Tremendous book, work and theory. I was patiently waiting for Hawkins to be on Shermers channel after the book was released and he delivered pretty damn fast. Very much appreciated.
You guys are completely in the dark regarding dejavu experiences. I'm not even sure that what you describe could be dejavu, but whatever. I haven't had dejavu in probably years, but in my teens and early twenties I had a dozen or so every year, I think. It was far more than a sense of familiarity, it was more like a sense of prescience. One moment it kicked in and it made me feel like I knew the subsequent turn of events - as if they already happened to me and I rubberbanded back in time. Rather than an extraplolation of memories and known patterns, I would think that dejavu is more like a glitch on your state of mind. Or perhaps a glitch in memory formation. For example, your brain continously simulates possible futures - as I'm writing this I could accidentally knock over my glass - thanks brain for reminding me of that... But oh wait, due to some error, my brain saved this simulated possible future as a memory that already happened. Anyhow, dejavu is a fun, although a sometimes unnerving experience.
If Jeff's theory of how the brain works is accurate, that is, the fundamental principles of neo-cortex predictive modeling of reality are understood, it should be possible to apply these principles to create a physical system that simulates and demonstrates the concepts that he is postulating. I get the sense, though, that he's not at that stage of understanding yet. The thousand brains theory is a high level framework that lacks an understanding of how organizations of neurons work to built and act on memory predictive models. It's likely that the human brain is but one possible implementation of the underlying principles by which intelligence can be realized. I find that many of Jeff's ideas (reference frames, voting, model hierarchy, temporal prediction, etc) are present in the implementation of advanced autonomous vehicle systems that depend solely on visual sensory input (cameras), e.g., Tesla Autopilot. Although these early AI systems are simple and very limited compared to the human brain, they exhibit many of the characteristics of what we attribute to natural intelligence as Jeff defines it. In some ways, I see Jeff's endeavors, although certainly important and worth pursuing, akin to those who attempted to achieve manned flight by studying the flight mechanics of birds without first understanding the underlying principles of aerodynamics.
This is unbelievable! I guess there will always be people like myself, who do not want to be ultra-smart! I just want to be able to know reality as it is presented before me. But, my aged brain is not in a giant learning mode.
Have not listened to the whole thing yet, but does the host ever get around to asking how all this model-talk converts to qualia in the end? Sure I need all the columns to deduce a cup from haptic signals that turn into electric signals because the columns are trapped inside the skull and cannot "see". But in the end _I_ see a cup. I see a cup-like object even if I am from a remote tribe, have never seen a cup before and don't know it is called a cup. So after all the stages of transduction are completed, how do I see a red cup? Update: At around the 1:25:00 mark, the question does come up - "when do the lights come on?" Unfortunately, Hawkins had nothing substantive to say about it apart from it somehow magically happens once the right ingredients are assembled. This does not address Chalmers' hard problem at all where the point is that we don't even know in principle how physical and mechanical goings-on, no matter how complicated, can produce the sensation redness, the sourness of a lime or the feeling of regret. I can imagine a computer or some future incarnation of a neural net comparing sensory input to its labeled dataset and identifying a "rose", but not how it can ever _experience_ a rose.
the voting analogy is used in data science as well i.e KNN voting algorithm...has nothing to do with election voting en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-nearest_neighbors_algorithm his “low voter turn out” pun has to do with people not using their brains /neurons
Free will needs nothing more than an individual that can think, and then makes a choice without external "wills" interference. We all have free will, without some silly need for a soul since we have an active brain that is the soul. Many animals have free will. But they all can be forced to act against their free will to act in a coerced will.
Fantastic conversation! One of the best on the channel! On free will: if you want to lose weight and thus trying to surpress urges to eat the cake, this "want" is also originating in the unconscious. Unfortunately free will supporters have this caricature view of a primitive and stupid unconscious that is separate from the conscious mind (dualism). But actually it is also the creator of contents of consciousness. The fact you are aware of your thoughts does not mean they did not come from the unconscious (check Thought Entry literature). Where are you thoughts coming from? 😉
Metaphysical Hierarchy: Mystic...beautiful dreaming Magical...harmony Musical...language of music Artistic...pictures/metaphors Poetic...language of words Numerical...language of numbers Mystics create the most joy (smart). Accountants create the least joy (ignorant). Yet accountants rule the world (ignorant). Ever notice that beings who speak in the language of music can create joy that energizes thousands of beings to celebrate and dance? Ever notice that corpses who speak with brain numbing, soul sucking numbers do the exact opposite? Sanction, starve, torture, murder and bomb (wheeeee)! Ignorance (hate) is bliss for vampires (greed). But not much fun for the humans (love) who they are sucking the joy out of. Light and truth (love) cause vampires (greed) great pain and suffering. That's why the words society (socialism). "care for all" and "green new deal" cause the counting corpses that rule US such misery. The evangelical monsters are "desperate" to control a darkship called the Whitehouse. Because working in the dark to suck the joy out of life and devour earth is the only way that the loveless, lifeless parasites can survive and thrive. Unlike earthling poets, artists, musicians, mystics, human beings and creators of joy...the counting corpses that rule US can't create harmony (real intelligence) because vampires (greed) are ignorant (dead).
His camera/image is slightly out of sync with the audio and he keeps his mouth closed when speaking & hardly ever looks at the camera. Almost as if he’s distracted or disassociated. The audio is the worst & maybe I’m looking for excuses. IDK...
Jeff is close, with the fundamental math being ignored. Consciousness is not a red herring, in any machine. It is the 1D radiation packets that make up matter when time and geometrically stamped. If you cannot materially resolve the static Skin Effect rendering perturbations in perception, then the Natural Complexity gates required for what you seek to achieve cannot be accomplished. My toaster oven sometimes acts funny, and I found the design flaw; rain and humidity usually is a catalyst. If you put a modular arithmetic knob, with an embedded EM processing conductive contact, into a metallic housing, the static effect IN THE SYSTEM in 1D is what keeps us in binary. I've had to rotate the charge out of the system on the washing machine too. The contact IS contacted, but the static charge sticks the EM states of the system dynamically. NOW I know why toaster ovens sometimes turn on by themselves. Process this Weiner. Make your own Brownian Motion joke. I'll be playing with my Python.
@@morbidmanmusic Jeff is and has been since I curated his life's work. Read what the face on the screen tells you to. The fact that you can't understand anything can be performatively denied with speech acts. I take credit for the 1D bio-electric circuit he identified in the columnar structures of the neocortex. My new and perfectly descriptive of reality math model. Dimensional Gauge Symmetry. You must me named Eaton Cox.
Why do you assume that intelligence is created by cells in the brain? That's kind of cartoonish. The brain isn't a thing that screws onto the rest of the nervous system. It is of a piece with the nervous system. I don't know that cells in our fingertips create intelligence, but our hands can learn things and do them without our conscious supervision. They also collect information about their immediate environment, automatically.
Great interview. I love Jeff’s thinking, it is very clear.
Wish the audio quality was a lot better.
Thank you, Mr. Shermer. Your posts are among the very few that I find I can safely hit the thumbs up for before it even begins.
One of the most underrated podcasts. You're doing a great job, Michael! Wonderful guests!
Amazing. We are coming so far so fast. Computer modelling is going to be amazing for neuroscience. Thanks Jeff and Mike!
Tremendous book, work and theory. I was patiently waiting for Hawkins to be on Shermers channel after the book was released and he delivered pretty damn fast. Very much appreciated.
You guys are completely in the dark regarding dejavu experiences.
I'm not even sure that what you describe could be dejavu, but whatever.
I haven't had dejavu in probably years, but in my teens and early twenties I had a dozen or so every year, I think.
It was far more than a sense of familiarity, it was more like a sense of prescience. One moment it kicked in and it made me feel like I knew the subsequent turn of events - as if they already happened to me and I rubberbanded back in time.
Rather than an extraplolation of memories and known patterns, I would think that dejavu is more like a glitch on your state of mind.
Or perhaps a glitch in memory formation. For example, your brain continously simulates possible futures - as I'm writing this I could accidentally knock over my glass - thanks brain for reminding me of that... But oh wait, due to some error, my brain saved this simulated possible future as a memory that already happened.
Anyhow, dejavu is a fun, although a sometimes unnerving experience.
I have itmall thentime now. Alzheimer's is linked to it.
Great discussion Michael Shermer and Jeff Hawkins.. very interesting and enjoyable! I will get the book.
If Jeff's theory of how the brain works is accurate, that is, the fundamental principles of neo-cortex predictive modeling of reality are understood, it should be possible to apply these principles to create a physical system that simulates and demonstrates the concepts that he is postulating. I get the sense, though, that he's not at that stage of understanding yet. The thousand brains theory is a high level framework that lacks an understanding of how organizations of neurons work to built and act on memory predictive models. It's likely that the human brain is but one possible implementation of the underlying principles by which intelligence can be realized. I find that many of Jeff's ideas (reference frames, voting, model hierarchy, temporal prediction, etc) are present in the implementation of advanced autonomous vehicle systems that depend solely on visual sensory input (cameras), e.g., Tesla Autopilot. Although these early AI systems are simple and very limited compared to the human brain, they exhibit many of the characteristics of what we attribute to natural intelligence as Jeff defines it. In some ways, I see Jeff's endeavors, although certainly important and worth pursuing, akin to those who attempted to achieve manned flight by studying the flight mechanics of birds without first understanding the underlying principles of aerodynamics.
Great 👍 interview. Jeff needs a better microphone 🎙. Terrible audio. I can barely understand him at normal speed.
“The (physical) modeling of the world” sounds like what I have come to understand as ‘spacial relations’, a capacity that can be tested.
Why does Jeff’s name have two lower case f’s？Probably a misspell, but just wondering.
fortissimo!
Mr. Shermer asked excellent questions, some of which did not seem to be answered coherently (e.g., the question about the form of columns).
This is unbelievable! I guess there will always be people like myself, who do not want to be ultra-smart! I just want to be able to know reality as it is presented before me. But, my aged brain is not in a giant learning mode.
Can you point to any sources for the implications of this research on education and learning theory? This is fascinating.
Would love to hear what he thinks about the Mesh-code mechanical theory of memory.
Motion is emotion. You can't study the brain without the moment emotion. We are not robots we are human.
Have not listened to the whole thing yet, but does the host ever get around to asking how all this model-talk converts to qualia in the end? Sure I need all the columns to deduce a cup from haptic signals that turn into electric signals because the columns are trapped inside the skull and cannot "see". But in the end _I_ see a cup. I see a cup-like object even if I am from a remote tribe, have never seen a cup before and don't know it is called a cup. So after all the stages of transduction are completed, how do I see a red cup?
Update: At around the 1:25:00 mark, the question does come up - "when do the lights come on?" Unfortunately, Hawkins had nothing substantive to say about it apart from it somehow magically happens once the right ingredients are assembled. This does not address Chalmers' hard problem at all where the point is that we don't even know in principle how physical and mechanical goings-on, no matter how complicated, can produce the sensation redness, the sourness of a lime or the feeling of regret. I can imagine a computer or some future incarnation of a neural net comparing sensory input to its labeled dataset and identifying a "rose", but not how it can ever _experience_ a rose.
Low voter turn-out is an issue with many of the brains I've met.
Why vote? It’s all rigged anyway! 🤯🤯🤯🤡🤡🤡🌍🌍🌍
the voting analogy is used in data science as well i.e KNN voting algorithm...has nothing to do with election voting en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-nearest_neighbors_algorithm
his “low voter turn out” pun has to do with people not using their brains /neurons
Free will needs nothing more than an individual that can think, and then makes a choice without external "wills" interference. We all have free will, without some silly need for a soul since we have an active brain that is the soul. Many animals have free will. But they all can be forced to act against their free will to act in a coerced will.
It's a shame the audio is so bad.
The brain works on electrical. Additives =.+ and negative sources = .add rna ?
Fantastic conversation! One of the best on the channel! On free will: if you want to lose weight and thus trying to surpress urges to eat the cake, this "want" is also originating in the unconscious. Unfortunately free will supporters have this caricature view of a primitive and stupid unconscious that is separate from the conscious mind (dualism). But actually it is also the creator of contents of consciousness. The fact you are aware of your thoughts does not mean they did not come from the unconscious (check Thought Entry literature). Where are you thoughts coming from? 😉
Metaphysical Hierarchy:
Mystic...beautiful dreaming
Magical...harmony
Musical...language of music
Artistic...pictures/metaphors
Poetic...language of words
Numerical...language of numbers
Mystics create the most joy (smart). Accountants create the least joy (ignorant). Yet accountants rule the world (ignorant).
Ever notice that beings who speak in the language of music can create joy that energizes thousands of beings to celebrate and dance?
Ever notice that corpses who speak with brain numbing, soul sucking numbers do the exact opposite?
Sanction, starve, torture, murder and bomb (wheeeee)! Ignorance (hate) is bliss for vampires (greed). But not much fun for the humans (love) who they are sucking the joy out of.
Light and truth (love) cause vampires (greed) great pain and suffering. That's why the words society (socialism). "care for all" and "green new deal" cause the counting corpses that rule US such misery.
The evangelical monsters are "desperate" to control a darkship called the Whitehouse. Because working in the dark to suck the joy out of life and devour earth is the only way that the loveless, lifeless parasites can survive and thrive.
Unlike earthling poets, artists, musicians, mystics, human beings and creators of joy...the counting corpses that rule US can't create harmony (real intelligence) because vampires (greed) are ignorant (dead).
Why are the f's lower case? It's driving me nuts!
I don't get it.
Why do I find his voice difficult to follow? Is it just him speaking a touch fast?
I think it has to do with the shape of his mouth, jaw and throat. They’re not optimally organized to enunciate words.
His camera/image is slightly out of sync with the audio and he keeps his mouth closed when speaking & hardly ever looks at the camera. Almost as if he’s distracted or disassociated. The audio is the worst & maybe I’m looking for excuses. IDK...
@@christopherhamilton3621 bad audio, for sure.
The audio has undergone serious noise reduction. Once you've worked with noise, you get to recognize that characteristic pumping.
not much intelligence was expended on the audio
very frustrating to miss a lot of the words
Jeff is close, with the fundamental math being ignored. Consciousness is not a red herring, in any machine. It is the 1D radiation packets that make up matter when time and geometrically stamped. If you cannot materially resolve the static Skin Effect rendering perturbations in perception, then the Natural Complexity gates required for what you seek to achieve cannot be accomplished. My toaster oven sometimes acts funny, and I found the design flaw; rain and humidity usually is a catalyst. If you put a modular arithmetic knob, with an embedded EM processing conductive contact, into a metallic housing, the static effect IN THE SYSTEM in 1D is what keeps us in binary. I've had to rotate the charge out of the system on the washing machine too. The contact IS contacted, but the static charge sticks the EM states of the system dynamically. NOW I know why toaster ovens sometimes turn on by themselves. Process this Weiner. Make your own Brownian Motion joke. I'll be playing with my Python.
Nobody is reading all that...
@@morbidmanmusic Jeff is and has been since I curated his life's work. Read what the face on the screen tells you to. The fact that you can't understand anything can be performatively denied with speech acts. I take credit for the 1D bio-electric circuit he identified in the columnar structures of the neocortex. My new and perfectly descriptive of reality math model. Dimensional Gauge Symmetry. You must me named Eaton Cox.
Why do you assume that intelligence is created by cells in the brain? That's kind of cartoonish. The brain isn't a thing that screws onto the rest of the nervous system. It is of a piece with the nervous system. I don't know that cells in our fingertips create intelligence, but our hands can learn things and do them without our conscious supervision. They also collect information about their immediate environment, automatically.
Nice try, but I believe you are out of your depth
using your brain to analyze the brain...🤔
2nd
Third.
Gave up after 20 mins...
1st