TBS: Talk Between Ships
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- In this episode we're talking about a radio communication between ships during World War II.
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The views and opinions expressed in this video are those of the content creator only and may not reflect the views and opinions of the Battleship New Jersey Museum & Memorial, the Home Port Alliance for the USS New Jersey, Inc., its staff, crew, or others. The research presented herein represents the most up-to-date scholarship available to us at the time of filming, but our understanding of the past is constantly evolving. This video is made for entertainment purposes only.
Thanks, Ryan, for giving Aiden a chance to highlite his work on his eagle scout project. Good luck to you young man.
I wish you the best in you endevore.
I was able to make contact with the NJ2BB radio operator onboard New Jersey via HF (20 meter band) several years ago from my house near Seattle during one of their amateur radio events! Got the QSL contact card back to prove it 😎 I was giddy with excitement for days after that.
I also made a contact with the battleship during a Museum Ships On The Air event a few years ago, calling on 20m from Baton Rouge. Also got a contact with the Nuclear Ship Savannah, which I thought was really cool. I'm lucky enough to have the USS Kidd (DD661) where I live, and our ham radio club transmits from there often.
I've talked to New Zealand and Australia on 10 and 11 meter I'm in Yakima Washington
NJ2BB was the organizer of the museum ships weekend a few weeks ago, and over 100 ships and facilities participated. It is a nice event because it isn’t a contest, so you might have a bit more conversation than “You’re 5-9 New Jersey. Thank you. QRZ NJ2BB.”
Good job Alden, and good luck from a guy who earned his Eagle rank 60 years ago. So I'm old enough to have used PRC-6 radios all the way to SINCGARS. But then I'm an Army guy. Keep up the good work Ryan.
When I started my fire department career in 1983 we were using VHF radios with 2 channels. That changed to UHF then UHF with repeaters with 4 channels. When I retired in 2012 it was a multi-channel 800mhz trunked system with repeaters. Quite the change over 30 years.
And now many departments us mobile CAD interfaces on tablets or computers so routine traffic isn't even sent by voice anymore.
@@stephenbritton9297in the late 2000s my EMS agency had MDTs in all the ambulances and finally made the move to stop voicing all status changes on the radio. Crews could select their own hospital destination as well as transport priority so the only radio traffic was dispatch acknowledging the MDTs updates. This allowed the crew to know the update went through plus allowed EMS supervisors and other crews to maintain situational awareness.
Around 2000 my fire department started rolling out in truck terminals but they weren’t tied in to dispatch nor did they have internet connectivity initially, but what they did have was a lot of mapping data on fire hydrants and their rated flow rate, all our pre plans, MSDS / hazmat info, and etc which was REALLY cool to have. After a few years we got a proper MDT linked to dispatch that would automatically route us to a call which was REALLY nifty at the time to be able to compare ETAs for different routes as opposed to manually routing off a map book.
Anyway, communications technology has made huge changes in the way public safety operates over the last 20 years.
One final example, when I first started in fire/EMS it was strict forbidden to take any pictures of the scene due to the recent implementation of HIPAA in 1996. Finally by the time smart phones rolled out the medical value of scene documentation was finally realized; we could take pictures to show the trauma team at the ER actual pictures of a crashed vehicle and the overall scene so they could better understand the forces involved and adjust their process accordingly. It’s one thing to tell the ER doc a car had catastrophic damage, but showing them a picture of a full size car split in half with a passengers head popped like a pumpkin with brain matter splattered everywhere paints a much more complete picture. Sometimes words really cannot convert the massive forces involved.
Good luck, Aiden! You have my support as an Eagle Scout. Thank you for posting, Ryan / @Battleship New Jersey! Our troop in Northern NJ used to visit Battleship Massachusetts regularly. Keep up the good work!
Great to see something from the radio room! I am both a ham radio operator and a broadcast engineer, so RF systems of any type are interesting to learn about. I have operated from the WWII submarine Cobia in Manitowoc, Wisconsin and the Civilian Queen Mary. If I lived anywhere close to a museum ship, you can bet I would be one of those 'Saturday volunteers' you mention, as I like the older technologies. It is on my bucket list to visit the New Jersey,. Even though the Iowa is closer, your enthusiastic way of sharing this treasure with everyone makes me want to see and learn more!
TBS radios were still physically large, but they used a telephone-like handset with a push-to-talk button. TBS radios have 5 to 8 channels to select from. The handsets were scattered throughout the ship with patch panel access to the multiple TBS radios. VHF frequencies and AM (amplitude modulation) were used.
You are correct, Ryan described it as a much higher frequency sound wave. I looked up a transceiver and apparently, it's VHF AM between 60 to 80 mhz using a crystal to control frequency. VHF signals do not bounce off the ionosphere, it punches through and goes off into space.
@@davidbarry494But they had one problem (unknown to them at the time). Ducting, very occasionally at those frequencies and on up to 140 -170mhz. that would allow the Japanese to intercept and use the intercept to their advantage. I sorta doubt they were ever able to take advantage of this. Doubt they even had the equipment to intercept those frequencies.
Having a Ham radio license, I was allowed to use the radio NS7DD on the USS Turner Joy.
Interesting post. I am a ham radio operator. The navy shut down ham radio hobby in WW1 on concerns of the enemy could listen to secret info. In WW2 the navy saw the value of Ham operators and enlisted operators to the war effort. The navy was on the cutting edge of R F Technolgy back then in regard to V H F communication.
Always happy to see more of the radio room. NEW JERSEY's station NJ2BB participated in Museum Ships On The Air from drydock this year!
For a tragic example of what can happen when a convoy doesn't have clear communication between ships read up on the 'battle' of May Island during The Great War. Two submarines and 104 souls went down without engaging with the enemy.
You should see the newest radios that the military uses. A radio transmission being encoded doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of how encoded the radios are now. They work so good even the guys using them can get them to talk between radios!!
Ryan asked if I've ever used walkie-talkies. In the pre-cell-phone days, some friends from church convoyed with us on vacation in two cars, and we used short-range radios to stay in touch. Someone else nearby was using the same channel, and she was talking to her child. "Do you want to take a nap?" she kept asking. So I keyed "Transmit" and said "No" in my deepest bass voice. That was the end of that dialog. But it also shows how someone could get onto an enemy frequency to cause chaos in wartime; the British actually tried that to disrupt German night-fighter communications.
FYI - walkie-talkies of WWII were large radio boxes carried back-pack style, while the handie-talkies are the hand held radios that looked like a large rectangular box with the antenna sticking up.
Yes I have. As a ham radio operator I talk quite a bit on the radio at times. I have a lot of old WWII, Korean and Vietnam war era radios as well.
Marine VHF is similar. The transmit distance is usually not much more than the horizon, but sailboats with a mast head antenna can go considerably farther. Once I did a "radio check" and got a clear reply from a boater around 70 miles away... but that must have been due to unusual atmospheric conditions. Boaters need to learn the calling etiquette and rules, like staying off the distress Channel 16 ... or get into trouble with the Coast Guard. Listen for a while on the open Channel 68 , and you will soon pick up the formula on how to make a proper call. Having a VHF aboard can save the lives of you and your passengers... remember there are no cell towers out there.
As an old Army vet, there's a commo joke somewhere in there about getting a Private to go ask the Platoon Sergeant for a PRC-E7... 😉
This was just a joy to watch. The WW2 era ARRL manuals etc were my happiness. I love the old 'boat anchors' and really appreciate the glimpse into New Jersey's radio room. Best wishes to the Eagle scout in his endeavours !
As a ham radio operator, I found this interesting. I had the opportunity to operate on the USS North Carolina earlier this year. What an experience that was. The radio was a modern ham radio, but it used the original coax and antenna to the ship.
As an aviator, I used UHF and HF many times. Once when airborne off San Francisco I listened to a flight of B-52s check in with Anderson Airways being just airborne out of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. The reception was crystal clear and like they were right near us.
Nice job Aiden on the benches! Good luck!
Nice to see an Eagle Project helping the ship and community.
I finally made my way to visit the Battleship today! Awesome ship! Now for my 900 miles or so back home haha. Would definitely visit again
Glad you enjoyed! Hope you got to see everything you wanted to see!
VHF and above radio waves do reach the ionosphere it is just that they usually pass straight through, other wise satellite communication would not work.
True
That is why if you do your doppler shift calculations correctly, you can use the 2m band repeater station on ISS.
One of my Uncles served during WW II serving in the Royal Welch Fusiliers. For some tactical messages they used Welsh on the Radio & Telephone as by the time the Germans had translated it the Battle had moved on. It worked well and was a boost to morale raising the spirits of any Allied Units and annoying the Germans.
Aiden - Great job on the benches! Good luck on your BoR!
Awesome job on those bench's Aiden they look really great!
Very cool Eagle Project! Mine was re-carpeting the church that hosted our troop meetings!!
Aiden... great project and great job with your request.
Ryan, great job describing how ships found a way to communicate with each other with a battle group. That was very interesting.
I was a radioman aboard USS ORLECK DD-886. Which is now a museum ship in Jacksonville, Florida.
I remember when the occasional telephone pole had a locked box with a direct line telephone, red for the fire department and blue for the police to use. At one time the dispatchers could make a one way call on the AM frequency that all, well most, cars had a radio for and the firemen/officers would find the closest phone box and call in. Taxi cabs had the same thing, but most of their phones were in business that had customers that needed a ride, possibly why taxi dispatches were called bells. The company I worked for in the seventies still had working phone boxes at a couple of taxi stands.
Boy would I ever like to sit down at those radios.
73s KE7GGW
Super interesting. The fog of war in the WW2 Pacific naval war was not just the weather.
The radio comms compartments have to be a Farriday cage for security with screened cables nowadays , I don't know if that sort of security was used in WW2 . I expect the sets originally used valves which must be pretty hard for the volunteers to get hold of . Ships aren't very successful for using personal radios if you are working with someone in another location . I found it's usually easier with sound power phones .
TBS was in the clear until spread spectrum frequency hopping system were developed. The actress Hedy Lamarr was co-inventor of both types of systems.
That's 'Hedley'.
@@michaelsommers2356 No, it's Hedy
@@johnshepherd9676 I take it you've never seen the movie _Blazing Saddles._
A friend's dog was named Heddy. I called her Hedly!@@michaelsommers2356
My dad was aboard the uSS Hornet troop transport during the Korean War, he was sent to Japan as an embarkaton Officer.
He was in the Army but was trained by the Marines for Signal Corp as a Captain, most don't understand the radio is more about sending a coded message then about talking.
It was VERY easy to get court martialled for operating the radio incorrectly.
SINCGARS, when you go out of range from the net master radio for 3 days, then come back within range of friendly forces.
Fun times...
Some years ago, I worked at a church camp. We used walkie talkies across the property, and other than some terrain issues, it was pretty effective. However, every once in a while, we picked up radio traffic from a nearby interstate. When that happened, we had to turn the volume down quickly, because the language was sometimes too salty for young ears.
Short range TBS is used in the book "The Good Shepard" by C.S. Forester, and the movie version "Greyhound".
i had some star trek walkie talkies back in the day. still got 1 of them.
Nice job Aidan
7:05 @battleshipnewjersey Great video Ryan! Many museum ships including BB35 Texas, CV16 Lexington, SS234 Cavalla and Stewart (DE-238) have amateur radio clubs that restore, maintain, and operate the radio equipment onboard during Museum Ship Weekend, Pearl Harbor Day and other times. I am a ham and have make contact (Texas to Hawaii) with the Missouri during one of these events. Maybe one day I’ll catch the Big J operating! 73 de AL5J
Love keeping up with your videos from Australia wish I can come see the battleship one day discovered your channel during the drydock period!
I grew up with two way or as we called it CB and to this day I'm still listening.
The first ship that i was stationed on, USS Oxford AGTR 1, was the first ship at sea to send and receive a signal bounced off the moon from a land base.
That radio room kind of looks like my basement… 😊
CB/GMRS user
Love my radio 🤙
You should have one of them hams in this video to explain the difference between low frequency(below 300KHz) Medium frequency(300KHz-3MHZ), high frequency(HF)(3-30MHz), Very High Frequency(VHF)(30-300MH), Ultra High Frequency(UHF)(300MHz-3GHz)
I have listened to Orlando radio stations in Texas if the conditions are right.
Army wise with a PRC77 if you couldn't see em you couldn't communicate was the norm.
Got my ham licence in 1992 and upgraded to the A licence in 1993 after passing my Morse Test. Via the Radio Amateur Emergency Network (RAYNET) got my Marine VHF certificate some years later. Handhelds were useful when on duty with Raynet, but it helped to have someone in charge with a good aerial on a pole and enough power to keep in touch with all us handheld users. (Talking VHF and UHF here)
My grandpa had a radio system at one point and would sometimes get from an island and i remember listening to a guy from that island one tome i was visiting. Was really cool
No mention of semaphore flag or flashing light communication between ships???
In 1984 I was USAF. I was at Yokota AB, Japan, and spent my first 3 months there working in the Air Traffic Control Center for the North Pacific. My job was to take radio messages (automatic morse?) that had been transferred to paper tape, and relay that to the Navy ship refueling center in Yokuska or Yokohama, I forget which.
After that I was moved over to the base communications center where for the next 2 years I was part of a large team handling messages that were transmitted on undersea cables from everywhere around the Pacific and beyond.
The radio transmitter that in the case of Taffy 3 would have been used to send out calls for support which never really came in the strength needed to avoid Taffy 3 suffering major damage
Do you always say the most depressing thing you can think of?
So Wise , Thank You
The first radio signals ever sent are still traveling outward into space. Radio signals, unless affected by outside things like atmospheric conditions travel in a straight line. Your home satellite internet uplink is usually only 1 watt in power but it reaches a satellite 22,000 miles above the earth. Radio waves know no boundaries when transmitted into the air so there are really no boundaries on who is listening.
Remember,
Light energy, aka EMP or photons to you trekies, disappates exponentially.
@@NorthWoodsHiker But it can be seen billions of years later.
We had toy walkie talkies when I was a kid in the 70s, range was terrible, 500 feet if we were lucky. That was also around the time CB radios were hot and so many people put them in their cars, my uncle had them in his cars and in his house.
New Jersey has many boat anchors in that radio room. 🤣
I don’t know what the battle ships did, but the Gato class fleet boat submarines could unclutch their SJ surface search radar and leave it on a fixed target … another friendly sub for example. The radar operator had a Morse code key which he could use to turn the radar beam on and off thus sending Morse code to another sub over the radar beam. The microwave beam is line of sight and the curvature of the earth means the other side drops below visibility about 20 miles out. The radar beam can be set to be only a few mils wide, thus making it fairly difficult for the enemy to spot, intercept or jam. Radar isn’t totally immune to jamming. There were a number of methods used by both the Germans and the Japanese to create false echoes or a general fog on the ‘scope to make it difficult to pick out targets. Experienced operators could get around jamming by careful operating technique. A lot is explained in _RADTHREE RADAR OPERATORS MANUAL_ which you can find on line.
Paul over on the USS Cod channel recently did a video on the SJ surface search radar, his presentation is very good.
Very cool video Ryan! I'd love a deep dive on these different systems are how exactly they worked from powering up, to encryption, to transceiver antennas and their different band functions around the superstructure. I work in modern military communications and can confirm the freq bands and techniques used back then are still very much so in use today with similar radio etiquette techniques in doctrine that we learned way back when. We've obviously added VHF-High, UHF, SHF, and EHF-E since then, but most of those are used in non-terrestrial strategies.
Even more fun using Single Side Band radio gear.
I know what is inside those awesome receivers and can restore/repair them.
As a kid I was into CB radios, using it mainly to talk to one of my friends who got me into it. That was in the very early '90s, so there was no realistic path to using cell phones. And while the both of us had computers and went online, that wasnt the internet just yet, but BBS systems using dial-up (expensive). So, using radios was the most sensible thing to do as kids to communicate, as you younglings may have seen in retro '80s shows and movies. 😉 That radio may still be somewhere in my mom's basement... gotta check for that. 😅
I have operated from the uss Turner Joy here in Bremerton Washington...kf7aho...
I have used walky talkies, been trained as a radio operator in the army, and we use digital handheld radios at work for some roles
not only frequenzies can be changed, the amplitude (watt's) the sending. a walky-talky opreate a few km, a tv/radio tower cover wast territories ( we going more online today)
plus light what go flags hand in hand in the dark.
I was TACSAT operator in Afghanistan on several missions.
That was a good final question and funny comment
Used singars radios during my time in the Army (training and deployment to Iraq)... Only really got annoying when keys for encryption needed loaded (though usually the radio guys did that when available). On the civilian side Im an amateur radio operator (General class license now, so Id be able to use that gear in your radio room [on the Ham bands of course])
Hi Ryan - Great overview from a portion of Radio Central - BZ. But to correct a common misnomer, the TBS VHF AM radio (one does not appear in the video) had nothing to do with the moniker "Talk Between Ships" or vice-versa. Although it could certainly do that. Some non radio operator in WWII called a TBS that once and the name became a "FACT". haha. In those days the Navy had probably 2 dozen + radio systems with a similar, random 3 letter identifier: TBA, TBB, TBC, TBS, TBT, TDQ, TDZ, TED, TAB, TAJ, TBL, TBY, TBX etc etc. Any and all of them could "Talk Between Ships". That capability was certainly not unique to the TBS or vice versa. The TBS is just the TBS. In all examples the "T" indicated the set was a Transmitter or incorporated one as in a Transceiver.
You' re doing great - keep up the great videos! Haze Gray and Underway.
My dad bought my older brother any I a set of massive walkie talkies. We grew up in the middle of nowhere. They actually had decent range.
"But I also operate within a steel box so your experiences may differ" 😂😂😂
Could you show the IC Switchboard and main gyro sometime? Awesome work you're doing! Thanks!
A friend of mine found a pair of old toy feeling walkie talkies, when we where kids, for some reason they could tune into the frequencies used by the major airport here so we where listening in to the pilots talking with the tower. Luckily them being toys they lacked a transmitter capable enough for us to do anything foolish, but it was still odd.
Morse code with signal lamps as well as semaphore was also used when radio silence was required, OR when radios weren't getting through. Hopefully they are still practiced, along with signal flags, since EMCON (EMissions CONtrol) should still be a thing.
I was an SM2 "skivie waver" when I mustered out in '77. Comms were changing fast and now the SM rating is no more.
Late one night (or early one morning) I am working at RAF Croughton Aeronautical Station in England. I hear “SKYBIRD” (any station) and a tactical call sign. After the usual contact he starts giving me a departure report and all these waypoints I had never heard before. I type it up and read it back to him and ask who I should relay it to, as I am pretty sure Shanwick Oceanic (in Scotland) does not want it. I think it was Manila center, but I am not sure. I advise him I will relay it, but he is in contact with RAF Croughton in England. He responds with, “Oh, I thought you answered Clark Airways!” He was a B-52 who just taken off from Anderson AFB on Guam. I swear he was as clear as if he was on UHF ten miles away! Talk about a HF multi hop transmission.
Was an Et (com). Worked on HF, Crypto, and Hydra. Hydra allowed “walkie talkies” to work anywhere on the ship…. Sort of. Imagine running a large coax cable with tiny little holes in it in every space on the ship. We called it leaky coax. It allows the hand held radios to work anywhere.
Below deck is probably pretty tough for walk-in-talkies. Metal pretty much stops radio in its tracks. Sound powered wired telephones are the way to go for emergency communication outside of the regular switched telephone network on board.
Cool Gear. I have operated from the QE2 in Long Beach, CA. Class Sign K4VMS / AAT9WG AAT9WG is my Military MARS Call sign(was)
I used walkie-talkie radios for several decades in the fire service. Indispensable, but can get misconstrued.
Back in the 1980s I was a foreign student at Pepperdine. I was up and about in a Cessna Cardinal flying at 7,500 over the Santa Monica Bay to get a buffalo burger at Catalina Airport. There below me was a BB and another warship. I changed course SLIGHTLY and began a GENTLE decent to get a better look. The BB came up on guard (121.5 Mhz) "Aircraft that is 40 nautical miles north of Catalina Island identify your self." I did so, feeling that I was just signing a confession leading to a life in federal prison. "You are interfering with naval operations and will depart the area immediately!" A few miles away is Pt. Magu Naval missile test range so fearing there were live missiles in the air I asked meekly: "In which direction?" The BB replied: "I don't care but go away!" So I did. This is how a young Englishman was told to f*** off by a WW2 battleship.....and to think that my high school guidance counselor said I wouldn't amount to anything. (I think the BB was the Iowa but I'm not sure)
More radio stuff please! 73 de KI7GIE
Radio club? That's actually awesome!
What's the oldest and newest thing, that you can prove, on the boat?
Love the videos. It just dawned on me that Ryan looks like Happy Time Harry from ATHF. 😆 Sorry Ryan!
I've used a few radios 🙂, 73.
Hey Ryan, great presentation about the evolution of ship-to-ship comms and the advent of TBS. I’m an amateur radio enthusiast and understand HF, VHF, and UHF coins and signal propagation/attenuation. Question: what type of radio system system is used onboard modern day warships for network and/or person-to-person comms (walkie talkie).
Thank you, long time BB62 fan.
73, K0ATP
TBS is VHF, I believe, so most all the time the signal is line of sight. It does does not reflect off the ionosphere like HF (High Frequency ... A misnomer due to historical reasons) and instead goes right through into space (thus the trick doesn't work now since there are satellites).
Handi-talkies ... designed a few and used a few BUT in a system that extended their range. Designed cell phones also which are not all that different and in fact are much lower power than a typical HT. They also are used in a range extending system (base stations). Your HTs did not have the range extending trick. I did design and had installed on CVs, non-tactical HT systems that worked most anywhere in the ship. They used a base station and 'leaky coax cable' everywhere. The Navy told me I had no need to know what systems would have an antenna near the flight deck antenna and refused to tell me. First system went in... In middle of night, I get a phone call from a friend who is in Naval Reserve (but went full time retiring Captain ...O6....when he was lieutenant) and says, 'Got a problem...I saw your name on the drawings.' They put the antenna near the watts system so it needed a special filter. I could not warn the installers due to restrictions. BUT then I learned a great deal about what I must not know. (the deal is, it's still under secrets act regardless how one came to know)
i dont know if you guys made a video on it yet but how did ships in ww2 confirm the plabes they shot down in the heat of battle
love the videos much love from NC
I did radio aboard dd885 during Vietnam...not always the best. Lf worked best.
Everyone in the modern world has uses radio, it's what allows your iPhone to show you tick tock videos.
Roger Roger. Over Under.
Hello. What are the external differences between the USS New Jersey and her twins? What I mean is, apart from the hull number and the name on the hull, if you put the 4 Iowa Class ships next to each other without the numbers and names, how can you tell the New Jersey from the other 3?
Sorry for my English, I'm French and I use a translator.
CW always gets through!
Good one
Beaty didn’t need any of that 😂
04:05 | RADIO wave ?
T.B.S. model day, Mobile phones or as you say Cell phones. Stephen
Well I started with some childrens walkie-talkies then as an adult I've used CB radios & worked for 2 different companies that used radios until the current job just gave up the radios in favor of cell phones. I've also always thought ham radio would be interesting but figure I'm priced out of that hobby at the current time.
Good to hear you have a radio club operating in the ship's radio room. USS Midway has a very active radio group operating on the second Saturday each month, via HF. N1TEN/San Diego
73S QSL