A Family Tree of Roses: Rose Varieties Chart
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- Here's my attempt to sort out the relationships between the historic rose classes/families. I'm quite open to suggestions on how to improve the chart - or even corrections to the breeding information. I didn't see a chart like this one in my reference books - so I hope I haven't reinvented the wheel!
If anyone is interested in a print of the chart, here's a link to a reputable printing company with the design: www.redbubble.c...
Many thanks to @UsefulCharts and his tutorial on making charts like this one. I took some liberties, as it turns out roses are a pretty promiscuous lot - so I had to be a little arbitrary in places!
Photo Credits (all cropped square to fit):
Rosa x damascena, photo by David J. Strang used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license
Rosa 'La Belle Sultane', photo by Jean-Marc Pascolo used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Rosa alba, photo by Ausis used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Rosa ‘Old Blush’, photo by David J. Strang used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license
Autumn Damask, photo by Malcolm Manners used under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic License
Rosa centifolia, photo by Salicyna used under the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike 4.0 International license
Jacques Cartier rose, photo by Patrick Nouhailler used under the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike 2.0 Generic License
Rosa Park’s Yellow, photo by A. Barra used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Blush Noisette rose, photo by Anna reg used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Austria license
Reve d’Or rose, photo by Stan Shebs used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Baron Girod de l’Ain rose, photo by 1971markus@wikipedia.de used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license
Rosa Polyantha Rouge, photo by T. Kiya used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license
Rosa Soleil d’Or, photo by A. Barra used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Veilchenblau rose, photo by Spedona used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Rose Bonica, photo by Андрей Корзун (Kor!An) used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Ballerina rose, photo by Javier martinlo used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Rose Queen Elizabeth, photo by T. Kiya used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license
Rose Renaissance, photo by Mogens Engelund used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Stanwell Perpetual rose, photo by Stan Shebs used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license
Rose Rosaraie de l’Hay, photo by T. Kiya used under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license
Absolutely brilliant. I had to read many books to understand this complex relationship between various classes of roses and here, in a 17 mins video, Jason summarizes everything in a very easily comprehendible way. God bless you.
Definitely I’m so proud of you, it’s a real pleasure to see how well versed you are on roses. It’s a joy and pleasure to listen and learn from you. I’m a senior who is delighted on learning and particularly on roses. Never thought this knowledge would come to me. Thank you 🙏
My pleasure!
We have to be forever grateful for those who have kept track and continue to keep track of the history of the Rose. It’s quite a WOW! Factor to see how far back they are recorded and the breeding is fascinating 💚 Thank you!
My pleasure Cynthia!
Jason,
You might consider adding the 'Memorial Rose', (r. wichuraina) on your visual.
Rosa wichuraina is an important and intrumental asian rambling species from the far east. It's the ideal parent in the historical development of both vigorous, hardy climbers and ramblers suited for northern climates. Named after the German botanist, Dr. Max Wichura, who brought it back to Germany from Japan before 1866. The US got ahold of it during the late 19th Century. New hybrids were thus created in both Europe and the United States right up into the 20th century.
Keep in mind that this special rambler is considered to be the predecessor of 'Max Graf' and its sucessors, r. kordesii, L-83 and the Agriculture Canada series roses. So I think r. wichuraina has earned a place on your visual, lol! 🌹
OMG this video is absolutely extraordinary, you have explained such a complex subject in 17 minutes, Thank you so much
Wow, what a lot of research and effort you went into to create this superb chart!! Thank you Jason!
So glad you liked it. Thanks for the feedback!
Great video! Never seen such a well-explained breakdown!!!
Thanks Bob
Wow, that’s over my head Jason I only have 4 rose bushes in my yard and they’re doing well. I’m impressed with your knowledge of roses 🌹
Yeah, this kind of rose geekery is only for the hardcore few. I'm working on a more widely useful version focused on common garden rose types. Thanks!
It wasn't over my head I knew of these roses and their origins but the chart brought it all together.
Thanks JoAnn - I so glad you found it useful.
Many thanks and congratulations for you amazing job here!! This is what RUclips videos should look like!
Thanks a great video with a flow chart. Gives a nice overview of the Rose family tree.
Purchased a large print to say thanks for this and many other awesome videos as I stumble my way into this hobby. Cheers and thanks.
My pleasure. It's really good to know you've found this (and other videos) useful!
Great job! I am more clear in understanding my roses.
Thanks. I'm glad you found it useful.
Mr. Yeom, what's the name of the rose in your thumbnail? Mine is Henry Fonda.
I loved this! Thank you so much. It gives the history a structure and narrative that is most useful. And your remarks about the David Austin roses was really illuminating. People often denigrate these roses, and I have tried not to know how they come to such a critical stance. Now I understand. Also, to let us understand how the climbers fit, or don’t it, is also useful. Maybe a varieties list under these categories could include an asterisk or something to indicate the climbing gene in that rose.
Thanks Pat. I did hesitate on the inclusion of the English roses (because they don't fit in neatly with the class definitions) but of course, what a disservice it would be to exclude the world's largest rose breeding program with all of its innovation just because Mr. Austin didn't paint within the lines. The classifications will sort themselves out - as they have in the past. The Hybrid Perpetual class must have seemed a lazy "lumping" of all the new China hybrids at the time. Thanks for the suggestion on the climbers. Maybe I'll find a way to indicate them on a future version.
Never heard of the Austin roses being denigrated. I do always hear how they are lauded throughout the rose breeding world as well they should be. They are of exceptional quality and thankfully have brought back fragrance to roses.
Fascinating. Thank you. I have always wanted to see this type of charting. I have mapped my rose garden by name, year bred and type. This has been very interesting and useful. Thank you for your hard work. Looking forward to more of your videos.
Thanks Donna
Thanks for this video Jason! Shared with my Rose and Garden Enthusiasts group and purchased the art grade diagram to support.
Thanks so much Tania!
What an interesting chart and video. It's really a great "Roses 101" for those of us just getting into the hobby of rose gardening. And thanks for including David Austin's English Roses...He really was a visionary in the rose world and his roses are sturdy, stable, and as predictable as roses can be; not to mention the lovely scents and huge variety of specimens. I know some "purists" aren't a fan but they do indeed perform well for less work than some other types.
Thanks for your input on the Austin roses - I've grown some of the classics, and I like them enough that I'll be adding some of the newer cultivars. They've built a great business out of their roses, and deserve credit for it. You can't have a great breeding program without the sales to support it.
I have heard talks on different types of roses over the decades, however watching this series and this video, especially brought every thing together. I applaud you for your thoroughness and presentation of this superior plant! You are a artesian well of horticulture. It must have taken some time to assemble and formulate all of this information. I am on several gardening groups on Facebook and frequently drop your name😃 when roses are mentioned. I hope you don’t mind. I prefer to buy from growers myself, not snobbish just like to swim thru the options growing. Thank you again.
Fascinating. Thank you. I have about 154 different roses in my garden of all types - interesting to know their ancestry.
My pleasure!
You answered my questions wrt the climbing roses. Perfect!
This is the most helpful resource to learn about roses. Thank you, your videos are amazing.
Well done Jason! Very informative and easy to follow...
Thanks... I appreciate the feedback!
Always so informative. I appreciate very much your detail on any of your subject matter.
Thank you Sky Z!
Thank you 🙏
Wow this would make a great learning aid for horticultural students my teacher tried recently to explain this to me it would make great visual aid. Thank you
My pleasure. Thanks for the feedback!
I had a rose probably from Barbados as i had bought my previous house from people who were heading home.. the color & the fragileness of the petals were something i have come across in india too .. fuchsia majenta deep pink & intricate flower, the fragrance so strong like no other.. i had moved it to a new location, it died.. i wasn’t that familiar with cuttings then.. i can’t find that rose anywhere in Britain.. it was just too special.. definitely a rose from abroad..i had to share my love for that particular one with you.. i miss it
Thanks!
It is an impressive work. Thanks!
Thanks Glicia - I'm glad you found it useful
Thank you Jason! Very informative! I’ve been digging into the history of Roses for a while, too. And I agree, the older records were less reliable, and roses are so ‘easy’ to hybrid (compare with orchids and other slow growling flowers), the whole family is almost as complicated as the citrus. But this is a very interesting topic. And to bring ‘English Roses’ as one group/class is a good idea. David Austin has been breeding them for more than 6 decades, and I think what he has achieved worths an important place in modern rose history, and some of his cultivars/varieties have already become parent roses for newer varieties.
I just wish rosarians can develop an atlas of the whole family tree and make a catalogue of it in an encyclopaedia way. 😜😜
Lindo essa tabela: muito informativa e com ilustrações. Um belíssimo trabalho que facilita entender melhor o histórico das rosas. Parabéns e obrigado.
very interesting, impressive research on the origin of roses. i was overwhelm with all the breeding and crossbreeding from china tea and old roses down to the english breeds.
Thanks Evelyn
Byzantine! It’s wonderful to see where my favorite garden babies sit in your map. Thanks
Back in the 90’s I considered going into rose genetics research, but the technology wasn’t there. I had grand visions of faster, directed breeding by finding markers for disease resistance or color shades etc. I should go see what is being done now. Probably not much, as it’s expensive, and the diversity of roses in the common marketplace is basically nil. As noted in another of your videos, people got the wrong impression of roses being formal, stodgy and requiring masses of bee-killing pesticides. Now all those wonderful hardy, loose, and informal beauties are confined to potted cuttings at nail order nurseries and farmers markets. The most disgusting example, found at nursery this year: the rise section had about 10 plants marked simply “red hybrid tea”. So sad.
Wow, that's a lot of work that u r doing the research on roses, thank u so very much 😇👍👍
I'm happy you found it useful!
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm 👍🌝 indeed
Returning to this great post to soak up a little more. I'd like to know more about the roses of the different dynasties of China - I wonder if there is an English translation of an Asian history of of roses...?
I've started my rose collection with David Austin Roses - and have a dozen of his bare root roses coming in spring 2021. I've got 2 acres to play with! I do appreciate his process and his product - I'm grateful for his life's contribution. Also, the David Austin catalog is really helpful with info on which are shade tolerant and what other plants to consider etc etc.
Now that I'm developing more of an interest in old roses and their times - I've ordered some books for some fun nerdy reading this winter
Love your posts - you are my main teacher on all things roses.
Yours truly Jennie
Thanks Jennie. It would be a real eye-opener to know some of the real history of Chinese roses. So much of the info I can find is just what filtered into the European rose trade.
This is some awesome information compact into a flow chart. Thanks!
that was fantastically useful - thank you so much!
As always, such a densely packed information video. Thank you. If you may, would you please make a video on how to minimize the production of blind shoots as much as possible anytime in the future. Im having a Jude the Obscure for 6 months now and she's a repeat flowering rose. Have given her the spot where he receives full sun everyday and regularly fed, alas still not flowers till this point, only blind shoots. Some source says blind shoots are caused by high daily fluctuations of temperature, other says they are caused by low temperature combined with low light intensity. But my Jude the Obscure experiences neither any two of the conditions. Thank you.
Thanks. I wish I could help more with the blind shoots, but I think you have about as much insight as I do: the reasons a rose will throw "blind" wood are not very well understood. I found one (quite old) study which correlated blindness with low levels of nitrogen - but I can imagine this would also be the case in plants with poorly established roots. I will say that if 'Jude' is a new planting, I'd suggest some patience. I've seen newly planted roses behave "out of character" in their first year or two before they've "settled in". I hope that's all it is.
excellent, lots of research and hard work showcasing in video
Shared your video on a FB group of roses, I hope you don't mind
Of course I don't mind, and thank you!
Thank you!
Amazing video. Very very helpful.
Thanks!
Very interesting, good work.
This is a great video and I also enjoy your videos on the old roses! Another good idea for a video would be to go a little further into detail about the many species of wild roses that predate the oldest classes (:
Thanks Jarred. I'll note the idea for a future video.
thank you!
Fantastic video, thanks a lot.
Excelente vídeo. Ultra informative. Thank you from England :)
So happy you found it helpful
I am not a rose geek, but I do have a few rose bushes that bloom most of the year. Two of my roses I have no idea what they are called because they did not have a descriptive tag, but the flower was so pretty that I bought the plant anyway. I did not know roses were being grown in gardens way back in Roman and Persian times. I thought roses were something that were developed since the 1700s.
this is so interesting!
I subscribed to you bc of this video. Good work on research!
Thanks Caroline - I'm glad you found it useful
This was really helpfull, thank you!! All the best for 2020!
Thanks, and a happy new year to you as well!
Wonderful chart and walk through, thank you. I have seen a couple of other charts but they seem too simplistic or overly complex. I never knew climbers did not have a special heritage. Few rose growers explain this. Can you name a few that can be trained into climbers? Thanks again
Thanks Henry - 'Iceberg' (floribunda) has a climbing sport. 'Sally Holmes' (hybrid musk). 'Laura Ford' (miniature). 'Zephirine Drouhin' (Bourbon). 'Complicata' (Gallica x). 'Aloha' (hybrid tea)'Souv. du Docteur Jamain' (hybrid perpetual).
I really enjoy your videos. It's nice to have a chronogical visual of this complex history.
Portlands are an amazing bunch that seem to revel in their own interesting categories (as per dates and characteristics); the biferas, "tous-les-mois", portlands and trianons, where some varieties may fit into more than just one. Also the distinction between the true portlands (damask perpetuals) vs the ones reputed to have China ancestry.
I wonder where the white rugosa (Rosa rugosa alba) originates from! Any idea?? Never found an answer to that. I doubt it would be a sport of the species, r. rugosa, but perhaps a seedling? Or an independent variant?
IMO, David Austin roses are bred for warm climates and the UK. As a group in general, there is definite emphasis on exceptional flower quality but lacking in plant architecture and disease resistance; they require time to mature. Aside from a few exceptional cultivars, Austins are best planted in groups for overall effect. This stands in contrast to many other spectacular shrub varieties that make garden worthy specimens from simply just one plant. I recall Mr. Austin stating in one of his books that he would have approached it differently if he were to do it over again, lol. Hindsight's 20/20 🌹
Thank you
This is fantastic Jason, really good work. I am a current student at the SOPH, New York Botanic Garden. So I have a couple of questions that perhaps you can help me with.
You have the small orange box giving way to the wild ancestors. Now I have to preface saying I am focusing on increasing biodiversity of insects primarily with North American Native wild roses. So because roses have been bred to death with so many families, I’ve narrowed down about 4 wild roses that fit the niche of what I’m going for: Rosa virginiana, Rosa satigera, Rosa natida, and Rosa palustris. however….. after growing my noisettes and bourbons….. it IS hard to feel like I’m missing out.
My questions: Why are wild roses cultivars or nativars of our indigenous wild roses not a thing in the trade ?! Literally I could only come up with ONE variety of Rosa Virginia called Rosa virginiana var. plena hort. And I Ofcourse cant find anyone who has it. Is it because there’s not an interest commercially to do such a thing?
I want to stay true to the 150 species of Lepidoptera that depend and use our wild roses as host species. Could you maybe explain why nativars aren’t a thing with wild roses? Also maybe a video on wild rose species all together ? ( if you find it beneficial for the channel ofcourse)😂
Just wanted to thank you again for the wealth of knowledge you pack into these short and sweet videos. Also the vast array of heritage roses I now have. Please stop showing me new ones! I’m
Running out of room! Thank you again
Thanks. Part of the issue with breeding the wild species is about their ploidy (# of copies of the full "rose" set of DNA). It's not a super easy topic to explain quickly, so if you're not familiar, you may have to look it up in more detail elsewhere. Some wild roses are diploid (2N)(N=7) - and many of the modern cultivated hybrids are tetraploid (4N). When those ploidy numbers don't match up, it makes them less compatible for breeding. The roses you listed are typically diploid (with some variability), so while they can easily be crossed with certain other wild species, it's not as easy to introduce the color, petal count, fragrance, form or garden habit of the modern hybrids or even the old garden roses of Europe. I know you weren't specifically asking about cross breeding them into the modern roses, but IMO it may be the thing that holds breeders back from investing time into these wild species. The cultivated roses have a couple thousand years of selection and a few hundred years of actual breeding into them already. "Starting from scratch" with the wild roses when you can't easily bring in the desired genetic characteristics - well it means slow progress, and really you'd have to manage expectations: where would you hope to find a R. palustris with large, showy, fragrant, long-lasting flowers in a wide range of colors and a tidy garden habit? It's not there in the base genetics. So the best you could hope for is a slightly improved selection of the wild population. For most gardeners (and therefore nursery growers) this just isn't a sexy proposition. Don't get me wrong. Many local nurseries here (on the west coast) offer R. woodsii, R. nutkana and other straight species, but usually with an eye towards native replanting requirements of highways projects and the such. Within the breeding community, some of these have been used in the foundation of the Canadian hardy roses, but I'm not sure that program is ongoing.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm wow, that makes total sense. It would take 100s and 100s of years to begin scratching the surface to get our wild species roses to : achieve a flower color and shape of a bourbon rose, the fragrance of a Scot’s rose, and the color of a hybrid tea. AND the bloom cycle of a perpetual bloomer.
Well, in my humble opinion, it would be nice to start somewhere ! But really I was just talking about other wild species types being crossed with another. Surely you could then add other modern rose cultivars and just focus on one trait at a time perhaps ?
Thanks for taking the time again, love your channel so much!
Thanks!!! ❤
Amazing
I need this chart!
Hello Jason- I belong to a Shakespeare group and we were discussing the roses referenced in the War of the Roses. And I made this statement-
"...And the Red Rose of Lancaster was almost certainly
Rosa Gallica Officinalis
One thing to note is that the so-called Red Rose is really not a hue that we moderns would characterize as red but almost more of a pink shade.
The blood red rose we associate with clumsy courtship was a relatively late development and had to await the introduction of Chinese rootstock in the 19th Century."
I recall reading that somewhere but now I can't find the source, and I wonder if I was actually accurate there?
Yes, your ID of the Red Rose of Lancaster is exactly what I've heard in rose lore (in multiple books), and is also what's given on the Wikipedia article. As for the true red color - also exactly right. Even the darkest of the ancient European roses skew towards pink or purple.
My daughters white hybrid tea got rosette disease last year. Cut it down but couldn’t get the root out. This year the rose sent up about twelve small canes and one has bloomed with a red/mauve rose with few petals. Definitely has thorns. My daughter is so upset that her white roses turned red.
My guess would be it's the Dr. Huey rootstock.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm WOW! I am so appreciative that you answered! That is amazing!! Thank you so much! You are so cool!
I think I have a polyantha rose and last year I had some stems that came out of the polyantha that are single beautiful coral/peach bloom that looks like the hybrid tea you are showing. Now, I don't know much about growing roses, but I'm learning from you. Is this normal? Is it something someone else did to it or will it do this naturally?
Hi Melanie. There could be a few different issues. Some roses are grafted, so if a stem emerges from below the graft union and the flowers look different, that could be a stem from the rootstock. I'm not sure that's the case here. A second possibility is that some roses actually are quite variable in color and form of their blooms depending on temperature and other environmental factors. One of my ramblers can have either deep apricot buds, or just barely beige, depending on the year. Petal counts vary as well. There are limits to this. If the polyantha in question is supposed to be dark red, and then bears a bright yellow flower instead, that's not just variation based on environmental conditions. Finally, there's such thing as a "sport" - where a portion of a plant has a spontaneous mutation or reversion, a genetic difference which could effect flowering or other characteristics.
Jason, thank you for assembling this chart plus walking us through and summarizing the various connections between rose types/species. Would you mind providing a few of your sources for this information should I, or anybody else, like to read a bit further? (As a scientist I am always interested in reading primary and/or review literature but it is helpful to have a few places to start.) Thanks, I really enjoy and appreciate your content.
Hi Dianne - thanks! My diagram is based mainly on what could charitably called a "folk history" of roses - the stories that are repeated from one author to the next, but not always verified by a primary source. Peter Beales is a bit more credible IMO and I took the outline of my chart mainly from his work. I also referenced Martyn Rix ("The Quest for the Rose" and other excellent books). Dr. Peter Boyd on the Scots Roses. I filled in what else I could from Wikipedia, rose society writers, etc. so I'm sure there are some errors along the way! Anyway, that should get you started.
Thanks! I’ll look into those.
I like the video. Can we have you chart send to us?for research purposes. Thanks
Hi Jason, mate got a question please.
On one of my rose bushes, as I am collecting the hips for seeds, I noticed that there are 2 different sized hips.
Are there male and female flowers? And if so will the contents of a smaller male flower produce a seedling.
Hi Darryl. Roses have both male and female parts on the same flower - not on separate flowers. Different sized hips may be because of better pollination (more seed development) or even just physiological (one stem got more energy than the other when it was developing).
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm thanks mate, youre a legend.
Very useful where in the world are you?
Hi Gail. Western Canada, pretty near Vancouver.
Thank you Jason 🙏 for such informative video.
Well how come there is no Roll of Indian Roses. In such great history of Roses.
Can you make special video about Indian Roses history
As we Indian have very little awareness about Roses. Bqz even those who sell Roses from Nursery or street side local seller, they just tell us which one is desi rose and which one is English Rose, we don't know more above all😂 so please think about it 🙏
Thank you
Thanks Vin ay - for your comments and the suggestion. I'll see if I can find out more about the roses of India. I know that there are some excellent modern breeders, but as for history, I take most of my knowledge from stories handed down through western rosarians.
Allegedly, Chinese breeders do not mention a miniature China rose. Possibly, Chinese breeders simply discarded miniature seedlings as undesirable.
Interesting!
Dear moderator,
I would like to ask for your permission to translate this video into Chinese and upload it to Bilibili. The video is very detailed and well-made, and I will properly credit the author. I will not generate any revenue from views.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
I agreed to let a company translate and post my videos on Bilibili - so far I haven't been very impressed by their efforts, but a deal is a deal.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Okay, I was just wondering because I saw that Bilibili didn't have any translations of these shows yet. But I appreciate your response：）
This should be in coursera 😅 i just started a rose collection and i have no idea what they're called
Hi I’ve got a rose school girl I would like to move it this year
When will the best time I could move and what should I do.
A in the cool time of early spring is probably the best. ruclips.net/video/AVNR8oK0OWE/видео.html
سلام
Thank you!