@@rodo1252Some people are given access to incredibly secret CIA technology which allows them to make new languages, symbols and metaphors on the fly. What you are seeing is the result of many powers each vying for control.
it seems really important and I don't see many people talking through it. Something to turn to to learn from would be great (although obviously not really legal advice! just, experienced tips)
Mark, I am BEGGING you to make a video about writing up contracts for freelance artists working on a game. Also contractor fees. It’s something that desperately needs some good demystifying in the games space.
Agreed, I'm soloing a game right now and have very little clue what to do on the I need to hire someone front, and my art skills are a lot worse than Marks...
One very minor suggestion for repetative sounds like the nuts and bolts hitting surfaces, you should randomize the pitch of each one a bit so they don't run together. If you are randomizing the pitch already, crank it higher, because it wasn't obvious. The nuts and bolts sounded like high pitched bubble wrap when they could sound almost musical. Bonus points if you actually make them musical by pitching them to the scale of the music.
I mean, legal nonsense is important, and often not talked about, so absolutely do we want a video on that! Advice, pitfalls, feel, how to make it feel fair to yourself and whomever you're hiring.
Im with you there, I'm probably months away from releasing my own little project, but it would be nice to know all the boring stuff upfront, legal, publishing, how the hell do I do updates for games??? All that stuff. There's so many little things that I've never known I'd need to know about the responsibilities of a game developer, especially solo.
"Better than it actually is" is very telling, Mark lol You wouldn't believe how boring and hokey some of your favorite movies seem with the music stripped out. Doesn't mean they're secretly bad movies getting away with something. The music is an integral part of the experience! You don't judge the merits of an audio visual work without the audio!
In the DVD release of _Harry Potter 5_ (Order of the Phoenix), one of the bonuses was that you could play a few scenes from the film but with your own choice of background music, just to compare how different the result may feel.
I absolutely want a 3 hour video about legal contracts. That's part of the process, and just like marketing and money, will also be good for making sure burgeoning developers (and those who work for them) are behaving ethically.
They may not even act intentionally wrong, but a lot of people misunderstand what contracts do. They view them as ugly, nasty pieces that accuse them of being a crook when that's the furthest thing from the truth. Yes there are abusive contracts but you don't have to participate like that. At their core, it's your chance to define the working relationship and remove anxiety over many possible unknowns. It sets the expectations so you know how the interaction will go and how work will progress. It clarifies your financial burdens and pay periods. And yes, it does settle who owns what and in what way, so when the job is done, you can both walk away happy with what you've produced.
The feedback about the nuts and bolts making sound is so spot on as one of those weird little things that does a lot. I love it when im playing a game and all the little bits and bobs make noise
They need a little more randomization in volume and pitch. Not a lot, but to really sell the idea of a lot of differently shaped bits scattering around.
dude when the nuts and bolts made sound i went "oooohhhh yes" thats such a small detail that will stick out to everyone who plays it when they look back on the game
Stuff like this is what separates out great games. I've always thought of it as "Nintendo" polish. Like even the smallest details are given attention to. When Mario hits a cactus, he gets a spike in his nose. It's just one of many little details that won't happen again. Nintendo could've just stuck to a generic damage animation, but they customized it for an otherwise trivial situation.
ok for my explanations why the water and nuts/bolts were a common issue: water - while rotational motion is generally unnoticed at low framerates, translational motion is very noticed, and often disliked at low framerates. you can actually see this in the door open animation, as the wheel turning seems smooth, but you can tell when each frame starts when the door slides open nuts/bolts - mass interactivity needs sfx associated, or else it breaks immersion. grass and leaves are a good, common example.
At 19:00, as a seasoned Game Dev I have to say this is a very advanced way to handle and keep track of feedback. It's important to keep your own opinion on certain matters, even if we usually see how Gamedevs "refuse to listen to us players". Keep up the good work and congrats for getting so much attention on your game.
Hey, Mark, I'm sure you've already heard this or found it out yourself, but you can test your Steam package before it is approved. It should already be in the library for your developer account. Once you're live, you can make a separate branch and do your testing from there. It's a really great way to make sure everything works before submitting to Steam or publishing for the world to see.
I'd offer a third explanation for the feedback on "trivial" background stuff: this kind of polish really makes a difference, especially in contrast to the polished, forefront stuff. sometimes it's better to not have these kinds of things unless they're as polished as possible. I think of a fancy meal: the presentation around the plate may not seem "meaningful", but it's better to not do it then to do it in a way that clutters and distracts. of course, you now made it nice and satisfying so it should totally stay. but I think we shouldn't underestimate the impact that "trivial" things have on the perception of a piece.
Product Owner here! Your spreadsheet for feedback and bug reports is actually EXACTLY how we track bugs and feedback during software launches and beta testing. The QA team uses a document very similar to yours to know what the Product team views as effective feedback and priority of fixing. We'll even hide lines so that the Dev team only works on certain priority levels. Great job!
I work at a major tech company and it's pretty much exactly our ticketing system, with the only difference being that our severity numbers being reversed, like Defcon
If there’s one thing I’ve learned about this platform, it’s to never ask the audience if they’d watch a video idea unless you’re certain you’d be willing to make it, because no matter how niche or boring you think it is, your audience will absolutely, overwhelmingly agree to its development.
In terms of music's contribution to a game I always remember Jason Jones comment about Martin O'Donell , "Everything he does makes everything we do 50 percent better and he's the only one in the team with that much contribution "
it's actually not that his hands are backwards, it's that they didn't twist around when raising his arms so he's holding the magnet with like, his knuckles. the model's hands face the right way when the arms are down. and the thing is, the in game sprite holds the magnet in the same way with the little thumb pixel going the wrong way, but it looks more natural because you can imagine it as like a robot clamp instead of a mitten hand
2:37 Don't let the impostor syndrome get the better of you. Don't compare yourself to veterans of each of the fields. NOBODY can compare to the experts in each field. You are making a real game by yourself and wear a bunch of hats all at the same time. That's an achievement not many people reach. So pat yourself on the back and don't downplay what you did. ;)
@@MarsJenkar Only if you have vision. This is the one thing to master if you go jack of all trades. Beyond that, specialization is king in collaborative art. (IMO Mark has not shown himself to have vision, but his very mission statement for this game wasn't compatible with vision to begin with so it remains to be seen until later projects.)
On the subject of contracts and creative work, a talk by Mike Monterio titled "F*#$ You, Pay Me" is a must watch. I found out about it from Adam Savage's Tested channel. It's from a while ago and the context is web development, but it is 100% applicable to any freelance/gig work environment that uses contracts for services rendered. Great for anyone on either side of the contract.
The stuff about the frame rate of the drop and the nuts and bolt is about immersion. It's easy to point to ways immersion is broken, so you can always expect lots of that kind of feedback. That said, I think there was room for more creative interpretation of the feedback you got. Making Uni move faster by default isn't nearly as satisfying as making his movement variable and letting players mess with it as part of the puzzle design, for example. Nearly every really awesome platformer gives players access to speed control in one form or another.
I'm reminded of when I contacted my old college professor about soliciting students to make music for my game. From the 8 students who responded, it was jarring how only 2 bothered commenting on my game (and shared music they thought would be fitting). Given I also didn't know what I was doing, I cared much more about seeking a good potential working relationship than having the best music and chose one of the two. So IMO if you really want to stand out, just show a little more care like Zach did. While sharing fitting music was nice, indicating that you even looked at the project (rather than just highlighting how great you are) might give you better odds than you'd expect.
About you saying the music makes the game "better than it actually is" - you can just as easily say that the combination of the game and the music is greater than the sum of its parts.
Im currently doing an internship at a software (not game) company and the guy who gives me tasks and stuff was talking about your videos and how he enjoys your analysis of good design and why certain things are good in the first place. Made me realize how some content intended/focused on one thing can have a big impacts on a whole range of areas. And also crazy to go full circle from Digital to real life besides friends. Love your videos!
I think pointing out also the small level stuff makes a lot of sense. While it makes sense to wish for a high level feedback, it is often the small little details that add up to a good game. And often that is something that is a surprisingly large detail while being very difficult to point out. It often feels something is a little of or could need a little polish, but no idea what that is - the sum of small things.
I remember Yoko Taro (Nier game director) said that the way he approached Keiichi Okabe (the composer) about making music for the game was giving him a bunch of songs and saying "I want something like this", then he would listen and tell what he wanted changed... It is an odd approach but one that ended up working very very well
Ideas: 1. Do a post launch video where you process reviews and response to the launch of your game. I feel like that’s part of the development process. 2. After you launch the PC version, do connsole ports so you can learn about that development process and show us what it’s like. I’m sure it’s very different and unique having to work within that environment.
The music behind your game actually makes it from something I was only moderated in playing to something I really want to play. What a great soundtrack sample!
Only one more episode? What about the post release episode. The episode about the first patch to fix the bug that didn't come up during development which is game breaking for a larger part of the player base than you'd expected. The episode about how to write an apology tweet and finally an episode about how to handle your development studio being closed due to sales not meeting the inflated targets that your "publisher" set...
Who knows if you will see this, but I would just like to say that I appreciate the extra time that goes into the captioning of these videos. It might not seem like it's worth the effort to do (or the money you might spend on having another person do it), but high quality consistent captions is a sign that a creator cares about their audience, and that matters a lot to me :D
I've self-published my first indie game - Holy Stick! (a 2D multiplayer shooter with destructible limbs) on Steam last summer and was hoping that the Next Fest would boost my very low wishlist count. Unfortunately I was quite disappointed. The thing that infuriated me, is that the Next Fest's page was putting the already popular games (like "Lies of P") on top of the list, instead of randomizing things a bit. I ended up having just a couple hundred playthroughts of my demo and an insignificant boost to my wishlists. The release ended up being a total flop, with the game not even having enough reviews to get the Review Rating on the Store page.
This person's commented on this channel several times about other stuff so I doubt self promotion was the main motivation for commenting @@dalemonshateu6948
I like the graphics style of your game, but in my country I have to pay 14,79 Euro which is hella expensive, considering that Stick Fight is 5 Euro and 2 Euro on Sale.
I'm sorry it has been hard to get through the algorithm, it happens and it sucks, but it's out there now. Stay persistent and do your best with timing big updates/dlc/new games to use promotion boosts when there's downtime inbetween hyped releases and it'll get there!
Same thing happened to me two Next Fests ago. However, I was still able to get a decent number of wishlists (for a tiny game) by streaming on the first day. Steam says they feature the games that are streaming in a scheduled slot, and they really do. I also streamed again a few days before Next Fest ended, but Steam was already promoting another event (Yu-Gi-Oh, I believe) and de-prioritized Next Fest games. That was really frustrating! Still, streaming early was a good way to break through the noise.
I feel like a large part of the success you've found with this game has come from having an existing audience in your RUclips channel. Without an existing audience, it doesn't feel like an up-and-coming indie developer has any chance of being noticed.
I really appreciate seeing these videos because it's refreshing to see someone go through the process and admit that it's not all just intuitive and straightforward. There are so many youtube channels out there, big and small, that thrive on explaining games post-hoc with an unwarranted authoritative voice. Thanks for doing this.
Okay, that bolt dropping noise was extremely satisfying. I could see it possibly getting annoying. I don't know but maybe a button to turn it off or quite it down a bit? I think it adds to the atmosphere still tho.
21:23 I'm gonna feedback your feedback and say that this was actually a change for the worse. It draws more attention to the bolts than is really necessary, and more importantly, it's pretty annoying. I'm sure part of what makes it annoying is the sound itself (a quieter, clickier, more atonal sound would be better) but all in all I'd say cut it out or consider limiting how many of them can sound at a time so that it isn't a cacophony of noise. Just my two cents.
Love this series - I'm not a game developer and probably never will be, but I get so much out of seeing someone demystify complex processes like this, and the fact that you take the time to talk about a lot of the more boring aspects of gamedev, like sending feedback emails to collaborators or the trail and error struggle of making your game launch properly through Steam, makes the whole thing come across as so grounded and approachable. I also love your approach to feedback. I'm a writer and have spent a lot of time in workshops, and I just lit up when I saw your little spreadsheet for feedback. It's pretty much exactly how I go about taking notes in a workshop setting. The most important thing is to take down pretty much everything that gets said, even if you don't think it will matter - this is why the little marker for how much you agreed with the feedback is such a good idea. That, on top of noting how often something comes up independently, can help you really see what catches people's eyes, and it gives you a relatively objective chronicle of feedback from which you can decide on what is and isn't worth changing. Maybe something you initially thought wasn't a big deal keeps coming up enough times that you have to change your mind on it! Similarly, I liked that you noticed the difference between feedback on things like pacing and structure versus feedback on things like little background details. In writing settings, there's a name for these categories: big-picture issues like plot, structure, themes, and general coherence are called Higher Order Concerns, while nitpicks about grammar and formatting are Lower Order Concerns. The way of thinking about this is that Higher Order Concerns should be addressed first, because, especially in writing, big changes tend to trickle down and make a lot of other little problems appear or disappear, so solving Lower Order Concerns early can be a waste of time when you move something big and get dust all over things anyway. Now, gamedev is very different from writing, so the order of operations for solving higher vs lower problems is probably not comparable, but it might help to add these categories to your toolbelt for sorting feedback. Part of learning in a workshop setting is learning who gives the best feedback about what, so maybe by tracking Higher and Lower Order Concerns, you can get a feel for who you should definitely be listening to when an issue about level speed comes up or who to check in with about nitpicks in the sound design. I think it's very telling that two wildly different mediums can have so much in common - art is art, after all! I'm glad that your videos can help show the ways that every artist needs to go about sorting through feedback in order to really polish their work. Keep it up, Mark! You're shedding a really interesting light on the realities of indie gamedev.
i see a lot of comments about wanting the 3 hour contract video. Now, im not sure it'd really need to be 3 hours, but - yes Im sorry to say i agree with them. Give it to us! Nobody else would!
from the user side, despite the overwhelming size of nextfests these days, I usually put an afternoon into collecting downloads, and a few afternoons into playing them, checking out aggregators' recommendations as I go. I can't overstate how many unbelievable, life-changing games I have discovered through nextfest. It has shifted my diet from like 60/40 AAA/indie to like easily 80/20 in indie's favor in just a couple years.
I noticed a trend with these videos: You tend to benefit from things like this, which gives you a kick-up of the backside and forces you to polish a part of the game you've been neglecting. Maybe that's a good takeaway as a reason to participate in things like this: motivation.
Here's something worth considering: A super easy way to fix issues with the speed increase breaking puzzles is to add some form of environmental resistance to Uni's movement during those specific puzzles. Fans, conveyor belts, a stick substance on the floor, or even just more magnets would work. This is something I've learned when designing my own games; if you want to restrict the player's abilities to specific areas, make those abilities dependent on the environment. What's great about this approach is that you can also disable these when they are no longer needed to give back the player's freedom (such as turning off the power to these mechanics or washing away in the case of stick floors). This would still need to be tested to see if player are willing to tolerate a momentary hinderance, but I would explore this approach even if only briefly on the chance they end up being a better solution than reworking all the puzzles that suffer from a faster movement. It's also worth considering that players may naturally assume these environmental resistances to be a part of the puzzle; an obstacle that they would need to deal with in order to solve the rest. So if you do want these to be togglable for convenience's sake it would be best not to give players the impression that they have any control over it. Make it feel more like a 'convenient coincidence' rather than a result of the player's actions when they are no longer in effect.
On the topic of your changes to the water drop's frame rate and the bolts' sound effect: I think that's a good example of "game feel" and "juice". They're small things, and potentially meaningless from a gameplay point-of-view, but people still notice them.
tbf alot of the people saying "it's too short" will be the type to expect a wholearse *game* for free so dw about them - when the biggest complaint is "wish there was more" that's good.
i get that. Still, does a 15 min demo not feel like wasted time? Too short to make yourself familiar and comfortable with the game, and probably shorter than the time you spent browsing for the demo
@@leebass7 there are tons of indie games with 20h+ or 50h+ playtime or longer, and lots of long indie demos, no problem, thanks. I'm actually almost exclusively playing indies
I’d be careful about editing artist’s work - at least, without their permission. I’m sure there was no issue with Mind Over Magnet, but some artists can take it personally when you edit their art, even if you commissioned and own it - it’s just good to let them know that you’ll be editing/adjusting their work.
"…pretty demoralizing to see my game hidden under a pile of hundreds and hundreds of amazing indie games." Sounds like someone's never submitted their game to the GMTK game jam lol
Getting to follow along with this journey has been really fun, and I'm glad to see everything starting to come together! Loved the iteration on the music, specifically, and the lesson that you've got to just expect that back and forth as part of that process. Looking forward to seeing more!
You should give the bolts a slight reverb effect and mute them slightly/add a low-pass effect to make it feel more satisfying and chill once they hit the ground.
Great video! June steam fest was my first, and I was over the top with results! One thing helped me a lot was that my game showed up in so many categories, that brought me almost half of your steam fest wishlists, but my game was so bad and unpolished compared to yours! It was great looking at chalenges I also faced before and during fest (my game demo got aproved by steam after 3 rejections on last moment also), but explained with great knowledge and depth! Thanks a lot!
@@kevingriffith6011 It's not just that Quavers are a British snack, it's that musical quavers are called 8th notes in the US, so literally both parts of the play on words are foreign to you.
Man, 7 minutes in, and as someone who has been a musician for most of my life, if someone who didn't know how to talk music tried to tell me what tempo or key to create music in, I think I would lose it lmao. Imagine someone who had never looked at code trying to tell you what methods to use in what classes. Little further in and yeah, that's exactly how I'd want to be talked to.
Mark probably gets these comments more often because this meant to be "I'm learning something I've never done before" series even though its been going on for years and Mark has gotten quite good at it!
@@No.0.o.0 The example he gives shows that no, no he would not. It'd turn into a class teaching the not-knower. That's not the point of the collaboration.
@@dopaminecloud Yeah, that's more of my point. You bring on an expert to tell them the vision you're looking for, not to micromanage what they do. You wouldn't bring your car into a mechanic and then tell him which of his tools to use and how to use them. For the very few times I've created music for someone, they didn't try to micromanage where notes went or how chord changes worked, but as Mark says, give me the vibe and I can go from there. Same thing with software development since that's what I do for a career, you want the person you're working with to give you requirements for the software, but not to come in and tell you how to write the code line by line. At that point, the person hiring you can do it themselves. Mark did it perfectly, and I think it was a good lesson in how to collaborate with experts. My point wasn't to say Mark did anything wrong, just giving an idea of how someone on the other side would feel if someone wanting to collaborate micromanaged you on a subject you're an expert in but they have no knowledge about.
You might think Mark's direction about music is quite abstract, actually I think it's quite clear. The first music is always the hardest, and require the most effort to get it right.
I honestly think there is a bit much going on in that level 1 sound track. Maybe play a stripped dowm version in the first few rooms before playing the full version in the 2nd half of the level. This would somewhat reflect the player feelings of first being confused but once you get the hang of it, both you and the music becomes more advanced together. Super amazing track!
it's weird because mind over magnet is a game that would have been free on newgrounds. It's a cool and strange time that indie devs charge so much for games that are equivalent to passion projects in the late 2000s
I think the reason so many people talked about those tiny details isn’t because your demo was so amazing no one had any other thoughts, but because it was pretty good AND a demo. A lot of the things people noticed were probably things that are logically better in a full game than a demo.
Mark. Crazy idea. What if you layered the music to introduce a new element each time the player solves a new part of the puzzle? To increase the reward for discovering solutions.
this video helped me so much with my sound design work. I used austin's exact phrasing when asking my team what sound they wanted. they don't know sound, but they do know the story they're trying to tell, and just hearing their overall vision answered a lot of my questions and gave me so many ideas to get started.
Great devlog as always. Timely for me as well, as I'm starting to get folks asking for a steam page for wishlists. This is gonna help me a lot as I try to figure that out. Cheers, Mark!
when you mentioned the minor water droplet issue, before i noticed the droplet, i was getting super confused about the orientation of the barred sewer. my mind still sometimes has an issue figuring out which way it's meant to be facing exactly. it's far from major, and i cannot explain why my mind seemingly has an issue with that specific sewer.
Video idea: I found some posts from you from like 6 years ago about the limitations of context-sensitive buttons and how they standardize player interaction. In Wizardry 8, Might&Magic 6, 7 and 8, and Arx Fatalis, you could click directly on buttons and objects in the environment to interact with them, and in some, you had to drag inventory items to world objects to combine, puzzle, etc., instead of simple button-presses, be it context-sensitive buttons or pressing E to interact with everything, or X to autoloot. It was like how Amnesia's direct physics interactions, door physics, etc. were just more immersive than more limiting RPGs.
Mind Over Magnet was one of the best I played in the last Next Fest. I even featured it on my vídeo about the event, and I would never have done so on a bad demo, even if it's from one of my fav yt channels. So I think overall you did an amazing job!
The music creation process as a process of translation and iteration is a great way to look at it. One of my harmony teachers was the band director for one of the most successful singer/songwriters ever, and he would tell us stories on how he was not good at all with music theory, but he would imagine an idea for a song arrangement, hum and describe it to the director, and his job was to translate it to sheet music that the band could play. It always turned out that his ideas would sound incredible once they were translated and performed.
As someone who eventually wants to get into development myself, it's been very enjoyable watching your videos on the process of this game. Very excited to see the game launch!
I want the 3 hour contract video
I'm also strange enough to find contract(law) endlessly engaging.
Me 2
Contracts are an integral and key part of making games!
I would love to watch a video about an amateur writing up a contract like that.
Unironically that would be incredibly helpful to have around
hey, zach here-thanks for the kind words! it's been a pleasure to work on the soundtrack and i'm excited for what's to come ◡̈
You passed the vibe check
Yayyyyyy nice person :]
How did smily?...witch?
@@honeyboyjones fellow Zack/Zach woaaaaaa
@@rodo1252Some people are given access to incredibly secret CIA technology which allows them to make new languages, symbols and metaphors on the fly. What you are seeing is the result of many powers each vying for control.
I would 100% love a 3 hour spin off about writing a legal contract
I hereby sign this petition
seconded!
true!
The legal stuff is what I find the most tedious about any creative endeavor
it seems really important and I don't see many people talking through it. Something to turn to to learn from would be great (although obviously not really legal advice! just, experienced tips)
Mark, I am BEGGING you to make a video about writing up contracts for freelance artists working on a game. Also contractor fees. It’s something that desperately needs some good demystifying in the games space.
so true
Maybe get in touch with somebody like Richard Hoeg? He does contract law as a career.
Agreed, I'm soloing a game right now and have very little clue what to do on the I need to hire someone front, and my art skills are a lot worse than Marks...
I have always found that anything to do with money very mystified, and people should be more open about it
might be good to team up with a legal man
One very minor suggestion for repetative sounds like the nuts and bolts hitting surfaces, you should randomize the pitch of each one a bit so they don't run together. If you are randomizing the pitch already, crank it higher, because it wasn't obvious. The nuts and bolts sounded like high pitched bubble wrap when they could sound almost musical. Bonus points if you actually make them musical by pitching them to the scale of the music.
reply to boost this comment, very much agree
+
@@diggory4ii385 Up you go!
Yes yes yes as a musician this is a brilliant idea
+
I absolutely want a spin-off video about the "...exhilarating fun of making a legal document."
I second this opinion
writing contracts is something worthwhile learning - why not make a video about it
Imagine it would be a Mad Libs sort of game.
I would too, but maybe not a three hour video unless it's really well paced and covered many subjects.
Agreed. I kind of assumed that 3 hours was an exaggeration.
I mean, legal nonsense is important, and often not talked about, so absolutely do we want a video on that! Advice, pitfalls, feel, how to make it feel fair to yourself and whomever you're hiring.
Im with you there, I'm probably months away from releasing my own little project, but it would be nice to know all the boring stuff upfront, legal, publishing, how the hell do I do updates for games??? All that stuff.
There's so many little things that I've never known I'd need to know about the responsibilities of a game developer, especially solo.
I agree. Please make a 3-hour video.
"Better than it actually is" is very telling, Mark lol
You wouldn't believe how boring and hokey some of your favorite movies seem with the music stripped out. Doesn't mean they're secretly bad movies getting away with something. The music is an integral part of the experience! You don't judge the merits of an audio visual work without the audio!
Music isn't cheating! It is _part of the game,_ so having music doesn't "fake" being better, it really honestly does make it better
That 'Mummy returns' (iirc) trailer they released without half the soundtrack is still so, so funny all these years later.
In the DVD release of _Harry Potter 5_ (Order of the Phoenix), one of the bonuses was that you could play a few scenes from the film but with your own choice of background music, just to compare how different the result may feel.
@@CyborusYT FYI, applying YT comment italics around commas require you to include the comma in the block. E.g. _like this,_
@@sammoore2242 oh man just remembering this makes me giggle 😂 edit: THAT WAS 7 YEARS AGO WHAT
I absolutely want a 3 hour video about legal contracts. That's part of the process, and just like marketing and money, will also be good for making sure burgeoning developers (and those who work for them) are behaving ethically.
Same. Would LOVE to see Mark's "diagram-y" explanation style applied to contracts. Like the ultimate Boss Keys episode haha
They may not even act intentionally wrong, but a lot of people misunderstand what contracts do. They view them as ugly, nasty pieces that accuse them of being a crook when that's the furthest thing from the truth. Yes there are abusive contracts but you don't have to participate like that. At their core, it's your chance to define the working relationship and remove anxiety over many possible unknowns. It sets the expectations so you know how the interaction will go and how work will progress. It clarifies your financial burdens and pay periods. And yes, it does settle who owns what and in what way, so when the job is done, you can both walk away happy with what you've produced.
As a Brazilian gamer & lawyer, I legitimately can't wait for that 3-hour-long breakdown of writing a dev contract.
The feedback about the nuts and bolts making sound is so spot on as one of those weird little things that does a lot. I love it when im playing a game and all the little bits and bobs make noise
The Oddly Satisfying internet trends exist for a reason. Sometimes a person will get bored and throw those nuts and bolts around just to make noise!
Reminds me of Hollow Knight's breakable environment. I can't imagine that game without it.
@@_JustMonikaThere are even several skips used in speedruns that wouldn’t exist without it
This is a big reason why a lot of people didn't like the Zoombinis remake - they didn't take care of the details.
They need a little more randomization in volume and pitch. Not a lot, but to really sell the idea of a lot of differently shaped bits scattering around.
dude when the nuts and bolts made sound i went "oooohhhh yes" thats such a small detail that will stick out to everyone who plays it when they look back on the game
totally agree! Now they just have to rotate a bit whenever they collide with the ground and jump again into the air
Stuff like this is what separates out great games. I've always thought of it as "Nintendo" polish. Like even the smallest details are given attention to. When Mario hits a cactus, he gets a spike in his nose. It's just one of many little details that won't happen again. Nintendo could've just stuck to a generic damage animation, but they customized it for an otherwise trivial situation.
ok for my explanations why the water and nuts/bolts were a common issue:
water - while rotational motion is generally unnoticed at low framerates, translational motion is very noticed, and often disliked at low framerates. you can actually see this in the door open animation, as the wheel turning seems smooth, but you can tell when each frame starts when the door slides open
nuts/bolts - mass interactivity needs sfx associated, or else it breaks immersion. grass and leaves are a good, common example.
i want a three hour spinoff video about the exhilarating fun of writing a legal document
At 19:00, as a seasoned Game Dev I have to say this is a very advanced way to handle and keep track of feedback. It's important to keep your own opinion on certain matters, even if we usually see how Gamedevs "refuse to listen to us players". Keep up the good work and congrats for getting so much attention on your game.
I have say, the rejection messages from Valve are surprisingly helpful
Hey, Mark, I'm sure you've already heard this or found it out yourself, but you can test your Steam package before it is approved. It should already be in the library for your developer account. Once you're live, you can make a separate branch and do your testing from there. It's a really great way to make sure everything works before submitting to Steam or publishing for the world to see.
Yes, that stress during submitting to Steam constantly can be resolved simply by testing the app right from the Steam Client!!
I'd offer a third explanation for the feedback on "trivial" background stuff: this kind of polish really makes a difference, especially in contrast to the polished, forefront stuff. sometimes it's better to not have these kinds of things unless they're as polished as possible. I think of a fancy meal: the presentation around the plate may not seem "meaningful", but it's better to not do it then to do it in a way that clutters and distracts. of course, you now made it nice and satisfying so it should totally stay. but I think we shouldn't underestimate the impact that "trivial" things have on the perception of a piece.
Product Owner here! Your spreadsheet for feedback and bug reports is actually EXACTLY how we track bugs and feedback during software launches and beta testing. The QA team uses a document very similar to yours to know what the Product team views as effective feedback and priority of fixing. We'll even hide lines so that the Dev team only works on certain priority levels. Great job!
I worked with QA teams for a little bit and was going to say the same thing.
I work at a major tech company and it's pretty much exactly our ticketing system, with the only difference being that our severity numbers being reversed, like Defcon
There's an important distinction, though, between agreement with the feedback and priority or severity of the issue.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned about this platform, it’s to never ask the audience if they’d watch a video idea unless you’re certain you’d be willing to make it, because no matter how niche or boring you think it is, your audience will absolutely, overwhelmingly agree to its development.
In terms of music's contribution to a game I always remember Jason Jones comment about Martin O'Donell , "Everything he does makes everything we do 50 percent better and he's the only one in the team with that much contribution "
13:22 aren't his hands backwards?
Yes
100% backward.👀
Good catch
bro... he would have been happier not knowing, you know what kind of person he is, now hes going to redo the whole thing. -1 week
it's actually not that his hands are backwards, it's that they didn't twist around when raising his arms so he's holding the magnet with like, his knuckles. the model's hands face the right way when the arms are down. and the thing is, the in game sprite holds the magnet in the same way with the little thumb pixel going the wrong way, but it looks more natural because you can imagine it as like a robot clamp instead of a mitten hand
This is the equivalent of, "I needed help figuring out this camera angle, so I called Steven Spielberg..." Austin Wintory is a delight.
Okay but hearing the nuts and bolts make noise when they fall actually was weirdly satisfying
A 3 hour video about the exhilarating fun of making a legal document sounds cool📚⚖️
3 hour contract video is needed
*LegalEagle has entered the chat.*
i second this
Would love a deep dive into contracts and pricing. Thats a gritty but massively important detail most are stuck throwing themselves at blindly.
2:37 Don't let the impostor syndrome get the better of you. Don't compare yourself to veterans of each of the fields. NOBODY can compare to the experts in each field. You are making a real game by yourself and wear a bunch of hats all at the same time. That's an achievement not many people reach. So pat yourself on the back and don't downplay what you did. ;)
"Jack of all trades, master of none, can oft be better than a master of one."
@@MarsJenkar Only if you have vision. This is the one thing to master if you go jack of all trades. Beyond that, specialization is king in collaborative art. (IMO Mark has not shown himself to have vision, but his very mission statement for this game wasn't compatible with vision to begin with so it remains to be seen until later projects.)
On the subject of contracts and creative work, a talk by Mike Monterio titled "F*#$ You, Pay Me" is a must watch. I found out about it from Adam Savage's Tested channel. It's from a while ago and the context is web development, but it is 100% applicable to any freelance/gig work environment that uses contracts for services rendered. Great for anyone on either side of the contract.
Me, a shackled and cursed Mac user: “there was a next fest?”
is it possible or feasible to dualboot windows? i did it as soon as i got my mac.
shackled and cursed sums up mac OS pretty well.
Simple answer steam deck
I think if you have an intel Mac you can @@thevoid5863
I completely stopped gaming when I switched to Mac. Thank God for the Steam Deck to come out a year later, lol.
I... would like a 3hr video on the legal contract.....
The stuff about the frame rate of the drop and the nuts and bolt is about immersion. It's easy to point to ways immersion is broken, so you can always expect lots of that kind of feedback. That said, I think there was room for more creative interpretation of the feedback you got. Making Uni move faster by default isn't nearly as satisfying as making his movement variable and letting players mess with it as part of the puzzle design, for example. Nearly every really awesome platformer gives players access to speed control in one form or another.
I'm reminded of when I contacted my old college professor about soliciting students to make music for my game. From the 8 students who responded, it was jarring how only 2 bothered commenting on my game (and shared music they thought would be fitting). Given I also didn't know what I was doing, I cared much more about seeking a good potential working relationship than having the best music and chose one of the two.
So IMO if you really want to stand out, just show a little more care like Zach did. While sharing fitting music was nice, indicating that you even looked at the project (rather than just highlighting how great you are) might give you better odds than you'd expect.
I can't believe Tommy Tallarico made all the music and sound effects for your game!
About you saying the music makes the game "better than it actually is" - you can just as easily say that the combination of the game and the music is greater than the sum of its parts.
Im currently doing an internship at a software (not game) company and the guy who gives me tasks and stuff was talking about your videos and how he enjoys your analysis of good design and why certain things are good in the first place.
Made me realize how some content intended/focused on one thing can have a big impacts on a whole range of areas. And also crazy to go full circle from Digital to real life besides friends.
Love your videos!
I think pointing out also the small level stuff makes a lot of sense. While it makes sense to wish for a high level feedback, it is often the small little details that add up to a good game. And often that is something that is a surprisingly large detail while being very difficult to point out. It often feels something is a little of or could need a little polish, but no idea what that is - the sum of small things.
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I remember Yoko Taro (Nier game director) said that the way he approached Keiichi Okabe (the composer) about making music for the game was giving him a bunch of songs and saying "I want something like this", then he would listen and tell what he wanted changed... It is an odd approach but one that ended up working very very well
it's a good day when you catch a GMTK video that's a minute old
It’s a good day when you catch a GMTK video that’s 10 minutes old.
@@Eminence_023It's a good day when you catch a GMTK video that's one hour old.
It’s a good day when you catch a GMTK video
Ideas:
1. Do a post launch video where you process reviews and response to the launch of your game. I feel like that’s part of the development process.
2. After you launch the PC version, do connsole ports so you can learn about that development process and show us what it’s like. I’m sure it’s very different and unique having to work within that environment.
The music behind your game actually makes it from something I was only moderated in playing to something I really want to play. What a great soundtrack sample!
Only one more episode? What about the post release episode. The episode about the first patch to fix the bug that didn't come up during development which is game breaking for a larger part of the player base than you'd expected. The episode about how to write an apology tweet and finally an episode about how to handle your development studio being closed due to sales not meeting the inflated targets that your "publisher" set...
There will definitely be an episode after release, about how the game did!
Who knows if you will see this, but I would just like to say that I appreciate the extra time that goes into the captioning of these videos. It might not seem like it's worth the effort to do (or the money you might spend on having another person do it), but high quality consistent captions is a sign that a creator cares about their audience, and that matters a lot to me :D
I've self-published my first indie game - Holy Stick! (a 2D multiplayer shooter with destructible limbs) on Steam last summer and was hoping that the Next Fest would boost my very low wishlist count. Unfortunately I was quite disappointed. The thing that infuriated me, is that the Next Fest's page was putting the already popular games (like "Lies of P") on top of the list, instead of randomizing things a bit. I ended up having just a couple hundred playthroughts of my demo and an insignificant boost to my wishlists. The release ended up being a total flop, with the game not even having enough reviews to get the Review Rating on the Store page.
Very subtle ad here, but that sounds really interesting, im definitely going to check it out!
This person's commented on this channel several times about other stuff so I doubt self promotion was the main motivation for commenting @@dalemonshateu6948
I like the graphics style of your game, but in my country I have to pay 14,79 Euro which is hella expensive, considering that Stick Fight is 5 Euro and 2 Euro on Sale.
I'm sorry it has been hard to get through the algorithm, it happens and it sucks, but it's out there now. Stay persistent and do your best with timing big updates/dlc/new games to use promotion boosts when there's downtime inbetween hyped releases and it'll get there!
Same thing happened to me two Next Fests ago. However, I was still able to get a decent number of wishlists (for a tiny game) by streaming on the first day. Steam says they feature the games that are streaming in a scheduled slot, and they really do. I also streamed again a few days before Next Fest ended, but Steam was already promoting another event (Yu-Gi-Oh, I believe) and de-prioritized Next Fest games. That was really frustrating! Still, streaming early was a good way to break through the noise.
I feel like a large part of the success you've found with this game has come from having an existing audience in your RUclips channel. Without an existing audience, it doesn't feel like an up-and-coming indie developer has any chance of being noticed.
I really appreciate seeing these videos because it's refreshing to see someone go through the process and admit that it's not all just intuitive and straightforward. There are so many youtube channels out there, big and small, that thrive on explaining games post-hoc with an unwarranted authoritative voice. Thanks for doing this.
Okay, that bolt dropping noise was extremely satisfying. I could see it possibly getting annoying. I don't know but maybe a button to turn it off or quite it down a bit? I think it adds to the atmosphere still tho.
21:23 I'm gonna feedback your feedback and say that this was actually a change for the worse. It draws more attention to the bolts than is really necessary, and more importantly, it's pretty annoying. I'm sure part of what makes it annoying is the sound itself (a quieter, clickier, more atonal sound would be better) but all in all I'd say cut it out or consider limiting how many of them can sound at a time so that it isn't a cacophony of noise. Just my two cents.
It's usually the very little missable details that make a game super good and cool.
Keep up the good work mark looking forward to it.
I think this video really drove home how important it is to talk to people about games (or other projects) you make and build an audience.
Love this series - I'm not a game developer and probably never will be, but I get so much out of seeing someone demystify complex processes like this, and the fact that you take the time to talk about a lot of the more boring aspects of gamedev, like sending feedback emails to collaborators or the trail and error struggle of making your game launch properly through Steam, makes the whole thing come across as so grounded and approachable.
I also love your approach to feedback. I'm a writer and have spent a lot of time in workshops, and I just lit up when I saw your little spreadsheet for feedback. It's pretty much exactly how I go about taking notes in a workshop setting. The most important thing is to take down pretty much everything that gets said, even if you don't think it will matter - this is why the little marker for how much you agreed with the feedback is such a good idea. That, on top of noting how often something comes up independently, can help you really see what catches people's eyes, and it gives you a relatively objective chronicle of feedback from which you can decide on what is and isn't worth changing. Maybe something you initially thought wasn't a big deal keeps coming up enough times that you have to change your mind on it!
Similarly, I liked that you noticed the difference between feedback on things like pacing and structure versus feedback on things like little background details. In writing settings, there's a name for these categories: big-picture issues like plot, structure, themes, and general coherence are called Higher Order Concerns, while nitpicks about grammar and formatting are Lower Order Concerns. The way of thinking about this is that Higher Order Concerns should be addressed first, because, especially in writing, big changes tend to trickle down and make a lot of other little problems appear or disappear, so solving Lower Order Concerns early can be a waste of time when you move something big and get dust all over things anyway. Now, gamedev is very different from writing, so the order of operations for solving higher vs lower problems is probably not comparable, but it might help to add these categories to your toolbelt for sorting feedback. Part of learning in a workshop setting is learning who gives the best feedback about what, so maybe by tracking Higher and Lower Order Concerns, you can get a feel for who you should definitely be listening to when an issue about level speed comes up or who to check in with about nitpicks in the sound design.
I think it's very telling that two wildly different mediums can have so much in common - art is art, after all! I'm glad that your videos can help show the ways that every artist needs to go about sorting through feedback in order to really polish their work. Keep it up, Mark! You're shedding a really interesting light on the realities of indie gamedev.
i see a lot of comments about wanting the 3 hour contract video. Now, im not sure it'd really need to be 3 hours, but - yes Im sorry to say i agree with them. Give it to us! Nobody else would!
from the user side, despite the overwhelming size of nextfests these days, I usually put an afternoon into collecting downloads, and a few afternoons into playing them, checking out aggregators' recommendations as I go. I can't overstate how many unbelievable, life-changing games I have discovered through nextfest. It has shifted my diet from like 60/40 AAA/indie to like easily 80/20 in indie's favor in just a couple years.
The nuts and bolts falling sound was extremely satisfying
I noticed a trend with these videos: You tend to benefit from things like this, which gives you a kick-up of the backside and forces you to polish a part of the game you've been neglecting. Maybe that's a good takeaway as a reason to participate in things like this: motivation.
Here's something worth considering: A super easy way to fix issues with the speed increase breaking puzzles is to add some form of environmental resistance to Uni's movement during those specific puzzles. Fans, conveyor belts, a stick substance on the floor, or even just more magnets would work. This is something I've learned when designing my own games; if you want to restrict the player's abilities to specific areas, make those abilities dependent on the environment. What's great about this approach is that you can also disable these when they are no longer needed to give back the player's freedom (such as turning off the power to these mechanics or washing away in the case of stick floors).
This would still need to be tested to see if player are willing to tolerate a momentary hinderance, but I would explore this approach even if only briefly on the chance they end up being a better solution than reworking all the puzzles that suffer from a faster movement.
It's also worth considering that players may naturally assume these environmental resistances to be a part of the puzzle; an obstacle that they would need to deal with in order to solve the rest. So if you do want these to be togglable for convenience's sake it would be best not to give players the impression that they have any control over it. Make it feel more like a 'convenient coincidence' rather than a result of the player's actions when they are no longer in effect.
2:37 The game would not exist without you, that is your main contribution, that is why you exist.
On the topic of your changes to the water drop's frame rate and the bolts' sound effect: I think that's a good example of "game feel" and "juice". They're small things, and potentially meaningless from a gameplay point-of-view, but people still notice them.
I wouldn’t say those things are trivial. More so they are the final little details of polish that take a game a step further.
0:08 Jesse Pinkman: "MAGNETS!"
tbf alot of the people saying "it's too short" will be the type to expect a wholearse *game* for free so dw about them - when the biggest complaint is "wish there was more" that's good.
Demos have to be long enough to feel the vibe of the game. I prefer my demos somewhere between 2 and 5 hours
wouldn't be shocked if 5 hours is about the length of Mind Over Magnet.
i get that. Still, does a 15 min demo not feel like wasted time? Too short to make yourself familiar and comfortable with the game, and probably shorter than the time you spent browsing for the demo
@@Thyana-ig5noyou must not play a lot of indie games
@@leebass7 there are tons of indie games with 20h+ or 50h+ playtime or longer, and lots of long indie demos, no problem, thanks. I'm actually almost exclusively playing indies
I’d be careful about editing artist’s work - at least, without their permission. I’m sure there was no issue with Mind Over Magnet, but some artists can take it personally when you edit their art, even if you commissioned and own it - it’s just good to let them know that you’ll be editing/adjusting their work.
I INSTANTLY knew he was talking about Austin Wintory. What a gem that man is.
three hour spinoff video please
Always a great day when Mark posts a video
Man went out and bought a pack of quavers for that gag
Let me get that 3 hour spin off 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
give us the 3 hour long legal video
I've learned that Mark loves box art that features the main character jumping forwards
Don't underestimate how important sound effects are to make things feel satisfying.
It would be awesome if you could make a video/tutorial on how to make a contract
My biggest complaint about the demo is it ENDED TO EARLY AHHHHHHHHHHH
I'm honestly shocked it took me this long to find out that Bryan Lee O'Malley did the box art for Fez! that's so cool.
I'd like a 15 minute contract video. I've not seen anything on RUclips as informative as this in a while. Lovely video.
This channel really does it all, entertaining for gamers and helpful for game devs, thank you and well done!
"…pretty demoralizing to see my game hidden under a pile of hundreds and hundreds of amazing indie games."
Sounds like someone's never submitted their game to the GMTK game jam lol
Getting to follow along with this journey has been really fun, and I'm glad to see everything starting to come together! Loved the iteration on the music, specifically, and the lesson that you've got to just expect that back and forth as part of that process. Looking forward to seeing more!
Yes please for the legal document video
always remember to add easter eggs to your game
You should give the bolts a slight reverb effect and mute them slightly/add a low-pass effect to make it feel more satisfying and chill once they hit the ground.
Great video! June steam fest was my first, and I was over the top with results! One thing helped me a lot was that my game showed up in so many categories, that brought me almost half of your steam fest wishlists, but my game was so bad and unpolished compared to yours! It was great looking at chalenges I also faced before and during fest (my game demo got aproved by steam after 3 rejections on last moment also), but explained with great knowledge and depth! Thanks a lot!
The quavers joke probably won't make sense to most US viewers.
I can hear Marceline from Adventure Time ask, "What's a quaver?"
I mean, he held up a bag of them when he said it so even as a US viewer I got it.
@@kevingriffith6011 It's not just that Quavers are a British snack, it's that musical quavers are called 8th notes in the US, so literally both parts of the play on words are foreign to you.
Man, 7 minutes in, and as someone who has been a musician for most of my life, if someone who didn't know how to talk music tried to tell me what tempo or key to create music in, I think I would lose it lmao. Imagine someone who had never looked at code trying to tell you what methods to use in what classes.
Little further in and yeah, that's exactly how I'd want to be talked to.
You could learn a lot from not losing it working with not music people.
Mark probably gets these comments more often because this meant to be "I'm learning something I've never done before" series even though its been going on for years and Mark has gotten quite good at it!
@@No.0.o.0 The example he gives shows that no, no he would not. It'd turn into a class teaching the not-knower. That's not the point of the collaboration.
@@dopaminecloud Yeah, that's more of my point. You bring on an expert to tell them the vision you're looking for, not to micromanage what they do. You wouldn't bring your car into a mechanic and then tell him which of his tools to use and how to use them. For the very few times I've created music for someone, they didn't try to micromanage where notes went or how chord changes worked, but as Mark says, give me the vibe and I can go from there. Same thing with software development since that's what I do for a career, you want the person you're working with to give you requirements for the software, but not to come in and tell you how to write the code line by line. At that point, the person hiring you can do it themselves. Mark did it perfectly, and I think it was a good lesson in how to collaborate with experts. My point wasn't to say Mark did anything wrong, just giving an idea of how someone on the other side would feel if someone wanting to collaborate micromanaged you on a subject you're an expert in but they have no knowledge about.
You might think Mark's direction about music is quite abstract, actually I think it's quite clear.
The first music is always the hardest, and require the most effort to get it right.
I honestly think there is a bit much going on in that level 1 sound track. Maybe play a stripped dowm version in the first few rooms before playing the full version in the 2nd half of the level. This would somewhat reflect the player feelings of first being confused but once you get the hang of it, both you and the music becomes more advanced together.
Super amazing track!
it's weird because mind over magnet is a game that would have been free on newgrounds. It's a cool and strange time that indie devs charge so much for games that are equivalent to passion projects in the late 2000s
Difference between a student project (as most of those passion projects are) and an adult that needs to live.
I think the reason so many people talked about those tiny details isn’t because your demo was so amazing no one had any other thoughts, but because it was pretty good AND a demo. A lot of the things people noticed were probably things that are logically better in a full game than a demo.
Mark. Crazy idea. What if you layered the music to introduce a new element each time the player solves a new part of the puzzle? To increase the reward for discovering solutions.
this video helped me so much with my sound design work. I used austin's exact phrasing when asking my team what sound they wanted. they don't know sound, but they do know the story they're trying to tell, and just hearing their overall vision answered a lot of my questions and gave me so many ideas to get started.
Great devlog as always. Timely for me as well, as I'm starting to get folks asking for a steam page for wishlists. This is gonna help me a lot as I try to figure that out. Cheers, Mark!
Oh please make the video about contracts, I'm currently in a process of going through one and it would help a lot!
when you mentioned the minor water droplet issue, before i noticed the droplet, i was getting super confused about the orientation of the barred sewer. my mind still sometimes has an issue figuring out which way it's meant to be facing exactly. it's far from major, and i cannot explain why my mind seemingly has an issue with that specific sewer.
Video idea: I found some posts from you from like 6 years ago about the limitations of context-sensitive buttons and how they standardize player interaction. In Wizardry 8, Might&Magic 6, 7 and 8, and Arx Fatalis, you could click directly on buttons and objects in the environment to interact with them, and in some, you had to drag inventory items to world objects to combine, puzzle, etc., instead of simple button-presses, be it context-sensitive buttons or pressing E to interact with everything, or X to autoloot. It was like how Amnesia's direct physics interactions, door physics, etc. were just more immersive than more limiting RPGs.
Mind Over Magnet was one of the best I played in the last Next Fest. I even featured it on my vídeo about the event, and I would never have done so on a bad demo, even if it's from one of my fav yt channels. So I think overall you did an amazing job!
The legal side of game creation isn't something talked about much. Would be a really interesting bonus episode of this series!
A video about making a legal contract would actually probably be very helpful to a lot of people
Please do contract/cost video! Would LOVE that spin off.
The music creation process as a process of translation and iteration is a great way to look at it.
One of my harmony teachers was the band director for one of the most successful singer/songwriters ever, and he would tell us stories on how he was not good at all with music theory, but he would imagine an idea for a song arrangement, hum and describe it to the director, and his job was to translate it to sheet music that the band could play. It always turned out that his ideas would sound incredible once they were translated and performed.
I think the 3 hour long legal contract video may actually help a lot of devs out there.
As someone who eventually wants to get into development myself, it's been very enjoyable watching your videos on the process of this game. Very excited to see the game launch!