The turbine blades have had a ceramic thermal barrier coating applied, and now we install them into the J47 engine which will be installed in an F86-F Sabre.
That level of precision engineering is so satisfying. From the ceramic coated blades to the sound of instalment matched with perfect balancing it’s just pure bliss to the mechanically inclined individual.
In my childhood I got a fan blade from a pilot from the legendary aerobatic team Frecce Tricolori during an airshow, because I was sitting in the cockpit of his aircraft and told him all about it and how it is functioning and how to fly this aircraft! He was simply so astonished and fascinated from my knowledge about it and I told him that I am addicted to aircraft's and I am very excited to be in this cockpit and I am twelve years old! He said I should go with him to his car and as we went on his car he opened a suitcase and picked the fan blade out and gave it to me and he said it is a gift for me because I am so interested and well educated in flying and on the attachment point to the engine was a little hole in it with a ring inside and since this day I carry this little fan blade on a dogs collar on my neck and I eat sometimes my ice-cream or yogurt with it! The pilot told me that this little thing was once inside the engine of one of his aircraft's right behind the hottest part of the engine and it was from a Pratt&Whittney engine! I love it so very much and I am so proud to have it! 😍😍😍😍😍Lovely greetings from Sarah 🙋💖😍✈️👍
Dear, AgentJayZ and MrPocketWatch. You guys are so close in your conversation when it comes to the next generation of tubine engines. I'll say no more because the patent is still in the works, and I don't have a Pending Patent, but you'll be pleasantly suprised at the simplitcity and also the complexity of things to come.
So well balanced that adding the miniscule weight of a single blade causes the entire assembly to rotate. Very cool stuff, makes me want to build a functional miniature gas turbine engine.
You probably dont give a shit but does someone know of a method to log back into an Instagram account..? I stupidly forgot the password. I love any tips you can give me.
@@acbulgin2 The more I look at turbine blades the more sense they make of velocity, fluid dynamics, power transfer etc. They seem ‘truth-telling’ somehow 🤔
When this engine was produced, the turbine blades were uncoated. We have applied a modern process to improve the heat tolerance of the blades. I believe a J47 back in the day went for about 55,000.00US
The ceramic coating to the turbine blades of this J47 is an example of "hot rodding". We have taken a modern thermal barrier coating, and have applied it to increase the performance of this old engine. It was never a service bulletin because the technology was developed after the manufacturer stopped supporting the engine. As far as I know, this is the only J47 ever given this upgrade in thermal protection.
@1metiz New? 2500.00 but you can't get these anymore. To obtain one as a souvenir... their value is not measured in money, but in resoucefulness, courage, and a willingness to thrash back the boundaries of the great unknown. An aviation scrap yard would sell them for the price of their mostly nickel content.
I love how terminology differs in the same industry from company to company. We call them dovetail slots, but I tend to agree with you Jay, they look like fir trees.
Dovetails look like dove tails, and they are used on some compressor blades. Firtrees look like Fir trees, and are almost always used on turbine blades, because they are a stronger joint. I am surprised you don't know that they are two different things.
Ceramics have been able to withstand combustion temperatures of jet fuel since before humans wondered what that black stuff was that stuck to their feet while they were looking at the animals trapped in the pit full of it.
Without internal cooling I don’t see why bother with getting YSZ on them other than to prevent oxidation if that’s a concern but then you could just get them bond coated and do just fine. Not sure what aftermarket cost difference looks like but with such thin blades the top 3/4 won’t even know the bottom is being cooled by contact with the ring/hub Also the variance is somewhat on purpose to deal with harmonics. You don’t want every single blade to enter their intrinsic frequencies at once that would end .... poorly. Edit : stop calling them ceramic blades , that’s a whole other thing being worked on with cmcs
@@AgentJayZ I have proper modern blades sitting on my desk and a basic book on transport phenomena but never try to argue with “experience” on 70 YO tech I guess. My literally job is thermal testing these coatings and matls. I get you’re a tech working on these all day and read plenty of literature but I sit and stare at thermal models for how to cool these things what sort of heat transfer they have etc. Nickel has incredibly bad heat transfer. The YSZ does reflect some IR and provides oxidation protection but if you’re not pumping air up the core last half of the blade barely knows the disc is there holding it from a heat transfer perspective so this blade isn’t “cooled” unless I sorely missed some sort of passages on them. Reflecting IR doesn’t provide cooling. It only reduces heat transfer.
@AgentJayZ So there is no locking mechanism such as thread? Does it expand when the temp goes up such that is stays in the position? Or they are hold in place just by centrifugal force? Thanks
Since this is an old video, I may not get an answer. Anyway, I'm assuming you numbered the blades because you wanted to keep the balance of the whole assembly. If those blades were recoated, wouldn't that make the numbering unnecessary? I would assume you'd have to balance the whole thing again since the blade weights would be different -- or would they?
+Mark - The turbine was removed from the engine, then de-bladed. The blades were sent out for TBC coating. The turbine disk was carefully cleaned for at least a day. When the blades returned, they were weighed, and the weight printed on them. The blades were sorted to provide a reasonably even distribution of their weights. The turbine was placed on the balance machine. The blades were installed without locks. The assembly was balanced by moving blades around, and the positions of the blades was recorded 1-2-3 in the disk locations 1-2-3. The blades were removed and placed in storage. The engine was then reassembled in the vertical position to facilitate alignment of the turbine shaft with its bearings and the connection to the compressor. The engine was then placed in the horizontal position, the blades reinstalled in their recorded position ( this video), and locked into place. All this is necessary because the turbine can't be balanced while it is in the engine, and it's easier to install the turbine when the blades are not in it.
AgentJayZ Now that I understand the sequence, makes sense. Thanks for the explanation -- and for all the videos. I worked on round motors; never got to the turbines, so it's nice to see the work.
I have a question, what temperature do these blades withstand? I assume that if there's fuel burning without lack of oxygen, it would melt most materials, like a gas welder.
I've ever seen how they balance the turbine blades in Solar Titan 130. But I wanna know who actually in GE frame balance blade formula ? Do you have any kind of reference ?
Hey, is the turbine stage impulse or reaction? Also, do you know any reasons why they would use a single stage of turbine to drive 12 compressor blades, other than weight savings? Thanks
Nate Baker Turbine blades are combination of impulse and reaction.As for the single stage of turbine driving 12 stages of compressor it's because of the high torque that gets developed on the turbine rotor blades from the high velocity and temperature gas coming out of the combustion chamber. These rotor blades are rotating at about 2000 ft/sec.
The lock pin slot is positioned so that it would not be possible to lock a blade in place backwards. Plus, part of being a turbine engine technician is to check each and every blade in your hand to make sure you have it oriented correctly. A bit like pistons in a car engine. Mechanics don't put them in upside down, do they?
Yea, diamond protects from abrasion in low temp (it can even be layered using a technique called "vapor deposition", but being carbon, if heated in an oxygen rich environment it will burn just like a piece of coal.
Arturo Olvera Not to worry, there's a good high temperature replacement for diamond, it's boron nitride, in its cubic form. After diamond - it's the hardest material we know of. If it's applied properly, any manual tools you coat with it (files, etc.) will last a lifetime. There's a 2013 paper on it, touting it as a "wonder material", as it retains its properties at well over 1000*K (which would be when diamond would burn), and due to diamond's decline in strength, it surpasses diamond at 500*C and above, so for high temperature applications - it's awesome.
What is the advantages of ceramic turbine blades in this case? I have read that the use of ceramics allows for a much higher operating temperature of the turbine, thus increasing efficiency. However, seeing that the disk is made of metal, thus not having the same temperature stability, is temperature not the reason why ceramic blades are used in this case?
It protects the blades from transient temp spikes on startup, which these old turbojets are prone to do, and it lengthens the service life of the blades.
@@AgentJayZ I am guessing only the blades are suceptible to those heat spikes due to their thin geometry? Or are the heat spikes only occuring locally at the blades and not the disk? Interesting none the less😃
Heat enters the blades from their contact with combustion gases. Heat leaves the blades through their contact with the disk, which is not exposed to the combustion heat. If we put a resistor on the input, and don't change the output... we run cooler, and lower any spikes on the input side.
I would never want to operate a jet engine with ceramic blades! Those would shatter like glass and snap right off from the immense g-forces and wind pressure inside the engine!
+triton115 Ahem... they are the original blades, made of nickel alloy, with a ceramic thermal barrier coating applied to protect them from heat. You didn't get that from the video?
+triton115 When you're going to criticize someone, it's usually a good idea to understand what the situation is. A handy hint with my videos: read the description...
May I ask will you clean up the blade weight marking after doing dymanic balancing? Since I found that the MEK, Acetone or IPA is not able to clean up the marking on the ceramic coated turbine blade.
The uncoated surface is the root, and it is inserted in the disk. It is therefore invisible. The marking location is carefully chosen to be visible when the assembly is on the balance machine. When you want to swap a heavier blade with a lighter one, it's important to know which blades are light and which are heavy. It might interest you to watch my videos on turbine balancing. Putting that phrase into my channel page search box will find them for you.
Seeing that badge on the Turbine at the end made me Sad. The Packard Motor Company provided this country with an ENORMOUS contribution to the War Effort during WW2 that I find it more than Sad how this country just let that Company Die at the end of the War. The US Govt could have easily assisted them in staying in business, but Packard was basically ignored. Now that's just wrong...How disrespectful.
I don't know the story... but I think I agree. Made in America was the badge of quality for decades, but you don't see it very often. The Packard Merlin was the engine that arguably won WW2... There will be many arguments... none of which I wish to participate in...
AgentJayZ No Disagreement or Arguments from me Sir. Also very true about that "Made in USA" Badge...it used to be the World Standard...We live in strange times.
As a Quality Engineer who takes pride in providing quality product to my customers, it bothers me that when we manufacture these blades with the ceramic coating, we have to wear clean white cotton gloves and absolutely no part to part contact.. The specs alone on handling of these parts is crazy, and just to watch you slap 2 parts together and manhandle them with your bare hands is very unnerving.
There is a single stage turbine, which extracts sufficient energy from the combustion gas stream to provide the torque required to turn the 12 stage compressor. Turbine blades have a very different aerodynamic function than compressor blades, and their appearance illustrates this difference.
From the blade weights that I was able to catch in the video, the blades vary in weight by as much as 12 grams from each other....approximately a third of an ounce. I'm guessing that such difference isn't critical to the integrity of each blade under load, but explains why the need to balance the entire turbine disc. But what variable in the manufacturing or coating process would account for as much as a 3-4% differing finished weight of the blades? In a field driven by high precision, I'm surprised at such variability.
Now that is a question I don't really know the answer to. I would not be surprised if their was that much variability engineered into the production technique. But I don't know.
I would have to guess the 3-4% variability would come from the composition of the materials, depending on manufacturing techniques. the blades generally a made from a single ingot of metal, titanium and/or nickle tin alloys, these you say have a ceramic coating, which could also effect the weight, but specific impurities and imperfections on the alloy compositions could also explain the variance. It is most likely a combination of all three.
It's mostly to do with dimensional variation on the casting of the blades (not sure if these are cast, but similar story for wrought blades too). The alloy composition tends to be very strictly controlled, as does the mass of coatings. For a lost wax casting process you've got variation in wax pattern size, ceramic core size (though these look like solid blades) and ceramic shell size, all of which contribute to a varying size for the final casting. As Jangle points out, the difference does not affect the blade integrity :)
@MrPocketWatch1 What may look like a turbine that turns the opposite direction is actually the turbine inlet nozzle. It's fixed to the engine cases, and directs combustion gases at the best angle to efficiently drive the single stage of turbine blades in this engine. There are no engines that use a turbine spinning the opposite direction as a nozzle for a subsequent turbine.
I suppose... most sources call the turbine mounts firtee because they look like fir trees. The mounts on most compressor blades are called dovetail because, like the carpentry joint, they look like doves' tails. Calling a turbine blade a bucket, and calling the mount a dovetail is a bit like calling the rear gate on a pickup a hatchback... not totally wrong, but just different enough to raise a questioning eyebrow.
Actually, these were called buckets back then, as they were designed by steam turbine engineers. s3.amazonaws.com/dsg.files.app.content.prod/gereports/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/11203510/tumblr_inline_nsxs3jaQ031qzgziy_540.jpg
I'm surprised the weight varies so much blade to blade. I wouldn't expect more than a gram or two difference in high precision, identical and relatively small parts but there is more than 10g between some of them.
The high nickel alloy is quite heavy, and each blade is cast with a single use mould. There is no area on the blade where material van be removed to adjust the weight.
@@AgentJayZ Can't you drill a little 1mm diameter hole into the face that's facing you when you insert the blades at 2:44? (I mean hypothetically. I know you can't ignore the repair manual IRL)
В 46. Году. Слесарь ..КОВАЛЕВИЧ за 4 месяца. Вручную сделал. 52. Лопатки на турбину. Разница в весе составила. Миллиграмы. Ну о размерах и говорить нечего....
When that gentlmen tapped the ceramic of the turbine blade. I reacted like fingernails down a chaulk board. I build racing engines. Something like that would be all it takes to prevent me from putting the component into service. Yikes! 😳
I had the same reaction. The man has many years of experience with these coated blades, so I trust his knowledge. In all the years since this video was made, and with all the engines I have built using blades with this same coating, I have never smacked them together like this.
@@AgentJayZ I should add. I have no doubt the man knows exactly whats going on and is an expert in ceramic blades. That goes without saying. But for me. I have an underlying instinct if you will. To never chance traumatizing a highly engineered component. No matter how low the risk is. I would not tap a connecting rod on the side of a table before installing it in a formula 1 engine just like I wouldnt kink an elevator cable that was going to be put into service. Not because of any increased risk of failure so much as it is fundimetally wrong in practice and no matter how miniscule any potential risk exists. There is always some risk. We can't see all forms of stresses imparted. Atleast thats my opinion. But I meen no disrespect. The guy no doubt is super super knowledgable.
Awww, cute little blades. I assembled and serviced industrial turbo pumps for many years, some of the first stage blades were almost a meter long. the biggest was for a gas liquefaction plant on the Sakhalin Islands. It has an axial compressor feeding a radial compressor. The rotor of the axial compressor naked was just on 18 metric tons. Interesting is how the weight scatter on the blades is close to what these little ones are. I love the simple but efficient principles of turbines and how they sound. Thx for the uploads.
I have made those type of blades before. I worked in a machine shop that used electro chemical machining. It lets the finish and an shape form easy without stressing the metal
Hi AgentJayZ, i really love your channel ! i have a question that perplexes me for some time. some applications use this fir tree root with z-lock shrouds. i never understood how are they assembled. must they be assembled all together ?
The blades and turbine were balanced as an assembly before they were then numbered for position, taken apart... then the turbine was intalled in the engine, then the engine was turned horizontal, then the turbine blades were reinstalled as you see here.
It slows the heat transfer into the blade from the hot gases, but does not affect the heat transfer out of the blade into the disc, and out of the disc into the cooling air it is supplied with. By how much? ...don't know. At the same fired temperature, it greatly prolongs blade and disc life. At the same projected service life, you can increase fired temp by 50F or so, giving increased power output.
The J47 is a first generation axial flow turbojet. Low compression, low temps, low power... compared to todays engines. Air-cooled nozzles and turbine blades were developed along with higher compression more than a decade after this engine was designed.
There is no power turbine in a turbojet like the J47. And the J47 uses a single stage turbine, so this is the first, last, and only stage... The alloys have not changed a whole lot, but engines are firing hotter because of advancements in blade-cooling technology. Beyond the scope of my little channel, really.
@crazyrum It's a roll pin; it's a spring that is slightly larger than the hole you drive it into... and yes centrifugal force tends to push it into the hole.
OK, just wondering. I'm used to thinking of ceramics as very hard and brittle, although I admittedly don't know much of anything about them... Is it aluminum oxide?
Bee. Ee. Ay. You-tiful. Perfection. Each one a miniature aerofoil, an aircraft wing all its own. Actually, given its function, ‘glider wing’ might be more appropriate because *like* a glider wing, the turbine is reliant entirely upon the accelerated airflow incident upon it for lift; or in this case, rotation. Thanks JayZ for all the years of awesome content. And greater thanks for fielding and even *attempting* to answer *some* of the hundreds of questions sent your way. Actually, I’ll rephrase that, to be more accurate: translating so many inquiries into questions that are answerable………and answering them. Thank you.
watching such amazing video makes everything clear regarding imagine the flow of gas through stator's and rotor's blades,which is much better than reading ,thank you so much for really precipus video that let me imaging the gas flow through blades,and imagine changes of velocity and pressure of gas through rotor and stator blades
I worked machining these exact parts for g.e. pratt and whitney etc,the man hours to produce these things was huge,the tolerances on fit was at times less than .005 of a thousand.of an inch. Precision machining is no joke at this level.
I believe it is the weight of each blade, then they will have a software where they will put weight of each blade and then they can number them relative to that and then they will know in what order to put them in so they can have the best balance possible
That level of precision engineering is so satisfying. From the ceramic coated blades to the sound of instalment matched with perfect balancing it’s just pure bliss to the mechanically inclined individual.
@rickey5353 Blades made in 1953 out of high nickel refractory alloy. Coated with ceramic Thermal Barrier Coating by Avanti Aerospace in 2011.
They were made from some variant of Inconel?
@@nicholasmaude6906 yes. There are a bunch of names for nickel based super-alloys.
In my childhood I got a fan blade from a pilot from the legendary aerobatic team Frecce Tricolori during an airshow, because I was sitting in the cockpit of his aircraft and told him all about it and how it is functioning and how to fly this aircraft! He was simply so astonished and fascinated from my knowledge about it and I told him that I am addicted to aircraft's and I am very excited to be in this cockpit and I am twelve years old! He said I should go with him to his car and as we went on his car he opened a suitcase and picked the fan blade out and gave it to me and he said it is a gift for me because I am so interested and well educated in flying and on the attachment point to the engine was a little hole in it with a ring inside and since this day I carry this little fan blade on a dogs collar on my neck and I eat sometimes my ice-cream or yogurt with it! The pilot told me that this little thing was once inside the engine of one of his aircraft's right behind the hottest part of the engine and it was from a Pratt&Whittney engine! I love it so very much and I am so proud to have it! 😍😍😍😍😍Lovely greetings from Sarah 🙋💖😍✈️👍
Dear, AgentJayZ and MrPocketWatch. You guys are so close in your conversation when it comes to the next generation of tubine engines. I'll say no more because the patent is still in the works, and I don't have a Pending Patent, but you'll be pleasantly suprised at the simplitcity and also the complexity of things to come.
So well balanced that adding the miniscule weight of a single blade causes the entire assembly to rotate. Very cool stuff, makes me want to build a functional miniature gas turbine engine.
Turbine blades are things of beauty, I got a Harrier Pegasus engine turbine blade, it has pride of place on my mantelpiece.
Agreed. It is as if they are 'designed by nature'
You probably dont give a shit but does someone know of a method to log back into an Instagram account..?
I stupidly forgot the password. I love any tips you can give me.
@Jesse Steven instablaster ;)
@@acbulgin2 The more I look at turbine blades the more sense they make of velocity, fluid dynamics, power transfer etc. They seem ‘truth-telling’ somehow 🤔
@@acbulgin2 Wonderful observations. Your post is also crafted beautifully. Made my day, though it is night here.
When this engine was produced, the turbine blades were uncoated. We have applied a modern process to improve the heat tolerance of the blades.
I believe a J47 back in the day went for about 55,000.00US
It looks like thermal barrier coating based on zirconia
It's a thing of beauty to see a well made machine.
I love how informational this is!
That was one of the best videos I ever saw explaining how this thing really works! Thanks!
The ceramic coating to the turbine blades of this J47 is an example of "hot rodding". We have taken a modern thermal barrier coating, and have applied it to increase the performance of this old engine.
It was never a service bulletin because the technology was developed after the manufacturer stopped supporting the engine.
As far as I know, this is the only J47 ever given this upgrade in thermal protection.
Now I know how the blades fit into the main disk. Awesome. I am going to subscribe. Can’t wait for more video’s.
ohhh...gosh, that was my dream job, touching handling such a beautiful finest engineering product
Thank you for putting this things in internet super sir
@1metiz New? 2500.00 but you can't get these anymore.
To obtain one as a souvenir... their value is not measured in money, but in resoucefulness, courage, and a willingness to thrash back the boundaries of the great unknown.
An aviation scrap yard would sell them for the price of their mostly nickel content.
Those are just beautiful
"should i drop it on the floor?" lol
I like how he tapped them together to make themvring.
I love how terminology differs in the same industry from company to company. We call them dovetail slots, but I tend to agree with you Jay, they look like fir trees.
Dovetails look like dove tails, and they are used on some compressor blades. Firtrees look like Fir trees, and are almost always used on turbine blades, because they are a stronger joint.
I am surprised you don't know that they are two different things.
it was a good soundtrack. very nice
Ceramics have been able to withstand combustion temperatures of jet fuel since before humans wondered what that black stuff was that stuck to their feet while they were looking at the animals trapped in the pit full of it.
I feel it would be very interesting for an agentjz however covering reciprocal, rotary engines.
BEAUTIFUL! Engineering at it's best!!
Without internal cooling I don’t see why bother with getting YSZ on them other than to prevent oxidation if that’s a concern but then you could just get them bond coated and do just fine. Not sure what aftermarket cost difference looks like but with such thin blades the top 3/4 won’t even know the bottom is being cooled by contact with the ring/hub
Also the variance is somewhat on purpose to deal with harmonics. You don’t want every single blade to enter their intrinsic frequencies at once that would end .... poorly.
Edit : stop calling them ceramic blades , that’s a whole other thing being worked on with cmcs
You do not understand how the blades are cooled, so you don't see a point in a TBC. Don't you give me orders, buddy. Read the freaking description.
@@AgentJayZ I have proper modern blades sitting on my desk and a basic book on transport phenomena but never try to argue with “experience” on 70 YO tech I guess. My literally job is thermal testing these coatings and matls.
I get you’re a tech working on these all day and read plenty of literature but I sit and stare at thermal models for how to cool these things what sort of heat transfer they have etc. Nickel has incredibly bad heat transfer. The YSZ does reflect some IR and provides oxidation protection but if you’re not pumping air up the core last half of the blade barely knows the disc is there holding it from a heat transfer perspective so this blade isn’t “cooled” unless I sorely missed some sort of passages on them. Reflecting IR doesn’t provide cooling. It only reduces heat transfer.
made me cringe, watching those blades been tapped together !!
my first thought was (what an as***e)
probably the same guy sweeping the dust under the equipment.
@AgentJayZ So there is no locking mechanism such as thread? Does it expand when the temp goes up such that is stays in the position? Or they are hold in place just by centrifugal force? Thanks
Since this is an old video, I may not get an answer. Anyway, I'm assuming you numbered the blades because you wanted to keep the balance of the whole assembly. If those blades were recoated, wouldn't that make the numbering unnecessary? I would assume you'd have to balance the whole thing again since the blade weights would be different -- or would they?
+Mark - The turbine was removed from the engine, then de-bladed. The blades were sent out for TBC coating. The turbine disk was carefully cleaned for at least a day.
When the blades returned, they were weighed, and the weight printed on them. The blades were sorted to provide a reasonably even distribution of their weights.
The turbine was placed on the balance machine. The blades were installed without locks. The assembly was balanced by moving blades around, and the positions of the blades was recorded 1-2-3 in the disk locations 1-2-3.
The blades were removed and placed in storage.
The engine was then reassembled in the vertical position to facilitate alignment of the turbine shaft with its bearings and the connection to the compressor.
The engine was then placed in the horizontal position, the blades reinstalled in their recorded position ( this video), and locked into place.
All this is necessary because the turbine can't be balanced while it is in the engine, and it's easier to install the turbine when the blades are not in it.
AgentJayZ Now that I understand the sequence, makes sense. Thanks for the explanation -- and for all the videos. I worked on round motors; never got to the turbines, so it's nice to see the work.
Sabre? You should try and get work on a MiG-15 or 17. Beautiful planes that i know very little about internally. Would love to see them on here.
What else should I do...?
so they were made in 1953 and never used? Or made recently and modeled after the ones in 1953?
New old stock, made in 1953 and stored for decades.
AgentJayZ, So they had already used ceramic coating in 1953?
@@fagungfan No they were coated after they were unpacked from original packaging
¡¡¡Qué belleza de motor!!!
I have a question, what temperature do these blades withstand? I assume that if there's fuel burning without lack of oxygen, it would melt most materials, like a gas welder.
@honeybunchickens Yes. Good one.
I didn't know that Packard built turbojets. Did they make the blades?
I can see the pins going in, but what about coming out for repairs?
1:27 i fell the same way i think you did when i saw that XD
@Wonkabar007 picture?
Love the soundtrack ;)
2:37 You can hear the tensile strength.
4:34 I'm puzzled as to why there doesn't seem to be an impact mat in case something gets dropped.
Sort of the same reason delivery rooms don't have rubber floors, in case the doc drops the newborn. A large part of my job is being careful.
Will there be a video on installing pins?
He just post such video
I've ever seen how they balance the turbine blades in Solar Titan 130. But I wanna know who actually in GE frame balance blade formula ? Do you have any kind of reference ?
привет канадцы у СССР снова появилась турбина и она выдаёт 36 % кпд И держит уверенное 2 е место . И это ГТД 110 м .
wait what? Stored from 1952?
It would suck hard to drop blade 96, cause Murphy ;)
Hey, is the turbine stage impulse or reaction? Also, do you know any reasons why they would use a single stage of turbine to drive 12 compressor blades, other than weight savings?
Thanks
Nate Baker Turbine blades are combination of impulse and reaction.As for the single stage of turbine driving 12 stages of compressor it's because of the high torque that gets developed on the turbine rotor blades from the high velocity and temperature gas coming out of the combustion chamber. These rotor blades are rotating at about 2000 ft/sec.
@@harixav IDK if I should be amazed at the tech from the 50s/60s or if I should be unimpressed with the tech we have now? XD
That was a $20,000 box wasn't it?
You need to put the keepers in before the blades.
+Rex Bahr No keepers in this design.
Does it matter if you accidentally put every SINGLE blade in backwards?
About as much as putting your car in reverse in a traffic jam and flooring it. Only it would cost more to fix everything.
The lock pin slot is positioned so that it would not be possible to lock a blade in place backwards.
Plus, part of being a turbine engine technician is to check each and every blade in your hand to make sure you have it oriented correctly.
A bit like pistons in a car engine. Mechanics don't put them in upside down, do they?
Why don't they diamond coat them for even more erosion resistance ? Thanks gave you a thumbs up please return the favor
diamond dust that is
Diamond tends to burn at turbine temperatures, so not a great idea I'm afraid, in fact, anything above 500*C and it will lose its strength.
Sorry I think not my friend .
Yea, diamond protects from abrasion in low temp (it can even be layered using a technique called "vapor deposition", but being carbon, if heated in an oxygen rich environment it will burn just like a piece of coal.
Arturo Olvera
Not to worry, there's a good high temperature replacement for diamond, it's boron nitride, in its cubic form.
After diamond - it's the hardest material we know of.
If it's applied properly, any manual tools you coat with it (files, etc.) will last a lifetime. There's a 2013 paper on it, touting it as a "wonder material", as it retains its properties at well over 1000*K (which would be when diamond would burn), and due to diamond's decline in strength, it surpasses diamond at 500*C and above, so for high temperature applications - it's awesome.
How do you skim-cut the turbine wheel assembly to make it all concentric if you are installing blades on an installed disc?
There is no cutting, grinding or trimming of the blades or wheel.
Here I thought these blades were built into the "flywheel" I don't know what that's called.
What is the advantages of ceramic turbine blades in this case?
I have read that the use of ceramics allows for a much higher operating temperature of the turbine, thus increasing efficiency. However, seeing that the disk is made of metal, thus not having the same temperature stability, is temperature not the reason why ceramic blades are used in this case?
It protects the blades from transient temp spikes on startup, which these old turbojets are prone to do, and it lengthens the service life of the blades.
@@AgentJayZ I am guessing only the blades are suceptible to those heat spikes due to their thin geometry? Or are the heat spikes only occuring locally at the blades and not the disk?
Interesting none the less😃
Heat enters the blades from their contact with combustion gases. Heat leaves the blades through their contact with the disk, which is not exposed to the combustion heat.
If we put a resistor on the input, and don't change the output... we run cooler, and lower any spikes on the input side.
Did GE have Ceramic Blades in 1957? Or these are update blades?
How do the fasten the ceramic to the metal base? Cool
It's a metal blade w/ ceramic thermal barrier coating.
what about balancing the engine
The rotor is balanced as the next step.
Huh?? Still no captioned? Why not!!
How you guys balance this wheel
I would never want to operate a jet engine with ceramic blades! Those would shatter like glass and snap right off from the immense g-forces and wind pressure inside the engine!
+triton115 Ahem... they are the original blades, made of nickel alloy, with a ceramic thermal barrier coating applied to protect them from heat. You didn't get that from the video?
Really? I didn't know that. I thought the video was showing turbine blades that were solid ceramic.
+triton115 When you're going to criticize someone, it's usually a good idea to understand what the situation is.
A handy hint with my videos: read the description...
What do 96 of them cost new?
May I ask will you clean up the blade weight marking after doing dymanic balancing?
Since I found that the MEK, Acetone or IPA is not able to clean up the marking on the ceramic coated turbine blade.
No, we leave the marks on, because the rough surface of the blade is impossible to clean.
@@AgentJayZ Thanks for the reply.
In my case, I mark the weight and the position on the uncoated surface😂.
The uncoated surface is the root, and it is inserted in the disk. It is therefore invisible. The marking location is carefully chosen to be visible when the assembly is on the balance machine.
When you want to swap a heavier blade with a lighter one, it's important to know which blades are light and which are heavy.
It might interest you to watch my videos on turbine balancing.
Putting that phrase into my channel page search box will find them for you.
@@AgentJayZ Thankyou for the information.
I am also working in the aerospace industry. Dynamic balance of the turbine is my daily routine job😄.
How do the pins go in?
+HEATRACER24 The next video is called "Locking Blades"
i really want to learn mentainnace and overhauling of turbine,how can i get a chance to work with you?
Have a look at vids I made:
So you want to work on jets...
and
Another Way to Get There
also
"How can I do that ?"
Seeing that badge on the Turbine at the end made me Sad. The Packard Motor Company provided this country with an ENORMOUS contribution to the War Effort during WW2 that I find it more than Sad how this country just let that Company Die at the end of the War. The US Govt could have easily assisted them in staying in business, but Packard was basically ignored. Now that's just wrong...How disrespectful.
I don't know the story... but I think I agree. Made in America was the badge of quality for decades, but you don't see it very often. The Packard Merlin was the engine that arguably won WW2... There will be many arguments... none of which I wish to participate in...
AgentJayZ
No Disagreement or Arguments from me Sir. Also very true about that "Made in USA" Badge...it used to be the World Standard...We live in strange times.
good excellent
Bearings so smooth that the weight of a blade being added to one side makes it turn a bit.
Jack Bruce yup I was amazed by that
perpetual motion
Lol
I wonder what kind of bearings those are
Amazingly smooth
its kind of hypnotic how perfect blades fit
As a Quality Engineer who takes pride in providing quality product to my customers, it bothers me that when we manufacture these blades with the ceramic coating, we have to wear clean white cotton gloves and absolutely no part to part contact.. The specs alone on handling of these parts is crazy, and just to watch you slap 2 parts together and manhandle them with your bare hands is very unnerving.
Please note it was not me you had to watch. It's not a movie, and I do not direct the actions of others.
Thanks.
Worked on Rolls Wood group.. High standard... and I know exactly what you are saying.
We do our best tho..
Yeah, these guys aren't very bright. You can tell
There is a single stage turbine, which extracts sufficient energy from the combustion gas stream to provide the torque required to turn the 12 stage compressor.
Turbine blades have a very different aerodynamic function than compressor blades, and their appearance illustrates this difference.
Watching the blades get inserted was so satisfying.
Thanks for sparing me the comment. :)
Yeah, but no, really. What is that?
I came down to write the same thing.
From the blade weights that I was able to catch in the video, the blades vary in weight by as much as 12 grams from each other....approximately a third of an ounce. I'm guessing that such difference isn't critical to the integrity of each blade under load, but explains why the need to balance the entire turbine disc. But what variable in the manufacturing or coating process would account for as much as a 3-4% differing finished weight of the blades?
In a field driven by high precision, I'm surprised at such variability.
Now that is a question I don't really know the answer to. I would not be surprised if their was that much variability engineered into the production technique.
But I don't know.
AgentJayZ Thanks. I couldn't even begin to guess. I'd be very interested in hearing the thoughts from others. Grahamj9101?
I would have to guess the 3-4% variability would come from the composition of the materials, depending on manufacturing techniques. the blades generally a made from a single ingot of metal, titanium and/or nickle tin alloys, these you say have a ceramic coating, which could also effect the weight, but specific impurities and imperfections on the alloy compositions could also explain the variance. It is most likely a combination of all three.
It's mostly to do with dimensional variation on the casting of the blades (not sure if these are cast, but similar story for wrought blades too).
The alloy composition tends to be very strictly controlled, as does the mass of coatings.
For a lost wax casting process you've got variation in wax pattern size, ceramic core size (though these look like solid blades) and ceramic shell size, all of which contribute to a varying size for the final casting.
As Jangle points out, the difference does not affect the blade integrity :)
I wonder why they wouldnt just have a spot for balancing on the base or something then. Or if it's the blade itself's weight that's more critical?
@MrPocketWatch1 What may look like a turbine that turns the opposite direction is actually the turbine inlet nozzle. It's fixed to the engine cases, and directs combustion gases at the best angle to efficiently drive the single stage of turbine blades in this engine.
There are no engines that use a turbine spinning the opposite direction as a nozzle for a subsequent turbine.
@docbipe Aahh,.... I can show you some of the techniques used by jet people, but to learn all of them, you must become one of us...
Dare I ask what that set of new old stock blades cost before the ceramic treatment? After the ceramic treatment? Awesome work! :)
i buy that for a dollar!
Beautiful. I’m dreaming about that job 😍
I suppose... most sources call the turbine mounts firtee because they look like fir trees. The mounts on most compressor blades are called dovetail because, like the carpentry joint, they look like doves' tails.
Calling a turbine blade a bucket, and calling the mount a dovetail is a bit like calling the rear gate on a pickup a hatchback... not totally wrong, but just different enough to raise a questioning eyebrow.
Actually, these were called buckets back then, as they were designed by steam turbine engineers.
s3.amazonaws.com/dsg.files.app.content.prod/gereports/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/11203510/tumblr_inline_nsxs3jaQ031qzgziy_540.jpg
I'm surprised the weight varies so much blade to blade. I wouldn't expect more than a gram or two difference in high precision, identical and relatively small parts but there is more than 10g between some of them.
The high nickel alloy is quite heavy, and each blade is cast with a single use mould.
There is no area on the blade where material van be removed to adjust the weight.
sounds like a great field of research: Making a blade that is adjustable after being cast
@@AgentJayZ Can't you drill a little 1mm diameter hole into the face that's facing you when you insert the blades at 2:44? (I mean hypothetically. I know you can't ignore the repair manual IRL)
В 46. Году. Слесарь ..КОВАЛЕВИЧ за 4 месяца. Вручную сделал. 52. Лопатки на турбину. Разница в весе составила. Миллиграмы. Ну о размерах и говорить нечего....
When that gentlmen tapped the ceramic of the turbine blade. I reacted like fingernails down a chaulk board. I build racing engines. Something like that would be all it takes to prevent me from putting the component into service.
Yikes! 😳
I had the same reaction.
The man has many years of experience with these coated blades, so I trust his knowledge.
In all the years since this video was made, and with all the engines I have built using blades with this same coating, I have never smacked them together like this.
@@AgentJayZ I should add. I have no doubt the man knows exactly whats going on and is an expert in ceramic blades. That goes without saying. But for me. I have an underlying instinct if you will. To never chance traumatizing a highly engineered component. No matter how low the risk is. I would not tap a connecting rod on the side of a table before installing it in a formula 1 engine just like I wouldnt kink an elevator cable that was going to be put into service. Not because of any increased risk of failure so much as it is fundimetally wrong in practice and no matter how miniscule any potential risk exists. There is always some risk. We can't see all forms of stresses imparted.
Atleast thats my opinion. But I meen no disrespect. The guy no doubt is super super knowledgable.
Yea i cringed
@@mohanperformance.enginerd.1308 yeah. well. an x ray is in order
This channel rules! This is what I really want to see, not just compilations of the same recycled videos.
Awww, cute little blades. I assembled and serviced industrial turbo pumps for many years, some of the first stage blades were almost a meter long. the biggest was for a gas liquefaction plant on the Sakhalin Islands. It has an axial compressor feeding a radial compressor. The rotor of the axial compressor naked was just on 18 metric tons. Interesting is how the weight scatter on the blades is close to what these little ones are.
I love the simple but efficient principles of turbines and how they sound.
Thx for the uploads.
I'm looking for a turbine blade that contains platinum. Are they available for purchase? Thank you.
This is Porn to me !, i must seek treatment soon, NOOOO!, old school laugh (LOL)
I have made those type of blades before. I worked in a machine shop that used electro chemical machining. It lets the finish and an shape form easy without stressing the metal
Hi AgentJayZ, i really love your channel !
i have a question that perplexes me for some time. some applications use this fir tree root with z-lock shrouds. i never understood how are they assembled. must they be assembled all together ?
The blades and turbine were balanced as an assembly before they were then numbered for position, taken apart... then the turbine was intalled in the engine, then the engine was turned horizontal, then the turbine blades were reinstalled as you see here.
It slows the heat transfer into the blade from the hot gases, but does not affect the heat transfer out of the blade into the disc, and out of the disc into the cooling air it is supplied with.
By how much? ...don't know.
At the same fired temperature, it greatly prolongs blade and disc life.
At the same projected service life, you can increase fired temp by 50F or so, giving increased power output.
The J47 is a first generation axial flow turbojet. Low compression, low temps, low power... compared to todays engines. Air-cooled nozzles and turbine blades were developed along with higher compression more than a decade after this engine was designed.
There is no power turbine in a turbojet like the J47. And the J47 uses a single stage turbine, so this is the first, last, and only stage...
The alloys have not changed a whole lot, but engines are firing hotter because of advancements in blade-cooling technology.
Beyond the scope of my little channel, really.
OK, I've done the required five minutes of internet research, and I still don't know how I relate to a MrPocketWatch...
Please give me another clue.
@crazyrum It's a roll pin; it's a spring that is slightly larger than the hole you drive it into... and yes centrifugal force tends to push it into the hole.
1:26 Just curious, why is the guy tapping the blades together? Aren't you supposed to ever-so-carefully avoid such things?
To demonstrate how durable the ceramic coating really is, and to emphasize that the answer to your second question is no.
OK, just wondering. I'm used to thinking of ceramics as very hard and brittle, although I admittedly don't know much of anything about them... Is it aluminum oxide?
Bee. Ee. Ay. You-tiful. Perfection. Each one a miniature aerofoil, an aircraft wing all its own. Actually, given its function, ‘glider wing’ might be more appropriate because *like* a glider wing, the turbine is reliant entirely upon the accelerated airflow incident upon it for lift; or in this case, rotation.
Thanks JayZ for all the years of awesome content. And greater thanks for fielding and even *attempting* to answer *some* of the hundreds of questions sent your way. Actually, I’ll rephrase that, to be more accurate: translating so many inquiries into questions that are answerable………and answering them. Thank you.
watching such amazing video makes everything clear regarding imagine the flow of gas through stator's and rotor's blades,which is much better than reading ,thank you so much for really precipus video that let me imaging the gas flow through blades,and imagine changes of velocity and pressure of gas through rotor and stator blades
That was naughty banging 2 blades together
Those ceramic blades look so lovely. Design wise it gives me a bit of a bone... Hehe
were so lame lol, I have one too.
Do you spank to these vids?
@@jonshaffer5793 i wouldn't last
I worked machining these exact parts for g.e. pratt and whitney etc,the man hours to produce these things was huge,the tolerances on fit was at times less than .005 of a thousand.of an inch. Precision machining is no joke at this level.
Is that a YSZ (Yttrium Stabilized Zirconia) coating applied by EB-PVD? It looks like a good coating.
It's described to me as a ceramic thermal barrier coating. I don't have any further knowledge of it.
@crazyrum They are a high temp roll pin. You gently tap them into their mounting holes until they protrude into the slots in the base of the blades.
an educated guess that the numbers on the blades are masses in grams?
What written with the marker pen. I highly doubt that
I believe it is the weight of each blade, then they will have a software where they will put weight of each blade and then they can number them relative to that and then they will know in what order to put them in so they can have the best balance possible
All the blades weigh the same
Hubert Behrendt all of the blades way he same it would be ridiculous to put different weighted blades into a turbine
benjamin marshall they don’t
Don't know for sure... but I would guess it is just the way things go in production.
dear crazy old hippie guy... ... ... you're not making sense... ... ... maybe time for a weed break ?
Why are all blades mounted in the way that allows them to move a little and make this clicking sound? Is it clearance for heat expansion?
Have a look at a short video I made about your question, called Jet Engine Turbine Blade Noise... Or something like that.