Thanks Steve for putting out awesome videos not many engin builders will go in depth to show how to do things and even when you have problems you still show the world it goes to show what a great and honest engin builder u are 🇺🇸🇺🇸
If ever there was a race car engine candidate for a Switchblade turbo charger upgrade… here it is. Steve I doubt you’ll even read this but if you do please look up Blaylock turbo chargers in Baxter Springs Ks. My friend Jim Blaylock patented a turbo charger modification for just this sort of issue. And they are making great strides in this design. It uses a simple mechanical mechanism fed off of boost that changes the internal volume inside the turbo charger turbine housing to act like a smaller turbo charger at lower RPM to spool quickly & then as boost increases, it opens up to flow more.
It doesnt make turbo smaller, it just makes turbine housing more restrictive. I dont know how something can be patented if it was found 40 years ago by someone else, and forgotten because it didnt work.
Yeah, I was about to say, that's just a VGT. Your friend may have patented a better way to achieve that result, but the idea isn't anything new. And as far as I know, with a VGT you don't necessary need a dump valve as you can control the boost pressure by changing the position of the vanes.
I like the rag over the wastegate outlet. Reminds me of when I was walking thru the MAZDA engine plant in Hiroshima Japan. This was in the mid-1980s. There were little kids’ toy pinwheels mounted on the backs of the computer controllers that ran the machining line. I asked the Mazda engineer I was working with what was up with the pinwheels. He said they were mounted behind the computer cooling fans. If the pinwheel was spinning the fan was working. If not, a passing employee would notify the millwrights that a repair team was needed. At Ford’s (& probably all other American engine plants) plants there was an electronic monitor on each machine. Cost comparison: 5 cents for.the pinwheel vs probably $50 for the electronic babysitter. Good on ya, Steve!
Back in the 80s when I was taught to drive a semi truck, that's when the old mechanical diesels could be made to run pretty easily if you knew what you were doing or knew someone who did.. anyway one thing that was taught after you turned the pump up was to plug the waste gate and man would those things come alive!!
Steve the thing is… we love how you let us in on your experiences! Other people will work out all the bugs off camera then show the polished footage. You and Kevin Smith really make information honestly. Keep it up
Man I love these videos. As someone with a love of big horsepower, but neither the space nor the money to build something myself, SME is like hanging out in your buddy's garage while he works. Brilliant.
That’s what 2 step is for or if rolling anti lag. It’s 2024 only places you see turbo lag is in diesel. Or someone who doesn’t know how to tune. But he is using a engine dyno you don’t use either of those so yes it take a second to build and literally just a second it’s building pretty fast
At the 56 minute mark you mulling over egate. If you want to improve boost response and get turbo spinning quickly, you need to cut the flow of air going into turbo inlet. Even bleeding off boost won't help. A vacuum cleaner screams when you block it. The noise you hear is the extra rpm it's doing because it's not able to grab air and move it. The turbo is the same. As it moves air it needs input from exhaust wheel to drive it. Air has mass and needs energy to move it. Kill the clean air getting to it, and it can't absorb energy by moving that air. It can, therefore, speed up more for the same exhaust flowing thru engine. Once you have it to the desired turbo rpm then let it eat air. It's counterintuitive.
Yet ANOTHER keyboard warrior. Jealousy is a terrible thing. I don't care what he does as long as it entertains me. (or you) Let that sink in. Cleetus did. All the way to the bank.
Ive seen guys send fuel and set spark on a couple cylinders to fire in the exhaust to spool the turbo up higher at lower rpm. I believe and have seen this hurt turbos and shorten lifespan and Gotta be good at sequential fuel and spark control to make sure its not too big of a boom but it will spool quicker. Idk how well it would work on such a large turbo but higher rpm the more pressure overlap in the exhaust from standard booms and booms in the exhaust, take that as you will. Timing is fun. Basically antilag but for building boost not maintaining.
Sir, I have been SO enthralled with your channel since learning more about the SMX from Sick Summer/Cleetus’ channel. I just had to say thanks for being so detailed, uploading long videos, and using awesome montage music 🎉
Engine air temperature is critical to making power. Gale Banks talks about it a lot with his boosted applications. I did not see air temps as part of the data set, so it might be smart to monitor the charge air temp for a clearer picture of what is happening.
Gale banks is talking about diesel, pro mod engines runs on alcohol that's the ticket for not running an intercooler the air charge will be cooled be the fuel nothing else is needed
Gale even talks about the affects of alcohol cooling when he takes a try at building a proper diesel for monster trucks, he even tried to run massive alcohol through his Dmax. I think Steve has even tried charge cooling on Methanol and it didn't help much. Iy comes down to more parts= more weight on the car, and more complex to he already crammed engine compartments.
The reason the turbo spools suddenly is because of the air pressure in the hot side (exhaust) not being high enough to force itself through the blades of the turbo. This results in little to no flow through the hot side (as pressure increases heat also builds more quickly) until enough pressure is achieved to begin flowing air through the hot side instead of building up pressure against it. Ways I can think of to mitigate this is having smaller runners to the hot side (so less volume of air is required to build enough pressure), making sure the turbo shaft spins as freely as possible, different turbo blade geometry, waste gate/bypass/dump/other valves on both sides of turbo, anti-lag systems, electric motors spinning the turbo (as demonstrated by one of the latest Porsche engines), etc. all of which may compromise certain areas of performance. ...But that's all just to say air bouncing off a fan doesn't spin it until that air begins to flow through the fan, if that makes sense, that's why the turbo lags the way it does. It's all about optimizing the turbo speed to hot side pressure ratio to minimize lag.
Thanks Steve for explaining your thought process as this goes along. I feel my understanding is helped immeasurably because my learning style is hands on, and you walking us through it as it happens makes me feel like I am trouble shooting too! Very entertaining! This is obviously a high quality organization!
I remember I think it was Stavtech on here and IG shared some rally tech where they take an additional throttle body and mount it in front of the turbo to create a vacuum within the compressor. Same concept of the wastegate just further pressure reduction into vacuum. Like how a vacuum cleaner speeds up when you block the inlet.
Prochargers are rampid in NoPrepKings due to the fact it is easier to tune and faster reaction that is right there with the Blower combos. Turbos are hard to tune but, once they are tuned they are hard to beat. Spell check in RUclips not that great... I meant rampant... thanx for the spell check lol.
You might find this info interesting ! It's called Rocket turbo anti lag ,there's a patent on it , it keeps your turbo spooled at low engine speeds , was used on Subaru rallye cars years ago , could possibly use on race cars
@@ruckus__no need to do a compound system with gas engines. You can’t put the boost to a gas engine that you can to a diesel,. Yiu can only add so much boost to a sparked fired engine before you have detonations issues that start melting things or breaking rods, you don’t detonation issues with diesel because in stead of spark you spraying the fuel in to get the ignition.
Since before WWII it has been known that turbochargers are able to recover waste energy from the exhaust stream, and so can somewhat more efficiently drive a turbocharger. Certainly a supercharger can have better throttle response, but for a given amount of power they require a more robust bottom end since the power to drive one comes directly as a load on the crank. Tradeoffs.
Turbo too big is a miserable thing to live with....but in a drag car they're using/abusing the torque converter to make one work. Cam selection would also be very different as back pressure on the turbo needs to be taken into account. If you have the same back-pressure as boost then the overlap doesn't matter, but when exhaust pressure is more than boost....overlap tends to blow exhaust into the chamber. On the street...a much smaller turbo would work a lot better.
Pete Harrell (sp?) had a nice video that talked about the additional difficulties in using a turbo in a drag car over a supercharger. There were some advantages with the supercharger, as boost is purely a function of RPM for most. Set the launch RPM, done.
Could slowing down the sweep speed on the dyno help? Response of engine as boost comes on is faster than the valve on the water brake can match perhaps.
The boost threshold on that big turbo is no joke. A smaller exhaust housing should help it spool up but then it might be too restrictive at higher RPM.
The blade design on the supercharger is critical to move air Dependent on the design parameters you design the turbine blades to move "x" volume of air at "y" rpm under "z" ambient pressure Taking rpm "y" *1,6 does not necessarily equate to volume "x" *1,6 at same ambient, it may only be "x"*1,35 etc So the sweet spot has a +- percentage tolerance of say "y" +10% overdriven or "y" -5% and that would be your efficiency range. By simply speeding up your blower does not necessarily equate a 1:1 correlation in speed increase and boost/volume efficiency. You may be getting a 1:0,8 ratio and generate a lot more heat doing it
I think that Professor Steve Morris will figure all this out eventually because he has to know. Thanks for taking us along on your journey. That Dyno and software is hiding the "rest of the story".
I'm pushing 60 years old and have been making my living as mechanic and shop owner since teenager. Been active drag racer and dabbled in other motor sports. I've been hard core old school and still competitive some what. You have really helped me learn and understand how it works and tune with more than my screw drivers, timing light, and reading plugs. Really enjoy your real deal the way it is. I've had some great combinations and way more not so great. Some I should have lit a stack of cash on fire to save time.
Could an engine dyno be used with the engine and trans combination the person is using and hook the dyno to the "driveshaft" out of the trans? Solves the problem of flashing converter and trans brake but at the same time I figure it would make more sense to just hub dyno it after install?
Steve did you think of using the type of boost control system that Mark Micki runs? No waste gates and boost is controlled by 2 blow off valves in the intake tube.
If you can use the dyno to hold the engine at launch rpm with the throttle wide open while pulling timing to build boost then start the pull maybe it would work?edit: nevermind i just heard the explanation lol
Hi @stevemorris I was wondering, you said billet blocks needed heat treatment while being machined. When you weld a block wouldn’t the welded part react differently (expand) or is the welding process enough of a heat treatment? And if not wouldn’t that be the reason why a repaired engine is less reliable?
I want to say I saw the video on eagles new motor from cleetus and I think it’s awesome to see the difference in a monster street car motor such as the smx and the proline hemi for essentially a pro mod track car and how they differ I want to say props to you and the job that you do to make a motor so powerful for the street and the engineering behind it
The 140mm T might be a slug at low rpm due to the exhaust back pressure. Until there's enough hot gas to move the impeller fast enough to do work, it can be a restriction. Some guys leave the waste gate open until they're making boost at whichever rpm the engine's exhaust really heats up the turbo.
Lean of Peak EGT mixture - do any tuners switch to that when a fuel limitation is reached? It seems like that could be a safe strategy to avoid peak temperature and pressure scenarios which could damage parts.. That might be a better alternative than just running into the red when there’s a problem. It assumes that the mixture of individual combustion events could be controlled by injector duty cycle, which I think is true, but might need to be checked out. Controllers might need some control logic. A related approach would be for the controller to start cutting duty cycle on some cylinders while increasing it on other cylinders. The reduction on some cylinders would result in more fuel being available for other cylinders. Main point is that lean mixture may only be dangerous to components when it results in peak EGT. And EGT drops once the mixture is continued to be leaned. And, lean mixture doesn’t necessarily result in misfire within a safe range of mixtures - so long as the spark is hot and provides enough chamber coverage.
blowers break alot, shake cars apart, and make a ton of low rpm power that can blow the tires off turbos make those problems go away but are a tuning nightmare lol
I'm not up with the intricacies of water brake dynos but am I correct in assuming an eddy current dyno might work better for this specific application of trying to spool such a large turbo?
So what does a procharged SMX sound like preferably not with zoomies not a big fan would be sweet if it was though duels out the back but doesn’t seem practical if you happen to have any videos or know of one setup with single side exits. I know turbos tend to quite engine noise would love to hear one.
I understand your theory of the relief of the back pressure on the turbo. Kind of like revving up a engine and dumping the clutch to try and do a burnout. But at 0psi the engine is consuming as much air as the turbo is passing anyway. Any positive charge pressure would also create more exhaust flow?
"Caution" - @ 79 I'm still learning - Know it is tough to find time, don't stop info in a entertaining way It's the Steve Smile e boost controller sorta what F1 uses the MGU-H What are the advantages of MGU-H? The MGU-H is mostly used to increase the boost pres- sure, thus increasing the brake mean effective pressure (BMEP) output, when the energy available at the turbine is insufficient to properly run the compressor, for steady, low speed.
UR absolutely nuts, and I love your channel! I do the road race , done 14 Turbo cars and Admittedly I'm thinking about off corner response, where you are talking about loading a converter etc. I realize these are different but it seems like a reasonable answer is your A/R ratio is too big on the turbine. As well this is an Enormous rotating mass, at least to me, And must be contributory, Lordy that is a huge single Checking the exhaust pressure is A cheaper way to check this out.; Then you can check the ramp of the exhaust pressure and compare to the boost rise. We are usually Doing the opposite;chasing turbines that are too small and have giant 2-1 exhaust/intake pressures, but when we ramp this down to 1.2 or so or less, response is good and were not melting exhaust valves. I would think this wouldn't be too much problem since you're only WOT a few seconds Its less headache to me to start off with a too small a turbine and work up till response falls off. Keep Up the fantastic journey stories that keep us all researching, and congratulations on being cover boy on race Engine! -ed
The turbo motor spooling waste-gate worked just like a fighter jet engine! It bleeds air for acceleration. The only additional thing for jet engines is that it prevents engine compressor stalls.
Turbo or Blower, it all depends on the application, how the engine was made, what parts it has and everything that belongs to the tuning of the engines all counts some cases blower its better combo and some case turbo all depends what you gonna do with it are it straith line track car or driffter.
Hello Mr M I am 56 years old I been a auto tech now for 35 years .I love your channel. I have a idea for a cylinder head that will run with no valve springs.unlimited rpm and just the average guy can buy the heads at Walmart for 500.00 a set.but I need a guy like u to help us make a few million in the process
Curious how you choose to release the dyno and how long the sweep goes. I imagine the large horsepower runs through the water brake fairly quickly. Is it rpm increase per second? How does that all work? Thank you!
I always thought they had there pros and cons for each. Good information. Personally I have always been partial to roots blowers. I have friends that worked at Roots blowers in Indiana.
Can you change the exhaust side impeller/snail on the turbo to spin the intake side impeller faster at a lower rpm and accomplish a better boost/hp curve without sacrificing full rpm boost. Possibly Impeller design shape or vaariable ?
Crazy butt relevant, I was thinking the same thing before I seen the video of the waste gate and thought that needed a flat to build pressure then release to spool faster because the evacuation of the exhaust pressure will be quicker like in the three valve per cylinder application
Does the additional work of dynoing your customer's engines with turbos show you anything you otherwise wouldn't be able to see if you just tested them all NA? I.e., does the boost show any points of failure or defects that you otherwise wouldn't catch?
hmm thinking about it would you have to increase the intake waste gate pressure to always be greater than the boost, so that it doesn't push the intake back open,
Well I did learn something. Could you share air fuel ratio info especially when doing comparison runs and power changes. Would a higher control pressure water pump to the dyno better simulate car loading vs dyno loading? Thanks again..
Just curious.... On the turbo setup, what if you went to a smaller diameter exhaust/header tubing to speed up the velocity through the hot side of the turbo
Hi Steve, theoretically, would the chassis dyno be able to create the load requirements for a big turbo engine? I expect it would be a challenge making up a dolly for ut and too may driveline variables to actually do. Just interested if the dyno characteristics would help
Full throttle does not need full opening, its Pumping Loss or someshit. Honda have worked it out in tuning. You need a throttle body in front of turbo only partially open until launch. Will be on fullboost ASAP Works well on manual street cars between gears also
That massive turbo needs a jet/rocket anti lag system. That way you can control the amount of boost you want off the line then depending on how much fuel you put into the anti lag you can control the rate that the boost climbs. I am really surprised more teams haven't implemented such systems. Unless the class has outlawed it.
I really hope I get to meet you someday and shake your hand. You are asking the questions and experimenting all the things I think about. I’ve never heard anyone try to explain freewheeling a supercharger is bad. The stacking of atmospheric pressure in front of the blower is the cushion that prevents damage. Not a lot of people know this. But they know you need to have a harmonic balancer on the crank!
On your big single charger setup. Can you get your dyno to pull the motor from top to down. Higher rpms will get the turbo spinning faster and light easier and more consistent.
The turbo is loaded by the mass of air it has to move, not the pressure. By adding that blow-off valve, you are actually loading the turbo more by making it flow more air. Increasing the hot side air flow is what you should be focusing on to spool it faster. It looks like this turbo is just too big to operate on this engine below 6 or 7k rpm. You might want to look at the surge line of the turbo vs the actual air flow of the engine at lower rpm
Would running the turbo motor on methanol have helped get it to spool better with the cold side gate? Since the extra exhaust flow/energy would have pushed the turbine a bit faster?
You should build a hybrid dyno that is a combo of the water brake and the hub dyno. Bolt the engine to a transmission/converter and then connect the transmssion to a chassis style brake. That would allow you to simulate car like loads without having to have the car there.
Weird question for you. But if you had just a bare frame or chassis with say a 2 speed 400 and a 9inch couldn’t you use that on the chassis dyno then you could have your two step and everything set up. I don’t know anything about dyno’s it was just a question for instance like this
For the turbo motor could you not put it on a 2step, with very little load from the dyno, then add load until you can hear it being loaded and get off the brake?
Make an input on a table that will pull timing starting at 5000 rpm and go to -20 by 5200 rpm, this will act like a rev limiter but be butter smooth and it will spool the turbo with no engine load, let it go once you hit the boost you want
I mean the centrifugal supercharger is nearly identical in concept to a turbo. Not to get off track here, but interested in how a roots or screw would differ as well.
Can you write a dyno loading scaling facor for the 1st few seconds or under a given rpm? Instead of 1:1 input to output. Use a subprogram to produce 3:1 for the first 2 or 3 seconds of the pull to get more initial turbine shaft speed I understand you need one to one for accurate numbers from the dyno. But you also need exaggerated load to make the turbo spool.
Can you use the dyno load to simulate the converter and track load? This from a guy who knows little to nothing. Would a chassis/hub dyno give better data?
In an earlier video, you made the point that when you run a blower/turbo straight into the atmosphere that is actually has to work harder since there is a constant 14.7psi to push against as opposed to the vacuum created by the descending pistons. I don't know of that's true or not, but it stuck me at the time as very interesting.
I typed this before you talked about doing it with the blower. If the drive pressure on the blower goes up, why wouldn't the turbo do the same thing? Lots of things going on there. Interesting to think about
Steve Why not place an electric turbo to get large turbo to spool up faster even when car is at the line. Electric turbo can be controlled by a reo-stat speed control? For heavy cars it might launch the vehicle faster then slow down when boost accelerates with big turbo?
Steve thank you for sharing so much knowledge and been the window to performance engineering. I've seen things trought this channel that I've never seen before if it wasn't for you! Love this channel!
I'd like a little more explanation on the waste gate blow-off valve being so detrimental on centrifugal superchargers. Do you mean like active control or just having a boost leak. I've seen 2 different instances of people Taking a hole saw to a charge pipe to lower boost. I get it still takes 500 hp to drive but the impeller and gears should still be loaded.
It's great that you tell us EXACTLY what set-ups you're using on each different engine combo. Now my boy's and I will have to subscribe to Kyle's channel 😅😂
Are your valve springs specifically designed to your specifications because if so have you considered having springs designed in 17:7 stainless steel. This should I think avoid the stress corrosion from sour methanol and water in the oil. Properly designed 17:7 springs are good for 100 million cycles at least. Beyond that very high cycle fatigue can sometimes be an issue. Must be good quality VAR or similar to avoid inclusions.
Sick video thanks for the shoutout dad 💪🤘
Love what you and your family do! I hope everyone is well!
You Guy’s…
Honestly….
Congratulations…to all at SM’s
Subbed!!!
Couldn’t find your channel by Kyle morris. It led me to a golfer. Had to do the @ search.. subscribed ❤
@@khawli6032 link in description.
Thanks Steve for putting out awesome videos not many engin builders will go in depth to show how to do things and even when you have problems you still show the world it goes to show what a great and honest engin builder u are 🇺🇸🇺🇸
Where's Jackstand & his bottle of spoolmaster 9000 when you need him 😂
@@extcreat I wasn't invited
If ever there was a race car engine candidate for a Switchblade turbo charger upgrade… here it is. Steve I doubt you’ll even read this but if you do please look up Blaylock turbo chargers in Baxter Springs Ks. My friend Jim Blaylock patented a turbo charger modification for just this sort of issue. And they are making great strides in this design. It uses a simple mechanical mechanism fed off of boost that changes the internal volume inside the turbo charger turbine housing to act like a smaller turbo charger at lower RPM to spool quickly & then as boost increases, it opens up to flow more.
Sounds like a variable vein turbo like some of the new cars come with
@@SpudstrodamusVGT turbos are very old technology
It doesnt make turbo smaller, it just makes turbine housing more restrictive. I dont know how something can be patented if it was found 40 years ago by someone else, and forgotten because it didnt work.
Yeah, I was about to say, that's just a VGT. Your friend may have patented a better way to achieve that result, but the idea isn't anything new. And as far as I know, with a VGT you don't necessary need a dump valve as you can control the boost pressure by changing the position of the vanes.
@@JuniorJunison They have a small RUclips channel but most vids are at least a couple years old
The SMX showdown/ blower vs turbo, I personally like blowers! You are the man Steve!
I bet you do like blowers 😝
The fact that you have the facilities to film that intro is pretty frikin' cool.
He's got the machinery to whittle an SMX out of a raw chunk of metal, and it's the engine dyno that impresses you?😂
@thelonewrangler1008 To be fair, theres actually 2 dynos 😂
I like the rag over the wastegate outlet. Reminds me of when I was walking thru the MAZDA engine plant in Hiroshima Japan. This was in the mid-1980s. There were little kids’ toy pinwheels mounted on the backs of the computer controllers that ran the machining line. I asked the Mazda engineer I was working with what was up with the pinwheels. He said they were mounted behind the computer cooling fans. If the pinwheel was spinning the fan was working. If not, a passing employee would notify the millwrights that a repair team was needed.
At Ford’s (& probably all other American engine plants) plants there was an electronic monitor on each machine. Cost comparison: 5 cents for.the pinwheel vs probably $50 for the electronic babysitter.
Good on ya, Steve!
The 5 cents doesn't account for labor costs involved in monitoring the pin wheel
Back in the 80s when I was taught to drive a semi truck, that's when the old mechanical diesels could be made to run pretty easily if you knew what you were doing or knew someone who did.. anyway one thing that was taught after you turned the pump up was to plug the waste gate and man would those things come alive!!
Steve the thing is… we love how you let us in on your experiences! Other people will work out all the bugs off camera then show the polished footage. You and Kevin Smith really make information honestly. Keep it up
Man I love these videos. As someone with a love of big horsepower, but neither the space nor the money to build something myself, SME is like hanging out in your buddy's garage while he works. Brilliant.
Compound turbo! That turbo is so big that you've introduced turbo lag on an SMX. Which is not something I ever thought I'd say or thing was possible.
Needs some spool aid.
Wish I thought of this, well played sir.
That’s what 2 step is for or if rolling anti lag. It’s 2024 only places you see turbo lag is in diesel. Or someone who doesn’t know how to tune. But he is using a engine dyno you don’t use either of those so yes it take a second to build and literally just a second it’s building pretty fast
18:25 It's the Dewey decibel system!
Don't toss that charge pipe, "give" it to me with your and Kyle's autographs so I can put it in my garage. My friends will be blown away!
At the 56 minute mark you mulling over egate. If you want to improve boost response and get turbo spinning quickly, you need to cut the flow of air going into turbo inlet. Even bleeding off boost won't help. A vacuum cleaner screams when you block it. The noise you hear is the extra rpm it's doing because it's not able to grab air and move it. The turbo is the same. As it moves air it needs input from exhaust wheel to drive it. Air has mass and needs energy to move it. Kill the clean air getting to it, and it can't absorb energy by moving that air. It can, therefore, speed up more for the same exhaust flowing thru engine. Once you have it to the desired turbo rpm then let it eat air. It's counterintuitive.
@@donmathias1705 so put another throttle body in front of the turbo and pull it partially closed for a brief moment to act as an "anti-lag"
i got news for ya, doesnt matter how big of rod you can stick in an engine, mcfarland tuning and crew will destroy it.
You write that like he cares. He makes money on people pushing these engines. That big block didn't owe anyone anything when it let go the first time.
Give cleet a wartsila diesel rod😂
@@--_DJ_--you and I both wrote comments like anybody cares. That's the way she goes bud.
Yet ANOTHER keyboard warrior. Jealousy is a terrible thing.
I don't care what he does as long as it entertains me. (or you) Let that sink in. Cleetus did. All the way to the bank.
@@realblakrawb what?
Can Steve Morris build a 2 step dynoemulator?
Keep sending it, Steve. Your the best.
Amazing watching you work and seeing your problem solving processes. Fascinating
Ive seen guys send fuel and set spark on a couple cylinders to fire in the exhaust to spool the turbo up higher at lower rpm. I believe and have seen this hurt turbos and shorten lifespan and Gotta be good at sequential fuel and spark control to make sure its not too big of a boom but it will spool quicker. Idk how well it would work on such a large turbo but higher rpm the more pressure overlap in the exhaust from standard booms and booms in the exhaust, take that as you will. Timing is fun. Basically antilag but for building boost not maintaining.
Sir, I have been SO enthralled with your channel since learning more about the SMX from Sick Summer/Cleetus’ channel. I just had to say thanks for being so detailed, uploading long videos, and using awesome montage music 🎉
Engine air temperature is critical to making power. Gale Banks talks about it a lot with his boosted applications. I did not see air temps as part of the data set, so it might be smart to monitor the charge air temp for a clearer picture of what is happening.
Gale banks is talking about diesel, pro mod engines runs on alcohol that's the ticket for not running an intercooler the air charge will be cooled be the fuel nothing else is needed
Gale even talks about the affects of alcohol cooling when he takes a try at building a proper diesel for monster trucks, he even tried to run massive alcohol through his Dmax. I think Steve has even tried charge cooling on Methanol and it didn't help much. Iy comes down to more parts= more weight on the car, and more complex to he already crammed engine compartments.
Gale has done done gas engines too!
The reason the turbo spools suddenly is because of the air pressure in the hot side (exhaust) not being high enough to force itself through the blades of the turbo. This results in little to no flow through the hot side (as pressure increases heat also builds more quickly) until enough pressure is achieved to begin flowing air through the hot side instead of building up pressure against it. Ways I can think of to mitigate this is having smaller runners to the hot side (so less volume of air is required to build enough pressure), making sure the turbo shaft spins as freely as possible, different turbo blade geometry, waste gate/bypass/dump/other valves on both sides of turbo, anti-lag systems, electric motors spinning the turbo (as demonstrated by one of the latest Porsche engines), etc. all of which may compromise certain areas of performance. ...But that's all just to say air bouncing off a fan doesn't spin it until that air begins to flow through the fan, if that makes sense, that's why the turbo lags the way it does. It's all about optimizing the turbo speed to hot side pressure ratio to minimize lag.
Turbine is open, gases can flow easily through it without pressure. Compressor side is more important, if it is not on a map, it does nothing.
Thanks Steve for explaining your thought process as this goes along. I feel my understanding is helped immeasurably because my learning style is hands on, and you walking us through it as it happens makes me feel like I am trouble shooting too! Very entertaining! This is obviously a high quality organization!
I remember I think it was Stavtech on here and IG shared some rally tech where they take an additional throttle body and mount it in front of the turbo to create a vacuum within the compressor. Same concept of the wastegate just further pressure reduction into vacuum. Like how a vacuum cleaner speeds up when you block the inlet.
Charge Air Control
Prochargers are rampid in NoPrepKings due to the fact it is easier to tune and faster reaction that is right there with the Blower combos. Turbos are hard to tune but, once they are tuned they are hard to beat.
Spell check in RUclips not that great... I meant rampant... thanx for the spell check lol.
Rampant
That's gay as hell
@@fartzinacan- Rancid?
@@danmyers9372 great band, but no. Spelling correction for "rampid" in the original post.
Turbos arent even a factor in NPK way to unstable to tune. Procharger for the win
Thanks for this comparison and explaining why it's different in the car! Very cool.
You might find this info interesting ! It's called Rocket turbo anti lag ,there's a patent on it , it keeps your turbo spooled at low engine speeds , was used on Subaru rallye cars years ago , could possibly use on race cars
Is this when you retard the timing so much that it blows up in the exhaust (or while exhaust valves are already open)?
Charge Air Control
Supercharger= near instant power.
Turbo= Turbo lag, but a little more potential.
Also power requirements to drive a super charger vs exhaust gas propulsion, not a big deal when you have thousands of hp so much😂
Would be cool to see some sort of compound setup feeding into the procharger
And turbos are a lot more complicated to power manage as was clearly demonstrated in the video. And this is with the engine on a dyno vs in a car.
@@ruckus__no need to do a compound system with gas engines. You can’t put the boost to a gas engine that you can to a diesel,. Yiu can only add so much boost to a sparked fired engine before you have detonations issues that start melting things or breaking rods, you don’t detonation issues with diesel because in stead of spark you spraying the fuel in to get the ignition.
Turbo recovers energy, supercharger uses it. I still like blower characteristics for the instant torque off idle for most things.
I wish I could see the reaction of Jean Pierre Kraemer @JP Performance GmbH Dortmund Germany at 8:54 when Steve talks about a "street car" engine 😂😂😂
Interesting to note. As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
Love it! Dewey just chillin on the couch!!! What a dog!
I'm a supercharger guy myself. I don't have one, but If I were to get back into racing, my ride would be supercharged for sure.
Since before WWII it has been known that turbochargers are able to recover waste energy from the exhaust stream, and so can somewhat more efficiently drive a turbocharger. Certainly a supercharger can have better throttle response, but for a given amount of power they require a more robust bottom end since the power to drive one comes directly as a load on the crank. Tradeoffs.
Turbo too big is a miserable thing to live with....but in a drag car they're using/abusing the torque converter to make one work. Cam selection would also be very different as back pressure on the turbo needs to be taken into account. If you have the same back-pressure as boost then the overlap doesn't matter, but when exhaust pressure is more than boost....overlap tends to blow exhaust into the chamber. On the street...a much smaller turbo would work a lot better.
@recoilrob324 that's why most go with two smaller turbos instead of one biggin.
Holey smokes, a smart youtube comment discussion on blowers and turbos. As far as my knowledge goes, no lies detected
Pete Harrell (sp?) had a nice video that talked about the additional difficulties in using a turbo in a drag car over a supercharger. There were some advantages with the supercharger, as boost is purely a function of RPM for most. Set the launch RPM, done.
Lmao
Could slowing down the sweep speed on the dyno help? Response of engine as boost comes on is faster than the valve on the water brake can match perhaps.
The boost threshold on that big turbo is no joke. A smaller exhaust housing should help it spool up but then it might be too restrictive at higher RPM.
The blade design on the supercharger is critical to move air
Dependent on the design parameters you design the turbine blades to move "x" volume of air at "y" rpm under "z" ambient pressure
Taking rpm "y" *1,6 does not necessarily equate to volume "x" *1,6 at same ambient, it may only be "x"*1,35 etc
So the sweet spot has a +- percentage tolerance of say "y" +10% overdriven or "y" -5% and that would be your efficiency range.
By simply speeding up your blower does not necessarily equate a 1:1 correlation in speed increase and boost/volume efficiency. You may be getting a 1:0,8 ratio and generate a lot more heat doing it
I think that Professor Steve Morris will figure all this out eventually because he has to know. Thanks for taking us along on your journey. That Dyno and software is hiding the "rest of the story".
I'm pushing 60 years old and have been making my living as mechanic and shop owner since teenager. Been active drag racer and dabbled in other motor sports. I've been hard core old school and still competitive some what. You have really helped me learn and understand how it works and tune with more than my screw drivers, timing light, and reading plugs. Really enjoy your real deal the way it is. I've had some great combinations and way more not so great. Some I should have lit a stack of cash on fire to save time.
Could an engine dyno be used with the engine and trans combination the person is using and hook the dyno to the "driveshaft" out of the trans? Solves the problem of flashing converter and trans brake but at the same time I figure it would make more sense to just hub dyno it after install?
Steve did you think of using the type of boost control system that Mark Micki runs? No waste gates and boost is controlled by 2 blow off valves in the intake tube.
Wow, that is so much technical stuff that I have a headache! That was a lot of knowledge Steve. Thanks.
If you can use the dyno to hold the engine at launch rpm with the throttle wide open while pulling timing to build boost then start the pull maybe it would work?edit: nevermind i just heard the explanation lol
Hi @stevemorris I was wondering, you said billet blocks needed heat treatment while being machined. When you weld a block wouldn’t the welded part react differently (expand) or is the welding process enough of a heat treatment? And if not wouldn’t that be the reason why a repaired engine is less reliable?
I want to say I saw the video on eagles new motor from cleetus and I think it’s awesome to see the difference in a monster street car motor such as the smx and the proline hemi for essentially a pro mod track car and how they differ I want to say props to you and the job that you do to make a motor so powerful for the street and the engineering behind it
The 140mm T might be a slug at low rpm due to the exhaust back pressure. Until there's enough hot gas to move the impeller fast enough to do work, it can be a restriction. Some guys leave the waste gate open until they're making boost at whichever rpm the engine's exhaust really heats up the turbo.
Lean of Peak EGT mixture - do any tuners switch to that when a fuel limitation is reached? It seems like that could be a safe strategy to avoid peak temperature and pressure scenarios which could damage parts.. That might be a better alternative than just running into the red when there’s a problem. It assumes that the mixture of individual combustion events could be controlled by injector duty cycle, which I think is true, but might need to be checked out. Controllers might need some control logic. A related approach would be for the controller to start cutting duty cycle on some cylinders while increasing it on other cylinders. The reduction on some cylinders would result in more fuel being available for other cylinders. Main point is that lean mixture may only be dangerous to components when it results in peak EGT. And EGT drops once the mixture is continued to be leaned. And, lean mixture doesn’t necessarily result in misfire within a safe range of mixtures - so long as the spark is hot and provides enough chamber coverage.
So what did we all learn here today? Blowers=Cheat code Turbo=Incremental complexity
blowers break alot, shake cars apart, and make a ton of low rpm power that can blow the tires off
turbos make those problems go away but are a tuning nightmare lol
Blowers = parasitic loss (whether crank-driven or belt)
@Make-Asylums-Great-Again yep! I remember one of the nhra top fuel guys saying that huge blower on them takes 400hp to spin
I'm not up with the intricacies of water brake dynos but am I correct in assuming an eddy current dyno might work better for this specific application of trying to spool such a large turbo?
So what does a procharged SMX sound like preferably not with zoomies not a big fan would be sweet if it was though duels out the back but doesn’t seem practical if you happen to have any videos or know of one setup with single side exits. I know turbos tend to quite engine noise would love to hear one.
Listen here on my car with SMX
RALLY STYLE ANTI-LAG SETUP ON A BIG v8 NEXT FROM STEVE MORRIS ENGINES!
I understand your theory of the relief of the back pressure on the turbo. Kind of like revving up a engine and dumping the clutch to try and do a burnout. But at 0psi the engine is consuming as much air as the turbo is passing anyway. Any positive charge pressure would also create more exhaust flow?
"Caution" - @ 79 I'm still learning - Know it is tough to find time, don't stop info in a entertaining way It's the Steve Smile
e boost controller sorta what F1 uses the MGU-H
What are the advantages of MGU-H?
The MGU-H is mostly used to increase the boost pres- sure, thus increasing the brake mean effective pressure (BMEP) output, when the energy available at the turbine is insufficient to properly run the compressor, for steady, low speed.
UR absolutely nuts, and I love your channel! I do the road race , done 14 Turbo cars and Admittedly I'm thinking about off corner response, where you are talking about loading a converter etc. I realize these are different but it seems like a reasonable answer is your A/R ratio is too big on the turbine. As well this is an Enormous rotating mass, at least to me, And must be contributory, Lordy that is a huge single
Checking the exhaust pressure is A cheaper way to check this out.; Then you can check the ramp of the exhaust pressure and compare to the boost rise.
We are usually Doing the opposite;chasing turbines that are too small and have giant 2-1 exhaust/intake pressures, but when we ramp this down to 1.2 or so or less, response is good and were not melting exhaust valves. I would think this wouldn't be too much problem since you're only WOT a few seconds
Its less headache to me to start off with a too small a turbine and work up till response falls off.
Keep Up the fantastic journey stories that keep us all researching, and congratulations on being cover boy on race Engine!
-ed
The turbo motor spooling waste-gate worked just like a fighter jet engine! It bleeds air for acceleration. The only additional thing for jet engines is that it prevents engine compressor stalls.
Thank you Steve for the video thanks for explaining Some of the differences from a pro charger and turbocharger thank you great video
idea: quad charged setup with a crank mount procharger, twin turbos and a roots blower. it will last exactly 1 pass but hey it will be glorious
An amazing instructional video, a Lot of time /effort put into this video. Very very informative
Turbo or Blower, it all depends on the application, how the engine was made, what parts it has and everything that belongs to the tuning of the engines all counts some cases blower its better combo and some case turbo all depends what you gonna do with it are it straith line track car or driffter.
Hello Mr M I am 56 years old I been a auto tech now for 35 years .I love your channel. I have a idea for a cylinder head that will run with no valve springs.unlimited rpm and just the average guy can buy the heads at Walmart for 500.00 a set.but I need a guy like u to help us make a few million in the process
Ducati has already patented it decades ago
Curious how you choose to release the dyno and how long the sweep goes. I imagine the large horsepower runs through the water brake fairly quickly. Is it rpm increase per second? How does that all work? Thank you!
You should use a "Spool Valve" from "Boost on Tap" in Australia. That get spooling quicker!
I always thought they had there pros and cons for each. Good information. Personally I have always been partial to roots blowers. I have friends that worked at Roots blowers in Indiana.
Can you change the exhaust side impeller/snail on the turbo to spin the intake side impeller faster at a lower rpm and accomplish a better boost/hp curve without sacrificing full rpm boost. Possibly Impeller design shape or vaariable ?
SMX in England…righteous!
@@bonose12 anyone know where he is gonna race i always wanted to see a smx pass im in england
@@112boatmangotta be Santa pod, one of the most popular drag strips in the uk
@@This_Time_Next_Year_Rodney cheers i will check it out
where’s he going to get e85 here in blighty?
@@eliotmansfieldmight be having it shipped in. I know there’s some companies that ship to other countries
Are there any restrictions that you have to be on the lookout for when building a motor for a car in the UK?
Quick question, what’s the point of a 140mm turbo if you limit it to only 8pbs of boost? Why not go with a 30mm - 40mm?
Crazy butt relevant, I was thinking the same thing before I seen the video of the waste gate and thought that needed a flat to build pressure then release to spool faster because the evacuation of the exhaust pressure will be quicker like in the three valve per cylinder application
Does the additional work of dynoing your customer's engines with turbos show you anything you otherwise wouldn't be able to see if you just tested them all NA? I.e., does the boost show any points of failure or defects that you otherwise wouldn't catch?
hmm thinking about it would you have to increase the intake waste gate pressure to always be greater than the boost, so that it doesn't push the intake back open,
Well I did learn something.
Could you share air fuel ratio info especially when doing comparison runs and power changes. Would a higher control pressure water pump to the dyno better simulate car loading vs dyno loading?
Thanks again..
Just curious.... On the turbo setup, what if you went to a smaller diameter exhaust/header tubing to speed up the velocity through the hot side of the turbo
Hi Steve, theoretically, would the chassis dyno be able to create the load requirements for a big turbo engine? I expect it would be a challenge making up a dolly for ut and too may driveline variables to actually do. Just interested if the dyno characteristics would help
Full throttle does not need full opening, its Pumping Loss or someshit.
Honda have worked it out in tuning.
You need a throttle body in front of turbo only partially open until launch.
Will be on fullboost ASAP
Works well on manual street cars between gears also
How many RPM per second do you have the dyno set to control the pull? The pulls are so quick to hit max RPM
That massive turbo needs a jet/rocket anti lag system. That way you can control the amount of boost you want off the line then depending on how much fuel you put into the anti lag you can control the rate that the boost climbs. I am really surprised more teams haven't implemented such systems. Unless the class has outlawed it.
It just goes to show that you put out quality and you really want people to understand how engines work.
I really hope I get to meet you someday and shake your hand. You are asking the questions and experimenting all the things I think about. I’ve never heard anyone try to explain freewheeling a supercharger is bad. The stacking of atmospheric pressure in front of the blower is the cushion that prevents damage. Not a lot of people know this. But they know you need to have a harmonic balancer on the crank!
Put the e-gate on the 2-step/trans-brake button, no drive pressure when you hold it and snaps shut for launch on release
On your big single charger setup. Can you get your dyno to pull the motor from top to down. Higher rpms will get the turbo spinning faster and light easier and more consistent.
The turbo is loaded by the mass of air it has to move, not the pressure. By adding that blow-off valve, you are actually loading the turbo more by making it flow more air. Increasing the hot side air flow is what you should be focusing on to spool it faster. It looks like this turbo is just too big to operate on this engine below 6 or 7k rpm. You might want to look at the surge line of the turbo vs the actual air flow of the engine at lower rpm
That turbo motor that you're doing is doing the same thing My LS motor did on our airboat no power no power all the sudden white ass open!
Kyle has been blessed in life... God sure did look out for him by giving him one hell of a cool dad
Would running the turbo motor on methanol have helped get it to spool better with the cold side gate? Since the extra exhaust flow/energy would have pushed the turbine a bit faster?
Thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge
What size fuel rails are used on a SMX? Cleet's new Pro Line Hemi has a 16AN fuel rails which is like 1 5/16" inner dianeter. 😂
You should build a hybrid dyno that is a combo of the water brake and the hub dyno. Bolt the engine to a transmission/converter and then connect the transmssion to a chassis style brake. That would allow you to simulate car like loads without having to have the car there.
Weird question for you. But if you had just a bare frame or chassis with say a 2 speed 400 and a 9inch couldn’t you use that on the chassis dyno then you could have your two step and everything set up. I don’t know anything about dyno’s it was just a question for instance like this
Could you use a VGT exhaust on the Turbo to manipulate boost pressure as required? I really don’t understand.
For the turbo motor could you not put it on a 2step, with very little load from the dyno, then add load until you can hear it being loaded and get off the brake?
Make an input on a table that will pull timing starting at 5000 rpm and go to -20 by 5200 rpm, this will act like a rev limiter but be butter smooth and it will spool the turbo with no engine load, let it go once you hit the boost you want
I mean the centrifugal supercharger is nearly identical in concept to a turbo.
Not to get off track here, but interested in how a roots or screw would differ as well.
On the pro charged engine. Do they remove the crank coupler to the blower for driving on the street?
Can you write a dyno loading scaling facor for the 1st few seconds or under a given rpm? Instead of 1:1 input to output. Use a subprogram to produce 3:1 for the first 2 or 3 seconds of the pull to get more initial turbine shaft speed
I understand you need one to one for accurate numbers from the dyno. But you also need exaggerated load to make the turbo spool.
Can you use the dyno load to simulate the converter and track load? This from a guy who knows little to nothing. Would a chassis/hub dyno give better data?
In an earlier video, you made the point that when you run a blower/turbo straight into the atmosphere that is actually has to work harder since there is a constant 14.7psi to push against as opposed to the vacuum created by the descending pistons. I don't know of that's true or not, but it stuck me at the time as very interesting.
I typed this before you talked about doing it with the blower. If the drive pressure on the blower goes up, why wouldn't the turbo do the same thing? Lots of things going on there. Interesting to think about
Steve
Why not place an electric turbo to get large turbo to spool up faster even when car is at the line. Electric turbo can be controlled by a reo-stat speed control?
For heavy cars it might launch the vehicle faster then slow down when boost accelerates with big turbo?
Steve thank you for sharing so much knowledge and been the window to performance engineering. I've seen things trought this channel that I've never seen before if it wasn't for you! Love this channel!
I'd like a little more explanation on the waste gate blow-off valve being so detrimental on centrifugal superchargers. Do you mean like active control or just having a boost leak. I've seen 2 different instances of people Taking a hole saw to a charge pipe to lower boost. I get it still takes 500 hp to drive but the impeller and gears should still be loaded.
Another SM video. Jus what I needed todays has been rough
Watching Steve build fun stuff puts my mind somewhere else ✓ I have a list of things dropped on me this week. "Yeah"
How much boost can cleetus run those bigger rods if i may ask I’m for excited for mullet to get back on track than the eagle
It's great that you tell us EXACTLY what set-ups you're using on each different engine combo.
Now my boy's and I will have to subscribe to Kyle's channel 😅😂
Are your valve springs specifically designed to your specifications because if so have you considered having springs designed in 17:7 stainless steel. This should I think avoid the stress corrosion from sour methanol and water in the oil. Properly designed 17:7 springs are good for 100 million cycles at least. Beyond that very high cycle fatigue can sometimes be an issue. Must be good quality VAR or similar to avoid inclusions.