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Because she doesn't understand how the time tuner actually works. She thinks the past can be changed and so she thinks they were not there the first time
I think what Hermione doesnt get is how he thought he saw his dad. Logically to her it doesnt make sense that he would think he saw his father cause his father is dead and cant be there. She also doesnt know how a patronus works at this point either so she probably doesnt understand how he can cast the spell at all
Few reasons. First she also isn't very found of divination and this sounds like it. Even if prophecy says you will do something that doesn't mean it somehow became easy to you and Harry still had to perform complicated spell for the first time. Same would be true if he would pick up a tree and throw it at dementors. Yea he did it in the past but how he did it in. Plus it is a bit of "information paradox", if his happy though was him casting the patronus then how he casted it in the first place
Because while Hermione is brilliant when it comes to an academic and intellectual understanding of magic, what Harry is describing is intuition and feeling. These are their distinct strengths.
Harry Potter's Time Travel is like my favourite version of it but only if you ignore the fever dream of bad writing of the Cursed Child, which you should always be doing anyway let's be honest
This was my biggest frustration with Cursed Child; that they got the time travel mechanic wrong. It's 12 monkeys or the first 2 Terminator movies, not a DeLorean (also screw anything after the first two terminators)
It's actually my least favourite version of it because it feels so pointless. Like it fundamentally means that free will can't exist because there's a "true" timeline. Anything you think you do was actually imposed into you by fate to ensure the one true outcome. Why bother going back in time if you can't truly change anything? The thing you wanted to change will simply remain the same. Sirius' case is very niche
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 Probably why it's mostly just used for taking extra school classes lol. At the very least, you can answer questions like "why didn't they just go back in time and..." with "because we know they didn't."
Time Turners are based upon the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle which states that if an event exists that would cause a paradox or any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero. It would thus be impossible to create time paradoxes. This means that when traveling back in time to change an event, that event must have always happened that way and cannot be altered.
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 It actually makes it incredibly essential because it means that you have to time travel to make those events take place as they were supposed to.
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 True, but something being impossible has never stopped people from at least *trying* to do it, and that's all it'll take to enable those events to happen as they eventually did.
@@BlueSparxLPs Yes,I’m not saying it’s a paradox. I’m just saying it’s ultimately pointless. In a way,it doesn’t feel like time travel to me. I don’t really know what it does feel like or why it doesn’t feel like time travel but it just doesn’t to me. It also casually proves that free will doesn’t exist in the Harry Potter universe due to the “true” timeline existing. Ironically,that is a paradox because it has no start,no way to get it going so to speak. While our universe technically also doesn’t have a start (due to,you know,the fact that you can’t create or destroy matter and energy),time also doesn’t exist outside of our universe so it actually makes sense
I think an interesting way to explain the situation doesn't use "time travel" at all. Imagine the timeline as a constant unchanging sequence of events. (I don't know the exact times so I'll just be using numbers). At 3:00 Harry, Ron, and Hermione head to Hagrid's. At 3:05 a second Harry and Hermione are seemingly spontaneously generated with knowledge of the future. The following three hours play out the evening's events between the two groups. At 6:05 Harry and Hermione use the Time Turner, essentially ceasing to exist and allowing the pair that appeared three hours prior to take their place. There is no "first time around." Everything happened once but Harry and Hermione get to experience it twice.
Replace 3:00 with 8:55 (when they start heading to Hagrid's hut I don't know, but 5 minutes sounds about right), 3:05 with 9 (because of when I think they activate the Time-Turner) and 6:05 with (and I think the book says this exactly) midnight, and I think the times would be accurate- they'd at least be more so!
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 The way I think of it is this: the time turner knows that you are going to use it soon, and it knows how many turns you will be doing. In the case of Harry and Hermione, it was three hours. So once it is three hours before the characters use the time turner, it suddenly creates a version of you that does what you are eventually going to do. That's not you, but a prototype version of sorts, and after actually using the time turner, you are going to do things exactly as the prototype version did them. It's not how I believe actual time travel would work (assuming it could ever be done), but it could be how this magical device works.
@@luskaneseprincethis makes no sense all you did was transfer the paradox to the turner itself rather then harry and hermione and said the turner knows things that never happened by magic and makes them happen by magic
@yakirfrankoveig8094 Is it paradoxical for a magical object to know what will happen in the future (to know what Hermione and Harry will eventually end up doing)? It's definitely magical and couldn't ever exist in real life, but I don't think it inherently creates a paradox. The time travel paradox involves the idea that someone learns something from a future person (or their own future self) they could not have known otherwise, and acts upon this knowledge in a way that changes the future somehow. For example Harry learns that he can do the Patronus spell from his future self, but his future self could not have known that he has such a skill if it wasn't for a previous version of a future Harry that gave him that knowledge, and as such, a loop is born without origin. But if the time turner is the origin, then there is no paradox, I think? Unlike Harry, the time turner DOES always know how things will go and creates an "original copy" of you that plays things out exactly as it knows they will happen once you activate the device itself. It could have this knowledge, theoretically, if it knows every single thing about everyone and the world that surrounds us, and that's definitely an impressive "skill", but not a paradoxical one. You could call it a super-computer if you want, although why it would exist in the first place and who created it is another story.
Prisoner of Azkaban is imo one of the neatest examples of time travel done right, with a simple, yet logical set of rules. I've always found that frustrating about stories that overuse time travel without consistency because it then becomes a whole mess of alternative time lines that rend every action by the characters irrelevant. How much is actually at stake when fighting the villain if they can always rewind the story until the desired outcome is achieved? But this does not make sense because if you travel back in time to change something that you don't like in your present, then the motivation to travel back in time in the first place disappears, meaning you would not travel back to fix it. Now, with this logical set of rules in place, then time travel is a lot more limited as a plot device, but it can still make for a good story.
depends on the interpretation of the time travel. If time travel affect your mind as well, then it creates a paradox, but if it isnt - then most paradoxes are gone. Let's see examples: 1. Back to the future. Yes, affecting timelines creates branches, but people preserve memories. Like with what happened to Jennifer. She remembered everything about time travel, but nothing about events happened with Biff getting rich. So she has memory about events during time travel, but no memories about events outside of time travel. While Doc and Marty for sure remember everything. And while paper from future should be similar, it looks like memory is more complex thing than immaterial object. This is a typical case where you can rewind time until outcome is achieved. 2. Time travel like in Loki 2. TVA exist in singular timeline, so ability to travel in time creates ability to change other people memories as a consequence of time travel in the past. In this case, indeed changing past lead to change of the future, but for that you need to have control over the time itself. 3. Generic multiverse timeline like in Endgame where time travel is not different from traveling in other Universe. In this case changing past or future by time traveling is pointless - you jsut go into the timeline, which is suitable for you. You don't change original outcome. 4. Of course the most paradoxical thing is what is in Time machine or Terminator - where time travel creates butterfly effect leading to similar, but altered future and changing it is not that helpful. So, while butterfly effect is in action, you probably can't rewind time until goal is achieved. Universe will try to fix your "correction" in other way.
To me this means that the timer is essentially based on knowledge of an individual, similar to Schroedinger's cat: If someone knew everything, they could change nothing, because everything is already set in stone. But you can change everything of which you don't know the outcome. While they already saved Sirius before Dumbledore told them to go back, they didn't know if he was kissed yet, so they could still save him. This means that if you want to use the time turner to maximum effect, you have to stay away as much as possible from knowledge about things you might want to change later. Take Hermione missing that one class by accident while sleeping. Because Ron and Harry told her she missed it when she woke up, she couldn't go back. Had they not told her, she still could've gone back and attended.
I think you are right, and that's how Hermione means nobody can see you. Obviously somebody will see you phisically but you have to avoid the information about the thing you like to change
@@michaelappiah-kubi2829 hmm... But when Dumbledore told them, that they could save Buckbeak, the information about his dead became uncertain. Because Dumbledore knew that Buckpeak died or not, but Hermione couldn't be sure that he tell the truth. If Hermione believed Dumbledore, she knows immediately that they WILL save Buckpeak, cause they have already done it! But if she didn't believe him, they still have to try it, and save Sirius. Otherwise, why would Dumbledore told this to them, if Buckpeak died? It's a little bit wierd, but maybe Dumbledore saw that Buckpeak died, but the meantime saw the Hermione and Harry from the future, so he realized later, that they will try to save him. That's the answer if we think about that how Dumbledore knew that the time travelers will save Buckpeak: simply he saw them from Hagrids window, and later he realized, that they weren't the Originals.
Not a theory with any basis, but as Hermoine states that many wizards who meddle with time often manage to hurt the alternate versions of themselves but that would violate the loop that we see with the Time-Turner. Do you think its possible that there is other time magic we don't see and that the Time-Turner is honed in to create loops, so such scenarios can't happen? Not that we need to make space for the Cursed Child, but this would also allow the special Time-Turner to allow dramatic edits to the timeline, and also allows for wizards who meddle with time (without a time-turner) to succumb to all the terrible stories Hermoine has heard about. Also, it would allow the expanded Pottermore lore that traveling back and forth ages the wizard by however much time they skip to apply to unprotected time travel. TLDR - The Time-Turners are a government sanctioned "safe" form of time travel, which is why they'd let a underage wizards use it for class, as the loop it creates doesn't allow for edits.
@@FrequencyNegative McGonagall said that to Hermione. Hermione didn't aquire that knowledge from a book or written evidence. As J said, McGonagall was incorrect because the idea of that creates a paradox and ultimately a time loop. Edit: this is why the fan base collectively disregards the cursed child. It destroys the canon story. (Although I did go see the play and it was still cool lol).
As I pointed in another comment the time travel in CC doesn't even make sense internally. I mean, if Albus vanished because Voldy won shouldn't the time Turner have vanished too?? Both are contingent on Voldy losing, so either both or neither should have disappeared. And what happened to the Scorpius native to the Dark AU?? Did he just vanish when original!Scorpius entered there??? Was original!Scorpius just self-inserted into the darkAU!Scorpius' body?? Doesn't make any sense at all!
Well, that's not true is it? Any circle drawn or measured has a start point where you draw from, or a start where you first specify the center and radius. What IS true is that the same circle can be described in infinite ways, by starting on any point and then moving clockwaise or counterclockwise. But any actual physics real circle in the universe does indeed have a start.
@@phoebegilliland8897They know about Dr Who but haven't really watched it. I believe their youngest brother has though and that's why some versions of 'wibbly wobbly timey wimey suff' sometimes find their way into the videos :) I still hold onto hope that someday they will become proper whovians!
Three methods of time travel: Harry Potter/Predestination theory: everything that happens always happened. MCU/Dragon Ball/Branching theory: your actions cause a different timeline, but yours remains the same. Back to the Future/Butterfly theory: everything you do actively alters your present.
back to the future has an even different idea presented in back to the future 2, when you go back in time and create a butterfly affect and then try to go back in time to stop urself ur going back to a new timeline where u had done that, its still the same timeline but now u r returning to a different version of the timeline where u urself had changed it.
Not entirely True. The Marvin Berry or other examples BTTF goes back and forth between predetermined and can be changed The message of the film is unclear too. Doc always tells us you should Not change time. Even though he claims the future has Not been written yet it is presented like a simple repetition. Yet changing timelines often has positive outcomes. When ot has a negative outcome it is because Marty lacks character( bring greedy) This movie is less about time travel But personal growth. George has to learn to stand up for himself and others while Marty who comes more after his mother has to learn to stay calm. All this takes Place in a rigid order with a clear right or wrong. In my opinion this is the reason why every time stays the same. Marty has to become better within this order. It is not about seeing where Society is heading. It shows personal development or reasons for it.
Okay, but here is an interesting thing Imagine how weird it is that Dumbledore knows that two "innocent" lifes have to be saved, because to him Buckbeak never died so het doesn't need to save him. That's some big brain moves right there
Yes, and what if Harry and Hermione messed it up? Buckbeak would indeed die and it wouldn’t prevent them from later going back in time. “Everything that happened always happened” also means they can’t fail in anything, really.
Just because Buckbeak didn't die doesn't mean his life didn't need saving. Harry and Hermione needed to save Buckbeak's life the way they saved it already.
@k9commander I'm confused. Are you suggesting that Dumbledore may have spotted Harry and Hermione saving Buckbeak, or that he just knew Buckbeak had no chance of survival and however he was saved, someone must have intervened?
@@richardjohnson293 Dumbledore came with the Minister. Saw Buckbeak. Went into Hagrid's hut. Came out with everyone, and Buckbeak was gone. Buckbeak was rescued. If he didn't see them, he figured it out. Hours later, he told them to rescue Buckbeak.
11:13 A certain amount of predestination? Oh, no. The HP universe is *entirely* predestined, but the only time you can peak under time's skirt and see that is when you use a time turner. Also, the best way to describe HP time travel is that it is a variation of Naruto Shadow Clones. You can't change events, but you do experience the same time twice.
I think the point with the bootstrap paradox is that the moment you interfere and create a paradox, you in a way kill “future you”, because you prevent “past you” to live up the point where you use the time turner to go back. That’s why for successful time travel you must not be seen and “everything that happens always happens”. The question is if minor details couldn’t yet be changed. BTTF works on a similar premise: Marty inadvertently interrupts how his parents meet and therefore he has to fix this, without exposing himself. He only trusts in Doc. Minor changes occur, but the main events play out like they used to. I know it is not the same concept, and I like the HP version more, but they only started to get lost in paradox and alternate timelines in the second part. The first one is almost straight forward.
QUESTION/THEORY TIME! Dumbledore is seemingly either always at the right place at the right time, or seems to know everything that is happening at pretty much any given moment. Is it possible that he has a time turner/made one himself that he has potentially kept secret from the ministry? Seems to fit pretty nicely into the “DUMBLEDORE’S BIG PLAN” theory as well.
If so then he must almost certainly have a VERY strict rule for himself where he only ever uses it for information-gathering, never for acting. And admittedly, that is a _very_ useful feature of the time turner. To my knowledge though there's nothing much to grasp onto that needs explaining that could be explained this way. Especially in light of the countless investigative instruments in his office that do all sorts of who-even-knows-what. They'd be the first suspect for anything Dumbledore knows that he shouldn't. Honestly, that's the question _I_ want answered. The heck do any of those instruments do?
@@riluna3695 Information-gathering is indistinguishable from acting: past-you gathering information about the future and using that to change things in the past is exactly the same reverse-causal influence as future-you using your knowledge from the future to do things in the past. Consider for illustration two scenarios: future-you writes a letter to past-you telling past-you what to do, and goes back in time to deliver it; or, future-you writes a letter to past-you telling past-you what to do, and past-you comes forward in time to retrieve it. In both cases the exact same information has been communicated and will have the same influence by future-you on past-you's actions, so if one is prohibited so is the other.
@@Pfhorrest That's pretty wild to tihnk about :D If you go back to effect some change yourself (which you'd always done the first time, naturally), that's really no different from going back to inform your past self in some way about it to have _them_ solve the problem instead. Either way, someone who had information from the future acted on it in the present. Crazy. All that said, though, what I was suggesting was that Dumbledore would have a self-imposed rule to not act in any way at ALL. So the first trip through, he goes through the situation with no special knowledge (aside from the fact that he's Albus Dumbledore, anyway...), and comes to learn of some event he missed that he wants more information on, so uses a Time Turner to go back and just quietly and invisibly watch, taking no action. So neither of his selves are doing anything about what's happening, but after his first self flips the time-turner, his second self carries on existing, with this extra knowledge under his belt, and can act on it from there if he so chooses. There were kinda two reasons for suggesting it in the first place. The first is that I don't see any mysteries in the series that require this explanation to solve them, so this is very unlikely to be something the author intended, meaning if he DID do it, it'd be in a way that showed no real after-effects. And second, he's the type of person who may well ban himself from abusing powerful objects out of fear of what he might do with them. So if he ever felt the need to use a time-turner, he'd probably prefer to use it in that way. Just info-gathering for later, nothing more in the moment.
@@Pfhorrest I don't think that's what they meant by information gathering. What they mean is future you goes back in time to get a second perspective on events you did not have the answer to. You remain hidden and secret until the point that past you uses the time travel to go back and obtain the information. At this point in time, you can step back in as "present" you but now you have TWO perspectives on the events that happened during the overlap rather than just the one. An example could be someone who procrastinated on writing an essay. The essay is due in 2 hours and they have 0 work done. They know they can get half of it done in that two hours, so they work on it, then right at the last minute, go back in time to write the other half. This means that past them is writing half 1 while future them is writing half 2. Once past them goes back in time, future them steps in, combines the two halves into a single essay and turns it in. Technically you could do this multiple multiple times as long as you never interact in ways that would get you caught or found out. This is exactly how Hermione attended multiple classes at once, though I guess that interacts with people in a way that it is definitely weird that students didn't talk and be like "Hermione is in this class with me" "That's impossible because I saw her in my x class as well during that time." At least with information gathering you can just not interact with anyone if you truly keep secret. You could be investigating dozens of locations worldwide at the same time and then eventually once all iterations of you have used the time turner to go back in time, you'll end up with one you that has 12x the information that you would have had had you not used the time turner.
5:03: When he says that with luck two inocent lives can be saved he didn't talk about Buckbeak. He knows that he survived already, since he was there when the Griff disappeared and the executioner hacked a pumpkin into pieces instead. So it's just about Sirius being a potential second survivor.
Ooh! You guys should make the series, "What if the trio kept the time-turner?" It would be imteresting to see how such a powerful item would affect the story when, as you explain, time travel can't change the past.
@UnfazedPhoenix I'm sorry, I meant how it would affect the story if the characters could use it to their advantage going forward, such as being in two places at once. Though you can't change the past with these time travel rules, it still has innumerable applications (which would be quite useful to three mischievous teens fighting a war against a dark lord).
Or "what if they had one as far back as the '91-'92 school year?" When/why would they need to use it in books 1-2, for example? Of course, at least in the main story the trio would only be able to have it for 5 years- but what would make them skip the Time Room entirely in Order? *That's* the *only* way they'd be able to have it available in the '96-'97 and '97-'98 school years, as Hermione explains in HBP (scene where they get back their OWL reports)!
@@trevorjackson7054 It wouldn't because everything that happens always happens. From a book writing standpoint, it would potentially give us as readers more context, but that's all. However, it would be cool to see different perspectives. It would ultimately make the story too convoluted. Still a fun idea ❤️
@@wyattstevens8574 @wyattstevens8574 everything that happens always happens. It wouldn't do anything except overly complicate the story. They aren't going to give 11 year olds time turners.
I am so glad that you got this right. Ever since Prisoner came out I’ve been hearing people ask “Why don’t they use time turners more? They can fix every problem.” and it is so infuriating because as you explained time turners are incapable of fixing any problems because any problems that exist are problems that you didn’t fix when you used the time turner otherwise they wouldn’t have been problems in the first place.
the even more funny part is that despite using a time turner to go to more classes hermione still didnt get 12 owls on her owl exams, whilst percy did, wonder how did that🤔
Ending up killing yourself in the future and having to live with the thought of an inescapable death by your own hands until it inevitability happens sounds like an awesome idea for a movie. Someone more talented and less lazy than me plasma write that
Talking about the whole free will part. I don’t think it’s so much that the characters are forced to perform the actions that they had already done, it’s more that those are the choice they made and will always make. The future and past versions of Harry are identical and, when given the exact same situation, think identically and make identical choices. When Harry casts the patronus, he makes the choice to cast it. From his perspective that’s his free will to cast it or not. But every version of him is going to choose to cast it because they all have the exact same thought processes
Shouldn’t lupin have seen 2 versions of Harry and hermione when he was looking at the map? They were pretty close to themselves when they went down into the tunnel
The map has a tendency to only reveal the names of hidden people at plot appropriate moments. I imagine this is part of the magic of the map- and as such, it has a cooldown period. So it had just spat out the whole Sirus and Pettigrew thing, it wasn't going to hand out another plot reveal for at least a year! 🤣🤣
Harry being able to cast the corporeal patronus because he's already done falls in the same category as his meeting with Dumbledore at King's Cross in limbo. I'm pretty sure he isn't given any truely new information, "Dumbledore" just puts everything into context and a new perspective for him to see more clearly. It neatly plays into Harry's biggest strength being his powerful instincts. Man, Harry is actually such a cool guy!
What Doesn‘t make sense is That you are Not allowed to speak to yourself because as Hermione says you would Go insane because you don’t know what is going on Nur if you would know of time turners and maybe even have access to Thema you would know what is going on Like of Hermione would have talked to herself during poa her present and past self would have known about time turners, so she couldnt harm herself
She could have become her own study partner....imagine, she meets up every night with a version of herself who already took the test. "No- don't bother focusing on that section, there aren't any questions on the test in it. But this bit here really provides context for one of the essay questions."
I always found it incredible that Dumbledore saw that Buckbeak had been saved in the past, but he realized that it was through his advice from the future that led to Buckbeak's saving in the past.
5:17 I would have worded it as "Definitely not, because they haven't lived through those events yet as their *younger* selves, and thus to *close* this loop, they have to go back in time in order to complete the mission in the first place"
Off topic from video. What if you guys did a series about all of the golden trio being in different houses, Harry in Slytherin, Ron in Hufflepuff and Hermione in Ravenclaw.
Remember that the time travel between movie and book is very different, in book when you travel through time you also travel through space relevant to the position you used to be, thus from the hospital wing they travel to the entrance hall where they were three hours ago, but in the move they travel through space relevant only to where they currently are, going from hospital wing to hospital wing, which means they still travel through space for as the earth rotates the spacial coordinates of the hospital wing changes. If they were stationary, they would most likely end up somewhere in the air. The type of time travel we see and read about in POA is called self-consistent time travel
I absolutely agree. Which makes the scene in which Dumbledore orders Harry and Hermione to travel back in time and "possibly save two lives" particularly exciting. At this point, i.e. in the first timeline, Dumbledore already knows that Buckbeak has escaped. He was there. Was he somehow able to magically sense that someone in the area was time traveling and drew the right conclusions?
I always thought that keen eyed Dumbledore spotted Harry and Hermione hiding at Hagrid's. In the movie, they lean into this- as Dumbledore has a moment where he pulls the Minster's attention in a different direction, while Harry and Hermione duck out of sight. In the book, I think Dumbledore calls Fudge back to sign the paperwork, preventing him from looking out the window. Then, when Dumbledore speaks to the kids at the Hospital wing, he can gather that they have no idea that Buckbeak is still alive, figures out on his own that the Time Turner was involved, and then drops the suggestion to Hermione with the knowledge that at least half the plan should work.
13:16 I think in this situation, it would be similar to how it happened in the books. That past you would accidentally kill future you but not be aware of it at all, and then would go on not knowing the danger they are in until it was too late.
Marvel Snap partnership is the BIGGEST of big times for the SuperCarlinBros. I've never seen J so excited for an ad read, his mustache was quivering with excitement
12:33 i've always interpreted this as like, you didnt see yourself in the past, so yout cant interact with yourself in the future, after you travel, so if you try to do so, something is going to happen to prevent it, and that something could be you dying
What I like about the 'more than one innocent life' line is that Harry and Hermione think that the 'one' is referencing Sirius and it takes them a while to arrive at Buckbeak being the 'more', but it is actually the other way around. Dumbledore already knows Buckbeak is saved, since he was there for the planned execution, and he hopes they will be able to save Sirius as well.
I think it should probably also be mentioned that HP Time Travel isn’t (or doesn’t seem to be) one those “meet/touch your past/future self you die/seize to exist/cause a black hole” types of time travel You shouldn’t interact with you past self because when you were you’re past self you didn’t meet your future self and (as J has explained) what didn’t happen the first go round won’t happen the second. But if you ARE confronted by your Future Self then you DO have to talk to your Past Self when you use the Time Turner and go back in time. Make sense?
What if your past self killed your future self without even knowing who they had killed? Then you would want to go back to prevent your past self into killing someone just to end up being killed by your past self
The fancy term for this version of time travel is called a "closed loop " or a "clausal Loop", the best way I was explained to about it was this: Imagine the turn of events is a roller coaster with a loopdy loop in the middle, as you go forward on the roller coaster u reach the point where ur cart goes through a loop big enough that passes across the part of the ride you have already been on and comes out the other side continuing to the next section of the ride. The cart is you passing through time, the ride itself is the passage of time, and the loop is you using the time turner to go back past the part of time you have already been through. This roller coast ride will never change, the loop on the ride itself will always be there, and you yourself in the cart will always go through that loop.
Can you look into my theory about how both harry and neville are the chosen one at the same time. Like the prophecy wasnt pointing to only one being the chosen one it was pointing to both, seeing as it still applies to neville and obviously applies to harry, as well as the fact that they would need each other either way. Harry needed neville to kill the snake for him, and neville would still need harry to die because he's a horcrux.
14:54 its like the prophecies . Its not like harry would be the chosen one no matter what voldemort did. But the choices voldemort will make of his free will will lead to harry being the chosen one
It comes down to commitment. If they didn't save them or made no effort to that would also create a paradox. Pretty sure Rick and Morty did it too in the Christmas alien snake episode.
I think it's important to remember that by the time Dumbledore tells Harry and Hermione to go back in time, Dumbledore has already witnessed Buckbeak's absence and apparent escape. He probably had deduced that something was awry, but made no hint of it to Harry and Hermione that Buckbeak was already 'spared' from his point of view. When it comes to Sirius, it seems he was legitimately unaware (though likely suspected), but with Buckbeak he is outright acting so as not to give away unnecessary information.
Do you think the reason Dumbledore came up with the idea to send Harry and Hermione back in time is because during the course of the events he saw 2 separate versions of Harry and Hermione on his own version of the Marauders map and realised someone would have to give them the idea? I know it's not canon that he has a map but we do know he always knows what's going on in Hogwarts and it's safe to guess he has one.
Completely not talking about the play is great. Great show, but to us who love HP we dont talk about cursed child. It doesnt exist because it breaks its own rules. Its just a fanfiction to us lol
The section being described at time stamp 13:20 (aprox) is exactly what happened to The Master in DW. The prime minister of England version of The Master runs into Missy on an alien space ship. They kill each other. PM version uses a weapon that prevents regeneration from happening, then regenerates into Missy. Same thing being described. Future self killed by past self.
The one gripe I have with HP time travel is that it's not clear why the timeline of Harry saving himself played out instead of the one where he just loses his soul, which also wouldn't have a paradox. The best solution to this problem I've come up with is that harry getting kissed would actually cause a paradox, maybe because Dumbledore would take the time turner and save him, although it still kinda bothers me that it's not clear why Harry saving himself was the solution to the paradox
I have a sneaking suspicion that the laws governing time can be broken. Instead of a new timeline, however, the time traveller is cursed somehow, and everything gets screwy. Time itself starts to break. Thats when you call in theUnspeskake..p
The wild thing is that the pre-destination effect of going back in time with the time turner actually puts you at great risk. No matter what, you can’t change the past, so to the extent you are set on attempting to, it will always fail. Past you can’t die because past you eventually needs to reach the point where they can use the time turner to go back in time BUT present you who has already gone back in time is 100% at risk of dying, especially if that death is necessary to prevent the alteration of the past.
I think this explanation is part of the correct explanation, but they’re wrong that it’s impossible to change anything. I think that for the most part, time will unravel in the way we see in PoA, and this explanation is a perfectly apt explanation for why/how. But I don’t think time is as immutable as Jay says. I think that time WANTS events to always unfold the same, and it’s elastic enough that if you push against it, it’ll give, but ultimately snap back. But if you FORCE yourself against it, that elasticity can only stretch so much; there IS a breaking point, and if you reach it, THAT’S when you get into terrible consequences. For example, if Harry had shrugged Hermoine off and gone for his cloak, Snape would have spotted him and most likely altered events to the point that Harry wouldn’t have been in position to cast his Patronus. And THAT’S the situation that McGonagall told Hermoine about how people have killed themselves while meddling with time.
Heyyy brotherrrs!! Huge fan of all your channels, and I already have tickets for Tampa!! Anyway, I was watching CoS the other day and was at the part where Tom is explaining that he preserved the memory of his younger self in the diary, and it got me to thinking. If Tom put that memory into the diary, and the diary was destroyed, does that mean Voldemort no longer remembers that he framed Hagrid? And what if there were other important memories stored in the diary, like the Slughorn memory? I think he would believe them to be safe, seeing as how the diary itself would have to reveal the information. I've always wondered why Voldemort would let Slughorn stay alive, seeing as he is the only person that knows his secret, but if voldi prime no longer has that memory, it could explain it. Young Tom riddle also understands the power of memories and how they can be used against you, seeing as how he altered the memory's of the people he crossed.
Gambit is one of my cards of choice in Marvel Snap, combined with anything that makes it repeat. I haven't played the game in months but it was so fun when I did.
Random question. Anyone know why in the Order of the Phoenix, there is no ministry security and no order member on guard the night Harry goes after seeing the vision of Sirius?
Quick explanation: you could view time like a shoelace. Without time travel, time moves in a straight line. If you loop the path you take back on itself, then the path you’re taking is your first experience of it; but you could view the bigger picture of everything happening together from the outside. A shoelace only follows one path from point A to B, but if you loop it back on itself correctly; then the view from the outside shows a section with a knot that comes out the other side
In mlp:fim s5e25-26, we are shown how different timelines / parallel universes are created. Which is different to what happens when harry and hermione use the time turner.
11:54 - I get this, but then why does Dumbledore say more than one life can be saved? It plays out like he means Buckbeak and Sirius, but by the time they use the time turner buckbeak was already saved. So if you’re saying they needed to use time turner right then before Sirius potentially got the kiss (because everything remains as it ever was) then why did they go all the way back to save buckbeak? That moment in time already happened, he wasn’t killed, by these rules they shouldn’t need to help him cause they’d be unable to affect his outcome
My guess would be that he was able to identify that they were the reason for buckbeaks disappearance and therefore pointing them in that direction was necessary
@@justriskit4423In other words, "... both have been saved- just... it was current you who saved both! Do it- and BTW, Hermione, 9:00 is a late enough destination. Go back to then."
For anyone who didn't catch the Bill & Ted reference when he was talking about the bootstrap paradox, here's one from Back To the Future: "Johnny B. Goode!" (just put Berry in the place of Mozart/Beethoven, and that in place of whatever symphony he was talking about)
I can recommend the German mystery series “Dark”. The time travel mechanics here are based on the same principle. One of the characters there says the appropriate sentence “You are not free in what you do because you are not free in what you want”. Even if you try to prevent things, it can happen that you trigger them in the first place. and because they have happened, the future self then wants to prevent them. And this triggers them....
One thing that was mentioned on TTGD that I found helpful was when Hermione fell asleep and missed a class. (I don't remember the chapter off the top of my head.) She couldn't use the time turner to go back and attend the class, because she already missed it the first time around, therefore she will always miss it. If she had woken up on her own and gone back, then she never missed class, and Harry and Ron would never find her sleeping and wake her up.
just as a quick aside, i'm not sure if it's an issue but i would probably put a seizure warning before going through all those super quickly flashing images like you did at the start of the video. If it is an issue for anyone watching that's kind of a bad move to just throw in like this without warning.
The idea of “what happens in the past always already happened” in time travel actually was also used in the five kingdoms books from Brandon Mull! So when you talked about it in through the griffin door, I knew *exactly* what you were getting at!
I love time travel stuff & Prisoner is 1 of my favourite Harry Potter films. (Haven't got round to reading the books.) The best example of this sort of time loop I've seen is The Terminator. If Kyle Reece & the T800 didn't go back in time, John Connor & Skynet would never exist to send them back. Another brilliant example is the Star Trek: The Next Generation 2-parter Time's Arrow. Data's head ends up 500 years older than the rest of his body & Mark Twain's watch is infinitely old with no origin point. I've tried explaining stuff like this to people who don't understand time travel before so I found it quite funny to see someone else trying to do it.
I think the loop only remains stable IF you avoid paradox. It’s not so much predestination as that if you don’t follow the “predestined” path and try to change things, you will glitch time and Bad Things will happen, probably but not exclusively to you, which is why is so heavily prohibited.
The way I make sense of it is this: You only experience the current time-space linearly (also known as your world line, the intersection of your position in the three spatial dimensions with your position in time). You can not change that experience, and you can't go back to that world line. Even if you can go back in time to the same time, you are physically standing in a different space, even if you are standing right next to where you were in the initial world line. At best, if you revert back to the same time and place, you're never actually in the same world line, you're just parallel to it, and any perceived "change" would have already been accounted for when you experienced the initial world line.
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JOHN CONNOR ( _Terminator: Genisys_ ): There's a momentum to time, Kyle. Things that want to happen.
Got my Nashville ticket already! And I got the $50 meet and greet I can't wait for my poster!
I plan on going to the Charlotte one
Bring the tour to the Lone Star State!
It’s more of the creeper stash then the monopoly one
Does anyone look at J and get the sudden urge to play Monopoly and eat some Pringles? Just me?
I'm just waiting for his villian arc
Personally I feel a sudden loathing for hedgehogs
@@JohnMinkit took a secret to catch on, and oh my lord is that funny
Not monopoly but I have an urge to eat Pringles. OH WAIT IT'S A JOKE ABOUT HIS MOUSTACHE FRICK
That explains why i grabbed 3 pringles containers Sunday afternoon!
This is why I don’t get why Hermione doesn’t understand Harry when he explains that he knew he could cast the stag when he “already did it”
Because she doesn't understand how the time tuner actually works. She thinks the past can be changed and so she thinks they were not there the first time
I think it's because she was riding a hippogriff and trying not to sick up, not because she wasn't clever.
I think what Hermione doesnt get is how he thought he saw his dad. Logically to her it doesnt make sense that he would think he saw his father cause his father is dead and cant be there. She also doesnt know how a patronus works at this point either so she probably doesnt understand how he can cast the spell at all
Few reasons. First she also isn't very found of divination and this sounds like it. Even if prophecy says you will do something that doesn't mean it somehow became easy to you and Harry still had to perform complicated spell for the first time. Same would be true if he would pick up a tree and throw it at dementors. Yea he did it in the past but how he did it in. Plus it is a bit of "information paradox", if his happy though was him casting the patronus then how he casted it in the first place
Because while Hermione is brilliant when it comes to an academic and intellectual understanding of magic, what Harry is describing is intuition and feeling. These are their distinct strengths.
Harry Potter's Time Travel is like my favourite version of it but only if you ignore the fever dream of bad writing of the Cursed Child, which you should always be doing anyway let's be honest
Idk... The Time Jumper from Stargate SG1 & SG Atlantis was freaking awesome
This was my biggest frustration with Cursed Child; that they got the time travel mechanic wrong. It's 12 monkeys or the first 2 Terminator movies, not a DeLorean (also screw anything after the first two terminators)
It's actually my least favourite version of it because it feels so pointless. Like it fundamentally means that free will can't exist because there's a "true" timeline. Anything you think you do was actually imposed into you by fate to ensure the one true outcome. Why bother going back in time if you can't truly change anything? The thing you wanted to change will simply remain the same. Sirius' case is very niche
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 Probably why it's mostly just used for taking extra school classes lol. At the very least, you can answer questions like "why didn't they just go back in time and..." with "because we know they didn't."
What I gather from this comment is, "If you haven't seen/read Cursed Child, don't."
Noted 👌
J: **mentions Bootstrap Paradox**
Me (instinctively): Who really wrote Beethovens fifth?
Dr who!!
Time Turners are based upon the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle which states that if an event exists that would cause a paradox or any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero. It would thus be impossible to create time paradoxes. This means that when traveling back in time to change an event, that event must have always happened that way and cannot be altered.
Makes time travel kinda useless if you can't change anything though
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 It actually makes it incredibly essential because it means that you have to time travel to make those events take place as they were supposed to.
@@JEdits1 But you’d only ever go back in time because you want to change something and you can’t.
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 True, but something being impossible has never stopped people from at least *trying* to do it, and that's all it'll take to enable those events to happen as they eventually did.
@@BlueSparxLPs Yes,I’m not saying it’s a paradox. I’m just saying it’s ultimately pointless. In a way,it doesn’t feel like time travel to me. I don’t really know what it does feel like or why it doesn’t feel like time travel but it just doesn’t to me. It also casually proves that free will doesn’t exist in the Harry Potter universe due to the “true” timeline existing. Ironically,that is a paradox because it has no start,no way to get it going so to speak. While our universe technically also doesn’t have a start (due to,you know,the fact that you can’t create or destroy matter and energy),time also doesn’t exist outside of our universe so it actually makes sense
I think an interesting way to explain the situation doesn't use "time travel" at all.
Imagine the timeline as a constant unchanging sequence of events. (I don't know the exact times so I'll just be using numbers). At 3:00 Harry, Ron, and Hermione head to Hagrid's. At 3:05 a second Harry and Hermione are seemingly spontaneously generated with knowledge of the future. The following three hours play out the evening's events between the two groups. At 6:05 Harry and Hermione use the Time Turner, essentially ceasing to exist and allowing the pair that appeared three hours prior to take their place. There is no "first time around." Everything happened once but Harry and Hermione get to experience it twice.
Ok, this is my favorite way of looking at it.
yeh I like this
Replace 3:00 with 8:55 (when they start heading to Hagrid's hut I don't know, but 5 minutes sounds about right), 3:05 with 9 (because of when I think they activate the Time-Turner) and 6:05 with (and I think the book says this exactly) midnight, and I think the times would be accurate- they'd at least be more so!
@@DrTimes99 I think that will help people understand. Nicely said.
That's how I understood it when reading the book.
I'll admit that HP time travel is one of the more elegant ways to eliminate paradoxes. Not counting the cursed child because that sh*t ain't cannon.
Except it IS a paradox, the whole thing is a massive paradox because it has no starting point. Meaning it could never have happened.
@@satsujin-shathewitchkingof6185 The way I think of it is this: the time turner knows that you are going to use it soon, and it knows how many turns you will be doing. In the case of Harry and Hermione, it was three hours. So once it is three hours before the characters use the time turner, it suddenly creates a version of you that does what you are eventually going to do. That's not you, but a prototype version of sorts, and after actually using the time turner, you are going to do things exactly as the prototype version did them.
It's not how I believe actual time travel would work (assuming it could ever be done), but it could be how this magical device works.
@@luskaneseprince I mean,that could definitely work. We know they can also teleport the user so they’re clearly powerful
@@luskaneseprincethis makes no sense all you did was transfer the paradox to the turner itself rather then harry and hermione and said the turner knows things that never happened by magic and makes them happen by magic
@yakirfrankoveig8094 Is it paradoxical for a magical object to know what will happen in the future (to know what Hermione and Harry will eventually end up doing)? It's definitely magical and couldn't ever exist in real life, but I don't think it inherently creates a paradox. The time travel paradox involves the idea that someone learns something from a future person (or their own future self) they could not have known otherwise, and acts upon this knowledge in a way that changes the future somehow. For example Harry learns that he can do the Patronus spell from his future self, but his future self could not have known that he has such a skill if it wasn't for a previous version of a future Harry that gave him that knowledge, and as such, a loop is born without origin. But if the time turner is the origin, then there is no paradox, I think? Unlike Harry, the time turner DOES always know how things will go and creates an "original copy" of you that plays things out exactly as it knows they will happen once you activate the device itself. It could have this knowledge, theoretically, if it knows every single thing about everyone and the world that surrounds us, and that's definitely an impressive "skill", but not a paradoxical one. You could call it a super-computer if you want, although why it would exist in the first place and who created it is another story.
Prisoner of Azkaban is imo one of the neatest examples of time travel done right, with a simple, yet logical set of rules. I've always found that frustrating about stories that overuse time travel without consistency because it then becomes a whole mess of alternative time lines that rend every action by the characters irrelevant. How much is actually at stake when fighting the villain if they can always rewind the story until the desired outcome is achieved? But this does not make sense because if you travel back in time to change something that you don't like in your present, then the motivation to travel back in time in the first place disappears, meaning you would not travel back to fix it. Now, with this logical set of rules in place, then time travel is a lot more limited as a plot device, but it can still make for a good story.
depends on the interpretation of the time travel. If time travel affect your mind as well, then it creates a paradox, but if it isnt - then most paradoxes are gone. Let's see examples:
1. Back to the future. Yes, affecting timelines creates branches, but people preserve memories. Like with what happened to Jennifer. She remembered everything about time travel, but nothing about events happened with Biff getting rich. So she has memory about events during time travel, but no memories about events outside of time travel. While Doc and Marty for sure remember everything. And while paper from future should be similar, it looks like memory is more complex thing than immaterial object. This is a typical case where you can rewind time until outcome is achieved.
2. Time travel like in Loki 2. TVA exist in singular timeline, so ability to travel in time creates ability to change other people memories as a consequence of time travel in the past. In this case, indeed changing past lead to change of the future, but for that you need to have control over the time itself.
3. Generic multiverse timeline like in Endgame where time travel is not different from traveling in other Universe. In this case changing past or future by time traveling is pointless - you jsut go into the timeline, which is suitable for you. You don't change original outcome.
4. Of course the most paradoxical thing is what is in Time machine or Terminator - where time travel creates butterfly effect leading to similar, but altered future and changing it is not that helpful. So, while butterfly effect is in action, you probably can't rewind time until goal is achieved. Universe will try to fix your "correction" in other way.
DB has a good way too.
The different timelines make paradoxes impossible.
To me this means that the timer is essentially based on knowledge of an individual, similar to Schroedinger's cat: If someone knew everything, they could change nothing, because everything is already set in stone. But you can change everything of which you don't know the outcome. While they already saved Sirius before Dumbledore told them to go back, they didn't know if he was kissed yet, so they could still save him. This means that if you want to use the time turner to maximum effect, you have to stay away as much as possible from knowledge about things you might want to change later. Take Hermione missing that one class by accident while sleeping. Because Ron and Harry told her she missed it when she woke up, she couldn't go back. Had they not told her, she still could've gone back and attended.
I think you are right, and that's how Hermione means nobody can see you. Obviously somebody will see you phisically but you have to avoid the information about the thing you like to change
@@koraj92I don’t get it. They knew buckbeak died, buckbeak is destined to die then
@@michaelappiah-kubi2829 hmm... But when Dumbledore told them, that they could save Buckbeak, the information about his dead became uncertain. Because Dumbledore knew that Buckpeak died or not, but Hermione couldn't be sure that he tell the truth. If Hermione believed Dumbledore, she knows immediately that they WILL save Buckpeak, cause they have already done it! But if she didn't believe him, they still have to try it, and save Sirius.
Otherwise, why would Dumbledore told this to them, if Buckpeak died? It's a little bit wierd, but maybe Dumbledore saw that Buckpeak died, but the meantime saw the Hermione and Harry from the future, so he realized later, that they will try to save him.
That's the answer if we think about that how Dumbledore knew that the time travelers will save Buckpeak: simply he saw them from Hagrids window, and later he realized, that they weren't the Originals.
Not a theory with any basis, but as Hermoine states that many wizards who meddle with time often manage to hurt the alternate versions of themselves but that would violate the loop that we see with the Time-Turner. Do you think its possible that there is other time magic we don't see and that the Time-Turner is honed in to create loops, so such scenarios can't happen? Not that we need to make space for the Cursed Child, but this would also allow the special Time-Turner to allow dramatic edits to the timeline, and also allows for wizards who meddle with time (without a time-turner) to succumb to all the terrible stories Hermoine has heard about. Also, it would allow the expanded Pottermore lore that traveling back and forth ages the wizard by however much time they skip to apply to unprotected time travel.
TLDR - The Time-Turners are a government sanctioned "safe" form of time travel, which is why they'd let a underage wizards use it for class, as the loop it creates doesn't allow for edits.
this is a great comment all around, especially the sentence: "Not that we need to make space for the Cursed Child"
I love this comment. And if you don't have access would love to submit it to their patron on your behalf.
@@FrequencyNegative McGonagall said that to Hermione. Hermione didn't aquire that knowledge from a book or written evidence. As J said, McGonagall was incorrect because the idea of that creates a paradox and ultimately a time loop. Edit: this is why the fan base collectively disregards the cursed child. It destroys the canon story. (Although I did go see the play and it was still cool lol).
@@sheamardis7409 Go for it!
As I pointed in another comment the time travel in CC doesn't even make sense internally. I mean, if Albus vanished because Voldy won shouldn't the time Turner have vanished too?? Both are contingent on Voldy losing, so either both or neither should have disappeared. And what happened to the Scorpius native to the Dark AU?? Did he just vanish when original!Scorpius entered there??? Was original!Scorpius just self-inserted into the darkAU!Scorpius' body?? Doesn't make any sense at all!
A circle has no beginning.
+
Ouroboros 😎
Well, that's not true is it? Any circle drawn or measured has a start point where you draw from, or a start where you first specify the center and radius.
What IS true is that the same circle can be described in infinite ways, by starting on any point and then moving clockwaise or counterclockwise. But any actual physics real circle in the universe does indeed have a start.
@gregoryfenn1462 it's a Luna Lovegood quote.
@@amirhosseinmaghsoodi388It's the answer to the Ravenclaw common room entrance the night of the battle, actually.
The time travel paradox you mentioned about Beethoven was mentioned in doctor who when Capaldi was the doctor
Do you think the brothers are Whovians?!
@phoebegilliland8897 maybe
@@phoebegilliland8897They know about Dr Who but haven't really watched it. I believe their youngest brother has though and that's why some versions of 'wibbly wobbly timey wimey suff' sometimes find their way into the videos :) I still hold onto hope that someday they will become proper whovians!
I dont think so. They would never shut up about dw if that was the case
Yes! I had zero anticipation to see this mentioned but I'm so happy it was!
Three methods of time travel:
Harry Potter/Predestination theory: everything that happens always happened.
MCU/Dragon Ball/Branching theory: your actions cause a different timeline, but yours remains the same.
Back to the Future/Butterfly theory: everything you do actively alters your present.
back to the future has an even different idea presented in back to the future 2, when you go back in time and create a butterfly affect and then try to go back in time to stop urself ur going back to a new timeline where u had done that, its still the same timeline but now u r returning to a different version of the timeline where u urself had changed it.
TENET: brain ****
BTTF 1 (and BTTF 2 when they fix things) is closer to the Harry Potter type than you might think!
Not entirely True. The Marvin Berry or other examples BTTF goes back and forth between predetermined and can be changed
The message of the film is unclear too. Doc always tells us you should Not change time. Even though he claims the future has Not been written yet it is presented like a simple repetition.
Yet changing timelines often has positive outcomes.
When ot has a negative outcome it is because Marty lacks character( bring greedy)
This movie is less about time travel But personal growth.
George has to learn to stand up for himself and others while Marty who comes more after his mother has to learn to stay calm.
All this takes Place in a rigid order with a clear right or wrong.
In my opinion this is the reason why every time stays the same. Marty has to become better within this order. It is not about seeing where Society is heading.
It shows personal development or reasons for it.
"Did hermione & harry just timetravel to save Siruis and buckbeak?" -Ron
"You know it was really unclear" -Neville
Okay, but here is an interesting thing Imagine how weird it is that Dumbledore knows that two "innocent" lifes have to be saved, because to him Buckbeak never died so het doesn't need to save him. That's some big brain moves right there
Yes, and what if Harry and Hermione messed it up? Buckbeak would indeed die and it wouldn’t prevent them from later going back in time.
“Everything that happened always happened” also means they can’t fail in anything, really.
Just because Buckbeak didn't die doesn't mean his life didn't need saving.
Harry and Hermione needed to save Buckbeak's life the way they saved it already.
@k9commander I'm confused. Are you suggesting that Dumbledore may have spotted Harry and Hermione saving Buckbeak, or that he just knew Buckbeak had no chance of survival and however he was saved, someone must have intervened?
@@richardjohnson293
Dumbledore came with the Minister. Saw Buckbeak. Went into Hagrid's hut. Came out with everyone, and Buckbeak was gone. Buckbeak was rescued. If he didn't see them, he figured it out. Hours later, he told them to rescue Buckbeak.
@k9commander ahhhhh. Yes. I get it.
11:13 A certain amount of predestination? Oh, no. The HP universe is *entirely* predestined, but the only time you can peak under time's skirt and see that is when you use a time turner.
Also, the best way to describe HP time travel is that it is a variation of Naruto Shadow Clones. You can't change events, but you do experience the same time twice.
From 2 different angles!
Or my favourite time travel explanation: "It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff."
I think the point with the bootstrap paradox is that the moment you interfere and create a paradox, you in a way kill “future you”, because you prevent “past you” to live up the point where you use the time turner to go back. That’s why for successful time travel you must not be seen and “everything that happens always happens”.
The question is if minor details couldn’t yet be changed. BTTF works on a similar premise: Marty inadvertently interrupts how his parents meet and therefore he has to fix this, without exposing himself. He only trusts in Doc. Minor changes occur, but the main events play out like they used to. I know it is not the same concept, and I like the HP version more, but they only started to get lost in paradox and alternate timelines in the second part. The first one is almost straight forward.
Yup, I still can't wrap my mind around Biff changing his past, but returning to his original timeline.
QUESTION/THEORY TIME! Dumbledore is seemingly either always at the right place at the right time, or seems to know everything that is happening at pretty much any given moment. Is it possible that he has a time turner/made one himself that he has potentially kept secret from the ministry? Seems to fit pretty nicely into the “DUMBLEDORE’S BIG PLAN” theory as well.
If so then he must almost certainly have a VERY strict rule for himself where he only ever uses it for information-gathering, never for acting. And admittedly, that is a _very_ useful feature of the time turner. To my knowledge though there's nothing much to grasp onto that needs explaining that could be explained this way. Especially in light of the countless investigative instruments in his office that do all sorts of who-even-knows-what. They'd be the first suspect for anything Dumbledore knows that he shouldn't.
Honestly, that's the question _I_ want answered. The heck do any of those instruments do?
@@riluna3695 Information-gathering is indistinguishable from acting: past-you gathering information about the future and using that to change things in the past is exactly the same reverse-causal influence as future-you using your knowledge from the future to do things in the past. Consider for illustration two scenarios: future-you writes a letter to past-you telling past-you what to do, and goes back in time to deliver it; or, future-you writes a letter to past-you telling past-you what to do, and past-you comes forward in time to retrieve it. In both cases the exact same information has been communicated and will have the same influence by future-you on past-you's actions, so if one is prohibited so is the other.
@@Pfhorrest That's pretty wild to tihnk about :D If you go back to effect some change yourself (which you'd always done the first time, naturally), that's really no different from going back to inform your past self in some way about it to have _them_ solve the problem instead. Either way, someone who had information from the future acted on it in the present. Crazy.
All that said, though, what I was suggesting was that Dumbledore would have a self-imposed rule to not act in any way at ALL. So the first trip through, he goes through the situation with no special knowledge (aside from the fact that he's Albus Dumbledore, anyway...), and comes to learn of some event he missed that he wants more information on, so uses a Time Turner to go back and just quietly and invisibly watch, taking no action. So neither of his selves are doing anything about what's happening, but after his first self flips the time-turner, his second self carries on existing, with this extra knowledge under his belt, and can act on it from there if he so chooses.
There were kinda two reasons for suggesting it in the first place. The first is that I don't see any mysteries in the series that require this explanation to solve them, so this is very unlikely to be something the author intended, meaning if he DID do it, it'd be in a way that showed no real after-effects. And second, he's the type of person who may well ban himself from abusing powerful objects out of fear of what he might do with them. So if he ever felt the need to use a time-turner, he'd probably prefer to use it in that way. Just info-gathering for later, nothing more in the moment.
@@Pfhorrest I don't think that's what they meant by information gathering. What they mean is future you goes back in time to get a second perspective on events you did not have the answer to. You remain hidden and secret until the point that past you uses the time travel to go back and obtain the information. At this point in time, you can step back in as "present" you but now you have TWO perspectives on the events that happened during the overlap rather than just the one.
An example could be someone who procrastinated on writing an essay. The essay is due in 2 hours and they have 0 work done. They know they can get half of it done in that two hours, so they work on it, then right at the last minute, go back in time to write the other half. This means that past them is writing half 1 while future them is writing half 2. Once past them goes back in time, future them steps in, combines the two halves into a single essay and turns it in.
Technically you could do this multiple multiple times as long as you never interact in ways that would get you caught or found out. This is exactly how Hermione attended multiple classes at once, though I guess that interacts with people in a way that it is definitely weird that students didn't talk and be like "Hermione is in this class with me" "That's impossible because I saw her in my x class as well during that time." At least with information gathering you can just not interact with anyone if you truly keep secret. You could be investigating dozens of locations worldwide at the same time and then eventually once all iterations of you have used the time turner to go back in time, you'll end up with one you that has 12x the information that you would have had had you not used the time turner.
5:03: When he says that with luck two inocent lives can be saved he didn't talk about Buckbeak. He knows that he survived already, since he was there when the Griff disappeared and the executioner hacked a pumpkin into pieces instead. So it's just about Sirius being a potential second survivor.
Ooh! You guys should make the series, "What if the trio kept the time-turner?" It would be imteresting to see how such a powerful item would affect the story when, as you explain, time travel can't change the past.
It wouldn't affect the story because what happened always happened.... did you not understand?...
@UnfazedPhoenix I'm sorry, I meant how it would affect the story if the characters could use it to their advantage going forward, such as being in two places at once. Though you can't change the past with these time travel rules, it still has innumerable applications (which would be quite useful to three mischievous teens fighting a war against a dark lord).
Or "what if they had one as far back as the '91-'92 school year?" When/why would they need to use it in books 1-2, for example? Of course, at least in the main story the trio would only be able to have it for 5 years- but what would make them skip the Time Room entirely in Order? *That's* the *only* way they'd be able to have it available in the '96-'97 and '97-'98 school years, as Hermione explains in HBP (scene where they get back their OWL reports)!
@@trevorjackson7054 It wouldn't because everything that happens always happens. From a book writing standpoint, it would potentially give us as readers more context, but that's all. However, it would be cool to see different perspectives. It would ultimately make the story too convoluted. Still a fun idea ❤️
@@wyattstevens8574 @wyattstevens8574 everything that happens always happens. It wouldn't do anything except overly complicate the story. They aren't going to give 11 year olds time turners.
I am so glad that you got this right. Ever since Prisoner came out I’ve been hearing people ask “Why don’t they use time turners more? They can fix every problem.” and it is so infuriating because as you explained time turners are incapable of fixing any problems because any problems that exist are problems that you didn’t fix when you used the time turner otherwise they wouldn’t have been problems in the first place.
I think the biggest thing I learned this video is that J is one of those rare players who's actually good at bounce
How do time turners work? Easy. Go watch the cursed child.
The answer is "not like that"
If I could save time in a bottle- I mean necklace
I've been listening to that song so much this week!
@@SuperCarlinBrothersIs it because of Agatha??
The fact that they gave a time device to Hermione just to take more clases Will never not be funny 😂😂😂😂😂
Its the only way Bill was able get some many Newts lol
@@tomcat124usnot just bill, percy, and barty crouch jr too...
@@tomcat124usI think you made a typo there. It's written "nudes".
I believe Dumbledore just wanted to see what would happen, lol. He's just an old man who likes having fun.
the even more funny part is that despite using a time turner to go to more classes hermione still didnt get 12 owls on her owl exams, whilst percy did, wonder how did that🤔
It’s pretty simple. It’s the frie becoming his own grandpa/ futurama timetravel where everything happened because it was meant to happen
Wow. A reference to Futurama AMD Doctor who in the same comment section? In a Harry Potter comment section no less? I'm in nerd heaven
"How does time travel work in Harry Potter?"
Magic😎
Ending up killing yourself in the future and having to live with the thought of an inescapable death by your own hands until it inevitability happens sounds like an awesome idea for a movie. Someone more talented and less lazy than me plasma write that
00:27 I often tell people my favourite time-travel movie is Harry Potter 3 😋
With time travel everything that happens already happened... Except in the Cursed Child where Voldemort has a baby and Cedric is a death eater
If time travel in the Harry Potter world is predetermined, that means Cursed Child can't happen, so let's just go with that.
Talking about the whole free will part. I don’t think it’s so much that the characters are forced to perform the actions that they had already done, it’s more that those are the choice they made and will always make. The future and past versions of Harry are identical and, when given the exact same situation, think identically and make identical choices.
When Harry casts the patronus, he makes the choice to cast it. From his perspective that’s his free will to cast it or not. But every version of him is going to choose to cast it because they all have the exact same thought processes
Shouldn’t lupin have seen 2 versions of Harry and hermione when he was looking at the map? They were pretty close to themselves when they went down into the tunnel
He was too distracted
The map has a tendency to only reveal the names of hidden people at plot appropriate moments. I imagine this is part of the magic of the map- and as such, it has a cooldown period. So it had just spat out the whole Sirus and Pettigrew thing, it wasn't going to hand out another plot reveal for at least a year! 🤣🤣
"A circle has no beginning"
Harry being able to cast the corporeal patronus because he's already done falls in the same category as his meeting with Dumbledore at King's Cross in limbo. I'm pretty sure he isn't given any truely new information, "Dumbledore" just puts everything into context and a new perspective for him to see more clearly. It neatly plays into Harry's biggest strength being his powerful instincts.
Man, Harry is actually such a cool guy!
What Doesn‘t make sense is That you are Not allowed to speak to yourself because as Hermione says you would Go insane because you don’t know what is going on
Nur if you would know of time turners and maybe even have access to Thema you would know what is going on
Like of Hermione would have talked to herself during poa her present and past self would have known about time turners, so she couldnt harm herself
I was thinking about that too. Only way to meet yourself in the past, is if you already had.
She could have become her own study partner....imagine, she meets up every night with a version of herself who already took the test. "No- don't bother focusing on that section, there aren't any questions on the test in it. But this bit here really provides context for one of the essay questions."
Really great stuff guys. The work you put into these videos for our entertainment doesn’t go unappreciated. Keep it up!
I always found it incredible that Dumbledore saw that Buckbeak had been saved in the past, but he realized that it was through his advice from the future that led to Buckbeak's saving in the past.
Omg yes!!!! I'm so excited for the tour! I thought I had missed my chance when I didn't go to the East Coast shows
5:17 I would have worded it as "Definitely not, because they haven't lived through those events yet as their *younger* selves, and thus to *close* this loop, they have to go back in time in order to complete the mission in the first place"
Off topic from video. What if you guys did a series about all of the golden trio being in different houses, Harry in Slytherin, Ron in Hufflepuff and Hermione in Ravenclaw.
@@xarenanotmyrealname4134 YES!
Remember that the time travel between movie and book is very different, in book when you travel through time you also travel through space relevant to the position you used to be, thus from the hospital wing they travel to the entrance hall where they were three hours ago, but in the move they travel through space relevant only to where they currently are, going from hospital wing to hospital wing, which means they still travel through space for as the earth rotates the spacial coordinates of the hospital wing changes. If they were stationary, they would most likely end up somewhere in the air.
The type of time travel we see and read about in POA is called self-consistent time travel
I absolutely agree. Which makes the scene in which Dumbledore orders Harry and Hermione to travel back in time and "possibly save two lives" particularly exciting. At this point, i.e. in the first timeline, Dumbledore already knows that Buckbeak has escaped. He was there. Was he somehow able to magically sense that someone in the area was time traveling and drew the right conclusions?
I always thought that keen eyed Dumbledore spotted Harry and Hermione hiding at Hagrid's. In the movie, they lean into this- as Dumbledore has a moment where he pulls the Minster's attention in a different direction, while Harry and Hermione duck out of sight. In the book, I think Dumbledore calls Fudge back to sign the paperwork, preventing him from looking out the window. Then, when Dumbledore speaks to the kids at the Hospital wing, he can gather that they have no idea that Buckbeak is still alive, figures out on his own that the Time Turner was involved, and then drops the suggestion to Hermione with the knowledge that at least half the plan should work.
The funny thing is that Dumbledore already new that Buckbeak had been saved when he tells harry and Hermione to save him
Right- " *multiple* innocent lives... "
The Ravenclaws put it very well already: A circle has no beginning. I think of this a lot when I watch the show Dark as well.
And thats why cursed child could not possibly be canon, because it breaks all these laws
13:16 I think in this situation, it would be similar to how it happened in the books. That past you would accidentally kill future you but not be aware of it at all, and then would go on not knowing the danger they are in until it was too late.
Marvel Snap partnership is the BIGGEST of big times for the SuperCarlinBros. I've never seen J so excited for an ad read, his mustache was quivering with excitement
I love the idea of the Time-Turner being used as a tool to experience things from a different point of view rather than a device changing things
12:11 out of context it sounds like their trying to stop a wedding
Speak now or forever hold your piece because a time turner won't help you
It doesn’t violate the bootstrap paradox, it is the bootstrap paradox.
Your content is exceptionally unique!
12:33 i've always interpreted this as like, you didnt see yourself in the past, so yout cant interact with yourself in the future, after you travel, so if you try to do so, something is going to happen to prevent it, and that something could be you dying
What I like about the 'more than one innocent life' line is that Harry and Hermione think that the 'one' is referencing Sirius and it takes them a while to arrive at Buckbeak being the 'more', but it is actually the other way around. Dumbledore already knows Buckbeak is saved, since he was there for the planned execution, and he hopes they will be able to save Sirius as well.
I think it should probably also be mentioned that HP Time Travel isn’t (or doesn’t seem to be) one those “meet/touch your past/future self you die/seize to exist/cause a black hole” types of time travel
You shouldn’t interact with you past self because when you were you’re past self you didn’t meet your future self and (as J has explained) what didn’t happen the first go round won’t happen the second.
But if you ARE confronted by your Future Self then you DO have to talk to your Past Self when you use the Time Turner and go back in time.
Make sense?
What if your past self killed your future self without even knowing who they had killed? Then you would want to go back to prevent your past self into killing someone just to end up being killed by your past self
The fancy term for this version of time travel is called a "closed loop " or a "clausal Loop", the best way I was explained to about it was this: Imagine the turn of events is a roller coaster with a loopdy loop in the middle, as you go forward on the roller coaster u reach the point where ur cart goes through a loop big enough that passes across the part of the ride you have already been on and comes out the other side continuing to the next section of the ride. The cart is you passing through time, the ride itself is the passage of time, and the loop is you using the time turner to go back past the part of time you have already been through. This roller coast ride will never change, the loop on the ride itself will always be there, and you yourself in the cart will always go through that loop.
Another term: it (i.e. the time travel) operates under the "Novikov Self-Consistency Principle"
As the great Kingsley said - J's got style
The fun part about time travel, and probably the most important concept, is that effect can come BEFORE the cause.
Am I crazy or is the closing statement "I'll see you in another life brother" a call to Desmond from Lost?
Can you look into my theory about how both harry and neville are the chosen one at the same time. Like the prophecy wasnt pointing to only one being the chosen one it was pointing to both, seeing as it still applies to neville and obviously applies to harry, as well as the fact that they would need each other either way. Harry needed neville to kill the snake for him, and neville would still need harry to die because he's a horcrux.
14:54 its like the prophecies . Its not like harry would be the chosen one no matter what voldemort did. But the choices voldemort will make of his free will will lead to harry being the chosen one
It comes down to commitment. If they didn't save them or made no effort to that would also create a paradox. Pretty sure Rick and Morty did it too in the Christmas alien snake episode.
I think it's important to remember that by the time Dumbledore tells Harry and Hermione to go back in time, Dumbledore has already witnessed Buckbeak's absence and apparent escape. He probably had deduced that something was awry, but made no hint of it to Harry and Hermione that Buckbeak was already 'spared' from his point of view. When it comes to Sirius, it seems he was legitimately unaware (though likely suspected), but with Buckbeak he is outright acting so as not to give away unnecessary information.
Do you think the reason Dumbledore came up with the idea to send Harry and Hermione back in time is because during the course of the events he saw 2 separate versions of Harry and Hermione on his own version of the Marauders map and realised someone would have to give them the idea? I know it's not canon that he has a map but we do know he always knows what's going on in Hogwarts and it's safe to guess he has one.
Completely not talking about the play is great. Great show, but to us who love HP we dont talk about cursed child. It doesnt exist because it breaks its own rules. Its just a fanfiction to us lol
I love circular time travel. By far the neatest
The section being described at time stamp 13:20 (aprox) is exactly what happened to The Master in DW. The prime minister of England version of The Master runs into Missy on an alien space ship. They kill each other. PM version uses a weapon that prevents regeneration from happening, then regenerates into Missy.
Same thing being described. Future self killed by past self.
The one gripe I have with HP time travel is that it's not clear why the timeline of Harry saving himself played out instead of the one where he just loses his soul, which also wouldn't have a paradox. The best solution to this problem I've come up with is that harry getting kissed would actually cause a paradox, maybe because Dumbledore would take the time turner and save him, although it still kinda bothers me that it's not clear why Harry saving himself was the solution to the paradox
Hmm interesting. Based on this video wouldn't Harry always be kissed akin to how J explains if Sirius got kissed
I have a sneaking suspicion that the laws governing time can be broken. Instead of a new timeline, however, the time traveller is cursed somehow, and everything gets screwy. Time itself starts to break. Thats when you call in theUnspeskake..p
7:02 was nobody else expecting Ben to show up and shout, "That was you!?"?
I feel like this further proves that the curse child is just not canon
The wild thing is that the pre-destination effect of going back in time with the time turner actually puts you at great risk. No matter what, you can’t change the past, so to the extent you are set on attempting to, it will always fail. Past you can’t die because past you eventually needs to reach the point where they can use the time turner to go back in time BUT present you who has already gone back in time is 100% at risk of dying, especially if that death is necessary to prevent the alteration of the past.
I think this explanation is part of the correct explanation, but they’re wrong that it’s impossible to change anything. I think that for the most part, time will unravel in the way we see in PoA, and this explanation is a perfectly apt explanation for why/how. But I don’t think time is as immutable as Jay says. I think that time WANTS events to always unfold the same, and it’s elastic enough that if you push against it, it’ll give, but ultimately snap back. But if you FORCE yourself against it, that elasticity can only stretch so much; there IS a breaking point, and if you reach it, THAT’S when you get into terrible consequences. For example, if Harry had shrugged Hermoine off and gone for his cloak, Snape would have spotted him and most likely altered events to the point that Harry wouldn’t have been in position to cast his Patronus. And THAT’S the situation that McGonagall told Hermoine about how people have killed themselves while meddling with time.
Heyyy brotherrrs!! Huge fan of all your channels, and I already have tickets for Tampa!! Anyway, I was watching CoS the other day and was at the part where Tom is explaining that he preserved the memory of his younger self in the diary, and it got me to thinking. If Tom put that memory into the diary, and the diary was destroyed, does that mean Voldemort no longer remembers that he framed Hagrid? And what if there were other important memories stored in the diary, like the Slughorn memory? I think he would believe them to be safe, seeing as how the diary itself would have to reveal the information. I've always wondered why Voldemort would let Slughorn stay alive, seeing as he is the only person that knows his secret, but if voldi prime no longer has that memory, it could explain it. Young Tom riddle also understands the power of memories and how they can be used against you, seeing as how he altered the memory's of the people he crossed.
Gambit is one of my cards of choice in Marvel Snap, combined with anything that makes it repeat. I haven't played the game in months but it was so fun when I did.
I love how Azkaban has the least amount of Dumbledore content, but it feels like he knew everything going on
Random question.
Anyone know why in the Order of the Phoenix, there is no ministry security and no order member on guard the night Harry goes after seeing the vision of Sirius?
"Our being here doesn't alter history Raziel, we have always met here." - Kain, Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2
Quick explanation: you could view time like a shoelace. Without time travel, time moves in a straight line. If you loop the path you take back on itself, then the path you’re taking is your first experience of it; but you could view the bigger picture of everything happening together from the outside. A shoelace only follows one path from point A to B, but if you loop it back on itself correctly; then the view from the outside shows a section with a knot that comes out the other side
I love your content so much 🖤 I've been watching you for yearsss
HEY BROTHER! love these theories
In mlp:fim s5e25-26, we are shown how different timelines / parallel universes are created. Which is different to what happens when harry and hermione use the time turner.
11:54 - I get this, but then why does Dumbledore say more than one life can be saved? It plays out like he means Buckbeak and Sirius, but by the time they use the time turner buckbeak was already saved. So if you’re saying they needed to use time turner right then before Sirius potentially got the kiss (because everything remains as it ever was) then why did they go all the way back to save buckbeak? That moment in time already happened, he wasn’t killed, by these rules they shouldn’t need to help him cause they’d be unable to affect his outcome
My guess would be that he was able to identify that they were the reason for buckbeaks disappearance and therefore pointing them in that direction was necessary
@@justriskit4423In other words, "... both have been saved- just... it was current you who saved both! Do it- and BTW, Hermione, 9:00 is a late enough destination. Go back to then."
@@wyattstevens8574 I don’t think he knew about Sirius yet but essentially yes, he was able to piece together how it would all play out
For anyone who didn't catch the Bill & Ted reference when he was talking about the bootstrap paradox, here's one from Back To the Future: "Johnny B. Goode!" (just put Berry in the place of Mozart/Beethoven, and that in place of whatever symphony he was talking about)
Deliciously confusing but confusingly clear, thank you
I can recommend the German mystery series “Dark”. The time travel mechanics here are based on the same principle. One of the characters there says the appropriate sentence “You are not free in what you do because you are not free in what you want”. Even if you try to prevent things, it can happen that you trigger them in the first place. and because they have happened, the future self then wants to prevent them. And this triggers them....
I spent the entirety of this video being ridiculously confused over the concept of time travel 😂 It’s just this circle or loop of confusion
@9:20 J finally nails Hagrid's accent. Didn't end up sounding like a pirate!!
One thing that was mentioned on TTGD that I found helpful was when Hermione fell asleep and missed a class. (I don't remember the chapter off the top of my head.) She couldn't use the time turner to go back and attend the class, because she already missed it the first time around, therefore she will always miss it. If she had woken up on her own and gone back, then she never missed class, and Harry and Ron would never find her sleeping and wake her up.
just as a quick aside, i'm not sure if it's an issue but i would probably put a seizure warning before going through all those super quickly flashing images like you did at the start of the video. If it is an issue for anyone watching that's kind of a bad move to just throw in like this without warning.
It’s been so long since I’ve watched a video on this channel the mustache jump scared me 😂😭
Hi Ben!
Good video!
The idea of “what happens in the past always already happened” in time travel actually was also used in the five kingdoms books from Brandon Mull! So when you talked about it in through the griffin door, I knew *exactly* what you were getting at!
"Hairier than Hagrid's best suit" might be my new favorite phrase
I love time travel stuff & Prisoner is 1 of my favourite Harry Potter films. (Haven't got round to reading the books.) The best example of this sort of time loop I've seen is The Terminator. If Kyle Reece & the T800 didn't go back in time, John Connor & Skynet would never exist to send them back. Another brilliant example is the Star Trek: The Next Generation 2-parter Time's Arrow. Data's head ends up 500 years older than the rest of his body & Mark Twain's watch is infinitely old with no origin point. I've tried explaining stuff like this to people who don't understand time travel before so I found it quite funny to see someone else trying to do it.
I think the loop only remains stable IF you avoid paradox. It’s not so much predestination as that if you don’t follow the “predestined” path and try to change things, you will glitch time and Bad Things will happen, probably but not exclusively to you, which is why is so heavily prohibited.
The way I make sense of it is this: You only experience the current time-space linearly (also known as your world line, the intersection of your position in the three spatial dimensions with your position in time). You can not change that experience, and you can't go back to that world line. Even if you can go back in time to the same time, you are physically standing in a different space, even if you are standing right next to where you were in the initial world line. At best, if you revert back to the same time and place, you're never actually in the same world line, you're just parallel to it, and any perceived "change" would have already been accounted for when you experienced the initial world line.