes hanging down). The ride is minutes not days, the ring could be visible from the surface, the spokes or the entire ring could be attacked or captured, and the aliens can ride their horses along the ring's outer shell just like JJ Abrams intended. 4:33
Yeah, I wanted to laugh at how ridiculous the idea of landing such a flimsy ship on a nearly full gravity planet was. The debris kicked up would have torn the ship to shreds. We saw that in April with the Starship launch because they didn’t have a proper platform to launch from. You can offset that some by mounting the rockets higher but it wouldn’t be enough to avoid the aforementioned damage in practice. Not in atmosphere.
If I could get the movie but it's just all cool tech and visuals without the snoozer of a story I'd be all in.
Superbly informative!
Big fan of those films and of space travel.
Cant wait for KSP2 interstellar part!
😛
4:11 i would agree with what you said here, but at 2:49 it shows the ISV's landing far away from each other to not have that problem
As much as I loved to tear that apart....it was visually spectacular.
Was it an ISV landing? For some reason, I thought the landers and sky-cranes/sling-loaders were smaller, but I didn't get a close look at them.
Just noticed that the other engine produces cold and the other produces the hotter side? I mean it shows in the movie that the other one produces a bit of a blue hue rather than a reddish one which makes like it is freezing. I am starting to think that the engines are complete opposites of each other but still produces the same thrust.
While I did have some reservations that these engines while in vacuum would work without issues. Having them dip into an atmosphere even at the 1/8th G of pandora it still would just get obliterated by the atomic bomb like thrust it constantly emits let alone just cook anyone in the landers unless these things had some impressive shielding and well didn’t sink in the radioactive lava.
I mean quite honestly this would be an absolutely devastating weapon if all you did is have several of these ships just slowly hovering and moving across the planet surface it would just destroy everything and literally nothing could stop them.